Thoughts?
Thanks for the response. I was wondering because I already found inconsistencies between the novel Ed Greenwood Presents Waterdeep: Mistshore and the FRCG. Mainly, I posted the question as I am surprised there are inconsistencies in everything I'm reading since 4e. Perhaps they need to hire a lore expert to proof things.
Perhaps they need to hire a lore expert to proof things.
-Star Wars has such a person, I believe. A good idea, that. One I never think will come to be, but a good idea, nonetheless.
Also, the way they portray spells being learned and cast follow 3e not 4e as they still have mages and sorcerers casting the same spells more than once and more than a 4e wizard could even know.
My thought is that they are keeping the feel of 3e in the novels and not using the 4e mechanics.
My thought is that they are keeping the feel of 3e in the novels and not using the 4e mechanics.
OK. Is it just me, or is the only novel that is meant to be based in 4e Realms Swordmage?
Where did these Waterdeep novels come in?
Ed Greenwood Presents Waterdeep: Blackstaff Tower, Mistshore, Downshadow, and City of the Dead are all 4e books and take place post spellplague.
What!!!?
Where the hell are these at and why haven't I seen them??!!
-Star Wars has such a person, I believe. A good idea, that. One I never think will come to be, but a good idea, nonetheless.
That is a good idea. But when you say Star Wars does, do mean Del-Ray who releases the novels?
OK. Is it just me, or is the only novel that is meant to be based in 4e Realms Swordmage?
-Right now, just Swordmage, and the prologue and epilogue of The Orc King. But, obviously, give it time, and more will be published. Like the bunch that Kara mentioned.
That is a good idea. But when you say Star Wars does, do mean Del-Ray who releases the novels?
-Hereyou go. Oh, and if I never mentioned that I think George Lucas is a
, well, there you go.-Hereyou go. Oh, and if I never mentioned that I think George Lucas is a
why?
-That, and simply because he is stupid, and wants Star Wars to be "Black and White", and not "Shades of Gray", he invalidated the work of numerous authors, and progress into the setting itself by saying, "That stuff is wrong. My way is the right way, and the only way." Such an arrogant SOB.
Havign said that, the Dark Horse comics have been generally quite good
He is arrogant I'll grant you. But most of the novels are pure crap, especially recently. I would be ****** about the Vong and the Legacy of the Force stuff myself
-We're getting tangential, but the Legacy of the Force stuff is probably the best Star Wars literature out there. You can ask Rin, I quit reading Star Wars novels because of the conclusion of that series.
-His attitude. Did you read the article I linked? He says things like, "I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world". Imagine if Ed Greenwood had that type of attitude, concerning Forgotten Realms sourcebooks, and novels...
-That, and simply because he is stupid, and wants Star Wars to be "Black and White", and not "Shades of Gray", he invalidated the work of numerous authors, and progress into the setting itself by saying, "That stuff is wrong. My way is the right way, and the only way." Such an arrogant SOB.
Wasn't the big deal about the novels that they were canon? Wasn't there some kind of Lucal seal of approval that stated that all those published works, from novels to comics, were canon? Cause I remember that being the case, in which case, yeah, it's BS that they get billed as such only for Lucas to come out and say "No, they're not". Lucas is, at once, the best and worst thing to have ever happened to Star Wars. There're some areas of Star Wars where he's a blessing. But frankly, there're many more areas where he's a blight.
Wasn't the big deal about the novels that they were canon? Wasn't there some kind of Lucal seal of approval that stated that all those published works, from novels to comics, were canon?
-Yes. Like I said, imagine if Ed Greenwood said something along the lines of, "Elaine Cunningham's novels? Steve Schend's novels? Never read them. I don't consider them in my world. My world, the real Forgotten Realms, is different from the world that all of those people write in."
-We're getting tangential, but the Legacy of the Force stuff is probably the best Star Wars literature out there. You can ask Rin, I quit reading Star Wars novels because of the conclusion of that series.
Yes, I can confirm that. ;)
Wasn't there some kind of Lucal seal of approval that stated that all those published works, from novels to comics, were canon?
I believe they are subject to Lucas approval
but they are not canon as far as Lucas is concerned. That is, when he creates his upcoming TV series set after the acendance of the Empire, you can bet he won't consider the numerouse projects set in that time period
-We're getting tangential, but the Legacy of the Force stuff is probably the best Star Wars literature out there. You can ask Rin, I quit reading Star Wars novels because of the conclusion of that series.
So you like them. But then you quit them?
So you like them. But then you quit them?
-After reading the conclusion, and being unhappy about (A) the conclusion to the final book in the series, and (B) the general direction the setting is going, in terms of "devolving" back into something unrealistic, I vowed not to read another Star Wars book, yes.
-Not thinking, I picked up a new softcover novel that I saw at Barnes & Noble last time I went- Jedi Hunt trilogy? A new one- and, true to my word, I haven't read it. It's just sitting on my bookshelf, sideways instead of upright, so I know it's not something I've read. And, it won't be, either.
But I suppose it would cut down on the active thread count.
Bel
I can only hope that someday the madness will end and novels will no longer be canon. Then the designers can decide what changes if any to make to the setting. Less RSEs, less NPCs and no need for convoluted reasons for things to have happened.
Bel
The authors still have to clear their stories with WotC, and some are given specific stories to write. The designers are not in any way at the mercy of the writers. In fact several of the designers pull double duty, and so get to use there newest ideas in those books. This is a great way to roll out some of those ideas.
scroll down and you have your answer, but also the problems. :embarrass
To SW: They created three kinds of official canon and it isn't Del Rey who are watching over it, it is a staff of people of LucasFilm Ltd. (and maybe some of DelRey?). The first canon is G-canon, that are only the films and every detail slipping out of GLs mind.
Second is C-canon thats pretty much everything, like novels, films, games, RPG stuff, comics and so on
Last is S-canon and that are mostly called infinity, because that are the kind of stories what would have happened if this or that changed....
Interesting about GLs mentioning that he never read the stuff is, that even in his new trilogy are some characters, names and places which are clearly inspired through stuff of the Expanded Univers (like this blue Twi'lek Jedi Ayala Secura). Or some stuff mentioned about the ancient Sith, wich was told in old comics, and then somewhere he even said once that he enjoyed comics like Dark Empire and he had influence in the stories of the Tales of the Jedi. So he is telling much, but most is fubar.
Edit: Oh nice, now they have created 5 canon levels, seems they wanna built a skyscaper.
While some fans prefer a unified approach, wherein the entire Expanded Universe and the films are treated on the same level[3] (but not with the same degree of canonicity), others prefer a system where only the films themselves are true canon,
*lol* thats the best of it, the long long discussions in forums about what every one likes most.
I was wondering about this as I read the newest FR novels and campaign guide. If the answer is yes, then I would think the novels and setting need to follow the same material. If the answer is no, then deviation (somestimes extreme) is fine.
Thoughts?
Official content.
Canon is a desert-god term for politically accepted fairytales..
I can only hope that someday the madness will end and novels will no longer be canon. Then the designers can decide what changes if any to make to the setting. Less RSEs, less NPCs and no need for convoluted reasons for things to have happened.
Bel
-In a world where there are only going to be 2 sourcebooks, and that's it (I don't count adventures, as there is very little in them that can be canon), I feel that the importance of novels being canon has grown in importance. With no periodic sourcebooks to add and move the setting along (so far, the online DRAGON/DDI articles have been "filling in" things not in the FRCG, not adding), novels are going to be the sole thing keeping the setting a living setting.
Official content.
Canon is a desert-god term for politically accepted fairytales..
-The term has been appropriated by other "industries" to be the official take on things, so, no, it is not just limited to specific religions.
--Not thinking, I picked up a new softcover novel that I saw at Barnes & Noble last time I went- Jedi Hunt trilogy? A new one- and, true to my word, I haven't read it. It's just sitting on my bookshelf, sideways instead of upright, so I know it's not something I've read. And, it won't be, either.
well, its not set in the same time period. Its set during I believe the time of the Empire
And I heard it was pretty good
So if a 4E novel depicts all drow capable of levitation or warlocks using prestidigitation, that would be artistic liberty. However, if the same novel goes into detail about the current inhabitants of, let's say, Candlekeep, that by default is canon.
So surely continuity should be high and contradictions low?
Other settings on the other hand, such as Eberron, are intentionally static. In that world novels do not affect the world whatsoever.
I believe the rule of thumb still is that novels are canon except when contradicted by the rules (unless the contradiction is referenced in a later rules source, in which case it can be retroactively considered to have been canon all along).
-No, the novels are canon, and the sourcebooks are, and both carry the same "weight". The novels, being set in the D&D multiverse, have to, a degree, follow the sourcebooks, in terms of rules and such, like the example you cited.
We saw that changes to the 4E Realms were being made right up to the last minute, so it shouldn't be surprising to see contradictions in novels that were written, edited and turned in for publication before the 4E Realms finally saw print.
This is the most likely explanation for the contradiction Karazhan found.
-Yes, yes they are supposed to be canon. Same as it ever was.
Hmmm...interesting. I've always used them as the tales Bards tell. Fact or Fiction, listener beware.
Hmmm...interesting. I've always used them as the tales Bards tell. Fact or Fiction, listener beware.
-Nope. Novels are canon. The things that individuals say in novels, however, need not be canon. In other words, it is canon that the Time of Troubles happened. It is not canon however, that Cyric is the most powerful deity in the "Faerûnian Pantheon" because he said, on page XXX of ABC novel, "I am the most powerful deity in the cosmos!"
Except in very few specific circumstances, if it has a Forgotten Realms logo on it then it's canon. This includes everything from novels, comics, video games, etc...
Are you sure about video games? There was a commonly quoted letter from WotC (it usually popped up in discussions about the Baldur's Gate games) about how video games in themselves are generally not canon because there is usually more than one path through the game and usually more than one ending. Not to mention the fact that none of the FR CRPGs I've played have ever been entirely consistent with official Realmslore.
Thanks for so many and varied thoughts and opinions. I think the bottom line is that Wizards needs to hire a content reader to review Fr novels or highly irritating errors will continue.
Errors are normal, because novels usually talks about "exceptions of the rule", because if they didn't put in something like that then it wouldn't be interesting. Plus a novel is one of the most canon sources (and a good source for information also) you can find in the Realms.
In Dragonwall a hundred mages and a hundred gryphon riders under the command of Szazz got owned by a barbarian ambush consisting of four thousand. NOt one lived.
-Nope. Novels are canon. The things that individuals say in novels, however, need not be canon. In other words, it is canon that the Time of Troubles happened. It is not canon however, that Cyric is the most powerful deity in the "Faerûnian Pantheon" because he said, on page XXX of ABC novel, "I am the most powerful deity in the cosmos!"
Novels can sometimes be confusing, because what a single character implies might be different in reality. It could only talk about a persons concept of somebody. Like Entreri being the greatest assassin in the planet. We all know that aint true.
Thanks for so many and varied thoughts and opinions. I think the bottom line is that Wizards needs to hire a content reader to review Fr novels or highly irritating errors will continue.
I think the bottom line is to avoid any novels based in another genre, and most especially games-worlds.
They usually don't compare with regular Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels, and also cause a lot of headaches for fans (like what, exactly, is canon?)
Do what I do - I don't read any books set in game-worlds. There are a ton of great series that have nothing to do with RPGs, so you can go a lifetime without reading any of that garbage.
It works both ways, too - things that started out as novels or films don't make for good games, and movies based on games are just horrendous.
I'd bring up Streetfighter, but I think the D&D movies speak for themselves.
Novels can sometimes be confusing, because what a single character implies might be different in reality. It could only talk about a persons concept of somebody. Like Entreri being the greatest assassin in the planet. We all know that aint true.
-Before we even dissect that, we first need to determine what "assassin" means. Someone who has levels in the Assassin PrC? Someone who is a Rogue, who kills for money? Someone who is another class, who kills for money?
-Most claims of Entreri being the "greatest assassin" are usually made in-game, however, not meta-game.
I think it would be a great idea. I did a double-take when reading in the recent Waterdeep novels that spellcasters were using detention and location magics throughout both stories. It specifically says in the guide that since the spellplague in Waterdeep "detection and location magic no longer functions. Such spells feature in old tales but are unknown in life today".
Also, the way they portray spells being learned and cast follow 3e not 4e as they still have mages and sorcerers casting the same spells more than once and more than a 4e wizard could even know.
My thought is that they are keeping the feel of 3e in the novels and not using the 4e mechanics.
Well... can you blame 'em? Crap who would want to read a fantasy novel so full of a bunch of beanie babies running around a completely devastated Forgotten Realms with their little combat tricks that suddenly they can't use anymore until they get into a new fight because "oh man that's an encounter power or that's a daily power" 3.5 made waaaay more logical sense for fantasy fiction, for 4e you would just about have to do everything in anime if you wanted to actually follow the rules.
Well... can you blame 'em? Crap who would want to read a fantasy novel so full of a bunch of beanie babies running around a completely devastated Forgotten Realms with their little combat tricks that suddenly they can't use anymore until they get into a new fight because "oh man that's an encounter power or that's a daily power" 3.5 made waaaay more logical sense for fantasy fiction, for 4e you would just about have to do everything in anime if you wanted to actually follow the rules.
Sorry to follow up my own post it is just that 4e doesn't say novel material to me. It may be a workable game but it doesn't seem like the kind of thing that would work very well in a novel if you actually tried to make the characters in the story stick to the rules of the game.
-A suggestion: Why not ask Mr. Kemp, who is kind enough to field question asked here, about how he plans to "deal" with this issue.
That is a good idea. But when you say Star Wars does, do mean Del-Ray who releases the novels?
Lucas Liscensing is the one who has the database--called the Holocron after a repository of Force knowledge in-universe. I'd love for Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance and Eberron to have such a database to keep continuity. Call it the Loremaster's Library, or something like that.
EDIT: Of course, with the sheer volume of stories taking place in the Realms and in Krynn, there'd almost have to be a reboot, which most of us probably don't want.
EDIT: Of course, with the sheer volume of stories taking place in the Realms and in Krynn, there'd almost have to be a reboot, which most of us probably don't want.
well, why not at this point?
I was wondering about this as I read the newest FR novels and campaign guide. If the answer is yes, then I would think the novels and setting need to follow the same material. If the answer is no, then deviation (somestimes extreme) is fine.
Thoughts?
No, no they are not.
If they ever had been one should ask why characters carry weapons after 3E that were non existent or why drow use powers they can't actually use in the RPG.
Bottom line, while novels may be good for mining ideas they are not the place to create cannon fluff or crunch for the RPG.
well, why not at this point?
Continuity errors once thought small start to pile up against each other in the long run and make holes in the continuity that would be either extremely difficult or downright impossible to retcon out.
To such extent, Greenwood has pened a new novel "Dark Warrior Rising" in which he redefines the dark elves in his original intent for them. BTW it was realy good read, I'm not much of a Greenwood fan.
Actually, the question has already been officiallyanswered and the novels are supposed to be canon.
Please show me the official part of the FRCS which lists any or all novels as being official game products, there not even listed as such on this site.
Lucas Liscensing is the one who has the database--called the Holocron after a repository of Force knowledge in-universe. I'd love for Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance and Eberron to have such a database to keep continuity. Call it the Loremaster's Library, or something like that.
EDIT: Of course, with the sheer volume of stories taking place in the Realms and in Krynn, there'd almost have to be a reboot, which most of us probably don't want.
Krynn had a canon lore and mainly the gamestuff was following the novel stories, because in Krynn the stories of the great heroes was mostly told in novels and also with them what happened, changed and evolved in Krynn. The Sourcebooks are mostly some stuff to help a gamer play "besides" the main story and the heroes of the lance or between the chaos wars and their heroes, the Age of Mortals and the war there.
The thing with Krynn is that most novels tell "RSE" events or the live of some characters who played a prominent role in this world. It's a more epic style like LotR and not like in FR, where events like the ones from Salvatore or even the War of the Spider Queen and so on have not so much influence on the live of most of the living people in the FR (I think in Calimshan, BG, Amn and Co, no one would even have known that Lolth was silent, or care about Drizzts capturing of Mithril Hall and all the stuff), in Krynn everyone knows about Tanis and his problems with the elven nobilty and if a special Kender comes into the next inn with some grumbling dwarf, most would think there is another shaking event and war coming).
Please show me the official part of the FRCS which lists any or all novels as being official game products, there not even listed as such on this site.
If you read the thread, you could have found the link.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20080828a
"9. We’re not retconning. We’re assuming that everything that was, was.
PA: I guess you could call this the “not throwing out the baby or the bathwater” rule. If it happened in a novel or in a game product—any part of the FORGOTTEN REALMS canon—it happened. We aren’t going to ask you to buy a copy of The Grand History of the Realms then throw it away. Every detail ever published on this massive setting is still there, is still a part of the history of this living, breathing world. We may have a hundred years’ worth of distance from it, but it happened, and all that history will continue to inform authors, game designers, players, and DMs as they continue to explore the FORGOTTEN REALMS world.
BRC: You know, there might be a couple niggling little details that the 4th Edition rules insist upon that we may just ignore. For instance, I doubt you’ll see a three-novel epic on how halflings grew, on average, an extra foot.
But barring strange little bits like that, if a story has been told about something to establish it in the previous setting edition, then another story describes how that feature reached its current manifestation in the 4th Edition FORGOTTEN REALMS setting—even if we haven’t yet told you that story. It’s a wide world filled new opportunity. I can’t wait for my Elfharrow elf barbarian character to go on his next adventure. When’s that going to be, Phil?"
...or care about Drizzts capturing of Mithril Hall and all the stuff
I don't either.
As I understand it the 2e FR was Ed Greewood's creation. Then came R.A. Salvatore who laid down the first indepth detailed a day in the life of the Drow. Salvatore instantly became the more popular story teller of the Realms. When 3.x was developed WotC went along with the Salvatore model of FR over Greenwood's, and Salvatore and company have been shaping the FR ever sence. As I understand it.
So you understand it wrong, obviously. :P
At least the part with Ed. What he said was always supposed to be canon (until they retconed it) and he had/has a great deal in shaping the Realms. Moreover, he and Salvatore arranged the content of Salvatore's books to a certain degree (e.g. the chosen of deneir - Salvatore 'asked Ed for permission' to create his own chosen). And so on...
I don't either.
So you understand it wrong, obviously. :P
At least the part with Ed. What he said was always supposed to be canon (until they retconed it) and he had/has a great deal in shaping the Realms. Moreover, he and Salvatore arranged the content of Salvatore's books to a certain degree (e.g. the chosen of deneir - Salvatore 'asked Ed for permission' to create his own chosen). And so on...
I see.
If you read the thread, you could have found the link.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20080828a
"9. We’re not retconning. We’re assuming that everything that was, was.
PA: I guess you could call this the “not throwing out the baby or the bathwater” rule. If it happened in a novel or in a game product—any part of the FORGOTTEN REALMS canon—it happened. We aren’t going to ask you to buy a copy of The Grand History of the Realms then throw it away. Every detail ever published on this massive setting is still there, is still a part of the history of this living, breathing world. We may have a hundred years’ worth of distance from it, but it happened, and all that history will continue to inform authors, game designers, players, and DMs as they continue to explore the FORGOTTEN REALMS world.
BRC: You know, there might be a couple niggling little details that the 4th Edition rules insist upon that we may just ignore. For instance, I doubt you’ll see a three-novel epic on how halflings grew, on average, an extra foot.
But barring strange little bits like that, if a story has been told about something to establish it in the previous setting edition, then another story describes how that feature reached its current manifestation in the 4th Edition FORGOTTEN REALMS setting—even if we haven’t yet told you that story. It’s a wide world filled new opportunity. I can’t wait for my Elfharrow elf barbarian character to go on his next adventure. When’s that going to be, Phil?"
You do know the interview you cite actually dis-credits your argument right?
In that it doesn't mesh up with the D&D RPG books, where they list what is needed to play the game (no where does it list or even suggest the novels or the Grand History of the Realms). It also suggests that 4E rules (some of them) won't be addressed at all in the novels, are you suggesting that we should take the new novels as erratta for halfling size?
This seems to me simply to be a bone there throwing to old guard FR fans who wish to feel 4E FRs will be just as tied to authors and not DMs as past versions, which does not mach the rule books definition of what is an (official) rule book.
That's just my interpretation.
As I understand it the 2e FR was Ed Greewood's creation. Then came R.A. Salvatore who laid down the first indepth detailed a day in the life of the Drow.
-Two things: The Forgotten Realms were Ed Greenwood's creation, yes, but the framework was laid long before D&D, when he just used general characters and places as settings for short stories. I do the same in my own campaign setting. Secondly, I believe that Mr. Salvatore began writing about the Drow, and Drizzt, in 1e.
If you scroll up in the thread you can see that Iakhovas answered that.
As I understand it the 2e FR was Ed Greewood's creation.
The Forgotten Realms setting was created by Ed Greenwood, period, not just the 2E FR.
Then came R.A. Salvatore who laid down the first indepth detailed a day in the life of the Drow. Salvatore instantly became the more popular story teller of the Realms. When 3.x was developed WotC went along with the Salvatore model of FR over Greenwood's, and Salvatore and company have been shaping the FR ever sence. As I understand it.
Sounds like you don't understand things well, sorry. Sure, RAS had a hand in creating certain parts of the Realms, but he's a freelance writer, not a setting designer. I've never heard of him coming up with a "model of the FR", much less it being used as the standard of the 3E FR.
Keep in mind that “canon” is primarily a device used by designers to maintain continuity, and should never be seen as restriction to be placed upon anyone’s individual campaigns.
You do know the interview you cite actually dis-credits your argument right?
In that it doesn't mesh up with the D&D RPG books, where they list what is needed to play the game (no where does it list or even suggest the novels or the Grand History of the Realms). It also suggests that 4E rules (some of them) won't be addressed at all in the novels, are you suggesting that we should take the new novels as erratta for halfling size?
This seems to me simply to be a bone there throwing to old guard FR fans who wish to feel 4E FRs will be just as tied to authors and not DMs as past versions, which does not mach the rule books definition of what is an (official) rule book.
That's just my interpretation.
It seems your problem is, that you do not know what canon means. It had nothing to do with game statistics in special and how to use them for your game. So your interpretation is only wrong in what was the question of this thread. That's all.
The list what you need to play had nothing to do with what you can use also besides that whats in this or that book.