And no, not all dead end up at Kelemvor. Some get lost in the Shadowplane, or go directly to their dieties domain (very rare).
And the fugue plane is not a permanent stop, a petetioner can spotted by a angel or devil and be picked up from Kel's realm and be brought to his superiors domain.
my question is how did the shadow get mixed up in all of this as it is basically a combination of the negitive energy plane the etheral plane and the plane of shadow, which if i remember correctly dont deal with souls. I belive it states in F&P that souls go straight to the fuge plane
-That's another thing that the 4e books arbitrarily changed that has left a bad taste in some people's mouths, just because of the arbitrariness of it. Now, they don't go directly to the Fugue. Like Suin said, some souls get lost in the Plane of Shadows during the "procession" from being a living being to the Fugue Plane, or some get directly picked up by their deities, forgoing the "procession". That deities ordinarily don't "pick up" those worshipers is another change.
but Deities dont care enough about there followers to pick up the worshipers half the time? what is the point of worshipping now?
so am i getting this right and apoligize to the OP for jacking the thread
but Deities dont care enough about there followers to pick up the worshipers half the time? what is the point of worshipping now?
My guess would be that they (the designers) changed it as it might have seemed a bit improbable that all souls, as long as they had some kind of faith, were taken to the domains of the other gods. First off theirs would be filled with millions of souls, and all Kelemvor would have were the False and Faithless.
I think they see the gods' domains as the ultimate prize for a pious and faithful life of service, not a given. So only their best followers are accepted inside, while the rest will end up at Kelemvor or lost in the Shadowfell or what have you.
The point of worshipping is that you should do it properly and with much faith, and not just pay lip service to Ilmater (or whomever) to score a lovely afterlife.
so am i getting this right and apoligize to the OP for jacking the thread
but Deities dont care enough about there followers to pick up the worshipers half the time? what is the point of worshipping now?
-More or less, and I don't know. Only their "best" followers are 'picked up' now.
The point of worshipping is that you should do it properly and with much faith, and not just pay lip service to Ilmater (or whomever) to score a lovely afterlife.
-Faerûn, being pantheistic, places no stigma on paying lip service to deities. One might even say it's encouraged, regardless if a person has a personal patron or not.
Polytheism is no help however if deities take followers to separate planes for their eternal reward.
Why not? There's more to religion in the Realms than what happens after death.
Personally, I took Tempest's theory to refer to what happened to a soul that while polytheistic, still had a favourite god above all others.
That's cool and fine, if still a bit odd to me.
Well in truth it's no more odd, to me, than the rest of this subject in general.
And then even if as you said Kelmover only had the false and faithless he did still have his worshipers there as well and there would be quite a bit of them as he is a greater god.
the 4e garbage kind of implies that the Ravven (bimbo goth) queen is active in the realms which she is not
What is the point of deities of the dead for different species if all the dead go to Kelamvor?
The Fugue Plane is just a bus-stop on the way to the afterlife. It's a lobby. It's an airport. The dead just go there to get picked up by agents of their deities (or sometimes the deity himself) to be taken to their final destination.
Kelemvor is not really the "Judge of the Dead". He only has dominion over his own worshipers and those souls who are not claimed by any other gods. He only judges the Faithless (never gave allegiance to a god) and the False (rejected or disowned by their chosen god). Think of it as the Lost & Found of the Fugue, he only has authority over those souls who are left behind and unclaimed at the train station which is the Fugue.
Kelemvor is just the station manager. He is there to keep the place clean and maintain the Fugue as neutral ground so that all the gods can come and collect the souls of their worshippers safely and efficiently. He keeps the gods from fighting over souls. Kelemvor plays a vital function in a polytheistic universe. You wouldn't want certain gods or coalitions of gods to take over the Fugue and divert souls to their own planes or divine domains. Probably dating all the way back to the War of Light and Darkness, the Fugue was established either by Ao or by a compact between the gods. No doubt the rules governing the Fugue are one of the things recorded in the Tablets of Ao.
Once a god (or his agent) picks up the recently deceased souls that belong to the god, that god takes the souls that belong to him back to his plane/divine domain, and then can judge them, transform them, or do whatever he likes with his souls. Kelemvor has no authority over the faithful of any other god. He cannot (or may not) interfere with a soul leaving the Fugue to go to the afterlife of that soul's patron deity.
Many pantheons have a god that serves as a judge of the dead. Not all do. That deity is in charge for determining the fate of souls for that pantheon. For instance, Sehanine is the judge of the dead for the elven pantheon. Kelemvor cannot interfere with the judgment of those gods of the dead over the souls of their petitioners. Kelemvor has no say regarding a soul once it leaves the Fugue, and little say (if any) regarding a soul that is waiting to get picked up by his god.
Have you ever been in one of those? They ARE Hell! :D
Though from what I've read, 4e makes even more of a mess than 3e did of the afterlife... gods I miss Planescape sometimes...
Though from what I've read, 4e makes even more of a mess than 3e did of the afterlife... gods I miss Planescape sometimes...
In the core setting, it's fairly simplistic--not even the gods know what happens to a soul after death (and perhaps there is no real "afterlife"). The soul passes through the Shadowfell but doesn't stay there.
The gods not knowing is a bit weird to be, but the idea of not really having an afterlife doesn't bother me.
As for the FR afterlife, I'm still a bit confused about it. I *think* it follows the core idea, with the exception of gods keeping hold of their most faithful followers. Or something like that...
The shadowfell being folded round Abeir-Toril ensures some souls could get lost travelling t'wards the Fugue. This transition could take as long as is needed for a DM's story, for example the passing of a family member could be felt when its soul beyond the veil brushes close to a material body. Similarly such a soul might be able to cling on to someones living soul, anchoring themselves to a person or place, escaping the pull to the fugue.
Lots of mysterious things can happen when one can truly have to say goodbye and even gods dont have answers (except for perhaps Jergal, but he's too bored to tell you :devil
.-That Ghostwalk had it's own explanations for the dead, and what happens with them (going to the city of...Manifest, I think it was called), that's good for the Ghostwalk campaign. Likewise, the Forgotten Realms has it's own explanations for the dead, and all of that. Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Eberron, they all do. Rules shouldn't have explanations, like the 4e rules don't. Rules =/= settings, and the setting should always have "free reign" to determine things however it wants, apart from the rules. Prohibitions on certain races, or certain classes, or whatever else, in different settings is an example of that in effect. Arbitrarily changing things, that's always bad ju-ju.
In the core setting, it's fairly simplistic--not even the gods know what happens to a soul after death (and perhaps there is no real "afterlife"). The soul passes through the Shadowfell but doesn't stay there.
Which sort-of defeats the whole point of religion.
Hasbro is so busy tip-toeing around the issue trying to avoid creating a religous backlash, that they've turned religion itself into a meaningless joke.
Way to go.
Souls that were faithful (for good or evil) go to their god's realm, and souls that weren't so faithful go with Kelemvor. thats the simplest way to look at it. As for the 'faithles' - on a planet like FR thats just pure BS... how can you not believe in gods that deliver spells to their priests and walk around during the ToT?
As for Kelemvor's religion... it is the most pointless of the bunch. Follow him faithfully and you go to his realm. Don't bother with any god and just live your life any way you want... and you still go to his realm.
There is absolutely no point in worshipping Kelemvor. His is the 'default afterlife'.
Which sort-of defeats the whole point of religion.
Hasbro is so busy tip-toeing around the issue trying to avoid creating a religous backlash, that they've turned religion itself into a meaningless joke.
Way to go.
-Religion, which is something that shouldn't be given definitions or anything like that in the rules. That's a topic that varies depending on the setting, and is defined by the setting. Of course, 4e is kind of wishy-washy about not having a setting attached to the rules/with the rules written in mind. "Core world" isn't an actual place, but it is, in a roundabout way.
Without the big 'payout', religion itself becomes 'wishy washy'.
Deity: Take my armies and throw them against the walls of the infidel, my paladin!
Paladin: And when we all die, we get to Heaven, right?
Deity: Ummmm... not exactly...
Paldin: Well, we get some sort of reward, right?
Deity: Well... you see... its like this... I really have no clue what happens to you after you die...
Paladin: Ummm... Lord? I think I'm just gonna take my friends and go home...
Deity: But what about my crusade?
Paladin: I was thinking about switching to the goddess of love, anyway... at least we get some earthly pleasures out of the deal... see you in the next life... NOT!
Which sort-of defeats the whole point of religion.
Hasbro is so busy tip-toeing around the issue trying to avoid creating a religous backlash, that they've turned religion itself into a meaningless joke.
Way to go.
Sadly, I can't quite find it in myself to disagree, no matter how much I'd like to...
Souls that were faithful (for good or evil) go to their god's realm, and souls that weren't so faithful go with Kelemvor. thats the simplest way to look at it. As for the 'faithles' - on a planet like FR thats just pure BS... how can you not believe in gods that deliver spells to their priests and walk around during the ToT?
Those, such as the Netherese, who see the gods as just really powerful wizards to be killed with their phat loot ganked maybe? :D
As for Kelemvor's religion... it is the most pointless of the bunch. Follow him faithfully and you go to his realm. Don't bother with any god and just live your life any way you want... and you still go to his realm.
There is absolutely no point in worshipping Kelemvor. His is the 'default afterlife'.
Heh, sadly that does seem to be the case. Maybe he's got a Club Med sort of deal at work that only his faithful followers get to hang out in as an incentive. :D
Heh, sadly that does seem to be the case. Maybe he's got a Club Med sort of deal at work that only his faithful followers get to hang out in as an incentive. :D
-That's how I handle the afterlife in my own setting (I use Jergal as the Lord of the Dead, and the Raven Queen as his consort). There is no such thing as 'False', or 'Faithless', and all of those who are not taken by a deity go to the Fugue Plane, where they can either return to the Pool of Souls, and be reborn, or become Petitioners on the Fugue Plane. Those who worshiped the deities of the dead become something akin to "guards" on the Fugue Plane.
Which sort-of defeats the whole point of religion.
Hasbro is so busy tip-toeing around the issue trying to avoid creating a religous backlash, that they've turned religion itself into a meaningless joke.
Of course not, because it's alre--
*holds tongue*
Anyway, I like how religion in the Realms need not be boiled down to cost vs. benefit economics. To me, that would make it more meaningful.