Applying 4E Alignment/Cosmology Assumptions to the Realms - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Applying 4E Alignment/Cosmology Assumptions to the Realms

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
thecasualoblivion
Aug 28, 2008 9:40:48 I tried to bring this up before, but I didn't state things well and the conversation went nowhere.

The Core 4E books put in some assumptions on gods and their roles that were different from previous editions. These changes are something I've seen as a vast improvement. Unlike the Core game which can abandon the past history of such things, the Realms requires some evolutionary change and retconning to achieve this. This issue was actually left out of the 4E FR Campaign guide, which leaves me to assume that they left it to individual DMs on how to handle the new 4E style gods/alignment as applied to how the Realms have been.

The main assumptions of 4E cosmology as I see them:

1. Gods are distant--This goes against what has been the norm in FR. The FR gods have tended to be characters who actually interact with the world. While the descriptions in the FRCG tend to be more remote than was the case in previous editions, this isn't exactly spelled out.

2. Light vs. Darkness replaces the alignment wheel--The old cosmology treated the nine alignments as all having a unique and legitimate place in the universe. 4E has thrown that out the window, drawing new lines between civilization(LG, G, and unaligned gods) and the forces of darkness. It isn't specifically stated anywhere, but it is implied that Evil isn't a necessary part of the cosmos as it has been in the past, and is now simply Evil. Note that "balance" as in choosing to stand on the fence is largely gone, as Evil no longer has a legitimate place granted to it by the great wheel. This has a big impact on the Realms, as all past history has been based on the assumptions of the Alignment wheel and its consequences(such as murder being part of a "portfolio" assigned by a higher power). The assumptions of the old FR and 4E aren't terribly compatible in regards to this, and I find it interesting that the FRCG has basically left this blank, describing things in 4E terms without disavowing what came before.

This leaves three basic options to proceed with the game:

1. Same as it ever was--The FRCG does not rule out the way things were, so you can continue with the old assumptions

2. The Spellplague has changed everything--The history is intact, but one of the aftereffects of the Spellplague was that the gods became distant from day to day Faerun, and that the nine alignments have little impact on things.

3. Starting fresh--Mostly an option for new players who never touched the Realms before and aren't planning on reading past or future novels, in this case you just start the Realms from day one based on 4E cosmology as if it has always been that way.

Personally, I'm looking at #2 with a bit of #3. Basically, to me the Spellplague has changed things and the old history will remain, but I'm retconning the old Alignment wheel out of existence(it never happened, and its effects on history will be retconned).
#2
karazhan
Aug 28, 2008 10:21:24 @thecasualoblivion,

You make some very good points in your post. Personally, I think the spellplague scared the heck out of the remaining deities and they are choosing to remain more distant because they realize just how vulnerable they can be to "death". I think a big change in 4E is stating that deities are not all-knowing or all-powerful beings and that they can die. I believe this is the case because in the MM entry under dragons they say that even gods fear to face the very ancient ones.

I also think this is why they have pushed exarchs more as being the ones doing the day to day PR for their patrons. After all, with Fzoul in Faerun handling things Bane can be safe in his bastion plotting. With the primordials loose, a new continent of dragon overlords, and the aboleth kingdom, I certainly would lay low for a bit to reevaluate my options.

Just a thought
#3
thecasualoblivion
Aug 28, 2008 11:56:30 The whole scared thing is how I'm handling it, particularly in terms of Bane and Shar. Both of them have taken a step back and have been letting their churches do things without their active participation. Bane has been concentrating more on consolidating power instead of taking agressive action. Shar has been keeping a low profile to avoid people taking revenge for her role in the spellplague.

Cyric isn't scared, and probably got a rise out of triggering the spellplague. If he wasn't imprisoned, he'd probably be trying to cause another cataclysmic event as his first priority. Something like murdering one of the dawn titans to provoke another war between gods and primordials. He's only distant because of his imprisonment.
#4
rinonalyrna_fathomlin
Aug 28, 2008 12:32:46 Eh, I don't think it's really an issue, because (in my opinion) the gods were always supposed to have acted mostly through their followers.
#5
thecasualoblivion
Aug 28, 2008 13:11:30 Point taken, though the gods got pretty active with the Time of Troubles and all. I would still argue that removing the Great Wheel and its implications is a bigger change than gods being distant.
#6
fodigg
Aug 28, 2008 14:42:07 I'm looking at it from a "rebuilding" point of view.

I still want to include a "gods walk the earth" feel however. To me, this is one of the defining aspects of the setting.
#7
rinonalyrna_fathomlin
Aug 28, 2008 14:45:01
Point taken, though the gods got pretty active with the Time of Troubles and all.

Right, but the ToT is supposed to be an atypical event, not a typical one.
#8
Grazel
Aug 29, 2008 0:51:17 Also the Gods are hinted at still being quite active in Toril, just not as openly so. Selune's domain still has doors to inns all over Toril for one.

I think the main distance is in how gods grant spells to their clerics. It's no longer a metered out sample of spells picked in advance channelled apparently through the weave. Now they just grant their clerics a bit of their divine spark and the cleric uses it to channel divine powers or enhance their attacks.

Also as stated the gods seem to mostly work through exarchs now and there was a recent comment somewhere (though I can't find it) that made it sound like the FRPG will have a Chosen epic destiny or something similar so gods can once more have Chosen (the Spellplague and other events seems to have removed all the current Chosen from play).

As for the great wheel and alignments. While the wheel represented older edition alignments they were meant to embody various philosophies. Those philosophies still exist even though they're not longer all tied to an alignment on a one-for-one basis. This actually gives more flexibility for working the philosophy without boxing it into some predefined alignment's definition. It also means that things like murder can now cover a wider range of 'alignment' since murder wile generally evil doesn't lend itself well to a restrction of law-chaos.

I wouldn't say the Great Wheel and the philosophies never happened just that with the cosmological upheaval things aren't always as clear cut as they used to be but the underlying philosophies are still there, they just don't always have a meta-game term to identify them (as in alignment).
#9
lord_karsus
Aug 30, 2008 13:09:13
Point taken, though the gods got pretty active with the Time of Troubles and all. I would still argue that removing the Great Wheel and its implications is a bigger change than gods being distant.

-The Great Wheel was removed in 3e already, in Player's Guide to Faerûn, with no real noticeable impact on the setting, in such that things continued to work the way they always have, however using the retconned in Great Tree instead of the Great Wheel.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 thecasualoblivion Aug 28, 2008 9:40:48	I tried to bring this up before, but I didn't state things well and the conversation went nowhere. The Core 4E books put in some assumptions on gods and their roles that were different from previous editions. These changes are something I've seen as a vast improvement. Unlike the Core game which can abandon the past history of such things, the Realms requires some evolutionary change and retconning to achieve this. This issue was actually left out of the 4E FR Campaign guide, which leaves me to assume that they left it to individual DMs on how to handle the new 4E style gods/alignment as applied to how the Realms have been. The main assumptions of 4E cosmology as I see them: 1. Gods are distant--This goes against what has been the norm in FR. The FR gods have tended to be characters who actually interact with the world. While the descriptions in the FRCG tend to be more remote than was the case in previous editions, this isn't exactly spelled out. 2. Light vs. Darkness replaces the alignment wheel--The old cosmology treated the nine alignments as all having a unique and legitimate place in the universe. 4E has thrown that out the window, drawing new lines between civilization(LG, G, and unaligned gods) and the forces of darkness. It isn't specifically stated anywhere, but it is implied that Evil isn't a necessary part of the cosmos as it has been in the past, and is now simply Evil. Note that "balance" as in choosing to stand on the fence is largely gone, as Evil no longer has a legitimate place granted to it by the great wheel. This has a big impact on the Realms, as all past history has been based on the assumptions of the Alignment wheel and its consequences(such as murder being part of a "portfolio" assigned by a higher power). The assumptions of the old FR and 4E aren't terribly compatible in regards to this, and I find it interesting that the FRCG has basically left this blank, describing things in 4E terms without disavowing what came before. This leaves three basic options to proceed with the game: 1. Same as it ever was--The FRCG does not rule out the way things were, so you can continue with the old assumptions 2. The Spellplague has changed everything--The history is intact, but one of the aftereffects of the Spellplague was that the gods became distant from day to day Faerun, and that the nine alignments have little impact on things. 3. Starting fresh--Mostly an option for new players who never touched the Realms before and aren't planning on reading past or future novels, in this case you just start the Realms from day one based on 4E cosmology as if it has always been that way. Personally, I'm looking at #2 with a bit of #3. Basically, to me the Spellplague has changed things and the old history will remain, but I'm retconning the old Alignment wheel out of existence(it never happened, and its effects on history will be retconned).
#2 karazhan Aug 28, 2008 10:21:24	@thecasualoblivion, You make some very good points in your post. Personally, I think the spellplague scared the heck out of the remaining deities and they are choosing to remain more distant because they realize just how vulnerable they can be to "death". I think a big change in 4E is stating that deities are not all-knowing or all-powerful beings and that they can die. I believe this is the case because in the MM entry under dragons they say that even gods fear to face the very ancient ones. I also think this is why they have pushed exarchs more as being the ones doing the day to day PR for their patrons. After all, with Fzoul in Faerun handling things Bane can be safe in his bastion plotting. With the primordials loose, a new continent of dragon overlords, and the aboleth kingdom, I certainly would lay low for a bit to reevaluate my options. Just a thought
#3 thecasualoblivion Aug 28, 2008 11:56:30	The whole scared thing is how I'm handling it, particularly in terms of Bane and Shar. Both of them have taken a step back and have been letting their churches do things without their active participation. Bane has been concentrating more on consolidating power instead of taking agressive action. Shar has been keeping a low profile to avoid people taking revenge for her role in the spellplague. Cyric isn't scared, and probably got a rise out of triggering the spellplague. If he wasn't imprisoned, he'd probably be trying to cause another cataclysmic event as his first priority. Something like murdering one of the dawn titans to provoke another war between gods and primordials. He's only distant because of his imprisonment.
#4 rinonalyrna_fathomlin Aug 28, 2008 12:32:46	Eh, I don't think it's really an issue, because (in my opinion) the gods were always supposed to have acted mostly through their followers.
#5 thecasualoblivion Aug 28, 2008 13:11:30	Point taken, though the gods got pretty active with the Time of Troubles and all. I would still argue that removing the Great Wheel and its implications is a bigger change than gods being distant.
#6 fodigg Aug 28, 2008 14:42:07	I'm looking at it from a "rebuilding" point of view. I still want to include a "gods walk the earth" feel however. To me, this is one of the defining aspects of the setting.
#7 rinonalyrna_fathomlin Aug 28, 2008 14:45:01	Point taken, though the gods got pretty active with the Time of Troubles and all. Right, but the ToT is supposed to be an atypical event, not a typical one.
#8 Grazel Aug 29, 2008 0:51:17	Also the Gods are hinted at still being quite active in Toril, just not as openly so. Selune's domain still has doors to inns all over Toril for one. I think the main distance is in how gods grant spells to their clerics. It's no longer a metered out sample of spells picked in advance channelled apparently through the weave. Now they just grant their clerics a bit of their divine spark and the cleric uses it to channel divine powers or enhance their attacks. Also as stated the gods seem to mostly work through exarchs now and there was a recent comment somewhere (though I can't find it) that made it sound like the FRPG will have a Chosen epic destiny or something similar so gods can once more have Chosen (the Spellplague and other events seems to have removed all the current Chosen from play). As for the great wheel and alignments. While the wheel represented older edition alignments they were meant to embody various philosophies. Those philosophies still exist even though they're not longer all tied to an alignment on a one-for-one basis. This actually gives more flexibility for working the philosophy without boxing it into some predefined alignment's definition. It also means that things like murder can now cover a wider range of 'alignment' since murder wile generally evil doesn't lend itself well to a restrction of law-chaos. I wouldn't say the Great Wheel and the philosophies never happened just that with the cosmological upheaval things aren't always as clear cut as they used to be but the underlying philosophies are still there, they just don't always have a meta-game term to identify them (as in alignment).
#9 lord_karsus Aug 30, 2008 13:09:13	Point taken, though the gods got pretty active with the Time of Troubles and all. I would still argue that removing the Great Wheel and its implications is a bigger change than gods being distant. -The Great Wheel was removed in 3e already, in Player's Guide to Faerûn, with no real noticeable impact on the setting, in such that things continued to work the way they always have, however using the retconned in Great Tree instead of the Great Wheel.