Is the idea of Abeir & Toril two different world something new? I always thought Abeir-Toril was the world the Forgotten Realms existed in.
I've googled for answers & can't find any. If there is information already addressing this, I'm sorry if I missed it.
Also, I'm not trying to start a flame war. I'm reading & enjoying Swordmage, I'm simply curious.
Is the idea of Abeir & Toril two different world something new?
Yes.
I always thought Abeir-Toril was the world the Forgotten Realms existed in.
It was--now it's been changed. For the record, I don't care for it, and neither do a lot of other Realms fans.
Try the FR 4E forums above us a bit. Someone there may know more.
Not many FR fans here like the idea of it.
And elsewhere. And nowhere did I make assertions about the "silent majority" (about which you would have no more knowledge than I do, despite your "wink").
I certainly am not trying to fan the flames.
Of course not.
As I said, though, Abeir as a seperate world is a new thing, and a retcon (though some might try to argue that particular point).The idea is a retcon though. Even though they could get away with it by saying it happened in pre-history and past accounts were erased or manipulated by the gods.
The wink was me just trying not be a jerk while I said that many FR fans on these forums do not like the idea.
You failed.
Mine is the only opinion that matters (to me anyway) and I say... whatever.
Agreed. I did want to point out that I wasn't the only one who felt the way I did, but perhaps I should have kept my mouth shut.
I don't think it matters that much that original lore was retconned. After all, it concerns ancient times. You can always say that what we used to know was wrong, based on misinterpreted signs and false legends (aka lies). Annoying, perhaps, but it is not necessarily bad.
I do think it is a pity that the whole thing is basically tossed over the wall, without a lead-in. They could have made some nice epic adventures leading up to the 'reunion'. Budget issues, I guess, but still, a miss.
We'll have to see what Lost Abeir becomes like. It's still a bit early to say we will or will not like it.
I don't think it matters that much that original lore was retconned. After all, it concerns ancient times. You can always say that what we used to know was wrong, based on misinterpreted signs and false legends (aka lies).
-3e information is presented in the omniscient 3rd party viewpoint, meaning that it is never wrong (retcons not withstanding) and it does not lie. It simply presents facts- all the fact- as is.
-That said, and no pun intended, Abeir has grown on me, slightly. Not it's present, but it's past.
-3e information is presented in the omniscient 3rd party viewpoint, meaning that it is never wrong (retcons not withstanding) and it does not lie. It simply presents facts- all the fact- as is.
Indeed. You could say "It was all a lie", but that's a cheap cop-out.
-That said, and no pun intended, Abeir has grown on me, slightly. Not it's present, but it's past.
Okay, you have to tell me all about this now.
Indeed. You could say "It was all a lie", but that's a cheap cop-out.
-Well, with a Retcon, as much of the 4e changes are going to be, they don't even need to say "It was all a lie". They say, "It was always this way", and that's that.
Okay, you have to tell me all about this now.
:P
-With all of this talk about it, and correcting people's misconceptions and answering their questions about it, the concept of a "primordial" Abeir-Toril with slimy oozes and tentacles, and all of that kind of stuff interesting. And, it kinda fits, in a way. Like I said, though, I don't like the concept of 'Abeir' having been shunted away as a new demiplane/plane/planet, or it's "reintegration" into the setting, for the sake of changing things.
-Well, with a Retcon, as much of the 4e changes are going to be, they don't even need to say "It was all a lie". They say, "It was always this way", and that's that.
And that can also be a cheap cop-out (IMO, anyway).
:P
-With all of this talk about it, and correcting people's misconceptions and answering their questions about it, the concept of a "primordial" Abeir-Toril with slimy oozes and tentacles, and all of that kind of stuff interesting. And, it kinda fits, in a way. Like I said, though, I don't like the concept of 'Abeir' having been shunted away as a new demiplane/plane/planet, or it's "reintegration" into the setting, for the sake of changing things.
I see, thanks for explaining.
And that can also be a cheap cop-out (IMO, anyway).
-They're both as bad as each other. When there is a change, even if it is a change I don't like, I want explanations!
I see, thanks for explaining.
-Yup.
-3e information is presented in the omniscient 3rd party viewpoint, meaning that it is never wrong (retcons not withstanding) and it does not lie. It simply presents facts- all the fact- as is.
That is actually a matter of view.
I have written scenarios in which I deliberately misrepresented (or omitted) some 'facts' because I didn't wish to spoil the plot for DMs that would wish to play the sequel scenario.
You can choose to view former informaton in that light: it was represented 'wrong', but at the time we didn't really need to know the actual 'truth' (regardless of whether that was the intention at the time).
That's how I will treat old lore - as view of a world that didn''t know any better'. It makes it easier to work with the discrepancy.
-With all of this talk about it, and correcting people's misconceptions and answering their questions about it, the concept of a "primordial" Abeir-Toril with slimy oozes and tentacles, and all of that kind of stuff interesting. And, it kinda fits, in a way. Like I said, though, I don't like the concept of 'Abeir' having been shunted away as a new demiplane/plane/planet, or it's "reintegration" into the setting, for the sake of changing things.
Okay, I hate to ask, mostly because I'm afraid the answer will make me cringe a little, but I'm sure I've missed a designer announcement here and there. This 'Abeir' that's brought us the new dragonperson lands for 4E, have they said if Abeir's on the opposite side of the sun, or if it went into and out of a demiplane, or if it was mostly destroyed in the merging, or ? Where did it come from, and where did it go, after the Spellplague did its thing? Have they given more details on this?
That is actually a matter of view.
-No, no it's not. 3e sourcebooks present information in an entirely omniscient point of view, that has no alterior motives, does not lie, and cannot be wrong (again, Retcons not withstanding).
I have written scenarios in which I deliberately misrepresented (or omitted) some 'facts' because I didn't wish to spoil the plot for DMs that would wish to play the sequel scenario.
You can choose to view former informaton in that light: it was represented 'wrong', but at the time we didn't really need to know the actual 'truth' (regardless of whether that was the intention at the time).
That's how I will treat old lore - as view of a world that didn''t know any better'. It makes it easier to work with the discrepancy.
-In doing that, you did not present the information as an entire omniscient, unbiased storyteller, like the 3e Forgotten Realms "narrator" is. You were omniscient, but you were biased, whereas the 3e Forgotten Realms "narrator" isn't.
Okay, I hate to ask, mostly because I'm afraid the answer will make me cringe a little, but I'm sure I've missed a designer announcement here and there. This 'Abeir' that's brought us the new dragonperson lands for 4E, have they said if Abeir's on the opposite side of the sun, or if it went into and out of a demiplane, or if it was mostly destroyed in the merging, or ? Where did it come from, and where did it go, after the Spellplague did its thing? Have they given more details on this?
-None of those questions have been answered. If you haven't already done so, please read the link to the 'Abeir' thread above.
-I think I will create an 'Official Abeir Thread', now. ;)
Okay, I hate to ask, mostly because I'm afraid the answer will make me cringe a little, but I'm sure I've missed a designer announcement here and there. This 'Abeir' that's brought us the new dragonperson lands for 4E, have they said if Abeir's on the opposite side of the sun, or if it went into and out of a demiplane, or if it was mostly destroyed in the merging, or ? Where did it come from, and where did it go, after the Spellplague did its thing? Have they given more details on this?
I have no idea per say of what they are up to but I am thinking they are trying the "Lord British" concept of Fractured realities which is also mention in Excalibur 25000AD as dimensional or time/space realignments
In Ultima 7,Part 2, as a reference point you go through a magical Gate that leads to lands originally thought destroyed by a Magical Disaster, but instead it was taken to it's own "plane of existence"
Maybe the Forgotten Realms likewise fractured into 2 realities taking all of the inhabitance of "lost lands" with it and those understanding what happened when they went adventuring in their new "plane of existence" which now have "Misty Boarders" that either are impenetrable, or lapse around, or go off into a "greyness" labeled their new world just Abeir...as a joke
Dimensional Time/Space shifts also reak havok of "magic" because, as mentioned in Excalibur 25000AD Magic flows into any given reality via the next highest Dimension of any given reality in it's natural state so a 3 dimensional reality recieves magic from the 4th and a 4th dimensional reality recives magic from the 5th...assuming there is no "God of Magic" that changes such rules. With nobody governing Magic, it can appear in previously non magical worlds on a dimensional expansion giving rise to natural born sorcerers and a world can go non-magical on a dimensional collapse leaving Mages and Sorcerers suddenly powerless. The planes of existance naturally exopand and collapse though the "powers that be" can stabilize such flucuations in their realities
Because the Weave is Collapsing with Magic as it is know going erratic along with the sudden appearance of lands that were lost in Ancient times...there is a good chance a time/space/dimesion relaspe has occured in the new storyline. Mayhaps the death of Mystra not only collapses the Weave that she is and maintains but all this time she was holding the World in a "expansion" to stablize magic at the cost of missing lands lost in the dimensional Expansion...to minimize the stress of giving magic to those extra lands perhaps?