-Now, as to what 'Abeir' is:
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-'Abeir' is some kind of continent/landmass/moon/planet/demiplane/plane that, in the past, somehow "latched" on to 'Toril', joining the two as 'Abeir-Toril'. The denizens of 'Abeir', Aberrations, including the dreaded 'Aboleth Soverignty', attempted to colonize 'Toril' during this time. At some point, -31,000 DR, a group of deities pooled together and "flung" 'Abeir' away. What exactly this entails, we don't know yet. Now, concerning the Spellplague, the continent of Maztica was teleported away, and switched places with a landmass on 'Abeir'. Now, Maztica is in 'Abeir', and a landmass that was on 'Abeir' is where Maztica once was. Other plots of land on Faerûn, and presumably, on Osse, Anchorome, Kara-Tur and Zakhara, have also swapped places with landmasses on 'Abeir'.
But... i always thought Abeir-Toril meant Cradle of Life or something and was the whole planet. Now i'm all confused.
-Yes. Originally, 'Abeir' was the name of Jeff Grubbs own campaign, that he tacked on to 'Toril' to make Abeir-Toril the first entry in the Cyclopedia of the Realms. It means 'Cradle of Life' in a long forgotten language.
-This has since been retconned to include the story I summed up above.
But... i always thought Abeir-Toril meant Cradle of Life or something and was the whole planet.
That's what it was supposed to be, until recently.
I'm still trying to figure out exactly what Abeir is... I wonder if the guys in charge are even sure? In that last Podcast, it was called a 'seperate place', areas of which exchange places with regions on Toril, and then in another part, Rich specifically calls it a continent, and says that Abeir will be to the west across the sea.
So which is it? If Abeir is just a 'lost continent', then shouldn't Faerûn's 'missing regions' (like Unther and Sespech) be located over there, where Maztica used to be?
That has to be one of the most confusing and inconsistent pieces of lore every presented to us.
So, does this all mean that the Forgotten Gealms is now merging with Jeff Grubb's home campaign, and if so, are they going to be paying him for that (since the idea of Abeir being a seperate planet is his, after all)?
-I doubt it. He is no longer affiliated with the company, and I doubt that the elements of 'Abeir' are lifted from his home campaign. Only the name itself, which became TSR/WotC property upon being published and all. Furthermore, from what we know of 'Abeir', it "smells" of a different persona who has influenced the Forgotten Realms over the years.
I'm still trying to figure out exactly what Abeir is... I wonder if the guys in charge are even sure? In that last Podcast, it was called a 'seperate place', areas of which exchange places with regions on Toril, and then in another part, Rich specifically calls it a continent, and says that Abeir will be to the west across the sea.
So which is it? If Abeir is just a 'lost continent', then shouldn't Faerûn's 'missing regions' (like Unther and Sespech) be located over there, where Maztica used to be?
-As I stated before, with some bolds for emphasis:
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-'Abeir' is some kind of continent/landmass/moon/planet/demiplane/plane that, in the past, somehow "latched" on to 'Toril', joining the two as 'Abeir-Toril'. The denizens of 'Abeir', Aberrations, including the dreaded 'Aboleth Soverignty', attempted to colonize 'Toril' during this time. At some point, -31,000 DR, a group of deities pooled together and "flung" 'Abeir' away. What exactly this entails, we don't know yet. Now, concerning the Spellplague, the continent of Maztica was teleported away, and switched places with a landmass on 'Abeir'. Now, Maztica is in 'Abeir', and a landmass that was on 'Abeir' is where Maztica once was.
-I doubt it. He is no longer affiliated with the company, and I doubt that the elements of 'Abeir' are lifted from his home campaign. Only the name itself, which became TSR/WotC property upon being published and all.
I was being fecetious. :P
But Abeir - as a world - does belong to Jeff Grub, even if the word was given to TSR. If he really wanted to be a pr__k, he could definately get some money out of them. If he took it to court to prove the world of Abeir was his Intellectual property, he would most likely loose. However, he could tie WotC up in court for a couple of years, during which time he could get a court-order forbidding them to release anything on Abeir until the matter was settled. Rather then put off everything they worked on for the past two years, they'd probably just settle out-of-court for a few grand just to avoid delays (even thought they'd be in the right).
I used to see this kind of thing all the time when I worked for HD - people would come up with ridiculous law suits, and HD would just offer them a handful of money to go away, because their legal fees would amount to more. You just gotta love our idiotic legal system.
-Furthermore, from what we know of 'Abeir', it "smells" of a different persona who has influenced the Forgotten Realms over the years.
So, now we have a new dating system in FR?
Everything that comes before-31,000 DR will be known as "BC". So, -35,000 DR is really 4000 BC. :P
-continent/landmass/moon/planet/demiplane/plane...
Yeah... thats really 'pinning it down'.
You forgot psuedo-natural, para-elemental transitive Plane.
I was being fecetious. :P
-Feces? Yuck. ;)
But Abeir - as a world - does belong to Jeff Grub, even if the word was given to TSR.
-The 'Abeir' that constitutes his personal game, yes, that belongs to him. The 'Abeir' that consitutes what is coming, with the Aboleth and Tymanther, and all of that other stuff, no. WotC can use the name 'Abeir' as they want. If they begin using the name 'Abeir' and begin using elements of his own game without his permission, then he has a leg to stand on. Otherwise, no.
You just gotta love our idiotic legal system.
-I do.
So, now we have a new dating system in FR?
Everything that comes before-31,000 DR will be known as "BC". So, -35,000 DR is really 4000 BC. :P
-I'm not getting it...But, that said, there really isn't very much actually published before -31,000.
Yeah... thats really 'pinning it down'.
-Well, we know it's not a turtle. But, hey, give me a break. :P
You forgot psuedo-natural, para-elemental transitive Plane.
-That would fall under the heading of 'plane'. ;)
-I'm not getting it...But, that said, there really isn't very much actually published before -31,000.
BC = Bruce Cordell. ;)
And I know Jeff Grubb wouldn't have a leg to stand on, but my point was that you really don't need one in our stupid system. If you cost a company 'time', then it will most likely just try to pay you off, even if its in the right. Lawyers charge by the hour, and they are VER expensive; corporate Lawyers even moreso.
It's often just cheaper to settle.
Home Depot does it it at least once a day....
BC = Bruce Cordell. ;)
I got that.
Sometimes LK can be a little slow on the 'uptake'. ;)
You would think that nothing would get by an Uber-Genius, but I suppose having your IQ split amongst 3 pieces can have that effect. :P
BC = Bruce Cordell. ;)
-Oh...oh...
And I know Jeff Grubb wouldn't have a leg to stand on, but my point was that you really don't need one in our stupid system. If you cost a company 'time', then it will most likely just try to pay you off, even if its in the right. Lawyers charge by the hour, and they are VER expensive; corporate Lawyers even moreso.
It's often just cheaper to settle.
Home Depot does it it at least once a day....
-Is he even alive anymore? What does he do nowadays, I wonder...I'm sure someone will come by and elaborate.
You would think that nothing would get by an Uber-Genius, but I suppose having your IQ split amongst 3 pieces can have that effect. :P
-Don't say that, MT. Don't use that word in my presence, unless you are using it correctly...I will do what I am doing now...
And think it was used in the correct context there. Zanan could help.
-Is he even alive anymore? What does he do nowadays, I wonder...I'm sure someone will come by and elaborate.
I think the Hasbro Ninjas got to him. ;)
-Don't say that, MT. Don't use that word in my presence, unless you are using it correctly...I will do what I am doing now...
Not understanding you here... are you really offended by that word?
What would be the correct useage?
And what are you "doing now"?
I'm not a lawyer, but anyone can use the name 'Abeir' unless it's trademarked.
No doubt how crass the cant use of 'über' is.
I think the Hasbro Ninjas got to him. ;)
Jeff Grubb's blog
-Ah, see, he is still alive.
Not understanding you here... are you really offended by that word?
-When it's use improperly like that, yes.
What would be the correct useage?
-Look it up.
And what are you "doing now"?
-Type yelling at you.
It's both uber-lisciious and Uber-tastic!!! :D
Uber is just German for 'Super'... whats wrong with that?
I think the more you use it, the more Uber-cool you become.
Or would you prefer me walking around using 'Roxxrz'? ;)
Uber is just German for 'Super'... whats wrong with that?
-There's the problem. That's not what it means. As I said, look it up.
Or would you prefer me walking around using 'Roxxrz'? ;)
-Yes.
So there. ;)
-Before anyone says anything, have you read the novel Stardeep? If not, read it.
Well, I almost finished it at the bookstore, but then my mom dragged me away and the next time I went back, someone had bought it.
Bah, uber is so outdated now. 1337 is so much better:D
18D:P
I believe Toril was the original name of Jeff Grubb's home setting. Abeir was just a word he made up to prefix Toril so the entry came up first in the encyclopedia that came with the first boxed set so the Toril entry wouldn't get lost at the back of the book.
-Yes, we've established that. ;)
Well, I almost finished it at the bookstore, but then my mom dragged me away and the next time I went back, someone had bought it.
-I'd recommend that, but at the same time, I wouldn't. For today's day and age, it's "required reading", but it's not going to be fully enjoyable. But, that's just my take on it. Maybe you'd like it.
-I'd recommend that, but at the same time, I wouldn't. For today's day and age, it's "required reading", but it's not going to be fully enjoyable. But, that's just my take on it. Maybe you'd like it.
Like you, I read FR books purely for the plot and some of the information. So it woudn't take 1/10th the time it would for me to read a classic of the same length. The fact that FR novels are usually page turners as well helps.
Like you, I read FR books purely for the plot and some of the information.
-Then it'll be a chore, then. ;)
-Then it'll be a chore, then. ;)
Actually, it is sort of, except its an enjoyable chore. After all, FR novels aren't known for their great insight and in-depth philosophies.
Actually, it is sort of, except its an enjoyable chore.
-For Stardeep, not really. It really was a bother to finish, and I almost put it down a good three or four times, because I didn't care about any of the characters in the novel, the story itself was very weak, and it had so many elements that have been up until now elements that weren't very "Realmsian" at all.
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-In Swordmage, Thar has some Abeir "merged" with it. It even mentions the Claws of Starmantle which is some Abeir "merged" with the harbor of Starmantle
Show-In Swordmage, Thar has some Abeir "merged" with it. It even mentions the Claws of Starmantle which is some Abeir "merged" with the harbor of Starmantle
-So, uh, does that mean there are Aboleth and such floating around in the harbor, now?Can you elaborate?
-No the landscape is different.
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One of the Cities in the Moonsea has a piece of Abeir floating over it.
I'm still going to give the novel a chance, though. As a story, anyway (I'm not saying I accept these changes by any means).
-WTF? This is like pulling teeth. And, Delta, what exactly would that entail? Unless, of course, the book simply states that, and that's that.
-Really its just background details. Some of the places they go through are well a little different. Its not much. Really cosmetic. Read the book then you will understand. It is really a good story.:D
18D
-Really its just background details. Some of the places they go through are well a little different. Its not much. Really cosmetic. Read the book then you will understand. It is really a good story.:D
18D
-Different? As in, how so? What does 'Abeir' being on 'Toril' entail?
I wonder if abeir isnt just a mispronounciation of eberron.. thus bringing the two worlds togther..
-What, 'Abeir'? People have joked around, saying 'Abeirron', before, yes. But, kidding aside, the word 'Abeir' does predate 'Eberron', and, thus far, 'Abeir' only resembles some of the more...weird places in Eberron.
-What, 'Abeir'? People have joked around, saying 'Abeirron', before, yes. But, kidding aside, the word 'Abeir' does predate 'Eberron', and, thus far, 'Abeir' only resembles some of the more...weird places in Eberron.
When did that ever stop a retcon? ;)
We can just hope they wont do anything that cheesy... but hope is all we have too.
When did that ever stop a retcon? ;)
-Retcon is unstoppable and all powerful.
-Different? As in, how so? What does 'Abeir' being on 'Toril' entail?
-Some places the land is different(colors/shapes). I really can not explain it right now. I am still trying to grasp what happened.
18D
-Some places the land is different(colors/shapes). I really can not explain it right now. I am still trying to grasp what happened.
18D
-So, that kinda entails, right now, you know, blue grass, pink muchrooms that are overly large, green clouds, and things to that effect.
I figure they will give rough detailing of the other continents that previously were left out of other editions. This is fine by me especially if it is just a rough explaination that is left to the DM to expand upon. I never understand why those areas were never explored by "any" being on Faerun in 30k years.
I never understand why those areas were never explored by "any" being on Faerun in 30k years.
Who says they weren't?
Maztica was subsumed by part of Abeir. Oh, The Horror!
-Yup. And, not just parts of it, as is the case with Faerûn. All of it. Because, according to Rich Baker, Maztica "tied the hands" of DMs. He said it, not me. I don't know, either.
I never understand why those areas were never explored by "any" being on Faerun in 30k years.
-Who said they weren't? Everything we know about Faerûn isn't everything that actually happened on Faerûn. Rather, actually, Abeir-Toril. Especially with Spelljamming as an existent mode of transportation.
-Yup. And, not just parts of it, as is the case with Faerûn. All of it. Because, according to Rich Baker, Maztica "tied the hands" of DMs. He said it, not me. I don't know, either.
I still fail to see why Maztica had to go. I know I'm one of the few who liked it and used it, but still, an ENTIRE CONTINENT?
I still fail to see why Maztica had to go. I know I'm one of the few who liked it and used it, but still, an ENTIRE CONTINENT?
Guess too many went ther with wands of fireballs to extend their rule as slaveowners :D
Working the aztlans to death in gold mines, then animating the corpses to continue the work. Death is no excuse for slacking.. damnit..
I still fail to see why Maztica had to go. I know I'm one of the few who liked it and used it, but still, an ENTIRE CONTINENT?
-Field the question to him, not me. His reasoning was that people who didn't like Mesoamerican themes would not be able to utilize Maztica. Doesn't sound like good logic to me, but, whatever.
-I know I didn't particularly like Maztica. But, as I said in regard to what he said, we got one setting stood out from the rest of Faerûn and was heavy-handed in it's introduction for another setting stood out from the rest of Faerûn and was heavy-handed in it's introduction. Go figure.
-I know I didn't particularly like Maztica. But, as I said in regard to what he said, we got one setting stood out from the rest of Faerûn and was heavy-handed in it's introduction for another setting stood out from the rest of Faerûn and was heavy-handed in it's introduction. Go figure.
I thought that comment was spot-on.;)
All I wanted to see was a paragraph describing each place and giveing a quick reason why folks don't travel there much.
All I wanted to see was a paragraph describing each place and giveing a quick reason why folks don't travel there much.
-Older civilizations explored many of these places. But, obviously, as they are older, they aren't around to tell people of their exploration anymore! For example, I believe that there was a Netherese enclave that was "friendly" so to speak with the Shou, and had visited there. But, like what happened when the Roman Empire fell, a lot of knowledge disappeared when these larger empires and kingdoms fell. So, things had to be "rediscovered", so to speak.
-Older civilizations explored many of these places. But, obviously, as they are older, they aren't around to tell people of their exploration anymore! For example, I believe that there was a Netherese enclave that was "friendly" so to speak with the Shou, and had visited there. But, like what happened when the Roman Empire fell, a lot of knowledge disappeared when these larger empires and kingdoms fell. So, things had to be "rediscovered", so to speak.
This is not Eberron and people on Faerun did not rediscover high level magic. With the thousands of people living on Faerun with even the last thousand years I am sure at least one person would make a successful trip and record it. I would think given five thousand years more people would have made the trek and more recordings would be out there. There are none.
Unless there is some reason for it like all those areas were blocked by magical means.
This is not Eberron and people on Faerun did not rediscover high level magic. With the thousands of people living on Faerun with even the last thousand years I am sure at least one person would make a successful trip and record it. I would think given five thousand years more people would have made the trek and more recordings would be out there. There are none.
Unless there is some reason for it like all those areas were blocked by magical means.
-Read what I said again, because it is obvious that you misinterpreted what I said. It had nothing to do with the casting of True Dweomers, as you seem to have interpreted it as.
Again you cannot tell me that within the last 100 years that there have been no successful attempts to travel to those places? I am sure the magical means has always been there.
Anyway it appears that some ofwhat has been bothering me over the years will be resolved when they explain what is on those areas and perhaps they give us a reason as to why no record of the people and places of those regions has ever surfaced.
There are not many civilizations that are really "Lost" in FR though. The Shades are basically part of the Nethril Civilization. Then ya got Deep Imskar as well. Perhaps they have the knowledge and do not want anyone to know.
-Netheril is also a bad example, since each enclave was, more or less, was self-governed by an Arcanist. The Shade enclave, for example, knew things that the enclave of Undrentide didn't. And, so on.
-But, there were plenty of other empires and kingdoms, asides for the "Big Trio", of Netheril, Imaskar, and Jhaamdath. Off the top of my head, I can think of Athalantar (Elminster's home), various Elven settlements...
Again you cannot tell me that within the last 100 years that there have been no successful attempts to travel to those places? I am sure the magical means has always been there.
Anyway it appears that some ofwhat has been bothering me over the years will be resolved when they explain what is on those areas and perhaps they give us a reason as to why no record of the people and places of those regions has ever surfaced.
-No one said that. Again, who said they weren't? We just know that the current Realms, for the most part, don't know much about them, which doesn't translate into nobody knowing about them. The Vikings knew about the existence of North America before the Spanish. The Vikings, more or less, became defunct, so to speak, and the knowledge was lost. Then Colombus came, and the knowledge was (re)discovered.
My whole point is I wanted to see info on the areas. Since they left the areas out it made the world incomplete. At leaast this is how I felt. Those areas could be whole empires with magic that rivaled Faerun's and if that was the case there may have been conflict over the years but we don't know because they never covered it. I am sure now those areas will be infested with Abeir. We shall se what happens in June.
It was always there but information of it was lost due to the roll of the years?
-What, Maztica? Yes, Maztica has always been there, ever since the Sundering altered the geography of the planet into how we now see it. Before, it was connected to the Supercontinent, like everything else. Other cultures might/might not have had contact with Maztica in some fashion or another over the course of Abeir-Toril's history.
So the same thing must have happened with Abeir?
-No. As I said already:
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-'Abeir' is some kind of continent/landmass/moon/planet/demiplane/plane that, in the past, somehow "latched" on to 'Toril', joining the two as 'Abeir-Toril'. The denizens of 'Abeir', Aberrations, including the dreaded 'Aboleth Soverignty', attempted to colonize 'Toril' during this time. At some point, -31,000 DR, a group of deities pooled together and "flung" 'Abeir' away. What exactly this entails, we don't know yet. Now, concerning the Spellplague, the continent of Maztica was teleported away, and switched places with a landmass on 'Abeir'. Now, Maztica is in 'Abeir', and a landmass that was on 'Abeir' is where Maztica once was. Multiple other places, on Faerûn, and presumably on other continents, have been replaced with portions of Abeir as well.
I think they again want to do a something that Eberron did and detail the whole planet but not in full detail. They give you the bare bones of what is there.
Plus IMO it is not the info in a Campaign book that was thought to have scared people off from FR but the lore and history that some/many(?) people felt made the setting unplayable. A detailed and complete world is not scary but perhaps thousands of years of history is. Who knows?
Abeir's past invasion attempt was probably lost in time then since there is not much info on it in 2E or 3E.
-The only records that exist are in the hands of the Order of the Cerulean Sign, a secret order of Star Elves who protect the world (Abeir-Toril) from invasion by the Aboleth Soverignty. See the novel Stardeep for more information.
Plus IMO it is not the info in a Campaign book that was thought to have scared people off from FR but the lore and history that some/many(?) people felt made the setting unplayable. A detailed and complete world is not scary but perhaps thousands of years of history is. Who knows?
-That I disagree with. Most of the "depth" of the lore that is out there is not extremely evident at first glance. For example, we can find out more about the Rus, who came from the area around Illuskan, if I am not mistaken, by digging the history of the Rashemi. The causal person, who might be turned off by such depth, isn't going to find that kind of stuff immediatley.
I know you disagree with it and it never bothered me but in my years of gaming I noticed that fear of FRs lore made people dislike it...Like I said before perception is one reason they are changing things.
-Again, you misunderstand me. I did not say that it was the depth of lore that was scaring people off, because, in order to "find" that depth, so to speak, you need to go looking and start "digging", something that the casual person isn't really going to do. Again, why would someone looking for information about the cultures of Illuskan go looking in a sourcebook about Rasheman? The casual people, on this matter, remain blissfully ignorant, for the most part, for good or bad.
I hate the NPC thing. High level NPC are NOT a problem in any game anywhere. It is the GM who is the problem. In all the Games I have run, Elminster has only appeared 4 times, if he was not the one to gather the adventurers together to go on a quest. NPC's are not the problem. How you decide to handle them is. You could always just ignore the fact they even exist. The Lore also was not a problem. Most games people run don't give that much fluff in the sessions. How often do you give a reading from the book or a long winded account of every place the PC's go? If this is what you are doing, then, again, the problem is the GM and not the Fluff. You are just using too much, too often.
I absolutely hate these referrences of Too Much Lore and Too Many High Level NPC's.
Sorry, Rant over now. Continue with your day.
:D
This is not Eberron and people on Faerun did not rediscover high level magic. With the thousands of people living on Faerun with even the last thousand years I am sure at least one person would make a successful trip and record it. I would think given five thousand years more people would have made the trek and more recordings would be out there. There are none.
Not in the official sources, no. But they could be in a person's individual game.
That was pretty much the point--the DM could put whatever they wanted on those "Unknown Lands."Not in the official sources, no. But they could be in a person's individual game.
Yep. D&D has done this form the beginning. Provide areas for those who want to use them, and leave other areas blank or undeveloped for the DM to use as they see fit. If you go through the original boxed set, they even intended this with SEMBIA.
AHHHRRRRGGG!
I absolutely hate these referrences of Too Much Lore and Too Many High Level NPC's.
Sorry, Rant over now. Continue with your day.
:D
-Yes, yes. Calm down. We all know.
-Yes, yes. Calm down. We all know.
Oh, how unfair is the Lord Karsus.
You went and cut out the body of my story.
For Shame! For Shame!
:P
Oh, how unfair is the Lord Karsus.
You went and cut out the body of my story.
For Shame! For Shame!
:P
-I didn't want to quoted text to overshadow my witty reply. :P
-What, Maztica? Yes, Maztica has always been there, ever since the Sundering altered the geography of the planet into how we now see it. Before, it was connected to the Supercontinent, like everything else. Other cultures might/might not have had contact with Maztica in some fashion or another over the course of Abeir-Toril's history.
How long have the Aarrakorra been in Faerun? If I recall it right, they came from Maztica, but the RoF doesn't really specify when they did that.
This thread seems to be assuming that Abeir is very "Far Realmsian" in appearance. How does this mesh with what we know about Tymanther and Akanul? The FR podcast mentioned that on Abeir the Age of Dragons lasted much longer than it did on Toril - I'm thinking Dragonborn were probably created by Dragons as a slave race (thus the hostility of the Tymantheri Dragonborn). Is the continent that replaced Maztica ruled by Aberrations? Is it ruled by Dragons? Is it a combination? A community of Genasi also seems very high fantasy, but not particularly "Lovecraftian".
They may have been extremely heavy-handed in their removal of Maztica (and Unther and who knows what else), but I always felt that the real-world analogues in Faerun were jarring - I had nothing against Maztica or Kara-Tur, but they didn't belong in the Forgotten Realms, in my opinion. We'll have to wait and see if the new Maztica replacement is any better, but at least Ed Greenwood is writing most of the information on it.
How long have the Aarrakorra been in Faerun? If I recall it right, they came from Maztica, but the RoF doesn't really specify when they did that.
-The Aarrakorra were members of the Avian Creator Race, the Aearee. As the Aeries of their empire were being destroyed, they fled west, to what would become Maztica upon the Sundering, and came to become the Aarrakorra. The particular Aerie that did this was the Aerie of Aearee-Korcca, hence the name. All of this was circa -30,700 DRto -30,000 DR, approxamatley.
The information we are getting on Abeir seems to be strangely inconsistent. We have some indication that it "latched" onto Toril at some point, but also that it is some sort of lost "sister" world. Is this a poor choice of words on the part of one or more writers? Does it indicate that information on Abeir possessed by residents of Faerun is incomplete/not fully understood?
-The only information that the residents of Faerûn have about 'Abeir' would be the information that the Order of the Cerulean Sign have. And, being as this is a secret organization known only to a select few Star Elves- who themselves are something of a secret- very few individuals are actually in the know. I don't think it would be a stretch to say that folks like Khelben, or Elminster, are not in the know.
-That was, the information that we, the readers, have stems from the novel Stardeep, bits of the novel Swordmage, and bits from a few Countdown to the Realms articles.
-All of that said, we don't know, right now, what exactly 'Abeir' is, as I specifically stated in the opening post. It is some kind of landmass/continent/planet/demiplane/plane. As MT mentioned, that doesn't narrow down things a great deal. Being that it "latched on" to 'Toril' sometime before -31,000 DR, and was "flung away" in -31,000, one can consider it a "sister world" in a sense, as it was "joined" with 'Toril' for a time.
This thread seems to be assuming that Abeir is very "Far Realmsian" in appearance. How does this mesh with what we know about Tymanther and Akanul? The FR podcast mentioned that on Abeir the Age of Dragons lasted much longer than it did on Toril - I'm thinking Dragonborn were probably created by Dragons as a slave race (thus the hostility of the Tymantheri Dragonborn). Is the continent that replaced Maztica ruled by Aberrations? Is it ruled by Dragons? Is it a combination? A community of Genasi also seems very high fantasy, but not particularly "Lovecraftian".
-The only canon information that we have on 'Abeir' is that part or all of it is ruled by an Aboleth Soverignty, and that when it merged with 'Toril' all those years ago, multitudes of Aberration-type creatures came to 'Toril' to colonize it.
They may have been extremely heavy-handed in their removal of Maztica (and Unther and who knows what else), but I always felt that the real-world analogues in Faerun were jarring - I had nothing against Maztica or Kara-Tur, but they didn't belong in the Forgotten Realms, in my opinion. We'll have to wait and see if the new Maztica replacement is any better, but at least Ed Greenwood is writing most of the information on it.
-As they were, Maztica, and to a lesser degree, Osse, Kara-Tur and Zakhara are very historically analogous. With some effort, however, much can be done to minimize that, and make Maztica, Kara-Tur and Zakhara more unique, and in tune with the rest of the history of Abeir-Toril. This was the mission of the Kara-Tur Re-Dux, and if I don't say so myself, a lot of ground was made in making Kara-Tur less of Southeast Asia, and more of Kara-Tur.
-What saddens me is that, instead of putting the effort into it, it was simply decided to "trash" Maztica, so to speak, and to add in, in an equally heavy-handed way that Maztica was added into the setting, another locale that does not seem to fit on the map. Especially if the landmass that is replacing Maztica is "Lovecraftian", as most of 'Abeir' has been thus far.
-According to Rich Baker, Maztica was removed because it "tied the hands" of some DMs, because they could not use the region unless they wanted to run a Meso-American themed game. Likewise, it is not hard to replace "Maztica" and "Meso-American" with "Kara-Tur" and "Asian", and "Zakhara" and "Arabic". But, ironically enough, if this new landmass is as "Lovecraftian" as I am assuming it will be, based on the depiction of 'Abeir' in Stardeep, one can also replace "Maztica" and "Meso-American" with "This new landmass that is replacing Maztica" and "Lovecraftian".
i'm getting more and more confused about Abeir-Toril. Did it mean Cradle of Life or Bread Basket?
-It did, indeed, mean 'Cradle of Life'. That said, I'm not sure how applicable that "old lore" is anymore, with this Retcon.
Also, I don't think it was specifically mentioned that the Dragonborn and Tymanther came from Abeir. The Dragon article that mentioned them just said they came from another world. Of course, the podcast mentioned above might have clarified that matter (or hinted that the world they came from was indeed Abeir).
-Very, very, very true. Apparently, the Spellplague was the spark that messed with ALL of the Planes, and rearranged them into the new 4e format. That said, since the entire multiverse was involved in some transmogrification, it's entirely possible that Tymanther and Akanul came from places other than 'Abeir'.
-According to Rich Baker, Maztica was removed because it "tied the hands" of some DMs, because they could not use the region unless they wanted to run a Meso-American themed game. Likewise, it is not hard to replace "Maztica" and "Meso-American" with "Kara-Tur" and "Asian", and "Zakhara" and "Arabic". But, ironically enough, if this new landmass is as "Lovecraftian" as I am assuming it will be, based on the depiction of 'Abeir' in Stardeep, one can also replace "Maztica" and "Meso-American" with "This new landmass that is replacing Maztica" and "Lovecraftian".
Gee, didn;t you get the memo that Lovecraftian and tentacles and such are Cool. And Cool is essential for 4e.
I know I was one fo the few who liked Maztica because it put a Meso-America are in Faerun (and liked Kara tur for the Asian and Zakhara for the Arabic). Why people have no problem with the European feel of Faerun, but did with the others, I never understand. However, Maztica did not deserve to get supplanted by Call of Cthullu.
Why people have no problem with the European feel of Faerun, but did with the others, I never understand.
-Because fantasy with a Medieval Europe feel is "generic" Western fantasy. Anything with a different feel isn't. Thus...
-Because fantasy with a Medieval Europe feel is "generic" Western fantasy. Anything with a different feel isn't. Thus...
That does not make it any more or less Forgotten Realms than does Kara Tur, Zakhara, or Maztica
That does not make it any more or less Forgotten Realms than does Kara Tur, Zakhara, or Maztica
-Maztica, Zakhara and Kara-Tur weren't particularly Forgotten Realms to begin with. That said, they were there, so gotta work with what you got.
I'm thinking that this new continent will not have one central theme, but will rather be an entirely new continent to complement Faerun with many new cultures, environments, and so on.
We've also got this quote regarding Akanul from the Wailing Years article: "Akanûl, formerly the lands of Chondath, are now populated by genasi from the Abeiran land of Shyr, a region that will barely survive its first contact with the Abolethic Sovereignty some years later." [emphasis mine]. There is that mention of the Abolethic Sovereignty again.
Could this new setting be any more confusing.
-Probably.