On the other side even the normal gods should be able to reverse it for example through time traveling, so regardless which way you look on it its inconsistent...
Beyond the ToT, didn't he always take a backseat, as it were? ;)
Well when you're a backseat sort of guy, then suddenly you jump into the drivers seat, shoot everyone with a Mortality Gun and drive off yelling 'That'll Teach ya!' You probably think a long period of sitting in the backseat twiddling your thumbs as penance is probably the way to go.
Not familiar with CB4 I take it...
-Don't even know what that stands for.
So Ao is taking a backseat these days? He probably feels he interfered too much during the Times of Trouble and so he's making up for lost time.
-Ao is not so much actively doing it as much as the designers are doing it.
-I haven't seen anything to indicate that Shar's role is being upgraded in 4e. I haven't read any of the 4e novels, but the FRCG/PG, and the earlier online DRAGON/DDI articles don't really lend me that feeling.
Her realm is the largest of all the deities, she has an empire actively worshipping her in the open when she is a goddess of shadows, secrets, and the dark and should be working in the background. She assimilated Sembia. She has gained powers enough to create the shadowfell, subvert entire races to her service that once sought her death, create a new viable race of Shadar-kai, begin experiments to recreate the shadow weave. She can block the ascension of a new god of magic. None of that even covers what she has gained in the novels you have not read. Her role has been upgraded to that of ultimate evil acting in the open where she never has been before. IMO the feeling is there without the novels.
Great movie, very funny parody of a gangsta rapumentary, sort of in the vein of Spinal Tap.
As to Shar... well, she's the new Mystra, so we can probably expect her to go away come 5e in some much-criticized fashion that strains credibility according to many. So, Yay!
Her realm is the largest of all the deities...
-Certainly feasible with her already being one of the strongest deities in the Crystal Sphere.
...she has an empire actively worshipping her in the open when she is a goddess of shadows, secrets, and the dark and should be working in the background...
-This is a fault of the authors/designers, not the deity itself. That said, she has had more worshipers worshiping her in secret across the years, especially in Calimshan.
She assimilated Sembia.
-She's allowed to. Tzchazzar (Sp?) "assimilated" Chessenta.
She has gained powers enough to create the shadowfell, subvert entire races to her service that once sought her death, create a new viable race of Shadar-kai...
-Lolth has done both, over the course of the years.
...begin experiments to recreate the shadow weave.
-Which, she's allowed to try. Mystra, upon having the Weave unraveled with the death of Mystryl, reconstituted herself/The Weave.
She can block the ascension of a new god of magic.
-Coupled with the hypothesis that Mystra's essence is in Azuth's staff, this makes a lot more sense, in that there is nothing for Shar to "block".
None of that even covers what she has gained in the novels you have not read. Her role has been upgraded to that of ultimate evil acting in the open where she never has been before. IMO the feeling is there without the novels.
-Which is the fault of the authors/designers, and not the deity itself.
Cell Blac... er, excuse me, Cell Block Four...
Great movie, very funny parody of a gangsta rapumentary, sort of in the vein of Spinal Tap.
-Oh, okay. Never heard of it, so...
-Certainly feasible with her already being one of the strongest deities in the Crystal Sphere.
-This is a fault of the authors/designers, not the deity itself. That said, she has had more worshipers worshiping her in secret across the years, especially in Calimshan.
-She's allowed to. Tzchazzar (Sp?) "assimilated" Chessenta.
-Lolth has done both, over the course of the years.
-Which, she's allowed to try. Mystra, upon having the Weave unraveled with the death of Mystryl, reconstituted herself/The Weave.
-Coupled with the hypothesis that Mystra's essence is in Azuth's staff, this makes a lot more sense, in that there is nothing for Shar to "block".
-Which is the fault of the authors/designers, and not the deity itself.
-Oh, okay. Never heard of it, so...
You can not separate the deity from the authors as it is their creation. She is not doing anything independent of them in the first place. The point is not that she can not do those things, the point is that they all happened within 100 years and she had the power to do them all relatively at the same time. Her powers have never been stronger and her following never bigger. The spellplague did not affect her in the slightest. Whereas in the past multiple dark gods were dealt with in the supplements and novels Shar is the focus of all the deific evil. Again, her role is much more prominent. Your examples cover multiple deities doing actions over the course of years Lolth did this, Mystra did that, etc. No one deity did all of that. Shar did and she did it during the worst time in realms history in terms of upheaval, chaos, and disturbance in the very fabric of the planes and magic itself. Your examples only prove my point that her role is much more prominant than ever.
Beyond the ToT, didn't he always take a backseat, as it were? ;)
Yeah, pretty much. After they made him I think many folks realized it was a bad idea. Except for the guy who wrote the Cyric novels. I liked them at the time but now realize they should never have been written. IMO.
Her realm is the largest of all the deities, she has an empire actively worshipping her in the open when she is a goddess of shadows, secrets, and the dark and should be working in the background. She assimilated Sembia. She has gained powers enough to create the shadowfell, subvert entire races to her service that once sought her death, create a new viable race of Shadar-kai, begin experiments to recreate the shadow weave. She can block the ascension of a new god of magic. None of that even covers what she has gained in the novels you have not read. Her role has been upgraded to that of ultimate evil acting in the open where she never has been before. IMO the feeling is there without the novels.
SHe probably felt she needed a nation under her sway. Acting in the Shadows for millenia has pretty much gotten her squat. :D
You can not separate the deity from the authors as it is their creation.
-Of course you can. We can have Elminster do something horribly out of character, because R.A. Salvatore was writing Elminster, and not Ed Greenwood. As such, you cannot reconcile what happened with the character with established canon. It happens all the time. The most notable example involved the weaving of the Dracorage Mythal by the survivors of Tintageer, who had- decades before- just begun to train Dragons to act as companions and steeds.
The point is not that she can not do those things, the point is that they all happened within 100 years and she had the power to do them all relatively at the same time...No one deity did all of that.
-I'll narrow the timeline to only twenty years, instead of 100. In twenty years, Lolth:
- Caused the Drow Psionic tradition to virtually disappear from the face of the planet.
- Caused the destruction of the Svirfneblin of Blindgenstone.
- Manipulated the war that created the Kingdom of Many-Arrows
- Removed the Demonweb Pits from the Abyss
- Turned the Demonweb Pits into a Plane of it's own
- Empowered herself from Intermediate Deity to something greater, without any further influence.
- Had Eilistraee/Vhaeraun killed.
-If you are going to complain about something, don't make mountains out of molehills.
the day they got rid of eilistraee was the day the music died
bye bye Sembian pie, rode my horse to the levy but the levy had dries
good oh bards singing whiskey and rye, singing that was the day that eilistraee died...
- Caused the Drow Psionic tradition to virtually disappear from the face of the planet.
- Caused the destruction of the Svirfneblin of Blindgenstone.
- Manipulated the war that created the Kingdom of Many-Arrows
- Removed the Demonweb Pits from the Abyss
- Turned the Demonweb Pits into a Plane of it's own
- Empowered herself from Intermediate Deity to something greater, without any further influence.
- Had Eilistraee/Vhaeraun killed.
The first three points are minor trivialities, not at all important for the Realms as a whole. And the last four points where part of one major plot, whose ultimate purpose was becoming the one and only drow deity.
Well if Ao wouldn't like it he could just undo it, so I don't think he is involved with Cyric beeing imprisoned.
Even Ao is bound to certain laws. He can't just undo things that don't suit him.
On the other side even the normal gods should be able to reverse it for example through time traveling, so regardless which way you look on it its inconsistent...
You can't just go back in time and change history by killing someone or doing something. This isn't the way time travel works in D&D.
Didn't Elistrae get absorbed by corellien? ( sorry for the bad spelling). Is he a greater diety as well
-It's a hypothesis that some believe, based on the final pages of Ascendancy of the Last, concerning a necklace that Corellon Larethian had when confronting Lolth. It's only a hypothesis, however.
-And, yes, Corellon Larethian is/was a Greater Deity.
The first three points are minor trivialities, not at all important for the Realms as a whole.
-As would be Shar gaining absolute control of the religion in the Shade Enclave from the evil aspect of Tyche, in Sembia...
And the last four points where part of one major plot, whose ultimate purpose was becoming the one and only drow deity.
-And, the numerous point concerning Shar are all not interconnected?
1) Caused the Drow Psionic tradition to virtually disappear from the face of the planet. Lolth had one house of psionics killed for their failed coup for power. Hardly destroying all drow psionics on the face of the planet. It’s only the fact that this is the only drow house known to mainly be made up for psions discussed in a novel. They also only died because of a little event called the ToT redefining how psionics worked. At their full power, they would have succeeded and not been destroyed.
Compared to:
Caused the entire system of magic in the known multiverse to disappear. She didn’t virtually remove it by killing most magic-users, she annihilated it and killed thousands of beings in the process.
2) Caused the destruction of the Svirfneblin of Blindgenstone.
Compared to:
Caused the extinction of the entire race phaerimm (sp). Caused the annihilation of the most prominent beholder city. Caused the subjugation and absorption of the bedine tribes. Caused the conquest of Sembia. Assimilated the Kir-lanan as servants, created a new viable race of Shadar-kai.
3) Manipulated the war that created the Kingdom of Many-Arrows.
Compared to:
Manipulated the Twilight Wars to expand and strengthen the Empire of Shade.
4) Removed the Demonweb Pits from the Abyss.
Compared to
Taking the remnants of the negative energy plane and merging it with the shadow to create the Shadowfell and creating a domain larger than any other. She just didn't move anything, she made a plane on par with the Feywild.
5) Empowered herself from Intermediate Deity to something greater, without any further influence.
Compared to:
Even with the loss of the shadow weave and relevant worship that goes with it, Shar empowered herself to accomplish all prior reported feats as well as absorb the powers of other deities into herself.
6) Had Eilistraee/Vhaeraun killed.
Compared to:
Having Azuth, Savras, Mystra, etc. (the magic pantheon) killed as well as millions in the resulting spellplague.
Again, I am not saying that Shar could not accomplish each goal during times of rest. The point is she was unaffected by the spellplague as well as her followers, and still accomplished all this.
I respect your views, I just think the greater picture features Shar more prominently than you think.
EDIT: Okay, I can't say that...'Boob-for-Tat'. Okay, how is it that I can say that, but not the previous "censored" word.
Do the gods still need worshippers to survive or is that rulle gone 2? Sounds to me that 4e is becoming a moral inversion of what it was. These changes should have prob taken place over a greater period of time and should have been explained fully.
-Nothing has mentioned them not needing worshipers, so we should assume that they do.
Boob has various meanings while the other I believe has only one meaning if I'm not mistaken
That's all
Lol. I know Lord Karsus never meant it as a reference to breasts. Its just that I know program or whatever is monitoring the words typed can't differientiate between an adage and a slang word describing a certain part of the female anatomy which some may consider offensive. While "boob" is often used to describe an idiot(though it may have other meanings) and "breasts" is considered one the the medical terms for the same part of said anatomy. Thus the program may be thinking one is describing a passage in a bookk or a medical procedure.
That's all
Actually, what I meant to say that when the expression was invented, it likely wasn't referring to breasts. Sorry for the confusion.
No worries milady. Off topic I'm pretty sure it came from the saying "This for That" though don't know where that one was originated from.
Probably something to that effect.
Or am I missing something?
Didn't AO during the ToT pretty much say, MIND IT OR ELSE!!! And yet here we are a few years later and those same GODS blew up reality and yet AO does nothing...
-Yes, Ao did indeed "install" the mandate that the deities need to actively pay attention to their worshipers, by making their own power partially dependent on them.
Or am I missing something?
-Keep in mind, there are times when characters do things that aren't necessarily in character, and you have to use metagame reason to explain things, not in-game reason. Rich Baker has already told us that the designers did not like the concept of Ao, and so while Ao still exists, Ao's role is being minimalized to the point that he is rarely mentioned or spoken about.
-Yes, Ao did indeed "install" the mandate that the deities need to actively pay attention to their worshipers, by making their own power partially dependent on them.
-Keep in mind, there are times when characters do things that aren't necessarily in character, and you have to use metagame reason to explain things, not in-game reason. Rich Baker has already told us that the designers did not like the concept of Ao, and so while Ao still exists, Ao's role is being minimalized to the point that he is rarely mentioned or spoken about.
Then they should have killed AO first...It would not be hard to believe that SHAR was PO'd and wanted to make her plan work, and had to take out the head honcho first...
How dare the mortals ignore the overlord of the cosmos .
-Of Realmspace, anyway. That's what Ao wants, though. He began erasing traces of his own existence since his appearance over Waterdeep at the conclusion of the Time of Troubles.
How dare the mortals ignore the overlord of the cosmos.
He wants them to.
Yet we remember him. Waaiiiiitt does that mean we have evolved into divine beings? Or should I be expecting a mind wipe shortly? Because that would explain some of the things I have been forgetting lately!
-The second option, most likely.
Question. Is the 4e pantheon of forgotten realms balanced? If it is well that pretty much wwraps this thread up as well(sorry this question should have been asked earlier) because. Ao doesn't get involved unless the balance is seriously threatened.
Well, imho, things do seem to be tilted in favour of the evil gods nowadays.
Question. Is the 4e pantheon of forgotten realms balanced? If it is well that pretty much wwraps this thread up as well(sorry this question should have been asked earlier) because. Ao doesn't get involved unless the balance is seriously threatened.
-If you ask me, no. The 4e 'pantheon' is horrible. The "old" 'pantheon' was much better and preferable.
And while it may seem to be more on the evil side(mystras helms death and all). I'm pretty sure the evil gods have had their share of mishaps and deaths to balance it out.
As to the balance of the old pantheon, I think it was more realistic and representational of an actual living world, rather than the new one, which sacrificed believability for the sake of streamlining. Which is better? Its a matter of personal preference more than objective superiority.
As to the balance of the old pantheon, I think it was more realistic and representational of an actual living world, rather than the new one, which sacrificed believability for the sake of streamlining.
-Right. What Stigger said is the addendum to my post, there.
Ah my mistake. For some reason I thought balance meant yin and yang
-In terms of Ao's "ideal", I think it does: Good deities do good things, Evil deities do evil things, and the world goes on as ever, with him not having to step in and admonish people.
Everytime I played a wizard in 3e FR I felt like my character had to appease some almighty being or the magic will get pulled out of my poor characters hands.
Oh well, I'm glad I never felt that way.
Oh well, I'm glad I never felt that way.
Neither did I, and neither did an entire evil magocracy(Thay), where worship of Mystra and Azuth was pretty much illegal.:D
And look what happen to them.
Yeah. I'm still smiling when I think of that event.
At the end, though, the fact remains that the Red Wizards spent more than 300 years being thoroughly evil bastards who never paid even lip service to the two main deities of magic.
Even at the end, it wasn't Azuth or Mystra who brought Thay low, but the unbelievably stupid hubris of an undead man who up to then I held to be one of the few villains who was somewhat competent, intelligent, and not a complete retard.
In fact I'm surprised Szass Tam, given this spectacular moment of lunacy, wasn't made an exarch of Cyric. :D (jabs Delta with a pointy stick)
At the end, though, the fact remains that the Red Wizards spent more than 300 years being thoroughly evil bastards who never paid even lip service to the two main deities of magic.
-Just goes to show that whatever deities you worship don't have to be based on your "job/class".