What do you think?
and in the soap opera theory i would also include major NPC.
elminster and simbul remind me the Little House on the Prairie.
really.
Currently Amaunator is at his zenith. Lathander has just set. So the dusk portfolio is about to come back.
Who it will be is a good question. Last one to hold it was Myrkul. His "essence" is trapped in the Crown of Horns. Myrkul could come back. But traditionally the portfolio of dusk was held by the god of Death, so Kelemvor could lay claim to it. Then again Cyric and Bane could make a play for it too.
The other player is Jergal, Kelemvor's seneschal. Jergal used to have the portfolios of both Death and Dusk. But he gave them to Myrkul like a hot potato before his cycle ended so as to escape his own impending death.
What will happen is anyone's guess. There are a lot of different ways this could all go down. One possible scenario was elaborated in Eric Boyd's Age of Worms adventure in Dungeon Magazine. Worth a look. There was a campaign guide to the Dungeon that had a lot of backstory about Jergal's motivations. The adventure is apocryphal. Not necessarily in canon. But it is a great adventure and worth a read.
I could see Cyric manipulating events so as to claim the portfolio in a bid to escape his imprisonment. I could see Bane killing a lot of people and gods in order to claim Dusk for himself. I could see Jergal reclaiming the portfolio and killing Kelemvor and taking back the Fugue Plane for himself. I could see Myrkul winning release from the Crown of Horns and causing trouble, possibly even killing off a few gods with his renewed powers. I'm sure he would also try to fight Kelemvor to get his old job back.
There's all sorts of directions that story could lead. Will be interesting to see if maybe they address this in the novels or future supplements.
Then again, there's no time table for the Dusk portfolio to rise. It could be 20 years or more before it happens. Amaunator may have some time to relax and enjoy his supremacy, but I wouldn't count on it. I imagine it will all go down sooner than later.
Classically, "tripartite" has meant 3-in-1. The tripartite nature of man, for example: body, soul and spirit. Or the tripartite nature of Christian theology: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The idea is that there are three separate things, qualities, or entities, but that they all are linked or combined to make a greater whole.
That would have been interesting with Amaunator, if they'd done it in a less sloppy way. Three portfolios (morning, high-sun, and dusk) in the same deity, with one portfolio in ascendence at any one time, that would have been interesting and cool. Even if one or two of those portfolios hibernate or go silent while one is fully expressed, totally interesting.
But it didn't really quite fit Amaunator (day) or Lathander (morning). And the "dusk" portfolio has been held by another deity (Jergal, then Myrkul). Still, someone thought the idea was super-kewl, so they cobbled together this slap-dash "history" that Lathander somehow morphed into Amaunator and that they were always really the same deity anyway. Except that this isn't exactly the same old Amaunator either.
Problem is, though, we got nothing to explain how or why the transformation took place. Did all of Lathander's worshippers suddenly start believing in the heresy? Or was there some celestial reason that caused the change? No telling. But myths about deities need reasons. Giant changes to deities need to be explained, otherwise they seem out of place and bizarre.
Did we (or the Realms) really need another good deity focused on law, when Torm is up there? What needful thing in Faerun caused the massive change to Lathander that justifies His loss, in their eyes?
And why does another deity carry the "dusk" portfolio, anyway, if they're going to say that it's tripartite? These are changes that currently make no sense.
If they're going for any remote kind of consistency that will make sense, Amaunator had better "reclaim" the dusk portfolio and morph into a slightly different and even more ancient deity (without losing the other two portfolios). To really be tripartite, and have it make some sort mythical sense, perhaps long ago there was a deity that represented all three portfolios in one. Then some sort of catastrophe allowed another deity to steal the dusk portfolio. Since then, the "deity of the sun and time" has been greatly out of balance. It might also explain why Mystryl needed to watch over time, as maybe Amaunator lost more than just the dusk portfolio.
The "tripartite sun heresy" would have been good, if the tripartite deity had been just one deity. Instead, it's more like "three semi-related portfolios that inadequately explain the mish-mash of Lathander/Amaunator."
It is good. Perhaps you are hung up on my use of the word “tripartite.” I didn’t use it in the sense of “triune” (three in one); the tripartite sun is not modeled on the Christian trinity and should not be evaluated as such. Rather, it should be seen as a set of three offices, rotating in a cycle, with at least one seat held vacant, each portfolio held in succession, dawn, day and dusk. Perhaps a better model is the presidency of the European Union where presidents are elected in trios with each of the three serving as president in succession, rotating through the office every 6 months.
Three portfolios (morning, high-sun, and dusk) in the same deity, with one portfolio in ascendence at any one time, that would have been interesting and cool. Even if one or two of those portfolios hibernate or go silent while one is fully expressed, totally interesting.
Huh? That’s what they did!
Still, someone thought the idea was super-kewl, so they cobbled together this slap-dash "history" that Lathander somehow morphed into Amaunator and that they were always really the same deity anyway. Except that this isn't exactly the same old Amaunator either.
I think you are misunderstanding. I agree with you that it isn’t the same Amaunator, but that’s not a bug, it’s a feature (so to speak). I think that the old Amaunator's god corpse still floats in the astral. Superficially it appears that the promulgation of a heresy caused Lathander to morph into Amauanator. There’s a few different ways to take this. It could be that the change was involuntary--instigated by a critical mass of belief in the heresy. In which case Lathander feels awkward and constrained in Amaunator’s shell. Alternatively, it could be that Lathander engineered the heresy and fostered it so that he could make the switch. Personally, I think Lathander exploited a loophole. He knew his cycle was drawing to an end and that he would have to die (or hibernate). I think he figured out that if he could turn into Amaunator himself, then he could claim the Day portfolio rather than someone else claiming it (say Horus-Re, or Cyric for instance). He was probably turned on to the idea by Jergal, who also managed to find a loophole. If Jergal hadn’t foisted the dusk portfolio off on Myrkul, then Jergal probably would have died instead of Myrkul. Jergal having demonstrated to Lathander that such a feat were possible led Lathander to try something similar, and he appears to have succeeded.
Problem is, though, we got nothing to explain how or why the transformation took place. Did all of Lathander's worshippers suddenly start believing in the heresy?
This was actually set up in 3e. It was explained in Power of Faerûn. The heresies had been around since the 1370’s (DR). Read Power of Faerûn for more details. It didn't come out of nowhere. Hints of this had been building since the 2e book Faiths & Avatars. Also the Age of Worms campaign in Dungeon Magazine had some details concerning this.
But myths about deities need reasons. Giant changes to deities need to be explained, otherwise they seem out of place and bizarre.
I strongly disagree with this. Perhaps some fans want everything to be explained, but I think a little mystery is a good thing. It allows for speculation and debate and for creative DM’s to craft plot points for their campaigns. While I certainly understand your desire to have explanations served out on a platter, I think it is more fun for explanations to be meted out slowly, in small bites, allowing the lore to percolate and simmer for the rich flavors to develop.
Did we (or the Realms) really need another good deity focused on law, when Torm is up there? What needful thing in Faerun caused the massive change to Lathander that justifies His loss, in their eyes?
Roughly one in 3 deities is going to be lawful. With the recent deaths of many deities, I think it is perfectly acceptable for a new lawful deity to pop up. Amaunator’s focus is not law, it is the sun. He just happens to be lawful. Nothing objectionable about that.
These are changes that currently make no sense.
These changes do make sense. I would suggest rather that you fail to comprehend them. Go back and read Power of Faerûn and perhaps that will help make things more clear to you.
While I agree with most of what you're saying (in terms of how lore should be handled and such), you're incorrect about Lathander and the heresy.
There were two separate heresies involving Lathander (that we knew of) in 3E. The first was the Risen Sun Heresy, which believed that Lathander is the ***reincarnated*** form of Amaunator. They didn't believe Amaunator died, but rather reincarnated into Lathander. They were tolerated by the Church of Lathander until they took their belief one step further into heresy.
That is when the Risen Sun heretics began to preach that the time of Lathander's transformation is nigh and Amaunator was about to return. This is the sect of heretics that Sunlord Daelegoth Orndeir belonged too.
Then there is the heresy which you are speaking of, which is completely separate from the Risen Sun Heresy. It is known as the Three-Faced Sun Heresy.
The members of the second heretical sect believe that the sun is a tripartite overdeity, with aspects of dawn, highsun, and dusk. They also believe that only two of the three aspects can be "seen" at any one time.
As you've pointed out they believe that during the Age of Netheril, Amaunator ruled as the aspect of highsun, while Jergal held the portfolio of dusk. After Amaunator faded away, Lathander appeared as the aspect of dawn, and Myrkul inherited the aspect of dusk from Jergal. Then during the time of Troubles Myrkul "died" which marked Lathander's brief moment of unchallenged dominance, which meant that the believers in the heresy thought that it heralded the rise of Amaunator.
However, they were divided. Some believed that it suggested that Lathander would become the new aspect of highsun and another will take his place as the aspect of the dawn, while others believed that a new deity would rise as the aspect of highsun.
It was the first group, the Risen Sun Heretics, that ultimately played the critical role in seeing Lathander transform into Amaunator. However, I do think that the Risen Sun Heretics most likely played off division of the Three-Faced Sun heretics to put themselves "over the top" so to speak. Both groups likely walked away believing that they were justified in their heretical beliefs when Lathander transformed into Amaunator. Even so, it is important that the two heresies are not conflated with each other - they are very much separate. The Risen Sun Heretics would still view the Three-Faced Sun Heretics as heretics of the faith. It is also unclear as to how many of Lathander's followers converted to the Risen Sun Heresy - a great many certainly did, but I am certain that in 4E there are still rather large pockets of hold outs who still regard the Risen Sun Heretics as Heretics even though Lathander ultimately did transform.
To be absolutely clear, "Amaunator" is dead as you said - this is a fact, we know his corpse is floating in the Astral. What is unclear is exactly how much of a role Lathander played in his own transformation as it was never fully established if he desired to transform into Amaunator or if it was something forced upon him by his faithful.
One of the points that Power of Faerûn was trying to raise was just how much influence the faithful can have upon a deity. This was something brought up regarding Lolth (more information found on page 48 in Power of Faerûn). Who fell first? The Drow or Lolth? If it was Lolth who fell first did her fall led to the fall of the Drow, or did the Drow fall first which in turn led Lolth to fall and turn against Corellon?
All of the information about the heresies can be found on page 47 and 58 in Power of Faerûn.
...Huh? That’s what they did!
When have all three portfolios been held by the same deity? Never, that's when.
This was actually set up in 3e. It was explained in Power of Faerûn. The heresies had been around since the 1370’s (DR). Read Power of Faerûn for more details. It didn't come out of nowhere. Hints of this had been building since the 2e book Faiths & Avatars. Also the Age of Worms campaign in Dungeon Magazine had some details concerning this.
Age of Worms was a Greyhawk campaign with a "here's what you could do" Realms adaptation written as a sidebar, it was not Realms canon by any means.
And given that you're mixing several Lathandarian heresies, which were separate, I think you should probably take your own suggestion and review them yourself.
Realms author and designer Eric Boyd had talked about this on these boards (the old boards) over the years and had some interesting insights into the cycle. Here are some interesting quotes he posted on the matter from a few years back:
"I had the Amaunator/Lathander/Myrkul cycle in mind back when Julia and I worked on Faiths & Avatars, and it finally bubbled out in Races of Faerun (although I tried to hint at it earlier). I think it's consistent across scources 2e and 3e, but perhaps not. In any event, the key is to remember that myths (may) lie and gods aren't human. By the latter point I mean that gods can and do embody multiple sometimes contradictory truths. That's why they are gods and not mortals."
and in another post Eric Boyd said:
"I hesitate to go beyond what is in print, as some future author (including me) may someday revisit the question and work only from those published sources and not my musings here. That said, think of a spinning 3-d triangle, looked at from the side. At any one time, you can see 2/3 faces, with 3 instants per revolution where only 1 face is visible. Who says Netherese Amaunator is the earliest incarnation of the sun god? Perhaps early in his history he was really a god of the dawn? Perhaps there was a god of dusk after Amaunator's fall but before Lathander's rise?
Have fun making it fit your campaign. :-)"
Jorunhast, you are correct that the material in Dungeon Magazine that Eric Boyd wrote for adapting the Age of Worms adventure to the Forgotten Realms is indeed not canon. But it certainly has interesting information regarding Eric Boyd's take on the matter and is worth a read.
My personal view is that Lathander somehow obtained information that some great cataclysm was going to befall the world in the future (Spellplague and all other such events). He may have not known when or what exactly what was going to happen, only that something BIG was going to happen and it was going to have dire implications.
As a result, he decided to plan ahead. He hedged his bets and nudged his followers toward embracing the Risen Sun Heresy which would empower him to face the challenges of the future. In effect he decided to "steal" Amaunator's stuff.
I see it as Lathander maturing. Before becoming Amaunator he was a deity of youthfulness and idealism. I see Amaunator as a deity with a great deal of compassion toward mortals, a strong sense of himself and his place in the world. Yet, the youthfulness and idealism has faded away. It is replaced with the wisdom of age, a sense of cynicism, and a pessimistic attitude. He hopes for the best, but plans for the worst. He has seen the worst and thus has learned to anticipate it, sometimes when it isn't warranted.
His faithful have likewise changed. They exist to push back the tide of darkness, by force if necessary, and ruthlessly pursue and punish the wicked.
I think 3E Faiths and Pantheon's painted a clear picture of Lathander's mindset pre-4E transformation:
"Lathander somewhat naively holds evil deities such as Bane, Cyric, Loviatar, and Talos personally responsible for the majority of Toril's ills. He particularly dislikes Shar, whom he views as an eternally corrupting force, the foul cancer at the heart of every shadowy intrigue against him and his church. Lathander believes the Dawn Cataclysm occurred because spies of the Lady of Loss secretly corrupted his efforts, and he is hatching plans to ensure that does not happen again.
....Lathander has, since the Time of Troubles, been working on some incarnations of the incantations and machinations that brought about that catastrophe [the Dawn Cataclysm] so long ago. .... With the return of Bane, many progressive deities believe that direct action must be taken to destroy evil once and for all, and that no unintended consequences of Lathander's plans could be as threatening to the world as simply standing by and doing nothing.
.....
Within the last year, Lathander's most trusted servants have received word of their deity's secret plan. Dawnbringers refer to a mysterious event known as the Deliverance, which will have important consequences for the world, especially for those who are antithetical to Lathanderian beliefs. No mortals know the details of the Deliverance, but the prospect of the Morninglord taking a more active role in the affairs of Toril fills his already excitable worshipers with an almost unsettling glee. They have initiated an aggressive proselytizing effort to encourage others to join their church before it is too late."
My personal view is that Lathander transforming into Amaunator was the first step in the Deliverance. The other steps are being carried out in 4E as his faithful attempt to wage a literal crusade against evil, hunting those who worship dark gods or commit foul deeds, and seeing them brought to justice (more often than not ending in execution). Lathander's goal is simple: Reshape the Pantheon, placing himself at the head.
I imagine his faithful are nearly fanatical viewing the world from a with-us-or-against-us viewpoint; a world where there is a great deal of black and white and very little gray. He and his faithful would take particular interest in uncovering Sharran cells, perhaps with so much zeal that it would make a Selunite question her own commitment to the effort.
Cities, towns, and villages run by the Amaunatori would be highly lawful places with a strong emphasis on proper "moral" codes. They'd be highly safe places, with a government focused on taking care of its people. Yet, it would also be a place where freedom is somewhat scarce. The Amaunatori's sole mission, after all, is the eradication of evil and thus must protect their charges against its ever corrupting influence. Freedom is a small price to pay to win the war.
This is how it works in my 4E Realms, at least.
And here we have this new Amaunator, who is really Lathander pretending to be the old Amaunator. After all, clear evidence of ancient Amaunator's dead body is still floating in the Astral.
Seems sorta... illegal? false? morally questionable? Perhaps it's not illegal or evil, as Sune apparently pretended to be Hanali Celanil for ages (which is odd, as lies are a form of ugliness). But it sure seems morally questionable, or even borderline wrong, crossing the line like that and lying to all of your worshippers. Aren't good deities supposed to be... I dunno... honest and truthful?
And for that matter... Sunlord Daelegoth, surely he must be dead by now. Given that he didn't ever apparently have a direct "thumbs up" from Lathander about the heresy, shouldn't Daelegoth be stuck in the Wall of the Faithless and the False? He was certainly False, in the greatest sense: not only did he embrace a heresy, but worked to convince the masses to believe it (and thereby trigger Lathander's metamorphosis), with duplicity supported by magic. Is that fake miniature permanent sun still hanging over Elversult? The one that keeps the city bathed in high noon, and actually blots out the real sun?
Quite frankly, this all seems more like an evil deity's approach rather than that of a good one. What if Lathander was secretly killed, and this new Amaunator is really just Shar? Or Cyric? Cyric was called the "Dark Sun" after all.
What if all (or most) of the good deities are dead in the 4E Realms, and we have left a handful of evil deities pretending to be those good deities. And they're quickly turning the old religions into morally gray, dark parodies of their former faiths, filled with lies, half-truths, and inconsistencies? That'd be more in line with the above, IMO.
Meldread, do you know of a 4e source that confirms this?
I know of no 4E source that confirms it. Since we know definitively that Amaunator's corpse WAS in the Astral, unless things have been retconned, I think it's safe to assume that it's still there. The exception to this rule would be, I think, if Amaunator's divine spark was somehow re-awakened by Lathander's faithful and then merged into Lathander.
Everything we have before us seems to point to Lathander transforming into Amaunator. Nothing says anything about Amaunator coming back.
What's more Amaunator was never a good aligned deity as he is in 4E. He is extremely lawful neutral and was almost as bad as Gargauth when it came to contracts. (The whole story about a misplaced comma and his proclamation of being a deity of time supports that.) I believe he was described as a deity that stuck to the letter of every contract signed unless the spirit was more appealing to him.
Personally, I think 4E Amaunator is still Lathander. The name change and transformation was just a way to explain why his portfolios were modified, and likely a personality shift as well. I'm rather certain that he lost a couple of portfolios and picked up rulership, the sun, law, and order from Amaunator.
When the Mulhorandi deities left I'm pretty sure Amaunator was an easy deity for those who had followed Horus-Re to turn too and worship as a replacement. I'd even say that Amaunator's personality is likely closely similar to that of Horus-Re.
I don't think the Netheril deity Amaunator would recognize his 4E incarnation. One thing that is certain to remain consistent between Lathander and 4E Amaunator is the emphasize on the good aspect of his alignment and his hatred of evil. I wouldn't be surprised if he had the portfolio of crusades in 4E.
As for lying being illegal or morally questionable... Well I doubt mortal conceptions of what is legal and illegal in regard to identity theft bothers a deity much. Especially a deity such as Lathander who at the time was Neutral Good at the time, and thus it was not an act outside of his alignment. Lying vs Truthfulness is a Law / Chaos act not a Good / Evil act.
There is also the question of whether Lathander believed it to be a lie or not. It goes back to the question of whether deities shape the worshipers beliefs or whether the worshipers shape the deities beliefs. It could be that enough people embraced the Risen Sun heresy with Daelegoth that it had Lathander uncertain himself.
Whether or not Amaunator's corpse was in the Astral at the time is irrelevant. The Risen Sun Heretics believed that Amaunator died, and that Lathander was his reincarnation. Finding a corpse would not undercut that belief, simply support it.
If Lathander himself was uncertain as to whether Daelegoth and the Risen Sun Heretics were telling the truth, then as more people converted to the heresy Lathander himself could potentially become more convinced of it himself.
In effect, it makes it a self-fulfilling prophecy.
My personal belief is that Lathander set things in motion himself leading up to what was to be called the Deliverance. It was a risky move, but Lathander was not above risky moves. He likely nudged Daelegoth in the direction he wanted, and after that things were out of Lathander's control. Hence why it was a risky move.
Was the outcome to Lathander's liking? Who can say. Lathander is Amaunator now, and if a deity reflect the beliefs of his or her faithful, then the deity is certainly happy.
If Amaunator's body were to be found there, great, that settles a lot of questions.
However, if someone were to go to the Astral and not be able to find the body it would create more questions. It could mean that the original Netherese Amaunator had returned (though I share your opinion that this is doubtful). It could mean that Lathander had absorbed the body and the residual divine energy within. It could mean that Lathander had hidden the corpse somehow in order to cover up the con he is trying to pull. Or maybe someone else hid the corpse to cover up a secret.
I think all those possibilities are intriguing. I know which answer I favor, but the questions are still hanging out there unanswered.
I agree. The only thing we can confirm with absolute certainty is that Amaunator died at some point in the past. His corpse was canonically located in the Astral.
I personally think that Lathander probably absorbed the residual divine energy within the corpse when he transformed into Amaunator. Such an event would make sense considering that he would have to have a rather strong change in personality with the new portfolios. It would likely also destroy the corpse in the Astral, effectively cutting off any attempt for the "real" Amaunator to return. (Though that doesn't rule out a Bane-style return - never count a deity out!)
Lathander (to me at least) cannot remain the same personality wise and also have the portfolios of law, order, the sun (or possibly just highsun), and most likely rulership as well. I don't believe he picked up the portfolio's of bureaucracy and contracts, which were the two remaining portfolios held by Amaunator.
Lathander was always pretty "hot-headed." As the god of beginnings, he was always starting things. He wasn't so good at finishing them though. If I recall in one of the novels Chauntea remarked something to the effect that Lathander was always leaving off things and heading out to start new projects. Lathander seems to have a strong case of ADD.
We are told in Faiths & Avatars that Amaunator died of neglect. He was not multi-pantheonic, so when Netheril fell, belief in him dried up and faded away. His god-corpse appeared in the Astral about a thousand years after Netheril fell, so about the mid to late 600's DR.
Lathander was worshipped in Athalantar which was founded in 183 DR. The people of Athalantar were Talfiric. It is almost certain, then, that Lathander was part of the Talfiric pantheon which became the predominant pantheon of the Western Heartlands and the North.
The Talfiric pantheon merged with the pantheons of the Luskans, the humans of the High Forest, migrating Chondathans and other faiths to form the greater Faerûnian pantheon that exists today.
Some sages have suggested that the Dawn Cataclysm is merely a metaphor to explain the changes that happened after Netheril and Jhaamdath fell and the gradual emergence of a Faerûnian super-culture as disparate human cultures began to mix.
This can be so strong an effect that eventually the god is forced to choose between truths of mysteries he's spinning inprinted with his own signs. Lathander has made this choice, and being the brash youth in for new beginnings he chose to transend his old self towards the image his faithfull was giving him.
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One thing I remember from the Dawn Cataclysm is that its unanswered when exactly it took place. I stole some ideas from candlekeep for my campaigns explenation for the Dawn Cataclysm event. This grand plan to become the leader of the Fearunian meta-pantheon could all have been devised long before Lathander's rise (fom the ashes of Jhaamdath which is around 200 years prior to Dale Reckoning in my campaigns) by Amaunators bureaucratic and calculating mind.
Amaunator during the Netherese high days had a grudge against Mystryl. During the rise of the Netheril empire Amaunator had a sense Mystryl was becoming to powerful and he wanted to to curb some of her influence.
He started bullying Mystryl with semantic technicalities about the Time portfolio and his supposed claim to it according the scriptures of his dogma. Then he began sending heresy inducing visions to powerful mages with the hope they would dare the unthinkable. And lo and behold, Karsus was stupid enough to try it the Karsus Avatar spell.
But Amaunator didn't expect Mystryl would go so far to save the weave. By sacrificing herself to temporarily snuff out all magic and save the weave for later, she doomed Amaunators Netherese faithful.
With his powerbase completely and literally crashed, battered and scattered on Torils surface, nearby planes and oceans he was forced to be very drastic to stop his fading away. He needed worship now and then. He used a plan to claim ownership of the Bastion of Unborn Souls, the incarnum source of all souls located around Torils ethereal, using a ritual to predestinate all the proto-souls to become faithfull Amaunathori by pre writing their destiny.
Ao obviously had to step in there, forcibly remove Amaunators link to the Bastion and had removed a large part of his divine essence in the proces. He further punished Amaunator severly, stripping him of all written and recorded records of his existance, making the waning proces of Amaunator so severe he instantly turned comatose and started fading further and further into the Astral.
Ao then took Amaunators divine spark and instilled it into new protospionic entity Lathander, who ascended to take the Dawn part in the Sun cycle with youthfull vigor.
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The Amaunator of the Netheril era was a very different beast from the one in the post Spellplague Realms. The old Amaunator displays basic survival behaviour in the face of undeniable destruction: devize the most self convicing plan and execute it to its fullest for as long as you can muster or untill you succeed.
It's fairly obvious the new version of Amaunator isn't in a situation as desperate as that of his olden days. And he has far fewer rivals that oppose his schemes (No more Azuth, Mystra and Savras calling him out for his farfetched plans). Choosing to firmly stand in camp Lawful has earned Amaunator a great deal of initial trust. This trust he will use to eventually diplomatically work as much decrees amongst his "allies" that they will bind them legally to his control. Its a bureacratic style but the Dawn Cataclysm will be completed one way or the other. Its not entirely clear what motivates Amaunator, and he likes it to stay that way. He's become more cryptic than before...
New Amaunators faithfull behave differently aswell. While Lathander was very succesful diety under peasantry and common folk, the evangelistic parts of Amaunators clergy focus their messages mostly on guilds and the cityfolk that run them. Its common for merchant princes, guild leaders, judges and other authorative figures to quote scriptures and lawtexts from theatrizes on Amaunators dogma. The Deliverance essentialy was a useful way for Amaunator to hold onto Lathanders worshipbase and he started his ascension at running speed so to speak, with easy acces to worship from countless commoners and rural folk already familiar with the Morninglords divine infrastructure.
This is the new Amaunators strength, his worship base is stable and growing. It won't be long and he has the most faithfull across Fearuns surface again and he will make the grab for ultimte power. The Time domain.
I do find the thought appealing that Lathander may not have had any control over his transformation. For a runaway heresy to have gained such wide credence that it altered Lathander in so fundamental a way is a very cool concept. And one which may very well prove to be true.
While I am also intrigued with the alternate take that Lathander engineered it in Machiavellian manner, I would be happy with either mechanism.
And I don't necessarily need an answer either. The mystery of it is so much fun to ponder and debate, that any kind of official resolution they could publish would probably disappoint me a little bit.
I can't do the piece justice here, it should be read to be appreciated.
The only thing I can add is that Realms designer Eric L. Boyd opined on these boards on several occasions that some events surrounding gods take place in "mythological time" which has no direct correlation to chronological time. Events that transpire only between gods, away from direct mortal experience cannot therefore be dated accurately. They could have happened a few hundred years ago, a few thousand years ago, or at the dawn of time. But they don't necessarily have to have happened in a flow of time that can be tied to the way that time flows on Toril.
He stressed that certain ramifications of these godly events may have impacts on Toril that can be dated, but the godly events themselves cannot be. It is sort of an Einsteinian relativistic view of mythological time that abandons the notion of simultaneity.
For example: at some point Tyche split into Beshaba and Tymora, but the schism in Tyche's church unfolded over hundreds of years with some churches still worshiping Tyche until the 700's DR.
Likewise, some datings place the War of Araushnee with the Seldarine at circa -30,000 DR, but the Crown Wars which saw the descent of the drow happened circa -10,000 DR. By some reckonings the casting out of Araushnee was simultaneous with the descent of the drow (as above so below) and by other accounts, Araushnee was cast out after the descent of the drow as the myth evolved in reaction to the events that took place down on Toril.
According to Eric's mythological time theory, no definitive dating of the event is possible, or more precisely all datings are equally valid. Mythological time is orthogonal to chronological time, not running in parallel to it.
I know that some designers argued forcefully for establishing a date certain for the Dawn Cataclysm in lore, but that Eric argued equally forcefully, and persuasively, that a canon date should not be established for the above reasons. His theory won out (and may have had the support of Ed Greenwood himself, though I don't know for sure).
I think this theory also embodies the notion that, not only are gods subject to the beliefs of their worshipers, but even such details as their personal history are not fixed and may be changed by a critical mass of belief by mortals. This notion that a god's personal timeline could be changed retroactively by the belief of their worshipers may seem antithetical and paradoxical to many Realms fans, but I think that is indeed the correct interpretation. There is little, if anything, about a god that is not dependent on the belief of worshipers: powers, appearance, personality, demeanor, all these things can be determined or changed at the whim of a critical mass of believers. Such changes may even be effective retroactively, propagated backwards through time into the past. Or could even embody multiple, conflicting truths at different places and times.
For instance, in some geographic regions of Faerûn Tyche was still alive and answering prayers of her faithful as late as the 700's DR, while she was already dead and split into Beshaba and Tymora in other areas of Faerûn--it could be said that Tyche had not died yet in those areas. Or maybe it could be better described that her death occurred in mythological time, which was aligned differently to terrestrial time at different points depending on geography and zones of belief.