Which is your favorite?
Why?
I have a reason for asking, really I do! (But I am not telling just yet!)
So... are you a fan?
Have you read all his books?
Which is your favorite?
Why?
I have a reason for asking, really I do! (But I am not telling just yet!)
So... are you a fan?
I like that drizzt guy who I played in the menzoberranzan PC game. Although I admit that I modded his stats and changed him to a cleric/mage/ranger. I hex edited that game so much.
Have you read all his books?
Which is your favorite?
Why?
I have a reason for asking, really I do! (But I am not telling just yet!)
So... are you a fan?
I really liked his early stuff when Drizzt was first introduced into the gaming world !
The Icewind Dale trilogy was the first series of books I ever read connected to the D&D game and for a while i was pulled into the Realms as the place I loved to adventure in.
Its a long time since those books were out and I think ive read most of the other novels but the only ones ive kept to re-read are the Icewind Dale Trilogy.
Does that make me a fan ? Well I suppose in one small way yes.
I'm currently reading his legendary Legend of Drizzt series and am only on the third book, Sojourn. They really set the pace for fantasy for me and I rate it up there with the LotR books!
As an aside, my brother actually met him once at a signing for some of his non-D&D material. He said he was a really nice guy and was great to talk to. The only autographed book I own is one of his, now that I think about it.
Having now made myself a pariah, I plan slink into a hole somewhere and lurk for a while.
Vector Prime is really good, otherwise, not so much.
He has to be! He keeps the entire multiverse space-time continuum functioning properly!
Oh, wait, wrong Vector Prime.
As a gamer/fan of certain series: I am decidedly not a fan. I never enjoyed the concept that launched the concept of twenty-thousand meilekki-worshiping Drow rangers, he killed Chewbacca (regardless of Lucas' involvment), and given half the chance to interpret someone elses' IP, it seems like his goal is to throw as many flies in the ointment as possible while having his babies come out smelling rosy-sweet and looking silky-smooth.
If I had to pick a book I'd probably go with the Cleric Quintet.
And yes it was one book when I read it.
I kept current with his work until The Thousand Orcs and found myself disappointed with that book. So didn't finish the trilogy or read anything else from him that has come out since then.
I did get to meet him briefly at GenCon with his son, Geno. Nice guy, although I think I might have irked him a bit because I mistook his son for his younger brother (I didn't know about "The Stowaway" until after I met him).
So, am I fan? Used to be. Not so much anymore. Favorite book is probably Streams of Silver, although The Legacy ranks up there also. Streams of Silver introduced Entreri, who I enjoy reading more than Drizzt. The Legacy brought together the Icewind Dale Trilogy story and characters with the Dark Elf Trilogy story and characters and killed Wulfgar (not that I don't like him, but I preferred to see Catti-brie with Drizzt).
But overall, Saltavtore is too prone to "the best" characters. Just look at the cast list. The dwarfiest Dwarf. The halfling is naturally a good thief. Best swordsman. Best assassin. Strongest Barbarian. No doubt the drunkest drunk now. Best archer thanks to magic bow. Turned me off of his books. Never get an above average, nope, always the best.
And I hate Drizzt Syndrome.
Ages ago I read the Icewind Dale trilogy. It was ok. Then a handfull of his stuff over the next few years. After about 5 or 6 books though his stuff just blurred together & I decided I didn't care to read any more.
I dunno if I be a fan, but his books are fun reads.
After Siege of Darkness, the books started to go downhill, and the entire Orc War really wasn't all that thrilling to me. With the jump, it's gotten even more tedious and I keep wondering why am I buying them, but unfortunately I'm hooked.
I'd say my favorites were probably Homeland as #1, then The Legacy and that entire arc (Starless Night, Siege of Darkness. Passage of Dawn was okay, better then the books that followed.
After that probably comes the Silent Blade and Sea of Swords, but couldn't stand the Wulfgar is drunk book (Spine of the World).
I also enjoyed the Servant of the Shard and the Promise of the Witch King.
Those would be my favorites.
Icewind Dale Trilogy and Cleric Quintet are okay, not my favorites by far however. His spear wielder series is also okay. Fun at least.
His more recent stuff however...not really to my liking.
Yes, in many ways, I suppose I am. I found his Spearwielder's Tale trilogy hilarious, and one of the better examples of the "modern, real-world human in fantasy setting" trope out there. I found The Highwayman an exquisite piece of work, even if it showed that he had no clue what the real method of making a "folded steel" blade was. But it was intriguing and had a fairly compelling main character.
However, what I am not, by any means, is a fan of any of his Forgotten Realms novels. I can't even begin to make myself want to like Drizzt on some levels, and find him a dull choice for a main character. I enjoy some of the secondary characters like Jarlaxle, or even what little is seen of Zaknafein as a character, or Vierna and her interactions with Drizzt. But I really just find Drizzt himself to be kind of a dull read.
Furthermore--as some of my friends who have read further into the series have said--it seems like Salvatore just doesn't know when to let his primary protagonists die or otherwise just fade away. This is probably largely due to the apparently huge fan-base Drizzt has, but it seems like Salvatore has really begun to exhaust his characters' capability to have yet another story told about them that will surpass their previous works, simply because he's told all the good tales and now has to top them. Again, however, this is nominally based on complaints I've heard from friends who have kept up with the series and were even fans of the characters, but now feel it's dragging; I can't be sure if this is true or not. But it is enough to put me off reading the rest of his series.
And in the end, though I like some of Salvatore's work outside of the Legends of Drizzt, I don't feel he's anything spectacular as a writer. I've read several other fantasy writers, both well-known and uncommon, and I've found plenty that write better. I find most of Salvatore's work a bit average, when it gets down to it, though some of it is still entertaining.
Who?
(No, I'm just kidding, but seriously, the only place I know him from is from being mentioned around these boards, and I've never been given any reason to check his stuff out. I just don't care.)
I have to say that I am now a fan of his.
Ressurect Zaknafein already:D
fav book is the icewind dale trilogy and only because that was the first book of his i read
He's better than Christopher Paolini, at least.
Have you read all his books?
Which is your favorite?
Why?
I have a reason for asking, really I do! (But I am not telling just yet!)
So... are you a fan?
I've read all his Forgotten Realms novels (and about half or so of the short stories).
My favorite would be The Silent Blade. It was both the best written (prose & technique) as well as the most satisfying for me personally since it finally wrapped up the decade-long rivalry between Artemis and Drizzt.
Definitely a fan :D
Nothing beats my personal deity Stackpole :P
Just keep Stackpole well clear of the SWEU and nobody gets hurt.
Just keep Stackpole well clear of the SWEU and nobody gets hurt.
To head further OT, that's not entirely fair. I, Jedi was at least as well written as Episodes 1-3.
Just keep Stackpole well clear of the SWEU and nobody gets hurt.
Quite Frankly Rogue and Wraith squadrons are Both by FAR better written than the Movies Episode I-III. Anyone that is > george lucas has a right to write Star Wars fluff if he has that right.
On topic. Fraid not. I just don't see the Appeal of Drizzt. At all.
To head further OT, that's not entirely fair. I, Jedi was at least as well written as Episodes 1-3.
That's not exactly high praise.
That said, you can't argue success. He's managed to strike a chord with many people and made a metric ****ton of cash doing it. I'd like to have even a fraction of that success, though I guess to do so I'd have to actually finish writing one of my novels…
I, Jedi was at least as well written as Episodes 1-3.
Wow, talk about damning with faint praise.
Streams of Silver is my favorite Salvatore book.
Sar
Yes, I have enjoyed his books. I have read all the Drizzt books except for The Orc King at this point. I have also read two of the three Crimson Shadows books. And I read the Cleric series. My favorites remain the prequel books of Drizzt ( I even picked up the graphic novelizations of them).
Same except I haven't read the Crimson Shadows.
My favorites are Exhile and Passage to Dawn.
I agree with some of you about Spine of the World (Wulfgur drunk). I've introduced the series to several friends, but always warn about that particular book.
Every now and then he has some lines that come in every book (Example: If he was hurt by that blow, he didn't show it), however, I do love some of his scenes, and not just the fighting ones.
I met him at the book signing in Lexington Green, was too nervous to really talk to him about anything other than my undying (platonic) love for Belwar Dissengulp and how much I missed him. He was nice and gladly signed Exile as well as The Stowaway (his son signed that one too of course ;))
R.A. Salvatore is one of my favorite authors to date. I do recommend the Cleric books (aside from my occasional annoyance with "Oi Oi" all the time, as much as I like Pikle (or is it Pickle?), he is annoying sometimes)
One last thought, I like that R.A. can kill a character off that you really liked (maybe not always forever, but I LOVED that one druid! (not talking about the dwarf))
Quite Frankly Rogue and Wraith squadrons are Both by FAR better written than the Movies Episode I-III. Anyone that is > george lucas has a right to write Star Wars fluff...
Seconded.
Just keep Stackpole well clear of the SWEU and nobody gets hurt.
I like Stackpole, I just prefer Corran Horn when he's not being written by Stackpole.
But Star Wars Authors always have a person/group that they love and want to show you how awesome they are. Even the ones I like. For example, Karen Traviss with the Mandalorians. Tim Zahn with the Chiss. Troy Denning with poor description and bad plotting.
Fan as in impressed that so much poor quality material has made him such a successful career? Yes.
Most of the Eu is more entertaining than episode 1-3 with the exceptions of gems like I Jedi, Crystal Planet, Planet of Twilight, Children of the Jedi and several NJO books.
I honestly wouldn't care about the new movies if they didn't have such a huge impact on the EU in the period immediately preceeding the OT. When I think of Star Wars, I'm primarily thinking of the EU.
I like Stackpole, I just prefer Corran Horn when he's not being written by Stackpole.
But Star Wars Authors always have a person/group that they love and want to show you how awesome they are. Even the ones I like. For example, Karen Traviss with the Mandalorians. Tim Zahn with the Chiss. Troy Denning with poor description and bad plotting.
Corran Horn is probably the biggest non-Mandalorian Mary Sue in the galaxy. It's absurd at times.
My main beef with Stackpole is how it always seems to come down to some completely unnecessary (and highly telegraphed) "twist" at the end of the book that hurls me from my suspended disbelief back into "seriously, they did that?" territory.
I'm only human; have mercy!
Come on, guys, give me a break. I'm trying desperately not to derail Solice's thread any further, but you keep tempting me with your Star Wars discussions.
I'm only human; have mercy!
Salvatore wrote Vector Prime, didn't he?
Corran Horn is probably the biggest non-Mandalorian Mary Sue in the galaxy. It's absurd at times.
And yet, it's not the character, it's when he writes the character. In many ways Corran Horn isn't nearly as impressive as, say, Kyle Katarn.
When you distill what's good about Corran Horn, it's his strong moral character, his ability to rationally evaluate situations, and his willingness to sacrifice himself for his goal.
When you go over his "power level", he's strong in illusion and energy manipulation, but he has no ability for T.K. He's a rogue squadron level pilot, but he's been out-classed by Jaina Solo, Wedge Antilles, Gavin Darklighter, Tycho Celchu, Luke Skywalker, etc. It's just that, when Stackpole is the one writing, Horn will always "find a way" to come out on top regardless of if he should or not.
My main beef with Stackpole is how it always seems to come down to some completely unnecessary (and highly telegraphed) "twist" at the end of the book that hurls me from my suspended disbelief back into "seriously, they did that?" territory.
What bothers me about him is the gary-sue-ism for Horn and the carbon copies of established characters (e.g., Mirax Terrik - Mara Jade). That said, I'll take him over Kevin J. Anderson, Barbara Hambley, Troy Denning, or a number of others any day of the week. At least Stackpole does a good job juggling a large cast of characters (though I would say Aaron Allston is even better).
The following Salatore readers have been picked at random to receive an advanced reading copy of R.A. Salvatore's newest book:
The Pirate King.
1. Sar
2. Tainted Soul
3. AffableDoomwalker
4. Crystal Blue
5. Bone Yard
6. Outlaw68
Send me a PM with your Real Name and a Mailing Address and I will send these along!
*edited to add that discussions of anything Salvatore seem appropriate to me. Continue on! ;)
I have to say, though, that my favorite book of his (that I've read, of course) has got to be Highwayman, which I'm kind of surprised hasn't been mentioned yet.
Thank you for your responses (and attempts to stay on topic *winks at mccowen*).
The following Salatore readers have been picked at random to receive an advanced reading copy of R.A. Salvatore's newest book:
The Pirate King.
1. Sar
2. Tainted Soul
3. AffableDoomwalker
4. Crystal Blue
5. Bone Yard
6. Outlaw68
Send me a PM with your Real Name and a Mailing Address and I will send these along!
*edited to add that discussions of anything Salvatore seem appropriate to me. Continue on! ;)
Where's my advanced copy of Star Wars: Corran Horn Wins by Stackpole?
Where's my advanced copy of Star Wars: Corran Horn Wins by Stackpole?
Didn't you say you already had I, Jedi? ;)
1. The Legacy: My favorite Drizzt bookset. I liked the cast and the story, and the drow are just plain awesome. It was a little confusing as I lacked background on these characters, but, eh, once I got into it it was a worthwhile read.
2. Dark Elf Trilogy: Decent enough. It was fun and all. Lacked cast, as most of the minor characters were one book throwaways sacrificed for dramatic effect.
3. The Hunter's Blades Trilogy: I liked the dark and gritty tone in this one, very nice. Of course R.A. Salvatore's tactics of wasting dramatic death on dues ex machina returns really begins to egg on me in this volume.
4. The Sellswords Trilogy: Would be higher if the author didn't shoot the bird at his fan-base and decide to do a complete plot 180 60% of the way into Road of the Patriarch. Also, Jarlaxle's performance was much better in The Legacy books.
5. Paths of Darkness and The Icewind Dale Trilogy: Tied for worst Drizzt book blocks. Icewind Dale was very amatuer in plot and execution, where as Paths of Darkness was overly depressing, pointless, existential and focused almost exclusively on my least favorite character: Wulfgar. Screw Wulfgar. He's flat, bland, and should have stayed dead.
Of course, thinking on it, that can be applied to all of the characters at all but the best of times. In fact, my tepid liking of the earlier volumes may only simply be the rose lenses of nostalgia. In fact, R.A. Salvatore seems to go from "Fun" at best to "Bleh" at worst. I have some of his other books, but I have yet to read them. I will say that as far as DnD fiction though, I like him better than Weis and Hickman. I've read the Deathgate Cycle. I know those two can do better than The War of Souls.
Do I like him? Eh, sure. Am I a fan? Ehhhh...
Didn't you say you already had I, Jedi? ;)
I, Jedi didn't get bad until he phoned in the ending.
Well...the sexy imperial admiral fawning over him was a little much.
The following Salatore readers have been picked at random to receive an advanced reading copy of R.A. Salvatore's newest book:
The Pirate King.
If I'd known there was a free book at stake, I would have faked it! I run out of stuff to read so quickly that I'll read (and even re-read) bad stuff, just to have something to do.Also, don't tell me about your "libraries". They always want to get their books back, which practically defeats the whole purpose.
But Star Wars Authors always have a person/group that they love and want to show you how awesome they are. Even the ones I like. For example, Karen Traviss with the Mandalorians. Tim Zahn with the Chiss. Troy Denning with poor description and bad plotting.
This is actually my problem with licensed fiction in general (D&D novels included): it comes to resemble fan-fiction, particularly in its failures. It's not that IP holders don't occasionally luck into a good author, or at least an average author who can do a good treatment of the source material (Timothy Zahn is a great example of the latter category).
The problem is that when you farm work out to a number of authors, make an effort to find authors you can get to work cheaply, and emphasize deadlines over content--then your quality suffers. Authors get lazy with their prose, they blueprint characters off one another, they use cliches and carbon-copy plotlines from existing material--in short, they turn into fan-fiction authors (even when, like Peter David in Star Trek and Michael Stackpole in Star Wars, they've managed quite acceptable novels in their own universes).
Which, of course, is how we end up with Corran and Drizzt and their ilk.
EDIT: On rereading, this came off harsher than I meant. I own a lot of SW EU novels, a number of Star Trek ones, and more than my share of WoTC-published fiction. Some of it is good and some of it is merely average, but much of it is enjoyable. Also, if I was offered the chance to play in Lucas' sandbox (even now that the executives in charge of NJO have peed all over it), I'd totally geek out, and much more importantly take the advance check to the bank.
But none of that means I can't recognize that I, Jedi is a guttering candle next to (to pick a random example from my bookshelf) the sci-fi canon of Lois McMaster Bujold.
4. The Sellswords Trilogy: Would be higher if the author didn't shoot the bird at his fan-base and decide to do a complete plot 180 60% of the way into Road of the Patriarch. Also, Jarlaxle's performance was much better in The Legacy books.
5. Paths of Darkness and The Icewind Dale Trilogy: Tied for worst Drizzt book blocks. Icewind Dale was very amatuer in plot and execution, where as Paths of Darkness was overly depressing, pointless, existential and focused almost exclusively on my least favorite character: Wulfgar. Screw Wulfgar. He's flat, bland, and should have stayed dead.
Totally agree with ya on the Road of the Patriarch. What the crap WAS that!? It's like R.A. went "shoot, ya know what, I may be done with Entreri, let's make his background shall we?
I liked the Icewind Dale Trilogy, not a big fan of the 1st book, the shard too similar to "The Ring" of LOTR. Paths of Darkness I totally hear ya. I actually do like Wulfgar...but...I liked him before he died. I was glad when he came back, but that gladness didn't last long.
Thank you for your responses (and attempts to stay on topic *winks at mccowen*).
The following Salatore readers have been picked at random to receive an advanced reading copy of R.A. Salvatore's newest book:
The Pirate King.
1. Sar
2. Tainted Soul
3. AffableDoomwalker
4. Crystal Blue
5. Bone Yard
6. Outlaw68
Send me a PM with your Real Name and a Mailing Address and I will send these along!
*edited to add that discussions of anything Salvatore seem appropriate to me. Continue on! ;)
dang it...Okay...well congrats to all who won it. I'll still be getting the book though...just not for free.
I love Salvatore's work. With a caveat.
The Drizzt books are the longest running series I've ever read all the books of. Well, I read more Star Wars novels back in the day, but that doesn't count.
However, those Drizzt's journal entry intros to chapters are awful. I just want to stab Drizzt when reading them. I don't see how a guy who lives in the Forgotten Realms, meets a unicorn he thinks is his god, then suddenly turns around during the Time of Troubles when everyone else meets their god to decide he did not actually meet his god and that not meeting his god makes him better than everyone else. As if blind faith is truly a wonderful thing... in a setting where gods walk the earth. And that's only one example.
These chapter introductions feature Drizzt becoming, for a short time, the most setting inappropriate Mary Sue I've ever read. He knows and reveals the inner motivations of the other characters with a pop psychology that makes me want to puke.
Edit: But anyone who can kill Chewbacca (even if Lucas asked him too) is okay by me.
Edit: But anyone who can kill Chewbacca (even if Lucas asked him too) is okay by me.
Man I was ****** about that... at first.
The further I got into the series, though, the more appropriate Chewie's last moments seemed. It was a good way for him to go out.
Show
coarcwooh rooohu anhuoarac. ra scoooowh. rooohu'rcwo orahananahwhrr scwo ohahaoac ra orrarcorahwhrr SCOOOOWH. *shakes fist defiantly at capricious creator*
Woo! Victory is mine!
You have to share that victory with me though
I have to say I am really amazed that I was randomly selected. I'm nevre randomly selected for anything and the one time I didn't even know what was going on I was. :OMG!
Have you read all his books?
Which is your favorite?
Why?
I have a reason for asking, really I do! (But I am not telling just yet!)
So... are you a fan?
I liked the Cleric's Quintet. Not great, but good. The rest though, has caused more damage to the Forgettable Realms since it was all canon than it was worth IMO.
I guess I can see the appeal of Drizzt amongst fantasy readers, but the character has failed to charm me into reading anymore about him.
My personal favorite Dark Elf character in all of fantasy literature: Morley Dotes.
Sar
Man I was ****** about that... at first.
The further I got into the series, though, the more appropriate Chewie's last moments seemed. It was a good way for him to go out.
I hated it, then I was okay with it, then they killed the child he gave his life to protect for no reason. After that I hated it again.
Oh, and this?
Showcoarcwooh rooohu anhuoarac. ra scoooowh. rooohu'rcwo orahananahwhrr scwo ohahaoac ra orrarcorahwhrr SCOOOOWH. *shakes fist defiantly at capricious creator*
When I first got into the FR and read the earliest Drizzt novels, I felt oversold on them--I was told they were "fantasy masterpieces", and while I didn't think they were terrible books, I found them to be standard fare, simplistic and even a bit dumb.
Perhaps I should be careful what I wish for, next time, because I'm starting to think the newer Drizzt books take themselves way too seriously. In addition to that, I don't think any one character (not even the characters I adore the most) needs 20+ novels. I understand that Drizzt sells, but that doesn't change my opinion that his story arc feels a bit played out by now.
Just to be clear, I've read every single Drizzt book except for the one that just came out.
18DELTA
Man I was ****** about that... at first.
The further I got into the series, though, the more appropriate Chewie's last moments seemed. It was a good way for him to go out.Showcoarcwooh rooohu anhuoarac. ra scoooowh. rooohu'rcwo orahananahwhrr scwo ohahaoac ra orrarcorahwhrr SCOOOOWH. *shakes fist defiantly at capricious creator*
I've been a big fan ever since, and I've read all the the Icewind Dale trilogy, the new trilogy, and whichever ones whre he's on a pirate ship
Have you read all his books?
Which is your favorite?
Why?
I have a reason for asking, really I do! (But I am not telling just yet!)
So... are you a fan?
My favorite would have to be Servant of the Shard. Mainly because I really like Jarlaxle.
I like RAS. First book of his I ever read was Vector Prime, and I figured if he had the guts to kill off Chewie, it might be worthwhile to check out his other stuff.
Just out of curiosity (and btw, I do not read and never have read the Star Wars novels), is it known for a fact that the killing off of Chewbacca was even RAS's idea? I'm only asking this because in the case of FR novels, authors are often asked put in certain plot elements (ie. the killing off of a character) even if they normally wouldn't choose to write such things. I'm pretty sure it works that way in most other shared settings, including Star Wars.
Just out of curiosity (and btw, I do not read and never have read the Star Wars novels), is it known for a fact that the killing off of Chewbacca was even RAS's idea? I'm only asking this because in the case of FR novels, authors are often asked put in certain plot elements (ie. the killing off of a character) even if they normally wouldn't choose to write such things. I'm pretty sure it works that way in most other shared settings, including Star Wars.
I've heard different things. That George Lucas ordered him to do it, that he demanded he be able to do it or he wouldn't write star wars, that he demanded he be able to kill some character off, etc.
I now turn to that bastion of truthiness, wikipedia:
At the time of its first publication, Vector Prime was extremely controversial among Star Wars fans in that its plot called for the death of Chewbacca, making the Wookiee the first major character from the original trilogy to be permanently killed off in the Expanded Universe novels. The concept of killing such a character was the decision of the book editors, who sent a list of characters they would like to kill to George Lucas, with Luke Skywalker at the top of the list. The response was what characters they couldn't kill, and Chewbacca wasn't on the list, hence his selection. This is covered - in some detail - in the round table interview with the series editors published at the end of the final New Jedi Order novel, The Unifying Force. Opinion was sharply divided as to whether this death of a beloved character was a cheap ploy to boost sales and interest in the new series, or if it served the dramatic purpose of declaring that not even the core characters were necessarily "safe" anymore.
That information from Wikipedia is certainly believable, but did the editor who wrote it cite his source(s)?
Good Lord, who knows what the truth is at this point.
That information from Wikipedia is certainly believable, but did the editor who wrote it cite his source(s)?
If they did, who's to say it's valid? Hence "truthiness" instead of truth.
If they did, who's to say it's valid?
Point taken.
Hence "truthiness" instead of truth.
Agreed...
I was thoroughly unimpressed by Vector Prime, and I don't think Salvatore really had any feel for the characters or the story he was writing. It just feels entirely different from the rest of the books in that series. I read the Drow trilogy, and it was ok, but nothing that really stuck with me. So no, I'm not really a Salvatore fan.
I don't think George Lucas has any significant involvement in the various novels and comics produced under the Star Wars license. Mostly the authors just submit their ideas, and his assistants tell them what's ok and what's not. The New Jedi Order's overall storyline was a cooperative effort hashed out by all of the authors, and Lucas just gave the ok. My impression is that Salvatore was not a central figure in the planning of that series, however; he only wrote one novel, and the series seemed to take a shift in direction about 1/3 of the way through.
Worse yet, most of the (contiguous) books were being written simultaneously so they could meet their deadlines.
So we had more than a few dangling plot threads, ignored character development, and sudden shifts in personality. And a few repeated character interactions/arcs.
Although I had heard that Anakin Solo was killed because of George Lucas. Once again I turn to wikipedia for their take on the matter.
...and it's nothing but plot summary.
What about the wookiepedia entry?
From the "behind the scenes" portion:
Character arc
During the planning stage of The New Jedi Order series, Anakin was to be the main hero who would eventually take up Luke's role as the leader of the Jedi Order. But the proposal was rejected by George Lucas, who felt that Anakin's trajectory followed his namesake's plotline in the prequels too closely; thus, creating confusion. As a result, the roles of Anakin and Jacen were reversed, which included the death later scheduled in Star by Star.[41][42]
The extent to which the character arcs of the Solo brothers were reversed is unknown. Michael A. Stackpole stated that he thought the decision to kill off Anakin was "a waste of character"[43] and that his characterization of Anakin when writing the Dark Tide duology was partly due to the fact that he was "hoping, hoping, hoping that maybe somebody would decide that [Anakin]'d get a reprieve."[43] In addition, the Knightfall Trilogy, starring Danni Quee, was cancelled (even after the first book, Jedi Storm, was finished) in favor of its replacement, the Edge of Victory duology, in which Anakin features prominently.
Prophecies
There are several prophecies about Anakin that never took place because of his death. In Dark Empire II, Luke had a vision of Anakin and his siblings leading the Jedi Order. Master Ikrit, too, told Anakin that there would be something great born in him and Tahiri. It remains a question whether the latter prophecy will be fulfilled in future storylines that might fill in the gaps.
Another quote from citation [42]:
"[George Lucas is] the one who said that the alien invaders could not be dark-side Force-users, that we couldn't kill Luke, that we had to kill Anakin instead of Jacen* (we originally had planned it the other way around)."
"His objection to Anakin Solo being the main series protagonist was, I think, possible confusion with Anakin Skywalker in the prequel trilogy of movies…Anakin was our first choice as the saga's hero, not Jacen. When George nixed that idea, we were forced to rethink everything very quickly, as the first book of the series was already being outlined."
—Shelly Shapiro and James Luceno from the "Star Wars: New Jedi Order Round-Robin Interview"
So Jacen was the big hero and the future of the jedi order, huh? Sounds reasonable. I wonder...how did that turn out?
Anyway, here are the links for citations [41], [42], and [43].
I don't think George Lucas has any significant involvement in the various novels and comics produced under the Star Wars license.
-He doesn't read them, or even consider them as taking place in HIS Star Wars universe.
So Jacen was the big hero and the future of the jedi order, huh? Sounds reasonable. I wonder...how did that turn out?
-The best thing to happen to Star Wars, barring his stupid death.
-Anyway, concerning R.A. Salvatore, I don't find him a better or worse author than anyone else. He scored when he created Drizzt, but I find it troubling:
A) That he continues to use Drizzt, causing the character to become very played out.
B) That he regularly ignores intrinsic properties of the setting, in lieu of writing better stories. As an author in a shared-world setting, it should be the opposite.
-He doesn't read them, or even consider them as taking place in HIS Star Wars universe.
Well he says stuff like that, but they've incorporated stuff from novels and comics, and even the RPGs into the movies too. I've heard this levelled as a criticism at Lucas, but I don't think it's fair. He doesn't have to let anybody play in his Star Wars sandbox, but he's pretty generous with it.
Well he says stuff like that, but they've incorporated stuff from novels and comics, and even the RPGs into the movies too. I've heard this levelled as a criticism at Lucas, but I don't think it's fair. He doesn't have to let anybody play in his Star Wars sandbox, but he's pretty generous with it.
-It's the notion that HIS is the pure version, while everyone else is "corrupting it", is what gets me. The Forgotten Realms, like Star Wars, is a shared world. What would it say about Ed Greenwood if he regularly said things like, "Well, what happened in Elaine Cunningham's novel didn't really happen in the TRUE version of the Forgotten Realms, because that's not how I wanted it, originally."? George Lucas has said things akin to this in the past. What does it say about him? Not very flattering things.
-If YOUR version is the only 'correct' version, and other people are "corrupting" the 'true' vision of Star Wars, you know what? Stop being greedy, and either do it all yourself, or stop subleasing the setting for novels, video games, comics, cartoons, and so on.
A) That he continues to use Drizzt, causing the character to become very played out.
Some of his plot elements feel rather repetitive, too, such as the "my friend died (but not really)" device.
Some of his plot elements feel rather repetitive, too, such as the "my friend died (but not really)" device.
-Bruenor has "died" at least twice- the first time, during the reclamation of Mithral Hall, with Shimmergloom, and the second time, more recently, during the Siege of Mithral Hall, by Obould Many-Arrows.
-Wulfgar literally died, but he's back, of course.
-That's a common trope in all literature, I guess, though, the "narrowly missed death". That there are so many Drizzt novels exacerbates it, I guess.
-Bruenor has "died" at least twice- the first time, during the reclamation of Mithral Hall, with Shimmergloom, and the second time, more recently, during the Siege of Mithral Hall, by Obould Many-Arrows.
-Wulfgar literally died, but he's back, of course.
-That's a common trope in all literature, I guess, though, the "narrowly missed death". That there are so many Drizzt novels exacerbates it, I guess.
I think so. As far as I recall, every single Companion of the Hall has been thought dead (or been on the brink of death) several times. The big kicker comes in the Hunter's Blade trilogy, in which Drizzt thinks all his friends are dead, and Drizzt's friends all think he's dead. And we get to read about all the misplaced grief on both sides ad nausem.
Would this be a good time for me to start talking about RotP some more?
Please do!
I always liked Salvatore. Read tons and tons of his work, not just Realms stuff but also independant things. I was a great fan of his work with Drow, and always liked Drizzt.
And then, the Sellswords Trilogy came.
I was so stoked. After reading Sellswords #1, I thought old Bob was at his best, ever. Then Sellswords #2 hit, was awesome, and my expectations skyrocketed for #3.
Road of the Patriarch turned out to be the worst Realms novel I have ever read. Randomness, inconsistency, and a plot that starts trying to tell a completly different story half way through the book, leaving the first story completly unfinished and unsatisfied. I would honestly rather read Wuthering Heights three times in a row than ever pick up RotP again.
How could Bob do this to me? After all my years of loyal fandom, how could he let me down so completly? I was lost, lost and adrift in a sea of pain and confusion. Truly, never has a man experienced such an existencial crisis derived from his reading of fantasy literature. Verily, the dramatic scenes and depressing backround music could make for a very heavy biopic.
/rant
No more Salvatore for me until my faith as a reader gets restored!
I have to say I wasn't quite so letdown with RotP, probably because I thought PotWK, well, stunk, to put it bluntly (most of that novel was just one, big, not-particularly-interesting "dungeon crawl" with very little actual plot). On top of that, I thought the side characters were pretty dull and not memorable--great characters can save a novel for me, but they weren't there.-It's the notion that HIS is the pure version, while everyone else is "corrupting it", is what gets me.
I don't think purity or corruption have anything to do with it; it's just not a comparable situation to the Forgotten Realms. Greenwood sold his rights to the FR, but Lucas owns Star Wars. It's his. Perhaps it's a little bothersome that he doesn't give expanded universe materials equal weight to his own ideas when making movies or whatever, but he's within his rights--and he seems to employee a staff of people whose job is to work out all the conflicts and make everything work together. If he was really such a bad guy, he wouldn't need to do any of that.
Everything I've read from the authors themselves say that Lucas' people are always generous and supportive. There are a lot of fair knocks against Lucas, but I don't think this is one of them.
Perhaps it's a little bothersome that he doesn't give expanded universe materials equal weight to his own ideas when making movies or whatever, but he's within his rights--and he seems to employee a staff of people whose job is to work out all the conflicts and make everything work together.
-And, again, if he doesn't like that things are tacked on, that don't mesh with how he envisions things, then he should either do them himself, to stay as true to his vision as possible (being as that only he knows what's in his head accurately), or don't license video games, comic books, novels, movies, cartoons, and everything else.
-I do not like the man, that is all.
-Even in the case where Ed Greenwood does not own the Forgotten Realms, ultimately, as it's creator, only he knows the direction that he wanted to take it in originally, just like only George Lucas knows the direction that he wanted to take Star Wars in, originally. I find Ed Greenwood is a much classier person, as opposed to George Lucas, who, again, I do not personally like.
-The best thing to happen to Star Wars, barring his stupid death.
Really? Darth Caedus was a great idea somehow?
We already got that story. Vader.
Really? Darth Caedus was a great idea somehow?
We already got that story. Vader.
-Certainly. The rise of Darth Caedus (and, unfortunately, his eventual fall) is certainly the best thing to have happened to the Star Wars Expanded Universe since...Probably since the Jedi Vs. Sith comics.
-It represented Star Wars transcending "stereotypical Star Wars" (ie, Some new alien race appears, Luke and Co. have problems dealing with it, a government or two might fall, everyone goes home happy at the end of the day.), or "goofy Star Wars" (ie, Waruu and the Crystal Star), something that doesn't happen too often.
-Certainly. The rise of Darth Caedus (and, unfortunately, his eventual fall) is certainly the best thing to have happened to the Star Wars Expanded Universe since...Probably since the Jedi Vs. Sith comics.
It could have been okay, but the plotting suffered at points and I had to deal with Troy Denning descriptive text to get through them. That didn't win them points. Furthermore, Caedus seemed to alternate between snivelingly pathetic and laughably EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEVIL with evil-sauce on top. It was obvious they were setting him up to be like the new Qui-Gon Jinn, mystic of the wilds, and instead they retold the anakin story I was already sick of.
The best thing to happen to star wars, especially the star wars EU, is the Star Wars: Legacy comic book followed closely by the two season of the clone wars animated shorts.
The best thing to happen to star wars, especially the star wars EU, is the Star Wars: Legacy comic book followed closely by the two season of the clone wars animated shorts.
-Both of which, I hate with a passion.
-Both of which, I hate with a passion.
Then you, sir, are not invited to my birthday party. Which will have not one, but two clowns.
Also, while I like the Legacy comics, I like the KOTOR comics better.
Well I don't know Lucas personally to judge his character. I'm just glad he provided lots of Star Wars stuff.
Also, while I like the Legacy comics, I like the KOTOR comics better.
Those are also very good.
Icewind Dale trilogy. Its just amazingly good
The Cleric Quintet: Very well written, and it basically follows how this monk goes from basically a neophyte to master.
Of the Dark Elf trilogy, I like book in which he is mostly alone in the underdark with little for companionship other than his trusted panther. Thats an amazing book by any measure. The other 2 books are still very good though.
Vector Prime was interesting, but didn't really care the direction the Star Wars univers went. I read the entire series (almost 20 books) front to back in about 9 months. Needless to say, I'd only reccommend these three books:
A. Vector Prime
B. Star by Star
C. Unifying Force.
That basically coveres the beginning, middle, and end of the series. There are a couple other notable books in the series, but overall, you can get the ghist of the story with those book I mentioned.
I'ver read just about every Drizzt novel he wrote cept maybe the last couple.
:invasion:
At this point I would much prefer reading about Artemis as an anti-hero or I would really wish to see Jarx get his own trilogy.
Plus can we stay on topic.
Like Lucas (and I'll leave it at that to prevent derailment), he has somewhat disenfranchised his original fan base and seems to have compromised his artistic vision greatly. You can only grind out so many books before it begins to show that, being the flagship of their novel branch, well, eventually it becomes dilluted and stagnant, lacking in much originality. That's a fancy way of saying he lost his edge and the same old thematic elements, same cliches, same overall plots are recurring again and again.
That, and he's a niche writer. Most fantasy writers are. Fantasy, in this case as w/ most FR books, are in the same calibre as trash romance novels. Fairly open and shut. Most are all pretty much the same overall per the genre. That is to say, if he were to branch out and get his feet wet in other spheres of influence, it might grant him more insight and inspiration to the tried and true (fanatasy), but it would appear he is content adding another knotch and signing all those checks rather than create something even remotely different/insightful.
The Cleric Quintet: Very well written, and it basically follows how this monk goes from basically a neophyte to master.
Cleric actually (well, and a monk, but she's not the main character). As for myself, I thought the CQ series was pretty, well, "bleh", actually. Not the worst books I've ever read, I guess, but not very good either.
I distinctly recall In Sylvan Shadows being almost entirely combat with very little interesting dialogue or character development.
At this point I would much prefer reading about Artemis as an anti-hero or I would really wish to see Jarx get his own trilogy.
Did you read the Sellswords series? That fits your first wish, and sorta kinda fits the second one.
Fan? Not anymore. Icewind Dale, Dark Elf, and bla bla bla. Read most of all the text he's put out. Best thing I've seen of late is the graphic novelization of said triologies from Devil's Due Publishing. The new(er) text itself leaves much to be desired and woudl take pages of elaboration to explain.
You mean the text from the graphic novels?
I liked that they took their best selling author and lent him out to a comic company. Good PR and tt's smart business too; likely to generate more sales for the novels themselves and promote other goodies as well. Pop culture geeks and gamers are birds of a feather, you know?
How many Star Wars graphic novels do you think they sold to kids that loved the films and the books proper? They sell themselves really...like crack ;) .
Anyway, not saying Salvatore is washed up, but I think he coudl use a jolt of inspiration to foster something fresh, new, relevant. But I don't have the inside track. He could simply be under heavy suggestion from WotC to keep grinding out "what has previously worked and gotten them $", so his hands could be tied somewhat. He's marketable and they are a business afterall.
No, I mean the whole gestalt.
Hmm, could you elaborate? Sorry, I'm just not sure I'm following you.
As for the graphic novels--I've pored through some of them, and not only are they well illustrated, I think I like the pared down text. For one thing, as I've said before, I think RAS is really just an average writer at best (so I don't think I'm missing anything when I read an "abridged" version). It's also nice to just be able to see the characters fighting instead of reading, "Drizzt pivoted to the left, then put his right sword over his opponent's left shoulder, blah blah blah..."
I like that drizzt guy who I played in the menzoberranzan PC game. Although I admit that I modded his stats and changed him to a cleric/mage/ranger. I hex edited that game so much.
Man, that was my all time favorite pc game. i played it for three days straight. awesome.
So I stay on topic..
I liked the first nine books in the Drizzt story line a lot. from the Dark Elf Trilogy, Icewindale Trilogy, and the next three. After that, I found the material to be predictable somewhat.
The Clone Wars cartoon movie was cute too. Lots of action, lots of comedy... a ton of people hate on Anakin's padawan and I can see why, but making Star Wars appealing to a new generation of kids isn't something I'm ultimately opposed to.
Also, loved the fact that the film referred to a lot of expanded universe stuff. For instance, Jabba's uncle Ziro changed his sex in one of the novels in order to give birth, and when he changed back he was a little... well, gay (not there's anything wrong with that, lol). That's why Jabba had all the slave girls; after watching his uncle go through the sex change, he came to appreciate being male all the more.
Ziro the Hutt is in the movie and he has a lisp and a long feather sticking out of his hat. That's some funny sh*t, I don't care what planet your from.
Anyone see the show on Cartoon Network yet? I work too much and need to convince my roommates to invest in a Tivo box of some sort.
Anyone see the show on Cartoon Network yet? I work too much and need to convince my roommates to invest in a Tivo box of some sort.
-I saw about five minutes of an episode...Apparently, the Seperatists shot down Plo Koon, and he and a bunch of other Clone Troopers had to survive in their escape pod while being hunted by Vulture Droids. I left it on for about five minutes, then changed it, shaking my head in a combination of disgust, sadness, and anger.
So... are you a fan?
yes. Yes I am
Anyone see the show on Cartoon Network yet?
Yeah. Its pretty good. I give it a solid B- which makes it better than most of whats on TV.
So... are you a fan?
Yes, I still am. I'm currently reading The Pirate King.
Anyone see the show on Cartoon Network yet?
Yes. I'd rather stick to watching Wolverine and the X-Men (although some of the voices can get irritating).