I haven't been on these forums for some time, but late last year I asked about a seemingly contradiction in 4th edition Realms. The elves, with their life spans of 200 years, and 300 years for Eladrin, seem to have real trouble becoming High Mages (as in the web download for Epic Paths in the Realms). Most won't even be considered for training as a High Mage until they're 300 years old. Haven't most died of old age by then?
So, my question is: have there been any update on the elven life spans in the Realms lately?
Cheers,
Eirik
Oh well, no official update then?
E.
And I'll just live that be for now.
I don't know if he ever pointed-out the 'age thing' in particular, but his attitude seemed to be "if it doesn't work for you, or FR, just ignore it".
Which is damn good advice, IMHO.
As an aside, I did note a 'toning down' of the usage of 'core terminology' in the second setting book - the Player's Guide. I don't know if they were correcting their earlier error of beating us over the head with it, or it's just coincidental, but it seems to me that the less they try to force the new 4e terms on FR, the easier it is to swallow everything.
Its kind of like being poked over and over and over again... we know the stuff is there, but don't keep bringing it to our attention, almost as if they were trying to annoy us with it.
And I'm not suggesting they were - I'm sure it was just certain people wanted the new 'buzz words' inserted into the text every chance they got, and they went a bit overboard with it.
it reduces the mystique of elves, I like the tolkienesque approach, nobles should be immortal
My favorite fantasy setting in 3.5, Iron Kingdoms (RIP) had a good explanation of shorter lived elves in it's back story, and that I was all well and good. But when 4th edition came along, they should have written something about the life spans of elves in the Realms, I think. It all seems to contradict other Realmslore (I don't read the novels, but I pay attention)
Anyway, I like the new Realms and all. It only seems a bit silly to force the everything Core on the Realms at all times..
E.
I don't understand whats with the elven maximum age reduction that happens with every edition
it reduces the mystique of elves, I like the tolkienesque approach, nobles should be immortal
-I, personally, don't want them to be immortal, but I do prefer the 1,000 year about life-span.
-I, personally, don't want them to be immortal, but I do prefer the 1,000 year about life-span.
As do I. Not least because it helped to cement the differences in archetypal character between Humanity, Dwarves and the others. The "long-view" and the "I'll do this as a hobby for a couple of hundred years" ideas amused me and inspired more than a few character ideas. I was sad to see this reduction.
Personally I'd just handwave the shorter lifespans as an odd backlash from the collaspe of the weaves.
At least, thats how I looked at it before. Now, with the Feywild 'closer' to Toril then ever, that makes no sense, since the Elves should be living LONGER, not less.
Unless it's like Cancer... they are being 'bombarded' with 'lifeforce' now, and its aging them more rapidly. A bit hokey, but it is an explanation, of sorts (kinda like radiation-sickness).
I don't mind the Halfling thing - I've already explained away that it was the massive Tsunami that inundated (and flooded) Luiren - a wave that started when Halruua exploded, and the waters were filled with wild, magical energies that warped the Halflings into their new form (and perhaps several others, like Gollums and what-not).
I understanf completey their (the designers) need to make the races more realistic for the rules - after all, an adolescent Elf of only a hundred or so should know more about magic then most humans... and yet does not.
If Elves are as old as they are supposed to be, then they would be Tolkienesque, meaning you shouldn't be able to play them as PCs - they would be WAY too powerful. halflings, on the other hand, should be way too week. Picture yourself in a sword fight with mini-me, or better yet, a bare-fisted brawl with him... its ridiculous.
Thats why they changed it - to have it make more sense.
The other side of the coin is THIS IS FANTAY!!! Why the heck does it need to make sense?
Next they'll say Dragons can't fly... because ya' know, they CAN'T!!!
Fantasy is supposed to be just that, and although I understand their reasoning behind the changes, I still feel they were unnecessary.
On a world where unfettered Demons can gate in as many other Demons as they want, and moons fall from the sky doing little to no damage, why-of-why are they seeking realism amonst the Player-races?
If Elves are as old as they are supposed to be, then they would be Tolkienesque, meaning you shouldn't be able to play them as PCs - they would be WAY too powerful. halflings, on the other hand, should be way too wek. Picture yourself in a sword fight with mini-me, or better yet, a bare-fisted brawl with him... its ridiculous.
Thats why the changed it - to have it make more sense.
Really? I mean most adventurers are suggest to be at around the century mark, right? Only just out of adolescence (in a primarily Elven community). If you fit that in with the unhurried, scattered approach to study detailed in the ideas I suggested above then you have no real reason why an Elf should be a comparative avatar of posterior-section-agitation. I mean, for all that we know, your character might have been studying poetry, song or pretending to be a flower for 50 years of that time.
Considering that possibility and the fact that in the PHB it specifies that Humanity is more "ambitious, driven, pragmatic" than the other sentient races I find it quite difficult to accept that line of logic as a good reason for this change.
...not that I understand the change either. Just one of those little details that bugs me for some reason.
They mentioned someone having brought their child to work (at WotC), who was very young (six?) and was about three feet tall, and everyone had a good laugh about how riduculous it was to imagine someone so tiny holding their own in any sort of confrontation.
And thats basically when they decided to change it.
I don't agree with that change, I was just saying how I understand the 'why' behind it.
Well, I wasn't supporting it, just explainig it from their point of view, from what I read in those preview guides.
Drat. I was hoping for a discussion with someone who supported it and understood it so that I could try and get my head around it too. Thanks anyway, MT.
On that basis...
I have found that a lifespan of 750+ works for my games, and does not put any real strain on the old Realmslore.
So do you have any insight on how the designers mayhave squared the 300 year lifespan with the old Realmslore? Or do you think they have attempted to retain the lifespans in the same way as Eladrin having pupils in the Realms i.e. without really saying so.
So do you have any insight on how the designers mayhave squared the 300 year lifespan with the old Realmslore? Or do you think they have attempted to retain the lifespans in the same way as Eladrin having pupils in the Realms i.e. without really saying so.
I don't think they even bothered, and I don't think this is actually a failing. They are really kind of vague on it and I believe it was intentional. The shortened lifespans in core are something MT went into, and I agree with his thinking on it. As to how it relates to Realmslore, bear with me a moment. New gamers fresh to the Realms will not have a basis, or even necessarily a desire to tie in what we view as the meat of Realmslore. For them having an eladrin/elf living 300 years, is no big deal. In fact the 2000 year old Gold Elf might be much more of an issue. For those of us who know better or rather more, such a shortened lifespan could wreak havoc with the history of the Realms. Well this I think is the reason they left it particularly vague. It allows Realms material to be ported over to other settings without any potential problematic issues, and at the same time leaving core concepts open to receiving the "Get bent" admonishment open.
I truly believe they wanted to leave it open for each DM to decide what works best for his game. I also don't think we will see an official decision on this.
I truly believe they wanted to leave it open for each DM to decide what works best for his game. I also don't think we will see an official decision on this.
I had thought this might be the way it would be in the gane. Thank you for your answer.
I wonder how it will play out in the novels.
Elves are all about magic, right? In fact, they are magic in most settings, and they have lost a bit of that in D&D. Anyhow, We know Elves need food and water just like everyone else, and there is also the little-known fact that Elves also require sunlight (although they can do without for long periods of time... but not indefinately). What if part of their nature was a need for magic?
What if they absorbed residual magical energy - a holdover from their 'Fey' heritage - and the Weave was acting like a giant power-booster?
Looking at it that way, the new age limitations are the way it SHOULD HAVE BEEN, if the artifical construct that was the Weave hadn't inundated the world with high amounts of magical energy.
No more Weave means the Elves don't live as long now... and could be why they all chose to abscond back to the Feywild (where there is a near-limitless supply of magical energy).
Also, by similar thinking, it could have been the presence of Evermeet - a small piece of Faerie taken through time and 'grown' on Toril. Once Evermeet returned to Faerie (perhaps because it lost the Weave as an 'anchor'), Elves (and Eladrin) that stayed behind lost the ability to reach truly venerable ages.
In Faerie, Fey beings - including Elves - are near-immortal, and they were able to enjoy that to some degree with Evermeet on Toril - now they can't.
So blame it on the missing Weave, or missing Evermeet, or some combination of both, but if you need an IG explantaion, there you go.
Also, by similar thinking, it could have been the presence of Evermeet - a small piece of Faerie taken through time and 'grown' on Toril. Once Evermeet returned to Faerie (perhaps because it lost the Weave as an 'anchor'), Elves (and Eladrin) that stayed behind lost the ability to reach truly venerable ages.
-Evermeet was said to be a piece of Arvandor, not the Plane of Faerie.
In Faerie, Fey beings - including Elves - are near-immortal, and they were able to enjoy that to some degree with Evermeet on Toril - now they can't.
-Where's it say that?
I think they will probably be very vague about there also, or we might get an official answer that would hopefully fall in line with the old lifespans. The most likely occurrence in my opinion would be a continued refusal to commit.
I would have to agree with your "most likely occurence" here, even though I don't wish to. I would hope for a "In the Realms it is still 750+ years" however my hopes have a nasty habit of being reversed (0 out of 3 favoured gods surviving, and 6 out of about a dozen favoured characters that could have possibly survived...etc not getting into it). So in this case no news is good news. No solid answer means no distateful one. Although if that vagueness filters down to constraining the way books are written I will be peeved.
So blame it on the missing Weave, or missing Evermeet, or some combination of both, but if you need an IG explantaion, there you go.
Actually I am not so interested in "how it might happen" In Game (not least because I don't have a game at the moment) but the effects of it happening (that we haven't seen reflected in the histories presented to us now).
Assuming some form of narrative causality (I know, an insane premise
) what would happen to the Elven peoples if the spellplague, or some agent during those times, did cause the shortening of their lifespan by up to two thirds?For example, if someone came up to me one day and told me (as a male living in the UK) that instead of the 77 years I thought I was getting, I should have, in fact, been dead 2 years ago (26 instead of my current 28 years) I would have been in denial and then aghast and then... I can't even imagine it. If you told that to an entire people then you would fundamentally change the nature of that people and certainly their society. It may even collapse.
Seeing as we haven't seen this described, the I suggest that there is either "plot armour" going on here, a retcon or the lifespans will not change in the Realms (as opposed to core).
Not that this is any sort of 'official' type answer, but I just had this pop into my head and I thought I'd share...
Elves are all about magic, right? In fact, they are magic in most settings, and they have lost a bit of that in D&D. Anyhow, We know Elves need food and water just like everyone else, and there is also the little-known fact that Elves also require sunlight (although they can do without for long periods of time... but not indefinately). What if part of their nature was a need for magic?
What if they absorbed residual magical energy - a holdover from their 'Fey' heritage - and the Weave was acting like a giant power-booster?
Looking at it that way, the new age limitations are the way it SHOULD HAVE BEEN, if the artifical construct that was the Weave hadn't inundated the world with high amounts of magical energy.
No more Weave means the Elves don't live as long now... and could be why they all chose to abscond back to the Feywild (where there is a near-limitless supply of magical energy).
Also, by similar thinking, it could have been the presence of Evermeet - a small piece of Faerie taken through time and 'grown' on Toril. Once Evermeet returned to Faerie (perhaps because it lost the Weave as an 'anchor'), Elves (and Eladrin) that stayed behind lost the ability to reach truly venerable ages.
In Faerie, Fey beings - including Elves - are near-immortal, and they were able to enjoy that to some degree with Evermeet on Toril - now they can't.
So blame it on the missing Weave, or missing Evermeet, or some combination of both, but if you need an IG explantaion, there you go.
To me, the 4e PH eladrin aging doesn't seem impossibly contradictory to previous lore. It says around 250 they begin to feel some aging, which could be interpreted as a human in their 30s...some changes, but not necessarily becoming "old" yet. It also says most elves ::cough:: eladrin live over 300. In 1st world countries, most humans live over, what, 50 and up to/ending around 75?? There's still some room to go, so you could stretch PH eladrin over 300 and up to 450/500 without breaking the numbers there, no? Plus, a) does the ratio have to be the same between humans and eladrin (lol....do eladrin get the same number of mammalian heartbeats?), b) there're always exceptional individuals who live longer (700, 900, etc.), and c) provided this stretching is plausible but still wanting it's just a tiny bump more to get 'em where they're goin'.
/end
Anyway.....for my FR I simply assume things are the same as previous lore and the aging (including childhood) of core PH eladrin and FR eladrin are just different. No big deal. HOWEVER, if I were to adopt the new core aging in my FR then I'd probably use the above in-game explanation because it totally ROCKS MY SOCKS! :D
PS (Oh, and in the spirit of 4eFR love/hate debating, if the goodly eladrin aren't living as long in 4e I couldn't help thinking maybe Shar did it!?! Hehe.)
PS (Oh, and in the spirit of 4eFR love/hate debating, if the goodly eladrin aren't living as long in 4e I couldn't help thinking maybe Shar did it!?! Hehe.)
-Spellplague.