Actual cost of items - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Actual cost of items

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
jtibbs
Feb 19, 2011 4:44:21 SO has anyone ever considered how obscenely expensive most (all) magic items are? And how it seems completely impossible that the stated market prices for them are anywhere near what they would actually be in the actual world?

Think of it this way: If a skilled workergets payed 1sp per day of work, and he works 5 days a week, 51 weeks a year his average yearly pay would be 255 silver pieces.

If he wanted to buy a single Ring of Protection +1, a common magic item and set aside half his income for it, it would take him 156.9 years to save up enough to buy it.

To put it into a little better perspective, lets assume his wages represent the same as an average skilled factory worker in modern times. The skilled factory worker makes roughly 50,000 USD a year in income and benefits. This would mean that if they had equivilent wages, a single Ring of protection +1 is basically equivilent to around 3.9 million USD.

A Ring of Regeneration would basically cost the equivilent of 175,000,000 USD.

So pretty much every single magic item is hyper inflated in the games.

Has anyone ever considered modifying the system to bring the prices to a more rational level? One that isnt stupidly expensive?

Pretty much all quest rewards and everything else would be moved well down, so the amount of money characters could aquire would be proportionally reduced of course. But it think it would suit the games much more if they had a real rational pricing scheme, and rational prices.

It cost a viking roughly 12 milk cows for a good suit of chainmail. A milkcow probably only cost 1-2 gold coins the size of the ones in the Forgotten Realms. That would mean the statted price of just a chainmail suit was probably 5-10 times too much.

hell, for most magic items, the price should really be dropped to about 2% the cost. They are seriously extremely overpriced.

Reworking the various items to such rational levels, and adjusting the loot and starting wealth of characters would really help to add a touch of realism and enhance the roleplaying of any game.

Does anyone else have any input? Or ideas for new equations? something like instead of making your item cost equations in gp use sp, or even something like 2 cp instead?

Because as is its just completely broken. Any adventurer looking for wealth/a comfortable life could retire once he got his hands on his first magic item and sold it. If a guy can live comfortably on 1sp a day, then imagine what basic adventuring gear like rings or potions can do for you.
#2
Keith53
Feb 19, 2011 14:04:21 While it might seem the prices are out of bounds, I feel there are some other considerations. First, since we don't have magic items in the real world, there is a certain hand waving factor in setting the estimated prices. Second, the assumption that the average skilled labor could or should be able to buy a magic ring is way unrealistic or inconsistent with most fantasy settings or stories. Most settings are either medieval or early rennaissance (FR is the latter), and there should be a huge difference between what common workers/peasants can afford and the wealthy. (I recommend you check histories about what the peasants ate and wore versus the wealthy.) Third, in most fantasy worlds, magic is not so common as to really be available over the counter in stores. A magic item that was dearly won through adventure or conquest, or perhaps handed down in families over generations would surely be sold for a dear price. Fourth, most magic items should not be made in an assembly line, at least to be consistent with most mythology, which contributes to rarity.

The presumption is made in D&D that adventurers are special; they gain and spend great treasures; and they will find/make contacts to have access to such items, depending upon the campaign and the DM.

Comparing to salary and purchasing power in modern (1st world) RL society is an flawed comparison IMHO.

Keith
#3
jtibbs
Feb 19, 2011 14:32:11 the wealthy didnt eat all that much better than the average peasent, and outside of incredibly rich kings and dukes 'wealthy as hell' meant they could afford a horse and a set of chainmail armor.

seriously, there is no 'oh a basic magic item is too expensive for a commoner to buy'. "too expensive for a commoner' would mean something like several months or even a couple years wages. They lived off the skin of their teeth after all, and it could take decades to save up several months worth of wages.

the presumption of adventurers being special is true, yes, but the sheer amount of wealth they acculmulate even by level 1 or 2 is freaking insane by real world medieval standards.

The entire money system is so out of whack its completely broken.

A single encounter at level 1 nets the adventurer 300gp. thats the equivilent to a getting attacked by a wolf or other animal and getting rich. Commoners hunted wolves all the time to protect their livestock, and if it was possible to get so wealthy fighting an enemy at that level you could bet your commoners would form groups and hunt down hobgoblins or whatever.

300gp would mean nearly 12 years of wages to a commoner after all. the entire money system for adventurers is way too inflated, as they are pretty much an entirely seperate economy fromt the rest of the world.

Does anyone have any ideas on how to adjust all the prices and rewards to make it more 'real'?

Edit:

I'm seriously just thinking of reducing the price of every signle item to 1/50 the price, and reducing money recieved by the same amount. Just for better role playing, because as is its so insane the economist in me is screaming 'these people are retarded and there must be a 'nobles economy' and a 'peasants economy' in which the nobles use the gold between themeselves, and the peasants use silver, and the peasants laugh at the nobles who are using a worthless shiny metal because at how common gold is, it certainly isnt worth even a single silver piece.
#4
The_Silversword
Feb 20, 2011 15:42:48 It really depends on what kind of game you want to run. I think the magic item prices are just fine the way they are. I dont want everybody to be able to afford magic flaming longswords of deth+5. I like to keep magic more rarer. Most shops wouldnt even have any magic items, not unless youre doing a high magic campaign. Some of the bigger cities like Waterdeep would probably have magic items for sale but they probably would be pretty expensive.
#5
meldread
Feb 21, 2011 1:54:12
First, what edition are you using? I'm guessing you're using 3rd Edition.

Regardless, though my line of thinking is basically the same as the Silversword. Although I do agree with you when it comes to some of the mundane items; I think you're making a mistake when it comes to magical items. Have you contemplated the implications of your actions?

Now, I know the Realms has some weird schizophrenia when it comes to magic. On the one hand it wants it to be common, pervasive, widespread, and easily accessible to the common man – on the other, it doesn't want to address the implications of that happening. Long story short? You get a setting that looks radically different than even the 4th Edition Realms.

Basically, take a look at Eberron and how they've tried to incorporate D&D realism into their setting. You've got commoners, for example, with Prestidigitation items – basically magical stones that wash clothes for you (the magical equivalent of a washing machine). Sure, that's cute and gimmicky, but Eberron also went out of its way to keep that kind of stuff under control. The Realms is overrun with mid to high level spellcasters, some of which are dedicated primarily to crafting magical items.

The end result? Imagine our societies problems with guns. Then imagine instead of guns our problem was with bazookas; because you're basically placing a wand of fireballs into the hand of any moderately well off individual. You've basically equipped them with the equivalent of a semi-automatic bomb gun.

You've also dramatically reduced the need for low level adventurers.

Oh, and for a better perspective just imagine if the Realms invaded the real world. Imagine that every army and weapon known to man was allied against them. And that they had a force less than 1/10th the size of our own. Then realize that even with all of our technology and advancements it wouldn't matter. The sheer power they'd bring to bare with their magic – similar to cheap tactical nukes minus the radioactive fallout – would make anything we had to use look silly by comparison.

Imagine the changes this one thing would have on warfare in the Realms. Imagine the social implications. Sure, it could solve some problems that faces society that even our modern world can't address, but it'd create worse problems as a result.

My point? Making magical items cheap or widely available is always a bad idea unless you're prepared for the consequences. Even if you choose to ignore how it'll effect the world, you still have the players to worry about...

I think everyone could benefit from reading Calibrating Your Expectations by Justin Alexander. It doesn't deal with prices of magical items in D&D, but it does deal with something closely linked to that discussion which is entirely relevant when it comes to discussing the Realms. Especially in these terms.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 jtibbs Feb 19, 2011 4:44:21	SO has anyone ever considered how obscenely expensive most (all) magic items are? And how it seems completely impossible that the stated market prices for them are anywhere near what they would actually be in the actual world? Think of it this way: If a skilled workergets payed 1sp per day of work, and he works 5 days a week, 51 weeks a year his average yearly pay would be 255 silver pieces. If he wanted to buy a single Ring of Protection +1, a common magic item and set aside half his income for it, it would take him 156.9 years to save up enough to buy it. To put it into a little better perspective, lets assume his wages represent the same as an average skilled factory worker in modern times. The skilled factory worker makes roughly 50,000 USD a year in income and benefits. This would mean that if they had equivilent wages, a single Ring of protection +1 is basically equivilent to around 3.9 *million* USD. A Ring of Regeneration would basically cost the equivilent of 175,000,000 USD. So pretty much every single magic item is hyper inflated in the games. Has anyone ever considered modifying the system to bring the prices to a more rational level? One that isnt stupidly expensive? Pretty much all quest rewards and everything else would be moved well down, so the amount of money characters could aquire would be proportionally reduced of course. But it think it would suit the games much more if they had a real rational pricing scheme, and rational prices. It cost a viking roughly 12 milk cows for a good suit of chainmail. A milkcow probably only cost 1-2 gold coins the size of the ones in the Forgotten Realms. That would mean the statted price of just a chainmail suit was probably 5-10 times too much. hell, for most magic items, the price should really be dropped to about 2% the cost. They are seriously extremely overpriced. Reworking the various items to such rational levels, and adjusting the loot and starting wealth of characters would really help to add a touch of realism and enhance the roleplaying of any game. Does anyone else have any input? Or ideas for new equations? something like instead of making your item cost equations in gp use sp, or even something like 2 cp instead? Because as is its just completely broken. Any adventurer looking for wealth/a comfortable life could retire once he got his hands on his first magic item and sold it. If a guy can live comfortably on 1sp a day, then imagine what basic adventuring gear like rings or potions can do for you.
#2 Keith53 Feb 19, 2011 14:04:21	While it might seem the prices are out of bounds, I feel there are some other considerations. First, since we don't have magic items in the real world, there is a certain hand waving factor in setting the estimated prices. Second, the assumption that the average skilled labor could or should be able to buy a magic ring is way unrealistic or inconsistent with most fantasy settings or stories. Most settings are either medieval or early rennaissance (FR is the latter), and there should be a huge difference between what common workers/peasants can afford and the wealthy. (I recommend you check histories about what the peasants ate and wore versus the wealthy.) Third, in most fantasy worlds, magic is not so common as to really be available over the counter in stores. A magic item that was dearly won through adventure or conquest, or perhaps handed down in families over generations would surely be sold for a dear price. Fourth, most magic items should not be made in an assembly line, at least to be consistent with most mythology, which contributes to rarity. The presumption is made in D&D that adventurers are special; they gain and spend great treasures; and they will find/make contacts to have access to such items, depending upon the campaign and the DM. Comparing to salary and purchasing power in modern (1st world) RL society is an flawed comparison IMHO. Keith
#3 jtibbs Feb 19, 2011 14:32:11	the wealthy didnt eat all that much better than the average peasent, and outside of incredibly rich kings and dukes 'wealthy as hell' meant they could afford a horse and a set of chainmail armor. seriously, there is no 'oh a basic magic item is too expensive for a commoner to buy'. "too expensive for a commoner' would mean something like several months or even a couple years wages. They lived off the skin of their teeth after all, and it could take decades to save up several months worth of wages. the presumption of adventurers being special is true, yes, but the sheer amount of wealth they acculmulate even by level 1 or 2 is freaking insane by real world medieval standards. The entire money system is so out of whack its completely broken. A single encounter at level 1 nets the adventurer 300gp. thats the equivilent to a getting attacked by a wolf or other animal and getting rich. Commoners hunted wolves all the time to protect their livestock, and if it was possible to get so wealthy fighting an enemy at that level you could bet your commoners would form groups and hunt down hobgoblins or whatever. 300gp would mean nearly 12 years of wages to a commoner after all. the entire money system for adventurers is way too inflated, as they are pretty much an entirely seperate economy fromt the rest of the world. Does anyone have any ideas on how to adjust all the prices and rewards to make it more 'real'? Edit: I'm seriously just thinking of reducing the price of every signle item to 1/50 the price, and reducing money recieved by the same amount. Just for better role playing, because as is its so insane the economist in me is screaming 'these people are retarded and there must be a 'nobles economy' and a 'peasants economy' in which the nobles use the gold between themeselves, and the peasants use silver, and the peasants laugh at the nobles who are using a worthless shiny metal because at how common gold is, it certainly isnt worth even a single silver piece.
#4 The_Silversword Feb 20, 2011 15:42:48	It really depends on what kind of game you want to run. I think the magic item prices are just fine the way they are. I dont want everybody to be able to afford magic flaming longswords of deth+5. I like to keep magic more rarer. Most shops wouldnt even have any magic items, not unless youre doing a high magic campaign. Some of the bigger cities like Waterdeep would probably have magic items for sale but they probably would be pretty expensive.
#5 meldread Feb 21, 2011 1:54:12	First, what edition are you using? I'm guessing you're using 3rd Edition. Regardless, though my line of thinking is basically the same as the Silversword. Although I do agree with you when it comes to some of the mundane items; I think you're making a mistake when it comes to magical items. Have you contemplated the implications of your actions? Now, I know the Realms has some weird schizophrenia when it comes to magic. On the one hand it wants it to be common, pervasive, widespread, and easily accessible to the common man – on the other, it doesn't want to address the implications of that happening. Long story short? You get a setting that looks radically different than even the 4th Edition Realms. Basically, take a look at Eberron and how they've tried to incorporate D&D realism into their setting. You've got commoners, for example, with Prestidigitation items – basically magical stones that wash clothes for you (the magical equivalent of a washing machine). Sure, that's cute and gimmicky, but Eberron also went out of its way to keep that kind of stuff under control. The Realms is overrun with mid to high level spellcasters, some of which are dedicated primarily to crafting magical items. The end result? Imagine our societies problems with guns. Then imagine instead of guns our problem was with bazookas; because you're basically placing a wand of fireballs into the hand of any moderately well off individual. You've basically equipped them with the equivalent of a semi-automatic bomb gun. You've also dramatically reduced the need for low level adventurers. Oh, and for a better perspective just imagine if the Realms invaded the real world. Imagine that every army and weapon known to man was allied against them. And that they had a force less than 1/10th the size of our own. Then realize that even with all of our technology and advancements it wouldn't matter. The sheer power they'd bring to bare with their magic – similar to cheap tactical nukes minus the radioactive fallout – would make anything we had to use look silly by comparison. Imagine the changes this one thing would have on warfare in the Realms. Imagine the social implications. Sure, it could solve some problems that faces society that even our modern world can't address, but it'd create worse problems as a result. My point? Making magical items cheap or widely available is always a bad idea unless you're prepared for the consequences. Even if you choose to ignore how it'll effect the world, you still have the players to worry about... I think everyone could benefit from reading Calibrating Your Expectations by Justin Alexander. It doesn't deal with prices of magical items in D&D, but it does deal with something closely linked to that discussion which is entirely relevant when it comes to discussing the Realms. Especially in these terms.