I like the 4E FR. It still feels like FR to me (whatever that means). Even though they goofed IMO with the whole handling of Mask/Shar and should have handled it in sourcebooks and not novels I relalize certain series make money for WOTC so they have to keep it alive.
Even after all that I still am more than fine with what they did with the Realms.
Even though the thread is titled: "anyone else like 4ed realms?" be prepared to get many folks who do not like the new stuff to chime in.
I like that they nerfed the Harpers and Mystra's power rangers, er chosen.
I have nothing against the RSE itself and I actually like what they did with the gods (mostly) including the Tyr/Helm affair. I don't like what they did with Thay or the return of Netheril. I found returned Abeir hit and miss, replacing Maztica was ok and I like the Genasi but squashing Mulhorand and floating islands not so fussed.
Essentially it's like every campaign I've bought, it has things I like and things I don't. I've not been a die hard fan of FR since 3e started as IMO the changes in feel and approach were not to my liking, I don't think 4e goes far enough or in a direction I would choose to really change that but to my surprise it has given me a few campaign ideas so who knows.
Just to note Returned Abeir would have scored more points if they actually gave us some details about it, far to light on info.
:evillaugh
Just to note Returned Abeir would have scored more points if they actually gave us some details about it, far to light on info.
I consider this a perk, not a bug. It means (were I to run FR), I could put whatever I want there without contradicting anything. While canon is largely a crutch, I like my campaign settings to give me basic outlines and frameworks at let me fill it in, as opposed to naming every tree and rock on the planet.
FR4 seems much more accessible to the casual or new player; not so much clutter, no hundreds of gods, less unnecessary minutia, and more room for adventure.
I consider this a perk, not a bug. It means (were I to run FR), I could put whatever I want there without contradicting anything. While canon is largely a crutch, I like my campaign settings to give me basic outlines and frameworks at let me fill it in, as opposed to naming every tree and rock on the planet.
FR4 seems much more accessible to the casual or new player; not so much clutter, no hundreds of gods, less unnecessary minutia, and more room for adventure.
Yes except it's so bare bones it barely has skeletal structure. It barely hints at what appears to be a potentially interesting back story.
Just my opinion, it only irritates me because it interests me ;) .
They had to mess some good stuff up to make it happen, but all that stuff they did works. Players have solid ground to build their characters up from (including good back stories) and the setting meshes well with the 4E mechanics.
Some things are still kind of wonky (absence of the Weave vs. found magic items from before the Spellplague) but for the most part it's been real easy for me to run a detailed little adventure based off of H1: Keep on the Shadowfell in the mountains between Cormyr and Sembia with no problems.
Call me crazy, call me a traitor, call me whatever. I really enjoy playing D&D in the 4E Realms.
I like leaving the house every other Monday to go to game with just two rulebooks (FRCG, FRPG) and a binder with my adventure and DM’s screen in it.
I don’t even need to bring the core rulebooks since my buddies have them.
Contrast this with the veritable wooden log of books I carry around for my 3.5 Realms game.
I like the simplicity of it. I’m a very experienced DM and I enjoy making stuff up as I go along. Having just two and three page explanations in the FRCG of the places in the Realms I like to use makes it easy for me to build on the information therein.
I like the challenge of it. When things change in the Realms, it puts players and DMs and Realmsfans (that don’t play D&D) on the spot. Some don’t like to see changes, sure. But I do when it’s a wholesale set of changes due mostly to the advancement of time.
I like returned Abeir.
MarkusTay has asked me in another thread why I wanted to go “down south” in my 4E Realms game.
Two big reasons are Tymanther and Akanûl. A third is the Abolethic Sovereignty, which conveniently lay in between Cormyr (where my campaign is at) and those two realms.
I enjoy the change of flavor. When you’ve gamed in the Realms as long as I and my players have, a change of pace is very enjoyable. It lets us treat places and things we “know” about the Realms as unknowns again. Add to that our choice to treat both our ongoing 3.5 and 4E Realms games as being in the same Realms instead of separate and you have an additional layer of uncertainty owing to the unique path our 3.5 game has already taken.
That’s fun because discovering something new or discovering a big change in the Realms during play is always a blast and so a big motivation to play.
But most of all I like the advanced timeline. That’s got to be one of best fuels for creative DM thought out there for DMs that are somewhat familiar with the Realms. It basically pushes you to consider the new setting from a “what’s transpired?” point of view.
When Manshoon the vampire has lived for a century through the Spellplague, consolidated his power over Westgate and the surviving Zhentarim, what does that mean? How did he do it? What secrets of magic and of returned Abeir has he uncovered? Is he dealing with the Eminence of Aurant or the Ironfell Council? Has he restarted any of his long term plots that were thwarted when all of his clones awoke? Have any of those plots come to fruition?
Basically, Manshoon being Manshoon, what can he have accomplished in 100 years beyond what the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide tells us?
My bet is: A LOT.
That’s what’s so fun about it for me as a DM. All these ideas and possibilities constitute fun thought exercises and are the seeds of future adventures and campaign arcs.
I invite those of you who have pondered things as I have to include your thoughts here.
I invite those of you who enjoy playing in the 4E Realms to post why you enjoy it, especially if your reasons are different then mine.
Lastly, let’s be careful not to let an edition war ignite here. Webster has the power to close threads and he will use it if we give him reason to.
I would have to say - once I completely detach my feelings about FR - that like any setting, some parts I like, and other parts I do not. There are a few gems buried in there, if you are willing to dig for them.
But I can say the same for nearly any setting I know of.
Since my gamers know where I work and sleep...I will not be running any 4ED ...I value my skin intact thank you very much!:D
I do have hopes for 5ED Realms...but, as they say in all the best stories...that is another story.
So I loved the 4E Realms from the moment I heard about them. We started our 4E campaign soon after the core rulebooks came out, well before the FR books themselves came out, and we'll be starting the paragon tier on Monday. We've got players who've hated the Realms who are enjoying this campaign. That hundred year jump and post-apocalyptic feel gives it that post-Roman, early Dark Ages feel that I really love. It still has the richness and depth of all that accumulated history, so it still feels like a whole world that people have lived in and inhabited, but now it's a place where that's the past. The present lies open, and in need of heroes. No more wondering why the super-powered NPC doesn't just do the quest himself--the world is dangerous enough now for the PC's to be the heroes, the way it should be.
As a whole though, I have liked it so far (but it could also be the group!).
Overall I'm running three games in the realms and everyone is enjoying themselves. Especially me.
While I agree with your core point, I feel that the reality is its pretty mixed with many other forums I read (that aren't this one) being fairly friendly to the new realms. My players all like it as well and it serves as a good way of forming a character background and concept. In general though, this is still very difficult to prove and is a bit of a stretch without proving anything. While certain people repeatedly declare gloom and doom without backing it up, it's still just as invalid to do it the other way.
18DELTA (The Hall Monitor of Cyric) :P
I just dunno about the timejump, the removal of many Gods, and how many of my favorite characters I loved to read about are now either dead from old age, or dead from some stupid plot device.
Great product, bad flavor? Does that make any sense?
Personally I feel they should have made Abeir a separate setting - own book, etc. That would have allowed for a bit more background for Faerun, and Abeir itself could have been made more interesting (and possibly more unique as well - a primordial based setting offers a possibility for a very different take on things, but that option wasn't chosen).
Gomez
Calimshan, the appearance of genasi, so that it not so similar to Zakhara (superficially). However, I dislike the heavy changes of the old Calishite society to introduce this. It needed to be done ''quietly''.
Vaasa, not satisfied with the Telos story, but I like this country to be run by villains, there was a gap after Zhengyi, the ''ear hunting'' quickly becomes boring
a few more Shou towns, adds more to the already great cultural diversity
geographical changes in Anauroch, reducing the desert in half would be ideal
Baldur's Gate, gaining a bit more importance, and the slums will add more intrigue to the city, maybe some conflicts from a few xenophobic locals and the newcomers
Shaar, I wanted some small changes to its seemingly monotone environment, not the colossal hole tough
that the fey are more involved with the world, tough there aren't any details on this
the geographical changes of Azulduth and around, all that lakes
Myth Nantar being half above the surface
no longer Zhentarim = the church of Bane, tough I'd like the old Manshoon's Zhentarim
I don't mind the aboleth city, as long as it doesn't disturb everything in the Sea of Fallen Stars, like Shade did, but remains a background threat
Simbarchs of Aglarond
all other changes aren't tolerable
like how the "canon" no longer clutters everything up. I don't need every bartender to be an ex-epic adventurer
that's not true, you should read some of the old canon and get some feel how big the world is before making such assumptions
mostly I am fishing for opinions on what people like and dislike...
-Oh, okay:
Likes
- The City of Xxiphu
- The minimalization of Mystra
- Elfharrow
- Elturgard
Dislikes
- The concept of Abeir as a separate entity
- The advance of the timeline by 104 years
- The death of Mystra
- The new Shadovar empire
- The new Imaskari empire
- The bare-bones approach to the FRCG/FRPG
- The fact that the FRCG/FRPG will be the only D&D supplements the Forgotten Realms receive
- The reclassification of various deities into "self-contained pantheons", with exarchs
- The reclassification of various deities into actually being other deities, wearing "masks"
- The Skyfire Emirates
- The seemingly random and internal-guideline breaking nature of the Spellplague, in terms of what it affected and what it didn't affect
- The maps in the FRCG
- The "old and broken" Elminster
- Evermeet being sent to the Plane of Faerie
- The seeming corruption lurking behind the paladins of Elturgard
- The destruction of Lantan
- The shift in focus of the Red Wizards
- "Returned Abeir" replacing various locales
- The relative unification of Guallidurth
- Something I didn't notice until someone mentioned it- the relative importance and prestige afforded to certain designers' pet characters (though, this was something that happened in the past as well)
Dislikes
- The concept of Abeir as a separate entity
- The advance of the timeline by 104 years
- The death of Mystra
- The new Shadovar empire
- The new Imaskari empire
- The bare-bones approach to the FRCG/FRPG
- The fact that the FRCG/FRPG will be the only D&D supplements the Forgotten Realms receive
- The reclassification of various deities into "self-contained pantheons", with exarchs
- The reclassification of various deities into actually being other deities, wearing "masks"
- The Skyfire Emirates
- The seemingly random and internal-guideline breaking nature of the Spellplague, in terms of what it affected and what it didn't affect
- The maps in the FRCG
- The "old and broken" Elminster
- Evermeet being sent to the Plane of Faerie
- The seeming corruption lurking behind the paladins of Elturgard
- The destruction of Lantan
- The shift in focus of the Red Wizards
- "Returned Abeir" replacing various locales
- The relative unification of Guallidurth
- Something I didn't notice until someone mentioned it- the relative importance and prestige afforded to certain designers' pet characters (though, this was something that happened in the past as well)
Long list of dislikes, LK :D
I, personally, cannot say my feelings as I do not even own any of the 4e Realms sourcebooks. I am to busy making my own campaign setting for 4e. May pick it up later though.
I'd also add the Warlock Knights of Vassa (sung to the tune of The Yellow Rose of Texas :D ), and the Eminence of Araunt (even if it is a complete ripoff of the current WoW expansion).
I also don't mind the Skyfire emirates - in fact, I wish they would have really just left poor, abused Chondath and Unther alone and placed ALL of the Genasi stuff in Lands of Intrigue. Despite my love of Schend's lore, I really wouldn't have minded dumping all of that there.
Aberrations make me sick (but then again... aren't they supposed to?), and all that crap concerning the psionic Catfish (I REFUSE to call them by name) is utter garabage.
The Spellplague I have learned to like (it really is an all-purpose retro-fitter), and I could have even learned to live with the appearance of Abier (silly as I think it is), but the Timejump was really the deal-breaker for me.
If the Spellplague killed off nearly all the high-level characters, and re-arranged landmasses and "changed the face of FR", then what, in god's name, was the point of the century timejump?
I had assumed it was to give the authors a place to write in, and leave the gameworld (the new Realms) the hell alone... which would have made perfect sense. If they continued to write novels in the 'old Realms', and gaming sources in the 'new realms', I may have been a supporter.
As it is, I'm still waiting to hear from anyone 'official' why the century-timejump was neccessary, when almost everything they needed to accomplish occurred in 1385 DR?
To me, that was a completely arbitrary and unnecessary decision... it almost appears 'spiteful' to me.
If the Spellplague killed off nearly all the high-level characters, and re-arranged landmasses and "changed the face of FR", then what, in god's name, was the point of the century timejump?
It's possibly because the spellplague took some time to actually affect the entire world or alternatively, it was just to provide a way of making sure the new Aberian populace had radiated out into the world in general. I imagine, just post-spellplague, Dragonborn would have made most average human peasants in FR crap their pants and so the 100 years gives a period for people to get "used" to them.
Or at least that is what I suspect.
So the designers chose to eliminate a possibly very entertaining Roleplaying situation?
Not buying it. By 1386 DR, 99% of the s#$* already hit the fan - I think discovering Returned Abeir and assimilating all those new races (what? Just the Dragonborn, right?) would have provided a LOT more gaming value for my money.
Hell, the whole entire planet was 'Points of Light' the day after (1386) - why 'urbanize' the whole thing and wash-out all the potential conflicts? The new realms aren't nearly as interesting as the world the day after the Spellplague was.
The way I see it, the took a potentially excellent plot-device (the Spellplague) and watered it down to insignificance.
"The Spellplague? Yeah... I heard it was some big 'to-do' that happened aroun' a hunert' years ago"
It really seems counter-productive to me to bring the world forward enough in time for everything to be 'stable' again. Basically they re-created the Realms... just to give us the Realms.
Don't care what they do, personally, but I do care that they don't seem to have done anything at all (as far as setting/flavor goes).
Same Realms, different players - pretty pointless, if you ask me.
Unless they just wanted to eliminate the usefullness of all our previous sourcebooks, just so we were forced to buy new ones... but that really doesn't work either, since they don't plan ANY new sourcebooks. Thats the route Games Workshop goes with each of its new Warhammer editions, so it at least makes some finacial sense.
Leaving me rather confused about the whole thing.
The time jump was completely necessary, unless you wanted to play in a world that was literally in the middle of an apocalyptic event. It could be fun, sure, but then you would have to hinge the entire setting around that single event.
It's pretty simple, if you ask me. They wanted to wipe the slate clean so they could tell new stories. That's what was said (by Rich I think). The Spellplague was the reboot button, the time jump was to smooth things out... basically giving you an entirely new setting, based on the old.
Kinda like... you know... Everquest 2.
Beyond that, as Meldread said, having the setting revolve entirely around a single event would be even worse, and would drastically curtail the types of stories that could reasonably be told in the setting. And to be honest, as much as I dislike the 4e Realms, I dislike post-apocalyptic stuff even more than I hate Lovecraftian garbage. At least the time jump gave some distance to that event, making it at least vaguely more appealing to me, though not enough to actually buy it.
I think that with LFR, we have the opportunity to make 4th ed Realms something really cool.
We also have the opportunity to totally run it into the ground, of course, but I am mildly hopeful that we'll do a good job.
Gomez
Its just that, from my point of view, everyone who already had a plethora of 1e/2e/3e sources would still be able to use them in 1386 DR, picking and chosing what they wanted to use (I keep picturing myself as ARNOLD, and saying to all th NPCs "Come with me if you want to live".)
Anyhow, that would have made the most sense to me, with the lore-lite appproach, because then everyone would be able to decide what parts of the old Realms to keep and which to ditch - each FR DM would have his own, unique world.
But the LFR kinda nerfs that, so yeah... I'll blame them...
This week. :P
We don't do well in large, social situations - I'm not talking about myself, mind you (I'm perfect :P ) - but most of the gamers I know find each other and form small, tight groups of like-minded people.
"Organized Misfits" just sounds too much like an oxymoron to me to ever work. Especially since one of the main selling-points of 4e is that "YOUR PC matters". How do they justify that, when you play in arena of 1000's of other players, all playing the same generic adventure, and only one group's 'outcome' is chosen to be canon?
Of course, I know thats all smoke and mirrors - the outcome is already decided ahead of time, and LFR players really decide NOTHING, but I suppose it's good for some ego-stroking to make them believe so.
Anyhow, I don't really want to 'beat-up' the LFR - I give those guys credit for trying. I just don't see that as a real alternative to old-school P&P RPGing.
Likes
- The City of Xxiphu
- The minimalization of Mystra
- Elfharrow
- Elturgard
- The concept of Abeir as a separate entity
- The advance of the timeline by 104 years
- The death of Mystra
- The new Shadovar empire
- The new Imaskari empire
- The bare-bones approach to the FRCG/FRPG
- The fact that the FRCG/FRPG will be the only D&D supplements the Forgotten Realms receive
- The reclassification of various deities into "self-contained pantheons", with exarchs
- The reclassification of various deities into actually being other deities, wearing "masks"
- The Skyfire Emirates
- The seemingly random and internal-guideline breaking nature of the Spellplague, in terms of what it affected and what it didn't affect
- The maps in the FRCG
- The "old and broken" Elminster
- Evermeet being sent to the Plane of Faerie
- The seeming corruption lurking behind the paladins of Elturgard
- The destruction of Lantan
- The shift in focus of the Red Wizards
- "Returned Abeir" replacing various locales
- The relative unification of Guallidurth
Long list of dislikes, LK :D
-That was only a cursory glance through the FRCG/FRPG. I didn't list other peeves not directly related to the setting (like the size of the typeface, or larger pictures, for example), or mechanics (like having too much non-Forgotten Realms specific spells and such in the books. I'm sure if I sat down (with any applicable books), I can double or triple that list.
I love the 4e realms... and Karsus was kind enough to provide me with a list of reasons why. :P
-Get your own list.
-Get your own list.
Hehehe... re-appropriation-man, up, up, and away!
Hehehe... re-appropriation man, up, up, and away!
-Yeah, get outta here! :: Throws something ::
...truth be told, I think this campaign guide has about as much info as the old grey box did..
-It's certainly possible, and probably likely, being as that both are fairly minimal on the information giving. That's why, unlike, like, everyone else, apparently, I don't like those original Forgotten Realms products. Not enough of the Realms I know (and like) have been established.
I havent seen the players guide to forgotten realms 4ed yet, I just have the campaign guide...but it does give me a warm&fuzzy about finding the players guide...even though I have some dislikes...and they seem to be echoed here by a good portion of posts here,...they didnt seem to off the wall...truth be told, I think this campaign guide has about as much info as the old grey box did..
The players guide is mostly full of crunch. Definitely worth it, especially for...players:D
-Yeah, get outta here! :: Throws something ::
Make an attack role. :P
I love the 4e realms... and Karsus was kind enough to provide me with a list of reasons why. :P
Likes
- The City of Xxiphu
- The minimalization of Mystra
- Elfharrow
- Elturgard
- The concept of Abeir as a separate entity
- The advance of the timeline by 104 years
- The death of Mystra
- The new Shadovar empire
- The new Imaskari empire
- The bare-bones approach to the FRCG/FRPG
- The fact that the FRCG/FRPG will be the only D&D supplements the Forgotten Realms receive
- The reclassification of various deities into "self-contained pantheons", with exarchs
- The reclassification of various deities into actually being other deities, wearing "masks"
- The Skyfire Emirates
- The seemingly random and internal-guideline breaking nature of the Spellplague, in terms of what it affected and what it didn't affect
- The maps in the FRCG
- The "old and broken" Elminster
- Evermeet being sent to the Plane of Faerie
- The seeming corruption lurking behind the paladins of Elturgard
- The destruction of Lantan
- The shift in focus of the Red Wizards
- "Returned Abeir" replacing various locales
- The relative unification of Guallidurth
-That is a great list Cyber-Dave. #2 and #7 are mine and Lord Cyric's Favorites. ;)
18DELTA (CYRIC SAVES) :P
I have collected off and on all the realms core products (campaign settings and realm type books) since the "grey" days of first edition, and have to say so far I have not been disappointed with any edition of the realms..while I am not a fan of 4ed's mechanics..from a DM point of view,, I actually like what they did with the realms..just want to see what other folks think about it.
The 4E FR setting is not for me, so I won't use it.
Even though the thread is titled: "anyone else like 4ed realms?" be prepared to get many folks who do not like the new stuff to chime in.
And that is fine, because the OP asked in his/her post:
I actually like what they did with the realms..just want to see what other folks think about it.
they're alright. I like how the "canon" no longer clutters everything up. I don't need every bartender to be an ex-epic adventurer, and every tree having a name is dumb.
Maybe, but I don't ever remember such being the case in the "old" Realms.
I have collected off and on all the realms core products (campaign settings and realm type books) since the "grey" days of first edition, and have to say so far I have not been disappointed with any edition of the realms..while I am not a fan of 4ed's mechanics..from a DM point of view,, I actually like what they did with the realms..just want to see what other folks think about it.
its horrible and made me abandon the place
-Oh, okay:
Likes
- The City of Xxiphu
- The minimalization of Mystra
- Elfharrow
- Elturgard
Dislikes
- The concept of Abeir as a separate entity
- The advance of the timeline by 104 years
- The death of Mystra
- The new Shadovar empire
- The new Imaskari empire
- The bare-bones approach to the FRCG/FRPG
- The fact that the FRCG/FRPG will be the only D&D supplements the Forgotten Realms receive
- The reclassification of various deities into "self-contained pantheons", with exarchs
- The reclassification of various deities into actually being other deities, wearing "masks"
- The Skyfire Emirates
- The seemingly random and internal-guideline breaking nature of the Spellplague, in terms of what it affected and what it didn't affect
- The maps in the FRCG
- The "old and broken" Elminster
- Evermeet being sent to the Plane of Faerie
- The seeming corruption lurking behind the paladins of Elturgard
- The destruction of Lantan
- The shift in focus of the Red Wizards
- "Returned Abeir" replacing various locales
- The relative unification of Guallidurth
- Something I didn't notice until someone mentioned it- the relative importance and prestige afforded to certain designers' pet characters (though, this was something that happened in the past as well)
;)
Anyway, I'd file all of the above under "dislikes".
And many more...The Spellplague I have learned to like (it really is an all-purpose retro-fitter), and I could have even learned to live with the appearance of Abier (silly as I think it is), but the Timejump was really the deal-breaker for me.
If the Spellplague killed of
As it is, I'm still waiting to hear from anyone 'official' why the century-timejump was neccessary, when almost everything they needed to accomplish occurred in 1385 DR?
To me, that was a completely arbitrary and unnecessary decision... it almost appears 'spiteful' to me.
it was discussed many times officially if my memory serves me right. one "official" source is Dragon magazine Issue 366 starting on page 78. Titled Forgotten Realms; starting points in the new edition.
...just want to see what other folks think about it.
I loathe 4E Realms. Yet I was moderately positive about the 4E Rules. That said, I've made a decision to vote with my wallet and never buy anything 4E+ because of what was done to the Realms.
That said, if you do like it, no hard feelings - game on if you can make it work!
It's just not for me.
MarkusTay63-
It's pretty simple, if you ask me. They wanted to wipe the slate clean so they could tell new stories. That's what was said (by Rich I think). The Spellplague was the reboot button, the time jump was to smooth things out... basically giving you an entirely new setting, based on the old.
A new setting that has about two words in common with the one we love, i.e. "Forgotten Realms". Which should give away my opinion about the 4E "Realms" and the new rules.
I'd echo LK's list there, m'self.
I'd also add the Warlock Knights of Vassa (sung to the tune of The Yellow Rose of Texas :D ), and the Eminence of Araunt (even if it is a complete ripoff of the current WoW expansion).
I also don't mind the Skyfire emirates - in fact, I wish they would have really just left poor, abused Chondath and Unther alone and placed ALL of the Genasi stuff in Lands of Intrigue. Despite my love of Schend's lore, I really wouldn't have minded dumping all of that there.
Aberrations make me sick (but then again... aren't they supposed to?), and all that crap concerning the psionic Catfish (I REFUSE to call them by name) is utter garabage.
The Spellplague I have learned to like (it really is an all-purpose retro-fitter), and I could have even learned to live with the appearance of Abier (silly as I think it is), but the Timejump was really the deal-breaker for me.
If the Spellplague killed off nearly all the high-level characters, and re-arranged landmasses and "changed the face of FR", then what, in god's name, was the point of the century timejump?
I had assumed it was to give the authors a place to write in, and leave the gameworld (the new Realms) the hell alone... which would have made perfect sense. If they continued to write novels in the 'old Realms', and gaming sources in the 'new realms', I may have been a supporter.
As it is, I'm still waiting to hear from anyone 'official' why the century-timejump was neccessary, when almost everything they needed to accomplish occurred in 1385 DR?
To me, that was a completely arbitrary and unnecessary decision... it almost appears 'spiteful' to me.
If this is what has happen to the Realms then I won't be reading anymore of the corresponding novels. Not that this sort of reconstruction is new nor is it a surprise. The people who love the new world will go ape for it and the ones who grew up with the old world will more then likely hate it as is demonstrated on this thread. Why did they push the time line up for 100 years? Does it really matter if you don’t like the other parts of the new world?
That said, if you do like it, no hard feelings - game on if you can make it work!
It's just not for me.
Yup--in the immortal words of Tim Gunn, "Make it work!":D That's all that matters.
I kinda like the resurgance of the demi human races..it veered from the original tolkeinish dwarves dying out, elves sailing off theme :D......forgot to add that I AM a tolkein fan :D
-That really started in the FRCS, and in the 3e era: The end of the Elven retreat, the subsequent repopulation of Myth Glauroch and Myth Drannor, the Thunder Blessing...
As for the 4E ruleset I think it is great for playability, not so great for adapatability (i.e. in trying to translate 1/2/3E concepts into the new ruleset).
-- George Krashos
There isn't enough information/lore/detail on the 4E Realms to make me fall in love with it.
As for the 4E ruleset I think it is great for playability, not so great for adapatability (i.e. in trying to translate 1/2/3E concepts into the new ruleset).
-- George Krashos
-Well said Krash, well said.
18DELTA (CYRIC BLESS THEE) ;)
As a side note. I just hate the art direction they took on the books. The 3E campaign setting book is the best looking rpg book I own, what happened?
yea, I'm not a fan of the 4e art, especially when I see dragonborn and tieflings
, geeze look at factol Rhys for some inspirationmuch more satisfied with the Pathfinder art (e.g. Elves of Golarion)
18DELTA (Chosen of CYRIC) ;)
As to 4e's art... didn't seem that bad. Not that good either, but I've seen a lot worse.
new tieflings and dragonborn are ugly
-With the Forgotten Realms art, there aren't any pictures I can think of individually. What does bug me, though, is how the FRCG/PG have entire pages dedicated to a picture. In an otherwise information-lite book, they have extra pages being used for artwork. I'd rather have more text and information.
it was discussed many times officially if my memory serves me right. one "official" source is Dragon magazine Issue 366 starting on page 78. Titled Forgotten Realms; starting points in the new edition.
Yes, that's true--the reasoning behind the changes has been addressed by the designers many times.
Yes, and they used all three things to 'explain-away' what they did - The Spellplague (the death of Mystra and her Weave), the return of Abeir, and the timejump.
I'd like someone to break it all down for me, and please tell me what the first two things didn't do that they felt the third was still necessary?
A timejump? Sure... I understand completely. A decade would have made sense... but a century? Thats a whole new setting, no matter how you look at it.
They have lumped all their reasons for the changes together, and all their 'solutions' as well. Now I want them to break-it-down and tell me why each one was necessary, and what particular 'problem area' it addressed?
The way I see it, various people came up with alternate ideas for why the world is 'new' and different, and rather then just chosing one or two, they decided to use them all... which left a VERY bad taste in most people's mouths.
I could have accomplished much the same they did with just the Spellplague and a fifteen-year timejump (say, 1390 DR), and I am not a professional. The ONLY thing a century did was alienate the major portion of the old fanbase, which seems to have been the goal (out with the old, and in with the new).
Too bad it was those "rabid, old-school fans" that were reading all their precious novels. They managed to nuke their own readership.
Yup--in the immortal words of Tim Gunn, "Make it work!":D That's all that matters.
Ack!
Another thing we have in common. :D
Although I am fashion-impaired, I LOVE that show (must appeal to my creative side). I think if I could have an elegant dinner with anyone in the world, Tim Gunn would be my man (and no... I'm not... 'curious'... I just think he is SO sophisticated).
I'd like someone to break it all down for me, and please tell me what the first two things didn't do that they felt the third was still necessary?
-It gives them:
The ability to completely minimalize individuals/groups/places that existed, that were cited as "bad" (not going to go into that), while, at the same time, gave them in-game time to develop cultures/nations in whatever direction they wanted to, to better mesh with any guidelines that needed to be followed, to keep in line with the rest of generic D&D and any other RPG guidelines that designers use.
-As we've said, to each other, and to others, the 104-year time jump is what really changes the setting. The death of Mystra and the subsequent Spellplague did so much, but all that was over relatively quickly. Without increasing the setting date by a lot, it'd still be the "old" Forgotten Realms, only with a bunch of wackiness going on. And, apparently, the designers didn't want to to be like that, nor did they want it to be like the "old" Forgotten Realms. Thus...
Ack!
Another thing we have in common. :D
Although I am fashion-impaired, I LOVE that show (must appeal to my creative side). I think if I could have an elegant dinner with anyone in the world, Tim Gunn would be my man (and no... I'm not... 'curious'... I just think he is SO sophisticated).
-I'll admit it: I like Top Chef...
It might be interesting to have a setting where humans are the race in decline, for once ;)
Such as the 4E "core setting"?
It's not really a true setting, but one of the "key concepts" laid out for 4E was the idea that civilization in general is in decline, and no one race dominates the planet.
As a side note. I just hate the art direction they took on the books. The 3E campaign setting book is the best looking rpg book I own, what happened?
Have to admit, I'm the opposite. I love a lot of the 4E art, whereas a lot of art from the 3E core books (and even the FRCS) did nothing for me.
Yes, and they used all three things to 'explain-away' what they did - The Spellplague (the death of Mystra and her Weave), the return of Abeir, and the timejump.
I'd like someone to break it all down for me, and please tell me what the first two things didn't do that they felt the third was still necessary?
It does seem like overkill.
Ack!
Another thing we have in common. :D
Although I am fashion-impaired, I LOVE that show (must appeal to my creative side). I think if I could have an elegant dinner with anyone in the world, Tim Gunn would be my man (and no... I'm not... 'curious'... I just think he is SO sophisticated).
Yeah, he's the kind of person I'd love to meet too.
Didn't realize you liked Top Chef, LK!
Yes, and they used all three things to 'explain-away' what they did - The Spellplague (the death of Mystra and her Weave), the return of Abeir, and the timejump.
I'd like someone to break it all down for me, and please tell me what the first two things didn't do that they felt the third was still necessary?
Here's my take, for what it's worth: the first two are just dramatic enough to completely change the tone and feel of the setting. The third is what essentially divorces this one from all previous settings. They wanted a full break from continuity, but they wanted bits and pieces from the old.
Spellplague: to completely shake up the setting, basically, and destroy, retool or modify aspects that the design team did not like. This "solves" the "problem" of people thinking the setting was growing stale, and appeals to the more minimalist-minded DMs who like bare bones. It also provides an excuse for the changes to magic, and more generally the changes to 4E rules.
Abeir: to introduce "kewl new races" for play in the Realms, ready-made with their own imported culture. This is much more safe than making a completely new setting, and it also required less time, money and effort to put together. This, theoretically, would draw in younger players and those attracted to the shiny.
Timejump: to divorce this from all previous settings, making nitty-gritty lore enthusiasts have to start all over. This "solves" the "there's nothing left to write about for us authors problem" which was more for designers than for fans. How many people would (again) be willing to buy re-tooled maps and various "crunch" for the Xth time without it having the feel of a fresh, new place?
I'm not saying any of the above are correct, and I'd certainly argue that their reasoning was logically flawed for all of the stated reasons above, but that seems to have been their overall gist.
Although I am fashion-impaired, I LOVE that show (must appeal to my creative side). I think if I could have an elegant dinner with anyone in the world, Tim Gunn would be my man (and no... I'm not... 'curious'... I just think he is SO sophisticated).
Tim Gunn gets an A+ from me too, and I like Top Chef and .. yes, I'll say it, Project Runway. HILARIOUS!
And while speaking of dragonborn ... the "adventure-ization" of Pool of Radiance - Attack on Myth Drannor by SKR featured the dragonkin (described in Monsters of Faerûn and the Draconomicon) and thus such folk was already about. Why there was any need to "Philadelphia-Project" parts of Abeir into the Realms is somewhat beyond me. But then again, some strange things happened recently, not just in-setting, but also in-novel. Obsidian Ridge anyone?
Haven't looked all too deep into the matter, but "kewl new races being introduced" ... how many are there? I think I read of those dragonborn and some of the changes that happened to the tieflings and genasi, but are there that many more?
In Players Handbook 2:
Shifters
Daeva
Goliaths
Returning are Half-Orcs and Gnomes, which probably don't function much as "kewl new races".
Daeva? Not familiar, or is it something that got renamed?
Renamed Aasimar from previous editions. They are mentioned in the 4th edition FRCG as well as the other races (so they have pre-thought about the new races and built them in).
In Players Handbook 2:
Shifters
Daeva
Goliaths
Returning are Half-Orcs and Gnomes, which probably don't function much as "kewl new races".
Is that the Realms though, or just Core talk?
Well, you're a Cyricist, its not like your opinion matters. :P :D
As to 4e's art... didn't seem that bad. Not that good either, but I've seen a lot worse.
-:P
yea, Elves of Golarion, I don't like the cover, but inside there's some pretty nice art, particularly Kyonin, the aquatic elf, and the god symbols
new tieflings and dragonborn are ugly
-I really like Paizo's take on Drow.
-I like the 4E Tieflings, Dragonborn meh. ;)
18DELTA (CYRIC LOVES THE MULTI-QUOTE FUNCTION) :P
It's very nice having a world where I don't have level two npcs with three page write ups. (I mean seriously, level 2... hell most of my low level PCs get three to four paragraphs at most!)
It's very nice having a world where I don't have level two npcs with three page write ups.
As a matter of interest, where might I find these write ups? Because, to be honest, any NPC interesting enough to command three pages of text is someone I want to read about.
Most obliged.
Is that the Realms though, or just Core talk?
They have write ups in the FRCG and it's pretty clear those are supposed to provide a basis for those races use post-PHB II in realms campaigns.
PHB 2 Is going to really spice u p the FR :D so I have high hopes....just a bit annoyed that we are only going to get 2 main campaign books...was spoiled with all the love from 3ed
PHB2 isn't going to contain any FR-specific information, is it? I thought it was a generic core book.
I hope they come out with more then just two setting books for FR. I'd like a new Pantheons of Faerun book just so us players get more options when choosing a deity. Right now I've been pretty much going with Amaunator (the new LG St. Cuthbert mechanically). Can't beat the god who supports pure wrathful teenage rage in the form of blazing light.
PHB2 isn't going to contain any FR-specific information, is it? I thought it was a generic core book.
Core = FR, in this crazy, mixed-up 4e universe. ;)
At least, that was one of their stated design goals.
"One rules to rule them all, and in the dakness bind them
In the land of Renton, where the shadows lie" :D
I hope they come out with more then just two setting books for FR. I'd like a new Pantheons of Faerun book just so us players get more options when choosing a deity.
Based on the comments of Rich Baker in his Q&A thread, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a deity-specific FR sourcebook (and that's in addition to the fact that currently no more sourcebooks are even planned for the setting to begin with).
they're alright. I like how the "canon" no longer clutters everything up.
QFT
One of the things I hated about the realms was that if you didn't read 100+ novels no matter how manny supplments you had, you didn't have the whole story,,,and the problme it could cause att he table...
I LOVE the new realms...it feels new and fresh and like I can tell MY stories there without worrying about steping on other people's (Read writers) Stories...
I just hope they don't re clutter the world with more and more books and supplments...
I just hope they don't re clutter the world with more and more books and supplments...
Good luck with that. You won't get more supplements outside of Dragon and Dungeon articles, but I believe they are publishing novels just as fast as they used to.
Nine novels have been published for the Realms since the 4E release and seven more are on the table for 2009 (with more sure to be announced as the year goes on). So, better get cracking and start reading to keep up with your players!
QFT
One of the things I hated about the realms was that if you didn't read 100+ novels no matter how manny supplments you had, you didn't have the whole story,,,and the problme it could cause att he table...
I LOVE the new realms...it feels new and fresh and like I can tell MY stories there without worrying about steping on other people's (Read writers) Stories...
I just hope they don't re clutter the world with more and more books and supplments...
You should probably start buying all the novels in 4E then, and be "up" on them lore-wise. It's the novels and supplements that draw players in, and you'd better be ready for their interests and wants beyond the core manuals.
(Heh! MattDroz had the same thought, as I was typing my post). ;)
Good luck with that. You won't get more supplements outside of Dragon and Dungeon articles, but I believe they are publishing novels just as fast as they used to.
Nine novels have been published for the Realms since the 4E release and seven more are on the table for 2009 (with more sure to be announced as the year goes on). So, better get cracking and start reading to keep up with your players!
You should probably start buying all the novels in 4E then, and be "up" on them lore-wise. It's the novels and supplements that draw players in, and you'd better be ready for their interests and wants beyond the core manuals.
(Heh! MattDroz had the same thought, as I was typing my post). ;)
I will enjoy my games welll I can... maybe it wont be so bad...ravenloft has novels...Ebberon has Novels...heck spell jammer and Darksun have novels...so maybe it wont all start again...
One of the things I hated about the realms was that if you didn't read 100+ novels no matter how manny supplments you had, you didn't have the whole story,,,
One of the things I loved about the Realms was that even if you had read 100+ novels, and no matter how many supplements you had, you didn't have the whole story... there were always more to be told.
I just hope they don't re clutter the world with more and more books and supplments...
For someone who has suggested several times that they haven't ever called for or asked for changes that would affect other people's enjoyment of the setting you are now coming perilously close to asking for the cessation of mine. At the moment my only gateway into the Realms is the novels... so I for one am very glad that, as MattDroz reports, they aren't done with that quite yet.
PHB2 isn't going to contain any FR-specific information, is it? I thought it was a generic core book.
it is core, you are correct, I just think it will be very useful for FR too :D
For someone who has suggested several times that they haven't ever called for or asked for changes that would affect other people's enjoyment of the setting you are now coming perilously close to asking for the cessation of mine. At the moment my only gateway into the Realms is the novels... so I for one am very glad that, as MattDroz reports, they aren't done with that quite yet.
No sorry that might have come out wrong...I don't want them to stop publishing NOVELS (for my own selfish reason, as long as WotC makes money off those novels, my hobby is being supported), I just don't want time of troubles like novels that make large sweeping changes that the game world will reflect...or huge epic NPC's introed in Novels...
As a side note I am currently reading SwordMage...nothing in it breaks anything of the setting, or gives me any 'insider info' to the massive story of the realms...it at best shows a small bit of realms lore...
That is what I want to see...
This has nothing to do with the quality of the writing (since I'm applying this across-the-board to writers I love) - I just don't have any interest in the subject matter.
Sadly, I found it impossible for me to be interested in ANY post-Spellplague novel.
This has nothing to do with the quality of the writing (since I'm applying this across-the-board to writers I love) - I just don't have any interest in the subject matter.
If Wotc was really smart, they would publish a bunch of novels pre spell plauge still...or durring...
let thoese hugely popular characters (You know the ones I dislike) give there alll in those stories...let people have there cake and eat it too...
If they only published novels pre-Spellplague, or even ones bridging the gap (bringing to an end all those story-lines we wanted to know about), I think that would be the PERFECT solution to the fanbase-split.
Novels for the setting-fans, and 4eFR sourcebooks (and Dragon articles) for the game-players.
Ergo, both 'worlds' could continue forward, and WotC stands to make much more money in the long run, since a lot of cross-pollination is bound to occur with time. I see absolutely nothing detrimental in them doing this - it doesn't really effect the new 'game setting' in any appreciable way, and keeps older fans happy.
Definately some good cake having and eating, there.
Edit: In fact, I'd be willing to bet money that both RAS and Ed - their two big author cash-cows - would prefer to write in the past. They were the only two from the original meeting who were against the 4e Realms from the start (although they eventually came onboard - I have a feeling it was more of a "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" thing, but whatever).
EXACTLY.
If they only published novels pre-Spellplague, or even ones bridging the gap (bringing to an end all those story-lines we wannted to know about), I think that would be the PERFECT solution to the fanbase-split.
Novels for the setting-fans, and 4eFR sourcebooks (and Dragon articles) for the game-players.
Ergo, both 'worlds' could continue forward, and WotC stands to make much more money in the long run, since a lot of cross-pollination is bound to occur with time. I see absolutely nothing detrimental in them doing this - it doesn't really effect the new 'game setting' in any appreciable way, and keeps older fans happy.
Definately some good cake having and eating, there.
Edit: In fact, I'd be willing to bet money that both RAS and Ed - their two big author cash-cows - would prefer to write in the past. They were the only two from the original meeting who were against the 4e Realms from the start (although they eventually came onboard - I have a feeling it was more of a "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" thing, but whatever).
that whole post is made of win...
Novels for the setting-fans, and 4eFR sourcebooks (and Dragon articles) for the game-players.
Ergo, both 'worlds' could continue forward, and WotC stands to make much more money in the long run, since a lot of cross-pollination is bound to occur with time. I see absolutely nothing detrimental in them doing this - it doesn't really effect the new 'game setting' in any appreciable way, and keeps older fans happy.
I think that is the BEST idea that has been put forward...
The two 4E Realms sourcebooks and the adventure will probably sell fine, with non-Realms DMs and players taking up the slack from lost Realms fans. If the novel line, on the other hand, is relatively unaffected as they hope, it'll be because lots of the novel readers care more about their favourite characters and the big world-shaking events they've been trained to expect than timelines and world subtleties.
Edit: In fact, I'd be willing to bet money that both RAS and Ed - their two big author cash-cows - would prefer to write in the past.
No question.
They were the only two from the original meeting who were against the 4e Realms from the start (although they eventually came onboard - I have a feeling it was more of a "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" thing, but whatever).
Neither of them were at that meeting; there were people inside Wizards who fought what was eventually decided.
If Wotc was really smart, they would publish a bunch of novels pre spell plauge still...or durring...
let thoese hugely popular characters (You know the ones I dislike) give there alll in those stories...let people have there cake and eat it too...
It's another Knights of Myth Drannor trilogy I'm holding out for, first of all. The seeming 'all fiction in the new timeline' decision could easily enough have exceptions made in the future, unless they think the 'New Latest Happening Now Best Biggest Newest' factor is overwhelming now.
One of the things I loved about the Realms was that even if you had read 100+ novels, and no matter how many supplements you had, you didn't have the whole story... there were always more to be told.
I agree, it'd be a shame if the "important stuff" only happened in novels, instead of at your gaming table also (or in your head, or wherever).
For someone who has suggested several times that they haven't ever called for or asked for changes that would affect other people's enjoyment of the setting you are now coming perilously close to asking for the cessation of mine.
Seconded.
I don't even read FR novels anymore due to lack of time. I just play Dungeons and Dragons. People seem to be obsessed with knowing the world lore when from experience such lore doesn't really apply to the whole of Forgotten realms. Drizzt for the most part was only located in Icewind Dale and only later traveled around outside of that specific location. Heck even if he did do something it rarely effected where a certain group of goblins kept their base of operations, or where I'll need to go to find some persons necklace.
It's likely that most people who read about Drizzt do so because they like the character. And that's why I read the novels--I like the setting and many of the characters. Although, like Markus I have to admit that I find myself more or less uninterested in the post-Spellplague novels. I'm thinking of reading the Waterdeep books, and anything Ed Greenwood might write, but at the moment I'm busy reading books still set in the 14th century Realms.
Markustay, did you happen to get a chance to read the haunted lands trilogy (unclean, undead, and soon unholy) ? you might enjoy those, they arent really "spellplague" but it occurs during it, and I thought they were really cool books
I can't speak for Markus, but I have the feeling those novels would be too "Spellplaguey" for him. From what I understand, Undead makes allusions to the death of Mystra and involves "land reshaping", etc.
I can't speak for Markus, but I have the feeling those novels would be too "Spellplaguey" for him. From what I understand, Undead makes allusions to the death of Mystra and involves "land reshaping", etc.
yeah, your probably right, but damn those are great books....might be able to overlook the oops spellplague parts because it moves the story soooo well :D
yeah, your probably right, but damn those are great books....might be able to overlook the oops spellplague parts because it moves the story soooo well :D
Ironically, I never got past the first book (and this was before the Spellplague stuff came out). I read the first one and couldn't go on. It was well written and all, but I just didn't like the 'heroes' of the book being 'less evil' than Szass Tam, thereby making them the good guys. *shrug*
I love that word. :dancing:
Anyhow, I planned to pick-up the first one, but then noted that when the second came out it was set during, and that the last was planned for post-Spellplague. Pretty sneaky, that... they almost got me to buy a novel that had no ending.
After all, as far as I'm concerned, the Realms I am a fan of ends in 1385 DR. NOTHING I am a fan of occurs after that time period. The second and third books are written about some other settng, as far as I'm concerned - one I have NO interest in.
Neither of them were at that meeting; there were people inside Wizards who fought what was eventually decided.
Not so - I'm talking about the 'secret meeting' at Gencon 3½ years ago - both RAS and Ed were there, andwere told WotC's plans... and both of them argued heavily against it.
It was in something here (perhaps some of Rich's replies?), and I believ Ed mentioned it at CK as well.
It only makes sense that there two big authors didn't want to disrupt the apple-cart.
As a matter of interest, where might I find these write ups? Because, to be honest, any NPC interesting enough to command three pages of text is someone I want to read about.
EXACTLY - Just to point a little canon something out to everyone -
No roleplaying game would be complete without enemies, and Faerûn has a plethora of them. Take the basics presented in this book and build your campaign around them. Give your antagonists depth and breadth. Allow them some personality. Let them care. Good villains are no less right and Justified in their actions then the heroes - from their point of view. Treat each villain as the protagonist of his or her own story, and not simply antagonists that confront the heroes at dramatically appropriate points.
That was written by Sean K. Reynolds - a designer who knew what the hell he was talking about. I guess I know why he's working on Pathfinder and Golarion over at Paizo now.
He KNEW what mattered.
As for Golarion, yeah, that is a damn good setting...I will admit to having an affair with the setting while still "married" to FR
but I cant leave my love FR...not until they do something sooo boneheaded and tragic like merging it with Eberron or Krynn :DOK, we are going to have to make "spellplaguey" an offical phrase is the ol' lexicanum of FR :D
As for Golarion, yeah, that is a damn good setting...I will admit to having an affair with the setting while still "married" to FR
Did you see Cordell's article on Warforged in Faerûn and Genasi in Eberron?
Just sayin'... ;)
Rinon has the right of it- too 'Spellplaguey' :D
I love that word. :dancing:
:D
I also like the word "Spellplaguery", a derogatory word denoting anything involving the Spellplague (ie. "Enough with all this ridiculous Spellplaguery!").
Did you see Cordell's article on Warforged in Faerûn and Genasi in Eberron?
Just sayin'... ;)
Do you mean "have you seen the article" (itself) or "have you seen that there will be an article" (coming soon)? Because I thought it wasn't out for another 10 days or so. If you have it now, can you point me in its direction. I have a serious interest in finding out what Mr James has to say on the matter.
Thanks.
And the way warforged combine with the barbarian class is just sickening as well.
Despite such an article being written, I am unlikely to ever allow warforged in my realms games as I simply don't like them.
And the way warforged combine with the barbarian class is just sickening as well.
You've never seen the Warforged Artificer. "Imbue my body with Bull's Strength. Imbue my body with Mage Armor. Imbue my slam attack with Magic Weapon. Imbue. Imbue. Imbue."