I mean seriously, other than theyre tied in to different planes, whats the difference?
As I asked this on another thread I don't know...but I would like to add a couple of questions...
1)What exactly is a Arcfey?
2)What exactly is a Primal Spirit?
3)I believe I read someplace that that Eldath has become a primal spirit. Who else has been revealed as such? and who has been revealed to be archfeys?
4)Can a cleric serve say a archfey? Or a primal spirit? Etc.?
5)Can a druid serve a god? Like silvanus? Or are they limited to primal spirits only?(This presumes something that might entirely wrong...that primal spirits are the souces of the primal power souce.)
6) Is the presumption above correct? Is the relation between primal spirits the same as the gods and divines. If so do the archfey support a power souce?
I mean seriously, other than theyre tied in to different planes, whats the difference?
As I asked this on another thread I don't know...but I would like to add a couple of questions...
1)What exactly is a Arcfey?
2)What exactly is a Primal Spirit?
3)I believe I read someplace that that Eldath has become a primal spirit. Who else has been revealed as such? and who has been revealed to be archfeys?4)Can a cleric serve say a archfey? Or a primal spirit? Etc.?
5)Can a druid serve a god? Like silvanus? Or are they limited to primal spirits only?(This presumes something that might entirely wrong...that primal spirits are the souces of the primal power souce.)
6) Is the presumption above correct? Is the relation between primal spirits the same as the gods and divines. If so do the archfey support a power souce?
1: I assume its an all powerful fey that's powerful enough to grant spells via pact magic and such. we havent really been told.
2: a primal spirit.... see above.
3: Eldath is the only one I ve seen as an primal, lurue I have seen listed as both, I assume she is a god and someone just made a typo
4: yes
5: yes, I asked Mr. Baker about this some time ago, he said someothing along the lines that they still did.
6:it depends on the deity and the primal spirit.
they archfey support arcane, and likely primal, maybe divine as well.
The Sarifal article by Brian R. James. Dragon 376.
Primal Spirits: Ouroboros the World Serpent, Magrar the Bear, Remnis the Eagle, Quorlinn the Raven, Amark the Wolf, and Nobanion the Lion.
Archfey: Relkath of the Infinite Branches, Larue the Unicorn Queen, Verenestra the Oak Princess, Sarula Iline the Nixie Queen, and Aurilandar the Frost Sprite Queen. (IIRC also known as Auril, the Queen of Air and Darkness)
It also mentions that Eldath is a Lake Spirit.
The Children of the Earth Mother (Primal Spirit) take 3 forms. Leviathan, the Wolf Pack, and the Unicorn. DC 30 Religion check.
Good stuff...
Right, Nobanion, and it stands to reason that all the Beast Lords are Primal Spirits, even though I dont believe theyve officially said that. And really I think Uthgardt (sp?) should of been a Primal Spirit as well, not a god, but I suppose he could be both.
And ive been doin some thinking on this, and I realize theres a major difference between the gods and other cosmicaly powerfull beings, they are not just tied in with a plane, but to their worshipers as well, so really god is more like a sub-group of Archfey, Primal Spirit, etc. Really I think any powerful being could be a god, whether its Archfey, Primordial, or what have you, if they are tied to their worshippers then theyre gods. Like Kossuth is a Primordial, but he does have temples and worshippers, so I would say that he also counts as a god.
Ok so if god is merely a "sub-group" then what are powerful beings of the Astral Sea called that dont have worshippers? Ahhhhh after looking through the Monster Manual I see that theyre labeled as Immortals. So not all Immortals are gods, and not all gods are Immortals. So someone like Primus, The One, remember him? Lord and Master of Nirvana, or Mechanus by 2e standards. I would count Nirvana as a Astral Domain by 4e Standards, so Primus would be an Immortal, He still has god like power, but not an actual god, because hes got no worshippers (at least not that I know of).
And I just realized I left a group off the list, Elder Evils! God-Like beings of the Far Realms.
Ok so to break it down, Each plane has its own God-like beings, gods could be from any one of those catergories, but are tied to their worshippers, that being the key difference I think.
Relkath of the Infinite Branches
Wasn't he supposed to have been subsumed by Rillifane?
Poor Rillifane.
Relkath of the Infinite Branches
Wasn't he supposed to have been subsumed by Rillifane?
Poor Rillifane.
Yes thats true, many (I dont remember how many exactly) of the Seldarine merged with the old Yuir gods, which by 4e standards would be Primal Spirits. So Rillifane is still around, hes just using a different name these days, or the article focused on the Monnshaes didnt it? So thats probably what they call Rillifane there. He might really be Silvanus as well, whos to say? You know how them crazy gods are!
Rillifane and Silvanus aren't even remotely alike, stop smoking crack and for gods' sakes, don't give WotC more stupid ideas for ruining the realms.
The idea that "Rillifane = Silvanus" has already been hinted at, in The Edge of Chaos, Book Three of the Wilds Series. Nothing's flat-out stated, mind you, and even the whispers are of such a thing are kept to a minimum, but there you are.
Then WotC is completely retarded and needs to fall into a hole and die. The 'oh yeah the elven goddesses are really these three barely even similar human goddesses' crap was already stupid, without pulling a 'Yeah these two barely similar elven gods who don't have anything to do with each other are the same' on top of it.
Im not on crack! And im not saying that I think Rillifane and Silvanus should be the same, im just saying that its possible that they will go with that, it does make some sense, both being Nature deities, but by that im not sure why they didnt combine all the nature gods, why is Chauntea and Mielikki still runnin around? It can get confusing if you really think about it, but this is the gods were talking, its not supposed to make sense to us mere mortals.
But on another note, ive been thinking on god like beings of other planes.
Feywild has Archfey
Elemntal Chaos has Primordials
The Far Realms has Elder Evils
I guess the Prime Material has Primal Spirit, or is there a Spirit Plane?
The Astral Sea has god or Immortals
But what about the Shadowfell? What are god like beings from the Shadowfell called? Arch-Shades? Shadow Lords? It seems like every other Plane has an associated god like being, but i dont really see anything for the Shadowfell.
Then WotC is completely retarded and needs to fall into a hole and die. The 'oh yeah the elven goddesses are really these three barely even similar human goddesses' crap was already stupid, without pulling a 'Yeah these two barely similar elven gods who don't have anything to do with each other are the same' on top of it.
Um...these are the same people who mashed together Gruumsh and Talos using the 'logic' of that they both have one eye....and you are surprised by this?
Then WotC is completely retarded and needs to fall into a hole and die. The 'oh yeah the elven goddesses are really these three barely even similar human goddesses' crap was already stupid, without pulling a 'Yeah these two barely similar elven gods who don't have anything to do with each other are the same' on top of it.
Um...these are the same people who mashed together Gruumsh and Talos using the 'logic' of that they both have one eye....and you are surprised by this?
Well I think theres more similarities to them than that, but besides that I think its interesting that they went with Talos is an aspect of Gruumsh, when with all the other gods the human side takes precedence, Hanali is really a human goddess, Sehanine is really a human goddess, but Talos is really an Orc deity? Huh? Thats the part I dont really get.
Then WotC is completely retarded and needs to fall into a hole and die. The 'oh yeah the elven goddesses are really these three barely even similar human goddesses' crap was already stupid, without pulling a 'Yeah these two barely similar elven gods who don't have anything to do with each other are the same' on top of it.
Um...these are the same people who mashed together Gruumsh and Talos using the 'logic' of that they both have one eye....and you are surprised by this?
Well I think theres more similarities to them than that, but besides that I think its interesting that they went with Talos is an aspect of Gruumsh, when with all the other gods the human side takes precedence, Hanali is really a human goddess, Sehanine is really a human goddess, but Talos is really an Orc deity? Huh? Thats the part I dont really get.
Those changes didn't make any sense. Angharradh was always a triune goddess, so all they had to do was say that the Spellplague caused the three to merge into one permanently. Done. The Gruumsh/Talos thing was even weirder, and it was even simpler to solve. Gruumsh and Talos threw down. Gruumsh won. The other Gods of Fury had to choose between serving Gruumsh and finding someone else, and so all three ran to Silvanus for protection (though they don't call it that). Done.
I do like a war between Gruumsh and Talos...
In the 4th edition, it all come down to the Power Source !
Divine powers are granted by Gods who reside in the astral sea.
Primal powers are granted by the primal spirit who reside in the material world.
My conception of the thing is that the gods created the world using stuff from the primordial chaos, and entrusted the keep up of the world to the primal spirits. Did the gods created them not, sure about that...i guess yes.
My problem reside with the powers that changed type in the 4th edition. For exemple, the 4 primordials of the basic elements who were gods in 3rd edition.
If you follow some kind of logic and you want your world to make a bit of sense, you CAN'T have Divine powers from primordial even Neutral ones who haven't fought against the gods.
So the question remains...if a PC wants to serve one of those being, what power source is he using : Arcane -> Warlock ? that is my guess.
My guess is that since all these beings are so powerfull mortals can make pact with them the way warlocks do it. From my point of view clerics and warlocks are very similar. They both serve a powerfull being.
The differece is that clerics draw more power since they sevre (willingly) more powerfull beings, while warlocks draw a small amount of power but they enchance this power to their own innate arcane abilities thus becoming equally powerfull with the clerics.
So clerics can draw power from Primordials, gods and PRIMAL spirits since all these creatures can be compered with each other. Do not forget that according to the new cosmology all these crearures helped in the World's creation and preservation.
Lesser beings like the fallen Karsus from netheril or lesser demons and devils aren't powerfull enought thus they need to make bargains with mortals to take some power (warlock).
p.S:
So we have all these powerfull creatures, right? Why can't a powerfull god or creature just eraze from the reality a mortal enemy like a PC or an entire city?
Even if Ao will punish him/her later. Can they alter the material plane??? What happens if a dozen of them deside that Silverymoon is annoying and summons themselfs to Faerun to turn the city to ashes??
Does Ao has power over primordials??? Can a god become more powerfull than Ao???
What kind of creature is Ao. Just OVERGOD (beyond godlike :P)
I see it as a balance of power, Shars not just going to show up in Faerun and wipe out Silverymoon, because then Torm would show up and wipe out the Shade Enclave. Ao probably has something to do with it to, like banning all these powerful beings from directly interfering with the Mortal PLane, which is why they have to use worshipers and other chosen mortals to further their goal on Toril, The primordials dont seem to give a damn though and I think thats why the gods are worried about them, because they dont follow any sort of divine compact and if they had their way they would bring death and destruction to Toril, except of course for the Elemental Lords who even though they are Primordials have appreantly agreed to work with the gods, and are worshipped much like gods themselves. Im guessing the Primal Spirits play into this as well, acting much like guardians against an invasion of Gods or Primordials or Shadow Lords or what have you.
Well, aren't all these beings as powerfull as the gods themselves???
So clerics can draw power from Primordials, gods and PRIMAL spirits since all these creatures can be compered with each other. Do not forget that according to the new cosmology all these crearures helped in the World's creation and preservation.
I could not go this way personaly.
As for why the gods can't wander around in the material world, i would say it has to do with the astral sea and their realms (and with Ao too, would kick their ass i guess). in my opinion they tied very strongly with their domain in the astral sea and can't easely live the astral sea except by way of an avatar. For those who played in the scarred lands back during 3.5 edition, there is a S&S supplement about the planes that use this kind of argument : "Edges of infonity : the scarred planes".