Or perhaps in a "we know more than you do, so you must serve us" way, based on the supra-long-lived nature of the Aboleths and the probability that their collective, combined intelligence based in their citadel Xxiphu have inexorably divined the secrets of creation and the cosmos over the centuries, thus far outstripping the knowledge of any Elder Brain.
In the past I've toyed with the idea that Illithids were always the (lost) minions of the Aboleths. Now that these incredibly ancient creatures have come home to roost, the wisest elder brains are shuddering with fear in their slimy vats.
Of course you could flip this idea around, with the Illithids opting to suffer no competition or invasion of their territory by the Aboleths, who are themselves expanding far and wide into those parts of the Underdark once controlled by the solitary Aboleths who resided there before the Sovereignty appeared in the Realms.
Regardless, I think in terms of building a campaign and playing a character this is a great excuse to run Illithid characters (if you’re playing with Third Edition D&D rules, use the Illithid Body Tamer prestige class from the superb Forgotten Realms sourcebook Underdark) in a campaign centered on battling the Abolehts and their Unfettered servants: Krakens, Morkoths, Kuo-toas, who all can breathe air and even fly (see the Fourth Edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, page 174).
now if they both had something to gain from the other to do so, maybe.
they have to be able to stand each other, dont see that happening either
Sounds great!
Srsly though, in Lords of Madness (3.5), it is said that the illithids are the only race the aboleths come close to fearing ('cause they don't remember the genesis of mind flayers). They will make alliances as they share the same mindset (cold logic, hunger for knowledge, power, etc). The book describes them as "cosmic bookends, one from the ancient past and the other from the doomed future".
:88E: :coolcthul 
:coolcthul :88E: However ... the Abolethic Sovereignty have been detailed as totally different form their lesser kin of the seas. They are ancient even by the race's standards. They might keep to themselves, assured in the power they possess.
Moreover, whatever Mind Flayers might have once been in the past, the 4e Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide states "Bizarre creatures such as mind flayers, aboleths, destrachans, and foulspawn are all progeny of the Far Realms mixing with other realities."
So, whether you go with the Spelljammer fluff or not, the mind flayers are originally from the Far Realm (or a product of the Far Realms influence upon prime reality).
For me personally, I sort of hesitate to use the Glyph fluff, because Glyph is a planet in the same solar system as Abier-Toril. As I said, I am sort of really bothered by the concept of a fantasy solar system filled with habitable planets. I mean, Anadia as a planet closest to the sun and mostly populated by Halflings and Umber hulks? Yuck. Gag me with a spoon.
But, I have been toying with a concept that I find sort of neat. I have been toying with the concept that the mind flayers were once a prime material race. Just like Xxiphu is now rising and allowing for a gate between Faerun and the Far Realm, once before another such city rose on some other planet. On that planet the Far Realm won, and the most prominent race of that planet was warped and twisted, turned into something else, turned into a Far Realm imitation of whatever it once was. It was turned into the Mind Flayer. While I am not really ok with a solar system filled with habitable planets, I am cool with having one planet in the solar system which was once habitable. So, lets say that planet was Glyph, and that planet was once the home of whatever the mind flayers were before they were twisted into mind flayers.
And, lets go with the "not an ally of the Aboleth Sovereignty." I'm thinking that perhaps there is something of discord between the two groups, because the mind flayer elder brains to some extent still remember the loss of what they once were at the hands of the Sovereignty. On the other hand, the Sovereignty believes that the mind flayers aught to be their servants, and are constantly trying to put the collar back on the mind flayer societies neck.
Thanks for the help everyone. And anyone who has some ideas on fleshing out the concept I have decided to use for my campaign, I would love to hear them!
"Now, as for the [the issue of discussion] issue, it's a non-starter as far as my opinion goes. You can state that "this is how it is now" and claim that "it's always been like this;" that's fine from a game rule POV, but as for the lore already established, it can't be dismissed so readily. Thus, within the game, yes, [the issue of discussion]. However, as a matter of story and narrative and lore, there's differences that won't affect your game at all [The issue of discussion] that can be left alone.
That's my suggestion--honor the older lore, rather than force a lot of unnecessary changes retroactively because of a decision made for the game side of things."
-As an aside, I like the concept of Spelljammer, but not the specifics that came to be defined in all of the Spelljammer books.
-As Steve Schend said (not that you have to listen):
"Now, as for the [the issue of discussion] issue, it's a non-starter as far as my opinion goes. You can state that "this is how it is now" and claim that "it's always been like this;" that's fine from a game rule POV, but as for the lore already established, it can't be dismissed so readily. Thus, within the game, yes, [the issue of discussion]. However, as a matter of story and narrative and lore, there's differences that won't affect your game at all [The issue of discussion] that can be left alone.
That's my suggestion--honor the older lore, rather than force a lot of unnecessary changes retroactively because of a decision made for the game side of things."
-As an aside, I like the concept of Spelljammer, but not the specifics that came to be defined in all of the Spelljammer books.
I guess I just don't see it the same way. I look to the existing lore for inspiration, but in the end my campaign is not the official campaign, its mine. If I decide I don't like something, that is it. I am happy to cut it out of the game to my hearts content, or hack at the lore with as many chainsaws as I please. I don't like spelljammer or anything to do with it. Realmspace, and all those concepts, are spelljammer concepts. They are concepts I am happy to (and will) cut out of my game. Does that mean that my game will be the official realms? Hell no. My game will be my personal interpretation (and sometimes re-imagination) of the realms.
I turn to the lore for inspiration, but the final product at the game table will always be my own.
That, and the 4e Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting clearly states that the illithid are a product of the Far Realms.
But, that being said, a little more research and I have discovered that my above concept as written won't work. Part of the whole reason the Aboleth slightly fear and respect the illithid is because they are the one race whose origin they cannot remember. So, I am thinking, if I go with the above idea I will state that the illithid were enslaved by the Aboleth... that is until the illithid managed to weave a psychic web that freed them from slavory, and caused their Aboleth masters to forget about the illithid's existence. Of course, by this point in time, the illithid and their society was forever altered and twisted by its contact with the Far Realm.
When I play FR and when I ran it a few years ago I made sure spelljamming never shows itself in my game.
Now the concept of Jamming on the Astral Sea really does somethign for me. It brings Planscape and Jamming together but in a way that makes me want to buy a product that has these two mixed together.
Now the concept of Jamming on the Astral Sea really does somethign for me. It brings Planscape and Jamming together but in a way that makes me want to buy a product that has these two mixed together.
Yea, that's how I feel. One involves people sailing boats across the metaphysical waters between reality, time, and space. The other involves some sort of hoaky magic space ships. That is the difference between neat and lame.
They're a semi-regular feature in the spelljamming aspects of my Realms.
Ok, so, to start off with, I was examining the Aboleth, the Illithid, and their similarities. There are a lot of obvious similarities between the two, so I am not going to bother bringing those up. The key difference is that the Illithid are not born with ancestral memory (instead they add their brains and consciousness to the elder brain upon death.) Another key difference is that the Illithid are largly a land walking creature, and the Aboleth are a sea dwelling creature (unfettered versions aside).
So, this brought me to my next observations. Everything about the Abolethic Sovereignty deals with the sea. Aboleths are the "rulers." Their servitors are all sea related aberrations. Xxiphu always appears over the Sea of Fallen Stars. Yet, Xxiphu can float, so the question I asked myself was "why?" I don't know the official reason, but this is what I decided I would use as my campaign world reason: the boundaries to the Far Realm are somehow weaker over large bodies of water. The Far Realm has an easier time manipulating reality over or close to these large bodies of water. Xxiphu cannot appear over land, and the Far Realm cannot (easily) warp reality over land, until its foothold over the prime material plane and that planes reality is strengthened (by further altering the reality it can alter.)
Now, reading over Illithid and their origin, I decided to use something inspired by existing Illithid lore (in this case from Lords of Madness.) So, MY illithid origin story goes something like this. Far in Faerun's future the Abolethic Sovereignty wins. Xxiphu can appear over land as well as sea. The land begins to become drowned in abberation. The prime realm exists as something closer to the state of a domain in the Far Realm. One of the moves that the Aboleth made in their attempt to gain dominion over the prime realm was to create the illithid. The first illithid were little more larvae. They were designed to infest and transform the land dwelling population of Faerun into Abolethic servitors. The first Elder Brains were created around this time as well.
But, some illithid maintained the mannerism of the host creature even after ceremorphosis. At first, this went on unnoticed. Eventually, a rare few creatures maintained their whole personality after ceremorphosis. When these illithid died, and their brains were consumed by the Elder Brain, their personalities truly did fuse with the personalities of the Elder Brains. Suddenly something was born among the illithid that the Aboleth did not intent, the desire for freedom from the Abolethic Sovereignty. A large portion of the illithid revolted against the Sovereignty, but this was a revolution they could not win. Finally the illithid began to prepare for a powerful ritual. They would sacrifice a large number of Elder Brains and illithid in a ritual that would allow the select few to travel back in time. They succeeded, and traveled to a Faerun not yet under the influence of Xxiphu.
Now, the illithid never actually knew what caused Xxiphu to rise. The illithid don't have ancestral memory, and Xxiphu doesn't exactly going around broadcasting news to mortals, so with the Cerulean Sign destroyed by the time period when the illithid were created, knowledge of the origins of Xxiphu were never accessible to the prime material population. When the Elder Brains saw that Xxiphu had not yet risen, they hoped that this was because in this time line it had never risen. But, when the these illithid first learned that aboleth did exist in this world, hiding in the depths of Faerun, the Elder Brains of the illithid were afraid that Xxiphu might still rise again. The illithid formed a number of inquisitions and cults designed to root out the extent of aboleth power, and their influence upon Faerun. But these groups were never able to uncover anything of any real value. What is more, whatever these illithid might be, they were still illithid. They still had a hunger for brains. And they also had power! The process of ceremophisis had granted them the ability to conquer Fearun, and in so doing extend their influence and empower their influence over the land to the point where Xxiphu would never be allowed to rise. And so the illithid began to spread.
But, the illithid are not born with ancestral memory. And, the Elder Brains keep many secrets to themselves. With time, most of the illithid population forgot about their historical roots. Sure, the The Sargonne Prophecies exist, but most of what they say has been so twisted or altered by the passage of time that many illithid consider them to be little more then myths. Moreover, each Elder Brain that has died has essentially taken part of the illithid history to its grave, and new Elder Brains do not have access to this knowledge of the future-past.
And then Xxiphu suddenly rises, and those Elder Brains that do remember have begun to quake with fear.
I still have not decided how to work the planet Glyph element into this origin story, or the whole inter-planer illithid/gith relationship.
Thoughts on my retcon of the future-past of the illithid in Faerun? Have plot holes I should be aware of? Thoughts on how to incorporate elements I have not (as of yet)? Likes/dislikes?
-Alright, I like the Giff, but...
Giff snot is an essential material component for the arcane spell "Evard's Overly Glutinous Phlegmatic Glob," btw. In case you were curious. ;)
-Which males me think: OP, you can have Neogi working as "partners" with the Aboleth, in lieu of Illithid. Neogi are mobile and can go places that Aboleth cannot (The Void).
And giff are the very model of a modern major general! *he sings in Gilbert and Sullivan sort of way*
On the OP, well, yes...I azways saw them as great rivals, too
I've got a question, and since this seems like the most likely thread for it, I hope you don't mind me squeezing it in here.
Skum (I think thats what they are called) - is the only way to get out of being one with a remove-curse spell? What happens if the 'Big Boss Fish' dies all of sudden?
Do the slaves just 'stop', or do they regain free will?
I was never very happy with that.
On Topic:
You know... they have Giant Catfish in K-T...
Maybe there IS a connection - the Illithids are known for experimental cross-breeding with just about everything - what if they tried it with Catfish?
Enter... THE ABOLETHS!!!
After all, they got those cutesy tentacle-things hangings from their chins... :coolcthul
That sums up all six novels pretty well.
On Topic:
You know... they have Giant Catfish in K-T...
Maybe there IS a connection - the Illithids are known for experimental cross-breeding with just about everything - what if they tried it with Catfish?
Enter... THE ABOLETHS!!!
After all, they got those cutesy tentacle-things hangings from their chins... :coolcthul
I am currently reading the Plague of Spells. I am not far enough in the book to say for sure, but the Illithid were certainly interested in artifacts that dealt with the Abolithic Sovereignty.
Just like you get an even bigger creature when you cross two RW species - the sum is sometimes greater then the parts. ;)
And to REALLY get you wired... wait until you see my version of where the Krakentoa really came from.
The Illithids used to experiment with giants, too... until one fateful day...
I got slightly screwed by that Krankentoa entry in the GHotR, but I found a way to spin it so that everything works out...
And strangely enough, I can thank Bruce Cordell for that.
An Aboleth is what happens when you cross a Illithid with a Giant Catfish (which are intelligent in Eastern Mythology).
My Koi-Illithid experiments shall prevail in the end, however. The Aboleth shall perish, through painful wiggly fish-thoughts! By the thousands... the spawning is near!!! :evillaugh
Ooops, too late. :embarrass