What would the typical role be of a priestess of Araushnee in early Dark Elven society? Blessing of births seems a good candidate, as this allows her priests to predict the destiny of children from the first moment their souls take a breath. Writing history might have been their task aswell as sometimes fate becomes apparent only through carefull consideration of the current lives of subjects of fate.
Any other clues about the worship and clergy of Araushnee?
-A temple of Araushnee is mentioned in Ascendancy of the Last. This, of course, is impossible, as Araushnee never existed on Abeir-Toril as Araushnee. When she first learned of Realmspace (circa -24,000 DR), she was already Lolth, having been cast from the Seldarine already. It is possible, however, that the temple is a temple to Lolth, in a debased and "proto" form, before Lolth made herself known and her worship was still in it's infancy.
Corellon was the one who gave his wife, brothers, sisters and children tasks to uphold. Araushnee got the guidance of their children, the fickle and boisterous young dark elves, but gave Araushnee a larger role within the pantheon as well by allowing her to record and track all elves fate. She did this by spinning their tales woven in silken threads. Artifice might have been granted to her for her tastes in the aesthetics and her graceful tools of invention she made.
Tintageer in the Feywild might have Temples to Araushnee, and with the closing ties between the Feywild and Abeir-Toril, old temples to her might still be found in the "southern" parts of Tintageer (and might even appear on moonlit nights in darker woods in Fearun on feywild crossings).
-Tintageer was destroyed. That was why the Moon and Sun Elves immigrants from Tintageer came to Realmspace. It certainly is plausible, however, that temples or shrines of Araushnee exist elsewhere on the Plane of Faerie. Though she was indeed the patron of the Dark Elves, I never really saw the Dark Elves as a very devout people. Even after they became Drow, I don't see them as devout. The majority of Drow society is run by Lolthites, but I see her worship really as a means to power, rather than anything deeper.
- is also the name given to her specialty priestesses / prestige class). So Spider might be involved there, but not in the "vermin" sort of way of the later ages. Chaos is AFAIK part of every Elven faith, so there is no reason why she shouldn't have that. Destiny / Fate might be another, perhaps Protection in relation to her dark kin.So her temples in the Feywild might have survived the ages. What would make a good location? Being a kind of oracle goddes she likely had shrines in semi-remote areas nearby elven feywild-settlements. Her priesthood would likely be counsilers in al things of importance in destiny like birth, childhood raising, prophesies and omens and would guide most intricate large scale artifice.
Her clergies favored weapon might have been different, with the dagger, spear or net as a likely candidate in likeness of Araushnee's Fang/Needle/Web. I still think the spiderweaver theme was already present in Araushnee and her followers, as even Sehanine uses morningdewed cobwebs as signs of her favor, and the mystical strands of fate that she as a motherfigure would care for would be represented by long silken cobwebs that would adorn her temples.
Chaos is AFAIK part of every Elven faith, so there is no reason why she shouldn't have that.
-Being chaotic is part of the "Elven Way", but I don't know...I always equate 'Chaos' with Slaad, and general bad things. I just don't like 'chaos'.
Araushnee still stirs the heart of Correllon, there might be reconciliation between the two dieties, but the two races are to far apart for that to happen soon.
-Maybe. Maybe not. Lolth is directly responsible for the death of both of Corellon Larethian's children- Eilistraee and Vhaeraun (the Masked Lady). Would two people be able to reconcile their differences after such a 'traumatic' thing? Russel Yates certainly wasn't able, after the things his wife, Andrea, did.
So her temples in the Feywild might have survived the ages. What would make a good location? Being a kind of oracle goddes she likely had shrines in semi-remote areas nearby elven feywild-settlements. Her priesthood would likely be counsilers in al things of importance in destiny like birth, childhood raising, prophesies and omens and would guide most intricate large scale artifice.
-Where ever you like. There isn't an 'official' map of the Plane of Faerie (or rather, I refuse to recognize any one map, that WotC, or any other entities create), so you can have such places where ever you like. The Plane of Faerie is certainly fey and eldritch enough to house such places anywhere. Perhaps the Queen of Air and Darkness has corrupted these sites, working in unison with Lolth? Food for thought.
Her clergies favored weapon might have been different, with the dagger, spear or net as a likely candidate in likeness of Araushnee's Fang/Needle/Web. I still think the spiderweaver theme was already present in Araushnee and her followers, as even Sehanine uses morningdewed cobwebs as signs of her favor, and the mystical strands of fate that she as a motherfigure would care for would be represented by long silken cobwebs that would adorn her temples.
-In the end, it's all up to you. Again, Araushnee certainly used web and weaving motifs, but I don't necessarily equate that to spiders. Like I said, weavers weave, and they are not spiders. The weapons, though, work, and I agree with them.
-Maybe. Maybe not. Lolth is directly responsible for the death of both of Corellon Larethian's children- Eilistraee and Vhaeraun (the Masked Lady). Would two people be able to reconcile their differences after such a 'traumatic' thing? Russel Yates certainly wasn't able, after the things his wife, Andrea, did.
But they're not "people". You're equating deities with mortals?
-In the end, it's all up to you. Again, Araushnee certainly used web and weaving motifs, but I don't necessarily equate that to spiders. Like I said, weavers weave, and they are not spiders. The weapons, though, work, and I agree with them.
Weavers are people, and I doubt a deity would choose a holy animal of their choice as a person who weaves. Lol. Spiders aren't necessarily evil, mind you, so should not factor into the good/evil argument for a deity's portfolio/domain. I think the Spider domain fits both Araushnee and Lolth. They are nature's best weavers; delicate and stealthy. It is a JUST punishment (and ironic) for Corellon to turn Lolth into a twisted version of her holy animal/insect. But hey, that's just me.
But they're not "people."
No, but is there any denying their anthropomorphic design?
But they're not "people". You're equating deities with mortals?
-Yes. We have nothing else to base their behavior and personality on.
Weavers are people, and I doubt a deity would choose a holy animal of their choice as a person who weaves.
-...Right. What I said was, having to do with weaving and webs does not translate necessarily into spiders, as there are things other than spiders that can, or have the ability to weave things.
No, but is there any denying their anthropomorphic design?
No, we (ppl both fictional and real), perceive them as close to us in design/form as it is the only way to make sense of them deities. But they could just be blobs of energy when no mortal is looking in on 'em. (like toy story)
But they could just be blobs of energy...
-That is indeed what deities are. They have no true forms, and can, at will take whatever forms suit their purposes. Deities are simply beings of divine energy. The glimpses of the meetings at the Cynosure, in which each deity appears different to the view, is evidence of this.
-That is indeed what deities are. They have no true forms, and can, at will take whatever forms suit their purposes. Deities are simply beings of divine energy. The glimpses of the meetings at the Cynosure, in which each deity appears different to the view, is evidence of this.
No, it is evidence of their divine and magical nature! :P
Don't forget she was the patron deity of the dark elves before they got transformed into the drow. So she was worshipped in the Realms before the Crown Wars.
Picture a typical Araushnee priest. Lets give him (yes its a handsome dark elven chap with dusky skin and beige hair, blue eyes) an ornate mithril spear, a mithril chain shirt, white robes with delicate silken ribbons and a netted silvery grey silken cloak. What would be his holy symbol? A miniature spear pointing downwards in a web? A dagger? An ornate shield? The head of a crowned beautiful dark elven woman?
No, it is evidence of their divine and magical nature! :P
-Isn't that what I said?
Don't forget she was the patron deity of the dark elves before they got transformed into the drow. So she was worshipped in the Realms before the Crown Wars.
-Incorrect, in that Araushnee was worshiped specifically. As I said earlier, she first learned of Realmspace circa -24,000 DR. At this point, she was already Lolth. Her worship wasn't formalized until after the Descent of the Drow, so worshipers at this time may have been worshiping Lolth in a variety of ways that wouldn't make sense to Drow today- thinking she was something other than what she is, thinking she did things other than what she does, etc.- but they were worshiping Lolth, not Araushnee. Lolth had already abandoned the name by this point.
Toril isn't the only world in the multiverse, and it's been 'interloped' to by others through its entire existance... hence the name of the setting.
The lack of evidence for something is not necessarily proof of it's opposite (as we've come to learn in FR). If canon says it was a church of Araushnee, then we CANNOT so lightly dismiss it. Instead we must look beyond the inconsistencies - as we so often do - and create a reasonable back-story as to why such a thing could be.
Its our job as Keepers of the True Realms to do just that. ;)
Her banishment from Arvandor might have effected and severed her ability to percieve her worshippers through her Temples to Araushnee, "blinding" her. Her former followers must have experienced a divine silence of a couple of aeons as Lolth was severed from her duty as patron of dark elves (Corellons banishment must have severed her from her Arvandorian duties aswell). Her insight into Torils opportunities were only later reinvigorated when she got a firm hold in the demonweb pits of the Abyss. Perhaps the Queen of Air and Darkness of the Unseelie court held watch over her former Temples as an act of foresight to be bargained against Lolths alliance in some future conflicts.
Back to the topic: I'd give Araushnee the Chaos, Art, Trickery, Fate domains. Favored weapon: long sword or spear (both suit her better). ALignment: CN
Fate, dark elves, chaos, and luck or trickery would be my choices. And a whip as her favored weapon ;)
Perhaps the Queen of Air and Darkness of the Unseelie court held watch over her former Temples as an act of foresight to be bargained against Lolths alliance in some future conflicts.
I am SO going to steal that.
Excellent suggestion, Suin.
If a group of Elves (or Eladrin, in 4e) emigrated over from another sphere that was settled earlier then Realmspace, they may be worshipping an earlier aspect of Araushnee (as unlikely as that is). Ergo, it is entirely possible that a temple of Araushnee to exist, however unlikely.
-That still wouldn't work. Lolth would have been aware of the existence of Realmspace before -24,000+/- if this was the case.
The lack of evidence for something is not necessarily proof of it's opposite (as we've come to learn in FR). If canon says it was a church of Araushnee, then we CANNOT so lightly dismiss it. Instead we must look beyond the inconsistencies - as we so often do - and create a reasonable back-story as to why such a thing could be.
Its our job as Keepers of the True Realms to do just that. ;)
-As I say time and time again, there are many inconsistencies that exist in the setting that cannot be "solved". Such things can only be dismissed because of the problems that they cause, in relation to the rest of established continuity. It's not something that should be done lightly, but it is something that has to be done from time to time because of the problems such gaffes cause.
Her banishment from Arvandor might have effected and severed her ability to percieve her worshippers through her Temples to Araushnee, "blinding" her. Her former followers must have experienced a divine silence of a couple of aeons as Lolth was severed from her duty as patron of dark elves (Corellons banishment must have severed her from her Arvandorian duties aswell). Her insight into Torils opportunities were only later reinvigorated when she got a firm hold in the demonweb pits of the Abyss. Perhaps the Queen of Air and Darkness of the Unseelie court held watch over her former Temples as an act of foresight to be bargained against Lolths alliance in some future conflicts.
-There is no established lore supporting this, and there is already precedent that debunks this, in a way. When the Imaskari kidnapped the Egyptians and the Mesopotamians, their deities were barred from entering into Realmspace. They still, however, were able to perceive what was happening to their worshipers, knowing the need to turn into "living avatars" and such to help the people.
The Mulhorandi and Untheric gods were actual divine entities, Araushnee was stripped of hers at first and had to claw her way up to ascension from tanari state. Her early banishment would likely have made her blind to her worshippers.
Lady Pentinent is established lore.
-Established lore that, as I said earlier, is incorrect, and cannot be reconciled without making blind guesses in the dark and making things up.
Her early banishment would likely have made her blind to her worshippers.
-No it would not have. Are Demon Lords and Archdevils blind to those that worship them? When Asmodeus became a deity in the FRCG, did it mention his transformation causing him to "lose" his former worshipers, who worshiped him as an Archdevil, and not as a deity? Because, that is the exact converse of this situation.
Another explanation could be that Shrines and Temples to Gods use links (such as sanctified altars and statues) to their dieties homeplane or domains. Araushnees temples would still be linked to Arvandor, and only by reshaping them to Temples of Lolth (a practise most drow would do when they would stumble apon a Temple to Araushnee) would they function as focal points of scrying for Lolth.
I give you that her worshippers would still allow her power. But only a divinity can "see" through its worshippers (which enables their partial omniscience). Demonlords need underlings or regular scrying to get their information of the primes (lacking omniscience but having great intellect).
-That the entity would not be able to "see" into the Crystal Sphere is not entirely needed. The worshipers would give the Demon Lord/Archdevil/Whatever Entity power. In turn, the Demon Lord/Archdevil/Whatever Entity would know about the existence of whatever Crystal Sphere, as the Demon Lord/Archdevil/Whatever Entity would be receiving power from those worshipers, and (most likely) be granting them spells to spread their agenda, name, and whatever else.
Another explanation could be that Shrines and Temples to Gods use links (such as sanctified altars and statues) to their dieties homeplane or domains. Araushnees temples would still be linked to Arvandor, and only by reshaping them to Temples of Lolth (a practise most drow would do when they would stumble apon a Temple to Araushnee) would they function as focal points of scrying for Lolth.
-If these places existed before Araushnee was cast down, Lolth would have known about Realmspace before -24,000+/-. If they were created after Araushnee was cast down, Lolth should have still been made aware of them, as she was Araushnee, and the worship (however wrong or outdated it was) was going to her.
Unseelie feywild crossings on Fearun might hold the path to a Temple of Araushnee.
Might be that the Vhaerunite clergies were actively withholding her worship early on as he seemed to be the most popular "god" among the early faerunian dark elves. Perhaps he heard those Araushnee worshippers more clearly due to his earlier links to Toril and withheld any information of it out of spite to his mother or in some scheme with the Unseelie.
I even suspect Sehanine or Angharradh replacing and defacing some temples of Araushnee early on after her fall because of their spite on Araushnee's treachery.
So all but the leader of the anti seldarine get to have shrines in Attornash.
-The Anti-Seldarine is a very loose grouping. It's roster changes, and most of the deities in the Anti-Seldarine hate each other, and are only grouped in together because they all have a similar worship base- the Drow. That said, it is highly unlikely that either Kiaransalee, Eilistraee, or Malar- all of whom were members of the Anti-Seldarine at one point or another- had places of worship in Atorrnash. The 'formal' Anti-Seldarine, as we know it now, did not exist at this point, yet.
Where was this temple to Araushnee located?
-I'll have to get back to you on that one. It was mentioned (and featured, I believe, in the climax of) Ascendancy of the Last.
Perhaps that was far away from Attornash, beloging to a different ancient dark elven tribe. Only if the first years after their banishment seperated the anti seldarine would the knowledge of Fearun have eluded the patron of the dark elves. So the dark elven seldarine where banished to seperate planes (perhaps travelling first through the Unseelie forrests after the fall to the Abyss). And during this time Sehanine (still in full power and even stronger in her tripart form) must have thought of ways to protect her children by weaving protective illusions over her worlds. Only by breaking through Sehanines veil could Lolth establish the new wonders of Post Dragonage Toril.
-I still do not buy or accept that Lolth either: (A) Knew about Realmspace, but forgot about it, for whatever reason, or (B) Lolth's knowledge of Realmspace was "cloaked" by whomever, with entities existing on Realmspace continuing to worship her, as Araushnee.
My point was that they could have been worshipping Araushnee on some little back-water sphere for 10,000 years or so, and then a group of them wandered through a portal to Toril.
A least a few of them, at any rate - enough to establish a single anachronistic church to ASraushnee within the Realms. ;)
If they had lost touch with their 'Fey' heritage earlier then most, they may have been unaware of the disconnect between Araushnee and the Seldarine, nor her fall. It doesn't really matter who we say was answering her worshipper's prayers - although I do really like the QoA&D - because it was on some unknown sphere that probably was so insignificant that the Seldarine ignored it, for the most part.
Most especially if it was just a small group of dark Elves, who were primarily followers of the 'Weave Mistress'.
Hey! That last part made me just think of something (homebrew) intersting - what if Shar had Lolth's help building the Shadow Weave? After all, 'weaving' is part of her portfolio, and building a large, shadowy web-like structure of magic around realmspace sounds like somethig Lolth would be in on.
Perhaps some backwater area dark elves in Toril have been visited by unseelie Le'Shay, who being timeless beings still hold memory of Araushnee and what she represents and sometimes erect shrines to her while empowering QoA&D and later Lolth.
Weren't Vhaeraun and Eilistraee the children of Corellon and Araushnee? So shouldn't Araushnee be in the realms before -24,000, since Vhaeraun and Eilistraee were already there?
Yeah, that's what I mean too.
-Araushnee was no more, but Lolth still existed. When a woman changes her last name after marriage, she is no longer Ms. X. She is Mrs. Y. She remains the same person despite the name change, however. Araushnee's True Name, Lolth's True Name, would have remained the same, despite the loss of her initial divinity, her subsequent name change, and her eventual reclamation of being a divine entity. If temples of Araushnee existed in Realmspace before -24,000+/-, Lolth would have been aware of them, and by proxy, Realmspace. Though her name may have been different, and her outlook on things different, veneration was being paid to the same entity. Precedent has been set that individuals preying to a specific deity can be "heard" and "answered" by another deity posing as that deity. Lolth answers Moander's cultists, under the guise of Moander. Likewise, Elves could have been praying to Araushnee, and Lolth would have "heard" them, if you want to go with the idea that the "link" between Araushnee and Lolth was severed, in terms of worship and such.
Not buying the True Name remaining the same... True Names are supposed to be reflective of the nature of an entity or thing, summing up their entire existence with a single word, or possibly phrase. When she changed from Deity to Demon, the name would change with her, altering itself to reflect her new essence. I could very well be that she didn't know her True Name after the alteration and had to spend time and energy figuring it out again, and that it was during that period of uncertainty over herself and her nature that she was blind to anything invoking her name or an alias. Perhaps she heard them, but until she understood herself again, she couldn't do much about hearing them, even if they may have given her clues as to what her new True Name was. There's plenty of room to maneuver on that issue really, allowing it to make sense within established continuity.
Hey! That last part made me just think of something (homebrew) intersting - what if Shar had Lolth's help building the Shadow Weave? After all, 'weaving' is part of her portfolio, and building a large, shadowy web-like structure of magic around realmspace sounds like somethig Lolth would be in on.
I don't think Lolth would EVER work with Shar. Lolth likes using deities who are easy to manipulate and who she can use her exotic beauty to influence....in other words she usually targets male gods though it was written she has worked with Loviatar before. Loviatar doesn't have much influence though.
Shar would try to kill Lolth in a heartbeat to claim the drow and the darkness portfolios.
Drow are still elves, a highly magical race, and thus work better with an affinity to the Weave than the Shadow Weave.
---
So are there any referances to Araushnee's holy symbol?
I don't think I have ever seen a reference to what Araushnee's holy symbol was.
*Goes of searching for his copy*
Hmm. That Spider Queen has an interisting holy symbol: a silvery web on a black diamond...
I might steal that for my Araushnee cleric.
I remember that book had very interesting demi-gods as well.
*Goes of searching for his copy*
Yeah I liked how they had the 8 "claws" of the Spider Queen....they are the demi-gods you are thinking of. The profile though on their Spider Queen feels more complete in its description of "Lolth" and all the sphere of influence she has.
I am glad WOTC got rid of the awful holy symbol of Lolth they had for 3E - it always looked too goofy. I like the new symbol better......odd that it is so close to Corellon's....but then that might have been on purpose....I can see Lolth doing that on purpose.
They changed her webdipping female headed black spider?
Yep it is now a 8 pointed web "star" with gemstone in middle .....very close to Corellon's star symbol.
Star symbol? When did it change from the crescent moon? I don't even remember seeing illustrations of holy symbols...
Corellon's and Lolth's symbol changed as of 4E.
Here is Lolth's new symbol
I actually wanted to see how different is the Spider Queen from her former self ;)
Well, I've heard someone wanted to revert Lloth to Araushnee...
I actually wanted to see how different is the Spider Queen from her former self ;)
Not much, if you take her description in Evermeet, the only ones we have of her. You see, even now, Lolth is not just all about spiders. But tell that to the populace.
Hmmm... I think I prefer the new one to her old one.
Yep her symbol is MUCH better now. :D
BTW, anyone actually willing to play in a Realmsworld of 20,000odd years ago, a world we know next to nothing about?
I'm fishing for details about Araushnee's clergy because I want to include a Web of Fate temple in the Feywild as a place where my PC's get a prophetic message. The guardians for this particular temple would be unaligned or unseelie fey, led by a Le'Shay cleric of Araushnee. The prophecy would involve a plot to reestablish the faith in the Unseelie Court in a remote green elven settlement through deception by granting the green elves the means to stop a mixed dwarven and human settlement from expanding into the greens territory. They would be granted fey-like spiders and ghostly ettercaps as an army to scare away any interlopers.
This would all be in the present times...
But playing during the Dragon Ages some 20.000 years ago? Definately interrested in experiencing that time someday. This age feels EPIC. Bladesingers and Highmages battling dragons singlehandedly, dwarven dragon meets, huge and advanced dragonruled hobgoblin armies, the availability of 12th level spells, humans running around in bearskins... I positively love to see a supplement come available for this.
Indeed true... she's more about Evil Spiders, which is a significant difference. :P :D
There are no "evil" spiders.
Weren't Vhaeraun and Eilistraee the children of Corellon and Araushnee? So shouldn't Araushnee be in the realms before -24,000, since Vhaeraun and Eilistraee were already there?
-No. Eilistraee and Vhaeraun were indeed their children. When a kid moves out, do their parents know where they are, and what they are doing 24/7, though?
Not buying the True Name remaining the same... True Names are supposed to be reflective of the nature of an entity or thing, summing up their entire existence with a single word, or possibly phrase. When she changed from Deity to Demon, the name would change with her, altering itself to reflect her new essence. I could very well be that she didn't know her True Name after the alteration and had to spend time and energy figuring it out again, and that it was during that period of uncertainty over herself and her nature that she was blind to anything invoking her name or an alias. Perhaps she heard them, but until she understood herself again, she couldn't do much about hearing them, even if they may have given her clues as to what her new True Name was. There's plenty of room to maneuver on that issue really, allowing it to make sense within established continuity.
-I don't agree with that. Like I said, when a woman changes her name when married, she still is the same person, right? Likewise, here, with Araushnee/Lolth. I don't think a True Name changes when the person changes. Angry LK's True Name is the same as sad LK's True Name, which is the same as happy LK's True Name, and so on. Grown up LK's True Name is the same as little LK's True Name, even though, being grown up, I am very much a different person than I was when I was a little kid.
...and rose to a height twice that of an elf. The creature's hornded head had a face that reminded Kethryllia of a slaverin, battle-mad wild boar. Its massive body was shaped like that of an orc, but an extra pair of muscled arms erupted from its hairless torso. Wings like that of a gigantic bat sprung from its shoulders. Except for a pair of burning crimson eyes, the creature was the dull and lifeless color of dessicated wood.
Seems like a kind of hybride between Glabrezu and Balor to me. I first thought it could also be a Nalfeshnee, but they have one pair of arms and small wings.
-I don't agree with that. Like I said, when a woman changes her name when married, she still is the same person, right? Likewise, here, with Araushnee/Lolth. I don't think a True Name changes when the person changes. Angry LK's True Name is the same as sad LK's True Name, which is the same as happy LK's True Name, and so on. Grown up LK's True Name is the same as little LK's True Name, even though, being grown up, I am very much a different person than I was when I was a little kid.
Except you're talking about emotional states, rather than a fundamental change in nature. Is LK's True Name as a Human the same as it is for LK's True Name after he becomes a Dretch, or LK the Glabrezu? Nope... much the same for Araushnee/Lolth.
Sorry for a little question off topic, but I do not know where to sort it in. In Elaine Cunninghams novel is a servant of Lolth mentioned, the demon Haeshkarr. What I am not sure about, which kind of demon is he? First I thought Glabrezu, but the description in the novel did not match.
Seems like a kind of hybride between Glabrezu and Balor to me. I first thought it could also be a Nalfeshnee, but they have one pair of arms and small wings.
I wondered about it too. My guess was balor or pit fiend.
Well, I'd think that when one undergoes dramatic changes, he'd change his True Name too. And that's the case with Araushnee/ Lloth.
-Why? I don't think that. Hercules the mortal eventually became Hercules the deity. Same guy. People who win the lotto often go from not having much, to being rich. Same people. Some kid who sees the horrors of war, and his mind snaps, and he goes insane. Same guy. Some person who loses a limb, and as such, their entire demeanor changes (ie, Lieutenant Dan, from Forest Gump)? Same guy, ultimately. Can True Names change? Why, and when? And, what happens to the 'old' True Names? I forget the name of the principle, but the most logical explanation for something is normally the best explanation, barring an actual explanation. The notion that True Names change, all of the above needs to be answered, whereas the notion that they don't doesn't.
Obviously, Araushnee ain't Lolth's "true name".
-Yes, we know this. We don't know her True Name, however.
Haven't dealt much with truenames before, but could have a look at this great Tome of Magic of mine. (I like the shadowcasters and their ilk much more!)
-Most discussion isn't 100% from the Tome of Magic explanation of True Names, but rather, more of the general Tolkienesque view, where knowing something's True Name gives you power over it.
Except you're talking about emotional states, rather than a fundamental change in nature. Is LK's True Name as a Human the same as it is for LK's True Name after he becomes a Dretch, or LK the Glabrezu? Nope... much the same for Araushnee/Lolth.
-See the above response to Zireael.
Most discussion isn't 100% from the Tome of Magic explanation of True Names, but rather, more of the general Tolkienesque view, where knowing something's True Name gives you power over it.
Wasn't that more the Earthsea theme with the true names of everything (stones, winds, and so on)?
Can't remember that this was so a great deal in LotR too. But it has been a long time since I read Tolkien.-I'll have to get back to you on that one. It was mentioned (and featured, I believe, in the climax of) Ascendancy of the Last.
The temple is not clearly located. But it must be near the site where Geirildin Sethomiir later summoned Wendonai, maybe the court or city of him.. I believe that is the only kind of information about the location of the temple mentioned in the LP Series. It could also not be near Atorrnash, because as far as I remember Atorrnash was destroyed long before the Crown Wars started during the Sundering.
Maybe it was this mage who was worshiped as Araushnee, like Zinzerena was.
Now whether or not Big C was actually able to change her True Name is debatable, but presuming her statements that he was the one who granted the Seldarine their power ultimately (or something to that effect, I don't recall it that well) was true, it would certainly be within Corellon's power to do so.
When it comes down to it though, I'm not sure I'd call the process of altering a True Name (naturally) a change so much as a maturation. As you learn and grow, you become a more complex person, and so your name changes to reflect that... as you grow from a self-absorbed callow youth into a kind and loving adult, your name changes to reflect that. Something as ephemeral as a mood or demeanor (how you portray yourself) isn't going to change it, but when your core nature (how you actually are) is shifted (ie, alignment, every x levels, taking a new class) then it probably would. As to whether being maimed would count, that's debatable I think, though I'd tend towards it not having a significant effect unless it radically altered the way in which you perceive the world.
For example we have LK when he was born as "Lord Karsus"... when he mastered magic it became "Lord Karsus the Archmage"... when he became the greatest of mages it became "Lord Karsus the Archmage of Archmages"... when he became a deity for a few moments it became "Lord Karsus the Archmage of Archmages, the Momentary God"... at its core, its still "Lord Karsus", which would still work on some level, though not nearly as well as the full name... it describes what you are at your core, but not as completely as the full version, if you see my point.
Reading about Araushnee. What a coincidence, well wasn't it Elaine who also gave another explanation for this name? I remember something in one of her newer novels, part of Counselors & Kings. There was something about a mortal mage named Araushnee, who was tortured by some dark faeries. Later she was absorbed by Lolth or something like that. Is there anything more known about this story, does there exist some background where Elaine got the inspiration from?
Maybe it was this mage who was worshiped as Araushnee, like Zinzerena was.
-Keep in mind, these were Halruaans, we are talking about. What they were saying doesn't have to be correct. The information in Evermeet: Island of the Elves is much more accurate, if you consider it was written by Danillo Thann as a treatise on Elven history, after consulting scholars from Elven lands, and Candlekeep, among other places. The Halruaans, well, I don't know where they got their information from. Halruaa has never been very Elven, though. AGHotR (and LEoF) both also give the actual canon date for when Araushnee fell from the Seldarine and became Lolth. This is much more consistent with the version in Evermeet: Island of the Elves.
Faces of Evil laid out a fairly simple formula for True Names, in that there is a base name for every creature out there, and that significant changes will make additions or alterations, usually minor, very, very rarely major, to that name as time goes on. There is further indication that until a fiend knows its True Name, it can't really advance or function to its full abilities since it doesn't understand itself (which further advances the idea of Lolth being at least somewhat disabled if her name changed and she wasn't aware of the new one).
-Interesting. Never read that book.
[Now whether or not Big C was actually able to change her True Name is debatable, but presuming her statements that he was the one who granted the Seldarine their power ultimately (or something to that effect, I don't recall it that well) was true, it would certainly be within Corellon's power to do so.
-Corellon Larethian certainly removed the divinity that he had empowered her with, but anything more is possibility.
For example we have LK when he was born as "Lord Karsus"... when he mastered magic it became "Lord Karsus the Archmage"... when he became the greatest of mages it became "Lord Karsus the Archmage of Archmages"... when he became a deity for a few moments it became "Lord Karsus the Archmage of Archmages, the Momentary God"... at its core, its still "Lord Karsus", which would still work on some level, though not nearly as well as the full name... it describes what you are at your core, but not as completely as the full version, if you see my point.
-LK was a cute baby.
-I hear and understand what you are saying. I guess I have a much more conservative, hard-line stance and opinion on True Names, in that they aren't as morphic as you are describing them as, and change only in extreme circumstances, not as the being in question lives and maturates.
-Keep in mind, these were Halruaans, we are talking about. What they were saying doesn't have to be correct. The information in Evermeet: Island of the Elves is much more accurate, if you consider it was written by Danillo Thann as a treatise on Elven history, after consulting scholars from Elven lands, and Candlekeep, among other places. The Halruaans, well, I don't know where they got their information from. Halruaa has never been very Elven, though. AGHotR (and LEoF) both also give the actual canon date for when Araushnee fell from the Seldarine and became Lolth. This is much more consistent with the version in Evermeet: Island of the Elves.
I thought the same, so it was only a guessing and when I read it in the novel I only wondered where she got this from (because it was Elaine who wrote the older and more "acurate" version in Evermeet long before she gave this other explanation in C&K). But what seems a little bit a point for her new idea is, that it weren't only the Halruaans, who knew these story. It seemed that these Crinti did know it too and they were of drowblood.
Where Halruaans got it from
well that's the question. Maybe back in Nesseril times, they may have known of this ominous and really strong mage. But it could also be, that they got something wrong, that's true. Maybe they mixed some other legends to one. They may have heard from elves about a creature named Araushnee, who was thrown in the abyss and then maybe another story of some dark elf who was thrown to these dark fairies and they made both to one.I thought the same, so it was only a guessing and when I read it in the novel I only wondered where she got this from (because it was Elaine who wrote the older and more "acurate" version in Evermeet long before she gave this other explanation in C&K). But what seems a little bit a point for her new idea is, that it weren't only the Halruaans, who knew these story. It seemed that these Crinti did know it too and they were of drowblood.
-Elaine is good at that, cross-referencing her own stories, and weaving truths, lies, myths, legends, facts, and all of that.
Where Halruaans got it from
-They could have gotten the original stories from anywhere, really.
I wondered about it too. My guess was balor or pit fiend.
Could it be, that Elaine meant a Nycaloth? I mean they have two pairs of arms, bat-like wings, a horned head and a kind of green skin (ok, don't know what Elaine sees as "dull and lifeless color of dessicated wood"). But Nycs aren't demons, right? Were they meant as demons in a previous edition, or is it known if mortals think of them as such? I saw the picture of one in Lost Empires and thought it looked like the descreption of Haeshkarr.
I don't think that she meant a Pit fiend, because that's a baatezu and they would not be so a good ally for a Tanar'ri, like Lolth was at that time.-Yugoloth used to be known as 'Daemons'. I don't know if that's relevant, and I'm not exactly sure what we're debating, but...
About that little question:
Sorry for a little question off topic, but I do not know where to sort it in. In Elaine Cunninghams novel is a servant of Lolth mentioned, the demon Haeshkarr. What I am not sure about, which kind of demon is he? First I thought Glabrezu, but the description in the novel did not match....and rose to a height twice that of an elf. The creature's hornded head had a face that reminded Kethryllia of a slaverin, battle-mad wild boar. Its massive body was shaped like that of an orc, but an extra pair of muscled arms erupted from its hairless torso. Wings like that of a gigantic bat sprung from its shoulders. Except for a pair of burning crimson eyes, the creature was the dull and lifeless color of dessicated wood.
Seems like a kind of hybride between Glabrezu and Balor to me. I first thought it could also be a Nalfeshnee, but they have one pair of arms and small wings.
Drow are still elves, a highly magical race, and thus work better with an affinity to the Weave than the Shadow Weave.
---
So are there any referances to Araushnee's holy symbol?
I don't think I have ever seen a reference to what Araushnee's holy symbol was.
*Goes of searching for his copy*
Hmm. That Spider Queen has an interisting holy symbol: a silvery web on a black diamond...
I might steal that for my Araushnee cleric.
I remember that book had very interesting demi-gods as well.
*Goes of searching for his copy*
Yeah I liked how they had the 8 "claws" of the Spider Queen....they are the demi-gods you are thinking of. The profile though on their Spider Queen feels more complete in its description of "Lolth" and all the sphere of influence she has.
I am glad WOTC got rid of the awful holy symbol of Lolth they had for 3E - it always looked too goofy. I like the new symbol better......odd that it is so close to Corellon's....but then that might have been on purpose....I can see Lolth doing that on purpose.
They changed her webdipping female headed black spider?
Yep it is now a 8 pointed web "star" with gemstone in middle .....very close to Corellon's star symbol.
Star symbol? When did it change from the crescent moon? I don't even remember seeing illustrations of holy symbols...
Corellon's and Lolth's symbol changed as of 4E.
Here is Lolth's new symbol
I actually wanted to see how different is the Spider Queen from her former self ;)
Well, I've heard someone wanted to revert Lloth to Araushnee...
I actually wanted to see how different is the Spider Queen from her former self ;)
Not much, if you take her description in Evermeet, the only ones we have of her. You see, even now, Lolth is not just all about spiders. But tell that to the populace.
Hmmm... I think I prefer the new one to her old one.
Yep her symbol is MUCH better now. :D
BTW, anyone actually willing to play in a Realmsworld of 20,000odd years ago, a world we know next to nothing about?
I'm fishing for details about Araushnee's clergy because I want to include a Web of Fate temple in the Feywild as a place where my PC's get a prophetic message. The guardians for this particular temple would be unaligned or unseelie fey, led by a Le'Shay cleric of Araushnee. The prophecy would involve a plot to reestablish the faith in the Unseelie Court in a remote green elven settlement through deception by granting the green elves the means to stop a mixed dwarven and human settlement from expanding into the greens territory. They would be granted fey-like spiders and ghostly ettercaps as an army to scare away any interlopers.
This would all be in the present times...
But playing during the Dragon Ages some 20.000 years ago? Definately interrested in experiencing that time someday. This age feels EPIC. Bladesingers and Highmages battling dragons singlehandedly, dwarven dragon meets, huge and advanced dragonruled hobgoblin armies, the availability of 12th level spells, humans running around in bearskins... I positively love to see a supplement come available for this.
Indeed true... she's more about Evil Spiders, which is a significant difference. :P :D
There are no "evil" spiders.
Weren't Vhaeraun and Eilistraee the children of Corellon and Araushnee? So shouldn't Araushnee be in the realms before -24,000, since Vhaeraun and Eilistraee were already there?
-No. Eilistraee and Vhaeraun were indeed their children. When a kid moves out, do their parents know where they are, and what they are doing 24/7, though?
Not buying the True Name remaining the same... True Names are supposed to be reflective of the nature of an entity or thing, summing up their entire existence with a single word, or possibly phrase. When she changed from Deity to Demon, the name would change with her, altering itself to reflect her new essence. I could very well be that she didn't know her True Name after the alteration and had to spend time and energy figuring it out again, and that it was during that period of uncertainty over herself and her nature that she was blind to anything invoking her name or an alias. Perhaps she heard them, but until she understood herself again, she couldn't do much about hearing them, even if they may have given her clues as to what her new True Name was. There's plenty of room to maneuver on that issue really, allowing it to make sense within established continuity.
-I don't agree with that. Like I said, when a woman changes her name when married, she still is the same person, right? Likewise, here, with Araushnee/Lolth. I don't think a True Name changes when the person changes. Angry LK's True Name is the same as sad LK's True Name, which is the same as happy LK's True Name, and so on. Grown up LK's True Name is the same as little LK's True Name, even though, being grown up, I am very much a different person than I was when I was a little kid.
...and rose to a height twice that of an elf. The creature's hornded head had a face that reminded Kethryllia of a slaverin, battle-mad wild boar. Its massive body was shaped like that of an orc, but an extra pair of muscled arms erupted from its hairless torso. Wings like that of a gigantic bat sprung from its shoulders. Except for a pair of burning crimson eyes, the creature was the dull and lifeless color of dessicated wood.
Seems like a kind of hybride between Glabrezu and Balor to me. I first thought it could also be a Nalfeshnee, but they have one pair of arms and small wings.
-I don't agree with that. Like I said, when a woman changes her name when married, she still is the same person, right? Likewise, here, with Araushnee/Lolth. I don't think a True Name changes when the person changes. Angry LK's True Name is the same as sad LK's True Name, which is the same as happy LK's True Name, and so on. Grown up LK's True Name is the same as little LK's True Name, even though, being grown up, I am very much a different person than I was when I was a little kid.
Except you're talking about emotional states, rather than a fundamental change in nature. Is LK's True Name as a Human the same as it is for LK's True Name after he becomes a Dretch, or LK the Glabrezu? Nope... much the same for Araushnee/Lolth.
Sorry for a little question off topic, but I do not know where to sort it in. In Elaine Cunninghams novel is a servant of Lolth mentioned, the demon Haeshkarr. What I am not sure about, which kind of demon is he? First I thought Glabrezu, but the description in the novel did not match.
Seems like a kind of hybride between Glabrezu and Balor to me. I first thought it could also be a Nalfeshnee, but they have one pair of arms and small wings.
I wondered about it too. My guess was balor or pit fiend.
Well, I'd think that when one undergoes dramatic changes, he'd change his True Name too. And that's the case with Araushnee/ Lloth.
-Why? I don't think that. Hercules the mortal eventually became Hercules the deity. Same guy. People who win the lotto often go from not having much, to being rich. Same people. Some kid who sees the horrors of war, and his mind snaps, and he goes insane. Same guy. Some person who loses a limb, and as such, their entire demeanor changes (ie, Lieutenant Dan, from Forest Gump)? Same guy, ultimately. Can True Names change? Why, and when? And, what happens to the 'old' True Names? I forget the name of the principle, but the most logical explanation for something is normally the best explanation, barring an actual explanation. The notion that True Names change, all of the above needs to be answered, whereas the notion that they don't doesn't.
Obviously, Araushnee ain't Lolth's "true name".
-Yes, we know this. We don't know her True Name, however.
Haven't dealt much with truenames before, but could have a look at this great Tome of Magic of mine. (I like the shadowcasters and their ilk much more!)
-Most discussion isn't 100% from the Tome of Magic explanation of True Names, but rather, more of the general Tolkienesque view, where knowing something's True Name gives you power over it.
Except you're talking about emotional states, rather than a fundamental change in nature. Is LK's True Name as a Human the same as it is for LK's True Name after he becomes a Dretch, or LK the Glabrezu? Nope... much the same for Araushnee/Lolth.
-See the above response to Zireael.
Most discussion isn't 100% from the Tome of Magic explanation of True Names, but rather, more of the general Tolkienesque view, where knowing something's True Name gives you power over it.
Wasn't that more the Earthsea theme with the true names of everything (stones, winds, and so on)?
Can't remember that this was so a great deal in LotR too. But it has been a long time since I read Tolkien.-I'll have to get back to you on that one. It was mentioned (and featured, I believe, in the climax of) Ascendancy of the Last.
The temple is not clearly located. But it must be near the site where Geirildin Sethomiir later summoned Wendonai, maybe the court or city of him.. I believe that is the only kind of information about the location of the temple mentioned in the LP Series. It could also not be near Atorrnash, because as far as I remember Atorrnash was destroyed long before the Crown Wars started during the Sundering.
Maybe it was this mage who was worshiped as Araushnee, like Zinzerena was.
Now whether or not Big C was actually able to change her True Name is debatable, but presuming her statements that he was the one who granted the Seldarine their power ultimately (or something to that effect, I don't recall it that well) was true, it would certainly be within Corellon's power to do so.
When it comes down to it though, I'm not sure I'd call the process of altering a True Name (naturally) a change so much as a maturation. As you learn and grow, you become a more complex person, and so your name changes to reflect that... as you grow from a self-absorbed callow youth into a kind and loving adult, your name changes to reflect that. Something as ephemeral as a mood or demeanor (how you portray yourself) isn't going to change it, but when your core nature (how you actually are) is shifted (ie, alignment, every x levels, taking a new class) then it probably would. As to whether being maimed would count, that's debatable I think, though I'd tend towards it not having a significant effect unless it radically altered the way in which you perceive the world.
For example we have LK when he was born as "Lord Karsus"... when he mastered magic it became "Lord Karsus the Archmage"... when he became the greatest of mages it became "Lord Karsus the Archmage of Archmages"... when he became a deity for a few moments it became "Lord Karsus the Archmage of Archmages, the Momentary God"... at its core, its still "Lord Karsus", which would still work on some level, though not nearly as well as the full name... it describes what you are at your core, but not as completely as the full version, if you see my point.
Reading about Araushnee. What a coincidence, well wasn't it Elaine who also gave another explanation for this name? I remember something in one of her newer novels, part of Counselors & Kings. There was something about a mortal mage named Araushnee, who was tortured by some dark faeries. Later she was absorbed by Lolth or something like that. Is there anything more known about this story, does there exist some background where Elaine got the inspiration from?
Maybe it was this mage who was worshiped as Araushnee, like Zinzerena was.
-Keep in mind, these were Halruaans, we are talking about. What they were saying doesn't have to be correct. The information in Evermeet: Island of the Elves is much more accurate, if you consider it was written by Danillo Thann as a treatise on Elven history, after consulting scholars from Elven lands, and Candlekeep, among other places. The Halruaans, well, I don't know where they got their information from. Halruaa has never been very Elven, though. AGHotR (and LEoF) both also give the actual canon date for when Araushnee fell from the Seldarine and became Lolth. This is much more consistent with the version in Evermeet: Island of the Elves.
Faces of Evil laid out a fairly simple formula for True Names, in that there is a base name for every creature out there, and that significant changes will make additions or alterations, usually minor, very, very rarely major, to that name as time goes on. There is further indication that until a fiend knows its True Name, it can't really advance or function to its full abilities since it doesn't understand itself (which further advances the idea of Lolth being at least somewhat disabled if her name changed and she wasn't aware of the new one).
-Interesting. Never read that book.
[Now whether or not Big C was actually able to change her True Name is debatable, but presuming her statements that he was the one who granted the Seldarine their power ultimately (or something to that effect, I don't recall it that well) was true, it would certainly be within Corellon's power to do so.
-Corellon Larethian certainly removed the divinity that he had empowered her with, but anything more is possibility.
For example we have LK when he was born as "Lord Karsus"... when he mastered magic it became "Lord Karsus the Archmage"... when he became the greatest of mages it became "Lord Karsus the Archmage of Archmages"... when he became a deity for a few moments it became "Lord Karsus the Archmage of Archmages, the Momentary God"... at its core, its still "Lord Karsus", which would still work on some level, though not nearly as well as the full name... it describes what you are at your core, but not as completely as the full version, if you see my point.
-LK was a cute baby.
-I hear and understand what you are saying. I guess I have a much more conservative, hard-line stance and opinion on True Names, in that they aren't as morphic as you are describing them as, and change only in extreme circumstances, not as the being in question lives and maturates.
-Keep in mind, these were Halruaans, we are talking about. What they were saying doesn't have to be correct. The information in Evermeet: Island of the Elves is much more accurate, if you consider it was written by Danillo Thann as a treatise on Elven history, after consulting scholars from Elven lands, and Candlekeep, among other places. The Halruaans, well, I don't know where they got their information from. Halruaa has never been very Elven, though. AGHotR (and LEoF) both also give the actual canon date for when Araushnee fell from the Seldarine and became Lolth. This is much more consistent with the version in Evermeet: Island of the Elves.
I thought the same, so it was only a guessing and when I read it in the novel I only wondered where she got this from (because it was Elaine who wrote the older and more "acurate" version in Evermeet long before she gave this other explanation in C&K). But what seems a little bit a point for her new idea is, that it weren't only the Halruaans, who knew these story. It seemed that these Crinti did know it too and they were of drowblood.
Where Halruaans got it from
well that's the question. Maybe back in Nesseril times, they may have known of this ominous and really strong mage. But it could also be, that they got something wrong, that's true. Maybe they mixed some other legends to one. They may have heard from elves about a creature named Araushnee, who was thrown in the abyss and then maybe another story of some dark elf who was thrown to these dark fairies and they made both to one.I thought the same, so it was only a guessing and when I read it in the novel I only wondered where she got this from (because it was Elaine who wrote the older and more "acurate" version in Evermeet long before she gave this other explanation in C&K). But what seems a little bit a point for her new idea is, that it weren't only the Halruaans, who knew these story. It seemed that these Crinti did know it too and they were of drowblood.
-Elaine is good at that, cross-referencing her own stories, and weaving truths, lies, myths, legends, facts, and all of that.
Where Halruaans got it from
-They could have gotten the original stories from anywhere, really.
I wondered about it too. My guess was balor or pit fiend.
Could it be, that Elaine meant a Nycaloth? I mean they have two pairs of arms, bat-like wings, a horned head and a kind of green skin (ok, don't know what Elaine sees as "dull and lifeless color of dessicated wood"). But Nycs aren't demons, right? Were they meant as demons in a previous edition, or is it known if mortals think of them as such? I saw the picture of one in Lost Empires and thought it looked like the descreption of Haeshkarr.
I don't think that she meant a Pit fiend, because that's a baatezu and they would not be so a good ally for a Tanar'ri, like Lolth was at that time.-Yugoloth used to be known as 'Daemons'. I don't know if that's relevant, and I'm not exactly sure what we're debating, but...
About that little question:
Sorry for a little question off topic, but I do not know where to sort it in. In Elaine Cunninghams novel is a servant of Lolth mentioned, the demon Haeshkarr. What I am not sure about, which kind of demon is he? First I thought Glabrezu, but the description in the novel did not match....and rose to a height twice that of an elf. The creature's hornded head had a face that reminded Kethryllia of a slaverin, battle-mad wild boar. Its massive body was shaped like that of an orc, but an extra pair of muscled arms erupted from its hairless torso. Wings like that of a gigantic bat sprung from its shoulders. Except for a pair of burning crimson eyes, the creature was the dull and lifeless color of dessicated wood.
Seems like a kind of hybride between Glabrezu and Balor to me. I first thought it could also be a Nalfeshnee, but they have one pair of arms and small wings.