The PCs have been chosen by their various churches to go to Abeir and essentially attempt to discover how to get faiths established in Abeir. The FRCS has little information about Abeir in this sense, but what it does say indicates that gods are not really worshipped there.
I've used this to make some of the following assumptions and raised some of the following questions:
1) There are precious few churches in Abeir and few worshippers of the gods. Despite 100 years passing, a great deal of those 100 years were spent (by the Faerunian faiths) getting their crap together in their own backyard and dealing with the Spellplague.
2) Because of this, there are few *clerics* in Abeir.
3) As with 3) above, there are also few *paladins* in Abeir. In fact the Divine power source is extremely thin on the ground.
4) Even rarer than paladins and clerics are Drow in Abeir. Without the Underdark, and with the Crown Wars occurring post-Sundering, there were no Drow on Abeir before the return and any drow that are there now, got there the -hard- way.
5) The reaction to establishing faiths in Abeir is going to be highly varied. There are of course places where open churches are pretty much never going to happen (because the dragons will come and wipe them off the face of the land if those churches actually tried to exist). What's more interesting to me, though, are what sort of reactions the non-Dragon-ruled lands will have to the concept of churches and gods.
6) Where do the souls of Aberians go when they die? Given that the gods (and the many mortal souls and mortals who have passed through there) were unaware of any Abeirian souls prior to the Return, it would seem to me that they are not of the False or the Faithless. Are they now amongst the ranks of the Faithless? If so, why?--these aren't people who knew about the gods and chose to be faithless; they're people who never had the chance to know about them. If not, why not? What is happening to the souls of the people of Abeir when they die?
7) Mention is made of several Primordials who may or may not exist outside of the five in the FRCS. At least one has worshippers/cultists. Does he have a place in the heavens where the souls of his worshippers go when they die? Do the others?
8) Sans faith, do Aberians have a lot of healing potions somewhere? Are the only folks who can raise the dead Wizards and others with Ritual Caster who've taken the clerical rituals?
9) What does the Religion skill mean to a native of Abeir?
I've got some of my own answers for these questions, but I think this is a pretty good juicy topic for conversation here.
About the Underdark though -- didn't Maztica have an Underdark? Maybe the continent swapped places, but the "foundation" is the same. So now Abeir will be subject to raids from below.
I suspect any nonworshiper souls would just be Faithless. The deities don't really split hairs on that sort of thing. But, they would want to try and make them not faithless. They probably have a nasty ghost problem in Abeir, or a crowded area of the Shadowfell.
Primordials don't really derive power from worshipers, and don't really give a damn about them in general, so I don't think there was any place waiting for them on the Primordials' home plane (which would be pretty much somewhere in the Elemental Chaos apparently).
I got the general impression that Abeirans were pretty magic-starved to begin with, and operated without the benefits of a Weave or a goddess of magic since the beginning. I doubt they have much tradition of raising dead or brewing potions of their own, party because of the dragon tyranny. The dragons themselves seem to have a good amount of magic though, turning themselves into liches and such.
I suspect any nonworshiper souls would just be Faithless. The deities don't really split hairs on that sort of thing. But, they would want to try and make them not faithless. They probably have a nasty ghost problem in Abeir, or a crowded area of the Shadowfell.
Primordials don't really derive power from worshipers, and don't really give a damn about them in general, so I don't think there was any place waiting for them on the Primordials' home plane (which would be pretty much somewhere in the Elemental Chaos apparently).
Well, as rules differed between the two planets, there is no way to say yes or no on the matter. I really don't see souls being handled in the same manner as on Toril though.
I got the general impression that Abeirans were pretty magic-starved to begin with, and operated without the benefits of a Weave or a goddess of magic since the beginning. I doubt they have much tradition of raising dead or brewing potions of their own, party because of the dragon tyranny. The dragons themselves seem to have a good amount of magic though, turning themselves into liches and such.
Much the same impression myself. As such, it makes a very ripe area for a holy conversion--especially with the primordial aspect.
6) Where do the souls of Aberians go when they die? Given that the gods (and the many mortal souls and mortals who have passed through there) were unaware of any Abeirian souls prior to the Return, it would seem to me that they are not of the False or the Faithless. Are they now amongst the ranks of the Faithless? If so, why?--these aren't people who knew about the gods and chose to be faithless; they're people who never had the chance to know about them. If not, why not? What is happening to the souls of the people of Abeir when they die?
-It is highly (and most) likely that the dead from all of Realmspace go to the Fugue Plane, where their own deities take them away, or where they are dealt with by Kelemvor, currently. As such, they'd travel the same path.
7) Mention is made of several Primordials who may or may not exist outside of the five in the FRCS. At least one has worshippers/cultists. Does he have a place in the heavens where the souls of his worshippers go when they die? Do the others?
-Grumbar, Akadi, Ubtao, and the other deities who are now Primordials all had Divine Realms when they were deities. Without any mentions of them not existing anymore, we should assume they still so. As such, worshipers would go there, if they chose to pick them up from the Fugue.
8) Sans faith, do Aberians have a lot of healing potions somewhere? Are the only folks who can raise the dead Wizards and others with Ritual Caster who've taken the clerical rituals?
-Druidic magic produces healing spells, so sure.
9) What does the Religion skill mean to a native of Abeir?
-The same thing it does to a native of Toril, of Garden, of Earth...
1) I would say, given the timeline, that with the fey present prior to -31000 DR, that elves would be known on Abeir (especially given the Eladrin->Fey link). However, their society may well be largely different: given their being cut off from the Seldarine, their culture would likely be highly changed from the one we currently think of as "elven"; additionally, there would be no drow as there were no Crown Wars.
2) The Weave isn't necessarily a Planar phenomenon as I imagine it, or rather, I would say that the separation of Abeir & Toril would not necessarily cut Abeir off from magic. The Weave does not permeate extraplanar areas entirely (the Avatar trilogy, for instance, after Mystra dies, does not show the same disruptions to magic or magic dead zones in the outer planes), and thus I think it would still exist.
3) The Maztican underdark: I have little access to data about this; but my thought on the matter is: It had a continent dropped on top of it. The odds of there being extant tunnels from it to the surface are unlikely; they would've been sealed off to whatever depths that the continent replaced. Where can I find more information about the Maztican underdark? What sort of creatures lived there?
4) From what I gather, with Abeir not exactly "part" of Realmspace (and the outer planes not necessarily--or knowingly--linking to whatever extradimensional pocket Abeir was sent to after the sundering), until 100 years ago the Abeirians didn't have links to the Fugue Plane (or any outer plane) from where they were. Are new souls from the dead in Abeir going there now? If so, why in particular? (We don't really know why they go there in the first place aside from "this is how it was set up in the cosmology for the Realms"). If there was a seperate afterlife for Abeir before the Sundering, what or where is it now? There would be extraplanar links at this point because the continent is on Toril.
5) The extant Realmslore primordials (Grumbar, etc) are depicted as having sided with the gods in the war that led to the sundering; this would to me indicate that those primordials would not only not be worshipped on Abeir but would likely be reviled. If Primordials granted any sort of spells to their worshippers, the cutting off of Abeir would prevent that (as those gods were left behind on Toril after the sundering).
But the question actually comes up now: do the Primordials who have cultists on Abeir have their own extraplanar realms anywhere? At least one, we know, is located on Returned Abeir.
Druidic magic simply didn't occur to me, and makes for some interesting belief structures.
As for paladins and clerics, ancestor worship also seems pretty interesting.
The whole thing fascinates me!
2) The Weave isn't necessarily a Planar phenomenon as I imagine it, or rather, I would say that the separation of Abeir & Toril would not necessarily cut Abeir off from magic. The Weave does not permeate extraplanar areas entirely (the Avatar trilogy, for instance, after Mystra dies, does not show the same disruptions to magic or magic dead zones in the outer planes), and thus I think it would still exist.
-No, the Weave is not a planar phenomenon, or else the entire Material Plane would be subject to Mystra's will. The Weave is contained only to Realmspace.
3) The Maztican underdark: I have little access to data about this; but my thought on the matter is: It had a continent dropped on top of it. The odds of there being extant tunnels from it to the surface are unlikely; they would've been sealed off to whatever depths that the continent replaced. Where can I find more information about the Maztican underdark? What sort of creatures lived there?
-The Maztica sourcebooks can be downloaded as .PDF files, for free, from HERE.
4) From what I gather, with Abeir not exactly "part" of Realmspace (and the outer planes not necessarily--or knowingly--linking to whatever extradimensional pocket Abeir was sent to after the sundering), until 100 years ago the Abeirians didn't have links to the Fugue Plane (or any outer plane) from where they were. Are new souls from the dead in Abeir going there now? If so, why in particular? (We don't really know why they go there in the first place aside from "this is how it was set up in the cosmology for the Realms"). If there was a seperate afterlife for Abeir before the Sundering, what or where is it now? There would be extraplanar links at this point because the continent is on Toril.
-"Abeir" would indeed have to be a planet, else it would not be "Toril's" twin. It is not mentioned in the Realmspace supplement simply because it did not exist when said book was written. Whether or not it was on another Plane is up in the air, but nothing specifically says it was. Landmasses that "returned" from "Abeir" to "Toril" could have simply been teleported over a distance on the Material Plane, as opposed to Transdimensional travel.
-Furthermore, "Abeir" and "Toril" were separated circa -31,000 DR, when the Sarrukh noticed that the stars had changed. This predates the Sundering by almost 10,000 years, if you want to use the -24,000 DR date, or a little over 10,000 years, if you want to use the (incorrect) -17,000 DR date. Either way, however, this had nothing to do with the Sundering.
As for the afterlife in 4e the gods no longer get EVERY worshipper. They are more picky now and only take those that are important to them. Most people (including the faithless) now pass beyond the planes after a while in Kelemvor's domain unless Kelemvor or another diety grabs the soul. Returned Abeir's souls likely follow this same pattern now with the bulk of them passing beyond since they are most likely not followers of Toril's gods. The punishment of the Faithless seems to be gone now with FR afterlife resembling 4e core, probably to reflect the decrease in the amount and capability to ressurect.
The Primordials could grant power to followers so making them clerics and paladins, though warlocks are more likely. The same with some of the dragon rulers being a new pact for warlocks.
I'd agree that there are no drow at least not in any established population. One offs could be possible though after 100 years a few isolated communities could crop up. Elves (or more properly Eladrin) could be there and it's possible that Faerie didn't 'drift away' from Abeir the way it did from Toril. Humans, halflings, and dwarves are all possible even if they weren't there when Abeir was created since planar import is always possible. Ao only seperated Abeir and Toril and their cosmologies to avoid the war, he didn't have any effect on other cosmologies from accessing Toril or Abeir on their own.
-No, the Weave is not a planar phenomenon, or else the entire Material Plane would be subject to Mystra's will. The Weave is contained only to Realmspace.
-"Abeir" would indeed have to be a planet, else it would not be "Toril's" twin. It is not mentioned in the Realmspace supplement simply because it did not exist when said book was written. Whether or not it was on another Plane is up in the air, but nothing specifically says it was. Landmasses that "returned" from "Abeir" to "Toril" could have simply been teleported over a distance on the Material Plane, as opposed to Transdimensional travel.
OK, my question/perspective:
We don't really have much of an idea where Abeir came from from the lore. My supposition--that Abeir was in an extraplanar pocket dimension out of Realmsspace--comes from the idea that with what we've been given, the gods essentially wanted Abeir gone, gone, GONE; if the extant primordials of the time were linked to the outer planes (by being within Realmsspace), they'd've been able to continually cause the gods problems. That's just conjecture, of course, but presuming that in my campaign I wanted to do it that way, the original question (that I am hoping for some creative input from people on) stands: where did their souls go? What were their beliefs about the afterlife? Does the link to wherever their souls went (the homes of their primordials, if they weren't on Abeir's material plane) still exist? Perhaps part of the reason for the Elemental Chaos being so...chaotic is that when Abeir returned, so did the (Abeirian) outer planes? When the two worlds stopped being intersected during the time of the initial joining, did Abeir return into Realmspace or did it go back to its own pocket dimension?
-Furthermore, "Abeir" and "Toril" were separated circa -31,000 DR, when the Sarrukh noticed that the stars had changed. This predates the Sundering by almost 10,000 years, if you want to use the -24,000 DR date, or a little over 10,000 years, if you want to use the (incorrect) -17,000 DR date. Either way, however, this had nothing to do with the Sundering.
Yeah, that's a terminology problem on my part; I know the Sundering is a different thing but "sundering" seems to be a cool word to use for the breaking apart of Abeir from Toril.
So I get the words conflated. There should be a single term for "when the two worlds were separated".I can find precious precious few references in the various Maztican sourcebooks regarding the Underdark. The desert dwarves "were a part of mainstream dwarven culture in the Realms until their subterranean (and suboceanic) lair
was cut off from the rest of dwarfdom by an undersea cataclysm some three centuries ago. After an epic underground journey to the west, they finally emerged onto the surface to find themselves amidst the harshest desert
imaginable. They made a home there, however, and have adapted
remarkably well to it." The Azuposi (subject of the City of Gold adventure/supplement) *may* have come through the Underdark, but are more likely from Kara Tur.
Are there any other sources or comments about the Maztican underdark outside of the Maztica sourcebooks?
We don't really have much of an idea where Abeir came from from the lore. My supposition--that Abeir was in an extraplanar pocket dimension out of Realmsspace--comes from the idea that with what we've been given, the gods essentially wanted Abeir gone, gone, GONE; if the extant primordials of the time were linked to the outer planes (by being within Realmsspace), they'd've been able to continually cause the gods problems. That's just conjecture, of course, but presuming that in my campaign I wanted to do it that way, the original question (that I am hoping for some creative input from people on) stands: where did their souls go? What were their beliefs about the afterlife? Does the link to wherever their souls went (the homes of their primordials, if they weren't on Abeir's material plane) still exist? Perhaps part of the reason for the Elemental Chaos being so...chaotic is that when Abeir returned, so did the (Abeirian) outer planes? When the two worlds stopped being intersected during the time of the initial joining, did Abeir return into Realmspace or did it go back to its own pocket dimension?
-If you're going on that notion, then it really depends on what kind of plane you send it to. A demiplane, like the Sildëyuir, for example, exists within Realmspace, and those who live within it are still subject to the laws that govern Realmspace. A whole new plane, like the Plane of Fire, the rules are different there. Alternatively, you could set it in a different Crystal Sphere, which would allow for the change of laws that govern things as well.
It could have existed in its own pocket dimension or (and IMO more likely) it's own prime plane.
My gut tells me Abeirian souls have always gone to the Fugue Plane as well, but after reading your (gamersgambit's) reasoning, I'm not so sure.
Maybe the afterlife for Abeirians consisted of souls drifting into the Abeirien elemental plane that was a "cosmological relative of Abeir" to the Torilian elemental planes, where the souls were absorbed into the elemental planes or perhaps gathered and herded about by the Dawn Titans.
When you consider the planar alignment, perhaps Abeir existed "below" the elemental planes, and so had no corresponding outer-planar framework to draw upon.
It could have existed in its own pocket dimension or (and IMO more likely) it's own prime plane.
Your gut and Brian R. James' brain are in accord.
Um, I didn't really mean that to sound as disgusting as it did.
Anyway, see his post (Posted - 04 Oct 2008 : 02:00:47) at this Candlekeep thread, which includes this line, "Old school D&D players can think of it as an Alternate Prime Material Plane."
Are there any other sources or comments about the Maztican underdark outside of the Maztica sourcebooks?
There is a bit in GHotR, and I 'think' its based on lore from earlier surces (I remember something about the Tlincallis burrowing their way to Faerûn in late 2e/early 3e lore).
However, it was retconned from the Tlincallis tunneling their way to Faerûn, to them using some sort of divine ritual and teleporting en mass there.
My own homebrew explanation to explain the conflicting lore - they were probably using existing tunnels to get to Faerûn, until the came across the massive cave-in caused by the Drow/Dwarf conflict, and then had to find an alternate route (the magical ritual) to complete their journey.
Anyhow, the paths between Faerûn and Maztica were cut-off back then, and are obviously no longer existing now. There was also at least one route through the Underdark from Kara-Tur, which was used by the God Monkey to bring some K-T refugees to a safe haven. He also used the Shadoworld (earlier editions 'Realm of the Dead', 4e's Shadowfel) to bring another group into Maztica (that's all canon).
Can't remember all the details, but it was all in some thread around here awhile ago.
Anyhow, I'm sure the K-T passageways were lost as well when the world changed.
I always assumed that Maztica's underdark was connected to Faerun's somehow - maybe only via portals - hence the late 2/3-3e tlincalli invasion beneath the lands of intrigue. Abeir wasn't "dropped on" Maztica, but switched with it. We have no idea whether or not that includes the tunnels. If it does, maybe that's a way for 4e DMs to send their PCs to explore non-returned abeir.
If the Earth is round, then the Underdark would have to be smaller in area than the corresponding lands above it; the inner layers of an onion are not as big as the outer ones. Therefore, places in the Underdark are closer to each other than the corresponding places on the surface. I wouldn't consider digging to be quick, but there would be less distance to cross underground than there would to travel over the surface.
If the Earth is round, then the Underdark would have to be smaller in area than the corresponding lands above it; the inner layers of an onion are not as big as the outer ones. Therefore, places in the Underdark are closer to each other than the corresponding places on the surface. I wouldn't consider digging to be quick, but there would be less distance to cross underground than there would to travel over the surface.
I know not this "earth" of which you speak, but i get the impression from the great 3E underdark book that Toril's crust is somewhat thicker than any such hypothetical world - otherwise the distances and the geography in that book don't make sense.
So why wont it see the light of day? :embarrass 18DELTA :P
If the Earth is round, then the Underdark would have to be smaller in area than the corresponding lands above it; the inner layers of an onion are not as big as the outer ones. Therefore, places in the Underdark are closer to each other than the corresponding places on the surface. I wouldn't consider digging to be quick, but there would be less distance to cross underground than there would to travel over the surface.
-Makes sense, in terms of pure distance. But, in actuality, remember, tunnels and caves twist and turn and end and begin randomly, so it could theoretically take someone three hours to walk from one place to another, with the distance of one mile.
Aside from natural hazards and meandering passages, there are also large areas that need to be 'gotten around' because of racial territories (and their agressive inhabitants) not to mention that everything is in three dimensions - just because two cities are near each oither on the map doesn't mean they are on the same level, or even connected!
-Tease.
Because I'm on strike.
Gelogically speaking only the igneous rocks could realistically be transported and "wedged" into Torils crust. This proces would disturb or crush all porous structures, such as the tunnels in the Underdark, and would create new fresh mountains as ripples are torn in the surrounding upperlandmass of Maztica. The Abeirian loose soil would likely be transformed and compacted, if it even survived the huge friction forces involved by the transplant of a new landmass onto another.
If this process is similar to the gruesome magical teleportation mishaps, where two objects who are placed into the same physical space are fused stuck, the return of Abeir could have happened a bit less disastrous. But it would be strange if no cavesystems had survived that process. Its more likely that the Abeirian Underdarks total area would be reduced by about a half.
Torils underdark doesn't get increasingly hot as on descends into the deeper underdark. This could be explained by two things. Torils underdark is not very deep and the planet of Torils crust is very thick, or Toril has no magma and no tectonics and subsequently no heat below (those areas with magma are portals to the plane of fire and deliver lava into Torils body). Abeiran's crust is probably similar. In this case the distance to cross oceans in the lower underdark might actualy be considerably less.
Visualising the supplanting of Abeir onto Toril is difficult.
-Pop goes the weasel. It's magic.
Magic the Gathering's storyline on Dominaria had the planar overlap of Rath onto its homeworld. Invasion is the closest thing to get a series of pictures of planes overlaying others. (And those Phyrexians ooze with flavour; especially Yawgmoth a planar general of unsurpassed skill).
I believe they dissolve and eat the rock as they pass-through, so as not to create massive amounts of debri lying around, or filling the tunnels behind them (rather convenient for us, eh?) ;)
There is a canon FR creature - I think it was called the Hortha (a rip-off of Star Trek's 'Horta') - that burrows throughout the Deep Realms, constantly creating new tunnel systems (this explains why all the ways haven't been discovered or closed-off yet, given the amount of sentient populations in the Realms Below).
I believe they dissolve and eat the rock as they pass-through, so as not to create massive amounts of debri lying around, or filling the tunnels behind them (rather convenient for us, eh?) ;)
-There is a non-Forgotten Realms specific monster in the Monster Manual, the Delver, that does, basically, the same thing.