Still reading? Okay, all that being what it is, I recently joined a 4e FR game, and I'm playing a Wizard who intends to cross-train (I've stopped calling it multi-classing) as a Cleric. I originally wanted him to worship a magic deity, a la Ioun from 4e core, but I can't find a single god that has a significant portfolio of magic beyond Corellon. I need advice, preferably from someone who's read the FRCG and knows who's covering what now in 4e. I know there's no "official" magic deity, but someone had to have gotten the fanbase, they didn't all turn atheist.
So, little backstory. My character's a human wizard, from Aglarond. Due to how well the Red Wizard info from the Rose Keep article meshed with my already developed character's history, I'm working on making him a Red Wizard. At the least, he's from a frontier-esque town/settlement in the eastern region of Aglarond. During his young life, shortly after he originally started training as a Cleric, he discovered and ancient tome that had been his Grandfather's, along with a few personal effects. Reading the tome, he had an epiphany, changed course, and started pursuing a career as a Wizard, training himself from his Grandfather's books.
What I want to do is reintegrate his cleric training by having him worship a deity that would be either geographically appropriate (a patron/matron of Aglarond), or a deity he would be drawn to through his magical studies.
Any suggestions?
-Using your example there, perhaps Oghma, the deity of knowledge.
-A Wizard doesn't have to worship the deity of magic (That would have been Mystra) simply because his "job" is Wizard.
Oghma, the god of knowledge. He's still around, and would suit the traditional sage and loremaster type mage.
Red Knight, goddess of tactics, for your tactical warmage type.
Or maybe Kossuth if you like the fire spells, and its just the thing for a Red Wizard.
(I haven't seen the new book, this is just my best guesses based on the current info threads.)
-A Wizard doesn't have to worship the deity of magic (That would have been Mystra) simply because his "job" is Wizard.
I completely agree. I guess I somewhat mistated that. Previously, magic-gods were a bit of a "go-to" for magic-users.
-Using your example there, perhaps Oghma, the deity of knowledge.
I'd seen his name dropped before, what do we know of him in 4e? This is actually pretty good, the reason I went for Ioun in core was because of his knowledge association.
Red Knight, goddess of tactics, for your tactical warmage type.
Red Knight has piqued my curiosity, do we have any knowledge of her?
I'd seen his name dropped before, what do we know of him in 4e? This is actually pretty good, the reason I went for Ioun in core was because of his knowledge association.
Red Knight has piqued my curiosity, do we have any knowledge of her?
In 4th edition... I don't know. I hazard a guess at "very little".
Oghma was a NN god of bards, knowledge, inspiration and invention (more in creativity, not technological). He taught the importance of knowledge and wisdom, and encouraged his follows to spread and preserve knowledge, education, the ability to read and write, and to always be truthful.
Red Knight was the LN goddess of strategy, planning and tactics and encouraged all these things in a war-context. She's all about Sun Tzu's Art Of War, really, and has a big chess theme.
Also, are any of the deities in FR a geographical patron at all?
Highly doubt so.
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Anyway, I suggest worshipping the kinda dead, but nevertheless cool god Karsus! :P
Oghma was a NN god of bards, knowledge, inspiration and invention (more in creativity, not technological). He taught the importance of knowledge and wisdom, and encouraged his follows to spread and preserve knowledge, education, the ability to read and write, and to always be truthful.
This is pretty close to what I was looking for. Also, is Corellon at all affiliated with magic, even to the degree he is in Core? Or is he really just King of the Faeries⁚?
* Every race had its own pantheon of deities for various tasks. Each had a god or goddess of magic, and humans had several, just in the Faerunian pantheon (there were many more in other lands).
Wizards never had to worship the "wizard god" or the "magic god". A wiz can worship Mask no problem and be all about larceny. A wiz may also be about warfare or merc stuff so Tempus or Torm may be his cup of tea.
Selune, Cyric, Bane, Oghma ect...
Wizards never had to worship the "wizard god" or the "magic god". A wiz can worship Mask no problem and be all about larceny. A wiz may also be about warfare or merc stuff so Tempus or Torm may be his cup of tea.
Yes, but this particular character, being a bit of a book-nose, would worship a knowledge/magic deity. I acknowledge this is not -the- rule, but it happens to apply in the case of my character.
I recommend you decide what is the driving interest or passion of your wizard. Do you have a goal other than to survive and become more powerful as a wizard?
If your wizard is unaligned, and is driven to gain ever greater knowledge, then Oghma would be a superb choice.
If your wizard is to be a mightly defender of the elves, Corellon would be a great choice.
If your wizard is focused on the enjoyment of adventure and risk taking, I would recommend Tymora.
If your wizard celebrates war and the pursuit of victory, then Tempus might be the best choice for you.
If your wizard celebrates life, perhaps you should go with Chauntea.
If your wizard is focus on fighting the Shar and her supplicants, Selune would be a great choice.
If you love sailing, worship Valkur. Etc, etc, etc.
Keith
The Red Wizards were never "good guys". Red Wizards were, to put it bluntly, leaders of the oppressive nation known as Thay, which wanted to dominate the world economically and militarily. They were a mageocracy, meaning that the Red Wizards lead the nation and that their order was the supreme power. They were also big time slavers.
All that being said... some bad things happened. Szass Tam, one of their most powerful leaders, a Necromancer and a Lich, schemed to have total control over the nation and to become a god... it did not work out as planned and the end result is the nation of Thay we see today.
The Red Wizards as they once were are no more, and the Red Wizards you see today are just remnants of what once was - they do not seem to be holding close to the old customs, however.
To answer your question on deities... Hoar has / had some influence in Aglarond and that may have grown or diminished over the past 100 years. He was known as The Doombringer, and was the god of revenge, retribution and poetic justice. His brand of justice focused less upon the laws, but rather their spirit, and had a very "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life" mentality.
There is also the small possibility that your character could worship one of the old Yuir deities as that is as close as you'll get to any patron deities of Aglarond. As well, Sharess absorbed the divine essence of one of those deities and she is the patron deity of hedonism, sensual fulfillment, festhalls and cats. Her titles are many: The Festhall Madam, the Lustful Mistress, Feline of Felicity, Succubus of Sensation, the Tawny Temptress, the Dancing Lady, Foe of Set, Mother of Cats. Festhalls in the Realms are just brothels like in the real world, except much more accepted.
My suggestion is to look over the Forgotten Realms deities, pick one that cleaves best to your character, and if you want to have a patron deity of Aglarond you'll always be able to work toward making your deity the patron deity of Aglarond in game.
I should point out, however, that the Red Wizards have long been enemies of Aglarond. This may have changed in 4E, but I am certain that many will still remember and hold old grudges. Their two nations were at constant war.
I completely agree. I guess I somewhat mistated that. Previously, magic-gods were a bit of a "go-to" for magic-users.
-Well, in the "old" way of doing things, this made a lot of sense, as Mystra was the source of magic. In my mind, it makes a lot of sense to venerate the source of your supernatural powers. For example, if your mother always makes your bed, it'd only make sense to thank her for doing it. Now that Mystra and the Weave don't exist, and spellcasters have some new, unexplained way of tapping into the power of the multiverse to cast their spells, there's that big "gap" that you are bringing up.
I'd seen his name dropped before, what do we know of him in 4e?
-We know that he exists, but that's really all. The 2e lore from Faiths and Avatars, and the 3e lore from Faiths and Pantheons should still apply. Things that aren't specifically mentions as being changed, we should assume that they are the same.
Red Knight has piqued my curiosity, do we have any knowledge of her?
-Same as above.
-A list of what deities exist in the 4-Gotten Realms can be seen HERE.
The deities in the Forgotten Realms are mostly focused on portfolios which do not map to geography nor uniformly to all interests. Even the old racial pantheons seemed to be blurring.
-Untrue, to a degree. Before the "Faerûnian" Pantheon was established, there existed various regional pantheons, such as the Netherese Pantheon, the Talfiric Pantheon, the Coramshite Pantheon, and so on. Obviously, the deities in these pantheons were mostly delegated to these areas of the world.
-Lore in Faiths and Avatars, Powers and Pantheons and Demihuman Deities discusses where the power bases of most individual deities are. For example, Siamorphe is a specific patron of Tethyr, and his/her worship is marginalized outside of Tethyr.
In the FR of today, there is no patron god/goddess of wizards, wizardry, magic, or spells. So, like others have said you need to choose a patron outside of your class based on your goals. While it would have been nice to leave 1 magic deity alive for patronage purposes (as every other class has the benefit of), the designers saw fit to take a different direction. Perhaps your wizard could be the first demigod to rise and take such a role in the new realms!
I'm all but decided on Oghma, pending a review of his entry from the FRCG/FRPG.
Also concerning the RWs. Did they retcon/handwave the previous opinions of the RWs? Or was it "revealed" that not all RWs are "of Thay" or what? Rose Keep seems to suggest that most people don't seem to have a very negative opinion of the (new) "average" RW. It kind of sounds like the RWoT were a party-within-a-party. There were Red Wizards, and then there were the Red Wizard of Thay. They flat out state that nearly every Capitol city of the Inner Sea has a Red Wizard enclave, and that many/most major cities around the Sea of Fallen Stars and Moonsea have them, as well.
Conjecture?
Did they retcon/handwave the previous opinions of the RWs? Or was it "revealed" that not all RWs are "of Thay" or what?
-This was explained.
-Szass Tam seized control of Thay (the old format of her governance was that there were different 'Zukirs', each one being a powerful Wizard specializing in a particular school of magic. Tam was the Zukir of Necromancy), and declared the Red Wizards running the various enclaves to be expatriates. At some point, he cast a powerful ritual designed to turn himself into a deity (This is probably the same one that Velsharoon cast, when he became a deity). Something did not work as intended, and Thay turned into a wasteland filled with Undead. Thus, the Red Wizards moved on to "greener pastures".
-The organization was centered in Thay, and originated in Thay, but obviously, not every single Red Wizard was from Thay, though they had to travel to the nation to learn their trade. Nor was every Red Wizard confined to Thay, as Red Wizard Enclaves can be found all over the place.
Therefore, the RWs of today are not the same. Also, since the RWs who fled Thay during the war were considered traitors, their descendants are also not considered "of Thay". Those remaining outside of Thay have continued their careers as merchants and have even allowed other wizards to enter in. Therefore, having 100 years pass and their magical traditions removed, most could be seen as less "evil" than before (even their appearance is no longer as intimidating). This woukd in turn lead to a greater acceptance by others.
-This was explained.
-Szass Tam seized control of Thay (the old format of her governance was that there were different 'Zukirs', each one being a powerful Wizard specializing in a particular school of magic. Tam was the Zukir of Necromancy), and declared the Red Wizards running the various enclaves to be expatriates. At some point, he cast a powerful ritual designed to turn himself into a deity (This is probably the same one that Velsharoon cast, when he became a deity). Something did not work as intended, and Thay turned into a wasteland filled with Undead. Thus, the Red Wizards moved on to "greener pastures".
-The organization was centered in Thay, and originated in Thay, but obviously, not every single Red Wizard was from Thay, though they had to travel to the nation to learn their trade. Nor was every Red Wizard confined to Thay, as Red Wizard Enclaves can be found all over the place.
Okay, that's kind of the feeling I was getting. So, I take it that, while individuals are welcome to hold grudges (especially in Aglarond, given the history) an individual Red Wizard isn't going to be needlessly subjected to prejudice, especially if he looks and acts nothing like the "RWoT of old." And, of course, having non-humans in your party can't hurt, either.
I know I'm asking some damned-n00b questions, is there by any chance a history I can put hands on (for free, please, I know about Grand History of the Realms, I don't have the cash right now). I'm basically trying to figure out if my character's hook is viable, at all.
A typical "old style" RW followed a magical tradition that focused on 1 primary school of magic. Each school had a zulkir in charge. In essence, they were a country of specialist wizards. Now, with the change of magic there are no schools of magic. Therefore, you can not have specialists per se. However, this is not to say that you could not take the powers and separate them into schools.
Therefore, the RWs of today are not the same. Also, since the RWs who fled Thay during the war were considered traitors, their descendants are also not considered "of Thay". Those remaining outside of Thay have continued their careers as merchants and have even allowed other wizards to enter in. Therefore, having 100 years pass and their magical traditions removed, most could be seen as less "evil" than before (even their appearance is no longer as intimidating). This woukd in turn lead to a greater acceptance by others.
This is extremely helpful, and pretty much sets up my character hook wonderfully.
Would you and/or Lord Karsus mind if I PM one or both of you to pick your brains a bit further without cluttering a thread? Or do either of you mind talking about it on here? I have a few questions, and I want to write a good backstory for my character...
Okay, that's kind of the feeling I was getting. So, I take it that, while individuals are welcome to hold grudges (especially in Aglarond, given the history) an individual Red Wizard isn't going to be needlessly subjected to prejudice, especially if he looks and acts nothing like the "RWoT of old." And, of course, having non-humans in your party can't hurt, either.
-Red Wizards are generally greeted with distrust, simply because of the history of the organization, and the culture of the Mulan (Native Thayvians are of this race). Mulan are very ethnocentric, and dismissive of other races and cultures as inferior. Obviously, this sort of thought process leaked into the organization itself. The Red Wizards' "mission statement" of domination of the world via economic and magical strength certainly didn't do anything to make others welcome them.
-That said, if the "new" Red Wizards are very atypical of the "old" Red Wizards, I'd see no problem with others not having ingrained distrusts towards them. And, of course, the actions of the Red Wizards goes a long way towards how the natives receive them. Act like a "good guy", and you'll be well received. Act like an ass, and you won't.
I know I'm asking some damned-n00b questions, is there by any chance a history I can put hands on (for free, please, I know about Grand History of the Realms, I don't have the cash right now). I'm basically trying to figure out if my character's hook is viable, at all.
www.geonomicon.com
-The website is broken into different categories, but you are going to want to see the History of Unapproachable East.
Would you and/or Lord Karsus mind if I PM one or both of you to pick your brains a bit further without cluttering a thread? Or do either of you mind talking about it on here? I have a few questions, and I want to write a good backstory for my character...
-Go ahead and start a thread in the Running the Realms sections. It's entire purpose is to discuss stuff like that! ;)
-The organization was centered in Thay, and originated in Thay, but obviously, not every single Red Wizard was from Thay, though they had to travel to the nation to learn their trade. Nor was every Red Wizard confined to Thay, as Red Wizard Enclaves can be found all over the place.
This is wrong. In the past all Red Wizards WERE from Thay. In fact, only those of Mulan blood could even become a Red Wizard, and thus if you were a Rashemi living in Thay and could cast magic, you could not be considered a Red Wizard. Most Red Wizards were from the nobility of Thay, as every child was tested for arcane ability at a very young age.
It was illegal, and a very serious crime to take on an apprentice that was not of Mulan blood. While it was an open secret that some did this anyway (most likely those at the enclaves), it was something that you'd try and keep secret otherwise you'd face serious repercussions. Thayan's strove to protect their secrets particularly their brand of circle magic which was really their key to power.
All of this has, obviously with the fall of Thay, changed and is no longer true in 4E.
It was illegal, and a very serious crime to take on an apprentice that was not of Mulan blood. While it was an open secret that some did this anyway (most likely those at the enclaves), it was something that you'd try and keep secret otherwise you'd face serious repercussions.
-That is happened means that it was, well, something that happened, and that all Red Wizards WEREN'T from Thay.
-I might have made that a little ambiguous, though, in my wording. I meant that more along the lines of a Red Wizard need not be from Thay be be able to become a Red Wizard in the sense that the candidate could be eligible for becoming a Red Wizard to begin with, but having grown up, lived, habituated somewhere other than Thay.
It was an open secret that it happened, but it's kind of like drugs in the real world. Sure, everyone knows that there are people who do drugs, but if they are caught they are punished according to the law. Likewise, everyone knows that there are Red Wizards who take apprentices that are not Mulan, but as soon as they are caught they are punished - likely with death.
I just wanted to make clear that this was a very prominent change in the Red Wizards over the course of the 100 Year transition from 3E to 4E. It is probably what changed the most about them.
Thats why I moved Thay and added the Scarlet Brotherhood from GH to their organization - it was a perfect fit.
They flat out state that nearly every Capitol city of the Inner Sea has a Red Wizard enclave, and that many/most major cities around the Sea of Fallen Stars and Moonsea have them, as well.
Conjecture?
In 2 years time, we learn that those 'innocent' enclaves scattered in every major city aren't so innocent.
Highly doubt so.
High Forest's got its own (Shiallia?), Red Knight is Tethyrian, having only ascended to godhood since the ToT. Uthgar is worshipped mainly by Uthgardt. The Mulhorandi and Untherite gods are definitely worshipped mainly in their respective countries. Loviatar is the state religion of Dambrath. That's just off the top of my head.
My PC Valencia (who starts multiclassing as warlord but will likely switch over to cleric later), still worships Mystra - or, more specifically, she stands for an aspect of Mystra that she feels is worth believing in: responsible use of magic. She does realize that her divine powers are granted by Selune, but she feels Mystra's laws are worth believing in, and she carries a symbol of Mystra to further the cause.
Loviatar is the state religion of Dambrath.
Not any more.
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-Untrue, to a degree. Before the "Faerûnian" Pantheon was established, there existed various regional pantheons, such as the Netherese Pantheon, the Talfiric Pantheon, the Coramshite Pantheon, and so on. Obviously, the deities in these pantheons were mostly delegated to these areas of the world.
I believe you are referring to what was (historically) true in the Realms, not what is now true in the Realms. There is no Netherese Pantheon now, just the worship of Shar, etc. You will notice if you read the FRCG that the FR deities are not broken into regional or racial pantheons as true in previous editions of D&D. The elves now know their goddess of Beauty is Sune, for instance. The deities of the Mulharondi Pantheon have all gone away. To be sure, some regions might prefer specific patron deities.
Keith
Just an aside.
Anyway, your regular question has been answered.
I believe you are referring to what was (historically) true in the Realms, not what is now true in the Realms. There is no Netherese Pantheon now, just the worship of Shar, etc. You will notice if you read the FRCG that the FR deities are not broken into regional or racial pantheons as true in previous editions of D&D. The elves now know their goddess of Beauty is Sune, for instance. The deities of the Mulharondi Pantheon have all gone away. To be sure, some regions might prefer specific patron deities.
Keith
-No, I am talking about what is true in the Forgotten Realms. Certain specific deities are found primarily, and deal primarily, with specific places. Their worship base is primary in specific places. Siamorphe in Tethyr. At'ar the Merciless (though not a true deity in and of itself) in the Anauroch. The Celestial Emperor in Shou Lung. You may find a stray worshiper of Siamorphe in Icewind Dale, or a stray worshiper of At'ar the Merciless in Turmish, or a stray worshiper of the Celestial Emperor in Calimshan, but those respective entities are primarily centered in Tethyr, the Anauroch, and Shou Lung, respectively.
High Forest's got its own (Shiallia?), Red Knight is Tethyrian, having only ascended to godhood since the ToT. Uthgar is worshipped mainly by Uthgardt. The Mulhorandi and Untherite gods are definitely worshipped mainly in their respective countries. Loviatar is the state religion of Dambrath. That's just off the top of my head.
Is this 3e or 4e? ‘Cause, in 4e I don’t see the divisions being made.
I, of course, have to wait until tomorrow to be sure, but…
I put a lot of thought into the OPs original question and the only definitive answer I could come up with was ME. Seriously, if it weren't for me magic as we know it might not work. So bow down before your true lord of magic... Bwaaa haaa haaa...
Blasphemy!!!
Bow to Bejebuz—BOW!!
I put a lot of thought into the OPs original question and the only definitive answer I could come up with was ME. Seriously, if it weren't for me magic as we know it might not work. So bow down before your true lord of magic... Bwaaa haaa haaa...
-Seriously. If anyone should be saying that, it's me. I mean, really, it's on my resume already...
-Seriously. If anyone should be saying that, it's me. I mean, really, it's on my resume already...
And we know that everybody lies on their resume.
-Seriously. If anyone should be saying that, it's me. I mean, really, it's on my resume already...
You had your chance, now step aside...
And we know that everybody lies on their resume.
-I don't. I'll use words to make things look better, though. Like, answering phones, making copies, filing, and mundane things like that become "Proficient in day-to-day clerical duties integral to office operations", or something like that.
You had your chance, now step aside...
-Mmmhmm...
