Q.1: How do they get more powerful if they have no such servants?
Q.2: If from what I read about my other topic "Death after the realms" is true, then no one would go to a hell after they die. They either go to a Gods realm they serve, or just nothingness. So it's not like the arch-devils can get more power from some potential souls that enter a hell like area, because acorrding to the people on this forum, there is no such thing when you die.
Q.3: If they are just born powerful, wouldn't "Mags" from the twilight war series be a Demi-God? Since he is half devil? You would think he could give even Elminster a hard time.
Q.4: If Q.4 stays true, what's the purpose of their domain? I know Elminster and Cale went their once, but their circumstances of why they entered there was extreamly rare. So do these Arch-Devils just wait around hoping for someone to accidently enter hell?
Also it says
However, because the Lord of the Ninth is a true god, his worshipers are not necessarily required to conduct vile rituals to channel divine
power.
that's ridiculous
Considering the number of souls, those who have made soul pacts with devils probably go to Hell. There aren't many devilish cults in Faerun, but the Prime Material is infinite, and their cults are present on many other worlds. Bane's probably reserved only for one continent. Also they have nupperibos who are born from Baator and remade into lemures.
There are no rules how much the children of such beings would be powerful. Glasya and Fierana are powerful, Mags seems just a half-fiend, maybe he hasn't developed his true potential yet, maybe that would turn him to evil. Lyachtu Xvim was somewhere in the middle before the ascension, the power was divided among the Bhaalspawn.
Of course they don't wait around waiting for adventurers to kill them (maybe Levistus). They manipulate thousands of events at the same time. Check sources like Dragon 75, 76, 91 (Ed's articles), Faces of Evil: The Fiends, Planes of Law, Hellbound: The Blood War, Fires of Dis, http://www.geocities.com/ripvanwormer/devilkind.html ...
Guide to Hell isn't a Planescape book, fortunately ...
In my cosmology archdevils are more powerful than most gods (and similar planar beings), god is a term that depends on local religion and local manifestation of portfolios, e.g. Baalzephon is the minister of supply in Baator, on the world of Aerdy she is known as Baalzi, the goddess of wealth, in Faerun hardly anyone has heard of her. Tiamat is an ancient baatorian, in Mesopotamia she was a goddess replaced by Marduk, in Unther she has a different history, among dragons also.
Q.1: How do they get more powerful if they have no such servants?
A.1: I really like the way Dicefreak handles the whole "Devils and Demons are no god" thing. To summarize, Devils are in a category called "Cosmic entities" : they embody a part of the reality of the multiverse itself and thus don't take their powers from mortal worshiping. More or less, they are powerful because they represent a concept in the geometry of the multiverse. Thus, even if a devil can take the place of another, the power of a given layer's Arch Devil is relatively stable (to my mind).
Q.2: If from what I read about my other topic "Death after the realms" is true, then no one would go to a hell after they die. They either go to a Gods realm they serve, or just nothingness. So it's not like the arch-devils can get more power from some potential souls that enter a hell like area, because acorrding to the people on this forum, there is no such thing when you die.
A.2: I don't remember where I read that devils are authorized to bargain with souls on the fugue plane itself, to the contrary of demons which have to steal souls.
Q.3: If they are just born powerful, wouldn't "Mags" from the twilight war series be a Demi-God? Since he is half devil? You would think he could give even Elminster a hard time.
A.3: As said in A1, Devils power is given by the position they hold in the hierarchy of Hell, so most of Arch devils children' are just half-devils.
Q.4: If Q.4 stays true, what's the purpose of their domain? I know Elminster and Cale went their once, but their circumstances of why they entered there was extreamly rare. So do these Arch-Devils just wait around hoping for someone to accidently enter hell?
A.4: I think Devils stay in Hell because they don't really have a choice. As paragon of the Lawful Evil part of the multiverse, they are more or less chained to their own plane. It takes a really stupid and powerful wizard to drag them out.
So in a sense they are fallen (arch)angels, servants of the gods and quite a bit lesser in power in their (semi)natural state. Through working with soulstuff the fallen angels empower themselves beyond that level.
There are a number of ways to have spellcasting worshippers of fiend lords, as is the sponsoring by some fiend (of blasphemy (Fiend Folio template) ) or some feat that allows worshippers to access the essence of the Hells or the Abyss and draw "divine" spell from them (Tharll of a Demon, Scion of Sorrow, or Disciple of Darkness - Champions of Ruin, Book of Vile Darkness, et al). First thing I would look for is a list of domains granted by the various fiend lords and only a few (alas, all Archdevils) have been given so far.
A.1: I really like the way Dicefreak handles the whole "Devils and Demons are no god" thing. To summarize, Devils are in a category called "Cosmic entities" : they embody a part of the reality of the multiverse itself and thus don't take their powers from mortal worshiping. More or less, they are powerful because they represent a concept in the geometry of the multiverse. Thus, even if a devil can take the place of another, the power of a given layer's Arch Devil is relatively stable (to my mind).
Actually, Cosmic Entities can get power from mortal worship, though they don't rely on it as deities do.
A.4: I think Devils stay in Hell because they don't really have a choice. As paragon of the Lawful Evil part of the multiverse, they are more or less chained to their own plane. It takes a really stupid and powerful wizard to drag them out.
Exactly:
Locked Within the Gates:
A Lord of the Nine cannot travel into the Prime Material Plane by “traditional means.” Thus, the Lord cannot use nor take advantage of spells like planeshift or gate to travel between the Realities. Only powerful magicks, like circle of the Nine Pits, grants a Lord of the Nine the ability to enter the Prime. Interestingly, if a Lord is given certain magic items, such as an amulet of the planes, by a mortal, he can use it to travel to the mortal coil once a year for up to nine days; while the mortal must be willing, he cannot be a sworn servant or worshipper of the Lord of the Nine.
-You can find out more about the various Archdevils, and how the Nine Hells work, and their layout, in the Planescape book Guide to Hell, and the 3e book Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells.
Check sources like Dragon 75, 76, 91 (Ed's articles), Faces of Evil: The Fiends, Planes of Law, Hellbound: The Blood War, Fires of Dis, http://www.geocities.com/ripvanwormer/devilkind.html ...
There are a number of ways to have spellcasting worshippers of fiend lords, as is the sponsoring by some fiend (of blasphemy (Fiend Folio template) ) or some feat that allows worshippers to access the essence of the Hells or the Abyss and draw "divine" spell from them (Tharll of a Demon, Scion of Sorrow, or Disciple of Darkness - Champions of Ruin, Book of Vile Darkness, et al). First thing I would look for is a list of domains granted by the various fiend lords and only a few (alas, all Archdevils) have been given so far.
....out of the 3 of you I quoted, LK and Zan should know better by now not to offer me DnD stuff. All though I appreciate the reply in an attempt to answer me.
Obviously, it is good to know another of your dozen or so guises. Leira would be oh-so proud.
Oh, rest assured, you are surely not the only one reading this thread and taking note of informed replies. Of course, you are welcome to finally stick your nose into a book that matters.
Obviously, it is good to know another of your dozen or so guises. Leira would be oh-so proud.
I had this one for a while. And who is Leira? Do I know her?
I had this one for a while. And who is Leira? Do I know her?
Leira ... and others can be easily found via google, altavista, wikipedia and the like. It ain't that difficult.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leira_(goddess)
Asmodeus made the multiverse when he tore apart from his twin!
Not exactly.
One sourcebook (Guide to Hell) presented a legend claiming that Asmodeus and the Coatl goddess Jazirian were dualistic representations of primordial Law, and between the two of them they helped solidify the structure of the planes from its earlier incarnation into the present one. They never actually created anything, they just ordered what was there previous to themselves.
However no book since then gave that myth any backing with the exception of a throwaway reference in the BoVD. Previous books make some of that myth impossible, and books like FC:I and FC:II pretty much put it to death insomuch as they respectfully confirm prior notions of the early multiverse and a mythological origin for Asmodeus and the Baatezu that differs from the GtH mythos without running headlong into other myths that have some proof behind them in-game.
Not exactly.
One sourcebook (Guide to Hell) presented a legend claiming that Asmodeus and the Coatl goddess Jazirian were dualistic representations of primordial Law, and between the two of them they helped solidify the structure of the planes from its earlier incarnation into the present one. They never actually created anything, they just ordered what was there previous to themselves.
However no book since then gave that myth any backing with the exception of a throwaway reference in the BoVD. Previous books make some of that myth impossible, and books like FC:I and FC:II pretty much put it to death insomuch as they respectfully confirm prior notions of the early multiverse and a mythological origin for Asmodeus and the Baatezu that differs from the GtH mythos without running headlong into other myths that have some proof behind them in-game.
Plus there being something before Baatezu in Baator...
I always wondered though...what was behind baenloths(sp?) Lolths had a tremendous hand over baatezu and tanar'ri and it seemed the only thing keeping them back was Apomps.
Plus there being something before Baatezu in Baator...
I always wondered though...what was behind baenloths(sp?) Lolths had a tremendous hand over baatezu and tanar'ri and it seemed the only thing keeping them back was Apomps.
Honestly, I think they held themselves back by their very nature. The baernaloths -for all their power and knowledge- probably abandoned the yugoloths and that entire reality except for a few that remained behind, hopelessly mad or consumed by apathy. The members of the Demented, the only active baern outside of Apomps, who knows what they ultimately intend to do with the 'loths? They certainly don't care for them as children, even though the yugoloths have made a racial religion out of it and their "favored" place in the grand scheme of things.
Ultimately the 'loths may fall victim to the same fate as their makers - apathy and gnawing agony turned inwards on themselves. They could rule the universe, if only they cared, if only it had ever mattered, if only they had ever mattered.
*'loth fanboy takes a bat to the 'loths*
