lireal beanre's story is over, I imagine she died during the plague
and drizzt and the other drow cant say, as that book was writen before they axed eilistraee, and i dont think they shared it with RAS, when he wrote the orc king.
i see know reason why the three drow couldnt be retconed into dark elves though.
the third drow is that one male drow from the 2nd or third house , del' armgo or something was his surename. him, he married a moon elf...
-Anyway...Drizzt, no, he was not transformed. The Orc King prologue/epilogue takes place +/- 100 years after Ascendancy of the Last, and he is a normal ol' Drow. Liriel, we don't know. We probably will never know, either.
18DELTA :D
the third drow is that one male drow from the 2nd or third house , del' armgo or something was his surename. him, he married a moon elf...
When did this hapened?
-GreenKnight, firstly, I want to thank you.
-Anyway...Drizzt, no, he was not transformed. The Orc King prologue/epilogue takes place +/- 100 years after Ascendancy of the Last, and he is a normal ol' Drow. Liriel, we don't know. We probably will never know, either.
We don't know this for certain given RAS wrote this before AotL, and might not have been informed of the changes coming.
We don't know this for certain given RAS wrote this before AotL, and might not have been informed of the changes coming.
That's possible of course, but he does clearly have white hair in the Orc King prologue. I'd imagine that they knew pretty well what they were doing in the teaser, that it'd be something people would point to as a 4E teaser, so it's hard to imagine that this is just an error.
We don't know this for certain given RAS wrote this before AotL, and might not have been informed of the changes coming.
-Doesn't matter. Drow transformed into "Dark Elves" in...What was it? 1377 DR. In 1479 DR, Drizzt Do'Urden is still a Drow, due to his appearance. Thus, he did not transform.
-Hell, the prologue made clear reference to Eilistraee...
-Doesn't matter. Drow transformed into "Dark Elves" in...What was it? 1377 DR. In 1479 DR, Drizzt Do'Urden is still a Drow, due to his appearance. Thus, he did not transform.
-Hell, the prologue made clear reference to Eilistraee...
Yes it does matter, it could easily be added to errata if that was the case. He may have known a change was coming but not the final conclusion, thus his vague reference.
So we don't know for certain until something official comes down the pipe.
Yes it does matter, it could easily be added to errata if that was the case. Hence we don't know for certain until something official comes down the pipe.
-No it doesn't. In 1378 DR, certain Drow were transformed into "Dark Elves". In 1479, Drizzt is a Drow and not a "Dark Elf". Thus, he did not transform in 1378 DR. Continuity problems and retcons need not apply, thank you very much.
-No it doesn't. In 1378 DR, certain Drow were transformed into "Dark Elves". In 1479, Drizzt is a Drow and not a "Dark Elf". Thus, he did not transform in 1378 DR. Continuity problems and retcons need not apply, thank you very much.
As has been said, RAS might not be aware of events in AotL ... and who knows whether the designers are right now. So anyone of them reading along, make sure that there will be a clear distinction between post-1378 D.R. "dark elves" and "drow". (No, I can't see that working, as the drow referred to themselves as "dark elves" themselves for aeons.) Oh what lovely confusion this will result in for years to come ... Leira would be oh so happy.
NB: From what I gather, I for one doubt that EC will write another Liriel novel, at least one based in post-Spellplague time.
The deal is exactly the same as when canon said how Lolth tests drow and turns the failures into driders, thus logically eliminating all possibility of non-psychotic drow ever existing, yet that was simply ignored as convenient.
(In contrast, 4E driderhood is a reward for succeeding a voluntary test, which really makes a helluva lot more sense...)
As has been said, RAS might not be aware of events in AotL ... and who knows whether the designers are right now. So anyone of them reading along, make sure that there will be a clear distinction between post-1378 D.R. "dark elves" and "drow". (No, I can't see that working, as the drow referred to themselves as "dark elves" themselves for aeons.) Oh what lovely confusion this will result in for years to come ... Leira would be oh so happy.
-Just like, ultimately, Obould's state reflect those in the FRCS, as those stats are for Obould in 1372 DR- regardless of anything that happened in the Hunter's Blade Trilogy- so too is Drizzt a Drow, as he is one in 1479 DR, when the "transformation" took place in 1378 DR.
-It's not that hard...You just look at it in an in-game context, not a metagame context. A Metagame context does not matter, whereas the in-game context does.
NB: From what I gather, I for one doubt that EC will write another Liriel novel, at least one based in post-Spellplague time.
-It's probably best if Liriel's fate be contained to the Starlight and Shadows trilogy, and any applicable short stories.
Meh. Some drow reverted back to dark elves as Corellon's curse was lifted from them, others did not.
-Of course, the instances that surrounded it all are canonically impossible. ;)
The deal is exactly the same as when canon said how Lolth tests drow and turns the failures into driders, thus logically eliminating all possibility of non-psychotic drow ever existing, yet that was simply ignored as convenient.
(In contrast, 4E driderhood is a reward for succeeding a voluntary test, which really makes a helluva lot more sense...)
-Nah, that doesn't make too much sense, I don't think. It's a reward to be turned into a debased and rabid monster? I don't know...I don't think so, personally.
-I wonder how Realmslore is going to adapt to this/4e Driders are going to adapt to Realmslore...
(In contrast, 4E driderhood is a reward for succeeding a voluntary test, which really makes a helluva lot more sense...)
Only if you look at the drow from the early Greyhawk point of view, i.e. bloodthirsty, spider-loving and evil monsters. FR had them evolved beyond that long ago. In case of the drider, while usually viewed as outcasts and failures by the average drow, a Selvetarmite in LP I actually stated what was as a reasonable an explanation as you could get - and one I put forward long beforehand: Lolth's dogma proclaims the survival of the fittest, so the race as such survives. If someone failed the Spider Queen (who actually did not test each and every drow), she cast him or her into a form similar to herself (why on earth would she do that?) and the character faces up to a real challenge: Either s/he survives or s/he does not. The ultimate test, though we tend to view it with a bit of apprehension. Obviously, from existing lore we have not heard about one being successful, but the lore is by no means filled out to the last word.
Turning drow into drider for succeeding a voluntary test is turning all the lore upside down ... though they have developed a knack of doing this recently, much to the annoyance of the existing gamers and readers.
Of course, the instances that surrounded it all are canonically impossible.
Oh, it's not like I have a clue about what actually happened to trigger the transformation, I'm just fabricating an explanation that lets me sleep at night. :P
Only if you look at the drow from the early Greyhawk point of view, i.e. bloodthirsty, spider-loving and evil monsters.
Yeah, but Lolthite zealots aren't exactly the brightest bunch. Joe Drow might still view driders as abominations or at least be extremely wary of them, (former) Selvetarmites might draw their own conclusions, but for a crackpot priestess, becoming fused with a giant spider in true image of her deity would only make perfect sense as something to aspire to. Where lore is concerned it's a shift in priorities, hardly a complete overhaul.
Besides, you can always blame the spellplague for it. :D
Oh, it's not like I have a clue about what actually happened to trigger the transformation, I'm just fabricating an explanation that lets me sleep at night. :P
-As long as you can sleep at night...
The beauty and popularity of good drow was a reflection of struggling to belong despite your differences. The Faithful of Eilistraee were the embodiment of triumphing over your own inner struggles and hinderances. Now, that is gone. To put it in a "real world" type example it would be like Christians becoming sin-free and back into God's image with the crucifixion of Christ only to lose their Savior and God. If that were to have happened, where would they have gone? Would they have to now worship Allah, Budda, or some other god? The Drow (well, the faithful who sought redemption) are now free of their curse, but in my opinion, at a terrible price. Now, they have no faith, no goddess, and no destiny or drive. At least while they were drow and worshipped Eilistraee, they had an ambition and a destiny to help other drow into the light as well as fighting their own curse. Not only this, but now the reborn Illithari have nothing that sets them apart or makes them special from other elves except their skin. The Drow had powers and abilities that other elves did not and that made them unique to the People whom they sought to return to. The Eilistraeens were in fact accepted by the People despite the fact that they were drow (except by the Black Archer, but we'll skip that part of the arguement for now). This was extended even to Queen Amlauruil even though it was decreed that no drow would be allowed on Evermeet.
I actually cried while reading the last book and had to force myself to read the last chapter. When finished, I cried some more and felt empty and heartbroken. Eilistraee was my favorite diety of the FR and she provided a good counterpoint to the tyrany of Lolth. The Eilistraeens were a great asset to the People and now, they are "just another elf"
.My only other thought is that I am glad Gary Gynax isn't alive to see what happened to his evergrowing in popularity creation. I would like to remind people that if Mr. Gynax had intended the drow to be all evil servants of the Spider Queen, he would not have created Eilistraee as a counter-part. Yes, he created Eilistraee along with the other dieties of the Dark Seldarine and intended for the drow to be diverse. Now, that is ruined.
As for me and others who play D&D FR, we say .!.. to WotC and we'll have Eilistraee and the others alive and well in our games and hearts. I encourage any one else who love the drow and Eilistraee and what they represented to us as characters in stories and characters we play to join the other like minded people who share this. If it were not for players, D&D would be just a collection of books and dice. We are what makes this game popular and we are the ones that decide the fate of our games. It seems that the only thing forgotten in the Forgotten Realms is that very fact.
Salvatore has a history of ignoring the lore...
-Three editions strong, baby!
-Ugh...Where to begin with that next reply...
- How do you have access to WotC's amateur author contest to compare the work of other entries?
- The Christian G-d is the same entity as Allah.
- We do not know anything about the Dark Elves, and as such, they can still theoretically have Faerie Fire, Darkness, and so on.
- Gary Gygax did not create the Dark Seldarine.
- The Christian G-d is the same entity as Allah.
*ahem*
The Holy Roman Empire was neither holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire. Discuss! :D ;)
as we currently know, they are not.
lireal beanre's story is over, I imagine she died during the plague
That certainly not known to be a fact, though.
Drizzt is "unsaved", and thus is still a drow.
We'll, i'n t'hat ca'se, wh'y n'ot th'row a'pos'tro'ph'e's i'n'to ev'eryt'hin'g? :P
AnD raNdoM cApiTal LetTerS, tOo.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I was compleately shocked and appauled by the Lady Penitant trilogy.
A lot of posters here felt the same thing. See the very recent thread with the name of the novel in its title.
Yes it does matter, it could easily be added to errata if that was the case. He may have known a change was coming but not the final conclusion, thus his vague reference.
But if Drizzt is no longer a drow, then people won't be able to wax poetic about his snowy hair, lavender "orbs", and jet black skin anymore. No one would stand for that!
NB: From what I gather, I for one doubt that EC will write another Liriel novel, at least one based in post-Spellplague time.
Yes, I'm pretty sure the Liriel story in Realms of War was supposed to be the character's swansong.
I have had a problem with the writing department of WotC ever since they chose Richard Hammilton as the winner of the Maiden of Pain writing contest and published his story despite the fact that it was poorly written compaired to other entries and broke the contest rules.
Kameron Franklin was the author of Maiden of Pain. How did the book break the contest rules?
AnD raNdoM cApiTal LetTerS, tOo.
N'o'W y'O'uRe' J'Ust b'EiN'g Sn'iD'E. :P
I don't know about the rest of you, but I was compleately shocked and appauled by the Lady Penitant trilogy. I have had a problem with the writing department of WotC ever since they chose Richard Hammilton as the winner of the Maiden of Pain writing contest and published his story despite the fact that it was poorly written compaired to other entries and broke the contest rules. This is in no way to show any displeasure for Lisa Smedman because, despite my anger about the books, she is a great writer and I enjoy reading her works. My problem is that I do not see this as a "happy ending" or an "answer to the Faithful's prayers".
I agree fully with your insightful summation of the intent, clearly you are right, the intent is to return to the "See Black and Kill" automatic bad guy days. However it is clear from the mythology that Elisstree was never truly exiled. She went along to bring back as many as she could. The fact that her father (Corellon) took over her portfolio and that of her brother to bring the new dark elves under the elven pantheon does not limit them, in fact they are welcome to any of the gods in the group...I think the Drow now are much more limited without the choice of the Masked Lord and the Lady, I never liked the Matriarchy of Elisstree, it struck me as being a bit unfair(too males), I liked it when she became androgynous and more neutral, she had real potential then as an alternative to Lolth. Now for the Drow their is Lolth and the rest turned to dark elves have a choice, the only problem is that if you suddenly turned into a dark elf in a Drow city it would take a miracle to not end up on a altar with a knife in your heart. So the situation is simple now, which is why I expect that Drizzt may get too change, pretty soon the elves will adopt a see black and kill policy again...
One thing that might be an issue is that the two in question are aligned with non elven goddesses, Melikki and Mystra so they stand under the protection of those two, they may get the 'option' to change...
As for the future glimpse in the Orc King, I found it to be speculative at best, so much cannon has changed lately, from the death of the Blackstaff to this event with one of the seven sisters and four Drow gods wiped out and Lolth out of the Abyss. I cannot think that Salvatore thought he knew where things were going. I do understand the Orc King, there is no reason, given the levels for orcs and all the prestige classes available to think they could not carve out a decent sized kingdom.
I do appreciate all the feedback...
*ahem*
The Holy Roman Empire was neither holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire. Discuss! :D ;)
-I didn't say it was.
AnD raNdoM cApiTal LetTerS, tOo.
-That looks good, actually.
-GK, your picture was removed, by the way.
Kameron Franklin was the author of Maiden of Pain.
-Pshh...I didn't even catch that. Thank you.
-GK, your picture was removed, by the way.
Yeah, I know. Got PMed by a WizO. I wonder who dimed me out...
"Corellon, why hast though forsaken me?"
In the new alignment system, the 'gooder' you are. the lighter you skin color. :P
Maybe in 4e, Drizzt finally takes a bath and finds out he was a kidnapped Moon Elf all along.
-No it doesn't. In 1378 DR, certain Drow were transformed into "Dark Elves". In 1479, Drizzt is a Drow and not a "Dark Elf". Thus, he did not transform in 1378 DR. Continuity problems and retcons need not apply, thank you very much.
Perfectly valid that it could be a continuity error. It might not be also. But way to be an *** about it.
Yes, I'm pretty sure the Liriel story in Realms of War was supposed to be the character's swansong.
I did a revision for that book and am pretty sure that Liriel did not feature in there. Lovely wicked Ferret and Elaith did though.
N'o'W y'O'uRe' J'Ust b'EiN'g Sn'iD'E. :P
...sorry got dizzy
I did a revision for that book and am pretty sure that Liriel did not feature in there. Lovely wicked Ferret and Elaith did though.
Oh, wait! I meant the Best of the Realms anthology for Elaine Cunningham. Sorry for the confusion.
-Pshh...I didn't even catch that. Thank you.
You're welcome.
Yeah, I know. Got PMed by a WizO. I wonder who dimed me out...
-Don't know. I know that whenever I see a WizO in the Forgotten Realms section (in the member list at the bottom), I'm always like, "Oh! Someone's getting burned!", and then I check to see what thread the WizO is active in.
In the new alignment system, the 'gooder' you are. the lighter you skin color. :P
-That has kinda always been the way things work. The holy, celestial creatures were blindingly white...
Perfectly valid that it could be a continuity error. It might not be also. But way to be an *** about it.
-Continuity errors are never valid. They cannot be explained. Same thing with "hidden" retcons.
-I also believe you failed to include an important letter in that three letter curse, there. It's not ass, because it isn't filtered, so...
the third drow is that one male drow from the 2nd or third house , del' armgo or something was his surename. him, he married a moon elf...[/u]
I believe his name was Tos'un or something close to that
I believe his name was Tos'un or something close to that
Yes, and still nobody told me when he married a Moon Elf.
-That has kinda always been the way things work. The holy, celestial creatures were blindingly white...
Some were pretty hood.
-That has kinda always been the way things work. The holy, celestial creatures were blindingly white...
Yeah, I love proving my players this concept is terribly, horribly wrong...
by letting great evil hide behind or inside those lights
Some were pretty hood.
-Whoa, look at him...
QUOTED from [U]sfdragon
the third drow is that one male drow from the 2nd or third house , del' armgo or something was his surename. him, he married a moon elf...[/u]
I believe his name was Tos'un or something close to that
Ach well, don't matter much longer as most priestesses will have their males explode into spiders in 4E from now on ...
Ach well, don't matter much longer as most priestesses will have their males explode into spiders in 4E from now on ...
-Yeah, think about that for a second. Everyone will be trying to become Driders. The Drow race will soon face extinction!
Surely driders can mate too. Maybe drider babies are always drow babies.
-How would that work? Drow babies are born in egg sacks?
In this case, 2 points: the alignment system and the proliferation of random elf subraces.
The old alignment was deemed too inflexible to handle certain characters, which only mattered to people who cared way too much about that sort of thing anyways. For everyone else, they were just a guideline. But the primary reason of getting rid of it was to avoid the "always chaotic evil" trope of characters: orcs, goblins, and yes, drow.
So, you have all of the "good", or at least "non-evil" drow become dark elves. TThis will leave all of the existing drow, you guessed it, chaotic evil, or something akin to that. Not to mention the fact that it completely messes up any non-evil drow in the underdark. Think about it, you are secretly good and wake up one day looking more like an elf than a drow. That's just asking for a witch burning.
The second is the proliferation of elven races. While elves are generally liked, there were a LOT of them in 3e. One of wotc's goals was to cut down on the number of elves subraces. However, there are actually more playable elves in 4e than 3e, and now there's yet ANOTHER new elven subrace.
Way to go Wotc!
-How would that work? Drow babies are born in egg sacks?
Yeah. Pretty nasty, but in a totally cool way.
Yeah. Pretty nasty, but in a totally cool way.
-Would that be better or worse than..."birth fluid"? I don't recall the name at this moment.
As for the new fourth edition I am wondering why Wizards of the Coast did not do what the old TSR did, run two sets of rules and call them by different names (Basic Set D&D, including companion, expert and Immortals, and Advanced D&D) It seems clear that the new game is different enough to actually be a separate system, there is a continuity break and style change, it seems the hardest thing to swallow is the scrapping of hundreds of thousands of man hours in creative development with the tools in of third edition. I love my books, MM I - VI and all the core and on and on, I will never give up playing a game I have $700.00 in books describing and filling out the worlds plus who knows how many hours in play and character development. Not to mention hundreds of FR paperbacks that are based on those rules. The reality is that I do not even want to look at forth edition lest it corrupt my game play. Give it a different name and market it as a fusion of a new computer based generator and pen and paper...Call it Downloads and Dragons or some such...I will be content to trade in the 3-3.5 books forever, I still have my Role Master and MERP stuff (far superior to the stuff from Tolkien Corp under the "Lord of the Rings" system) I will be fine with the 3.5 forever...
It seems to me that driders are all male, I could be wrong but that would prevent mating.
Maybe all driders are gay then? They can mate but wouldn't produce any offspring. But with spells... Yeah, that's probably how they do it. All driders are male and gay and have baby drow that burst free from egg sacks thanks to spells.
Maybe all driders are gay then? They can mate but wouldn't produce any offspring. But with spells... Yeah, that's probably how they do it. All driders are male and gay and have baby drow that burst free from egg sacks thanks to spells.
-I won't get into the details, but there was a big "fight" here long ago concerning how "natural" it would be if a male polymorphed into a female, and then mated, conceiving a child in the process. Yeah...
-I won't get into the details, but there was a big "fight" here long ago concerning how "natural" it would be if a male polymorphed into a female, and then mated, conceiving a child in the process. Yeah...
Hey, bro. Of course it's natural. Sometimes you just gotta take one for the team! ;)
Btw, isn't the Drider in the 4e MM female?
Would that be better or worse than..."birth fluid"? I don't recall the name at this moment.
Amniotic fluidThe amnion grows and begins to fill, mainly with water, around two weeks after fertilization. After a further 10 weeks the liquid contains proteins, carbohydrates, lipids and phospholipids, urea and electrolytes, all which aid in the growth of the fetus. In the late stages of gestation much of the amniotic fluid consists of fetal urine.
Source: Wikipedia
So... yeah... egg sacs aren't really any worse.
.I doubt that drow are born in egg satchels from now on, for we'd have to rewrite the first Drizzt novel and I doubt WotC will do that. :D
-Thank you.
Driders cannot reproduce, at least until this is retconned in D&D 4 bEginners .
-Clever.
D&D 4 bEginners
-Clever.
You see, I have my moments.
-Whoa, look at him...
I like his cornrows!:D
Hey, bro. Of course it's natural. Sometimes you just gotta take one for the team! ;)
Btw, isn't the Drider in the 4e MM female?
I think so, and even besides that I'm pretty sure driders can be male and female.
Driders cannot reproduce, at least until this is retconned in D&D 4 bEginners
Evil.;) I now have the books and I rather like the new rules.
You see, I have my moments.
-Every so often. :P
Evil.;) I now have the books and I rather like the new rules.
Rest assured that I won't term you a beginner! I saw the rules, the exploding drow and artillery stuff ... and decided that this ain't for me. If I want to play D&D, I'll play D&D. If I want to play something Warhammerish, easy and fast-forward H&S, I'll may consider 4E. And that's not just because they raped the setting for the system's sake. I simply don't like it.
Rest assured that I won't term you a beginner! I saw the rules, the exploding drow and artillery stuff ... and decided that this ain't for me. If I want to play D&D, I'll play D&D. If I want to play something Warhammerish, easy and fast-forward H&S, I'll may consider 4E. And that's not just because they raped the setting for the system's sake. I simply don't like it.
Hey it's all good.
I took what you said as a joke (and a pretty funny one at that), not an insult.Hey it's all good.
No harm done. Wasn't "aiming" it at you, just telling my opinion.
Don't much care for 4e's class system either. Feels too much like the old 2e single/dual class stuff for humans for my tastes. I know it doesn't really work that way mechanically, but it still feels like a step back to me for some reason. I think my biggest gripe is being somewhat locked into a particular role for a given class, rather than a role I choose for myself. Certainly certain classes were fairly pigeonholed in a lot of respects, but even the illusion of that freedom was good enough for me most of the time.
Well, as power sources get filled out more do you think that will alleviate some of the pigeonholed feeling? For example, once there's a class for all four divine roles won't we essentially have at least 4 alternatives on which to base a "priest" character? Or does that not quite address the issue?
:eyes thread topic: Ummm...and to add to those questions..... :P Does Grand Tour of the Realms tell us anything about Liriel?
WoD really caught my attention with the introduction of things like merits and flaws, a lot of which I liked even if they weren't of much mechanical help, and it just blew 2e out of the water for me since it let me define my character in ways AD&D just never let me. 3e's multiclassing and PrCs gave me a lot of flexibility, and feats could be modified and cooked up to get back that character fleshing aspect Merits and Flaws could give. To me it was a way of expressing that people can change their mind and their focus at will... or decide that they need some versatility and branch out a bit. While I still think a level-based system isn't the best solution for that, 3e was about as good as things have gotten to expressing that, at least that I've seen. 4e just doesn't give me that freedom to experiment with one "profession", decide I don't like it much, and move on to another, which I think really limits the players options for character growth and development. Multiclassing seems like it works pretty well with the feat-based version, but what do you tell someone who decides at 5th level that they're bored with being the squishy wizard (or whatever), and takes up a dagger and lockpick set instead, without abandoning their early magic? The person with that character concept is pretty much screwed out of the gate with 4e, at least as far as I can tell.
Well, as power sources get filled out more do you think that will alleviate some of the pigeonholed feeling? For example, once there's a class for all four divine roles won't we essentially have at least 4 alternatives on which to base a "priest" character? Or does that not quite address the issue?
:eyes thread topic: Ummm...and to add to those questions..... :P Does Grand Tour of the Realms tell us anything about Liriel?
No it does not and if I remember her comments correctly, EC has no clue whether the Wizards will take any of her "old" plotlines and characters up in the future either.
As for the classes ... we all know the stuff (usually spouted by fighter-type players) that certain classes lack "power" at later stages. More often than not, these moaners forget that for long spells of the group's life, they were running the show because the mages could barely do more than light candlesticks and any healer was needed for healing.
And, IMHO, whatever they do to these new classes, people will always look at "what the other player's character can do that I can't do better" and start optimizing their own charas. As combat-streamlined as D&D has become, this is more likely than ever. Obviously, you'd hope that players don't go ballistic and show some common sense, but if we then remind ourselves that 4E is aimed at WoW-folk and videogamers, beginners and young players, how likely is it to find anti-individualistic common sense in amongst those?
As for the classes ... we all know the stuff (usually spouted by fighter-type players) that certain classes lack "power" at later stages. More often than not, these moaners forget that for long spells of the group's life, they were running the show because the mages could barely do more than light candlesticks and any healer was needed for healing.
Both cases were a problem with game design. No class should suck for stretches of the campaign. Wizards should be useful all the time, from levels 1-30, and Fighters should be useful all the time, from levels 1-30.
WoD really caught my attention with the introduction of things like merits and flaws, a lot of which I liked even if they weren't of much mechanical help, and it just blew 2e out of the water for me since it let me define my character in ways AD&D just never let me. 3e's multiclassing and PrCs gave me a lot of flexibility, and feats could be modified and cooked up to get back that character fleshing aspect Merits and Flaws could give.
Ah, the memories of the elegance of creating a WoD character. Still love that system. I was fond of the Resources merit, or Influence. Buying you're self certain story advantages in a surprisingly balanced way. Few of D&D's feats can be used in that way (they dont scale or are not story oriented) as 3e is still mostly about combat.
Oh and about driders being a blessing for matrons now. It could be the latest fashion... and fade away just as fast. I could spin a ice story how such a custom became prominent in a certain drow city... but to change it in Menzo would grate continuity too much.
Obviously, you'd hope that players don't go ballistic and show some common sense, but if we then remind ourselves that 4E is aimed at WoW-folk and videogamers, beginners and young players, how likely is it to find anti-individualistic common sense in amongst those?
I have to say that I disagree with this statement. I've played D&D for 13 years, starting with 2E. I'm 24 years old (so yes, like most I started young) now and while I don't consider myself "old", I'm certainly not "young" either, at least not in the sense that you are implying. I've played *a lot* of videogames and WoW, but I also started playing MMOs long before WoW was even a concept. My first MMO was the Gold Box Neverwinter Nights back on AOL.
So I'm not a beginner, not young, and while I am a video gamer and a WoW player, I've played MMOs much longer than WoW has been around and I *love* playing 4th Edition. I've just started a campaign and my longtime players agree with me. I doubt I'm the only one who has this sort of background and likes 4th Edition, which implies to me that their target audience isn't just the young, inexperienced, WoW crowd.
Just my 2 cp on the matter.
You have a few thousand (give or take) Miyeritari (or however you spell it) living in the Underdark, they are now ******, they have no dark-vision, and will most likely be obliterated by Lolth's priestesses.
i looked at a 4e PHB the other day.... WHY!!!!!
Both cases were a problem with game design. No class should suck for stretches of the campaign. Wizards should be useful all the time, from levels 1-30, and Fighters should be useful all the time, from levels 1-30.
actually... i disagree with you, i very much like in 3.5 the building that a wizard can do, start with small simple magic and move to more advanced badass stuff. it gave at least for me a sense of growing in power (albeit a sharp one)
one thing i have to say is that i think 4e is more for fanboyism and videogamer/WOW people.
The only thing I don't like about the change is the color they changed them into. They just basically got rid of Wild Elves and gave their look to Dark Elves. They should have them look more blue or purple (smurfs) lol.
They are basically changing history here again the Wild and green elves was the original elves on Toril then came the rest. So now with all the changes we go from about 6+ types of elves down to 3.
That is what I don't like about 4ED they are watering down everything. Can't have the Extra gods or many races because they want to keep it simple for their programmers LOL.
That was the reason they went over board with clerics in 3.0 and 3.5 was becasue they was not so hot in 2.0. But they could have kept the god diversity and just made a cleric have to have a power or powers that thier god's use while keeping them to the same amount of powers as other classes in 4.0.
I have to say that I disagree with this statement. I've played D&D for 13 years, starting with 2E. I'm 24 years old (so yes, like most I started young) now and while I don't consider myself "old", I'm certainly not "young" either, at least not in the sense that you are implying. I've played *a lot* of videogames and WoW, but I also started playing MMOs long before WoW was even a concept. My first MMO was the Gold Box Neverwinter Nights back on AOL.
So I'm not a beginner, not young, and while I am a video gamer and a WoW player, I've played MMOs much longer than WoW has been around and I *love* playing 4th Edition. I've just started a campaign and my longtime players agree with me. I doubt I'm the only one who has this sort of background and likes 4th Edition, which implies to me that their target audience isn't just the young, inexperienced, WoW crowd.
Just my 2 cp on the matter.
Feh, barely out of diapers you are... Youngin's thinkin' they have some life behind them when they're barely old enough to shave. Silly youngin's... ;) :D
actually... i disagree with you, i very much like in 3.5 the building that a wizard can do, start with small simple magic and move to more advanced badass stuff. it gave at least for me a sense of growing in power (albeit a sharp one)
You can have growing power without making a class near useless at one point of the game and overpowered at another point of the game.
one thing i have to say is that i think 4e is more for fanboyism and videogamer/WOW people.
I like 4E and I rarely play video games and can't stand playing WoW.
You can have growing power without making a class near useless at one point of the game and overpowered at another point of the game.
I like 4E and I rarely play video games and can't stand playing WoW.
im not saying its impossible to like, but from the little i've seen and heard about it, i really cant stand some of the changes they've made.
about wizards and caster, yes i must agree especially clerics i've noticed are VERY useless at lowerlevels, and when i did DESTROY half my party as a lvl 30 Lich... sure i'll admit it could use some balancing. havent seen what the've done to this is 4E though, could someone enlighten please?
The only thing I don't like about the change is the color they changed them into. They just basically got rid of Wild Elves and gave their look to Dark Elves. They should have them look more blue or purple (smurfs) lol.
-Canonically speaking, Dark Elves are Wild Elves. AGHotR retcons this, though this is one of those things I do not accept.
-And, "Wild Elves" are still around.
They are basically changing history here again the Wild and green elves was the original elves on Toril then came the rest. So now with all the changes we go from about 6+ types of elves down to 3.
-This was always the case, since Evermeet: Island of the Elves. The Green Elves and the Dark Elves (who have been retconned into a subset of the first group) came to Realmspace from Faerie circa -28,000 DR. The Sun and Moon Elves arrived from Faerie circa -24,000 DR.
It was when the Selvetarm champion went to talk to the driders and a female one was in charge of them- surprise surprise.
-Without looking back on the book, I am going to have to say that you are incorrect. The Selvetarglin (Sp?) were composed of Drow males, and Aranea.
Wasn't it when, I forget his name, went to see the driders and he gave them an offer to redeem themselves. He killed one that attacked him then a female one stepped forward?
-Like I said, I don't remember off hand, but the only females I seem to remember were the Aranea, and the dead Lolthite priestess'.
Selvetarm's clergy was to a large extend composed of drow males (70%), some were drow females (8%), some were male aranea (15%) and some female aranea (bookshelf's too far away to read it from here). His "specialty priests, a.k.a. Spiderswords were solely made up from drow or aranea, though it is implied that most of these aranea were actually living in the Spider Swamps (I seem to remember).
The Spidersword we are talking of was running about in LP I and told that drider nest about the why's of their transformation, a very clever tactic. Of course, you have to take into consideration that these Selvetargtlin were actually betraying their Lolthite "superiors" in an attempt to seperate his faith from Lolth (they slew a priestess within their compound).
He said, essentially, that Lolth cast these "failures" into drider form (an actual likeness of one Lolth's appearances) to prove to her that they are worthy drow nonetheless. You do see that in earlier books and MMs too, since Lolth still does grant spells to these former drow priestesses. Obviously, so far, no sourcebook ever told us of a successful re-transformation, but that by itself does not mean there weren't any.
Coming back to the drow females, do keep in mind that apart from a handful of elite male fighters (those weapon masters), we do know that elite fighters were and are quite often females too, e.g. House Baenre features an elite fighter's cohort (325 in strength) composed solely of drow females of level 6 and above.
How far's the bookshelf away?
-Two flights of stairs, neither which I was interested in climbing. That said, with all of that, the issue wasn't resolved.
-Two flights of stairs, neither which I was interested in climbing. That said, with all of that, the issue wasn't resolved.
My answer was, of course, as much as the sources will tell you. No need looking to finalize a puzzle which was not complete in the first place.
My answer was, of course, as much as the sources will tell you. No need looking to finalize a puzzle which was not complete in the first place.
-But, the question was whether or not there were female Driders in that novel...
-But, the question was whether or not there were female Driders in that novel...
Well ... there were both male and female driders and the leaderess was - of course - a female. While driders are by default (and on purpose) genderless, they are still of the same "gender" as the drow were pre-transformation.
On a sidenote, how did the NYPD exam go?
Well ... there were both male and female driders and the leaderess was - of course - a female. While driders are by default (and on purpose) genderless, they are still of the same "gender" as the drow were pre-transformation.
-Excellent point, that. Driders might hve genders, but not necessarily sexes.
On a sidenote, how did the NYPD exam go?
-Exceptionally well, thank you for asking.
In Ascendancy of the Last, Qarlynd(sp?) attempts to highlight his apprentice with Faerie fire post transformation and fails. The entire ritual was designed to remove the Faezress from them, so it just makes sense that they would no longer have the faerie fire (what they deemed to be innate faezress). Probably lose their spell Resistance, darkness, and everything cool about drow.
On the plus side, The Dark Seldarine is gone! :D
My man Oozy Mc'Oozington still haunts the depths! :D
And the Promenade is back to what it should be, a center for ooze control!
(...)
My man Oozy Mc'Oozington still haunts the depths! :D
LOL... Oozy McOozington... :D
.. all drow being part divine/demon.
Yes over the years the dark elves nobles and theocracy have intermingled with quite some deviant demons and who eventually got outcompeted by Lolth and some help from Wendonai. But that could not encompass all dark elves on Aber-Toril, of which quite a few where just bandits or hunters, followers of Vhearun or Eilistraee. These links of the bloodline just got cursed aswell turing them to the famous drow. I believe the Sundering caused the numbers of the non Lolthite darkelves to be decimated, so they had to eventually get absorbed into the Lolth based underdark cities. But right after the the Descent it was also likely that the more northern based Vhearunites and followers of the Seldarine and Eilistraee fled into the local underdark regions without meeting their southern cousins for millenia...
On the plus side, The Dark Seldarine is gone! :D
My man Oozy Mc'Oozington still haunts the depths! :D
And the Promenade is back to what it should be, a center for ooze control!
-Was the maze the avatar was sent into on the Material Plane?
Ka'narlist. Yes. He might still be living, perhaps with his soul scattered in some of those sea elf pearls of his. A real nice guy that.
-Indeed. He was a Lolthite upon his "death", and Lolth made specific mention that she did not find his soul in her domain, which demonstrates that he is not dead, and is out there. Somewhere...
-Indeed. He was a Lolthite upon his "death", and Lolth made specific mention that she did not find his soul in her domain, which demonstrates that he is not dead, and is out there. Somewhere...
Is that so? I have a clear memory of reading* about Lolth being "saddened" by the loss of him during the Sundering, which removed his city from the landscape. Haven't read anything about him after that. He's defo an Ilythiiri and evil to the core, but in any case a (statwise) "normal dark elf" of old.
*Evermeet novel by EC
-Was the maze the avatar was sent into on the Material Plane?
Not sure off the top of my head. I'll check the Undermountain box set when I get my old hard drive hooked up again. If its not in there, it -might- be in the new expedition to Undermountain (though it does not really detail the Promenade/Pit). I'd like to think that it was, and that Halaster created/haunted it for a time. If anyone could solve it, it would have been the Mad Mage, really. Might be some sort of permanent Maze spell that has no ending...
Is that so? I have a clear memory of reading* about Lolth being "saddened" by the loss of him during the Sundering, which removed his city from the landscape. Haven't read anything about him after that. He's defo an Ilythiiri and evil to the core, but in any case a (statwise) "normal dark elf" of old.
*Evermeet novel by EC
-Read the novel again, then. Page 174. Not only is Lolth not saddened by his loss, because she was tired of him, but she also makes specific mention that she does not know what becomes of his sou, and that bothered herl. Being a Lolthite, his soul would have gone to the Demonweb Pits upon his death. But, it didn't, meaning that his soul did not leave the Material Plane, meaning that he either did not die, or resorted to something (Undeath) to prolong his life. I currently have him "statted" as a Drow Lich.
P.S. probably dozens of spelling mistakes above. Please disregard.
At the end of Blackstaff, sharn decented from ssri'tel'quessir did not transform back because that would change them into drow.
-Blackstaff took place in 1374 DR, and Ascension of the Last took place in 1378 DR.
All those sharn undeniably belong to untainted Miyeritari lines. What happens to them?
-Presumably, if they now wanted to transform back into Elven forms, they could.
-Read the novel again, then. Page 174.
Nay, I only re-read pages 173f.. And as I said, she was "saddened by his loss", just not because of him. ;)
Not only is Lolth not saddened by his loss, because she was tired of him, but she also makes specific mention that she does not know what becomes of his sou, and that bothered herl. Being a Lolthite, his soul would have gone to the Demonweb Pits upon his death. But, it didn't, meaning that his soul did not leave the Material Plane, meaning that he either did not die, or resorted to something (Undeath) to prolong his life. I currently have him "statted" as a Drow Lich.
Essentially, all the text says is that she was not certain of the chap's final fate. His life essence could have been captured in one of these pearls, though it could have been destroyed by other means too or, as you intimated, he could have ended up as an undead.* Of course, if he was still about (at the time) and a Lolthite, she would know. Thus, he might as well taken up another patron and perished later on or during the Sundering. Lots of ifs and buts and you may find an enhanced version of this "sea pearl magic soul essence stuff" in the kiira that appear in the LP series. Though only Lisa can answer that.
*Unlikely though, as he would be some 19,000 years old (even for an undead, that's a long time) and we would have heard of this chap too. You see, he was probably a Szazz Tam or Srinshee (powerwise) of his era and the way he was presented hardly content sitting idly about for 190 centuries.
In any case, if he was an undead, he would most likely not have been transformed.
Nay, I only re-read pages 173f.. And as I said, she was "saddened by his loss", just not because of him. ;)
...and the wonderful city of Atorrnash reduced to legend. Lloth did not mourn the loss of her consort...She did not regret the loss of Ka'Narlists's person, though she rued the loss of that wonderous vest of Sea Elven magic. There was the possibilityt hat Ka'Narlish had managed to capture his own essence in one of his dark pearls. Lloth did not like the idea that the final fate of the malevolent, ambitious entity was not altogether certain.
Of course, if he was still about (at the time) and a Lolthite, she would know. Thus, he might as well taken up another patron and perished later on or during the Sundering.
-Of course, but there are no indications that he did this. He could not have been a Vhaeraunite, or an Eilistraeean, so they are out. He betrayed Ghaunadaur, so I don't believe the Elder Eye would have accepted him back. Lolth mentioned that he was still his consort upon his "death", indicating that he still was a Lolthite.
*Unlikely though, as he would be some 19,000 years old (even for an undead, that's a long time) and we would have heard of this chap too. You see, he was probably a Szazz Tam or Srinshee (powerwise) of his era and the way he was presented hardly content sitting idly about for 190 centuries.
In any case, if he was an undead, he would most likely not have been transformed.
-And, they said Senator Palpatine could not have been a plotting, evil Sith Lord, either. ;)
-I see nothing wrong with an entity like Ka'Narlist being some kind of dark shadow manipulating events to his liking in the background...
Drizzt not changing: Thinking back to his use of the mask to hide his identity (in the earlier novels, as he travelled down the sword coast) - in the end, he accepted his features as they were, and refused to use the mask again. Maybe it was his free will and acceptance (even a small amount of pride) of his physical appearance that allowed him to "make the choice" of keeping "who he was". All conjecture really. Might have been miscommunication. I prefer the first reasoning though.
Then one has to wonder if the same thing happened to other drow who were about to be changed. One has to ask, "Why only Drizzt?"
Then one has to wonder if the same thing happened to other drow who were about to be changed. One has to ask, "Why only Drizzt?"
-He's...special.
All those sharn undeniably belong to untainted Miyeritari lines. What happens to them?
-Presumably, if they now wanted to transform back into Elven forms, they could.
I had the same thought. If we're very, very good boys and girls, the forthcoming Blackstaff Tower will shed a little light on the Miyetieri sharn and the new dark elves in the City of Hope.
We DO know, BTW, that Selzdar was in contact with the sharn; they "promised" him the dark elves would be welcome in the City of Hope.
I had the same thought. If we're very, very good boys and girls, the forthcoming Blackstaff Tower will shed a little light on the Miyetieri sharn and the new dark elves in the City of Hope.
-I'm not sure about that. Has Steve said anything about Dark Elves, specifically? I say this because, seemingly, R.A. Salvatore was out of the loop with Drizzt remaining a Drow, and thus, having his soul eternally damned by not being "saved" and cleansed by the grace of Eilistraee. Anyway, if this is indeed what is what happened in this case, it is entirely possible that Steve Schend was also "out of the loop" in regards to the outcome of the Lady Penitent books when he penned Blackstaff Tower.
-That said, Blackstaff Tower takes place in the 4-Gotten Realms, so anything new regarding this specific issue, if in the book, will probably be somewhat limited, as it would most likely be told via character discussion and/or flashbacks and such.
-I'm not sure about that. Has Steve said anything about Dark Elves, specifically? I say this because, seemingly, R.A. Salvatore was out of the loop with Drizzt remaining a Drow, and thus, having his soul eternally damned by not being "saved" and cleansed by the grace of Eilistraee. Anyway, if this is indeed what is what happened in this case, it is entirely possible that Steve Schend was also "out of the loop" in regards to the outcome of the Lady Penitent books when he penned Blackstaff Tower.
-That said, Blackstaff Tower takes place in the 4-Gotten Realms, so anything new regarding this specific issue, if in the book, will probably be somewhat limited, as it would most likely be told via character discussion and/or flashbacks and such.
I don't expect in-depth exploration (if we get anything at all), but even an off-hand mention could prove illuminating. But you're right, who knows if Schend had any idea about the changes, though the fact that the books are closer in release date, and, presumably, were written closer together than The Orc King and Ascendancy of the Last were is encouraging if we're hoping for something.
-I see nothing wrong with an entity like Ka'Narlist being some kind of dark shadow manipulating events to his liking in the background...
Lots of possibilities here. As I said, a being of his standards would now surely rank among the highest archmagi Faerûn has seen, since I would assume that he was at his time one of the more powerful beings on Toril. 19,000 odd years later, well well.
On a sidenote, I do reckon that EC just gave one character a name and put him in there, much like this Evermeet attacker. A tool for the novel, but not much more. At least not one intended for greater things in the lore later on.
I for some reason find it more likely that both writers have foreknowledge and RAS just ignored it.
-That is very much likely. There's a 50/50 chance. Either he did know, or he didn't.
Lots of possibilities here. As I said, a being of his standards would now surely rank among the highest archmagi Faerûn has seen, since I would assume that he was at his time one of the more powerful beings on Toril. 19,000 odd years later, well well.
-Of course. Nothing published would contradict or preclude any of that, either. What did I stat him out as? Dark Elf Lich Wizard 20 / Archmage 5, I believe.
On a sidenote, I do reckon that EC just gave one character a name and put him in there, much like this Evermeet attacker. A tool for the novel, but not much more. At least not one intended for greater things in the lore later on.
-Nothing particularly gives me that indication.
-Of course. Nothing published would contradict or preclude any of that, either. What did I stat him out as? Dark Elf Lich Wizard 20 / Archmage 5, I believe.
Well, that would have him less powerful than "creatures" and "people" not even 500 years old.
-Nothing particularly gives me that indication.
The mere fact that e.g. hardly any of her protagonists of this book has been mentioned in the lorebooks after the novel should do.
Well, that would have him less powerful than "creatures" and "people" not even 500 years old.
-I'm not good with the Epic rules, so...;)
The mere fact that e.g. hardly any of her protagonists of this book has been mentioned in the lorebooks after the novel should do.
-That's not an indication of anything. As was mentioned in another thread, Bucky, Captain America's sidekick during the 40s, who was believed dead, was recently brought back after 60 years of hearing absolutely nothing from him.
His first return could be a 15th century sea elf who is lucky enough to find the right pearl and be possesed by Ka'Narlist. Though 17 thousand years of imprisonment will scramble souls a bit so the sea elfs soul perhaps could fight his influence. He is in a good position to learn the new magic with his knowledge of Mystryl area's 10the level magic and supreme intellect.
Some dark elven scolars might even want to salvage him just for the arcane knowledge he might impart them. First divining the pearls loaction... Aye a good concept for the first Darkelven character I'm gonna make.
That's if he survived the Spellplague.
-That's not the attitude to take. Suffice to say, though, I am sure he's sufficiently out of the picture to be "forgotten", as Zanan was saying.
-I'm not good with the Epic rules, so...;)
They are not that difficult, you know. BTW, Slapping levels on an NPC who will likely never see any action is fine. Methinks Karsus was an "arcanist" 41 in AD&D, as a human. I'd expect that Ilythiiri chap we spoke about have at least 10 more levels than him as well as being a lich. IF I'd not have him in my dead books, of course.
-That's not an indication of anything. As was mentioned in another thread, Bucky, Captain America's sidekick during the 40s, who was believed dead, was recently brought back after 60 years of hearing absolutely nothing from him.
If there was no other lore after Evermeet concerning the elves and the drow, sure. But there is, and quite a bit at that. I'd assume that Lisa would have taken up this chap too, in another kiira finding to the south. But we could talk endlessly about that and come to no satisfying conclusion. And we won't want to hand the Wizards an idea about one over-mega-powerful superchap who may put the Witch-King of Vaasa or Szass Tam into shade without breaking sweat. 4E and the new Realms are horrible enough as they are.
They are not that difficult, you know. BTW, Slapping levels on an NPC who will likely never see any action is fine. Methinks Karsus was an "arcanist" 41 in AD&D, as a human. I'd expect that Ilythiiri chap we spoke about have at least 10 more levels than him as well as being a lich. IF I'd not have him in my dead books, of course.
-Not necessarily. Sitting around in the background and doing particularly nothing wouldn't really net anyone experience points. There was a good article in DRAGON 351, I believe (the one with the Modron on the cover) about running Ancient Characters or NPCs.
If there was no other lore after Evermeet concerning the elves and the drow, sure. But there is, and quite a bit at that. I'd assume that Lisa would have taken up this chap too, in another kiira finding to the south. But we could talk endlessly about that and come to no satisfying conclusion. And we won't want to hand the Wizards an idea about one over-mega-powerful superchap who may put the Witch-King of Vaasa or Szass Tam into shade without breaking sweat. 4E and the new Realms are horrible enough as they are.
-Why do you assume she would?
-Anyway, as I said to Alediran, I'm sure he's "dead" to the design team, for all intents and purposes. And, I agree, that's a good thing. I'd hate to see what might become of a plothook including him.
Everybody who follows the Drow Pantheon that Lolth had achieved Greater Godhood. That after she made her return, she played a game with her daughter (Eilistraee) with the loser being the one who is killed. A game that Ao approved of and observed. That, and the game concluded with Eilistraee being the loser.
This means that the Drow that either followed or converted to Eilistraee were without a god or goddess. Those who converted after the death of the "masked god" may have turned their backs on this factor, as they believed their god was not truly killed. Thus, we will disregard on this theory.
The Drow that did follow Eilistraee were banished, mostly by a decree made by Lolth. Mostly because she has no use for Drow that followed her daughter. Which means one of two things:
1) Lolth decided that those Drow are no longer worthy of being such. So she used her power to transform them into something that is considered "pre-Drow" (i.e. Dark Elves).
2) Corellon (or his Faerun variant) finds this out and Lolth's plans for those Drow. So he offers to remove them for her, and makes an offer or explanation that only Lolth could accept. Same results.
As for Drizzit, if either are true, he is not affected. Because it was rumored that he is favored by Lolth. So even if he is good, I don't think she would give him up. As for Laerial, I also think is not a Eilistraee worshiper. Or is, but was excluded from all of this due to the fact she is one of the Seven Sisters.
But that is all speculation and theory, and wonder how things would turn out.
While we got the big results, i.e. various deities slain or "gone" (though it depends what "gone" actually means in days to come, since I am not sure whether Eilistraee is really gone) ... yet we hardly hear a word about the worshippers and clergy. There is detailed lore on the latter in various AD&D and 3E books pre WotSQ/LP and apart from the odd and rather unsatisfying half-sentence in TGHotR you gain no clue whatsoever on what befell the Selvetarmites, the Kiaransaleens and now the Eilistraeens. Like "some where absorbed, some turned their back on those deities" etc.. Heck, we have had settlements and cities filled with various worshippers (and I do not exactly mean clergy here, though wouldn't exclude them either) and one wonders what happened to them.
Since these FR novels essentially write canon, you would expect that some thought is spent on this issue too. As it stands now, given the new outline of both the FR and the publication timeline, it will probably take years till we find out. And after the 6-year real time horror marathon for the drow since WotSQ I, this is REALLY what we wanted.
BTW, I doubt that Lolth will stay alone in her Demonwebs and some Laveth-like demigods or heroines will sooner or later happen by, i.e. creeps who offer a challenge and are challangable for 4E super heroes.
I am pretty sure that Lolth's shock at the reversal of the descent for the untainted is unfeigned. I also think that this entire debacle was in fact a feint in a greater war; Eilistraee sacrificed herself to trick Lolth in direct confrontation with Corellon. She now faces a god of greater power and greater following in a game with the souls of all dark elves and drow, her own included, forfeit to the winner. She would never have agreed to face Corellon directly of her own.
-At this point in time, I don't believe that Corellon Larethian is a greater power than Lolth, if that's how you meant it. Lolth is likely a Greater Deity now, like Corellon Larethian, after the events of the War of the Spider Queen.
And Liriel is not one of the Sisters, Qilue was. I think little Baenre could really be named Eilistraaeen. I don't think Drizzt would be affected.
But getting back on several thousand years and having the Miyeritari back...
No clue why it happened.- Lolth is likely a Greater Deity now, like Corellon Larethian, after the events of the War of the Spider Queen.
What triggered this gift for Lolth?
What triggered this gift for Lolth?
Hi EB! Banned again I see... ;)
Hi EB! Banned again I see... ;)
Uhh...sure buddy..hope that works out for you ;)
She changed to Mystra after a while.
-Right. It is often confused that she is a Cleric, but Elaine Cunningham has stated that she is indeed NOT a Cleric of Mystra.
-Right. It is often confused that she is a Cleric, but Elaine Cunningham has stated that she is indeed NOT a Cleric of Mystra.
Actually, did you mean Eilistraee? I'm pretty sure she actually did become a cleric of Mystra.
Actually, did you mean Eilistraee? I'm pretty sure she actually did become a cleric of Mystra.
-Flip it around. :embarrass
In the last book of the Lady Penetant the Drow that can be transformed are changed into brown skinned and dark haired Dark Elves instead of Drow, what does that mean for the two best characters in the Realms?
Nothing. Only drow worshippers of Eilistraee are changed back into the original dark elves, but Drizzt worships Mielikki and Liriel worships Mystra. So they will remain drow.
Nothing. Only drow worshippers of Eilistraee are changed back into the original dark elves, but Drizzt worships Mielikki and Liriel worships Mystra. So they will remain drow.
No-o! It has nothing to do with regards to whom you worship. It depends whether you come from "tainted" dark elven ancestors or not. Those called "tainted" are those who answered Lolth's call (which was related via the fiend Wendonai) and turned to "evil", though not exclusively. There have (surely) been "evil" dark elves elsewhere too and one might suspect that those remained drow too. The problem arose when the spell meant to erase the "evil" dark elves from the surface of Toril run out of hand and all dark elves, whether good, neutral, evil, tainted or whatever, where drawn into the Underdark (following the faerzress) and became drow. Some deservingly, others not. And it is this "not" part of them who were turned back into (brown) "dark elves" again. Lots of ifs and buts still to answer here, but that is in essence the main lore to be taken out of LP III.
BTW, it is a shame that the roster of characters is virtually wiped out ... and that the main protagonist in terms of the big changes is once again a wizard.
Can all those High Mages in Rhymanthiin not just reverse drow to dark elves on a case by case basis? I mean it is a simple ritual of Compliment.
-In theory, sure. All of need is a single Selu'Taar with knowledge of the Akh''Faen''Tel''Quessir ritual.
Actually Zanan both the untainted and the worshipper of Eilistraee get changed. That is what Qilue and Eilistraee accomplished. The untainted got change back to Dark Elves by the ritual and those who worshipped Eilistraee profited from the miracle part.
Well, when making a close-read for my revision on that book over at the DnD-Gate, I will look carefully for that bit of info.
Well, when making a close-read for my revision on that book over at the DnD-Gate, I will look carefully for that bit of info.
That is the good thing about having a huge desk with a dozen piles of D&D books and novels on it. Ready access to sources;)
-I have to go up two flights of stairs...
Well, your NYPD bosses will like your approach to keeping fit and all :D
I have to walk ten whole feet... which is much worse than two flights since there's only two of those, while I have ten...
How bout 40 inches.... Whew I feel the burn already....
Poor Ody...
Rough... very rough. Little in the world that some epoxy or plastic explosives won't fix though, so look at that bright side... :D
Yup, I even have a gas mask in the drawer of my desk that I use when my smelly Sargent comes by my office. (no joke, I yell "GAS GAS GAS" and do the Gas hand signal and put it on)
Though I will probably laugh. :D
You are gonna get slapped one day, and I'm not gonna do a thing to stop it... :P
Though I will probably laugh. :D
I also have a big red bull**** button and every timethey give a bull**** order I press it (that one they like cuz they also use it when they get a creppy order)