and another large part of Forgotten Realms Lore dies:
I flipped to the end so i can tell you some spoilers but there is probably more to tell:
Eilistraee dies.
And just to be sure, she was killed by the Cresent Blade, so she can't come back. To quote the novel: "All part of the plan,"(...)"There is no further need for Eilistraee." So another goddess falls fictim the the WoW-RPG-Rippoff, formerly know as DnD 4ed...
Qilue dies.
And just to be sure, her soul was destroyed as well, so she can't come back. To once again quote the novel: "Dead! Forever Dead!"
Somehow you get the feeling, that those quotes come directly from the mouths of the people who are currently dismanteling the Setting for FR 4ed and still try to convince us that they are doing it because they love the setting. Should have stopped reading after Myth Drannor was freed by the Elven Crusade, the last event that actually made sense.
Halisstra dies.
After she killed Eilistraee and Qilue (who happend to share a body at the moment) with one stroke of the Cresent Blade. Unforgiven by Eilistraee as she had killed her goddess before she asked for forgivness one last time.
'The Plan' Eilistraee followed and sacrificed herself and her High-Priestress for:
Transformation of all 'willing' drow into 'dark elves'. At least Cavatina's spirit (she also dies) looks like a brown-skinned elf with black hair and Brown eyes. no good drow anymore, only good dark elves.
And and the 'unwilling' are cast down, so there will be no Redeemer for all the little drow born from now on...
For once Corellon shows up at the End...moments after Eilistraee died and almost cheerfully takes up the game for the souls of the dark elves...instead of ripping Lloth appart for killing their children...or showing up before his daughter dies...
Although it's good that Lloth doesn't end up as the winner of this game, I can't say that I'm satisfied by the novel and it's solution.
You might say I'm more than a little bit angry that WotC is butchering the FR-Setting again for the sake of 'Easy access for new Gamers' (Can't those New-Gamer guys and girls just pick up a campaign-setting an start slowly like I did some years ago?).If FR4ed continues this way I'm glad there will only be three books labeld FR in the new DnD line. Less material I'll have to ignore.
Eilistraee was my favorite goddess in the setting and seeing her die like this is just sad.
Best wishes
Lirdolin
I don't know how Ed can stand all this. They are his characters, part of his life. If mere readers can't stand this I can't believe he does. He should be publicly denouncing WotC for destroying the realms and everything he spent decades creating.
-SBLOCK next time, please. I had enough time to read that first sentence before scrolling down.
-**** I accidentally clicked on this thread.
-SBLOCK next time, please. I had enough time to read that first sentence before scrolling down.
You might have accidentally clicked that one as well. ;)
'Heavy Spoiler thread' is a fair warning, but i colored the Spoilers in white now.
Best wishes
Lirdolin
You might have accidentally clicked that one as well. ;)
-It takes a true idiot to not only accidentally click on this thread, when they wanted the one above it, and, noticing the title, also click on the SBLOCK button.
-The worst is done, though. I read the ultimate outcome. Though, I did not glance the means in which the outcome was achieved. That much is good.
I think this is why I enjoy running Eberron so much because the gods are not "characters" to me they are unkown mystical beings that may or may not exist. A player could worship anything or anyone they wanted to and I would not be bothered but in the Realms it would irk me.
Anyway I was not fond of the goodly DE goddess. I always felt they should have had another elf goddess take the good drow or at least another nonevil, nonelf god. Vaerun dying bothered me more than this, but not by much because he really just seemed like a Mask clone for DEs. Loths son had potential for many male drow I felt.
On a side note nobody is dead forever in Fantasy or Comics just to let you know. This could be all some elaborate plan blah blah blah...
Hardly surprising... not sure why it would be all things considered.
It's not the result, it's the way. They treated Elistraee as bad as Mystra on that one.
@Rauric: For me it's one of the settings most important aspects. I don't enjoy reading about something that doesn't moves me at all. It's a failure if a main character dies without moving any feeling (be it joy or hate or sorrow). A story's job is to make people feel something. Otherwise is just a nice mix of words.
Anyway I was not fond of the goodly DE goddess. I always felt they should have had another elf goddess take the good drow or at least another nonevil, nonelf god.
I always thought Selune would be a good option
On a side note nobody is dead forever in Fantasy or Comics just to let you know. This could be all some elaborate plan blah blah blah...
Even if its not some plan, they could just change their minds in a year and bring 'em back. Like Bane
If FR4ed continues this way I'm glad there will only be three books labeld FR in the new DnD line. Less material I'll have to ignore.
good point
I never liked goodie-goodie Eilistraee, and always believed a deity from the Elven Pantheon could have taken up that role as it would have made more sense.
-Eilistraee is/was from the Seldarine.
I always thought Selune would be a good option
Even if its not some plan, they could just change their minds in a year and bring 'em back. Like Bane
I was thinking Selune as well with the whole moon deal. Not sure why though but it felt right.
If they did it with Bane then anyone can come back. In my mind Lira will come back at some point as well. Goddess of Illusion anyone? Isn't faking your death the best illusion of all? :D
I realize that, but she was in the Drow Pantheon and almost, if not entirely, worshiped by Drow. That made no sense considering the culture of the Drow and the unlikelihood of any priest of Eilistraee existing in Drow Society without being caught. I would have just dumped the portfolio of redemption into the lap of Sehanine Moonbow and called it a day. The way Eilistraee was designed made her improbable at best and unworkable at worst, unless you had a Drow that fled their culture and society entirely. Ala Drizzt... who worships a Human Deity.
-She is also in the Seldarine. Deities can be in multiple pantheons at once. Gond, for example. He's a Gnomish deity and a Human deity at the same time.
And Sehanine's role was never of redemption. She is the caretaker of the dead, the moon and the mysteries of the Tel'Quessir.
Erm... she's listed in the Drow Pantheon in both 2e and 3e as far as I'm aware, not the Faerunian...
Eilistraee's main entry in F&P is in the Faerûnian Pantheon, just like Lolth.
I was always under the impression her entry was up front with the more 'popular' deities, and it wasn't a representation of what pantheon they were in. And I don't think one could say that Lolth wasn't in the Drow pantheon...
Thats how I viewed the set up of that book
I was always under the impression her entry was up front with the more 'popular' deities, and it wasn't a representation of what pantheon they were in. And I don't think one could say that Lolth wasn't in the Drow pantheon...
The fact is that both Lolth and Eilistraee were worshipped by many different races.
The fact is that both Lolth and Eilistraee were worshipped by many different races.
I agree with that. But I always viewed both as being part of the drow pantheon
WotC has killed in 3 novels decades of work to make drow something more than monsters.
So I wonder whats going to happen to the Promande...oh its going to be apart of the big 4e slaughter fest again for Undermountain. 
This sucks hard.
18D
-Eilistraee is/was from the Seldarine.
Exactly
She volunteered to change along with the drow so she could be a beacon to them. Corellon actually had forgiven her.Remind yourself too that whatever the novel says, there is written lore which allows any priest or worshipper of those slain to access the divine power still.
Remind yourself tooo that there will be more lore yet unwritten and more novels out and about in months and years to come and who knows what they will change of canon.
Perhaps, but I for one will not likely continue with FR in any capacity once I finish this book. I will continue to develop FR for my players on my own or with the assistance of a Pre-Plague community that elects to write lore independent of WotC.
Shameless promotion :D
http://www.forgottenrealmsvault.com
Shameless promotion :D
http://www.forgottenrealmsvault.com
Thanks for that, saved me time searching for it
Remind yourself that whatever is said in canon - even though how hard it is to take - does not need to have any relevance in your Realms nor will it have relevance in the Realms pre-LP.
This is true, however it wasn't make watching the mutilation any easier.
And yet another blow to the dying Realms in the name of the whiners.
So, the book arrived today (at least here in Germany)...
Somehow you get the feeling, that those quotes come directly from the mouths of the people who are currently dismanteling the Setting for FR 4ed...
I hate to say it, but I feel the same way.
This is yet another example of things I like about the setting being killed off, quite literally. Even if WotC absolutely HAD to kill Mystra to make the setting work with 4E (and I'm not saying I think they did), did they really have to do this as well?
Good thing I'm pretty much past the point of caring--I decided a while back I would not consider this trilogy (among many other "newer" novels) to be "canon" for my Realms.
I'm only going to say one thing, It's my most profund wish that WotC goes bankrupt and stops corrupting the RPG industry.
I don't know how Ed can stand all this. They are his characters, part of his life. If mere readers can't stand this I can't believe he does. He should be publicly denouncing WotC for destroying the realms and everything he spent decades creating.
I don't agree with that--Ed is a consummate professional who does not badmouth people (even if they might deserve it). And of course, he doesn't own the FR setting, even though he created it.
As for the question, "How can Ed stand it?" in the emotional sense? I have to admit I sometimes wonder about that myself.
On a side note nobody is dead forever in Fantasy or Comics just to let you know. This could be all some elaborate plan blah blah blah...
A good point, but I'm not gonna hold my breath, if you know what I mean.
It's not the result, it's the way.
In this case I hate the result as well.
I realize that, but she was in the Drow Pantheon and almost, if not entirely, worshiped by Drow. That made no sense considering the culture of the Drow and the unlikelihood of any priest of Eilistraee existing in Drow Society without being caught. I would have just dumped the portfolio of redemption into the lap of Sehanine Moonbow and called it a day. The way Eilistraee was designed made her improbable at best and unworkable at worst, unless you had a Drow that fled their culture and society entirely. Ala Drizzt... who worships a Human Deity.
Ed has explained on CK that Eilistraee makes herself known to many drow thanks to dream visions, regardless of their culture.
We knew this was going to happen. Drow of the Underdark flat out said that Loth was the only Drow Diety. This is even some what close to what I envisioned happening (I predicted that Eilustree would some how sacrifice herself in such a way as to win the Drow a chance at redemption). Now they have pretty much taken out all that has made the Drow of Faerun distinctive from the core ones. Which is in line with thier theme for 4.0. Uniformity. No flavor or uniqueness. All settings must be equally bland.
-One Core To Rule Them All!
But their is some hope...Its called Golarion!!! :D -So will the non-corupted Drow, oh I mean "Dark Elves" be an off shoot of The 4E Elves, Eladrin, or Drow?
18D
-One Core To Rule Them All!
-A very bad idea, if I don't say so myself.
--So will the non-corupted Drow, oh I mean "Dark Elves" be an off shoot of The 4E Elves, Eladrin, or Drow?
-Wait, wait, what!? I haven't read most of the spoiler, or the novel (obvously), but non-transformed Dark Elves? Those would be Fhaornquessir, the Sharn.
-You know what...Don't answer. Never mind...
-A very bad idea, if I don't say so myself.
-Wait, wait, what!? I haven't read most of the spoiler, or the novel (obvously), but non-transformed Dark Elves? Those would be Fhaornquessir, the Sharn.
-You know what...Don't answer. Never mind...
-Did your lore get messed up again? Nothing is sacred in 4e when it comes to prior edition lore, NOTHING!
18D
-Did your lore get messed up again? Nothing is sacred in 4e when it comes to prior edition lore, NOTHING!
18D
-I'm not going to ask again...I don't want to know...But...
-Are the 4e people purposely trying to maybe not make me like the 4e Realms, or something?
-I also realized that the 4e realms is all about the new designers that are too lazy to learn the FR LORE, by reading and posting on this thread.
I know lazy is a harsh word, but I believe its true. Hopefully Ed and Brian can salvage something from this mess that is the 4E Realms.18D
-I was just over at Paizo and I saw where Eric Mona said that he played in Monte Cook's Pholtus(sp) game for 8 years. Monte's Pholtus game was the original 3e playtest world right? [/b]
I believe that is true yes.
When absolutely everyone in society is looking for weaknesses in others, being of good alignment in such a society is such a huge weakness, that if it did not get you killed outright would certainly ensure your ultimate demise. This virtually ensures that any Drow that wishes to be Chaotic Good and worship Eilistraee must, by necessity, flee Drow Society. This then puts them at risk of other dangers in the Underdark decreasing their chances of surviving and making it to the surface or some Eilistraee safe-haven.
Whereas many of the aforementioned deities can pretend to openly worship Lolth while keeping their own religious affiliations hidden, a follower of Eilistraee is virtually prohibited from doing that due to alignment reasons. Sacrifice your newly born child to Lolth? Um, no. That's evil.
If you look at it from a big picture point of view, virtually every Drow child is evil by adolescence, due to the acts they've had to perform to ensure their own survival. Therefore, if Eilistraee wanted to find like-minded Drow, she'd be targeting children, before they've been culturally indoctrinated, which of course only decreases their chances of survival.
Thus, any Eilistraee worshiping Drow would be virtually non-existent in a Lolth worshiping Society. The Goddess over all would be irrelevant. However, a Chaotic Neutral Goddess such as the Masked Lady, dedicated to much the same ideals but without the moral hang-ups of being good would find it much easier to lure Drow away from Lolth, especially if she embraced the concept of stealth and subtlety as a hybrid of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun would. This would increase her chances of success exponentially... which is basically what I was trying to point out.
it does tick me off.
lowering the amount of gods was always a bad idea.
you plan on gaining new players wotc, do be warned, if all you get equals to what you loose in the process , is nothing. no profits no loss
but i guess i can change my current non evil drow, into dark elves now, not that they ever kissed spiders or danced nude in the pale moonlight.
one harps and the other travels
prepost gripe about livingFR going to reek comment removed
while im not surprised
it does tick me off.
lowering the amount of gods was always a bad idea.
and absolutely unnecessary despite what they say
and absolutely unnecessary despite what they say
QFT becuase if its worth saying, its worth saying twice.
unnecessary
Second, they kept the drow as their very own evil nasty Lolth-loving (MM) bunch, but also created the "dark elves"* for all those (young male) gamers fascinated with the scimitar-wielder. It won't take long till the surfacers adversity to those branch will shift somewhat and "dark elves" will become a true player race. "I see trees of green, red roses too ..."
*There will be one nice mix-up coming "our" way when people read the "Older" drow novels, be them Drizzt stuff, Liriel stuff, WotSQ or LP ... where drow are still referred to synonymously referred to as dark elves and drow.
-Since the start of the first book it was made clear that in the end there would be only one god of drow - and despite what many wished for - in the back of our head we knew that Lolth would not die. I came to the FR thorugh a friend who liked the Drizzt novels and gave me some to read. Lolth sits at very center of drow society in that even the good drow defined themselves party by fighting agains her.
-After the second book, my bet would have been for a draw between the two but I guess that´s not a satisfactory option if you promise "only one will survive" . I have to read the book first, but I think it is kind of a draw -a after all Lolth lost big time too.
-As a rather nice sidenote all the Sharn unwilling to change back and become drow now can become dark elfs - isn´t it exiting!
-I am not shure what I would have answered if someone had asked me "Would Eilistraee sacrifice herself to redeem the drow?" Well now we know that she was quite willingto risk it, participating in the game as a start.
-If I understand it correctly (still have to read the book) Lolth was spinning her little web and in the end managed to get her doughter killed, but Eilistraee was sacrificing herself (a move Lolth hasn´t the mindset to understand) - and as far as ways to kill her go (after all we should have seen this one comming since the first pages of the first book) it´s quite a fitting death for a hero.
-The clergy of Eilistraee may wane in time (if I understand Rich corrently though her clerics will keep the powers they were given till they die, but you get a whole race of sexy ;) dark skinned drow light who ow their Redemption to the sacrifice of a goddes. This gives players a way to play drow without having to face the stigma associated with a race of murderous bastards - which may be a good thing after all.
-It would be nice to immagine that a part of Eilistraee fath will seep into the culture of the new race, so we will see many "not quite so" dark skinned half naked warriors with hairs to theiry scantly covered butts, wielding big swords and raining moonfire upon their enemies - many of them beeing drow since loth sees these betrayers as a greater enemies than the surface elves.
-One big question is - how will this change drizzt? Will he stay a good drow or change? I doubt that he will change - (maybe he wasn´t offered redemption since he has no need for it ....)
-So will the non-corupted Drow, oh I mean "Dark Elves" be an off shoot of The 4E Elves, Eladrin, or Drow?
18D
I was thinking--what will this bit of canon mean for Drizzt?
Show
That is, is HIS appearance changing? I wonder how that would go over with his fans. Probably not well.
Show'The Plan' Eilistraee followed and sacrificed herself and her High-Priestress for:
Transformation of all 'willing' drow into 'dark elves'. At least Cavatina's spirit (she also dies) looks like a brown-skinned elf with black hair and Brown eyes. no good drow anymore, only good dark elves.
And and the 'unwilling' are cast down, so there will be no Redeemer for all the little drow born from now on...
For once Corellon shows up at the End...moments after Eilistraee died and almost cheerfully takes up the game for the souls of the dark elves...instead of ripping Lloth appart for killing their children...or showing up before his daughter dies...
-I'm not going to ask again...I don't want to know...
Probably not.
-Are the 4e people purposely trying to maybe not make me like the 4e Realms, or something?
That's what it feels like sometimes, doesn't it? I know logically that wouldn't be their specific intent, though...
Hopefully Ed and Brian can salvage something from this mess that is the 4E Realms.
I'm a big fan of Ed, but there are some things even he can't do to my satisfaction. That is why you haven't heard be say, "I'll give the 4E Realms a shot because Ed is writing some stuff for it."
I'm intertested in seeing what Ed will write for the 4E FR setting, but only insofar that it would give me ideas, not because I have any belief that it might "redeem" the setting for me.
However, a Chaotic Neutral Goddess such as the Masked Lady, dedicated to much the same ideals but without the moral hang-ups of being good would find it much easier to lure Drow away from Lolth, especially if she embraced the concept of stealth and subtlety as a hybrid of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun would. This would increase her chances of success exponentially... which is basically what I was trying to point out.
Fair enough.
Show-I am not shure what I would have answered if someone had asked me "Would Eilistraee sacrifice herself to redeem the drow?" Well now we know that she was quite willingto risk it, participating in the game as a start.
-If I understand it correctly (still have to read the book) Lolth was spinning her little web and in the end managed to get her doughter killed, but Eilistraee was sacrificing herself (a move Lolth hasn´t the mindset to understand) - and as far as ways to kill her go (after all we should have seen this one comming since the first pages of the first book) it´s quite a fitting death for a hero.
That's what it feels like sometimes, doesn't it? I know logically that wouldn't be their specific intent, though...
-I know, I know...
That's what it feels like sometimes, doesn't it? I know logically that wouldn't be their specific intent, though...
That IS our specific intent. This is a war, goddamit. I won't rest until all of FR - past, present, future - is nothing but shadow magic, Shar, and the dead, mutilated bodies of elves and their gods (that are actually human deities in disguise). Oh and the Chosen - dead Chosen. And change for change's sake, naturally.
That IS our specific intent. This is a war, goddamit. I won't rest until all of FR - past, present, future - is nothing but shadow magic, Shar, and the dead, mutilated bodies of elves and their gods (that are actually human deities in disguise). Oh and the Chosen - dead Chosen. And change for change's sake, naturally.
-You, sir, are the most vile of fiends. By channeling the power of the mighty Retcon, you deal with forces you do not understand. I implore you, stop while you still can!
We intend to rewrite Ed's personal notes.
This isn't simple retcon, Lord Karsus.
We intend to rewrite Ed's personal notes.
-Well, in that case, carry on.
-But, anyway...Back to the book...
That IS our specific intent. This is a war, goddamit. I won't rest until all of FR - past, present, future - is nothing but shadow magic, Shar, and the dead, mutilated bodies of elves and their gods (that are actually human deities in disguise). Oh and the Chosen - dead Chosen. And change for change's sake, naturally.
Knock it off. You aren't that funny.
Knock it off.
Knock it off. You aren't that funny.
I've been propositioning another deity merge to WotC's FR team: Sune becomes Shar. I mean, it's just a three letter change - no one except the oldtimers will notice that (and they're already fired as customers).
I'm only going to say one thing, It's my most profund wish that WotC goes bankrupt and stops corrupting the RPG industry.
I understand that you are emotional, but wishing the leading RPG maker to fail is rather short-sighted.
nuff said. didnt like the war of the spidderqueen series myself, so i didnt plan on buying the sequal series either.
so i do thank the OP for spoiling the end for me, you saved me the trouble of looking in the back of the book myself.
I don´t know, sometimes I think somebody casted Mass Insanity in the WotC offices.
ShowI personally find this idea of redemption a bit lame. If a drow happens to be good-hearted, then they are good. They don't need to be "redeemed" in any moral sense of the word. A change of appearance is supposed to be a stand-in for redemption? I think that trivalizes the meaning of the word.
I thought Cavatina's conflict with Wodenai (where she shouts "I am redeemed!") was also lacking in any real meaning. Simply deciding that you are redeemed doesn't mean you are.
That IS our specific intent. This is a war, goddamit. I won't rest until all of FR - past, present, future - is nothing but shadow magic, Shar, and the dead, mutilated bodies of elves and their gods (that are actually human deities in disguise). Oh and the Chosen - dead Chosen. And change for change's sake, naturally.
As the Highest Priest of Consistency I force you to back up fiend. Go back to hell and never return to this holy place!!!!!!!!!!!!
Good job, WotC. Kill more of the flavor that (I felt) was unique to the Realms. Sure we even need a list of FR deities anymore? We could just use what's in the PHB.
I mean, really...we can't have anything too different. Right?
Thanks for the spoiler, OP. $7 I can spend on something else.
*walks on out*
*looks around after months of not posting a single thing...reads through the thread*
Good job, WotC. Kill more of the flavor that (I felt) was unique to the Realms. Sure we even need a list of FR deities anymore? We could just use what's in the PHB.
I mean, really...we can't have anything too different. Right?
Thanks for the spoiler, OP. $7 I can spend on something else.
*walks on out*
Word on the money...
I don't agree with that--Ed is a consummate professional who does not badmouth people (even if they might deserve it). And of course, he doesn't own the FR setting, even though he created it.
As for the question, "How can Ed stand it?" in the emotional sense? I have to admit I sometimes wonder about that myself.
What's to say Ed is not still creating a FR existance somewhere? I think WotC is destrying the Realms on purpose because of Ed's success with it. So why wouldn't Ed bring it back anew?;)
Just my
What's to say Ed is not still creating a FR existance somewhere?
Can you clarify what you mean by that?
Bear in mind that Ed does not own the FR setting--only WotC does. Ed undeniably has influence over the setting, but no creative control over it.
What's to say Ed is not still creating a FR existance somewhere?
-He is currently in the employ of WotC to write about the 4e Forgotten Realms. Supposedly, something like 10,000 words, or 30,000 words...Something to that effect.
30k I think it was... anyone else half-tempted to count them to see how much was cut by some editor? :D
-There's the rub.
-He is currently in the employ of WotC to write about the 4e Forgotten Realms. Supposedly, something like 10,000 words, or 30,000 words...Something to that effect.
its 50,000
its 50,000
If it's that then I say 40k words the editors will cut.
If it's that then I say 40k words the editors will cut.
God forbid you'd actually LIKE anything in the FRCG!
Thats Chris Perkins confirming the 50,000
God forbid you'd actually LIKE anything in the FRCG!
Actually is Mystra and Eilistraee and Helm and everything WotC destroyed in place of God.
If so - good grief!
Guess we'll find out... wouldn't surprise me though if they were. Makes quite a bit of sense really, considering the directions of things of late.
Nay! For that would imply that there are directions in the first place ...
50k words... better than 30k, but I still wonder how much will end up on the cutting room floor, so to speak. Though by the by, I have no idea what you just said there Alediran... doesn't parse too well.
and with 200/page ill be surprised if more than 5000 get thru editing.
Which is still a mighty 25 pages.
Tomorrow June 3rd.
-Oh...Well, I needed to go to the bookstore, anyway...
Show
Didn't Corellon even feel a bit of pity over his daughter?
Is the last he, Lloth or Ghaunadaur?
I'm imposssibly sorry Halisstra is dead... never cared too much for Qilue do-gooder or her goddess...
Is the last he, Lloth or Ghaunadaur?
I'm imposssibly sorry Halisstra is dead...
never cared too much for Qilue do-gooder or her goddess...We knew this was going to happen. Drow of the Underdark flat out said that Loth was the only Drow Diety. This is even some what close to what I envisioned happening (I predicted that Eilustree would some how sacrifice herself in such a way as to win the Drow a chance at redemption). Now they have pretty much taken out all that has made the Drow of Faerun distinctive from the core ones. Which is in line with thier theme for 4.0. Uniformity. No flavor or uniqueness. All settings must be equally bland.
Indeed. It just like when Dan shot Keith in One Tree Hill my GF(?) was like "they can't kill Keith" and I told her "Well Dan can't go to jail cuz he's too good of a antagonist so Keith is going to die"...
Nay! For that would imply that there are directions in the first place ...
Note that I pluralized direction there... just because they don't make sense as a whole doesn't mean they aren't there. :D
Hopefully its a good story if not I will be 
18D :P
-I did flip to the last page and read the last paragraph.
18D :P
-Don't do that!!
Well, this is upsetting.
My favorite goddess... The very one who first made me interested in the Forgotten Realms, gone. And then Qilue's very soul is destroyed. Insult to injury, sheesh.
I can't say I'm surprised though.
Yeah, thats it. I've decided. 4E isn't for me.
Now, wasn't someone saying that they're continuing the Realms with 3.5?
Now, wasn't someone saying that they're continuing the Realms with 3.5?
www.forgottenrealmsvault.com
I don't understand what the whining is about. True it feels like the are constricting Ed Greenwood. True that there so many changes, which of many we don't like. Although still imagine if the we would play before Netheril crashed to the ground and the first Mystryl dies. How many would have liked that? Destroying a whole civilisation? Death of a god? Oh and didn't good things come from that aswell? Ascension of a new Mystra?
Really if you wanna boycot 4th edition do so, but for the love of god, stop whining. Either don't play it, or don't change these relams and create your own.
Jeesh ppl.....
Although still imagine if the we would play before Netheril crashed to the ground and the first Mystryl dies. How many would have liked that? Destroying a whole civilisation? Death of a god? Oh and didn't good things come from that aswell? Ascension of a new Mystra?
-But, we didn't, which is why people are so blase about said events. The Black Plague killed 1/3 of Europe thousands of years ago. You read that in a history book, acknowledge it, and shrug. Now, image if the Black Plague killed 1/3 of Europe next year. See how you'd react differently? Same here.
Really if you wanna boycot 4th edition do so, but for the love of god, stop whining. Either don't play it, or don't change these relams and create your own.
Jeesh ppl.....
-Everyone is allowed to express their own opinions, so long as they are within the bounds of the CoC.
But, all this proves is that the Forgotten Realms isn't dead.
WIZARDS is dead.
Really, I will never buy any Forgotten Realms Material again.
They have brokered the characters of the Forgotten Realms, bastardized their customer base, and reduced my love of the Forgotten Realms to bitter ashes through naked self interest and callous cash payment.
Uh, Delta, that's...
One core to RUIN them all.
I don't have any problems with the mechanics.
It's the LORE that has me all volcanic.
...
And then Qilue's very soul is destroyed. Insult to injury, sheesh.
Yes, it certainly feels that way.
The only thing i want to point out, is ppl are now activly looking out to burn stuff down. Just basicly because the are afraid of change, there is no other explainastion. And that is only human, that i can't hold against you. What i do hold against you is doing activly burning it down, its like the dark ages witch hunts. Trying to kill off, in your superstition and things you don't understand(as of yet) I will promise you most of you will pick up 4th edition in way or the other, so please quit fooling yourself :P
Just my 2 cents
Really if you wanna boycot 4th edition do so, but for the love of god, stop whining. Either don't play it, or don't change these relams and create your own.
This is a public messageboard, where people are free to state their opinions about the Forgotten Realms.
If you can't deal with that, YOU are free to go elsewhere.
And that is only human, that i can't hold against you. What i do hold against you is doing activly burning it down, its like the dark ages witch hunts. Trying to kill off, in your superstition and things you don't understand(as of yet) I will promise you most of you will pick up 4th edition in way or the other, so please quit fooling yourself :P
Oh my God.
You're actually comparing complaining about changes in a fictional setting to witch hunts, which killed innocent people?
I think that is egregriously offensive.
Again it was not my intent, to burn ppl down. And I can't understand where the hate against me is coming from. I am just giving MY opinion.....
So what? That doesn't put you above criticism, especially when you say something stupid like you just did.
Also my post wasn't directed at people who are jjust blatant about the changes it is directed at people stating the will actively boycot 4th edition and will never buy any 4th stuff ever.
I don't care. You just trivialized the deaths of innocent people (people killed in witch hunts) in a clumsy attempt at making a point. What you said was offensive on many levels.
This is heading off topic (and I don't want that), but in any case I am done speaking to you.
They have brokered the characters of the Forgotten Realms, bastardized their customer base, and reduced my love of the Forgotten Realms to bitter ashes through naked self interest and callous cash payment.
Theres still 2 months before the books come out. Maybe we should quickly compile a list of things we like that are still there so WotC can ensure none of it survives by accident?
I'm a particular fan near the end of the book, where two drow die (And conveniently, the names of the two elude me) and they are sent to the After, and hear a feminine chuckle, then the masculine chuckle. Haha, Vhaereun seems to still be around in some form it seems.
Ah well, worlds change.
Qilue dies.
And just to be sure, her soul was destroyed as well, so she can't come back. To once again quote the novel: "Dead! Forever Dead!"
*dances* Finally something done right!
Saying that we should not buy 4th edition is not critism, and I think ur going a bit farfetched with that witch thing mate
You think that someone calling you out for your really loathsome comments is "farfetched"? Let's just look at exactly what you said, and why people are responding the way they are.
(...)
The only thing i want to point out, is ppl are now activly looking out to burn stuff down. Just basicly because the are afraid of change, there is no other explainastion. And that is only human, that i can't hold against you. What i do hold against you is doing activly burning it down, its like the dark ages witch hunts. Trying to kill off, in your superstition and things you don't understand(as of yet) I will promise you most of you will pick up 4th edition in way or the other, so please quit fooling yourself :P
Just my 2 cents
So in a nutshell:
- you're saying that negative comments on 4E are due to "fear of change and no other 'explainastion'...", which is not only insulting but it's flat-out wrong. People have discussed their reasons (most are well-reasoned and non-inflammatory, but none are devoid of emotion) why they're against 4E.
- you're comparing complaints made against a game to the actual dark age witch hunts where many innocent people were hunted down and killed. This would actually qualify for your "farfetched" comment, but you're the one making it.
- you say people are being superstitious, that it's derived from ignorance, and suggest that most negative people will end up being hypocrites and buy the game anyway. Do you understand how even -one- of those comments alone is insulting? Good grief. It's like you're going for the record on snotty things to say in one post.
Do you understand now about the reaction you're getting? Don't throw random flames. Say your piece, but don't make completely unfounded insults against a group of people who have largely been reasoned and thoughtful, even if you disagree.
Also my post wasn't directed at people who are jjust blatant about the changes it is directed at people stating the will actively boycot 4th edition and will never buy any 4th stuff ever.
Please. Stop it. You are are basically doing everything to make me want to flame you. Bad spelling, the ridiculous "If you don´t like it, shut up!" argument, making bad assumptions about what we will or not do and badmouthing Rinonalyrna.
I´m very upset at the moment because of things happening in the FR and to a lesser extent how 4E has panned out, and you are putting up a big "I need every square inch of my ass kicked" sign.
Arrrggghh... Must. Stop. Typing. Caustic. Remarks.
*dances* Finally something done right!
Troll.
Anyway I prodered the 4th edition PHB, DMG, and the MM from my local gaming store. This is the last books I will buy from WotC till they either get a new creative team that is not so lazy. I really never brought the books for the mechanic but for lore and the way the dealt with a different reality. I am not enjoy the new direction. This is not a call to boycott WotC by the way I am just stating my feeling and reactions to what they have done.
They have changed the Realms instead of creating a new world for their ideas...I asked why they didn't create new world for the new ideas they were forcing on the Realms. Chris Perkins answeared they did want to fully support a new campaign world...which now makes no sense since all the support a campaign world will recieve are three books and a couple of adventures. So what would be the massive support? I am finding this companby really disengenious.
This will be my last post here on these boards. If anybody wants to stay in contact PM me(I'll be checking it for about a week or two) and I'll give you my e-mail address...
Anyway happy gaming everyone.
Anyway, history aside, Brightside does have a point, in that there are those of us who are looking for any reason to complain and protest 4e when a lot of the very concepts being complained about were certainly present in 3e, just not as emphasized. I wouldn't put that down to fear of change though, mostly just blind hatred for the changes to the Realms being aimed at the most convenient target. I don't really think anyone around here that I've seen has reacted out of fear of change really... at least not that I've noticed.
As to picking up 4e... well, he's probably right as far as the rulebooks are concerned, even if the reasoning behind the conclusion are pretty off as far as I can tell.
Anyway, this is not what is going on here or what is intimated by the poster. There is no witch hunt going on, but people voicing their annoyance, discontent and even utter disgust at what has happened to the setting ... or parts of it.
In 4 years time, much of what is going on here will be forgotten, another fanbase will revel in the "New Forgotten Realms" (if it makes the cut). To many on here it is much like looking back at ... e.g. the Roman Empire at its height from the perspective of the Italians 200 years after Rome's demise.
Maybe Ed and the freelancers can make the FR a new great setting to play in, even bring back some of the flair which is now being shed. But honestly, I can't see it. I need a rules set that is working and a setting that gives me a basis for the game. WotC has now pulped the setting for the sake of a rules set that has not struck a cord with me and hence the setting in its New Age form does not exactly strike a cord with me either. Never say never, but I have 30 odd 3E books and loads more of AD&D background material to work with and thus are in no need to buy 4E. I will keep an eye on the FR lore that comes out, as many "true" FRers will. But the enthusiasm is gone.
ill boycott, the if i dont like it i wont buy it boycott...
to bad i wont have an idea on it till 2 months from now.
no more fun
I asked why they didn't create new world for the new ideas they were forcing on the Realms. Chris Perkins answeared they did want to fully support a new campaign world...which now makes no sense since all the support a campaign world will recieve are three books and a couple of adventures. So what would be the massive support?
There still will be novels. They likely sell good.
I am also not entirely happy with a scheduled release of only two books and a scenario. I liked the lore books. But I expect there will be support in DDI, and there is the living campaign as well - hopefully that will bring out some good things.
Still, not entirely the same so I hope that they will find reason to bring out more as support for the setting grows.
Troll.
No, it's called an opinion you don't agree with. Oh, sorry, did that offend your delicate sensibilities?
No, it's called an opinion you don't agree with. Oh, sorry, did that offend your delicate sensibilities?
Your mom likes me more than you.
Now if you think so, "it's called an opinion you don't agree with"?
Oh, sorry, did that offend your delicate sensibilities?
Anyhow -
Eilistraee: Hate what happens to her - she gave the Drow a point of interest
Quilue: Expected but still sad - everything 'Ed' must go, obviously, to make room for the 'cool' stuff
The 'Deal': I like the return of the Dark Elves - thats something I have been a proponent for for quite some time. I just don't know how they will fit that into 4e's rules - there are only three sub-races of Elves!
Unless... Dark Elves just get Elf stats, and those are the good ones available to players, and Drow go back to being monsters (as they should). That would fit into 4e's simplification plans.
You know, dropping in to the site only once a twice a week has actully gotten me back into FR - without the negativity, I enjoy the lore again (accept, of course, for these developments).
I know the DE sis had a different attitude but bleh. Even reading Silverfall did not get me to see each of them as different beings. At least Jeff Grubb made Alias and her copies/sisters have different personalities. Just my
.Unless... Dark Elves just get Elf stats, and those are the good ones available to players, and Drow go back to being monsters (as they should). That would fit into 4e's simplification plans.
Not sure about that... aren't we getting proper drow PC stats in FRPG?
Not sure about that... aren't we getting proper drow PC stats in FRPG?
I'm inclined to suspect it'll be the new "Dark Elf" rather than the old "Drow".
Alustrial is the only sister I remotely like. The others all just seem the same.
I know the DE sis had a different attitude but bleh. Even reading Silverfall did not get me to see each of them as different beings. At least Jeff Grubb made Alias and her copies/sisters have different personalities. Just my
They are all different. I'm reading 2nd edition Seven Sisters at this moment and each of the Seven act and think and live in different ways. 2nd edition books are little by little cleaning my mind from all the $ed crap.
They are all different. I'm reading 2nd edition Seven Sisters at this moment and each of the Seven act and think and live in different ways. 2nd edition books are little by little cleaning my mind from all the $ed crap.
Every time you post $ed I got to chuckle inside Alediran. You likely were not around in the days when people were angry about the imminent release of 2nd Edition and kept posting how greedy T$R was. Funny how history repeats itself.
The arguement is essentially the same. Its the folks that weren't around for these transfers that don't get mad about it since they are not the ones with a few hundred bucks in now useless 3.5 materials, not to mention the 3.0, 2.0, 1.0, etc
Every time you post $ed I got to chuckle inside Alediran. You likely were not around in the days when people were angry about the imminent release of 2nd Edition and kept posting how greedy T$R was. Funny how history repeats itself.
I'm mad at the lore destruction, something that has not happened from 1st to 3rd edition. So this time is different. The rules don't matter to me. I can DM Forgotten Realms with Storyteller, Roll & Keep, or Rolemaster.
I'm mad because this time the greedy bean counters have not changed the ruleset to sell the core books again, but destroyed the most amazing RPG Fantasy Setting. And as a fellow Realmsian Schoolar I'm sure you feel the same, even if you can't say it. They killed everything that was unique and wonderful about the setting because they preffered to listen to the complainers (who are the minority) who could play on other settings that fit their styles instead of complaining about something they weren't going to play anyway.
And at least from 1st to 3rd D&D's most core aspect never changed, only the mechanics surrounding it.
The arguement is essentially the same. Its the folks that weren't around for these transfers that don't get mad about it since they are not the ones with a few hundred bucks in now useless 3.5 materials, not to mention the 3.0, 2.0, 1.0, etc
As someone who's been through this transition when it was OD&D to 1st Edition, I'm certainly not getting upset about it. But I'm used to having to change occasionally.
As someone who's been through this transition when it was OD&D to 1st Edition, I'm certainly not getting upset about it. But I'm used to having to change occasionally.
I am actually not upset about the transition to 4e. I preordered the books. Its the chop job they did on the realms that sticks in my craw
I am actually not upset about the transition to 4e. I preordered the books. Its the chop job they did on the realms that sticks in my craw
I'm more interested in running and/or playing games in the Realms than I used to be. I really don't like the ridiculously power-bloated mess it's become since 1st edition days.
And Eilistraee's sacrifice makes sense storywise, she always struck me as having chosen a tragic fate when she chose selfexile. She still will be my favorite elven goddes. That Corellon didn't act apon his vows to protect his daughter irks me the most.
As a long-time player of this game, I HATED the move to 2e, but cheered when 3e was announced. I still have 'Freddy-Krugar' Nightmares about giant THACOs chasing me around.
And those 'Options' books should just be burned... how many DIFFERENT fatigue systems did we wind up with? And people think 4e FR's lack of focus is bad....
Conversely, the lore was some of the best ever produced... go figure.
I'm inclined to suspect it'll be the new "Dark Elf" rather than the old "Drow".
Thats what I am thinking as well. It was hard keeping the Drow as 'scarey monsters' when so many people were running around playing them. This simple fix (just giving them seperate names) will cure a lot of that. The original Dark Elves were really very much like the Sylvan (Grugach) Elves anyway, so it makes sense to roll them back into that group for PCs.
I am actually not upset about the transition to 4e. I preordered the books. Its the chop job they did on the realms that sticks in my craw
QFT
I'm looking over the new rules now, and they aren't all that bad - I think its the "FrakenRealms" that has generated so much negativity to anything 4e.
And I suggest everyone look at the new rules before making any decisions - listening to others leads to a LOT of false assumptions. Not saying I will use them, but they aren't nearly as bad as people are making them out to be.
"Working for good and maintaining balance are often matters of small degrees. If you wish to shape a bush you must prune it gently, not take a scythe to it."
- Danilo Thann, speaking to Master Harper Bran Skorlsun just before he was offered a Harper pin, Year of Maidens
I'm more interested in running and/or playing games in the Realms than I used to be. I really don't like the ridiculously power-bloated mess it's become since 1st edition days.
And here was me thinking that this notion (if true) was the reason why they created Eberron
I'm mad at the lore destruction, something that has not happened from 1st to 3rd edition. So this time is different. The rules don't matter to me. I can DM Forgotten Realms with Storyteller, Roll & Keep, or Rolemaster.
I'm mad because this time the greedy bean counters have not changed the ruleset to sell the core books again, but destroyed the most amazing RPG Fantasy Setting. And as a fellow Realmsian Schoolar I'm sure you feel the same, even if you can't say it. They killed everything that was unique and wonderful about the setting because they preffered to listen to the complainers (who are the minority) who could play on other settings that fit their styles instead of complaining about something they weren't going to play anyway.
And at least from 1st to 3rd D&D's most core aspect never changed, only the mechanics surrounding it.
The other problem is that if you want to keep running everything the old way, the books are badly organized. I have to go to the devils entry to find a succubus? Eat my shorts.
The Tarrasque is camped like a WOW monster and spit up by the earth, only to have a big hole open up under him and be eaten? Someone did not read their Godzilla lore.
It would have been better to just have a big island of stuff like the Tarrasque, The worlds biggest giant Ape, Three Headed Dragon of Fury, The Biggest Gloomwing You've Ever Seen, and every so often, one of them gets off the island and goes on a rampage.
The other problem is that if you want to keep running everything the old way, the books are badly organized. I have to go to the devils entry to find a succubus? Eat my shorts.
The Tarrasque is camped like a WOW monster and spit up by the earth, only to have a big hole open up under him and be eaten? Someone did not read their Godzilla lore.
It would have been better to just have a big island of stuff like the Tarrasque, The worlds biggest giant Ape, Three Headed Dragon of Fury, The Biggest Gloomwing You've Ever Seen, and every so often, one of them gets off the island and goes on a rampage.
IIRC Marvel called it Monster Island, and the Tarrasque is not Godzilla to to make him that you need to add a half nuklear dragon template :D
This is what WotC should have done:
"Working for good and maintaining balance are often matters of small degrees. If you wish to shape a bush you must prune it gently, not take a scythe to it."
- Danilo Thann, speaking to Master Harper Bran Skorlsun just before he was offered a Harper pin, Year of Maidens
-Wow...That is wonderfully relevant and inciteful. And, of course, true and very telling.
And here was me thinking that this notion (if true) was the reason why they created Eberron
-Excellent.
Oh c'mon, the Inquisition didn't kill anyone really... well, hardly anyone.
Not to take this off-topic, but to clarify--we were talking about witch hunts in general, which happened over the centuries simply because people believed that witches existed and needed to be killed (not saying there weren't ever other motives, but the belief I talked about faciliated such hunts at the very least). From what I've read, simply being accused of witchcraft was often (usually) a death sentence, as the accused would be subject to trial-by-ordeal: if the person died, they were innocent, if not, they survived because they were a "witch" and therefore needed to be killed anyway.
Therefore, I don't find it a laughing matter, and it's offensive to compare people on a hobby forum to those who would kill innocent people.
Actually Sol's response is no more trollish than some of the other opinions found on this forum.
How do you know Sol is male?
Anyway, I know from past posts that Sol isn't fond of the Chosen of Mystra. Hence the happiness at Qilue's death (though I don't share it...).
"Working for good and maintaining balance are often matters of small degrees. If you wish to shape a bush you must prune it gently, not take a scythe to it."
-
there's a dirty joke in there somewhere
I don't really care much for the fact that they are killing of so many gods. The chosen, however....I'ven ever been fond of them and I don't mind seeing them go, but I don't see the necessity of killing off all these dieties. Then again, as much as I love the realms, I don't like a lot of the things related to its cosmology. The Wall of the Faithless, for example: I *hate* that thing. IKelemvor was one of few gods I was *hoping* they'd kill off, lol. What if I want my character to worship spirits? (ala the Rashemi). I know my characters aren't real, but I don't like the idea of my character wasting away to nothing in the Wall of the Faithless after his death. But I digress.
I still like the majority of what I've heard about the 4th Edition Realms, as I've said before, but certain things feel unnecessary. This would be one of them.
God forbid you should be a Sworddancer. If you are, you're done. You can't qualify for the class anymore, because you have to retrain your first level feat for Servant of the Fallen, and then you will actually lose levels because you can't meet all the prereqs.
That's why this is outrageous. Killing one of the most popular gods in the setting is a good way to cause riots. Really, Wizards, I would set up a bulletproof shield at Gencon, because you are going to be assaulted by legions of angry fans who are filled with hate. I actually feel bad for Rich Baker, and Chris Perkins. No matter how mouthy I get, they really don't deserve to be trampled to death by vengeful Forgotten Realms fans, no matter who they are.
Not to take this off-topic, but to clarify--we were talking about witch hunts in general, which happened over the centuries simply because people believed that witches existed and needed to be killed (not saying there weren't ever other motives, but the belief I talked about faciliated such hunts at the very least). From what I've read, simply being accused of witchcraft was often (usually) a death sentence, as the accused would be subject to trial-by-ordeal: if the person died, they were innocent, if not, they survived because they were a "witch" and therefore needed to be killed anyway.
Therefore, I don't find it a laughing matter, and it's offensive to compare people on a hobby forum to those who would kill innocent people.
Presuming Zanan's figures, you've still got maybe a few hundred people dying a year using a 300 year duration figure for it. And of those, not all that many were actually accused of witchcraft... most were heretics, which the Church was far more concerned with than some bizarre belief in witches, which were pretty much a heretical thought for a Catholic to have shortly before Sprenger and Kramer showed up, with their advocacy of using torture as a mandatory interrogation technique. And most of those accused were village outcasts who weren't liked much to begin with... scapegoat sort of thing. Not that much actual 'hunting' of witches really went on from everything I've ever read of it. Folks pretty much knew who they were to begin with, just as time went on, they got more bold and confident in their ability to make those accusations.
Now the stuff that went on after the Inquisition stopped dealing with it, that was pretty horrid stuff, but even Cotton Mather went on to later regret his actions and essentially recant his convictions that any of the people he helped burn were actual witches. But most of that was for the most part very disorganized in any meaningful way.
However, all that aside, I think that the comparison can be considered at least somewhat valid, as its one of the more classic examples of public hysteria going out of control and leading to horrible things. Not really many other parallels out there that are quite so well known, and it certainly gets its point across if one cares to look at it as it was probably intended. There certainly are parallels in some of us looking for things to hate, finding them regardless of how bad they actually are, and then doing our best to discredit and 'burn' them down. Not really that different in terms of mentality... which was the equation I thought, rather than the actions and the result.
That's why this is outrageous. Killing one of the most popular gods in the setting is a good way to cause riots. Really, Wizards, I would set up a bulletproof shield at Gencon, because you are going to be assaulted by legions of angry fans who are filled with hate. I actually feel bad for Rich Baker, and Chris Perkins. No matter how mouthy I get, they really don't deserve to be trampled to death by vengeful Forgotten Realms fans, no matter who they are.
That's a really amusing mental image, if somewhat horrifying on some levels... I'd probably pay to see it happen (these are paid actors, not gaming professionals sort of thing). :D
(...) I actually feel bad for Rich Baker, and Chris Perkins. No matter how mouthy I get, they really don't deserve to be trampled to death by vengeful Forgotten Realms fans, no matter who they are.
Frankly, I feel bad for (the author) Lisa Smedman, as she may be on the receiving end of a lot of flak for this. In all likelihood, she probably was told to write in this specific plot point of killing Eilistraee without much say in the matter.
If you are upset with the FR situation, why -not- blame Chris Perkins, Rich Baker, and Bruce Cordell? Are they not the designers responsible for making these specific decisions? General spite towards WotC isn't helpful really, as the issue wasn't so much do x, y and z as it was a more "it'll need to be compatible with 4E, so come up with something" kind of directive.
What I don't understand entirely is how they could do these various RSEs and god-killings that are IMO -really- contrary to the feel of the FR setting. As an example, why would the goddess Eilistraee, who is a child of two godly elves, make such an incomprehensible decision as to sacrifice herself (and the future of all possible goodly drow, no offers of redemption in the future) to transform such a small percentage of drow into brown/dark elves? It doesn't make sense for an immortal, who is supposed to see the big, long-term picture. It doesn't make sense for -her- with respect to her portfolio (at least to me). Furthermore, it goes against the general feel of moral complexity in the Realms, where everything was not black and white: now, it really will be black and white (or rather black and brown). And now, all future drow are irredeemable, and these brown elves are all fully redeemed? What?
The Realms I watched grow from infancy always held an opposite philosophy, that one's personal actions led to redemption (or a fall). Now the gods will be re-tuned as semi-Christianized versions of "seek redemption through me, as deeds are irrelevant". It's maybe good for some real-world religions if you believe that, but for a -game-? Isn't the game, especially the FR game, supposed to be about normal people going through challenging obstacles and winning, rather than Chosen people doing "cool stuff" and winning because you know they're meant to anyway? Now, instead of the "chosen" being NPCs in the setting, the "chosen" are the PCs. Yuck.
The other thing that's clear, at least it seems so to me, someone is acting with spite toward the setting. Talk about the issue with Qilue's soul - destroyed forever? Insult to injury, anyone? Was that really necessary for the story, or for 4E? Absolutely not. Someone (or perhaps several) on the design team isn't just making editorial decisions, they're adding in finalities, which might be good for novel writing but it's terrible for setting design.
I don't know... for a while I was -trying- really hard to be positive about 4E, and maybe I'll still try to play the 4E rules, but this continued assault on the basic principles of the core FR setting is turning me off really badly.
Really, Wizards, I would set up a bulletproof shield at Gencon, because you are going to be assaulted by legions of angry fans who are filled with hate.
Be careful... this could be construed as a threat.
I don't think WotC will be present at Gencon, however. Nothing to do with 4e - they are "waiting out" the final decision concerning the lawsuit against Gencon and the Bankruptcy hearings. Either way, it may have worked out for the best for them... and indirectly push Paizo's Pathfinder to the forefront - they are planning a big splash this year. Funny how the timing of these things just works out some times. :D
I actually feel bad for Rich Baker, and Chris Perkins. No matter how mouthy I get, they really don't deserve to be trampled to death by vengeful Forgotten Realms fans, no matter who they are.
Rich I feel bad for ... Chris P. not so much - HE is the one person responsible for steering FR's current path. Many people may be contributing to it, but he gets the final decision on everything, and is in charge of all changes made.
If you are upset with the FR situation, why -not- blame Chris Perkins, Rich Baker, and Bruce Cordell? Are they not the designers responsible for making these specific decisions?
Rich Baker does not deserve 99% of the heat he gets - he puts himself out there every day in the "ask the designers" thread, and makes himself an easy target. WotC should give him 'Hazard Pay'. Add to that that Mr. Baker isn't even working on FR - he is on the 4e team, but not directly contributing to the FRCG if I'm not mistaken. Is he completely innocent? Hell no! But then again, neither is Ed G. or RAS....
Chris Perkins I discussed above - he deserves all of our anger... nay, REVULSION. He got to make the final calls... and they were all pretty bad.
Bruce Cordell - this is a tough one... I like him. I like his work. Bastion of Faith is one of my favorite and most used 2e products (along with Castle of Wizardry), so I have a very hard time putting down the man's design work. I also liked Dark Vision, and will probably enjoy Star Deep as well...
But I think his personal tastes have NO PLACE IN FR!!! I think he would be a great designer and author... for Call of Cthulhu. Sorry Bruce... you just don't 'get' FR.
Looking back over the past nine months or so, I find it VERY hard to believe that none of the people involved have had second thoughts... how could they not? Are they blind?
I am trying my damned hardest NOT to hate 4e FR, really... but it ain't easy.
@Alediran - who wrote that line you quoted? Just curious if it was Ed or not.
Frankly, I feel bad for (the author) Lisa Smedman, as she may be on the receiving end of a lot of flak for this. In all likelihood, she probably was told to write in this specific plot point of killing Eilistraee without much say in the matter.
I agree with this. The storyline from the beginning seems very forced.
I don't know... for a while I was -trying- really hard to be positive about 4E, and maybe I'll still try to play the 4E rules, but this continued assault on the basic principles of the core FR setting is turning me off really badly.
I was also trying to stay positive, or at least neutral. Now, not so much... I have nothing against a new edition with new rules and mechanics. Its the mass destruction of the Realms, and drastic changes to lore that I find to be in bad taste. And no, not all change is bad. However, many of the changes that have been occurring I view as bad personally. Thats just my opinion.
I don't hate 4E, WotC, or any of it's employees. They are after all, a company, and must make a profit. I merely believe that based on how the Realms are looking, I will not be joining in the new edition. I also have quite an investment in 3.x materials, and am not quite ready to splurge on an entire new one.
Aside from that, I do plan on looking through the 4E books at my local bookstore, if only to glimpse at the art. I'll do the same with the FR books that are released, to see just how much the Realms have changed.
So why does that remind me of what I hear of 4E? Unless I'm wrong, I'm not hearing much distinction between the classes, except as in WoW where everyone had a specific "job" in boss combats. Everyone followed the clicker-mantra of skill1-skill2-defense-skill1 (basically), except for unique moments that required skill3 or the rare skill4. Sure the skill animations look different and flashy, and they have different names, but to know and play one class is really knowing all the classes. But I don't want a "job" for my character in combat... it grows dull. In 1st edition AD&D, as a mage or priest I had a real reason to fear swords at close range. Same really with 2nd and 3rd edition. Now... everything is "balanced". Where's the feel of absolute difference when playing different characters? Will it still be there? I don't know yet. Where's the feel of magic being special? Will it still be there, if your mage is functionally the same as your warrior?
But perhaps even more importantly, -why- are the designers hacking and slashing out "fluff" or lore bits that have no impact at all on the skill-based play of 4E? And why inject things that make no sense for the setting's basic feel, like a huge new preponderance of Chtulhu-like aliens of the far realm? Wouldn't it make more sense to put out a sourcebook on "Far Realm" aliens that -individuals- could inject, rather than making it canon?
Granted, I believe that there were a number of things that needed to be fixed. But I wonder if they listened to the wrong audience when they decided exactly what to fix. Nothing they've fixed so far makes me feel excited about playing 4E realms. I may try 4E generally, but 4E Realms looks entirely different, even down to fundamentals, than the setting I knew for 20 years.
anyway Therise, i feel bad for Mr. Baker, i dont feel bad for Mr. perkins though, the way i see it, you ask for it, you get it.
I however blame Mr. Perkins very little in this mess, as I blame the community and the gripers who never post here but say it elsewhere about the realms, and dms who use high powered npcs to finish a quest that the party couldnt finish more than i blame him.
the death of multiple gods, some of which was reasonable, some of which was unnecessary.
however I doubt most will even use the 4e$ version's list of gods in its entirety, I wont
Xaean, ever look at castlemourn?
that ancient Chinese dude( well at least i think he was Chinese, and very sorry for misspelling his most honorable name) Confusas say" To open Mouth is to insert foot."
Its easier to watch and learn from others than it is to make the same mistake twice, but some things will always be learned the hard way, pride will always bring one down to your knees.
Anyhow, I really identify with the "lather, rinse, repeat" thing, and the builds in 4e do look very familiar. There was a time where every D&D class worked differently (although some were very similar) - now each class progresses identical, and they just call whatever power or ability they get by different names. The flavor has been sucked right out of it .
And I can now feel justified about making that statement, because it is finally based on having actually seen the rules, rather then conjecture. The classes simply do not feel the same as they did in earlier editions.
Even in WoW they felt different (I built a melee warlock just for fun), because you had different class quests to do at various levels. The new D&D doesn't even have that going for it - everybody does the same thing and works the same way, so weather you are Backstabbing, swinging your axe, Casting a lightning bolt, or smiting Evil... it all feels the same.
The skill system has been so watered down it might as well not exist.
Could this game be fun to play? You Betcha! But so was Warcraft... for awhile...
They're even using the Computer-game formula - a new 'expansion' comes out every year to keep people's interest (PHB2, PHB3, etc...). The game has become a toy now - good for a couple of hours of fun, but very little in the way of 'replay value'. When you pickup a Tonka Truck, you don't start where you left off the last time, you just start somewhere new. I think thats the niche 4e is designed to fit - a series on unconnected adventures (points of light?) strung together with little in the way of framework.
Funny thing is, thats how OD&D worked, and they set out to recapture that feeling... and were unfortunely VERY successful.
I don't know... for a while I was -trying- really hard to be positive about 4E, and maybe I'll still try to play the 4E rules, but this continued assault on the basic principles of the core FR setting is turning me off really badly.
-Don't let the lines of the 4e ruleset, and the 4e Forgotten Realms blur. It should be fairly easy to enjoy one, but not the other.
Bruce Cordell - this is a tough one... I like him. I like his work. Bastion of Faith is one of my favorite and most used 2e products (along with Castle of Wizardry), so I have a very hard time putting down the man's design work. I also liked Dark Vision, and will probably enjoy Star Deep as well...
-Yeeeehhhh...No you won't. Just, take my advice, you won't. Do you think that sentient, android-like "computer robots" (think 'Hal', from 2001 movie) belong in the Forgotten Realms?
There was a time where every D&D class worked differently (although some were very similar)
You must mean, "There was a time when every D&D class worked differently (cast spells or full attack)."
The problem is "What about PC's who are Eilistraee clerics?" Who is going to grant these folks their spells? You just have 15 dead levels or whatever the moment 1377 hits?
God forbid you should be a Sworddancer. If you are, you're done. You can't qualify for the class anymore, because you have to retrain your first level feat for Servant of the Fallen, and then you will actually lose levels because you can't meet all the prereqs.
Well, first off, it depends on whether you intent to include this stuff at all. Second, who knows who takes care of the Eilistraeens when the lass perishes. I'd assume either Sehanine or Selúne will, since they can actually cater to the Moon and Portals stuff. As in: I wouldn't overdo this with a much loved character, even if canon lore says otherwise. Just consider, at the beginning of the WotSQ many players of Lolthites were essentially left empty-handed for the better part of 4 years (real life), i.e. (1 session a week) for some 150 to 200 game sessions. When that was done and Lolth went on-line again, enter Lady Penitent. If I had included all the events into my running campaigns and adventures, many a player would have wielded those scourges of pain on me! For it took ages to sort out what happens and will happen ... and speaking of the latter, we should wait and see what the solution for the Eilistraeens will be. I'd hope that someone up there in the designers' department had spent half a thought on those players too. Mind you, it will only take a couple of sentences.
You must mean, "There was a time when every D&D class worked differently (cast spells or full attack)."
Weather you love it or hate it Mula, even YOU have to admit it is whole different game.
Personally I can see them serving different purposes, so theres room for both (D&D and 4e). I will have to admit the streamlining will work much better in a comp/video game, as well as tournament play.
The DM is now much more of a 'storyteller' in 4e then a 'judge'.
Frankly, I feel bad for (the author) Lisa Smedman, as she may be on the receiving end of a lot of flak for this. In all likelihood, she probably was told to write in this specific plot point of killing Eilistraee without much say in the matter.
That is almost definitely the case.
I agree with you that the ideas about redemption in this trilogy (and I have read the first two novels, if not this one that just came out) are wonky, to put it kindly.
But I think his personal tastes have NO PLACE IN FR!!! I think he would be a great designer and author... for Call of Cthulhu. Sorry Bruce... you just don't 'get' FR.
It might be mean and overly dismissive, but having read Stardeep and Darkvision I'm inclined to think the same thing.
That is almost definitely the case.
I agree with you that the ideas about redemption in this trilogy (and I have read the first two novels, if not this one that just came out) are wonky, to put it kindly.
Actually, I really haven't seen anyone say anything about her directly. In fact, I find her to be one of the better current FR writers. Her sembia book was excellent and the trilogy she wrote about the Yuan-Ti (forget the name) was good as well. I am sure the book despite what you may say about the plot points is probably well writte
Actually, I really haven't seen anyone say anything about her directly. In fact, I find her to be one of the better current FR writers. Her sembia book was excellent and the trilogy she wrote about the Yuan-Ti (forget the name) was good as well. I am sure the book despite what you may say about the plot points is probably well writte
I didn't say I think the books aren't well-written, I just don't care for the ideas about redemption that are put forth in the text.
I have read her other books and enjoyed them.
I didn't say I think the books aren't well-written,
Didn't mean to imply that you did. I was merely saying that your right, there may some flack but she is an excellent author
It was kind of obvious that Elistraee was going to die, but the other events.. are just.... bleeeeeeeeeeerrrrggg
Didn't mean to imply that you did.
Understood.
I was merely saying that your right, there may some flack but she is an excellent author
Yes, I agree, I think she's a good writer.
Understood.
so we're still good?
These people need to read Lester Dent's Pulp Formula. That guy could write this kind of stuff. And he did it with half the page count, and no sloppiness.
http://www.miskatonic.org/dent.html
I really, really hated this book. It was like slogging through acid.
I haven't enjoyed Lisa's writing. She's a clueless hack.
ouch. I must say I don't think thats fair
ouch. I must say I don't think thats fair
Seconded.
Stigger, is Ayn Rand two persons? ;)
Weather you love it or hate it Mula, even YOU have to admit it whole different game.
Yup, but then again, I like variety.
I will have to admit the streamlining will work much better in a comp/video game, as well as tournament play.
I really don't know about video games - there's a lot of immediate interrupts and triggers that don't translate well to a real-time computer/video game environment. Also, the new skill challenge system looks like it can sometimes be too abstract for video games, which prefer very concrete, rules heavy mechanics. There's no DM in a video game and thus you need rules for as many situations as possible. What about encounter and daily abilities? Defining an encounter could be more difficult in a video game, and the whole 1 extended rest a day thing might be problematic. Then again, 3e runs on a "per day" system and it's worked sufficiently enough in computer games (though prone to abuse).
Additionally, 4e places even more emphasis on tactical movement, and that's a nightmare in a real-time computer or video game. A lot of powers allow and force the combatants to move, slide, and shift, and to take additional attacks against enemies. I have a hard time seeing them working well in a real-time environment.
Seconded.
Stigger, is Ayn Rand two persons? ;)
No. I defy you to get through Atlas Shrugged, though. Or, for that matter, any of her other material.
William Faulkner is easier to get through, more complex, and a better author.
Additionally, 4e places even more emphasis on tactical movement, and that's a nightmare in a real-time computer or video game. A lot of powers allow and force the combatants to move, slide, and shift, and to take additional attacks against enemies. I have a hard time seeing them working well in a real-time environment.
-That part, I don't agree with. That is the sort of thing that can be handled best with a video game system/computer exactly because they have the processing power to easily handle that (with some lag, if necessary) sort of thing.
so we're still good?
Of course!
How do you know Sol is male?
Anyway, I know from past posts that Sol isn't fond of the Chosen of Mystra. Hence the happiness at Qilue's death (though I don't share it...).
Pretty much; I'm fine with some of the Chosen, but the Seven Sisters are pretty obnoxious--not a "wah they overshadow my PCs waah" complaint, just complete dislike of them as characters I find badly written. Predictably, though, my post got someone's panties into a twist, complete with a "YOUR MOM" retort, which we all know is the epitome of maturity.
And I would enjoy Ayn Rand's stuff more if she wasn't so self-satisfied when writing it. The only reason I got through Anthem was that it was short.
-That part, I don't agree with. That is the sort of thing that can be handled best with a video game system/computer exactly because they have the processing power to easily handle that (with some lag, if necessary) sort of thing.
I completely disagree. The problem isn't that it's complex from a mathematical point of view - the problem is that you can't make the same decisions in a real-time environment that you could in a turn-based, DM and player controlled one. Examples:
Level 1 at will fighter power Tide of Iron allows you to push your target 1 square and you can shift into the space the target occupied with the same action. How do you make this decision in real-time?
Level 1 encounter fighter power Covering Attack lets an ally adjacent to the enemy you just attacked to shift 2 squares. How the hell does this work in real-time?
Level 2 utility fighter power Get Over Here lets you slide a willing ally 2 squares to a square that's adjacent to you. Which exact square, in real-time?
Let's not even go to the warlord powers.
I completely disagree. The problem isn't that it's complex from a mathematical point of view - the problem is that you can't make the same decisions in a real-time environment that you could in a turn-based, DM and player controlled one.
The slides, shifts or pushes could be translated into a slight movementspeed burst or penalty.
For example: After a fighter uses Iron Tide (wich allows him to keep pressing the attack on the pushed enemy in my cinematic view of the exploit) he gets a slight one second movementspeed increase to keep up with the foe.
But the streamlining of the rules lends itself to logic equations FAR MORE easily then 3e did. 3e relied quite a bit on the DM adjudicating situations, whereas in 4e they are much more clear-cut.
True, neither lends itself very well to an electronic RPG because of the lack of a Gamemaster, but from my experience as a programmmer, 3e player/DM, and 4e novice, 4e lends itself to electronic adaption far more readily.
For instance, 3e's skill system pretty much requires a DM to figure out what you can and can't do.
Also, there are clearly defined paths for each archtype to follow (what computer-gamers call 'builds') - the shear abundance of rules-breaking PrCs in 3e made it impossible to include everything available in splatbooks in a workable videogame format.
I would probably never consider playing an FR-based MORPG with 3e rules, and I'm a FR fan and avid WoW player. They would have 'dumb down' the system to make it workable.
On the other hand, if they ever come out with an FR MORPG based on the 4e rules, I would consider it. They rely a lot less on DMs 'fudging' rules, so the game can be more story-driven.
And yes, I am saying that 4e is easier for storytelling games, because the DM spends less time being a rules lawyer and more time keeping the game interesting and flowing smoothly. It may even prove to be a DMs dream-come-true.
I still feel that 3e is better for players, though, because it gives THEM more control - something they lacked in earlier incarnations of D&D.
Like I said, I will paytest 4e this weekend, and give a fair, unbiased opinion of how this worked out. Being the DM, I may just fall in love with it... who knows?
You are taking this as a bad thing - I'm saying the game is more 'logical', and therefore easier to convert.
there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
I seriously think you're underestimating the impact of the more tactical nature of 4e combat. It doesn't translate to real-time easily.
For instance, 3e's skill system pretty much requires a DM to figure out what you can and can't do.
Care to elaborate?
Also, there are clearly defined paths for each archtype to follow (what computer-gamers call 'builds') - the shear abundance of rules-breaking PrCs in 3e made it impossible to include everything available in splatbooks in a workable videogame format.
I don't that's been a problem at all. Look at NWN - it doesn't suffer from the abundance of feats and prestige classes at all. This is not a problem when converting D&D to computer/video games.
Just by looking at it, it appears this way to me. Once I play it, I will better understand what you mean by the "tactical nature" of the game.
And BTW, WoW has plenty of that, like those godamn rabbit-hopping PVPers that I can't hit, or the fact that the Succubus Whip has additional effects if it hits from behind.
You get a shadow-damage bonus - thats why I always send her halfway to my opponent before drawing them in. As long as she hits from the rear, my damge is multiplied. :D
There's quite a few other tactical things I can think of, especially using the nature of 'agro' and 'training' the baddies to you. Personally, position is everything - there was spot in one of the battlegrounds where a person could fire away with spells and no one could hit them... until they nerfed it. Also, I used narrow tunnels all the time to keep the bad guys from surrounding me - try getting a spell off with a half-dozens mooks wacking at you.
Anyhow, I am at a disadvantage discussing a system I haven't played, so I will be able to better understand it by next week.
Thanks for your input.
Anyhow, I am at a disadvantage discussing a system I haven't played, so I will be able to better understand it by next week.
I'm not sure if you'll like it or not (having played it myself, I thought it was okay but very different), but I do think that you'll be surprised at how simplified combats have really become. That can be a good thing, but it sure didn't feel like D&D to me. =shrug=
I'm not sure if you'll like it or not (having played it myself, I thought it was okay but very different), but I do think that you'll be surprised at how simplified combats have really become. That can be a good thing, but it sure didn't feel like D&D to me. =shrug=
If you don't mind, could you elaborate on why you feel that way?
If you don't mind, could you elaborate on why you feel that way?
Sure, I can try. I have a tendency to favor clerics, and so I played KotS as the half-elf cleric (lawful good, mind you). At lvl 1, I had access to "at will" powers: a "lance of faith" (rather like a light-bolt for damage), a "sacred flame" (which burns an enemy and heals an ally). Also, an "encounter power" which "buffed" my weapon for attack bonus and healed an ally at the same time. And a once "daily power" that was like a small area-of-effect that simultaneously weakened enemies and gave a tiny heal to allies in the area. I had other small powers as well, but they were limited to a specific number of times per encounter. As you level up, the powers increase generally . It was all right, and I would say we were all on a learning curve for our characters and their abilities, but the limits on "per encounter" or "per day" seemed a -lot- like Warcraft. I felt a lot like I was playing a cross between a priest and paladin in Warcraft, as they tend to buff allies, shield allies (when necessary "bubble shield"), and do really minor heals and minor "holy damage".
Also, we had a person playing the 4E paladin, and it looked functionally almost exactly the same to me, as he was often doing the same things that I was. I'd say I spent a tiny more time healing than he did, as his power was a daily, I think and my heals were not (they were limited by encounter, though). He had a power for a glowy weapon buff just as I did, although his weapon didn't heal and it did more damage. He also had a (imo) silly drangonbreath attack, which we made fun of. There were also "character states" that one could get in combat, like "dazed", "weakened" or "stunned" (way more than 3, though), which was -very- like Warcraft as the different states reduced your abilities or actions you could take.
So it was generally fun, but we were all on a learning curve and probably did a few things wrong. But combat seemed to go way faster. I'll also say that we had a -lot- more powers available to us than a 3.5 person at 1st level, and the focus on those powers (using them to best effect in combat) seemed to be more what we focused on rather than roleplaying. And we tend toward heavy roleplaying.
So it was generally fun, but we were all on a learning curve and probably did a few things wrong. But combat seemed to go way faster. I'll also say that we had a -lot- more powers available to us than a 3.5 person at 1st level, and the focus on those powers (using them to best effect in combat) seemed to be more what we focused on rather than roleplaying. And we tend toward heavy roleplaying.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, I appreciate it.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, I appreciate it.
Surely.
That's exactly what we felt when we played. Except that at epic levels combat stops to a crawl with all the failed attacks and all the healing capacity of both sides.
Agh, that's unfortunate. If so, that would mean they didn't make epic play any faster at all... which was sort of a major point for 4E.
Remind yourself that whatever is said in canon - even though how hard it is to take - does not need to have any relevance in your Realms nor will it have relevance in the Realms pre-LP.
Remind yourself too that whatever the novel says, there is written lore which allows any priest or worshipper of those slain to access the divine power still.
Remind yourself tooo that there will be more lore yet unwritten and more novels out and about in months and years to come and who knows what they will change of canon.
That all may be true, but it does mean with the change that the Realms people loved will no longer be supported or grow. Not everyone has the time to completely homebrew a FR campaign, which is what they'll have to do if they want to continue it as it is, instead of the 4e changes.
That all may be true, but it does mean with the change that the Realms people loved will no longer be supported or grow. Not everyone has the time to completely homebrew a FR campaign, which is what they'll have to do if they want to continue it as it is, instead of the 4e changes.
Fair enough. You can always go here ...
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads
... and get tons of FR material (AD&D) or use core adventure like the Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil or The Standing Stone within Realmspace. ;)
Fair enough. You can always go here ...
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads
... and get tons of FR material (AD&D) or use core adventure like the Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil or The Standing Stone within Realmspace. ;)
Have already done that. And been trying to download as much material they have up atm, before I figure it gets moved to DDI.
But its all stuff we've already done. The campaign setting we know and love is essentially dead as far as support from WotC goes.
However, FR and the worlds are another matter. I finished Ascendancy of the Last yesterday, and while I'm not terribly surprised, I am disappointed - not in the novel itself, per se, or in Lisa Smedman's writing (which I've generally found enjoyable), but in what feels like the forced ending to suit the official vision of FR for 4th edition.
I liked Eilistraee's religion a lot, and the themes and conflicts that went with it. I don't intend to dredge back up all of my old complaints about how they're mercilessly slaughtering gods and NPCs... but even with that, I still think it could have been handled in a better way, that tosses a bone to those people who are huge fans of a particular Deity, NPC, etc...
So, assuming that we have to have Eilistraee removed as a god... why, oh why, do you have to do it in such a ridiculously heavy-handed fashion? My suggestion isn't even that far off from what happened:
Official Version: Eilistraee saved all the good aligned/inclined drow and helped turn them into Dark Elves. She was then killed, utterly permanently forever and ever. She's never coming back, nope, not ever.
I can take the selfless-sacrifice theme... but really, why not have her come back as a servitor of Corellon? She doesn't even need to be a deity in her own right to at least mollify me.
Of course, the above poster who noted that no one is ever truly dead in comics/novels/rpgs/etc is spot-on. After all, Eilistraee would only be about the four thousand ninety-seventh FR deity to come back thanks to a secret contingency plan. Again, needn't even be as a deity - even just an immortal servitor/champion of the Seldarine would be fine.
I guess this is what so much of 4th Edition FR comes down to for me - that it feels like not only are the things we like being take out, but that it's being done so in such a way as to rub salt in the wound.
I suppose we should just feel grateful she wasn't written out of the world in the prologue text of some adventure, the way that Halaster and Sylune of Shadowdale were.
Not happy. Discontent. Angry, along with some others who supported the Dark Maiden.
But not shocked. I had predicted their reasons, quite accurately. It still doesn't sit well with me. I disagree completely that Eilistraee "diminishes" the other good drow.
I am glad that they told everyone honestly.
That cements my decision to not move forward to 4E. Especially the 4E Realms. It is NOT the same setting I came to care about.
For those that are going to purchase the Realms because they're cool now... I wish them the best of luck. Honestly, I hope they generate enough sells to keep the 4E "Forgotten Realms" alive. It falls to the new fans now I guess.
As for me... definitely not going to. Which makes me sad. But the careless butchering of a setting I cared for has definitely left a bitter taste in my mouth.
I'm trying really hard not to say something callous, as I'm quite distraught right now... Yes, over a game setting. Silly, I know, but I don't mean anyone disrespect. Just stating my opinion and displeasure is all.
bad idea, big mistake
However, FR and the worlds are another matter. I finished Ascendancy of the Last yesterday, and while I'm not terribly surprised, I am disappointed - not in the novel itself, per se, or in Lisa Smedman's writing (which I've generally found enjoyable), but in what feels like the forced ending to suit the official vision of FR for 4th edition.
Indeed. The story can't just "be itself", it has to be written according to what WotC wants for the official FR campaign setting. That tends to give certain plot developments a very forced feel.
I now own this novel, and I've skimmed through it. Now, based on what I've read (at this point I don't care about being spoiled) my opinion about Eilistraee's sacrifice is...
Show
...that it is not wonderful at all, but appalling. According to the book, she and Qilue saved those drow who were not corrupted by Wedonai's taint (an accident of birth!) and those who were her followers. All other drow are "unsaved", and that is written off in the book as a "necessary sacrifice."
That means the souls of innocent drow fetuses forming in the womb (and those not even conceived yet) are doomed, even though they've never had the chance to make any kind of moral decision. Supposedly, there is "no longer any need for Eilistraee", but if she were still around, she could have saved them, at least according to this book. Isn't this a troubling thought?
It also suggests that having a bit of demon blood in you (which, by the way, is another drow development I find stupid) means you have NO control over your actions whatsoever, and can never be "redeemed" unless you have a savior. Redemption in the Realms, as what others have said here, should be about free will and personal choices. The gods can and should influence, but they aren't supposed to predetermine a person's future.
That means the souls of innocent drow fetuses forming in the womb (and those not even conceived yet) are doomed, even though they've never had the chance to make any kind of moral decision. Supposedly, there is "no longer any need for Eilistraee", but if she were still around, she could have saved them, at least according to this book. Isn't this a troubling thought?
It also suggests that having a bit of demon blood in you (which, by the way, is another drow development I find stupid) means you have NO control over your actions whatsoever, and can never be "redeemed" unless you have a savior. Redemption in the Realms, as what others have said here, should be about free will and personal choices. The gods can and should influence, but they aren't supposed to predetermine a person's future.
But not shocked. I had predicted their reasons, quite accurately. It still doesn't sit well with me. I disagree completely that Eilistraee "diminishes" the other good drow.
As do I. I enjoyed what Eilistraee's faith brought to the setting, and now it's all gone. All to support an idea I don't even think works (see my post above).
Indeed. The story can't just "be itself", it has to be written according to what WotC wants for the official FR campaign setting. That tends to give certain plot developments a very forced feel.
A big problemo in my opinion. They forced this plot thru and it seems weak, at least judging from what I'm reading here. I do like the authors work so I will read this. But it does seem unfortunate and I am no lover of the Ellistrae thing. Frankly I thought Ed's concept of 20% of drow being good to be a bit high
A big problemo in my opinion.
-Yes. This is, perhaps, one of the reasons why so many people seem to :thumbsdow so many of the more recent Forgotten Realms novels.
Frankly I thought Ed's concept of 20% of drow being good to be a bit high
-I always felt the same.
as the only drow i ever encountered, the ones in iwd2 or iwd2 were not evil, being who they worshiped, they were not good either, neutral and or evil.
viconia from bg was evil,
that drow in nwn:hotu was evil.
the drow seer was good, as were some of her followers.
every other drow in hotu wasnt good.
and for that matter the only drow in any of the novels,
drizzt, was good aligned
b. armgo
Q. veladorn
L beanre
were the only ones ever read about that were not evil, and 3 of them didnt start that way.
Do note that back then (AD&D), drow were meant to be evil and there was hardly a distinction between young drow, old drow, or experienced drow. Especially in core stuff, drow were always portrayed as bloodthirsty monsters. The FR lore eroded that view ... and more often than not more subtle than that one scimitar-wielder. You'd get quite a number of non-evil drow, or let's say drow who did not simply behaved like MM stereotypes and were given hardline application of alignment rules. So here's to the Liriel and the WotSQ stories, even the Lady Penitent ones. Lots of diverse drow characters in there.
Even the NE change in 3E was quite reasonable an idea. Of course, unless you go hardline on the characters too, people are never behaving exactly according to their alignment 24/7/365.
That all said, the number of truly good drow was always rather small and should always be rather small. Much like having CE moon or sun elves. You get them here and there, but they are certainly no norm. If there are more brown "dark elves" in 4E Realmspace, I'd hope that most of them are neutral with the odd good and evil amongst them. I'd hate if they use this "redemption" stuff to paint them all "usually good".
I don't have any problem with saying that a fiendish bloodline is part of what drew most of them into corruption and evil in the first place, nor saying that it's a part of why they're so prone to evil. However, I think too much emphasis was placed on it as being the entirety of the reason they were under Lolth's sway, and that it was the barrier preventing them from being redeemed.
@Zanan: I think that's exactly the idea WotC was aiming at with the redemption of good drow, to make them brown elves with usually good alignment and make drow always evil. It's going to be a futile atempt unless brown elves and drow are mechanically the same because brown elves will feel just like any other elven race and it doesn't has the same apeal than playing a good-aligned drow that fighting against the evil of his race. And the perception of drow as something to hate and fear was broken long ago by Drizzt, Liriel and other drow like them, that time will not come back, no matter what WotC attempts to do.
-Well, I finished the novel. Overall, it was better than I thought it would be, considering everything I heard. I wrote a list of continuity problems, and just parts that didn't make much sense as I was reading it. Anyone want to read it?
Yes ... sure ... since I write a revision for the German DnD-Gate, I'd certainly put it to good use. Alongside my own stuff, of course ;) ... and you'll obviously get a mention, so some fame at last for mighty "Lord Karsus"!
-Well, I finished the novel. Overall, it was better than I thought it would be, considering everything I heard. I wrote a list of continuity problems, and just parts that didn't make much sense as I was reading it. Anyone want to read it?
Sure, post your list.
(1) A Temple of Araushnee around 30,000 years old: She did not even know about the existence of Realmspace until well after she became Lolth, around the fall of Occidian. It was Kythrillia Amarillis (Sp?) that alerted her to Realmspace. If she had worshippers there already, she would have known about it. Thus, there could not have been a temple dedicated to Araushnee thatis 30,000 years old. By this point, she was already Lolth.
(2) Decapitation destroys an individual's soul: Since when? In no other Forgotten Realms novel, or D&D book, I've never seen anything like this.
(3) Eilistraee's banishment from Arvandor: Eilistraee was never banished from Arvandor. She willingly left the Seldarine. Furthermore, her main Divine Realm is still in Arvandor. She keeps a smaller Divine Realm in the Demonweb Pits, but spends more time in her realm in Arvandor.
(4) Guldor Zauviir: A Wizard 20 / Archmage 2 was killed with a simple slash of his throat. Why is it that a Level 22 caster had 0 contingencies protecting him from something like this?
(4) How does Fingerspeld know what a Selu'Kiira is?: I still don't know how a Svirfneblin gemcutter, who spend most of his life as a slave, could identify what a Kiira is, let alone identify a Selu'Kiira, and a powerful Selu'Kiira at that. But, whatever.
(5) Cavatina knows about Ao: I don't know how or why she would know about Ao. But, whatever.
(6) The death of Eilistraee: From what I gathered, Eilistraee took Qilue as her avatar. The Lady Penitent killed the avatar, sure, but since when did the death of an avatar mean the death of the deity? Mystra has had avatars that were destroyed, yet she remained.
-And, Zanan, make sure you don't use those quotation marks! :P
You do not hear from me often unless the matter strikes near to my heart.
Thus, I speak now on this matter.
Eilistraee as a diety, does not need to be dead despite what that book says.
Why? Because Eilistraee belongs to all of us.
Everytime someone will mention to me that Eilistraee is dead, I will tell them "No she isn't".
In my game, my world, in our games, in our worlds, she is very much alive and still a powerful goddess. Why?
Simple: because Wizards of the Coast has said that their over all theme of the new 4th Edition are worlds that are full of darkness, with small points of light where those that are good hold out against the encroaching blackness.
I can't see any stronger symbolism for this then Eilistraee, whose symbol of the Full Moon, is the greatest point of light in the darkness of night. She fights against the darkness of Lolth to give those small numbers of drow who are surrounded by the darkest and evil members of their race a chance. These few good drow are the points of light among their dark people, like Eilistraee is a light in the darkness of the night.
Wizards really missed an opportunity here....big time.
The greatest symmetry for their new vision was lost by some unknowable desire to get rid of one of the most popular goddesses in the Forgotten Realms.
I think that the symbolism she represents for THEIR vision of the new worlds 4th edition is based around is too valuable to just give up on and let go.
Therefore, let them have the idea that Eilistraee is dead and that we will let her go.
I wont, and you dont have to either.
Game system wise, 4th edition is not at fault. As a game in and of itself, it is a fine product.
We are talking about the lore goofs at Wizards who don't understand their audience and potential for good symbolism based off their own vision.
Enjoy the game, and use your own power and liberty to tell those that wrote this lore about Eilistraee that they were WRONG.
Eilistraee lives, in all our campaigns and hearts.
Eilistraee as a diety, does not need to be dead despite what that book says.
Why? Because Eilistraee belongs to all of us.
Everytime someone will mention to me that Eilistraee is dead, I will tell them "No she isn't".
In my game, my world, in our games, in our worlds, she is very much alive and still a powerful goddess. Why?
-Of course, in the official Forgotten Realms setting, she is (presumably).
We as GMs have the power to simply say "Eilistraee is still alive"
Show
Also, it is mentioned that those drow who worshipped Eilistraee or were Miyeritari were transformed into dark elves, and there are dark elves heading to the Underdark to shephard those dark elves to the surface.
So, what's to stop the true drow from just killing all these people?
So, what's to stop the true drow from just killing all these people?
Rinona: The notion that having even trace demonic ancestry means you are forever corrupted bothers me a lot, too. It completely goes against everything that was ever written for tieflings (and aasimar, too, for that matter). Even Half-Fiends are only supposed to be predisposed towards evil, and in rare occasions, with a great deal of work, can become good (though they will always be fighting against their nature).
I don't have any problem with saying that a fiendish bloodline is part of what drew most of them into corruption and evil in the first place, nor saying that it's a part of why they're so prone to evil. However, I think too much emphasis was placed on it as being the entirety of the reason they were under Lolth's sway, and that it was the barrier preventing them from being redeemed.
Quoted for truth.
-Well, I finished the novel. Overall, it was better than I thought it would be, considering everything I heard. I wrote a list of continuity problems, and just parts that didn't make much sense as I was reading it. Anyone want to read it?
Please post it.
Edit: NM, you did.
And the perception of drow as something to hate and fear was broken long ago by Drizzt, Liriel and other drow like them, that time will not come back, no matter what WotC attempts to do.
Or at least, the perception that drow are absolute monsters who cannot be reasoned with and can never possibly be good. On that, I agree. After 20 years of Drizzt (something WotC is all too eager to celebrate), those days are gone for good.
(2) Decapitation destroys an individual's soul: Since when? In no other Forgotten Realms novel, or D&D book, I've never seen anything like this.
Was that only in the case of being decapitated with the crescent blade, or just decapitated by anything?
Obviously, I agree that that is ridiculous.
Therefore, let them have the idea that Eilistraee is dead and that we will let her go.
I wont, and you dont have to either.
True, she isn't dead for me.
Both Eilistraee and Cavatina were both decapitated by the Cresent Blade yet only Eilistraee/Qilue was permanently destroyed while Cavatina wasnt but got to go to Arvandor.
Only "hundreds and hundreds" of drow were turned into dark elves compared to the hundreds of thousands of drow that are in the underdark. So that means that only around 1 to 2 percent of all drow were eligible to be redeemed.
Also have a problem with the number of wizards/clerics needed to reverse the spell that created the drow, even if it only effected a small number of the drow
-And, not everybody is a DM, nor does everyone run Forgotten Realms campaigns.
You do realise, that this is the Forgotten Realms forums, and that this thread is about a goddess in the Forgotten Realms?
Also, that much of the consternation here is based off the fact that people are mad about the impact that the loss of said goddess will have to their game that is in the Forgotten Realms?
Or, are you aware of these things and just yanking my chain?
I merely offered a possible solution.
CheersI remember how the Drow first came about in Fiend Folio (about the only good monster from it, Flumph anyone?) and it must be stated that the Drow were created as the antithesis of the elves, their "evil" counterpart. Whereas the Elves lived above gorund in the open forests (basically good), the Drow were the exact opposite, lived in the gorund in lightless caverns. There were no good Drow period, the only listings were from the DnD modules from G1-G3, through D1-D3 and Q1. This was from the world of Greyhawk, before Forgotten Realms came along.
Now I am not sure, which came first, FR with Eilistraee or RA Salvatore's Drizzt. But it was only then when Drizzt became popular and the books became best sellers, that players stated to like the idea of playing a Drow. I could be wrong, but, most DnD games were of good aligned characters battling evil. However, the chance to play a "cool" character (a Drow) with extraordinary abilities based upon their race became popular. This was also further legitimized, becuase it was now considered part of "canon" as this was now incorporated into FR lore. Please remember, I am thinking of the earliest releases back in the 1980's.
Personally, I was saddened by the fact that all Drow were now considered evil from now on with no hope of redemption, Eilistraee was "dead" and a small part of were now redeemed. But when thinking about the original context, the Drow were created as the evil counterpart to the good elves. Perhaps that could have handled this a bit better, but this is just a clean sweep of the house in order to reconcile eveything at once.
Just my thoughts on the matter.
You maybe could reverse the effect of the spell in so far as all non-evil "dark elves" of old - who were cast down because the Elven High Magic spell "malfunctioned" - aren't considered drow any longer. But turning an "'evil' Ilythiiri now drow" into something non-evil borders on the insane. It would be much like trying to redeem the orcs. But of what, actually?
That aside, imagine that regardless where they came from, the dark elves of old died in their thousands when cast into the Underdark and no matter what they have been beforehand, a "certain" hatred of those who committed such vile magic was virtually assured. Imagine too that 13,000 years onwards, i.e. some 100 generations later, these drow have been under the sway of Lolth and all. Would you expect that they will turn to the surface "just because"? What sort of mind-boggling, indoctrinated-dogma erasing spell would be necessary to "open the eyes" of drow who grew up in the drow cities and know virtually no other life for thousands of years - but who know pretty well who caused this all. Would they simply have an eye-raiser and see "Lolth's Treachery"? Come on! Whom do we speak about here?
You really cannot imagine my distaste for the IMHO very Christian-like missionary feeling this all creates, all this "true redemption only via me" stuff ...
I wonder how the sun and moon elves will react when they''ll see their redeemed but most hated foes knock on the gates of Evermeet or Evereska. A hundred years might not be enough for the static families of Evermeet to adapt to the coming of the old Ilythiiri castes to their homeland, even if Corellon accepts them. Ah I am getting really exited to play a redeemed one just to prove Queen Amluriel the Ilythiiri grace and power can bring a golden age to the united elves!
-These are just a few things I picked up on in this book. I am not going to mention some other gaffes, like Drow casting High Magic rituals.
(1) A Temple of Araushnee around 30,000 years old: She did not even know about the existence of Realmspace until well after she became Lolth, around the fall of Occidian. It was Kythrillia Amarillis (Sp?) that alerted her to Realmspace. If she had worshippers there already, she would have known about it. Thus, there could not have been a temple dedicated to Araushnee thatis 30,000 years old. By this point, she was already Lolth.
Aurushnee followers among the early green or dark elves could have brought with them a temple if the realms are older than 30,000 years (which has some credance according to Serpant Kingdoms).
(2) Decapitation destroys an individual's soul: Since when? In no other Forgotten Realms novel, or D&D book, I've never seen anything like this.
I have sometimes ruled destruction of the head prevents regeneration. Not sure where or if I have seen that rule it destroyes the soul...
(3) Eilistraee's banishment from Arvandor: Eilistraee was never banished from Arvandor. She willingly left the Seldarine. Furthermore, her main Divine Realm is still in Arvandor. She keeps a smaller Divine Realm in the Demonweb Pits, but spends more time in her realm in Arvandor.
She did get affected by the descent ritual before she decided to join the drow to guide them, right?
(4) Guldor Zauviir: A Wizard 20 / Archmage 2 was killed with a simple slash of his throat. Why is it that a Level 22 caster had 0 contingencies protecting him from something like this?
He lost initiative. Very deadly at those levels even with contigencies. (i.e. a high enough sneak attack hit could do that)
(6) The death of Eilistraee: From what I gathered, Eilistraee took Qilue as her avatar. The Lady Penitent killed the avatar, sure, but since when did the death of an avatar mean the death of the deity? Mystra has had avatars that were destroyed, yet she remained.
Yay for a living Masked Lady! (if you want)
Thanks for posting the list! One question:
Was that only in the case of being decapitated with the crescent blade, or just decapitated by anything?
Obviously, I agree that that is ridiculous.
-For everyone who wasn't priivy to our personal conversation, it was anyone who was just decapitated, and not just with the Crescent Blade.
Both Eilistraee and Cavatina were both decapitated by the Cresent Blade yet only Eilistraee/Qilue was permanently destroyed while Cavatina wasnt but got to go to Arvandor.
-Yes, I noticed this. Cavatina's soul was quite fine in the end. I recall (at least, I think I do) her lifting her head to her neck, and it reattaching itself to her body.
Only "hundreds and hundreds" of drow were turned into dark elves compared to the hundreds of thousands of drow that are in the underdark. So that means that only around 1 to 2 percent of all drow were eligible to be redeemed.
-Ironically, Drizzt isn't one of them. So, his soul is irredeemably evil and forever damned.
Also have a problem with the number of wizards/clerics needed to reverse the spell that created the drow, even if it only effected a small number of the drow
-Between you, me, and the wall, Drow can't use Elven High Magic, but that's another story...
You do realise, that this is the Forgotten Realms forums, and that this thread is about a goddess in the Forgotten Realms?
Also, that much of the consternation here is based off the fact that people are mad about the impact that the loss of said goddess will have to their game that is in the Forgotten Realms?
Or, are you aware of these things and just yanking my chain?
I merely offered a possible solution. Cheers
-None of which changes what I said. I don't play in the Forgotten Realms. I like the setting, but I don't have a campaign going there. I read the books, and buy the sourcebooks. I am well learned. What am I supposed to do? It's not as easy as saying, "She's alive in all our hearts and campaigns, if we let her", to paraphrase.
Aurushnee followers among the early green or dark elves could have brought with them a temple if the realms are older than 30,000 years (which has some credance according to Serpant Kingdoms).
-The Green Elves (a group that the original Dark Elves have been retconned into) did not come to Realmspace until -27,000 DR. Taking into account the current date, and subtracting 30,000 years, you come up with -28,625. There's a 1,625 year descrepancy there.
-Furthermore, as I mentioned before, Lolth was unaware of the existence of Realmspace until -24,400 DR. A temple, with worshippers, would have attracted her attention, as she would have to grant those individuals spells, listen to their prayers, manifest herself, and so on and so forth.
I have sometimes ruled destruction of the head prevents regeneration. Not sure where or if I have seen that rule it destroyes the soul...
-All that is fine, but since when has this been the case in the Forgotten Realms? Never.
She did get affected by the descent ritual before she decided to join the drow to guide them, right?
-That would have been after, not before. Lolth was banished from the Seldarine circa -30,000 DR, and Eilistraee willingly left moments after. The Descent of the Drow did not happen for another 20,000 years (-10,000 DR). But, regardless, Eilistraee quite clearly has her main Divine Realm in Arvandor, and spends most of her time in that one, rather than the one in the Demonweb Pits.
He lost initiative. Very deadly at those levels even with contigencies. (i.e. a high enough sneak attack hit could do that)
-I'm not buying it. Sure, this is a novel, and authors are allowed artistic license, but a Wizard 20 / Archmage 2 not having a single contingency spell on him? Come on. These are the Drow, who do not have a word for friends in their language, cannot trust each other, and so on and so forth. Plain old silly. I can buy it, but it's plain old silly.
Yay for a living Masked Lady! (if you want)
-Here here. I liked The Masked Lord/Lady better than Eilistraee and Vhaeraun individually. They accomplish more of their goals together than seperatley.
Drats.. I confused Lolths banishment with the Descent again. Doh!
Drizzt did mention a rising of Eilistraee's followers. But they got wiped afterwards... Wonder if that means Rino's right that the dark elves that try to get to the surface are going to get ambushed by the forsaken drow brothers and sisters.
Not so sure about that date of the first Green Elf settlers. But yeah, its still odd that she didn't notice any of her worshippers on Toril before... So I guess your right.
-The dates are 100% correct. AGHotR cites all of them.
Drats.. I confused Lolths banishment with the Descent again. Doh!
-No problem.
Drizzt did mention a rising of Eilistraee's followers. But they got wiped afterwards... Wonder if that means Rino's right that the dark elves that try to get to the surface are going to get ambushed by the forsaken drow brothers and sisters.
-Maybe, maybe not. Not all new "Dark Elves" would be followers of Eilistraee, and not all followers of Eilistraee would be new "Dark Elves".
So only those Ilythiiri and Miyeritari who didn't act completely demonic during the crown wars get redeemed... Or all currently goodly drow? Or those that had non Lolth patron dieties?
-That's anothing thing that doesn't make too much sense, but since it was in the second book, I didn't mention it.
-Anyway, those Drow who contained traces of the blood of Wendaoni (Sp?) in them are irredeemable, apparently. They are mostly Ilythiiri. Those Drow...er..."Dark Elves" who did not have traces of the blood of Wendaoni (Sp?) are redeemable, apparently. They are mostly Miyeritari, and non-Ilythiiri. Being in one group or the other doesn't really mean much, though, when Drow society taught everyone to be evil.
Personally, I was saddened by the fact that all Drow were now considered evil from now on with no hope of redemption, Eilistraee was "dead" and a small part of were now redeemed. But when thinking about the original context, the Drow were created as the evil counterpart to the good elves. Perhaps that could have handled this a bit better, but this is just a clean sweep of the house in order to reconcile eveything at once.
Just my thoughts on the matter.
Understood.
I just think trying to go back to "olden days" when drow were bogeymen (and only ever evil) is futile. Also, Drizzt is still around, he still looks like a drow (as per The Orc King), and he's still good.You really cannot imagine my distaste for the IMHO very Christian-like missionary feeling this all creates, all this "true redemption only via me" stuff ...
I'm seeing what you see. Only in this case, the "Christ-figure" (Eilistraee/Qilue) doesn't come back from the dead.
-Yes, I noticed this. Cavatina's soul was quite fine in the end. I recall (at least, I think I do) her lifting her head to her neck, and it reattaching itself to her body.
I was wondering--how did she reattach her head? Did her soul do it? If so, that would mean that there should be no fear of souls being destroyed upon decapitation, as the soul has at least a few moments to reattach his own head! Or something like that.
Nevertheless, as I said to you I've never ever heard of any rule (in any edition) that states that the soul is destroyed upon a creature's decapitation.
I am, quite frankly, outraged.
I have a community of well over 500 registered user over at http://eilistraee.com/ (note, there’s a hint in the URL there) who are now completely cut off from the Realms because of this.
But it seems WotC doesn’t want us, that we and our goddess are an embarrassment to them. Apparently Drizzt and his legion of clones aren’t special enough because of us. Apparently they’d rather have more people imitating him than having roleplayers who actually try to put worth into good-aligned drow. Apparently, we’re no longer wanted.
Well, then we don’t want WotC anymore either. What’s the point of sticking with the Realms if there’s no Eilistraee? What’s the point of sticking with D&D if there’s no Realms? What’s the point of sticking with WotC if there’s no D&D?
Sure, we could try and put her back in, try and make it work… but frankly all it takes is a single line from WotC (some official novel somewhere with Corellon saying “my daughter can never come back to us” or some such nonsense) and all that work would be for naught. And frankly, I refuse to sit on that ticking timebomb and at this point I honestly don’t see why any of you still want to. Because right now it’s Eilistraee, next time it’s something you truly care for, something which made the setting worth it for you.
If this is how WotC treats its fans, it until now dedicated supporters, then I see no reason to stick around.
Because Eilistraee was what made it worth it for me. She was what made the drow different from dark elves in every other setting. She is what added something unique for both players of good drow and evil drow. An eternal struggle between the forces of good and evil. Eilistraee was the eternal underdog, the point of light in the sea of darkness (and as such would’ve been perfect for the new 4E approach). She gave something different to drow that they had to fight for or fight against. Now they’re just all evil and some of them are weird and leave just like Drizzt.
Yes, we all knew that the sava game would end with one of the deities dead. But I honestly expected this to be in a million years or so. I expected the books to set the stage for the two deities continually fighting over the fate of the drow. I expected the last line in the last novel to be something like Eilistraee saying “your move, Mother.” That would have created a fertile ground for future drow players to find adventure in. Now instead their fate has been decided and that’s it. Game over.
Not the best way to start a new game by saying “game over”, now is it?
I also hate the split of the drow into drow and dark elves because it completely destroys the attraction there was to the struggle within the drow race to begin with. This hope for redemption, dismissed by the evil drow and the good drow trying to make their kin see the light, is what made the race so interesting. But now there’s a very clear black-and-white division “the brown-skinned ones are good and the black-skinned ones are evil”. Well sorry, but these are not the drow I signed up for.
I could keep going on and on, but really I have no words for how atrocious this move is. And every word I say will likely not accomplish anything anyway, since they’ve made up their mind and are convinced that they are right, convinced that most people won’t care. As such, at this point, I truly hope that 4E and WotC will crash and burn if only so we can say “haha, told you so”. If only to have the vague hope left that they’ll then be forced to see the error of their ways and bring the Realms back as we love it (which, and let me be clear on this, doesn’t mean that it needs to be stagnant; we were quite willing to accept the Masked Lady).
As for me, I’m boycotting further WotC product (as there’d be no point in be buying them anyway) and am strongly considering banning the use of 4E from my site.
Very, very, extremely off.
Shir’le E. Illios
High Priestess of Eilistraee
Former resident of the Forgotten Realms
Love -x-x-x-
Shir'le
I know about your community.I also hate the split of the drow into drow and dark elves because it completely destroys the attraction there was to the struggle within the drow race to begin with. This hope for redemption, dismissed by the evil drow and the good drow trying to make their kin see the light, is what made the race so interesting. But now there’s a very clear black-and-white division “the brown-skinned ones are good and the black-skinned ones are evil”. Well sorry, but these are not the drow I signed up for.
I agree, I do think the whole "transformation" plot device misses the point of why people found drow an attractive race to play in the first place.
Bear in mind, though (I'm sure you know this, but I'd like to state it anyway) that not everyone values Eilistraee as much as your community does. Where you willing to go along with the changes to the FR setting so long as Eilistraee was still around? Other people were in the same boat you are now since 4E was announced (for example, some were saddened and turned off at the death of Mystra). I myself was put off by the "new Realms" ever since I learned what was to happen, although I stopped caring about the official timeline even before that point.
I'm only bringing this up because you asked why some people are still "along for the ride". The answer is because everyone values different things about the setting.
1. 4E has devilish succubi.
2. 4E has faceless "alien" angels (this killed the aasimar too)
3. 4E has tieflings that aren't our lovely demon- or devilspawn anymore, but the children of some weird warlocks.
4. 4E made Correlon unaligned...
5. 4E has killed my favourite godess and favourite setting, that's too much....
All chars I've ever played were servants of Eilistraee, and without her the Forgotten Realms wouldn't exist anymore for me. And what the heck is this transformation crap? Drow were beautiful as they were, why change it? Redemption through different skin colours is total crap. What would we say today about a god who tries to make all black people white and blonde, or white people black and dark-haired???? O_o
I will do the same thing I did with Planescape. Ignoring the official story and only buying what I really need to reconstruct the old world in 4E (and assimilating a few good ideas like the Feywild). So, no preordering FR-stuff, I'm waiting for the reviews if anything useful is in there.
Well I care later about rewriting the story for my FR, first I have to make a Channel Divinity Feat for Eilistraee....
Now I am not sure, which came first, FR with Eilistraee or RA Salvatore's Drizzt. But it was only then when Drizzt became popular and the books became best sellers, that players stated to like the idea of playing a Drow. I could be wrong, but, most DnD games were of good aligned characters battling evil. However, the chance to play a "cool" character (a Drow) with extraordinary abilities based upon their race became popular. This was also further legitimized, becuase it was now considered part of "canon" as this was now incorporated into FR lore. Please remember, I am thinking of the earliest releases back in the 1980's.
There were only the evil drow from the few modules and the Fiend Folio. Then the Unearthed Arcana had the first stats to play as a Drow as a player. I don't remember if it had a limitation on their alignment (I don't think there was). This was well before Drizzt. There were people playing drow long before Drizzt was published in any books.
Bah, had to make a new account because they won’t allow me to post with my real one for whatever reason and after weeks of trying to get help I still haven’t so much as a word. Anyway.
-What was your old name?
What’s the point of sticking with the Realms if there’s no Eilistraee?
-All of the other great stuff is has to offer?
But now there’s a very clear black-and-white division “the brown-skinned ones are good and the black-skinned ones are evil”. Well sorry, but these are not the drow I signed up for.
-I think, right now, this is the biggest misconception.
-The "Dark Elves" aren't necessarily good. Just like Drow aren't necessarily evil. Hallistra, the Lady Penitent, would have been transformed, as she was a Melarn, a family that descended from "good" Miyeritari blood. Had she survived much past the casting that transformed her, what were the odds she would have arbitrarily turned a new leaf? Slim. Likewise, Drizzt Do'Urden is a Drow still, having come from a family that was descended from "evil" Ilythiiri blood. Yet, 100 +/- years from now, Drizzt is still the "good guy" we all know him as.
I'm seeing what you see. Only in this case, the "Christ-figure" (Eilistraee/Qilue) doesn't come back from the dead.
More distinctly, Eilistraee seems for some silly reason to be playing for small change from what I'm hearing. Christ's sacrifice was infinitely further reaching in scope. Eilistraee catches a few and abandons the rest through all future generations, ehmm, right, moving on.
Bear in mind, though (I'm sure you know this, but I'd like to state it anyway) that not everyone values Eilistraee as much as your community does. Where you willing to go along with the changes to the FR setting so long as Eilistraee was still around? Other people were in the same boat you are now since 4E was announced (for example, some were saddened and turned off at the death of Mystra). I myself was put off by the "new Realms" ever since I learned what was to happen, although I stopped caring about the official timeline even before that point.
Saddened and turned off at the death of Mystra? You have more talent for courtesy than I. My distaste for the unnecessary death of Eilistraee has nothing on my opinions of murdering Mystra.
I bet this comes as no surprise to anyone, but I am furious... And I knew it was coming.
That makes two.
Mystra and Eilistraee were two of my favorite deities in the Forgotten Realms, and now they are both gone. That of course is not all... There are other deities in my favorites list, and none of them have been left alone.
Tymora has been treated like an object to be passed around, and then meekly submits to the will of the husband Sune arranged for her.
Sune acts as if she's the goddess of politically motivated arranged marriages, and not the goddess of love. (Mind you, she's always had the rough end of the stick as far as I'm concerned... She's never been portrayed with the depth that such a deity should have.)
Sharess, just by dint of her minor status in the current Realms, is likely to be nothing more than a saint/servitor of Sune - if she actually survives at all.
Meanwhile, Helm has been killed, Tyr's good name smeared, and many other minor deities are about to loose their deific status.
One of the things that has always drawn me to the Realms is the depth and complexity of the pantheons... It always felt real and vibrant, and now... *sadly shakes her head*
I will pick up the 4e FRCG and have a flick through it to see what is what, but I am unlikely to actually purchase it now (well, not that I ever was really).
Good game, Wizards, good game.
you.Personally, I was saddened by the fact that all Drow were now considered evil from now on with no hope of redemption.
I am quite sure that is not the case. I do think that it may be more difficult to find good (or non evil) drow, but not impossible. Also, I got the impression (from comments made here, admittedly) that becoming a dark elf was a choice. Some good drow might choose not to change - for instance if they believe that staying drow would allow them to participate in drow community and help bring others back 'into the light' (which would be impossible as a dark elf). Also if the change is based on bloodlines, it is imperfect, and thus the distinction in alignment is meaningless.
I also had the impression that Drizzt is still a drow, not a dark elf.
-I think, right now, this is the biggest misconception.
-The "Dark Elves" aren't necessarily good. Just like Drow aren't necessarily evil. Hallistra, the Lady Penitent, would have been transformed, as she was a Melarn, a family that descended from "good" Miyeritari blood. Had she survived much past the casting that transformed her, what were the odds she would have arbitrarily turned a new leaf? Slim. Likewise, Drizzt Do'Urden is a Drow still, having come from a family that was descended from "evil" Ilythiiri blood. Yet, 100 +/- years from now, Drizzt is still the "good guy" we all know him as.
Well, this is all quite complex.
If only people - and I mean all people concerned, designers and gamers alike - would see it that way. Ed Greenwood (Elminster in Myth Drannor) as well as Richard Baker (Last Mythal) gave us an "objective" view on the Elven race, i.e. that they are nearly as liable to fall to evil as e.g. the human are. Which is not the notion you'd get from say the PHB, "common LotR-tainted knowledge", and most other sourcebooks. I always point out that society forms a character and even if that society is regarded as "evil" by others, a being living therein needs not to be "evil" to the core or being "evil" 24/7/365. So I tend not to lay much weight on alignments as given in the MM et al. Obviously, if people happening by and speak about their LG drow crusaders of "you name it", I tend to be a bit hesitant to their "objectivity" on the drow, but suum cuique ... at their own table.There should always be room to manoeuvre and neutral people like Valas Hune or Rryld, Zaknafein and the like should always be possible and used. You need to to go the complete role-reversal and having "good" drow running about though. IMHO, many of the Eilistraeen priests as depicted in WotSQ and LP behaved more like neutral characters than good ones and that is, giving their heritage, fair enough. The same should apply to the "new dark elves". Mind you, there won't be a brainwash going on within them as well as the surfacers, nor will people always be able to distinguish between proper drow and "dark elves". Hence, animosities due to lack of understanding will make sure that there will be a certain distance between the others surfacers and the "dark elves", at least as much as there is between the former and the wild elves.
Of course, one could very well envisage a racial cleansing initiated by the "true drow" and thus the number of "dark elves" may not be that high anyway.
favorite goddess:
mystra
sehanine moonbow
mielikki
sune
selune
red knight
eilistraee
favorite gods
Bahumut
Helm
tempus
corellon larethian
labelos enloth
eravan (who's last name i cant spell or pronounce from memory, it was his prank on me)
the death of helm, mystra and eilistraee were bad, and the retconing combination of the feywild's goddess of the moon and the goddess of toril's moon is what ticks me off.
so i guess in a way im in shirle's boat, but then my insticts were telling me it was coming.
you step on multiple toes, they will remember you for it. best to leave some things be.
the drow were and always at best more chaotic then evil, but the extreme side they went was a betrayal of their cousins, and a betrayal of themselves.
best thing now is to wait and see, as i said if i dont like it, i wont buy it, if i do like it ill buy it.
oh and im going to say that one of my drow characters asked to be able to switch forms between a dark elf and a drow
More distinctly, Eilistraee seems for some silly reason to be playing for small change from what I'm hearing. (...) Eilistraee catches a few and abandons the rest through all future generations, ehmm, right, moving on.
Those are exactly my feelings. For a goddess, an entity that has existed for thousands of years, Eilistraee appears to have made an incredibly short-sighted decision. One that you'd perhaps expect from a being with an INT of 10 or below, not the supposedly goddess-level INT she's supposed to have. But then, the designers seem to have handwaved away all of that in an effort to make the deities seem simplistic and possessed of -very- human flaws. Ever since the ToT, the gods have been portrayed as rash and blind to any perspective other than their own (vision that is blind to everything except their own portfolio), and usually possessed of minimal or negligible good sense.
Saddened and turned off at the death of Mystra? You have more talent for courtesy than I. My distaste for the unnecessary death of Eilistraee has nothing on my opinions of murdering Mystra.
Yep, the whole thing has left a bitter taste in my mouth, which is reinforced every time someone says "look at this cool new thing in 4E!" Overuse of the word cool is getting on my nerves. Particularly because of all the uncool things that one must accept to get there.
Bear in mind, though (I'm sure you know this, but I'd like to state it anyway) that not everyone values Eilistraee as much as your community does. Where you willing to go along with the changes to the FR setting so long as Eilistraee was still around? Other people were in the same boat you are now since 4E was announced (for example, some were saddened and turned off at the death of Mystra). I myself was put off by the "new Realms" ever since I learned what was to happen, although I stopped caring about the official timeline even before that point.
I'm only bringing this up because you asked why some people are still "along for the ride". The answer is because everyone values different things about the setting.
I realize that, yes. And I must admit that we were willing to go along with the changes as long as they left Eilistraee alone. We weren’t happy about many of them, but we were willing to try and find a place in the new Realms, going so far as to accept a drastic change to our goddess into the Masked Lady (which we weren’t quite happy with, but could work with).
Perhaps I should’ve spoken out sooner. Perhaps I’m falling victim to my own fault; I didn’t care enough earlier and now people don’t care enough when it’s my turn.
But that’s what I’m saying and that is why I’m amazed people are still along for the ride. Because it might not have been what you (in the general sense) valued last time, it might not have been what you valued this time, but it’s likely to be what you value next time and then there will be nobody left to fight for you.
Though perhaps people are hoping as I did and that they’ll be lucky, that what they value is left alone. But I ask you, isn’t that the wrong approach to take to a changed setting? Shouldn’t the changes excite you instead of fill you with dread and fear that you’ll lose what you value?
I mean, I understand people’s complaints with the old Realms (I don’t agree with all or even most of them, but I do understand). But isn’t that what there are already several other settings for? Don’t like 115 deities? Sure, there’s plenty of other settings that don’t have those. Don’t like that the entire map is filled out with wonderful detail for DMs to use? Sure, there are plenty of other setting giving you continents let to fill in yourself. Don’t like there being a goddess for good-aligned drow and want drow to be purely evil? Sure, play in Greyhawk (for example) where the only drow deity is Lolth.
Eilistraee was what set the Forgotten Realms drow apart from the drow (/dark elves) in every other setting. And perhaps that’s why they removed her, perhaps they didn’t want them to be different. But ask yourself, do you really want to stay in a setting that’s being re-designed to be pretty much like every other generic fantasy setting?
-What was your old name?
ShirleIllios or such (could be an underscore between the names). I’m guessing something went wrong with activation when accounts got moved over from the old forums to the new ones (I hadn’t posted on the old forums in years though).
-All of the other great stuff is has to offer?
I hope for you that this “other great stuff” stays around and that they’re not removing it like they’ve done with all the things I considered great stuff (like Eilistraee). Because for me I seriously don’t see any great stuff left in the Realms.
And really, it’s surprising that you’re willing to sit on this ticking timebomb that’s the new Forgotten Realms. What if they next decide (in this release or somewhere further down the line) that what you consider great is a bother to them and needs to be removed with a sledgehammer?
-I think, right now, this is the biggest misconception.
-The "Dark Elves" aren't necessarily good. Just like Drow aren't necessarily evil. Hallistra, the Lady Penitent, would have been transformed, as she was a Melarn, a family that descended from "good" Miyeritari blood. Had she survived much past the casting that transformed her, what were the odds she would have arbitrarily turned a new leaf? Slim. Likewise, Drizzt Do'Urden is a Drow still, having come from a family that was descended from "evil" Ilythiiri blood. Yet, 100 +/- years from now, Drizzt is still the "good guy" we all know him as.
I think you’re misunderstanding my misconception, or something.
In the Lady Penitent novels a concept of “redemption” was introduced as getting rid of the demonic taint, something which seems to require divine intervention (through the worship of Eilistraee). This doesn’t necessarily make one good, and having the taint doesn’t necessarily make one evil. It’s just that without Eilistraee there seems to be no possibility anymore for redemption, making any ‘good’ drow always partly demonic and always under Lolth’s sway (I wonder what’ll happen to Drizzt if ever he dies, but it wouldn’t surprise me if Lolth then lays some rightful claim on him).
The whole transformation of untainted drow into “dark elves” just makes matters worse.
Saddened and turned off at the death of Mystra? You have more talent for courtesy than I. My distaste for the unnecessary death of Eilistraee has nothing on my opinions of murdering Mystra.
For me it’s the other way around. I don’t like what they did to Mystra one bit (if nothing else, hadn’t she been killed often enough already? But then we probably could fill another few pages with what’s wrong with what they did there). But I’ve always lived for more in the drow part of the Realms and as such removing Eilistraee has a much greater impact on me and my community.
I mean, what are we now to do? Remove ourselves from the Realms entirely? That’s exactly what we’ll be doing, removing ourselves from the Realms, from D&D and from Wizards. And I’d rather not be forced to do that.
It seems that as far as the Realms goes it is indeed game over.
Love -x-x-x-
Shir'le
And really, it’s surprising that you’re willing to sit on this ticking timebomb that’s the new Forgotten Realms. What if they next decide (in this release or somewhere further down the line) that what you consider great is a bother to them and needs to be removed with a sledgehammer?
-I'm not.
I think you’re misunderstanding my misconception, or something.
In the Lady Penitent novels a concept of “redemption” was introduced as getting rid of the demonic taint, something which seems to require divine intervention (through the worship of Eilistraee). This doesn’t necessarily make one good, and having the taint doesn’t necessarily make one evil. It’s just that without Eilistraee there seems to be no possibility anymore for redemption, making any ‘good’ drow always partly demonic and always under Lolth’s sway (I wonder what’ll happen to Drizzt if ever he dies, but it wouldn’t surprise me if Lolth then lays some rightful claim on him).
The whole transformation of untainted drow into “dark elves” just makes matters worse.
-Drow can still be "good" (Drizzt), and Dark Elves can still be "evil".
-And, anyway, the entire series and pivotal events were based on incorrect information and continuity errors, so truthfully, the whole ordeal should be ignored, as it's simply impossible to begin with, from the get go.
-Drow can still be "good" (Drizzt), and Dark Elves can still be "evil".
QUOTE]
WHat's the point in splitting them in half then?
WHat's the point in splitting them in half then?
-Your guess is as good as mine. That it's all impossible, based on previous lore we have, of course, is telling, don't you think?
-Your guess is as good as mine. That it's all impossible, based on previous lore we have, of course, is telling, don't you think?
Can it be that "They" just won't make playable "drow" and you are forced to play a "Dark-elves" in the same manner that is expected by "Them" that Orcs get played as half-Orcs?
-And, anyway, the entire series and pivotal events were based on incorrect information and continuity errors, so truthfully, the whole ordeal should be ignored, as it's simply impossible to begin with, from the get go.
Quoted for truth, which is what I've been saying.
I won't let some 'canon' that is based off incorrect information and dramatic incompatency ruin my game or universe if I decide to have Elistraee in it.
Can they honestly think we should follow such glaring errors in both continuity and good plot even in relation to their own vision of what the new game should be?
Eilistraees Symbol is a Full moon = point of light
The Surrounding Night = Pervading darkness that surround the Full Moon/point of light
Elistraee = point of light
Lolth = pervading darkness
Few good drow = points of light
The rest of the drow = pervading darkness
Am I the only one who sees the symbolism here that Wizards so glaringly missed?
Isn't this what they were shooting for in the vision for their new game?
(...)
Elistraee = point of light
Lolth = pervading darkness
Few good drow = points of light
The rest of the drow = pervading darkness
Am I the only one who sees the symbolism here that Wizards so glaringly missed?
Isn't this what they were shooting for in the vision for their new game?
Of course this makes complete sense. But then, it gets in the way of their "destroy all extra gods and goddesses" policy. And someone is on a gleeful killing spree, fully endorsed by WotC, so they're going to do it regardless of the lack of sense involved.
You'd think that those lesser gods and demigods were on the WotC payroll and they needed to cut the extra "chaff".
More distinctly, Eilistraee seems for some silly reason to be playing for small change from what I'm hearing. Christ's sacrifice was infinitely further reaching in scope. Eilistraee catches a few and abandons the rest through all future generations, ehmm, right, moving on.
Very true, on all counts.
Saddened and turned off at the death of Mystra? You have more talent for courtesy than I. My distaste for the unnecessary death of Eilistraee has nothing on my opinions of murdering Mystra.
*chuckles* The thing is, I got my anger at Mystra's death out of my system a while back, and at this point, most of the regulars here already know what my opinion about it is.
But that’s what I’m saying and that is why I’m amazed people are still along for the ride. Because it might not have been what you (in the general sense) valued last time, it might not have been what you valued this time, but it’s likely to be what you value next time and then there will be nobody left to fight for you.
Trust me, Shirle, I feel for you. I'm upset (though not surprised at all) at Eilistraee's fate. I also understand what you are getting at, here.
It's very true that the people who are happy with the Realms now might someday be upset at a change in the setting that adversely affects something they like. However, it is my belief that since that hasn't happened yet, they should be left to enjoy what they enjoy until that day comes (if it ever comes). In other words, let them decide on their own time whether or not to stick with the setting.
I respect their likes and dislikes--all I expect from them (on these boards, anyway) is for them to show me basic respect and not insult me or those who feel as I do just because we are not on board with the changes like they are (and I've seen that happen).
Though perhaps people are hoping as I did and that they’ll be lucky, that what they value is left alone. But I ask you, isn’t that the wrong approach to take to a changed setting? Shouldn’t the changes excite you instead of fill you with dread and fear that you’ll lose what you value?
I agree, which is one reason (if not the reason) why I've decided not to be concerned about the "official timeline" anymore.
I hope for you that this “other great stuff” stays around and that they’re not removing it like they’ve done with all the things I considered great stuff (like Eilistraee). Because for me I seriously don’t see any great stuff left in the Realms.
Just to let you know, LK dislikes many of the changes, too.
His point, if I understand it, was similar to mine--there is more to the FR than Eilistraee, and some people are going to be indifferent (or even happy, believe it or not) about what's happened to her. Or, maybe they will be sad, but it won't be enough to put them off the setting permanently.
For me, her fate is just one more nail in the coffin (if the casket hasn't been put in the ground already).
Perhaps the point is to re-align the struggle between Corellon and Lolth. Thus Corellon takes over the struggle to protect those drow who became dark elves as well as possibly bring more in...well, forget the last part due to the silly stuff about there being no more redemption after Eilistraee's sacrifice.
"Oops, we're all out! Come back next edition."
It was a decent book but most everything was shoehorned and...*groans*...all those glaring errors. Ugh.
As for three sourcebooks and that's it, I suspect part of it also has to do with not having a dedicated FR team, per se, or a dedicated Eberron design team, etc...having everyone working on what's available and moving on to the next project...and probably a need for fewer designers? Perhaps? Also there is one advantage to the 3-sourcebook idea: Less 'book creep'. This may have been on their minds as people too often get into this notion that in order to 'get' the Realms and enjoy it they must buy X number of books, which can be a turn-off.
II mean, what are we now to do? Remove ourselves from the Realms entirely? That’s exactly what we’ll be doing, removing ourselves from the Realms, from D&D and from Wizards. And I’d rather not be forced to do that.
You don't have to--your own version of the Realms (such as the version used by your community) does not need to conform to the official one.
As for three sourcebooks and that's it...
Two sourcebooks and one adventure is all that's planned.
Quoted for truth, which is what I've been saying.
I won't let some 'canon' that is based off incorrect information and dramatic incompatency ruin my game or universe if I decide to have Elistraee in it.
Can they honestly think we should follow such glaring errors in both continuity and good plot even in relation to their own vision of what the new game should be?
Eilistraees Symbol is a Full moon = point of light
The Surrounding Night = Pervading darkness that surround the Full Moon/point of light
Elistraee = point of light
Lolth = pervading darkness
Few good drow = points of light
The rest of the drow = pervading darkness
Am I the only one who sees the symbolism here that Wizards so glaringly missed?
Isn't this what they were shooting for in the vision for their new game?
I'm with you hehe. I too saw the symbolism and have been doing a
and 
ever since.And doesn't lore also say that Drow with blue or lavender eyes means that they have surface elves in their ancestry? Kinda blows out that theory with Drizzt since he can't be "redeemed" due to his family having the demonic taint.
And redemption does not require a god. It is what is in your heart. The god is a symbol to realize that it is possible to redeem your self and be accepted. That is what Melikki did for Drizzt. She showed him that his choices made it possible for her to accept him. Not that she made it possible for him to change or follow his heart, but that there was acceptance and belief that it was possible and that he wasn't alone.
And having a demonic/devilish ancestor means you have no choice? Guess that goes against core, since Tieflings can be any alignment.
Bah, so much lore ignored, total disregard for personalities and motives, and boy, does Eilistraee come off looking like a dolt, "I'll sacrifice myself for the few instead of surviving for the many". Sheesh!!
SO many not nice things to say, but Momma didn't raise a churl.
Quoted for truth, which is what I've been saying.
-Right. As I said, in your (general sense), you can do whatever you want. But, what we have here is official right here. Unfortunately, due to all of the incorrect information, and so on and so on.
His point, if I understand it, was similar to mine--there is more to the FR than Eilistraee...
-Right.
And redemption does not require a god. It is what is in your heart.
Indeed!
Bah, so much lore ignored, total disregard for personalities and motives, and boy, does Eilistraee come off looking like a dolt, "I'll sacrifice myself for the few instead of surviving for the many". Sheesh!!
Yup. And now that the "redeemed" elves are surface elves, they can start the cycle of hatred all over again. Why treat the drow with any sort of kindness or respect anymore? After all, they aren't "saved"--even Eilistraee didn't think they were worth the effort, so why should the "saved" elves care?
Finally we can slaughter drow children with a clear conscience!
That's correct. They were a "necessary sacrifice" in the eyes of Eilistraee (of all deities) and need not be considered.
Finally we can slaughter drow children with a clear conscience!
And can be hunted down for it by the insane Paladin of Hoar... Regardless of Race, I would never condone killing a child. There's a saying I've taken up recently, "Don't punish the Son for the sins of the Father."
And can be hunted down for it by the insane Paladin of Hoar... Regardless of Race, I would never condone killing a child. There's a saying I've taken up recently, "Don't punish the Son for the sins of the Father."
I guess that wouldn't have trucked with the canon Eilistraee. If you were an Illithyri drow and happened not to follow Eilistraee, you weren't in her salvation plan due an accident of birth.
I guess that wouldn't have trucked with the canon Eilistraee. If you were an Illithyri drow and happened not to follow Eilistraee, you weren't in her salvation plan due an accident of birth.
Don't most Male Drow call gender a "accident of birth"? Granted, I find Drow no longer able to be redeemed total BS. For every "Good Drow", there's at least 3-6 "Evil Surface Elves". I normally follow canon very closely, but that? I think I'll throw it off to the wayside where it belongs.
Finally we can slaughter drow children with a clear conscience!
-Meh, that was always the case.
I can almost hear the Devs' yelling "There can only be 1" as they axe everything in the Realms to "simplify" it.
And doesn't lore also say that Drow with blue or lavender eyes means that they have surface elves in their ancestry? Kinda blows out that theory with Drizzt since he can't be "redeemed" due to his family having the demonic taint.
And redemption does not require a god. It is what is in your heart. The god is a symbol to realize that it is possible to redeem your self and be accepted. That is what Melikki did for Drizzt. She showed him that his choices made it possible for her to accept him. Not that she made it possible for him to change or follow his heart, but that there was acceptance and belief that it was possible and that he wasn't alone.
And having a demonic/devilish ancestor means you have no choice? Guess that goes against core, since Tieflings can be any alignment.
Bah, so much lore ignored, total disregard for personalities and motives, and boy, does Eilistraee come off looking like a dolt, "I'll sacrifice myself for the few instead of surviving for the many". Sheesh!!
SO many not nice things to say, but Momma didn't raise a churl.
Do note that this "demonic" stuff is a recent developement. Essentially, a demon lord (Wendonai) was sent to the Ilythiiri some 20,000 years ago to sway them towards Lolth, which he did. To do so, he also "played consort" to many matrons back then and afterwards, namely in Lady Penitent, claimed that he tainted the drow race. Obviously, he did not bed thousands of dark elves back then and spread his ancestry amongst them, he swayed them towards "evil", i.e. his "taint". What is implied with the irredeemable stuff is, IMHO, the fact that those who were already evil when the Descent happened are beyond redemption these days. It does not mean that they cannot be neutral or good drow (which simply depends on a characters life), but that they will not become the "new dark elves". For the latter apparently come from formerly non-evil dark elves, i.e. those good and neutral dark elves living in Miyeritar et al, who were banished from the surface alongside with their "evil" kin during the Descent - for the High Magic spell ran out of hand. This is not to say that there were no evil Miyeritar dark elves, of course.
Also, I am puzzled at how the book seems to imply that goodly drow were cut off from Arvandor before, even though Eilistraee had her realm there.
Too many inconsistencies in such a short time...
Do note that this "demonic" stuff is a recent developement. Essentially, a demon lord (Wendonai) was sent to the Ilythiiri some 20,000 years ago to sway them towards Lolth, which he did. To do so, he also "played consort" to many matrons back then and afterwards, namely in Lady Penitent, claimed that he tainted the drow race. Obviously, he did not bed thousands of dark elves back then and spread his ancestry amongst them, he swayed them towards "evil", i.e. his "taint".
-Of course, none of this is really remotely possible, when you think about it. That blood would be so diluted after thousands and thousands of years, and by the third generation, it's no longer even affecting your alignment. Meh, I don't even want to think about it.
Also, I am puzzled at how the book seems to imply that goodly drow were cut off from Arvandor before, even though Eilistraee had her realm there.
-Someone didn't do their research. ;)
Especialy when we had a short story in Realms of the Elves where the followers of Shevarash kill an elf that was with them and decided to protect the drow child and both go to arvandor after they are killed.
Actually, they were both stuck on the Fugue Plane. I had serious problems with that story, too, because it took the lore about needing a deity, very literally:
Show
When the protagonist loses his son, his wife kills herself so the demons wouldn't "get him" (that is, she'd be there to protect him). The story was based around the idea that if you're too young to have chosen a deity, then no deity will accept you into their realm--even the Seldarine won't protect the souls of elven babies! And then, the same thing happens later in the story--a baby drow is killed, and the protagonist dies with him. The protagonist is there to protect the baby drow soul on the Fugue Plane.
I would have thought the Seldarine would protect the souls of little elven babies. And heck, Eilistraee could protect little innocent drow babies.
I'm not saying we are but I think "they" think we are....
Is a whole new game
Not that I wanna start an negative issue here but I DO belive WotC is making a much simpler game and that we're not supposed to "overthink" this kinda stuff.
I'm not saying we are but I think "they" think we are....
-There's the problem. ;)
But wouldn't killing babies be especially evil this way since you're (in addition to killing a helpless innocent victim) practically sacrificing a soul to the demons?
Well, I'm done with the official realms, now I have a lot of work to do, rewrite history, make celestial Archons, powers for the clerics of all the killed FR gods, Aasimar, the different elf races, and a very good explanation what Eladrin and the Feywild are.....
Yeah, that too was an overstretch, especially when an elf's mother always taughts his child during pregnancy the elven language, who are the Seldarine and the customs of the elves.
Then why the hell does it take them a century to mature?
Because those 100 years for them are the 18 years we have. Both physicaly and psychicaly. And just because you know everything doesn't means you are mature to employ it.
The power of the gods comes from us worshiping them. The way the book was written it shows that there is no choice and it can't happen unless a god allows it, since they have the power, and that is why we worship them. Therefore everything is fated to be a certain way.
Also, DNA trumps personal choice.
:headexplo 
:hoppingma *vomit*(They need to get a smilie for this one) So why even bother to adventure and fight evil? You can't change anything. Our choices are written in the "passion play", there is no rehearsal, just follow the script.
*cue Jethro Tulls' "Chateau d'Isaster"*
Because those 100 years for them are the 18 years we have. Both physicaly and psychicaly. And just because you know everything doesn't means you are mature to employ it.
No wonder Mystra's Chosen are/were human. And the best mages in general. Hell, best everything.
No wonder Mystra's Chosen are/were human. And the best mages in general. Hell, best everything.
Absolutely false, among the elves you have very powerful mages, Queen Amlauril, The Srhinshee, Coronal Eltargrim, the High Elven Mages who can cast spells no human can, lots of archmages. And Mystra's Chosen all have elven blood because elves are closer to the Weave and Mystra had many elven chosen too, the seccond chosen was an Elf. Humans may have individualy powerful arcanists, but elves have the most regarding quantity/quality, and Sun Elves are very driven individuals who never stop to perfect their Art (they are the most powerful clerics and wizards of Faerûn).
Absolutely false, among the elves you have very powerful mages [snip]
I said best.
The only way you can compare them is see how powerfull an elf and a human can become in the natural span of their respective lives. A 900 years Sun Elf wizard is going to kick the 90 years old Human Wizard every day of their lives, especially when there are Sun Elves who are able to learn magic at the speed of humans (like Araevin Theshuur, who became the youngest High Mage in the history of Faerün)
-Comparatively speaking, the Elven race has produced more magi, and more powerful magi, of those magi, than the Human race has.
Numbers mean nothing when talking about the best. The best mages in Faerûn are human (or what once resembled humans).
The only way you can compare them is see how powerfull an elf and a human can become in the natural span of their respective lives.
And the elf loses. Humans just are better. They're more versatile, faster learners, more adaptable, better looking, etc.
Numbers mean nothing when talking about the best. The best mages in Faerûn are human (or what once resembled humans).
-Okay, whatever you want. :whatsthis
Or are you saying that Corellon didn't create elves in his own image...?
He's just an obnoxious troll. And I have a couple of Hellballs prepared
Might I suggest that your own Signature is quite possibly one of the more antagonistic ones I've seen in the last few days.
I mean, we get it. you don't like 4e. You are angry at the changes to the realms. I'm truly sorry for that. By the sounds of it, you are working elsewhere to maintain a 3.75(Pathfinder) version that ignores the new stuff. Awesome for you. why don't you advertise that project in a positive fashion rather than bashing those of us who are truly enjoying the new changes?
Honestly, I'd be interested to see a project supporting a fork in the continuity - but if it is anchored by people who are so incredibly bitter, I think that it will have some difficulty ever getting /new/ people to look at it. Which is unfortunate.
Good luck to you.
Just because you think is antagonist doesn't means it's not true, and since truth is more important for me than politeness the signature stays where it is.
Either way, I really hope you find a fun and engaging world to RP in - whether in 3.5/Old Realms, or 4e and New Realms does not matter to me. Play that which you love!
-Or, are they the "same deity, different face"...(But, even in this case, which face is prettier? :shifty
Gods don't have race.
Outsider? Kiaransalee was a drow before ascending, then there's the Time of Troubles bunch and some others. But in any case, I'd term "outsider" as a race too.
so what happened to Q'alyrn Melarn? did he make it out alive
and did it explain why Qilue was acting so ruthless?
Did any member from the group that attacked the undead temple from Storm of the Dead get ressurected? Mainly Laurana and her daughter?
The only way you can compare them is see how powerfull an elf and a human can become in the natural span of their respective lives. A 900 years Sun Elf wizard is going to kick the 90 years old Human Wizard every day of their lives, especially when there are Sun Elves who are able to learn magic at the speed of humans (like Araevin Theshuur, who became the youngest High Mage in the history of Faerün)
Karsus, Ioulaum, Larloch, pre-divinity Azuth or Savras
Feel free to pick the appropriate age of elf to defeat any of the aforementioned every day of their lives or find a new boast. Natural span of respective lives is also by the way a moot point since human mages have this silly tendency to extend their lives. I freely admit that elven magi are powerful but let's leave propaganda out of this. Eltargrim himself had finite tolerance for his court automatically dismissing human casters, stating that magics he had personally witnessed in use at a magefair would have shamed many elven sorcerers. True he did not see anything to match High Magic but I'd be amused to see casters casually demonstrating spells over level 9 at a magefair, those powerful enough to get past level 9 spells generally have better ways to spend their day than write "shoot me" on their backsides.
so what happened to Q'alyrn Melarn? did he make it out alive
and did it explain why Qilue was acting so ruthless?
Did any member from the group that attacked the undead temple from Storm of the Dead get ressurected? Mainly Laurana and her daughter?
Outsider? Kiaransalee was a drow before ascending, then there's the Time of Troubles bunch and some others. But in any case, I'd term "outsider" as a race too.
-It could be said that when a mortal becomes a deity, he/she/it loses his/her/its sex. The deity retains the gender characteristics, though.
so what happened to Q'alyrn Melarn? did he make it out alive
-Yes.
and did it explain why Qilue was acting so ruthless?
-Yes.
Did any member from the group that attacked the undead temple from Storm of the Dead get ressurected? Mainly Laurana and her daughter?
-Yes.
Karsus, Ioulaum, Larloch, pre-divinity Azuth or Savras...
-Most powerful Elven NPCs over the years who would fit the bill are simply vague allusions to, and nothing more.
-It could be said that when a mortal becomes a deity, he/she/it loses his/her/its sex. The deity retains the gender characteristics, though.
-Yes.
-Yes.
-Yes.
could you go into a little more detail. I assume that we are allowed to discuss novels seein as this thread exists
could you go into a little more detail. I assume that we are allowed to discuss novels seein as this thread exists
we are allowed to discuss novels but be generous with spoiler tags
No wonder Mystra's Chosen are/were human. And the best mages in general. Hell, best everything.
Some were elves. One was a drow. There's at least one half-elf. And those are just the ones we know about.
I've read on CK that Mystra's had Chosen of various races.Not only are elves extremely slow learners, they're also physically more fragile. And they have pointy ears. And no body hair! They're like... worms. Yuck.
That is absurd!
And yet, funny.
could you go into a little more detail. I assume that we are allowed to discuss novels seein as this thread exists
so what happened to Q'alyrn Melarn? did he make it out alive
-Yes. He became a Dark Elf, and "lived happily ever after", so to speak.
and did it explain why Qilue was acting so ruthless?
-Yes. The spirit of the Balor Wendoani (Sp?) was possessing her.
Did any member from the group that attacked the undead temple from Storm of the Dead get ressurected? Mainly Laurana and her daughter?
-Yes. I recall a specific mention or two or Laurana (Sp?).
-Yes. He became a Dark Elf, and "lived happily ever after", so to speak.
Did he ever hook up with Rowaan or her mom?
Did he ever hook up with Rowaan or her mom?
-Nothing is said about the character much past he actually transforms.
-I'm not.
My apologies. I think in my anger over the changes I didn’t fully realize that you weren’t happy with them either. So just read the “you” in the general sense.
-Drow can still be "good" (Drizzt), and Dark Elves can still be "evil".
I realize that, but as explained this concept of “redemption” is a different thing. Yes, I think it’s rather stupid and only exists to give ‘redeemed’ drow a good feeling about themselves (“now you’re truly good since now you are ‘redeemed’ and rid of the demonic taint”), but that’s how it is. If we have to accept one in the official setting (Eilistraee being dead) then we have to accept the other too.
Personally I think they both shouldn’t be there and that that split in the two races is utter garbage which destroys that which made the whole thing interesting in the first place.
-And, anyway, the entire series and pivotal events were based on incorrect information and continuity errors, so truthfully, the whole ordeal should be ignored, as it's simply impossible to begin with, from the get go.
Oh, I agree. But they’re not ignoring it… they’re making it the official version.
Can it be that "They" just won't make playable "drow" and you are forced to play a "Dark-elves" in the same manner that is expected by "Them" that Orcs get played as half-Orcs?
I seriously doubt that because drow are simply waaaay too popular to play. I think you might see some footnote somewhere that lists “dark elves” as another flavour of “elves” (like some of the other subraces will get bundled up in it) and “drow” to be a separate race just like Eladrin are.
Eilistraees Symbol is a Full moon = point of light
The Surrounding Night = Pervading darkness that surround the Full Moon/point of light
Elistraee = point of light
Lolth = pervading darkness
Few good drow = points of light
The rest of the drow = pervading darkness
Am I the only one who sees the symbolism here that Wizards so glaringly missed?
Isn't this what they were shooting for in the vision for their new game?
Oh, you’re far from the only one. When they talked about their new vision being “points of light” I rejoiced, since that’s exactly what Eilistraee represents for the drow as well. But I guess that the drow aren’t allowed to have any points of light beyond Drizzt.
I think though that they’re gravely underestimating how popular Eilistraee is. Of course, I might be overestimating it too due to my involvement with the deity.
It's very true that the people who are happy with the Realms now might someday be upset at a change in the setting that adversely affects something they like. However, it is my belief that since that hasn't happened yet, they should be left to enjoy what they enjoy until that day comes (if it ever comes). In other words, let them decide on their own time whether or not to stick with the setting.
If someone tries to skate on dangerously thin ice I feel it is our duty to warn them and not just let them find out on their own when the ice gives way under them and they die in the freezing water. I feel it is our responsibility to make it clear to them just how thin the ice is and that they’re likely to sink through, even if there’s an iceskate vendor sitting next to the ice saying that it’s fine (after all, he’s trying to sell skates, not ensure that people who already bought his skates survive).
Now, I doubt that anyone will die from WotC’s thin ice (not even Eilistraee or any of the other deities). But just because they keep trying to sell people skates doesn’t mean we shouldn’t warn people away from it.
Because if this is how they treat their fans today, then just imagine how it’ll be when they feel they’re not making any money anymore from those who aren’t (and fans not only make them money by continuing to buy materials even long past them needing it, they’re also instrumental in building a community and spreading the word).
If that is how they want it, then I truly do hope that this 4E ship sinks and takes WotC with it.
Just to let you know, LK dislikes many of the changes, too.
Alright, not too up-to-date with the acronyms used here… LK?
You don't have to--your own version of the Realms (such as the version used by your community) does not need to conform to the official one.
I know that. But the official version of the Realms is what binds this community together. It’s what makes it so that I can talk to people I’ve never met before and discuss things in the Realm without having to explain anything first (I don’t have to explain who Eilistraee is beyond perhaps a small reminder). The official version is what people see and has them looking for more information, which is what brings them to my community and thus makes them part of the larger D&D/FR community. The official version is what dictates what further materials we’ll get, which tend to be far more professionally created and tested (I personally suck at balancing much of anything) and what further official stories we get.
Look at it like this… I could create a deity called “Ymra” or whatever and she’d be the best deity I could imagine (for me). But it doesn’t mean anything outside the few people I get in on it (not to say that this is without value or anything). You’ll never get people saying “I read about this deity called Ymra in a novel or heard about it in a Baldur’s Gate game and I got curious, and that’s how I got to your community; I’m so happy to have finally found players we enjoy Ymra as I do”.
I don’t just exist in my own personal campaigns and stories… I exist in the larger Forgotten Realms community too. But now the official Forgotten Realms tell me that I’m not wanted anymore because, what, my deity is an embarrassment and what she is too complex for the simpletons they want to draw in to understand? Que?
Or maybe it really is just that their cash-cow Drizzt isn’t special enough if drow can get divine support to break free of Lolth’s influence.
I know I can do in my own games and settings what I want to do. But if I wanted to do that I wouldn’t be with the Forgotten Realms to begin with. Heck, I probably wouldn’t even be playing D&D (and just stick with the first game system I came across that worked well enough).
And doesn't lore also say that Drow with blue or lavender eyes means that they have surface elves in their ancestry? Kinda blows out that theory with Drizzt since he can't be "redeemed" due to his family having the demonic taint.
I think you’re assuming that the demonic taint weakens if it’s mixed with other blood or such.
But I think it’s more like a genetic disease or such; as soon as you get even a little bit of it you get it at full strength and thus spread it at full strength toy our own offspring. Thus Drizzt can have surface elven blood and still have the demonic taint since he got the taint from his drow ancestry; the taint is just corrupting the surface elven blood as well.
Of course, by this reasoning it’d be very improbable that there’d be any pure-blood Miyeritari elves left as they’d likely have some drow somewhere in their ancestry. And this would also raise the question of any surface elves possibly having (and thus spreading) the demonic taint.
The whole thing is just incredibly problematic and takes away from the specialness of people finding redemption in that it’s now just some blood impurity that needs to be filtered out.
And redemption does not require a god. It is what is in your heart. The god is a symbol to realize that it is possible to redeem your self and be accepted. That is what Melikki did for Drizzt. She showed him that his choices made it possible for her to accept him. Not that she made it possible for him to change or follow his heart, but that there was acceptance and belief that it was possible and that he wasn't alone.
I haven’t read the last book (and I’m not going to), but from what I understand it literally says that redemption is no longer possible without Eilistraee now.
And having a demonic/devilish ancestor means you have no choice? Guess that goes against core, since Tieflings can be any alignment.
The taint has nothing to do with alignment (beyond perhaps that you need to be good to get rid of it as you need that goodness to fight the evil of the taint). Though I can imagine that the taint might strongly predispose one towards evil.
Not that I wanna start an negative issue here but I DO belive WotC is making a much simpler game and that we're not supposed to "overthink" this kinda stuff.
Ah yes, because thinking would ruin the fun of a roleplaying game. :roll:
Now I'm really happy, that I remained in the Planescape cosmology
Just wait until they get around to updating the Planescape setting to 4E (which is a distinct possibility after they’ve done Forgotten Realms and Eberron).
The best you can hope for, I think, is that they might learn from the backlash of the fans regarding their changes to the Realms and take a bit more care with Planescape. But I wouldn’t count on it.
Love -x-x-x-
Shir'le
I realize that, but as explained this concept of “redemption” is a different thing. Yes, I think it’s rather stupid and only exists to give ‘redeemed’ drow a good feeling about themselves (“now you’re truly good since now you are ‘redeemed’ and rid of the demonic taint”), but that’s how it is. If we have to accept one in the official setting (Eilistraee being dead) then we have to accept the other too.
Personally I think they both shouldn’t be there and that that split in the two races is utter garbage which destroys that which made the whole thing interesting in the first place.
-All I know is, going by what has always been, when Drizzt dies, Mielikki will guide his soul to her realm, being as that he's been a true worshiper of Mielikki for years and years now. So, all this stuff about redemption and what not is really irrelevant. The deity that the individual worships takes his/her/its soul. Case closed, that's that, period. "Lolth's Taint"- and I use that very, very loosely- has no bearing or impact anywhere.
Oh, I agree. But they’re not ignoring it… they’re making it the official version.
-Unfortunatley. But, I know for one that any future work I do will not be involving the great majority of these things, that, as I said, are canonically "invalid", and thus, unacceptable.
The taint that had made the drow drow gave them a sense of evil doing. You guys should eat that up for it has no gaming mechanices at all. Only a novel drive. That coupled with their release from their attraction to the under ground Frauzess (sp?) they will come to the surface and be goody.
If someone tries to skate on dangerously thin ice I feel it is our duty to warn them and not just let them find out on their own when the ice gives way under them and they die in the freezing water. I feel it is our responsibility to make it clear to them just how thin the ice is and that they’re likely to sink through, even if there’s an iceskate vendor sitting next to the ice saying that it’s fine (after all, he’s trying to sell skates, not ensure that people who already bought his skates survive).
Now, I doubt that anyone will die from WotC’s thin ice (not even Eilistraee or any of the other deities). But just because they keep trying to sell people skates doesn’t mean we shouldn’t warn people away from it.
Because if this is how they treat their fans today, then just imagine how it’ll be when they feel they’re not making any money anymore from those who aren’t (and fans not only make them money by continuing to buy materials even long past them needing it, they’re also instrumental in building a community and spreading the word).
If that is how they want it, then I truly do hope that this 4E ship sinks and takes WotC with it.
Once again, I feel for you and find no fault with the overall spirit of your posts. However, you admit yourself that no one is going to die from what WotC does with the FR setting, so I don't think it's a good idea to compare this situation to "thin ice" (a case that actually is dangerous and possibly fatal).
I mentioned a while back in this thread that I'm not blithely neutral about these changes, but I've since gotten my anger out of my system. I've tried to stay mindful of the fact that some people might have fun with this new setting (and I truly do see it as a NEW setting), and I wouldn't want to take that away from them. If I'm having fun with something, I wouldn't appreciate people warning me away from it just because it doesn't work for them (and again, this is just a game, nothing life-threatening, so with all due respect I don't think the "thin ice" analogy works here).
I know that. But the official version of the Realms is what binds this community together. It’s what makes it so that I can talk to people I’ve never met before and discuss things in the Realm without having to explain anything first (I don’t have to explain who Eilistraee is beyond perhaps a small reminder). The official version is what people see and has them looking for more information, which is what brings them to my community and thus makes them part of the larger D&D/FR community. The official version is what dictates what further materials we’ll get, which tend to be far more professionally created and tested (I personally suck at balancing much of anything) and what further official stories we get.
Hey, point well taken--and I'm upset over that very thing, myself. I enjoyed reading stories about the Chosen of Mystra, and I don't expect to see such stories anymore, unless they take place in the past (which is something I won't hold my breath for--you don't move the setting forward 100 years to publish stories about the past, after all). My point was that you don't have to totally abandon what you like about this setting just because that's what WotC is doing. If you'd rather leave it behind than be content with your Realms being non-canon to a large degree, that is of course your choice.
One last thing. I know all too well that it can be easy to take all this personally. My advice (which you can take or leave) is to try not to take it personally. Whether the FR designers are making wise or unwise decisions, I highly doubt that they are setting out to hurt anyone. As I said before, they are changing a LOT of things and it's upsetting a LOT of people, not just fans of Eilistraee.
The whole ridding of taint thing does surve a purpose.
Only within a tremendously silly context.
First of all, I like Lisa Smedman’s work. I enjoy her writing, and I enjoyed the Lady Penitent as fantasy yarns quite well. (I did have some problems with the ending, however, which I'll get to in a second, though I’m not sure all of them are entirely Ms. Smedman’s fault.)
I liked the Dark Seldarine, especially Eilisteraee and Selvetarm, but I can accept their removal and the paring down of drow gods to Lolth and Ghaunadaur. I actually thought Eilisteraee got a fitting ending doing what she always wanted to do
Now, on to my issues...
- Only a few hundred drow became dark elves? I mean, I guess I can buy that there weren’t enough of sufficiently “pure” Miyertari lineage, but there were really that few Eilisteraee worshippers?
- Of those few hundred saved, the entire Sshamath College of Divination was among them?
- Cavatina asked the celestials about the drow who weren’t transformed and they basically shrugged and said, “Sucks to be them!”? Well, isn’t that nice. But upon rereading the very end, I think it's not quite as bleak as all that. Corellon’s taken Eilisteraee's place at the sava board and his goal is the same: destroy Lolth and redeem the drow. But in the meantime, what about those drow who didn’t transform but may want to reject Lolth? Do they just go to Corellon?
- So how does this all fit into the AGHotR entry about Lolth trying to subsume Ghaunadaur but being unable to? I looked it up, and that's supposed to happen in 1479. The story took place in 1478, though, right?
- So Seluzar got his selu'kiira (I had to go back and double-check), but did those two other Sshamath Masters get their selu’kiira or was it going to happen after the ritual?
- What about all the Miyertari Sharn? Are they allowed to turn back into dark elves now that the curse is lifted? Hopefully Blackstaff Tower gives us a little insight in that, and, if we're very good, how Q'arlynd et al. are doing in the City of Hope.
Overall, as I said, I enjoyed the series. I'm sure Lisa Smedman was given a "To Do" list on what to accomplish, and I think she did her best while still writing an entertaining story with interesting characters.
The part of Corellon taking over...eh. Not like he wasn't fighting Lolth before.
From the sound of it Ghaunadaur was chased out of the pantheon, so if he still exists that's why...I mean, really, what we saw in the last book was a bunch of his nutty drow cultists literally go off the deep end to their dooms. Thus Ghaunadaur goes back to being the lord of slimes, aboleths, and/or whatever. They can still go back to him, just that the idea of him being mainly a 'drow' god is dust since he was, after all, an interloper.
I dunno....considering how Eilistraee handed things over to Corellon before she went off to her WotC-mandated death...it'll never feel 'right'. In the end, however, if there are those who believes then she lives on somewhere, regardless of WotC.
So, after a century's worth Corellon's daughter can come back as a celestial herald of his, or something. Not as a redeemer but in a different role, perhaps.
LK=Lord Karsus.;)
-Yes? What?
The taint that had made the drow drow gave them a sense of evil doing. You guys should eat that up for it has no gaming mechanices at all. Only a novel drive. That coupled with their release from their attraction to the under ground Frauzess (sp?) they will come to the surface and be goody.
-Not really. Lolthite Drow society was what made Drow evil. Take a Drow child out of that environment, and raise him/her elsewhere, and you'll get a very different personality.
- Only a few hundred drow became dark elves? I mean, I guess I can buy that there weren’t enough of sufficiently “pure” Miyertari lineage, but there were really that few Eilisteraee worshippers?
-So it seems. I don't believe that these new "Dark Elves" need to be Eilistraee worshippers, however. If the Lady Penitent had survived all of this, she would have transformed as well, being as that she had the same blood as her brother. She was, for obvious reasons, not a devout worshiper of Eilistraee.
Of those few hundred saved, the entire Sshamath College of Divination was among them?
-I don't believe it was all of the College of Divination, but plenty of them, plus all of Q's apprentices, which, apparently, is why he was "attracted" to them. Yeah...
Cavatina asked the celestials about the drow who weren’t transformed and they basically shrugged and said, “Sucks to be them!”? Well, isn’t that nice. But upon rereading the very end, I think it's not quite as bleak as all that. Corellon’s taken Eilisteraee's place at the sava board and his goal is the same: destroy Lolth and redeem the drow. But in the meantime, what about those drow who didn’t transform but may want to reject Lolth? Do they just go to Corellon?
-One's soul goes to whatever their patron deity is. Which is what makes all of this so pointless. A Drow who worships Corellon Larethian, upon death, goes to Arvandor. A Drow who worships Lolth, upon death, goes to the Demonweb Pits. A Drow who worships Mielikki, upon death, does to her domain. This is what makes this "taint" thing so...'blunder headed. It has no impact anywhere, on anything.
So how does this all fit into the AGHotR entry about Lolth trying to subsume Ghaunadaur but being unable to? I looked it up, and that's supposed to happen in 1479. The story took place in 1478, though, right?
-13, not 14. But, good point. Interesting. Apparently, this is all unrelated. Or, at least, not the entire picture. Perhaps, now that Ghaunadaur's avatar is lost in that maze, Lolth will make her move.
So Seluzar got his selu'kiira (I had to go back and double-check), but did those two other Sshamath Masters get their selu’kiira or was it going to happen after the ritual?
-Apparently not, as they left. Perhaps after the story.
What about all the Miyertari Sharn? Are they allowed to turn back into dark elves now that the curse is lifted? Hopefully Blackstaff Tower gives us a little insight in that, and, if we're very good, how Q'arlynd et al. are doing in the City of Hope.
-Blackstaff Tower might shed some illumination. That said, however, I wonder how much of everything that happened in this book Steve Schend was privy to. R.A. Salvatore (seemingly) was not in on it, so...
Karsus, Ioulaum, Larloch, pre-divinity Azuth or Savras
Since you throw in top-notch NPCs into the equation, people who were meant to be what they are/were ... we hardly can give you an appropriate answer. That said, we hardly know anything of those Sun Elf High Mages of the Empire of Aryvandaar who actually wrote the Nether Scrolls which enabled Nethereil to rise to power (unless I mess up history there). The sun elf wizard the hero of the Last Mythal series got his knowledge from was way beyond his level and in general, those responsible for the High Magic rituals shaping Faerûn during the Crown Wars were immensly powerful. They never turned to divinity though, as the Elven deities would hardly accepted them amongst themselves.
All hypothesis, of course.
Just noted while scanning Cormanthyr that most if not all "clans" and "houses" of Myth Drannor were actually led by patriarchs. Which gives you a clue why the drow are led by matriarchs.
-One's soul goes to whatever their patron deity is. Which is what makes all of this so pointless. A Drow who worships Corellon Larethian, upon death, goes to Arvandor. A Drow who worships Lolth, upon death, goes to the Demonweb Pits. A Drow who worships Mielikki, upon death, does to her domain. This is what makes this "taint" thing so...'blunder headed. It has no impact anywhere, on anything.
I feel compelled to point out that Wendonai is a very powerful demon. Demons it should be noted, are notorious liers, deceivers, corruptors, etc; It pains me that Smedman got dragged into such a cruddy situation with the outcome of this series.
I'm just gonna wash my hands of this "new Realms", in fact the only product of WotC (Hasbro) I'd ever buy is a Sava game, it sounds really fun to me
Yes, I realize its similar to chess, but it is also very different with crazy rules and such.The whole ridding of taint thing does surve a purpose.
The taint that had made the drow drow gave them a sense of evil doing. You guys should eat that up for it has no gaming mechanices at all. Only a novel drive. That coupled with their release from their attraction to the under ground Frauzess (sp?) they will come to the surface and be goody.
I didn't like the whole taint thing, but I did actually kinda like the faerzress explanation. At least that's some explanation for why all the drow suddenly went underground (and fairly close to the explanation I'd come up myself, just without directly linking it to faerzress).
But I was kinda hoping that faerzress would be removes altogether so that all drow would be more inclined to come to the surface. But then that'd probably make the setting too drow heavy.
I wouldn't even have minded if only those who got redeemed would lose the connection to faerzress. But it needs to be something that remains open for all to achieve (so that there's something to work for for good drow) and it shouldn't change the appearance of the good drow into something that makes them an easy target and disables them from doing their work.
I mean, Eilistraeen drow were already redeemed (taken the silly redemption explanation from the novels) so what's the point of making them look different too? It's utter racism from the deity who should be least inclined to it, because now somehow being 'drow' isn't good enough?
However, you admit yourself that no one is going to die from what WotC does with the FR setting, so I don't think it's a good idea to compare this situation to "thin ice" (a case that actually is dangerous and possibly fatal).
It's an exaggerated analogy to make a point. I was just saying that it's right to warn people that their 'fun' can disappear out from under them at any moment turning it into anguish. As such I'd advice anyone to look for their fun elsewhere (as that fun is certainly not going to be any less and doesn't have near the same risk).
I've tried to stay mindful of the fact that some people might have fun with this new setting (and I truly do see it as a NEW setting), and I wouldn't want to take that away from them. If I'm having fun with something, I wouldn't appreciate people warning me away from it just because it doesn't work for them
If people aren't mindful of my enjoyment, then why should I be mindful of theirs? I've been mindful of people's enjoyment for all my life, including being very supportive of the Forgotten Realms and other D&D product (like Eberron). And apparently what it gets me is a setting disappearing out from under me and the one thing I truly, deeply loved being utterly destroyed on a whim (or, worse yet, to make a lame character more special).
If I'd come to a new setting, a new game, and the developers had a tendency to destroy people's fun then I'd want to be warned of that so I can find my enjoyment elsewhere. I'm doing nothing different in this case: warning people away from Wizards of the Coast because apparently they have absolutely no consideration for the enjoyment of their fans (or they'd at the very least declare this whole debacle void). There's plenty other fishes in the sea (like Pathfinder, for example) and WotC is far from the only place to find it.
My point was that you don't have to totally abandon what you like about this setting just because that's what WotC is doing. If you'd rather leave it behind than be content with your Realms being non-canon to a large degree, that is of course your choice.
I'm not leaving anything behind, I'm sticking with Eilistraee. It's WotC who is cutting her out of the Realms and thus making the Realms meaningless to me.
Though we might be on board with the Forgotten Realms Vault and see if we can put Eilistraee in their saved version of the Realms.
I wish I had more time to write, because I'd love to write stories centered around followers of Eilistraee and such. Then at least I could keep such stories alive for others.
Whether the FR designers are making wise or unwise decisions, I highly doubt that they are setting out to hurt anyone.
Yet they're also completely unresponsive and utterly unsympathetic when we tell them that they are indeed deeply hurting us. I'd love to go in a discussion with them over why they are wrong in doing this and hope to change their minds in taking this course of action (though of course they do need to be open for such, which is probably unfair to ask since I wouldn't accept any outcome where we're not still left with Eilistraee at the end). They've seemed to make up their minds, however, despite people repeatedly telling them that they're wrong. And that makes them arrogant and stupid.
And I don't think I'd want to play a game made by people who are arrogant and stupid.
But again, I think Wizards is gravely underestimating Eilistraee's popularity. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if her popularity was close to Lolth's to begin with (and she's certainly more popular than Corellan Larethian I'm sure).
An eternal battle between the powerful, evil Lolth against the underdaog point-of-light, good Eilistraee would've made for amazing stories and adventures and incredibly fertile grounds for many interesting characters. Something people other than players of drow can enjoy too (I mean, what hero hasn't ran into a small band of Eilistraeen drow needing aid in their time).
Bah.
Love -x-x-x-
Shir'le
Just wait until they get around to updating the Planescape setting to 4E (which is a distinct possibility after they’ve done Forgotten Realms and Eberron).
The best you can hope for, I think, is that they might learn from the backlash of the fans regarding their changes to the Realms and take a bit more care with Planescape. But I wouldn’t count on it.
*g* That's what I'm trying to explain to you (my name in your forum is Navarion). They already did to Planescape in 3E what they did now to the Forgotten Realms. They destroyed most factions in a dragon article, but there were enough people who homebrewed feats, skills and rules to make the great wheel work in 3.0 and 3.5. I don't accept the changes to Sigil and I don't accept the death of Eilistraee, but that's no reason to play with THAC0. I like the system of 4E, and I will make it work with the background of the old Editions. I've already made a half-dragon-race and I'm trying to make player templates that allow things such as baelnorn without upsetting the balance. And as soon as I get behind the rules for monster creation I will remake the old celestials and I would kill (a Lolth priestess) for an inspiration how to make a channel divinity feat for Eilistraee.
Creator races penned the Nether Scrolls as far as I'm aware actually...
-Correct. The Sarrukh.
I feel compelled to point out that Wendonai is a very powerful demon. Demons it should be noted, are notorious liers, deceivers, corruptors, etc; It pains me that Smedman got dragged into such a cruddy situation with the outcome of this series.
-None of that matters, however. Not to sound rude but: Wendonai is a powerful Demon. Okay, that's nice. How does that change the fact that a soul goes to the domain of it's patron (unless the souls bargains with a Demon/Devil)?
If people aren't mindful of my enjoyment, then why should I be mindful of theirs? I've been mindful of people's enjoyment for all my life, including being very supportive of the Forgotten Realms and other D&D product (like Eberron).
-And, that same argument is used "against" your views.
Yet they're also completely unresponsive and utterly unsympathetic when we tell them that they are indeed deeply hurting us. I'd love to go in a discussion with them over why they are wrong in doing this and hope to change their minds in taking this course of action (though of course they do need to be open for such, which is probably unfair to ask since I wouldn't accept any outcome where we're not still left with Eilistraee at the end). They've seemed to make up their minds, however, despite people repeatedly telling them that they're wrong. And that makes them arrogant and stupid.
And I don't think I'd want to play a game made by people who are arrogant and stupid.
-Forrest Gump always said "stupid is as stupid does".
But again, I think Wizards is gravely underestimating Eilistraee's popularity. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if her popularity was close to Lolth's to begin with (and she's certainly more popular than Corellan Larethian I'm sure).
-Hardly. Eilistraee is a lesser deity for a reason. She has a small (but seemingly fanatical) fanbase, made of a small niche of people (seemingly), but it's hardly what you seem to be envisioning.
No idea, I haven't read anything about drow after WotSQ.
-Well, that'd be something, you know, to be determined in the future, not now. ;)
-Yes? What?
I was just explaining to Shirle that "LK" is your set of initials.
But I was kinda hoping that faerzress would be removes altogether so that all drow would be more inclined to come to the surface. But then that'd probably make the setting too drow heavy.
It also wouldn't jive with the 4E drow design, which keeps the race in the Underdark.
If people aren't mindful of my enjoyment, then why should I be mindful of theirs? I've been mindful of people's enjoyment for all my life, including being very supportive of the Forgotten Realms and other D&D product (like Eberron). And apparently what it gets me is a setting disappearing out from under me and the one thing I truly, deeply loved being utterly destroyed on a whim (or, worse yet, to make a lame character more special).
Are you aware that the statement that you responded to was about what my personal policy is, and not what I was telling you to do? In the end, you can do what you will.
Though we might be on board with the Forgotten Realms Vault and see if we can put Eilistraee in their saved version of the Realms.
You probably would succeed in doing that, since most people (if not everyone) involved in that project are unhappy about Eilistraee's official fate.
Yet they're also completely unresponsive and utterly unsympathetic when we tell them that they are indeed deeply hurting us. I'd love to go in a discussion with them over why they are wrong in doing this and hope to change their minds in taking this course of action (though of course they do need to be open for such, which is probably unfair to ask since I wouldn't accept any outcome where we're not still left with Eilistraee at the end). They've seemed to make up their minds, however, despite people repeatedly telling them that they're wrong. And that makes them arrogant and stupid.
In any case, the cold truth is that the books are published--her death is canon, and it still would be even if one of the designers happened to say, "Actually, yeah, I really wish we hadn't gone ahead with this plot point..." Whether the designers are sympathic or not (and I do think Rich Baker is actually a pretty nice guy, even though I don't always agree with him), would it really change anything? Saying sorry wouldn't change the fact that the books are published. And it likely wouldn't make us any happier, either. I know I wouldn't be any happer.
That's not to say WotC could never bring Eilistraee back, but I certainly wouldn't hold my breath for that.
Take care,
RF
Been a while since he's done that, give the man a break, he probably just had to get it out. :D
-Good point. But, we were making such progress. So much time since the last "outburst".
I know this may be way off in thinking but what if Corellan was actually taking Eilistraee's place completely. What I mean by that is offering redemption to the other drow that were still tainted by Lolth? Maybe he considers it a reclamation of his people you know like welcoming home wayward children. What do you guys think.
-The problem with that is that Corellon Larethian has always offered Drow a place in Arvandor. Drow who worshiped him, Drow worshiped Eilistraee, Drow worshiped other members of the Seldarine. They were all allowed into Arvandor upon death, into whatever their deity's respective Divine Realm was. Thus...nothing is changing.
-None of that matters, however. Not to sound rude but: Wendonai is a powerful Demon. Okay, that's nice. How does that change the fact that a soul goes to the domain of it's patron (unless the souls bargains with a Demon/Devil)?
I'll try to clarify
Wendonai could have been lying about how the taint determines where a soul goes when someone dies. This lie is spread to Cavatina then to Qilue, then to Eilistraee. For some reason, that escapes me, they forget he is an exceptionally powerful demon and believe him, which prompts Eilistraee to come to the wrong conclusion on how best to achieve redemption for the drow. This is still problematic on many levels, but it's one possibility. For one, it means that powers aren't smart enough to see through demonic bs...
I'll try to clarify
Wendonai could have been lying about how the taint determines where a soul goes when someone dies. This lie is spread to Cavatina then to Qilue, then to Eilistraee. For some reason, that escapes me, they forget he is an exceptionally powerful demon and believe him, which prompts Eilistraee to come to the wrong conclusion on how best to achieve redemption for the drow. This is still problematic on many levels, but it's one possibility. For one, it means that powers aren't smart enough to see through demonic bs...
-Well, of course he was lying. The entire concept of a taint in one's soul has absolutely no basis anywhere. When a person dies, their patron deity (if any) comes and picks them up. That's all there is to it.
-That said, the entire idea that Eilistraee believed what he said, via Cavatina, is just plain silly. Eilistraee is the one doing the picking up of those souls and spirits coming to her domain! Know what I mean?
-The problem with that is that Corellon Larethian has always offered Drow a place in Arvandor. Drow who worshiped him, Drow worshiped Eilistraee, Drow worshiped other members of the Seldarine. They were all allowed into Arvandor upon death, into whatever their deity's respective Divine Realm was. Thus...nothing is changing.
I'd like to see and read that in print before believing it.
I'd like to see and read that in print before believing it.
-It's not that difficult:
A) Eilistraee's realm was in Arvandor. The souls of her worshipers go to her domain upon death. In Arvandor. Thus, Corellon Larethian allows the souls of Drow into Arvandor.
B) Corellon Larethian himself had Drow worshipers. The souls of those worshipers go to his domain upon their deaths. In Arvandor. Thus, Corellon Larethian allows the souls of Drow into Arvandor.
-All of that is in Demihuman Deities. There is nothing new about this, folks. All old news.
This whole series is what many of you have already stated, Wizards attempt of ruining FR. I think they see a downward trend of players going elsewhere for play and are seeking an out to discontinue the line. There were so many stories that had so much potential that were just ignored. The Imiskari were returning to the surface, Khelaban gave his life to turn the Moor lush and green again thus rebuilding the elven kingdom that was there...those were just two of my favorite plots. Wizards says they are doing this to make things easier for new players to come in and play. Frankly I never thought it was a hard concept to understand to begin with. There are other worlds that are "easier" if FR is to complicated. Eborran and Greyhawk are both still available.
Good business practice would be to keep the loyal customers and hope they bring in new business. Now days more and more players are turning away from "paper and pencil" rp and going to stuff like World of Warcraft and some of the other online RRPGs. It would be wise not assume that your actions would bring in new blood when those who have not grown up with FR will pick your game over WoW. Keep the people who have filled your pockets with money for ages happy and we will continue to do so. Destroy our beloved world and we too will turn to other avenues to entertain ourselves. I for one will not give any more money to the murders of FR once all the 3rd edition novel series run through. I know my voice is small and will not dent their pockets but to those who call me foolish I give you this quote:
"Never doubt a small group of committed people can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."
PS...You want to rekindle Forgotten Realms how about put out a good movie to garner interest. You can't tell me that as good as Lord of the Rings and Chronicles of Narnia have done in the box office that FR doing one of Drizzt, Elminster, Artemis, Aralyn or one of the countless other great characters wouldn't make bank.
-The entire concept that getting one's physical head physically lopped off somehow destroys their soul is something completely foreign and unheard of, as I stated in my list, earlier.
Indeed. I was under the impression a deity needed to be on their own plane of existence when challenged, as they couldn't send anything more than an avatar to the Prime Material Plane except under very special circumstances (ala Time of Troubles). With that being said, it's a big If: If
a mortal is strong enough, if they have a powerful weapon (as in artifact level), if the deity chose to face them, if one could wade through their minions to get to them, if they were lucky enough, etc. etc. et-fraken (Battlestar Galactica reference)-cetera...but no, she takes over Qilue to cleanse her so Halisstra gets a two-for-one special.
Get real, WotC.
It makes me wish the Realms could withstand a few visits from a certain Time Lord in a blue box just to fix this.
I've seen better story plotting from an eight year old.
-It's not that difficult:
A) Eilistraee's realm was in Arvandor. The souls of her worshipers go to her domain upon death. In Arvandor. Thus, Corellon Larethian allows the souls of Drow into Arvandor.
B) Corellon Larethian himself had Drow worshipers. The souls of those worshipers go to his domain upon their deaths. In Arvandor. Thus, Corellon Larethian allows the souls of Drow into Arvandor.
-All of that is in Demihuman Deities. There is nothing new about this, folks. All old news.
Difficult it ain't, if you imply a LOT. I hadn't ask if it wasn't at least complicated. You see, Demihuman Deities hardly speaks of Arvandor, but Ysgard and Svartalfheim*, when concerned with Eilistraee. Regarding Corellon, you need to read between the lines too, as he does have a few "dark elven" clerics (though no timescale is being given and that may even refer to folk of ancient Miyeritar and not exactly "drow" - if you get what I am implying here?!) and he's still residing in Arborea in there. Faiths & Pantheons mixed it up a bit and the PGtF made that complete with the new cosmology. Hence I asked for specific sources saying that drow (not "just" dark elven) souls go to Arvandor. Demihuman Deities does not, though you may imply it when reading between the lines. I was hoping for "new" lore.
Going by the new FR cosmology, of course, lots of drow souls enter Arvandor, as they have shifted Svartalfheim in there.
Seriously. She will return if someone wants her to come back to fill out some new role. If RAS or someone else with some $$ clout wants to do something with her or if managment says shes in then shes back.
-The entire concept that getting one's physical head physically lopped off somehow destroys their soul is something completely foreign and unheard of, as I stated in my list, earlier.
It's not just the fact that their heads were getting lopped off, but the fact that it was done with the Crescent Blade which is an artifact. Artifacts, of course, can do "special" things like destroy souls if that was their created purpose.
Having said that, the Crescent Blade was broken and then repaired - and the repair was done by Lolth, who may have changed its properties somewhat. Additionally, Wendonai's essence was hiding out in the Crescent Blade. So it wasn't exactly the same Crescent Blade as created by Eilistraee.
That said, I find that I dislike the "reordering" of deities and the ham-handed transformation of the Realms for 4E -so- much that there's no way that I'm going to buy the 4E Realms. I can play happily in my own version of the Realms that never suffered the stupidity of the Time of Troubles, or these ridiculous Warcraft imports. It's also very likely that Ascendancy of the Last is the very -last- book from WotC that I will buy. I'm just -that- disinterested and disgusted with what they've done. Good job, designers! You've lost a customer for 4E, and for your novels.
Very interesting... So Eilistraee had a domain in Ysgard called Svartalfheim? Isn' that the former homedomian of Araushnee and perhaps other demigods in the ancient dark elven seldarine? The domains of Correllon used to be in Ysgard aswell, nay? So in a sense the dark elves already went to Correllons domains. I recall that Arvandor in the FR cosmology was rebuild out of a piece of the domain of the abandoned Giant pantheon (the Arborea analogy in the realms right? *sigh* where is Gray when you need him). So it might still be novel for dark elves to be accepted in Arvandor as they used to leave the great tree cosmology to go to Ysgard and now can find a way to the closerby Seldarine realms.
Well, they used the Great Wheel sort of thing for the Realms too. Corellon and the other Elven deities resided in Arborea and had their own realm called Arvandor in there (it seems). Araushnee was having her realm there, though I have no idea how that was called.
Since Eilistraee emigrated from Arvandor alongside Araushnee, Vhaeraun et al, her home in Ysgard did not belong to Arvandor and on Ysgard it was called Svartalfheim (there was another one there, whose name escapes me right now).
Ysgard, BTW, was also home to Selûne's realm, the Gates of the Moon (which sounds familiar, doesn't it?). During the shift to 3RE (PGtF), Eilistraee's realms was moved back to Arvandor though, which is a bit strange due to her exile and closeness to the Gates of the Moon's prime goddess. Have to say that I did not notice this beforehand though.
The great tree gave me the impression all drow eneded up in the demonweb pits, except all Eilistraeans ended up in a realm the Dark Maiden had secured for herself. It also had a link to Arvandor through there so this way they eventually could end up in Arvandor, but the initial location of a drow petetioner is always the Demonweb Pits.
Current lore is messing up alot of the path of souls.
Much easier to use the greet wheel in cases such as these.Indeed. I was under the impression a deity needed to be on their own plane of existence when challenged, as they couldn't send anything more than an avatar to the Prime Material Plane except under very special circumstances (ala Time of Troubles). With that being said, it's a big If: If
a mortal is strong enough, if they have a powerful weapon (as in artifact level), if the deity chose to face them, if one could wade through their minions to get to them, if they were lucky enough, etc. etc. et-fraken (Battlestar Galactica reference)-cetera...but no, she takes over Qilue to cleanse her so Halisstra gets a two-for-one special.
Get real, WotC.
-Correct. Mystra has had avatars of her's destroyed, and yet, she survived.
She probably is not dead. RPGs are like Comic Books, nobody dies forever.
-Uncle Ben is still dead.
It's not just the fact that their heads were getting lopped off, but the fact that it was done with the Crescent Blade which is an artifact. Artifacts, of course, can do "special" things like destroy souls if that was their created purpose.
Having said that, the Crescent Blade was broken and then repaired - and the repair was done by Lolth, who may have changed its properties somewhat. Additionally, Wendonai's essence was hiding out in the Crescent Blade. So it wasn't exactly the same Crescent Blade as created by Eilistraee.
-I haven't read the novel in a few weeks now, but I seem to recall this being mentioned as a general principle, and not just with the Crescent Blade. I might be misremembering something, admittedly.
-But, in the end, Cavatina was beheaded, and yet, the very next page shows her soul, so, either way, this notion does not seem to be true.
-I haven't read the novel in a few weeks now, but I seem to recall this being mentioned as a general principle, and not just with the Crescent Blade. I might be misremembering something, admittedly.
-But, in the end, Cavatina was beheaded, and yet, the very next page shows her soul, so, either way, this notion does not seem to be true.
That's why I mentioned it. To me, it seemed like the other characters were jumping to a conclusion based on previous information (or perhaps a misinterpretation of the Crescent Blade's abilities at the time).
I think the author tried to keep it "open" for the readers, in a sense, even though 4E changes required what they did of her story.
Normally though, I think that if a god retains enough worshippers, they should be able to come back(or something like them should be born).
As for the humans vs. elves debate. IMO elves learn much more slowly in their own society where they are treated like kids with over-protective parents, but raised by humans I think they would grow pretty fast.
And regarding elves having produced more mages overall. I think the Netherese had/have a much higher ratio of people becoming mages.. its just that most humans never grow up in places where they would have the opportunity to be exposed to magic at an early age or have a chance to train in it... Also I think that the level of education for most humans is lower than the level of education in places like Evermeet, so that people who aren't driven or lucky would never have an opportunity to grow as much mentally with regard to the scholarly arts.
In general, the depiction of the Eilistraeens from virtually day one of the series makes a good read, for they are (by lore now) far more "neutral" than good and all those converts show clear indications that they are indeed drow by birth - given their way of thinking and e.g. chosing a "consort". (Hm, that chap is apparently a really good one (Nightshadow) and knows his stuff. Young and healthy too. Maybe I take him later on. Uhm ... after I ask him, of course.)
Mystra's avatar was never attacked by anything unusually powerful... Also we do have that instance of Helm imprisoning her avatar and thereby all of her so apparently an avatar is a good focus of the god's existence to attack.
-Which is neither here nor there. I was not thinking of the Time of Troubles, though, but the event in the Elminster Novel (Was it Making of a Mage, or Temptation of Elminster? Don't remember which.)
I would assume that e.g. hardly anyone ever had a clue how the Pit of Ghanadaur and the surrounding area looked like?
-Let's see...There was some information in Demihuman Deities (Ghaunadaur and Eilistraee's entries), and the Undermountain book, but other than that...
-Let's see...There was some information in Demihuman Deities (Ghaunadaur and Eilistraee's entries), and the Undermountain book, but other than that...
... a few lines in Dragon 176, who were mostly C&P'ed into DD. Indeed!
BTW, for those interested, that Dragon features the full pic of my avatar, whom the not-to-be-forgotten WizO_BigSister allowed me to use ... after I won a contest on here, of course.
I don't accept the changes to Sigil and I don't accept the death of Eilistraee, but that's no reason to play with THAC0. I like the system of 4E, and I will make it work with the background of the old Editions.
I've nothing in general against 4E and am sure that it could've been a fine system, but supporting it is supporting the people who made these changes and that I simply cannot do.
4E is far from the only possibility for making our settings survive. In fact, it's probably easier at this point to take the setting over to Pathfinder than to try and fit it into 4E.
Then again I'm in general more one for free-form roleplaying, meaning that I don't need a 'system' at all. And yet I still kept buying the D&D books to read more information on Eilistraee (yes, I've bought entire sourcebooks and magazines just for a single page on her). No longer.
-And, that same argument is used "against" your views.
Oh, I realize that. But I wasn't taking anything away from anyone by asking my deity to remain.
-Hardly. Eilistraee is a lesser deity for a reason. She has a small (but seemingly fanatical) fanbase, made of a small niche of people (seemingly), but it's hardly what you seem to be envisioning.
There's a difference between number of IC worshipers and number of OOC fans.
Heck, there's only one Drizzt, but he has an incredibly large following (which personally I really don't get, but there you have it).
And as I said before, maybe I'm wrong. But it definitely feels to me like WotC are gravely underestimating the number of fans the deity has. In my view they had it right when they put her in the FRCS's main list of deities (together with Lolth and before any and all elven deities, including Corellon Larethian).
It also wouldn't jive with the 4E drow design, which keeps the race in the Underdark.
I think we've established by now that the 4E FR are pretty much to be ignored.
Are you aware that the statement that you responded to was about what my personal policy is, and not what I was telling you to do? In the end, you can do what you will.
It's generally my personal policy as well... people can do/enjoy whatever they want as long as they don't hurt others in the process.
Problem is, that in this they are hurting others (namely me for example). It feels like they're supporting the Spanish Inquisition... need to get rid of all good drow who aren't Drizzt clones.
In any case, the cold truth is that the books are published--her death is canon, and it still would be even if one of the designers happened to say, "Actually, yeah, I really wish we hadn't gone ahead with this plot point..." Whether the designers are sympathic or not (and I do think Rich Baker is actually a pretty nice guy, even though I don't always agree with him), would it really change anything? Saying sorry wouldn't change the fact that the books are published. And it likely wouldn't make us any happier, either. I know I wouldn't be any happer.
That's not to say WotC could never bring Eilistraee back, but I certainly wouldn't hold my breath for that.
I would hope at this point that they admit that they're making a big mistake and simply say that everything from Lolth's Silence onwards (though I kinda like the fact that the Demonweb Pits are a realm on their own) is being ignored and no longer considered canon.
Will never happen, I'm sure (as I simply don't have the faith in WotC anymore to think otherwise), so instead I'm warning people away from the 'new' Realms. Hopefully this'll make enough of an impact for them... if they can't listen to reason you hit them in their wallet.
I know this may be way off in thinking but what if Corellan was actually taking Eilistraee's place completely. What I mean by that is offering redemption to the other drow that were still tainted by Lolth? Maybe he considers it a reclamation of his people you know like welcoming home wayward children. What do you guys think.
I personally find Corellon Larethian an utterly boring, generic elf deity. He's pretty much an elf pretty boy with absolutely nothing unique about him. Well, except his children, but those are both dead now it seems (something for which he seemed to care quite little, making me despise him even more).
Eilistraee was a deity own to the drow, putting her in a unique position in regards to the struggle over the faith of the drow. Corellon has for more going on and his attention will always be divided between the drow and the other elf subraces.
Oh course there is some hope that Eilistraee still manages to exist somehow has a whatever for Corellon, taking his responsibility for the drow on her or such. But there was no reason to go through all this stupidity to get there, I'm sure she'd happily joined her father's side again without having to 'die' first or whatever.
In short, no, I won't support Corellon taking over either.
That said, I find that I dislike the "reordering" of deities and the ham-handed transformation of the Realms for 4E -so- much that there's no way that I'm going to buy the 4E Realms. I can play happily in my own version of the Realms that never suffered the stupidity of the Time of Troubles, or these ridiculous Warcraft imports. It's also very likely that Ascendancy of the Last is the very -last- book from WotC that I will buy. I'm just -that- disinterested and disgusted with what they've done. Good job, designers! You've lost a customer for 4E, and for your novels.
Pretty much the same for me. Though I'm doing more than just leaving as a customer, I'm actively warning people away as well.
Because you simply don't do something like this to long-time and generally dedicated fans.
Love -x-x-x-
Shir'le
... a few lines in Dragon 176, who were mostly C&P'ed into DD. Indeed!
-Yeah, not much...
Oh, I realize that. But I wasn't taking anything away from anyone by asking my deity to remain.
-The designers have stated that the large number of deities in the setting somehow 'confuses' and 'turns away' potential fans who might like the setting otherwise.
There's a difference between number of IC worshipers and number of OOC fans.
Heck, there's only one Drizzt, but he has an incredibly large following (which personally I really don't get, but there you have it).
-Like I said, a small niche in a small niche community to begin with.
And as I said before, maybe I'm wrong. But it definitely feels to me like WotC are gravely underestimating the number of fans the deity has. In my view they had it right when they put her in the FRCS's main list of deities (together with Lolth and before any and all elven deities, including Corellon Larethian).
-Including both Lolth and Eilistraee in the "Faerûnian Deities" section was an error, as neither are in the "Faerûnian Pantheon". Lolth is part of the Anti-Seldarine, and Eilistraee is a part of the Anti-Seldarine and the Seldarine.
Did Eilistraee not die because she created something greater than an avatar? I understood that she created something more akin to a Time of Troubles incarnation.
Also since Corellon took Eilistraee's place on the sava board does that not mean he continues the game as set on the first book of the trilogy? Which means whoever wins the game claims all the souls on the board (dark elves and drow included)? It would seem like a wise and heroic move for Eilistraee to sacrifice herself so as to trick Lolth to enter such a game with Corellon, who is probably more powerful both in person and in following than Lolth is.
-The designers have stated that the large number of deities in the setting somehow 'confuses' and 'turns away' potential fans who might like the setting otherwise.
You wonder what those designers will do if people happen by and claim to be confused by the 20odd dozen PrC, 100odd dozen feats and 1000odd dozen new spells that came into being post the publishing of the Core Rule books? People were probably utterly unfazed by those, yet couldn't get their heads around a few pages of non-rule stuff.
But rest assured, 4E will provide tons more of that, plus ability trees galore and all ...
Also since Corellon took Eilistraee's place on the sava board does that not mean he continues the game as set on the first book of the trilogy?
Don't ... as in DO NOT ... make such idea public! Someone might read it and take it up!
You wonder what those designers will do if people happen by and claim to be confused by the 20odd dozen PrC, 100odd dozen feats and 1000odd dozen new spells that came into being post the publishing of the Core Rule books? People were probably utterly unfazed by those, yet couldn't get their heads around a few pages of non-rule stuff.
But rest assured, 4E will provide tons more of that, plus ability trees galore and all ...
-Don't forget, Zanan, there's also tens of thousands of years of HISTORY. We should probably eliminate all of that, as not to confuse people.
Vhaeraun was my favorite of the drow deities. I really liked Eilistraee too. Those two gods and their relationship to Lloth made the FR drow really exciting for me, and it was a corner of the FR setting I absolutely charished. The last 120 pages of the Ascendacy book felt like I was watching a trainwreck I knew was going to happen. I really like Smeldman's style when writing about drow, but reading the book felt like she was checking off a laundry list of things the designers at WoTC set up for her, and she just tried to soften the blows for us as much as possible.
But that's it for me. The ending of this book is the straw that has broken the camel's back. WotC has ruined way too much of the FR setting for me in preparation for 4e, and everything post spell-plague. Pretty much everything I like about FR is now gone, or horribly taken a turn for the worst IMO. And it's not that I'm afraid of change. I was happy when the elves reclaimed Myth Drannor, even though it meant that I had to scrap my plans for a Myth Drannor campaign I had invested alot of time, money, and research into creating (timeline issues mostly). I may buy some of the already released FR novels (as there are plenty I haven't read), but the future of this setting as I know it is dead to me. I am even reluctant to buying the old novels, because I don't want to give WoTC any more of my hard earned money. I want to them to suffer where it hurts most for ruining the best setting ever in RPG history. The way they have butchered the FR setting is unforgivable to me. The FR setting has died to me, and for all I care now, WoTC can die with it.
YOU WoTC!!!!!The only good part about the entire book was how it ended, ended. With CL stepping in. I think I'll enjoy those books alot more than this past LP series. To me it just seemed like the godfather part III. Taking an exclenet, and until then well thought of and admired cast (The Drow) and sulling them with a bad script (The forced 4e change). With the elves actually stepping up though it could get very interesting.
Vhaeraun was my favorite of the drow deities. I really liked Eilistraee too. Those two gods and their relationship to Lloth made the FR drow really exciting for me, and it was a corner of the FR setting I absolutely charished. The last 120 pages of the Ascendacy book felt like I was watching a trainwreck I knew was going to happen. I really like Smeldman's style when writing about drow, but reading the book felt like she was checking off a laundry list of things the designers at WoTC set up for her, and she just tried to soften the blows for us as much as possible.
>snip< I am even reluctant to buying the old novels, because I don't want to give WoTC any more of my hard earned money. >snip<
I will admit Vhaeraun has a smidge more style than Mask does--merging the two would've been a tad better. I still don't mind the 'Masked Lady' bit but I could see where Vhaeraun survives as a vestige and...or?...
Here's a thought, though. Why not just make it where Vhaeraun feints an attack on Eilistraee, only to help her, knowing that he isn't powerful enough to defeat Lolth? And in the process prepares an attack upon Mask which results him becoming merged with him instead? Eilistraee gets something from Vhaeraun and Vhaeraun subsumes Mask's role (or is absorbed into him). The fallout would be different but it could be worth exploring.
Interesting point about LS, softening the blow. I think the first book done by LS for the Sembia series also had a bit of a letdown as far as wrapping up the end went. In this case though there wasn't much room or ableness allowed to soften the end results of the WotC directives, which made the trilogy a less-than-enjoyable experience. Good writing but shoehorning towards the end kinda does that.
As for old novels, go buy them used. I can think of a few online places where they can be bought for less than half, if even that.
Actually, what it means is that Wizards is confused, therefore, since we can't POSSIBLY be smarter than them according to their designers, we have to suffer because of lower IQs on the design team.
-Eh, there's no reason to attack them personally. Just their decisions. That's fair game.
On a sidenote ... is it just me or is the "FR board" pretty active of late? As in: the reduction a la "e pluribus unum" should be reconsidered.
-Haven't you been paying attention to the *IMPORTANT FUTURE BOARDS INFORMATION FYI* thread?
-Uncle Ben is still dead.
But Bucky is not
-Haven't you been paying attention to the *IMPORTANT FUTURE BOARDS INFORMATION FYI* thread?
Not of late. But I assume you have been quite active on "our" behalf ;)
But Bucky is not
-Very true.
Not of late. But I assume you have been quite active on "our" behalf ;)
-I live to serve.
-Though, with you, maybe I shouldn't say that, being Drow and all...
I think we've established by now that the 4E FR are pretty much to be ignored.
Well, that's for each person to decide, but the comment you responded to was just me stating a 4E fact (not just 4E Realms, but 4E in general)--the drow are still in the Underdark, as per the MM.
It's generally my personal policy as well... people can do/enjoy whatever they want as long as they don't hurt others in the process.
Problem is, that in this they are hurting others (namely me for example). It feels like they're supporting the Spanish Inquisition... need to get rid of all good drow who aren't Drizzt clones.
You mean WotC is hurting people, not the people who enjoy the new changes?
I would hope at this point that they admit that they're making a big mistake and simply say that everything from Lolth's Silence onwards (though I kinda like the fact that the Demonweb Pits are a realm on their own) is being ignored and no longer considered canon.
Will never happen, I'm sure (as I simply don't have the faith in WotC anymore to think otherwise), so instead I'm warning people away from the 'new' Realms. Hopefully this'll make enough of an impact for them... if they can't listen to reason you hit them in their wallet.
I agree with you that it is unlikely that we will see WotC publicly renounce everything they did with the drow race over the past few years. Only rarely do they ever claim to have made mistakes, and that usually only happens many years after said mistakes.
I was happy when the elves reclaimed Myth Drannor, even though it meant that I had to scrap my plans for a Myth Drannor campaign I had invested alot of time, money, and research into creating (timeline issues mostly).
You absolutely did not have to do that.
You mean WotC is hurting people, not the people who enjoy the new changes?
-Yeah. Bruce Cordell beat me up yesterday...
-Yeah. Bruce Cordell beat me up yesterday...
I thought for sure you could have taken him
What type of tentacle rod?
-This is Bruce Cordell we're talking about here. A Greater Tentacle Rod, obviously. ;)
-This is Bruce Cordell we're talking about here. A Greater Tentacle Rod, obviously. ;)
I'd always prefer a master tentacle rod. :evillaugh
*gasp* A ninja pirate devotee of Ghaunadaur! *looks for some beer and salt*
-Good idea. Salt to melt him, since salt melts slugs and oozes and such, and a beer to enjoy afterwards. Brilliant!
Talk about mental torture. :D
-Back to discussion about the book/series...
But Bucky is not
Don't get me starting on him......
-Well, anyway...
-Back to discussion about the book/series...
.....I have nothing:P
Oh please the novels as literature goes were just sad. Wizards need to realize that the trilogy concept has been worked harder than a slave in ancient egypt. It is a simplistic model that in the hands of most writers simply trivialises the plot. A few maybe can handle it but not many. I have a shelf of FR novels with characters that are a challenge to even remember. They throw up some lore at us like a bone so we can forgive the botched job and try to make their characters exotic so they will register in our radars. It simply is not good literature. My standards will only drop this low, and some writers I will just avoid like the plague from now on.
That's why I don't read FR novels for any literary elements, only the plot. Which is also why most FR novels only take a few hours for me to finish.
And I get why Wizard should not care as long as we are buying. But shouldn't the writers take a bit more pride on their work? The character concepts in most of these books are in essence decent; they at least have potential. Can they at least try to exploit it instead of just trying to hit their deadlines . . .
Hell, most of the time I don't even buy the books, I just sit in the store and read em':D
Well, that's the thing. These authors actually have deadlines and such. That makes all the difference in the quality of work. Its like comparing home-made with mass produced.;)
Oh please the novels as literature goes were just sad. Wizards need to realize that the trilogy concept has been worked harder than a slave in ancient egypt. It is a simplistic model that in the hands of most writers simply trivialises the plot. A few maybe can handle it but not many. I have a shelf of FR novels with characters that are a challenge to even remember. They throw up some lore at us like a bone so we can forgive the botched job and try to make their characters exotic so they will register in our radars. It simply is not good literature. My standards will only drop this low, and some writers I will just avoid like the plague from now on.
Most novels from the WotC books department are pulp. They're short, with fairly strict deadlines, and mostly (particularly with series like the Lady Penitent) the authors don't entirely have creative control of the plot (there are exceptions, though). The authors do the best job they can with the limitations they must accept on their work.
You're not going to find fine literature in a Realms novel... I have no idea why anyone would want to (I generally find fine literature boring - my English Lit class in High School saw to that).
Heya,
Most novels from the WotC books department are pulp. They're short, with fairly strict deadlines, and mostly (particularly with series like the Lady Penitent) the authors don't entirely have creative control of the plot (there are exceptions, though). The authors do the best job they can with the limitations they must accept on their work.
You're not going to find fine literature in a Realms novel... I have no idea why anyone would want to (I generally find fine literature boring - my English Lit class in High School saw to that).
Well, "Of Mice and Men" was ok.
Just look at FR novels as a third person narration of somebody's D&D campaign except with better english and more detail.
Just look at FR novels as a third person narration of somebody's D&D campaign except with better english and more detail.
-That's exactly what Forgotten Realms novels are: an "in-depth", up-close view of what the Forgotten Realms are like, in real time. At least, that's how I see it, anyway.
Heya,
Most novels from the WotC books department are pulp. They're short, with fairly strict deadlines, and mostly (particularly with series like the Lady Penitent) the authors don't entirely have creative control of the plot (there are exceptions, though). The authors do the best job they can with the limitations they must accept on their work.
You're not going to find fine literature in a Realms novel... I have no idea why anyone would want to (I generally find fine literature boring - my English Lit class in High School saw to that).
You obviously never read any Thomas Hardy book
But seriously, I agree. The FR books are there for debate over the metaphors and the inner meanings. They are there for you to have a fun read
You obviously never read any Thomas Hardy book
But seriously, I agree. The FR books are not there for debate over the metaphors and the inner meanings. They are there for you to have a fun read
;)
;)
oops
You obviously never read any Thomas Hardy book
Tess of the d'Urbervilles was one of the books we studied.
Heya,
Tess of the d'Urbervilles was one of the books we studied.
oh. you no likey?
oh. you no likey?
Too angst ridden really, too much tragedy. I hated it.
Overall, I think the poster that mentioned the degree of creative control allowed hit on an important point. The less freedom the author is given, the more difficult their task becomes. While I haven't drawn up any listings, the FR novels that I have found the most enjoyable tend to be those that are relatively free of imposed constraints (or so it seems to me while writing this).
It makes me wonder if the Eberron novels' concept of not being canon isn't a better way to go, in the end. Perhaps this isn't possible with 'novels of record' that are meant to chronicle specific events, and that is understandable. However, to take the Baldur's Gate novelizations as an example, I would have much preferred that the events from those games be left generic in canon references, and the novels left to exist as "this is one way it could have happened." It doesn't mean that I can't alter the events and history for my own games, but it doesn't make the task any easier on me.
Personally, if a novel must be part of a canon storyline, I would prefer storyline follow novel, rather than novel follow storyline. The end result just flows better, generally, from what I've seen.
Novels of this sort should be compared, relatively, within the genre, rather than against more exacting standards. This isn't to say they can't be well written (or that non-genre/non-"pulp" novels are simply by definition any better), but rather that we should not judge too harshly on those terms. What I tend to look for is internal consistency, believable characters and plots, and the general sense of whether I found myself caught up in the tale. In short, whether or not I enjoyed the book is the ultimate factor.
That is basically what I was saying.
I.e.: Read Realms novels for what they are, don't expect to get something they're not and then complain.Overall, I think the poster that mentioned the degree of creative control allowed hit on an important point. The less freedom the author is given, the more difficult their task becomes. While I haven't drawn up any listings, the FR novels that I have found the most enjoyable tend to be those that are relatively free of imposed constraints (or so it seems to me while writing this).
It is hard to know which novels are freer of constraint... It's pretty much a given that nearly all authors writing FR novels are not completely free to do as they wish... Even Ed Greenwood bemoans the fact that he can't write as freely (or as voluminously) as he would like.
It makes me wonder if the Eberron novels' concept of not being canon isn't a better way to go, in the end. Perhaps this isn't possible with 'novels of record' that are meant to chronicle specific events, and that is understandable. However, to take the Baldur's Gate novelizations as an example, I would have much preferred that the events from those games be left generic in canon references, and the novels left to exist as "this is one way it could have happened." It doesn't mean that I can't alter the events and history for my own games, but it doesn't make the task any easier on me.
*shudders* I hated those novels with a passion. About the only thing I found interesting was lesbian!Imoen... and she suffered a common fate for characters of non-straight sexualities (ie: she died horribly).
Baldur's Gate should have been level un-novelized. *nods emphatically*
Personally, if a novel must be part of a canon storyline, I would prefer storyline follow novel, rather than novel follow storyline. The end result just flows better, generally, from what I've seen.
100% agreement from me.
What irks me about LP (again) is that many a powerful NPC is slain by an upstart (that ninja assassin lass). Guldor, a wizard 19, relatively easily dispatched, and if the "Black Widow" Zauviir was Laele Zauviir as listed in DdUGttUD, she was a 17th level priestess too. These are people that hardly get killed by some "ninja people" just so. Of course, T'lar might be a 19th level character too, but how likely is that?
I cannot agree on that. Truth be told, if for a moment we ignore statistics and just take into account relative power, an assassin that has surprise and a reasonable arsenal of magic items to help him overpowers certain defenses can kill higher level characters without much fuss.
You're right. But even the individual skills and abilities of the character or their overall level of power isn't always a consideration. The rule of thumb about who wins in a fight in a novel is, generally, the person the author wants to win, will win... Even if that victory is unrealistic....
Like Cyric somehow getting into Dweomerheart without Mystra knowing and stabbing her in the back...
I think you get the picture.
(Yes, I'm still bitter.)
(Yes, I'm still triumphant. For Shar!)
I cannot agree on that. Truth be told, if for a moment we ignore statistics and just take into account relative power, an assassin that has surprise and a reasonable arsenal of magic items to help him overpowers certain defenses can kill higher level characters without much fuss.
*Stabs one of the seemingly more prominent Demonlords of Error and flicks the gore of his blade*
Agreed. A well placed attack at a vital organ is all it takes. Thats why I like melee combat descriptions fastpaced.
I cannot agree on that. Truth be told, if for a moment we ignore statistics and just take into account relative power, an assassin that has surprise and a reasonable arsenal of magic items to help him overpowers certain defenses can kill higher level characters without much fuss.
That would be true, if it had been an average wizard of that level. Drow wizards and priestesses, in their home chamber at that, are a different matter. They are usually paranoia personified and we know e.g. of far lower level priestesses having invisible guardian demons et al hanging about and all. At these levels and in this society, a sneak thief needs to be of extraordinary skill to accomplish what she did. Then there are contingency spells and whatnot.
Then again, as has been said, if the author wants a character in the dead book, it matters not what level or power they have.
It is hard to know which novels are freer of constraint... It's pretty much a given that nearly all authors writing FR novels are not completely free to do as they wish... Even Ed Greenwood bemoans the fact that he can't write as freely (or as voluminously) as he would like.
I doubt that any of the novels are purely free of editorial control - and really, what novels aren't, save perhaps for those authors who are so famous and popular they can pretty much set the terms for their own work - Stephen King, for instance. Even then, that isn't dealing with a shared setting where there needs to be an amount of consistency maintained.
Still, some novels do seem to be freer of constraints than others (which may simply be my imagination). I tend to think that novels set in out of the way spots, which don't involve major NPCs, are more likely to be given much more leeway in terms of creative control. To use Lisa Smedman's novels an example, the House of Serpents trilogy felt (to me) as if it likely had less overt constraints than the Lady Penitent did. It is, ultimately, a matter of degrees though.
*shudders* I hated those novels with a passion. About the only thing I found interesting was lesbian!Imoen... and she suffered a common fate for characters of non-straight sexualities (ie: she died horribly).
Baldur's Gate should have been level un-novelized. *nods emphatically*
Novelizations of a computer game or module tend to be (in my view) a rung below standard FR/genre novels, if only because they're already tied to a framework of a larger story that needs to be shoehorned into the length alloted for a novel. In the case of Baldur's Gate, you're also stuck with some very vivid personalities that are already well-etched into the minds of the fans. This doesn't mean I don't think it could have been done infinitely better (there's a reason why I chose that as an example :P ), but I do have some sympathy. I approach this sub-genre in the sense of "I know how my story/stories went, but how could it have gone for others?" It's therefore a disappointment to me when I get told that mine is invalid... especially when the replacement is something I'm not as happy with.
To use Imoen as an example, she was one of the pivotal characters in the series, and it's hard for me to imagine the story progressing far without her. Personally, I do find the notion of her as a lesbian intriguing, since I don't recall any hints of that in the game itself. If nothing else, it resolves the question of why she never became involved romantically with a male protagonist prior to the Star Wars-esque revelation of 'she's your sister' (since female main characters couldn't get involved with anyone other than that one guy, without using a custom-made mod). I find it greatly disappointing to see an interesting character (even without that aspect) tossed aside... but then, I agree that it does seem typical.
How about returning to the topic at hand and stop discussing novels in general or their quality and relevance?
-Good idea!
What irks me about LP (again) is that many a powerful NPC is slain by an upstart (that ninja assassin lass). Guldor, a wizard 19, relatively easily dispatched, and if the "Black Widow" Zauviir was Laele Zauviir as listed in DdUGttUD, she was a 17th level priestess too. These are people that hardly get killed by some "ninja people" just so. Of course, T'lar might be a 19th level character too, but how likely is that?
-Agreed. I brought that up in my initial list. A powerful Wizard, in his own domicile, and not a single ward to prevent intruders/assassins (and, in a Drow city, you'd think this would be present), nor a single contingency to protect against simple steel.
I'm only going to say one thing, It's my most profund wish that WotC goes bankrupt and stops corrupting the RPG industry.
I don't know how Ed can stand all this. They are his characters, part of his life. If mere readers can't stand this I can't believe he does. He should be publicly denouncing WotC for destroying the realms and everything he spent decades creating.
I agree with you on this 100% Alediarn.....killing off Eilistrae was one of the worst moves in D&D history. I think that Lisa Smedman is a good authour, but that wa definatley her lowest moment.
Also, turning the drow into dark elves???? What kind of nonsense is that?? the drow were what got me into the Forgotten Realms, and now due to this, and the Spell Plague (Yet another foolish move by WotC), I am sorely tempted to give up Forgotten Realms
Finally, you dont end the final book of a series like that......ok Corellon takes up his daughter's spot in the Sava game.....now what??? does he even know how to play?? I guess that Lisa Smedman intended to have the game interrupted from the Spell Plague, but that is wrong... I demand to learn what happens!!!!
Also, turning the drow into dark elves???? What kind of nonsense is that?? the drow were what got me into the Forgotten Realms, and now due to this, and the Spell Plague (Yet another foolish move by WotC), I am sorely tempted to give up Forgotten Realms
-The Drow were Dark Elves before they were transformed into Drow. Now, despite glaring continuity problems that make all of this technically impossible, they are Dark Elves again. Some of them, anyway.
With Shar enshrouding Cyric with veils upon veils of magic (not to take into account that he has Illusion on his own portfolio). Still I cannot disagree that this kind of bad writing is unfortunately prevalent in FR novels. Part of the reason why I love Paul S.Kemp's work is that he gives his villains some respect.
I could go into a long list of reasons why the whole plot wouldn't work, but I think it might take me all day... Primarily my reasoning goes along the lines of, a deity is at their most powerful in their own domain - Mystra should be exceedingly powerful on Dweomerheart, and any other deity trying to influence the situation from outside of (or attempting to be undetected while getting into) Dweomerheart would be a a distinct disadvantage.
(Yes, I'm still triumphant. For Shar!)
You do realize it was a Pyrrhic victory for Shar, don't you?I doubt that any of the novels are purely free of editorial control - and really, what novels aren't, save perhaps for those authors who are so famous and popular they can pretty much set the terms for their own work - Stephen King, for instance. Even then, that isn't dealing with a shared setting where there needs to be an amount of consistency maintained.
Yes, but unless there's a very good reason why, editors of normal non-shared world novels don't normally dictate major plot points.
Still, some novels do seem to be freer of constraints than others (which may simply be my imagination). I tend to think that novels set in out of the way spots, which don't involve major NPCs, are more likely to be given much more leeway in terms of creative control. To use Lisa Smedman's novels an example, the House of Serpents trilogy felt (to me) as if it likely had less overt constraints than the Lady Penitent did. It is, ultimately, a matter of degrees though.
Right. It's clear that WotC had an agenda with the LP series... So Lisa Smedman had to make sure she hit all the points. It was such a terrible thing to have been asked to do. I don't blame her at all, blame for the death of Eilistraee sits firmly on the developers for 4th Edition Forgotten Realms.
Novelizations of a computer game or module tend to be (in my view) a rung below standard FR/genre novels, if only because they're already tied to a framework of a larger story that needs to be shoehorned into the length alloted for a novel. In the case of Baldur's Gate, you're also stuck with some very vivid personalities that are already well-etched into the minds of the fans. This doesn't mean I don't think it could have been done infinitely better (there's a reason why I chose that as an example :P ), but I do have some sympathy. I approach this sub-genre in the sense of "I know how my story/stories went, but how could it have gone for others?" It's therefore a disappointment to me when I get told that mine is invalid... especially when the replacement is something I'm not as happy with.
I've been posting on and reading Bioware's Mass Effect forums lately, and the topic of novelization came up (I was talking about the likelihood that the canon Lt Cmdr Sheperd would be John Sheperd if they ever made a novel). The general consensus seemed to be that they weren't going to make a novelization of the game because that would be like invalidating the choices of anyone who played the game through differently (which also means it's likely that there will be no canon Sheperd), and would put off people in the primary audience for such a novel.
I think making novelizations of computer role playing games is a bad idea because of that very idea.
To use Imoen as an example, she was one of the pivotal characters in the series, and it's hard for me to imagine the story progressing far without her. Personally, I do find the notion of her as a lesbian intriguing, since I don't recall any hints of that in the game itself. If nothing else, it resolves the question of why she never became involved romantically with a male protagonist prior to the Star Wars-esque revelation of 'she's your sister' (since female main characters couldn't get involved with anyone other than that one guy, without using a custom-made mod). I find it greatly disappointing to see an interesting character (even without that aspect) tossed aside... but then, I agree that it does seem typical.
I know of at least one very good Mod that allows s of either sex to romance Imoen. The argument made in that mod is that while Imoen and the protagonist were both children of Bhaal - being the children of the same deity (who can do or be anything - for instance some other bhaalspawn include a chinchilla and a dragon) is a little bit different to being the children of the same mortal. Given that Imoen and have different mothers, it could be argued that there's no real incest involved. But I digress...
When I played through BG2 (un-modded), I got some vibes from Imoen that she was, at the very least, bisexual... Whether this was really in the game, or it was my wishful thinking, it's hard to say, especially considering (I believe) that Imoen was actually originally going to be written out of the game entirely, and therefore her part in the game is not as fully fleshed out as some of the other NPCs (like Jaheria, for example).
I've been posting on and reading Bioware's Mass Effect forums lately, and the topic of novelization came up (I was talking about the likelihood that the canon Lt Cmdr Sheperd would be John Sheperd if they ever made a novel). The general consensus seemed to be that they weren't going to make a novelization of the game because that would be like invalidating the choices of anyone who played the game through differently (which also means it's likely that there will be no canon Sheperd), and would put off people in the primary audience for such a novel.
).
Hey, is that game any good? Because I was gonna get it and ended up getting GTA4 instead.
When I played through BG2 (un-modded), I got some vibes from Imoen that she was, at the very least, bisexual... Whether this was really in the game, or it was my wishful thinking, it's hard to say, especially considering (I believe) that Imoen was actually originally going to be written out of the game entirely, and therefore her part in the game is not as fully fleshed out as some of the other NPCs (like Jaheria, for example).
My opinion about Imoen is that she could have been anything--lesbian, straight, bisexual. The game really gives no hard evidence either way, so it's up to the player to decide for herself.
My opinion about Imoen is that she could have been anything--lesbian, straight, bisexual. The game really gives no hard evidence either way, so it's up to the player to decide for herself.
Still a romance with the player character is suggestive. Imoen clearly cares for the PC. That could credibly evolve into romance.
Still a romance with the player character is suggestive. Imoen clearly cares for the PC. That could credibly evolve into romance.
The player character can be of either gender. Also, it's possible to have close non-sexual relationships with people. Imoen and the PC did grow up together, and I got the impression that their bond (if they have one--I'm not going to assume all PCs dearly loved Imoen) was more familial than romantic.
The player character can be of either gender.
yeah baby!!!!
Also, it's possible to have close non-sexual relationships with people.
not when they are the opposite sex, at least accoridng to Billy Crystal in When Harry Met Sally
Also romantic relationships can be non-sexual.
I'd say there is a massive pile of evidence to the contrary in America anymore. This wasn't always the case. Tragically, couples that wait for marriage for sexual encounters are the exception rather than the rule in society anymore.
Also romantic relationships can be non-sexual.
Platonic relationships are so 19th century
I've known for instance great historic romantic relationships between women and gay men that were never sexual.
You my friend, have very deviant tastes.;)
-Baldur's Gate discussion is fine, but no need to discuss one's "deviant" sexual fetishes. ;) :P
Anyway, how many of you kept hating Cavatina in the third book?
How on earth is mention of non-sexual romance deviant and fetishistic?
-Hey, buddy. It's cool, it's cool. I'm not judging anybody. :P
:D
Anyway, how many of you kept hating Cavatina in the third book?
-In the third one? Not so much, really. In the second one, a whole lot.
How on earth is mention of non-sexual romance deviant and fetishistic?
Anyway, how many of you kept hating Cavatina in the third book?
Well, personally I find the concept of gay men in any kind of relationship repulsive so...
Cavatina was an ok character. She had some complex feelings and I liked how she was always caught between a sense of rightgeous rage, a feeling of moral inferiority, and a demonic urge stemming from her Ilythiri bloodline.
Halisstra however, was just hell...
Corellon prepared his church to descent into the Underdark to save any dark elves and this was all part of the plan. The question is whose plan, but considering that the word comes from a solar of Corellon you may well construe it was his plan.
I think we may have to challenge though on whether Corellon was not on the plan or not. Felarathael says: "All part of the plan. There is no further need for Eilistraee. The willing were saved, the unwilling cast down. It is time for the dark elves to return to Arvandor." Plus: "Even now, the mortals who serve our master are braving the Underdark, to guide their dark elf brethren back into the light."
Corellon prepared his church to descent into the Underdark to save any dark elves and this was all part of the plan. The question is whose plan, but considering that the word comes from a solar of Corellon you may well construe it was his plan.
Sure I agree with all that, but Eilistraee was most likely a willing participant in that experiment.
I think we may have to challenge though on whether Corellon was not on the plan or not. Felarathael says: "All part of the plan. There is no further need for Eilistraee. The willing were saved, the unwilling cast down. It is time for the dark elves to return to Arvandor." Plus: "Even now, the mortals who serve our master are braving the Underdark, to guide their dark elf brethren back into the light."
Corellon prepared his church to descent into the Underdark to save any dark elves and this was all part of the plan. The question is whose plan, but considering that the word comes from a solar of Corellon you may well construe it was his plan.
-I'd discount anything said or mentioned in the entire series, as I've referenced numerous times, due to continuity errors. Drow, for instance, were never barred from Arvandor. As I mentioned a few pages back, Eilistraee's Divine Realm is in Arvandor, and Corellon Larethian has Drow worshippers. So...
-I'd discount anything said or mentioned in the entire series, as I've referenced numerous times, due to continuity errors. Drow, for instance, were never barred from Arvandor. As I mentioned a few pages back, Eilistraee's Divine Realm is in Arvandor, and Corellon Larethian has Drow worshippers. So...
Well, this means all drow that have risen, not just Eilistraee's worshippers.
Well, this means all drow that have risen, not just Eilistraee's worshippers.
-"Risen", in what way? As I mentioned in that other thread, the soul of an individual goes to their patron/patroness, regardless of the "status" of their soul.
-"Risen", in what way? As I mentioned in that other thread, the soul of an individual goes to their patron/patroness, regardless of the "status" of their soul.
At first I thought it was just all of Eilistraee's normal worshippers and all drow who are of Miyeritari descent.
At first I thought it was just all of Eilistraee's normal worshippers and all drow who are of Miyeritari descent.
-Right, these are the ones who are "now" allowed into Arvandor (although, their souls have always been going there). Not all of those of Miyeritari blood have a home in Arvandor, however. As I said, the soul goes to the patron/patroness of the worshiper. The Lady Penitent, for example, was of Miyeritari descent. Would she be welcome in Arvandor? Certainly not. She was a Lolthite, and as such, her soul would go to Lolth. Her mother, who was a typical Lolthite Matron mother? Again, of the same linage. Her soul is resting in the Demonweb Pits.
-Right, these are the ones who are "now" allowed into Arvandor (although, their souls have always been going there). Not all of those of Miyeritari blood have a home in Arvandor, however. As I said, the soul goes to the patron/patroness of the worshiper. The Lady Penitent, for example, was of Miyeritari descent. Would she be welcome in Arvandor? Certainly not. She was a Lolthite, and as such, her soul would go to Lolth. Her mother, who was a typical Lolthite Matron mother? Again, of the same linage. Her soul is resting in the Demonweb Pits.
Yeah, I guess it just means that all of Eilistraee's former worshippers now get space in Corellon's grounds and that all Miyeritari get a better chance at redemption now that they are out of Lolth's jurisdiction.
-I'd discount anything said or mentioned in the entire series, as I've referenced numerous times, due to continuity errors. Drow, for instance, were never barred from Arvandor. As I mentioned a few pages back, Eilistraee's Divine Realm is in Arvandor, and Corellon Larethian has Drow worshippers. So...
Well one could argue that such restriction did exist but it was simply never clearly stated. I do have the feeling that I read somewhere that non-elves are not welcome on Arvandor, with the few there being special cases. I'll have to dig and find it.
Yeah, I guess it just means that all of Eilistraee's former worshippers now get space in Corellon's grounds...
-Yes, that would be a good possibility, being as that if Eilistraee is indeed dead, her Divine Realms will have collapsed, both in Arvandor, and in the Demonweb Pits.
...and that all Miyeritari get a better chance at redemption now that they are out of Lolth's jurisdiction.
-Well, they aren't. As I said, those who are of Miyeritari linage, who worship Lolth, or any other deity, "belong" to that deity.
Well one could argue that such restriction did exist but it was simply never clearly stated. I do have the feeling that I read somewhere that non-elves are not welcome on Arvandor, with the few there being special cases. I'll have to dig and find it.
-Again, Eilistraee's Divine Realm was in Arvandor, meaning that the souls of her Drow worshipers arrived there, meaning Drow were "allowed" into Arvandor. And, again, Corellon Larethian himself has a small percentage of Drow Elf worshipers. His Divine Realm is in Arvandor, and such, the spirits of his Dark Elf worshipers travel to Arvandor upon death.
Well, this means all drow that have risen, not just Eilistraee's worshippers.
Nope. Eilistraee didn't "save" all drow, and probably not even most drow. This is regarded by the spirit elf at the end of the book (the spirit from Corellon) as a "necessary sacrifice".
Well Felarathael is written well to the lore, in being cold and dispassionate. I still think that the necessary sacrifice is a temporary sacrifice in the greater game.
Then it's not really a sacrifice.
Well Felarathael was responding to Lashrael when he talked about that sacrifice, and I think what Lashrael says should be taken with a grain of salt considering he is the drama queen servant of a fey god.
-It was nice to see Lashrael and Felarathael, I thought.
Well Felarathael was responding to Lashrael when he talked about that sacrifice, and I think what Lashrael says should be taken with a grain of salt considering he is the drama queen servant of a fey god.
Yeah, I wasn't really sure, divine servants or not, we were meant to take everything the pair said as 100% true, if not factually than at least spirit. Corellon sitting at the board seems to indicate he still has an interest in battling Lolth and reclaiming his drow children. Less a "necessary sacrifice" than a regrettable, and perhaps in divine terms temporary, tactical move. Eilisteraee did the best should could with the hand (or sava board) she was given; I doubt she'd shrug her shoulders and say, "Eh, I saved some of them. The rest can go screw themselves." No, she saved those she could and then transferred her mission, to redeem ALL drow, to her father.
I didn't know, BTW, that Felarathael and Lashrael were actual established characters in lore. Where do they appear?
-I'd discount anything said or mentioned in the entire series, as I've referenced numerous times, due to continuity errors. Drow, for instance, were never barred from Arvandor. As I mentioned a few pages back, Eilistraee's Divine Realm is in Arvandor, and Corellon Larethian has Drow worshippers. So...
Make those "drow" remark a "dark elf" remark and all is fine. Only the cosmology retconning in the PGtF and the transfer of Eilistraee's realm from Ysgard back to Arvandor, a place she actually vacated when she left the Seldarine alongside mother and brother, makes your argument a good one.
I for one do believe that Corellon had dark elven worshippers, but only pre-Descent. DD intimates that he does have "dark elven" priests, but the book gives no specific dates here.
In any case, LP III gives us new lore as well (you love when novels are considered canon, do you?), e.g. drow CAN actually enter Silverymoon (which Q'arlynd does when meeting Flinderspelt), the Ilythiiri were in dire need of Wendonai's and thus Lolth's help at the time or facing "extinction", hence Geirildin's pact with the balor etc.pp..
I actually like the portrayal of the Eilistraeens, Cavatina and Leliana, their more chaotic neutral than anything character play. The LP was just plain mental, her idea of being a demigoddess and the priestesses slavering about her too though. It recreated the Greyhawkian image of Lolth more than anything, something the FR do not deserve.
More once I finished the book.
The clergy of Corellon includes gold elves (33%), moon
elves (30%), wild elves (15%), sea elves (10%), half-elves of
various ancestries (12%) and even a handful of dark elves.
Not a big percentage but the term 'includes' is present tense so he had a few, not many, before the LP hubbub came about. Just as many of the other Seldarine (Erevan, Hanali, etc.) did.
Eilistraean and Seldarine drow otherwise would leave realmspace's domains and travel to Ysgard to stay in the ancestral domains of Araushnee Nedivilar, which was tended to by Eilistraee. Vhearunites would go to Carceri. This setup might best be maintained even though the great tree cosmology makes this a slight pain. (perhaps all such drow petetioners ended up on the Gates of the Moon, where Eilistraee often resided)
That might prove difficult in his afterlife.
thereby making it an even more interesting choice for a PC
But I would advize not to spend any time within reach of followers of Lolth or Shevarash. A cleric of Corellon in Menzoberanzan cant practise his faith openly. A fellow partymember of mine played a sunelf of Correllon and he had to hide his holysymbol and temper the whole time we where inside the place.
Most interesting would be how he took up the faith of the Fey Father. Ex-Eilistraeans might start a new underground church in name of her father and must have reached him through clandestine ways. Perhaps the drow got approuched by Correllon as Eilistraee did and reached him through dreamvisions.
Safe to say the anti lolth movement in drow society is going to be still holding on through secrecy and education if Correllon wants to win the game he started.
In my campaign I'm ignoring all drow lore starting from Lolths silence anyway, but I am starting to like the new more direct path drow get offered by this deal Correllon now has arranged.
I didn't know, BTW, that Felarathael and Lashrael were actual established characters in lore. Where do they appear?
-Demihuman Deities, and, of course, Elves of Faerûn.
Make those "drow" remark a "dark elf" remark and all is fine. Only the cosmology retconning in the PGtF and the transfer of Eilistraee's realm from Ysgard back to Arvandor, a place she actually vacated when she left the Seldarine alongside mother and brother, makes your argument a good one.
-All that be as it may, that's how things are now.
I for one do believe that Corellon had dark elven worshippers, but only pre-Descent. DD intimates that he does have "dark elven" priests, but the book gives no specific dates here.
-No, it doesn't That wouldn't, of course, bar Drow from worshiping Corellon Larethian. Personally speaking, I feel it makes sense for those Drow who refuse Lolth. Who better to worship than the father of Elves, who "created" you in the first place?
drow CAN actually enter Silverymoon (which Q'arlynd does when meeting Flinderspelt)...
-Heh, that part didn't even dawn on me until you just mentioned it.
the Ilythiiri were in dire need of Wendonai's and thus Lolth's help at the time or facing "extinction", hence Geirildin's pact with the balor etc.pp..
-That little detail, I liked. There isn't very much on the ancient Elven empires of day's past in such "personable" terms.
That might prove difficult in his afterlife. As we pointed out drow ARE likely to have no permission to enter Arvandor (you found that referance Nymrohd?), only dark elves can enter.
-Again, Drow have, and have always been able to enter into Arvandor. Until now, Drow has been synonymous with Dark Elf.
That might prove difficult in his afterlife. As we pointed out drow ARE likely to have no permission to enter Arvandor (you found that referance Nymrohd?), only dark elves can enter. Perhaps souls of most Miyeritar drow (those with Seldarine and non-Lolthite patrons) can renounce or shed their drow bloodline because of Eilistraee's sacrifice and finally enter their patron domains, breaching its protections against drow.
Eilistraean and Seldarine drow otherwise would leave realmspace's domains and travel to Ysgard to stay in the ancestral domains of Araushnee Nedivilar, which was tended to by Eilistraee. Vhearunites would go to Carceri. This setup might best be maintained even though the great tree cosmology makes this a slight pain. (perhaps all such drow petetioners ended up on the Gates of the Moon, where Eilistraee often resided)
If you are talking to me, that's not going to happen. 4th edition and all this nonsense has no place at my table. WotC timeline dies at 1374 DR for me, and all their silly retcons of how the universe work aren't either pressent at my table. For example I use the Great Wheel as the unifying cosmology, with the divine realms of the FR gods directly linked in a shape like the Great Tree (provides the easy path to the other planes, from where any Realms being can planewalk.
That campaign is going to start near Myth Drannor (for reasons of my campaign) in an timeline where Lolth is destroyed and the drow will have to adapt to the new world. An Eilistraeean church is going to be present near the city of Song, because one of the members of our current party (who are going to be shaping a part of that future) is a drow priestess of eilistraee (in a party where 5 of the characters are elves who know about the followers of the Dark Maiden). That drow cleric of Corellon will be from that comunity and is going to act as the liason between the eilistraeans and the rest of the seldarine churches in the city.
To which I have a couple ideas. Some lolthites will quickly change patron (Kiaransalee is going to rise, since it's the only evil female god in the drow pantheon that would be left), others will keep to Lolth's faith (for those who are crazy enough), other will find different ways of keeping power (learn arcane magic, turn to gods outside the drow pantheon, etc) to maintain the status quo, which is going to be a mostly futile attempt.
Selvetarm, without Lolth's influence could be either reedemed (a possible option happening during the campaign) or become the drow equivalent to Shevarash.
Many drow, especially those who are mostly neutral and not powerful (on any way) will choose to go to the surface, and depending on which drow faith of the surface they meet first (Vhaeraun or Eilistraee) is how they are going to act from that point (change of faith it's going to happen too, since many will find their choice to be wrong).
The campaign will begin one year after Lolth's removal of Realmspace (not truly destroyed, since I use the notion of multy-spheric gods from Planescape) in a small "town" that was raised near Myth Drannor by my current campaign's druid to be "close to nature", near a tunnel to the underdark (not known by the druid founder) when a wave of drow refugees appear on it, lucky for both sides the town is near the main eilistraean temple of the region, which the next night is going to be attacked by a group of Vhaeraunites, hoping to get converts to them and taking prisoners. After that, the story turns to be an investigation of what is happening to the drow.
How many faithless drow still live within their emaculate underdark cities and how did you're characters tell them the "good news"?
-I'm sure they would have shot said individuals with plenty of crossbow bolts.
-I'm sure they would have shot said individuals with plenty of crossbow bolts.
Lovely poison-tipped crossbow bolts... :D
Lovely poison-tipped crossbow bolts... :D
-That goes without saying.
-That goes without saying.
Oh, heh... I know. I was just relishing the thought. :D
As for Selvetarm, it can also be both, go Shevarash at the begining, and become redeemed once Eilistraee can get her followers to that matter. It's going to get bloody, but without Lolth to stop her, and with the Sledarine's help it could be possible.
-I'm sure they would have shot said individuals with plenty of crossbow bolts.
If Corellon's people are going down in the holes in order to try to save a few I wish them well because he doesn't exactly have the best shtick. His reps can play on being a god of elven magic and opposing Lolth to win a few rebellious ones but still it isn't as effective (IMO) without an Eilistraee to coax them out...She was one of their own, after all. And her people could creep out of the woodwork to offer a hand to one who isn't used to such things.
*shakes head at the LP debacle*
Oh WotC, how lame thou art.
Removal of that demon he slayed and murged with could turn Selvatarm back to the seldarine aswell.
-Selvetarm was never part of the Seldarine, to begin with. That said, there is a thread around about purging the evil from Zanassu from Selvatarm, and getting him back to being neutral.
Kiriansalee would relish the chance of taking over all those worshippers.
-As per the second novel in the series, Kiaransalee doesn't have much of a say in the affairs of the Drow in Realmspace, anymore. Well, at least on Abeir-Toril, anyway.
Saddest fact is all those dark elves lose their darkvision in the middle of the underdark . . .
-Not necessarily. We don't know if Dark Elves had Darkvision to begin with. Probably not. Low Light vision, sure.
Plus dark elves will be eladrin.
-Selvetarm was never part of the Seldarine, to begin with. That said, there is a thread around about purging the evil from Zanassu from Selvatarm, and getting him back to being neutral.
The Seldarine are one big happy family (untill the Anti Seldarine was formed). Selvatarm being the son of Vhearun and the Yuir Totem Zandilar makes him part of the Seldarine bloodline.
-As per the second novel in the series, Kiaransalee doesn't have much of a say in the affairs of the Drow in Realmspace, anymore. Well, at least on Abeir-Toril, anyway
Yeah I was reasoning whithin the campaign of Alediran.
A Kiriansalee dominated drow community trying to shape a place on the surface is an interesting campaign arc.
The Seldarine are one big happy family (untill the Anti Seldarine was formed). Selvatarm being the son of Vhearun and the Yuir Totem Zandilar makes him part of the Seldarine bloodline.
-Selvetarm was "born" after Lolth and Vhaeraun were banished from the Seldarine. He was never affiliated with the Seldarine.
A kiaransaleen drow community is even more murderous and chaotic than a lolthite one.
But at least death is not that final :P
But at least death is not that final :P
-Selvetarm was "born" after Lolth and Vhaeraun were banished from the Seldarine. He was never affiliated with the Seldarine.
Aye, but he wasn't afiliated to anyone for a couple of centuries, and even favored Eilistraee over his own father. I am just saying he has an ancestral link to Correllon and co and the Seldarine might want a new ally and a god of kicking ass on a battlefield.
Aye, but he wasn't afiliated to anyone for a couple of centuries, and even favored Eilistraee over his own father. I am just saying he has an ancestral link to Correllon and co and the Seldarine might want a new ally and a god of kicking ass on a battlefield.
-All of that is true, but that doesn't make him a member of the Seldarine, before he absorbed the essence of Zanassu. In fact, his "story" necessitates not being part of the Seldarine, as he, in my eyes, needs to very much be a somewhat confused loner type, for the rest of what happens to him to come into fruition.
He must have been very very stupid to take advice from Lolth, loner type or not.
-Given how he acts post-absorbing Zanassu, I don't think he was ever that smart.
-Note, though, that he fought and absorbed Zanassu, on advice from Lolth, to impress Eilistraee. I can attest to the fact that men do things they might not normally don't, to impress women.
Oh certainly. But taking advice from your murderous grandmother is never smart.
-Don't know if he even knew she was his grandmother, or that she was murderous. How does that saying go? "The Devil always speaks in veiled tones", or something like that.
-See Elves of Faerûn for more information.
(-I think you might have meant Sharess, though.)
-All that said, I do not believe that she does. Remember she was raped, and it was through this **** that Selvatarm was "conceived". Many women who conceive children via **** are reminded of the incident by the children that are formed from this union. This is among many of the reasons why, in the case that a child is conceived like this, many women opt for abortions, rather than give birth to their child.
-Shar and Zandilar are two different entities. Zandilar merged with the Mulhorandi deity Bast, not Shar.
-See Elves of Faerûn for more information.
(-I think you might have meant Sharess, though.)
-All that said, I do not believe that she does. Remember she was raped, and it was through this **** that Selvatarm was "conceived". Many women who conceive children via **** are reminded of the incident by the children that are formed from this union. This is among many of the reasons why, in the case that a child is conceived like this, many women opt for abortions, rather than give birth to their child.
I meant Sharess, of course. And I'm sure she has no desire to revisit her ****, but, still, she DID have the child, and now he's dead. That should be worth a moment or two of wistful contemplation between orgies. But it's really neither here nor there, and I doubt it'll ever be brought up in-game.
I meant Sharess, of course. And I'm sure she has no desire to revisit her ****, but, still, she DID have the child, and now he's dead. That should be worth a moment or two of wistful contemplation between orgies. But it's really neither here nor there, and I doubt it'll ever be brought up in-game.
-Like I said, I'm no expert in the field, but such children bring up pretty extreme emotions. **** is probably the worst crime, barring murder, than there is.
-But, yes, I agree that it'll probably never be brought up.
-All that be as it may, that's how things are now.
It just shows how little effort was put into rearranging the cosmology. Or shall we say what kind of negligence was shown when doing this. There are surely hundreds of people out there who have a deep respect and knowledge about the FR, people who would easily have checked and double-checked a new all-round sourcebook for free. Many of the current discrepancies, especially those we debate here right now, could have been avoided.
-No, it doesn't That wouldn't, of course, bar Drow from worshiping Corellon Larethian. Personally speaking, I feel it makes sense for those Drow who refuse Lolth. Who better to worship than the father of Elves, who "created" you in the first place?
Do keep in mind that after the Descent (the time the "drow" were created), the mythology of the race shifted and was kept up for 12 millenia. Hardly any living drow these days will acknowledge Corellon as the "father" or "creator", and I would assume 4E will strengthen that line of thought amongst the "drow".
As for Zandilar and Vhaeraun ... there is no word of him raping her, so we should refrain from starting rumours who will over time grow arms and legs.
Was she raped? I think seducing Vhaerun was her own intent and she just got a bit deeper than she expected. Maybe she forgot the safety word . . .
As for Zandilar and Vhaeraun ... there is no word of him raping her, so we should refrain from starting rumours who will over time grow arms and legs.
-The text says that she attempted to seduce Vhaeraun when he betrayed her, captured and imprisoned her, and attempted to subsume her. He failed, and shortly after, Selvatarm was spawned. Sounds like "divine ****" to me. It's not that hard to put two and two together, especially in an era when TSR went out of it's way to sugarcoat things.
It just shows how little effort was put into rearranging the cosmology. Or shall we say what kind of negligence was shown when doing this. There are surely hundreds of people out there who have a deep respect and knowledge about the FR, people who would easily have checked and double-checked a new all-round sourcebook for free. Many of the current discrepancies, especially those we debate here right now, could have been avoided.
-Again, be that as it may...
Do keep in mind that after the Descent (the time the "drow" were created), the mythology of the race shifted and was kept up for 12 millenia. Hardly any living drow these days will acknowledge Corellon as the "father" or "creator", and I would assume 4E will strengthen that line of thought amongst the "drow".
-Again, which doesn't exclude his current Drow following. Also, keep in mind, all of the other write-ups for other deities in Demihuman Deities, Faiths & Avatars and Powers & Pantheons have their current followings. Thus, Corellon Larethian's following is current.
-The text says that she attempted to seduce Vhaeraun when he betrayed her, captured and imprisoned her, and attempted to subsume her. He failed, and shortly after, Selvatarm was spawned. Sounds like "divine ****" to me. It's not that hard to put two and two together, especially in an era when TSR went out of it's way to sugarcoat things.
Dont follow you're logic here. Vhearaun just took advantage of Zandilar's desparate seduction to get some nookie AND betray her later. Much easier to have a willing partner, no?
-Again, which doesn't exclude his current Drow following. Also, keep in mind, all of the other write-ups for other deities in Demihuman Deities, Faiths & Avatars and Powers & Pantheons have their current followings. Thus, Corellon Larethian's following is current
Those (one to five) current drow in his following are likely outcasts from their own society in the first place. And if they aren't allowed to set foot on Evermeet so they are likely lonely travellers of Fearun's forrests. You can count on their fatih in the Feyfather must have come from after they fled the depths of the underdark and learned the new truth. But still I have my doubts they would be allowed to enter Arvandor without somehow circumventing the curse their Feyfather helped establish.
Dont follow you're logic here. Vhearaun just took advantage of Zandilar's desparate seduction to get some nookie AND betray her later. Much easier to have a willing partner, no?
-I don't particularly think so, no. After betraying her, and imprisoning her, he attempted to subsume her. This entails a merging of deities. Take that as some figurative language for a "union".
Those (one to five) current drow in his following are likely outcasts from their own society in the first place.
-Of course. That goes without saying. I don't see how it's necessarily relevant, but...
But still I have my doubts they would be allowed to enter Arvandor without somehow circumventing the curse their Feyfather helped establish.
-Again, what is there to doubt? It's quite clear.
I think these wards are there on Arvandor aswell. Otherwise Eilistraee's sacrifice is in vain and I think Lisa certainly didnt intend that.
To me not so. Elves of Evermeet has several lines which suggest drow are thought to be unable to step on Evermeet whitout circumventing some magic wards somehow. This might not be the truth but the xenophobic masterminds of the sunelves could have easiliy raised such wards anyway.
-Evermeet, correct. They aren't allowed there (although, remember, Drow do live on Evermeet, in secret, and Drow invaded the island during the events of the novel).
I think these wards are there on Arvandor aswell. Otherwise Eilistraee's sacrifice is in vain and I think Lisa certainly didnt intend that.
-Like I said, the entire plotline of the story arc is impossible from the get go. The entire thing is based on continuical impossibilities. Drow cannot cast Elven High Magic, nor is Elven High Magic written on scrolls, so the ritual cast in the first book that set the chain reaction of Eilistraee "killing" Vhaeraun and becoming the Masked Lady is impossible. And, from there...
-Again, both Corellon Larethian and Eilistraee's domains are in Arvandor. That is where their petitioners go upon death. Drow compose the ranks of their petitioners, especially Eilistraee. How much clearer does it need to be?
-Like I said, the entire plotline of the story arc is impossible from the get go. The entire thing is based on continuical impossibilities. Drow cannot cast Elven High Magic, nor is Elven High Magic written on scrolls, so the ritual cast in the first book that set the chain reaction of Eilistraee "killing" Vhaeraun and becoming the Masked Lady is impossible. And, from there...
This isn't entirely true. This takes place in the 3.x era so Epic Spellcasting is possible for anyone that meets the requirements. As such, there are rules for placing such spells on scrolls, tablets, whatever... (although it is prohibitively expensive)
As for drow casting High Magic, well it may be true that drow can't use epic spells in the manner of the Elven High Mages, but it doesn't mean they can't stumble to the secrets on their own or with a little help (via the Epic Spellcasting feat). All this means is that drow are barred from taking the Elven High Mage prestige class.
This isn't entirely true. This takes place in the 3.x era so Epic Spellcasting is possible for anyone that meets the requirements. As such, there are rules for placing such spells on scrolls, tablets, whatever... (although it is prohibitively expensive)
As for drow casting High Magic, well it may be true that drow can't use epic spells in the manner of the Elven High Mages, but it doesn't mean they can't stumble to the secrets on their own or with a little help (via the Epic Spellcasting feat). All this means is that drow are barred from taking the Elven High Mage prestige class.
-Drow cannot use Elven High Magic. The priest in question, who had the scroll in the first place, noted that it contained an Elven High Magic spell. Nor do Elves place their High Magic spells on scrolls. They are stored in Kiira.
I don't agree drow are unable to cast epic magic. I don't see why they can't cast drow high magic resembling elven high magic, aiding one another ala circle magic. The scroll can exist if you make it an epic item...
Aye perhaps Correllon accepts some drow petitioners in his domain. But still I see those areas as parks in his realm where the drow must remain. If they enter his domain proper they will be held back by their curse as they lack the divine spark to overcome the wards set in place to ward banished tanari.
Though I'd agree that there was nothing preventing Drow from using Epic Magic, just spells with the High Magic descriptor... which they could probably duplicate themselves anyway some other way, at least in terms of effect. Now the likelihood of a bunch of drow trusting each other long enough to actually pull off, much less teach said Epic Spell is another matter entirely...
Not referecing the novel but the 2nd edition supplement on Evermeet. But yes there was a drow allowed around 1356 DR. From then on there might have been more allowed as long they would'nt show themselves to the other elves.
-Yes, Drow are allowed on Evermeet in the supplement (Ky-whatever her name is). And, in the novel, Drow invade Evermeet.
I don't agree drow are unable to cast epic magic. I don't see why they can't cast drow high magic resembling elven high magic, aiding one another ala circle magic. The scroll can exist if you make it an epic item...
-I didn't say Drow can't cast Epic Magic. I said they can't cast Elven High Magic. And, numerous times throughout the series, it is claimed that Drow cast Elven High Magic, and not mundane Epic Magic.
Aye perhaps Correllon accepts some drow petitioners in his domain. But still I see those areas as parks in his realm where the drow must remain. If they enter his domain proper they will be held back by their curse as they lack the divine spark to overcome the wards set in place to ward banished tanari.
-Drow aren't Tanar'ri. Furthermore, if Drow are in Corellon Larethian's Divine Realm, then they are in Arvandor. Same thing with Eilistraee.
-I didn't say Drow can't cast Epic Magic. I said they can't cast Elven High Magic. And, numerous times throughout the series, it is claimed that Drow cast Elven High Magic, and not mundane Epic Magic.
True, but not having been exposed to Epic Magic or Elven High Magic, how would a drow distinguish between the two? I think it's perfectly logical for practitioners, inexperienced in such forms of magic, to come to such an erroneous conclusion. Besides, before the Descent dark elves were practitioners of Elven High Magic, I don't believe there was enough of a change to somehow prevent them from taking up the practice once again. The only real stumbling block would be pride. Pride in their own superiority and resentment for being cast down, perhaps?
-Drow aren't Tanar'ri. Furthermore, if Drow are in Corellon Larethian's Divine Realm, then they are in Arvandor. Same thing with Eilistraee.
Well Lisa went with the drow having a significant part of their blood infused with Wendonai's demonic heritage, making them succeptable against certain wards against tanar'ri.
This all is really hairsplitting at this moment though. Continuity wise it isn't possible but story wise it is.
However there is precident of drow using a unique form of higher magic, akin to Elven High Magic. In Sea of Fallen Stars either El or Khelben (i cannot remember) theorize that the underwater drow enclave that exists of the coast of Sembia might be a sign that drow have rediscovered a way to call High Magic.
As for the use of Kiira. I do not know of a source that verifies the use of Ki'ira during the crown wars and before. I always believed that Ki'ira were an invention of later times, most likely among the elves of Uvaeren, who are known to have been most proficient in magic of crystals and always seeking new ways to store lore. I think the idea just became too cool and was retconned later on to earlier elven realms (not the first occurance of such; dualism was originally unique among the northern crown war nations (and not all schools at each nation) only for the green elven realms south of the sea of fallen stars to suddenly all become expert dualists (since that was the basis in the later formation of the dukar orders).
True, but not having been exposed to Epic Magic or Elven High Magic, how would a drow distinguish between the two?
-At the point that they are at the "power level" that allows them to cast Epic Magic, I'd hope (for their own sakes!) they know the differences between Elven High Magic and Epic Magic! ;)
Besides, before the Descent dark elves were practitioners of Elven High Magic, I don't believe there was enough of a change to somehow prevent them from taking up the practice once again. The only real stumbling block would be pride. Pride in their own superiority and resentment for being cast down, perhaps?
-See Nymrohd's answer. This is correct. Drow cannot cast Elven High Magic because the bond between one Drow and another simply is not sufficient.
Well Lisa went with the drow having a significant part of their blood infused with Wendonai's demonic heritage, making them succeptable against certain wards against tanar'ri.
-Don't take this personal, that I am picking apart all of your arguments.
-Over 10,000 years have passed since the descent of the Drow. To begin with, only a small minority of the residents of Ilythiir would have had the Demon-tainted blood of Wendonai within them. This small minority, over the years, would have either bred with other Drow, or not bred, and died off. If they did breed, the demonic bloodline would have been diluted. Now, multiply this by 10,000 years. The "demonic taint" no longer exists, as it has been too diluted. Using this kind of progression, I am related to you, just like I am related to wubby, and Merrik, and Stigger, and Zanan, and Alediran, and Ri, and the Queen of England, and Alex Rodriguez, and so on and so forth. But, the bloodline is so diluted that I'm not really related to these people.
I still think Arvandor doesn't allow fully drow souls. Petetioners to Arvandor willingly change to elven form.
Dont worry I can go on for awhile. Ilythiiri are my favorite subjects.
Aye, but this taint could have been spread over some 8000 years. Untill he lost Lolths favor in -2549 DR he could have renowed his bloodline several times each century amongst the drow nobles.
-How many Half-Demon Drow are there running around, admittedly? Not a lot. There's the Draegloth, but they are sterile. There'd be Half-Drow Half-Fiends (Drow Cambions?), but again, how common do we see them in novels/sourcebooks?
I still think Arvandor doesn't allow fully drow souls. Petetioners to Arvandor willingly change to elven form.
-Among Eilistraee's servitors are Tieflings. Demihuman Deities. Arvador allows Tieflings, but not Drow, who, for better or worse, are Elves? I cannot accept your theory.
Dont worry I can go on for awhile. Ilythiiri are my favorite subjects.
-Likewise, albeit I prefer the proto and prehistory of the empire.
I was the one who thought he had read something about Arvandor not allowing fully drow souls but I was never affirmative. I've been through a huge ammount of lore searching for that reference these past few days (heck I even checked some planescape products) and I have yet to find it.
I'll have to agree with LK that the corrupt blood of Wendonai idea is simply crappy. Truth be told I can hardly see how the Melarns managed to maintain a pure bloodline through the ages.
-Indeed. The Drow of Ilythiir, and the Drow of Miyeritar, as well as any other Dark Elf settlements, all merged into "one" Drow nation, upon the Descent. The likelihood that in 10,000 years, Miyeritari families never crossbred with Ilythiiri families is pushing the bounds on believability.
-This is why I have so many problems with this series. Sure, it's all canon now, but...
I do think there might have been a few pure Miyeritari drow left but not in the underdark. There was a number of very small settlements of Eilistraeean drow on the surface, among which Qilue's mother was found. I always had the feeling those might have survived ever since the crown wars, though I may very well be mistaken. Still it would be a nice idea.
-That would be the now-defunct settlement of Buiyrandyn.
-How many Half-Demon Drow are there running around, admittedly? Not a lot. There's the Draegloth, but they are sterile. There'd be Half-Drow Half-Fiends (Drow Cambions?), but again, how common do we see them in novels/sourcebooks?.
That dreagloths are sterile makes this all odd aswell. But yes, I agree the demonic taint should be diluted to have a drow race. Otherwise they are a cambion race, and I wouldnt go as far as claiming that. But they do have lets say a drow commoner has about up to five percent tanari infused in them. Nobles from 5 percent and up so they get levitation and stronger darkvision.
-Among Eilistraee's servitors are Tieflings. Demihuman Deities. Arvador allows Tieflings, but not Drow, who, for better or worse, are Elves? I cannot accept your theory.
I got it from the PGtF which states Arvandorian petetioners take on the elven form (get the elf traits).
-Likewise, albeit I prefer the proto and prehistory of the empire
The whole demonic fall to the darkside has its original moments of debauchery, but I prefer the ancient times of the Miyeritari and Ilythiiri's majesty on the surface as well. Elves with style they where. Thats why I am exited they are getting a new chance to rebuild this.
That dreagloths are sterile makes this all odd aswell. But yes, I agree the demonic taint should be diluted to have a drow race. Otherwise they are a cambion race, and I wouldnt go as far as claiming that. But they do have lets say a drow commoner has about up to five percent tanari infused in them. Nobles from 5 percent and up so they get levitation and stronger darkvision.
-I'm going to call you for fuzzy numbers with that 5% number, there.
I got it from the PGtF which states Arvandorian petetioners take on the elven form (get the elf traits).
-So, how does this translate to you as Drow are barred from Arvandor? Drow are Elves too.
Thats why I am exited they are getting a new chance to rebuild this.
-We shall see. Remember, according to Drizzt, the Eilistraeeans met some kind of disaster. And, apparently, the Eilistraeeans were the transformed Dark Elves.
I guess we will all just have to agree that the drow arc in 3rd edition was just disappointing
-Indeed, that about says it all.
Well the Ilythiiri always were a bit on the evil side. They worshipped Vhaerun and even Ghanaudar long before the crown wars.
Aye but they were superior! How could they foult themselves for being being better and taking Fearuns lands earlier. The petty Seldarine were holding them back for greater glory! Only through the dark arts one can shape empires worthy of histories mention.
-We shall see. Remember, according to Drizzt, the Eilistraeeans met some kind of disaster. And, apparently, the Eilistraeeans were the transformed Dark Elves.
Here's Drizzt's quote from The Orc King prologue, just fyi -
[INDENT]"(...) I witnessed the hope of the goodly drow, the rise of the followers
of Eilistraee. But where are they now?"
"You speak in ridd-" the elf started, but Drizzt slammed him again.
"Gone!" Drizzt shouted. "Gone, and gone with them the hopes of a tamed
and gentle world. (...)"[/INDENT]
Here's Drizzt's quote from The Orc King prologue, just fyi -
[INDENT]"(...) I witnessed the hope of the goodly drow, the rise of the followers
of Eilistraee. But where are they now?"
"You speak in ridd-" the elf started, but Drizzt slammed him again.
"Gone!" Drizzt shouted. "Gone, and gone with them the hopes of a tamed
and gentle world. (...)"[/INDENT]
-Yup, that's the one.
I really don't think they brought the City of Hope back only to blow it up.
I really don't think they brought the City of Hope back only to blow it up.
-It only mentions the followers of Eilistraee, not the city itself. There's a lot more in the city than simply the followers of Eilistraee.
-I'm going to call you for fuzzy numbers with that 5% number, there.
Fuzzy? Well ok. Forget the numbers and fill in low bloodline taint and high taint.
-So, how does this translate to you as Drow are barred from Arvandor? Drow are Elves too.
The same reason drow are banned from using elven high magic, hearing the bladesong, entering Arvandor or Evermeet. :P
-We shall see. Remember, according to Drizzt, the Eilistraeeans met some kind of disaster. And, apparently, the Eilistraeeans were the transformed Dark Elves.
Oh nose! Wizards wouldn't dare. Would they crush all my hopes beneath their corporate heel? Why Bob. Why?
Fuzzy? Well ok. Forget the numbers and fill in low bloodline taint and high taint.
-Still is fuzzy numbers, any percentage of "taint".
The same reason drow are banned from using elven high magic, hearing the bladesong, entering Arvandor or Evermeet. :P
-We've been through this already: Drow cannot use Elven High Magic because they cannot form the necessary rapport with other Drow, presumably, they cannot hear the Bladesong for the same reason, which is the reason the Ilythiiri turned to "Duskblading", they can enter Evermeet, and they can enter Arvandor.
Oh nose! Wizards wouldn't dare. Would they crush all my hopes beneath their corporate heel? Why Bob. Why?
-They're spying on you, keeping tabs on what you like, and are out to get you.
-The text says that she attempted to seduce Vhaeraun when he betrayed her, captured and imprisoned her, and attempted to subsume her. He failed, and shortly after, Selvatarm was spawned. Sounds like "divine ****" to me. It's not that hard to put two and two together, especially in an era when TSR went out of it's way to sugarcoat things.
Well, a touch of conjecture inculded here, but only the designers can clear that up. And for some reason I think that this question would take No. 7896 on a to-do list.
-Again, which doesn't exclude his current Drow following. Also, keep in mind, all of the other write-ups for other deities in Demihuman Deities, Faiths & Avatars and Powers & Pantheons have their current followings. Thus, Corellon Larethian's following is current.
Most likely those still stuck in the ki'iras and the like. (For the text does speak of "dark elves", not drow. ... yes, yes, back then, there was little chance that any of the designers would know what spectacular ideas would blossom before the advent of 4E ... and hence "dark elves" was indeed referring to "drow". I wonder how many sun elves are worshipping Lolth these days.)
Well, a touch of conjecture inculded here, but only the designers can clear that up. And for some reason I think that this question would take No. 7896 on a to-do list.
-Eric Boyd isn't especially..."quick" on answering questions posed to him, and a lot of the time, the answer is (truthfully) "I don't remember what we meant by XYZ". The Spiderspact Bond, for instance.
I wonder how many sun elves are worshipping Lolth these days.)
-Going by what Demihuman Deities says, um...none. You can add an asterisk to this is you are one of those people who believe that Lolth is masquerading as Moander, and granting the spells of those Elves who venerate the Rotting One.
-We've been through this already: Drow cannot use Elven High Magic because they cannot form the necessary rapport with other Drow, presumably, they cannot hear the Bladesong for the same reason, which is the reason the Ilythiiri turned to "Duskblading", they can enter Evermeet, and they can enter Arvandor.
I disagree that drow CAN"T cast Elven High Magic. The reason you give can be overcome. What you argue is a mental block not a physical block. Mental blocks can be overcome. Especially if certain drow learn to trust certain individuals. I find the idea that they are incapable rather silly. Same goes for the Bladesong. They just have to overcome centuries of mental conditioning is all. I'm not saying it would be a common occurrence, far from it. Just that it IS possible.
Although just to sate my curiosity, where does it specifically spell out the requirements to cast Elven High Magic?
I disagree that drow CAN"T cast Elven High Magic. The reason you give can be overcome. What you argue is a mental block not a physical block. Mental blocks can be overcome. Especially if certain drow learn to trust certain individuals. I find the idea that they are incapable rather silly. Same goes for the Bladesong. They just have to overcome centuries of mental conditioning is all. I'm not saying it would be a common occurrence, far from it. Just that it IS possible.
Well, IIRC, a Elven High Magic spell is cast by a group of Drow during the LP series (the one that wipes the name of Kaiaransalee (or however you spell her name) from the minds of all living/undead beings on Abeir-Toril, which apparently kills her, or at least drives her from Toril). So you're right, it is a restriction that can be overcome.
If I'm presuming the conversation's direction correctly:
But not being able to or being able to use Elven High Magic and Bladesinging doesn't mean anything. Whether or not a Drow gets to Arvandor is solely a function of which deity they worship - if they worship a member of the Seldarine (or Eilistraee if she lives in Arvandor in your campaign), that's where their soul will end up. Novels never seem to get the Faerunian afterlife right for some reason or other.
(If I'm not, ignore me.)
I disagree that drow CAN"T cast Elven High Magic. The reason you give can be overcome. What you argue is a mental block not a physical block. Mental blocks can be overcome. Especially if certain drow learn to trust certain individuals. I find the idea that they are incapable rather silly. Same goes for the Bladesong. They just have to overcome centuries of mental conditioning is all. I'm not saying it would be a common occurrence, far from it. Just that it IS possible.
-Centuries of mental conditioning? Try millenniums of mental conditioning. :P
Although just to sate my curiosity, where does it specifically spell out the requirements to cast Elven High Magic?
-Years of canon, most recently in Races of Faerûn, in which the prerequisites for being an Elven High Mage are spelled out. Drow need not apply.
Well, IIRC, a Elven High Magic spell is cast by a group of Drow during the LP series (the one that wipes the name of Kaiaransalee (or however you spell her name) from the minds of all living/undead beings on Abeir-Toril, which apparently kills her, or at least drives her from Toril). So you're right, it is a restriction that can be overcome.
-Correctamundo, and as I pointed out, this is continuitically (Like my new word? :cool
impossible.I remember asking a game designer online about the bladesinger and, apparently, the FR bladesinger was 'open' to including drow elves. Mind blower indeed. Go figure.
Two, LK is right about the High Mage thing. In order to cast High Magic one had to be a High Mage...then again, novels get fuzzy there. Anyone remember Liriel assisting the Witches of Rashemen in casting their kind of magic? So things which aren't supposed to happen in fact do...in novels.
Just curious, on a post-LP/death of Mystra tangent...anyone consider repositioning some of the pantheons' members? Not as drastic as it's going to be officially, but still...for example, I was thinking that in the post-apocalyptic...er, post-LP world I'd eliminate Solonar and have Eilistraee take his place. I know, sacrilege but...
Another interesting thought. What if Eilistraee temporarily gave up her divinity, allowing it to be maintained tenuously while within Qilue's body prior to Halisstra's treacherous strike? Technically she could have a soul as a mortal, therefore upon being 'slain' her soul instead is held by Corellon. (If Cavatina can make it to Arvandor so can she.) Corellon's twin heralds (or servants, whatever) trumpet that she is dead when in fact she is kept in seclusion until as such her time comes again.
Just throwing this out there for kicks, folks.
So things which aren't supposed to happen in fact do...in novels.
-I am of the opinion that authors should have the "sovereignty" to write how and what they see fit in their own intellectual property, but at the same time, this is someone else's "sandbox" they are playing in, and as such, should follow all rules and regulations posted.
Just curious, on a post-LP/death of Mystra tangent...anyone consider repositioning some of the pantheons' members? Not as drastic as it's going to be officially, but still...for example, I was thinking that in the post-apocalyptic...er, post-LP world I'd eliminate Solonar and have Eilistraee take his place. I know, sacrilege but...
-I never liked Solonar Thelandira much anyway.
As for Solonar, kinda agree there. By replacing him with Eilistraee I'm thinking of expanding her portfolio without stepping too much on Erevan's territory. He's more of a symbol of fey mischievousness, she of fey stealth and shadows...and with Solonar's death there'd be a good reason for her to take up the bow again.
(...) Another interesting thought. What if Eilistraee temporarily gave up her divinity, allowing it to be maintained tenuously while within Qilue's body prior to Halisstra's treacherous strike? Technically she could have a soul as a mortal, therefore upon being 'slain' her soul instead is held by Corellon. (If Cavatina can make it to Arvandor so can she.) Corellon's twin heralds (or servants, whatever) trumpet that she is dead when in fact she is kept in seclusion until as such her time comes again.
I think Eilistraee's soul is inside Corellon's moon-styled necklace that the author takes time for us to notice. Just hypothesizing. ;)
...and with Solonar's death there'd be a good reason for her to take up the bow again.
-If I'm not mistaken, the curse Araushnee/Lolth put on the arrow that she fired that almost killed Corellon Larethian is the reason why she "put down" the bow in favor of the bastard sword/longsword she is more commonly associated with.
-If I'm not mistaken, the curse Araushnee/Lolth put on the arrow that she fired that almost killed Corellon Larethian is the reason why she "put down" the bow in favor of the bastard sword/longsword she is more commonly associated with.
Yep. That's how it went. So if Solonar is slain he can call upon her to take it up without thinking of the past incident. Perhaps a tiny redemption for Eilistraee even though Corellon never held it against her to begin with.
Btw, who in WotC said the dark elves in FR would be treated as eladrin? Ability-score wise it's fitting, nonetheless...
Btw, who in WotC said the dark elves in FR would be treated as eladrin? Ability-score wise it's fitting, nonetheless...
-Don't know. Never heard anyone say this, so...Take it with a grain of salt until someone can provide proof.
Here's Drizzt's quote from The Orc King prologue, just fyi -
[INDENT]"(...) I witnessed the hope of the goodly drow, the rise of the followers
of Eilistraee. But where are they now?"
"You speak in ridd-" the elf started, but Drizzt slammed him again.
"Gone!" Drizzt shouted. "Gone, and gone with them the hopes of a tamed
and gentle world. (...)"[/INDENT]
Looking at this quote now, I actually don't think there's either necessarily a continuity problem with it or a guarantee that Drizzt's statement means something bad happens to the "redeemed" drow in the hundred year gap. Drizzt did see the rise of the "goodly drow"; under Qilue the faith flourished, especially after the merger of Eilisteraee and Vhaerun. The LP series indicates the faith was never stronger or more numerous than at this time period. And we know the new dark elves made for the City of Hope, which we have no indication has opened its doors or made itself known to the general Realms. So what, as far as Drizzt knows, happened? Eilisteraee died (true) and the "goodly drow" disappeared (also true... just not AS true as he thinks it is). To all appearances, Lolth destroyed both the goddess and all her worshippers. The clergy of Corellon who, according to Corellon's servitors, went into the Underdark to retrieve those transformed down there, know, the high clergy of Lolth probably know, people connected to the City of Hope (such as any remaining of the Seven Sisters) know, but none of these people necessarily has any interest or desire in letting it be more widely known. The latter two, in fact, have every reason to NOT want any more people than necessary know, the City of Hope to continue its secrecy and the Lolthite hierarchy to keep Lolth's reputation "pristine." Even the Corellonite clergy might be keeping it a secret, probably under the directions of Corellon himself. They/He may judge the rest of elvenkind unready, yet, to embrace their new (well, old, really) brothers and sisters.
So, to sum up, Drizzt may be telling exactly the truth as he, and most anyone else, knows, but it may not be THE truth.
Two minor bits...
Two, LK is right about the High Mage thing. In order to cast High Magic one had to be a High Mage...then again, novels get fuzzy there. Anyone remember Liriel assisting the Witches of Rashemen in casting their kind of magic? So things which aren't supposed to happen in fact do...in novels.
.
well the rashemi witche's magic is circle magic, something that any gorpuof wizards can do, it was required for laying down mythals too. well imo back in the day....
-Going by what Demihuman Deities says, um...none. You can add an asterisk to this is you are one of those people who believe that Lolth is masquerading as Moander, and granting the spells of those Elves who venerate the Rotting One.
Of course I do. Evermeet goes to tell that Lolth (at a time) was involved in seducing surface elfes directly. Anyway, DD tells us that she grants these spells and that elves are apparently following her as "Moander in disguise", as do half-elves and humans. Of course, there are humans following Lolth too, at least in Bezantur. But that's something you know anyway. ;)
You wonder how "open" Lolth will become in 4E, as she has now entered the Core list of deities in the PHB / DMG and may well be taken up by the average sneak thief as well.
Elven High Magic and Drow ... that question has been answered many a time and with regard to lore, in Cormanthyr. Corellon, as the patron of that kind of magic, will not grant it to the drow and they are, as has been said, lack the unity to perform Elven High Magic rituals. That said, there are possibilities to circumvent the rituals, as has been shown in the Last Mythal series - when someone uses the power of an outsider. Regarding the drow, the LP stuff is based around the use of ancient Miyeritar lorestones and the drow are essentially simply the living vessels for these Miyeritari to perform the casting. (That this is a neat deus-ex-machina device to reduce the number of deities does not matter. It does bother, as new lore was written with every line. ... Storm, it is pretty simple: KI - A - RAN - SA - LEE ;) ).
Cormanthyr also intimated all those years ago that drow were / are able to use equally strong magic, though the book does not specifiy this. 3E gave us Epic Magic and an thus a reasonable answer to that question. Elven High Magic is just one version of Epic Magic and the drow have, as it looks, developed "another" (for game purposes most likely simply the Core version).
So, to sum up, Drizzt may be telling exactly the truth as he, and most anyone else, knows, but it may not be THE truth.
-Sure, we've known this much from the beginning.
You wonder how "open" Lolth will become in 4E, as she has now entered the Core list of deities in the PHB / DMG and may well be taken up by the average sneak thief as well.
-If, supposedly, Corellon Larethian is more "open" to non-Elves, Lolth will probably be more "open" to Non-Drow.
Storm, it is pretty simple: KI - A - RAN - SA - LEE ;) ).
-Who? That name...It's so familiar, but...:P
well the rashemi witche's magic is circle magic, something that any gorpuof wizards can do, it was required for laying down mythals too. well imo back in the day....
Unless you go by the prereqs for the Hathran PrC, which was my point. So what's solid in the game is fluid in the novel.
Yep, she did/does masquerade as Moander but that felt more appropriate for one such as Ghaunadar.
Corellon's problem is that he's still seen (outside of 4e core) as a race god, more or less. But I have no doubt he'd catch his share of appreciative human bards, artisans, and the like. Just have to see how significant that is in the Realms and whether those converts are treated well enough to encourage more non-elves to join in. Since Corellon is an elven god they'd likely naturally see his worship as part of their culture, thus kind of 'belonging' to them. Thus an attitude towards non-elves (half-elves excepted) that they don't understand Corellon the same way that the elves do, etc. etc...not a great sales pitch for inclusion. Then again this is fantasy so anything can happen.
-Who? That name...It's so familiar, but...:P
Now look, that is a really large toad on this rock there in the swamp ... Oh wait! ... It ain't no simple rock! It's a skull or something, a head maybe. If only someone could remove all these slugs and snails ... :evillaugh
I am disgusted by how they have torn apart what has been built for so many years.
Not simply the end Eillistraee, but the tearing down of the promenade, to the up comming end of so many characters and deities.
Ive got 4 words for you
The
Spell
Plauge
Sucks
Now look, that is a really large toad on this rock there in the swamp ... Oh wait! ... It ain't no simple rock! It's a skull or something, a head maybe. If only someone could remove all these slugs and snails ... :evillaugh
-Hohohohoho!
Did anyone notice the HUGE unbalanced powers the slime lord's followers have with the tentacle rods?
Just saying
Lolth will use any number of guises but as soon as she seriously starts recruiting human followers, etc. (as opposed to supporting play-cults that her drow can pull sacrifices and slaves from) then she'll start bumping onto other deitis' toes....likely Shar's.
Yep, she did/does masquerade as Moander but that felt more appropriate for one such as Ghaunadar.
Corellon's problem is that he's still seen (outside of 4e core) as a race god, more or less. But I have no doubt he'd catch his share of appreciative human bards, artisans, and the like. Just have to see how significant that is in the Realms and whether those converts are treated well enough to encourage more non-elves to join in. Since Corellon is an elven god they'd likely naturally see his worship as part of their culture, thus kind of 'belonging' to them. Thus an attitude towards non-elves (half-elves excepted) that they don't understand Corellon the same way that the elves do, etc. etc...not a great sales pitch for inclusion. Then again this is fantasy so anything can happen.
I think the attitude towards Correleon will change within the 100 years. I think many races will have looked to him and his church for magical guidance.
At least I hope so because I think he needs a big "push" in FR and I think it would be cool for many races to worship him. The reasoning is sound enough.
Did anyone notice the HUGE unbalanced powers the slime lord's followers have with the tentacle rods?
Just saying
-Not particularly. What was unbalanced about them? I recall something about paralyzing those they touch, but...
I think the attitude towards Correleon will change within the 100 years. I think many races will have looked to him and his church for magical guidance.
At least I hope so because I think he needs a big "push" in FR and I think it would be cool for many races to worship him. The reasoning is sound enough.
why do you think he needs a "big push"?
:D
And he's not an elf deity anymore. Welcome to 4e. :D
Gold elves don't have good names to begin with... [cough]Crown Wars[cough]... [cough]Killing Storm[cough]... [cough]assassinating Coronals[cough]...
-And, there are races that are any better?
And he's not an elf deity anymore. Welcome to 4e. :D
-Oh yeah.
Not to mention that all the rest of the elven gods will likely be demoted to his exarchs while Lolth stands alone.
-We, for the most part, agree that the hypothesis that most of the Seldarine will have actually be other deities wearing "masks". For example, Silvanus was actually Rallifane Rallathil.
We, for the most part, agree that the hypothesis that most of the Seldarine will have actually be other deities wearing "masks". For example, Silvanus was actually Rallifane Rallathil.
I'm still not going to concede on that one. They just make better sense as exarchs to Corellon.
Every race is better than an elf... Goblins, for example, devastate them in the cute department. They do at least have oozes and slimes beat out by a tiny fraction at least. ;)
-I love oozes and slimes.
-Great way to tie this on topic, as there were plenty of those in Ascendancy of the Last!
And it limited Halaster badly. Or I should say Hilather. His connection to his past was always so underrepresented.
Indeed, undermountain seems like a poor concept. It reminds me of 1E gygaxian dungeons whose main purpose was to kill your party in gruesome and unavoidable ways.
And it limited Halaster badly. Or I should say Hilather. His connection to his past was always so underrepresented.
-Undermountain, as in a "dungeon" lorded over by Halaster, with wards and such to make him near omnipotent while inside, I have no real problem with. Undermountain, with everything else inside, from Skullport, to Drow settlements, that part, I never liked.
And he's not an elf deity anymore. Welcome to 4e. :D
welcome indead, to the part I REFUSE to use.
welcome indead, to the part I REFUSE to use.
Several racial deities have sought to gain human worshippers in FR, sometimes by assuming other guises and other times straightforward. And Corellon is still a patron of the eladrin. 4E deities do not have portfolios though, they are just supremely powerful entities with goals and aspirations. They are not bound to their ideas.
why do you think he needs a "big push"?
He and all the racial gods were 2nd tier gods to me in a way. After reading all those novels on the deities (oi) ya never saw Moradin or Correleon in that god meeting room when they talked about each other. To me that meant the racial gods were not really that important, because only the movers and shakers of god politics were in those "meetings".
Anyway I just would like to see a "push" for Moradin and Correleon in this edition and it looks like I will get it.
-I never liked Solonar Thelandira much anyway.
Just out of curiosity, why not? He's an elf god, so I figured you would like him.;)
1 more thing,...
Did anyone notice the HUGE unbalanced powers the slime lord's followers have with the tentacle rods?
Just saying
Well, have a look into Demihuman Deities ... these things were / are pretty awesome, even the lesser versions. The Magic Item Compendium (and before that Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil) gives a 3E/RE conversion, but that hardly matches what these things were capable of. And one could assume that the high ranking clergy of Ghaunadaur ... down there in Llurth Dreier ... will have had an ample supply of them. Of course, they are and were not specifically linked to the followers of the Ancient One.
That's because those books were written by a bunch of humanocentric, demihuman(!)-hating, Bane-loving, short-eared heathens who wouldn't let the non-human pantheons represent. Bastards... :D
-It's true, it's true...
Just out of curiosity, why not? He's an elf god, so I figured you would like him.;)
-Don't be surprised...There's plenty of canon concerning Elves that I don't like, or outright refuse to accept/endorse. That said, Solonar Thelandira is pretty bland for a deity, that's why. In theory, his portfolios could be given easily to Corellon Larethian, and no one would notice.
-Don't be surprised...There's plenty of canon concerning Elves that I don't like, or outright refuse to accept/endorse. That said, Solonar Thelandira is pretty bland for a deity, that's why. In theory, his portfolios could be given easily to Corellon Larethian, and no one would notice.
True. But back in 2e days when creating a ranger (for example) I'd list both Solonar and Corellon as their patron deities. Of course, one prob was that some of the primary racial 'aspects' were parceled out to lesser deities when it wasn't necessary. Labelas isn't really necessary, for example, so it all depends on how important one is to your world.
Hmm...there's an idea. Have one god as the 'primary' and list the other as a 'patron saint'. So perhaps Solonar becomes Corellon's celestial archer and guardsman. Or something like that. Thus room for both when choosing. *random thought*
As for Corellon being a deity of magic, since the FR designers' idea has been to spread things out and allow for some choice...I'm sure Corellon will become more acceptable to non-elven mages, especially in places like Silverymoon. Also, as I recall from a Richard Baker post, Selune's likely picked up a sizable portion of Mystra's followers after the Spellplague.
Likely deities to turn to regarding spells and magic in FR 4e: Corellon, Cyric, Garl (if he isn't destroyed outright), Selune/Sehahine, Shar.
Question: What about the idea of having Mielikki become a guise for Eilistraee, hmm? Not officially of course, but how does the idea strike y'all?
One more thing: making sun elves the 'good villians' is kind of annoying and overplayed at this point. That needs to be left in the past. In a way the Last Mythal books tried to do just that.
Hmm...there's an idea. Have one god as the 'primary' and list the other as a 'patron saint'. So perhaps Solonar becomes Corellon's celestial archer and guardsman. Or something like that. Thus room for both when choosing. *random thought*
-This is the exact concept of 'Exarchs'.
As for Corellon being a deity of magic, since the FR designers' idea has been to spread things out and allow for some choice...I'm sure Corellon will become more acceptable to non-elven mages, especially in places like Silverymoon. Also, as I recall from a Richard Baker post, Selune's likely picked up a sizable portion of Mystra's followers after the Spellplague.
-Why a N'Tel'Quessir would want to worship Corellon Larethian, is beyond me. But...
One more thing: making sun elves the 'good villians' is kind of annoying and overplayed at this point. That needs to be left in the past. In a way the Last Mythal books tried to do just that.
-There's plenty more 'good' Sun Elves than there are 'bad' Sun Elves.
As for why...well, if one gets past the idea of a race-exclusive deity, if the deity's been around long enough then people should have an idea they're out there. So a few decide it doesn't hurt if they throw some worship in that direction, if something good happens ~poof~ there's some converts. I don't want to remaining racial deities to be completely outsourced but I don't see a major prob with allowing others to come on in. Besides, who knows what's going to happen in the case of Selune/Sehahine? Sehahine's in the 4e core book but RB's talked of Selune in the present tense...so, since both have moon-related portfolios the question is what really happens to Sehahine in the Realms, whether it turns out she's just another 'mask' for Selune, whether they merged, or whether Sehahine's responsibilityies have been changed in order to make her more distinct from Selune.
Yep, and there are more good sun elves than bad but in the novels and elsewhere it seems like the nastier bad apples get plucked from their barrel, which is unfortunate.
Yep. Although 'exarch' rubs me as well as 'unaligned'. :P
-Exarchs...Unaligned...Half of Abeir-Toril has been "blown up" and this bothers you!? :P
-Just kidding, just kidding.
As for why...well, if one gets past the idea of a race-exclusive deity, if the deity's been around long enough then people should have an idea they're out there. So a few decide it doesn't hurt if they throw some worship in that direction, if something good happens ~poof~ there's some converts. I don't want to remaining racial deities to be completely outsourced but I don't see a major prob with allowing others to come on in. Besides, who knows what's going to happen in the case of Selune/Sehahine? Sehahine's in the 4e core book but RB's talked of Selune in the present tense...so, since both have moon-related portfolios the question is what really happens to Sehahine in the Realms, whether it turns out she's just another 'mask' for Selune, whether they merged, or whether Sehahine's responsibilityies have been changed in order to make her more distinct from Selune.
-This is how I see it. Bear with me: I am Jewish by birth. My mother was born Jewish, thus, I am Jewish. I was raised early on in my life with no particular religious upbringing. My mother then remarried a religious zealot, and I was converted to Catholicism. I have since then rejected that religion, as it, like all of Christianity, is grounded on falsehoods and inconsistencies that make it inherently incorrect (for my point of view).
-Anyway, Judaism states that the Jews are the Chosen People of G-d. Those who aren't Jews, no matter how righteous and good and so on, aren't Chosen by G-d as the Jews have been. They can follow all of the same laws, traditions, and so on and so on, but they can never be Jewish, and thus, Chosen by G-d like the Jews have been. These who follow Noah's Laws (B'Nai Noah) are accepted as righteous and what not, but they can never be Jewish.
-All that said, I don't understand why an individual would adhere to a religion that doesn't purposely cater to them/their kind, specifically. That sums up that big blurb above. :P
Yep, and there are more good sun elves than bad but in the novels and elsewhere it seems like the nastier bad apples get plucked from their barrel, which is unfortunate.
-Yeah, so it seems.
-Exarchs...Unaligned...Half of Abeir-Toril has been "blown up" and this bothers you!? :P
-Just kidding, just kidding.
-This is how I see it. Bear with me: I am Jewish by birth. My mother was born Jewish, thus, I am Jewish. I was raised early on in my life with no particular religious upbringing. My mother then remarried a religious zealot, and I was converted to Catholicism. I have since then rejected that religion, as it, like all of Christianity, is grounded on falsehoods and inconsistencies that make it inherently incorrect (for my point of view).
-Anyway, Judaism states that the Jews are the Chosen People of G-d. Those who aren't Jews, no matter how righteous and good and so on, aren't Chosen by G-d as the Jews have been. They can follow all of the same laws, traditions, and so on and so on, but they can never be Jewish, and thus, Chosen by G-d like the Jews have been. These who follow Noah's Laws (B'Nai Noah) are accepted as righteous and what not, but they can never be Jewish.
-All that said, I don't understand why an individual would adhere to a religion that doesn't purposely cater to them/their kind, specifically. That sums up that big blurb above. :P
-Yeah, so it seems.
I can understand the analogy, and I agree with that analogy. We also know that in 4e FR they want to dilute that exclusivity a bit, at least with regard to redundancies. So I don't expect them to toss it all out because certain gods do represent this and that race. But I suspect there will be some opening up.
-Exarchs...Unaligned...Half of Abeir-Toril has been "blown up" and this bothers you!? :P
-Just kidding, just kidding.
-This is how I see it. Bear with me: I am Jewish by birth. My mother was born Jewish, thus, I am Jewish. I was raised early on in my life with no particular religious upbringing. My mother then remarried a religious zealot, and I was converted to Catholicism. I have since then rejected that religion, as it, like all of Christianity, is grounded on falsehoods and inconsistencies that make it inherently incorrect (for my point of view).
-Anyway, Judaism states that the Jews are the Chosen People of G-d. Those who aren't Jews, no matter how righteous and good and so on, aren't Chosen by G-d as the Jews have been. They can follow all of the same laws, traditions, and so on and so on, but they can never be Jewish, and thus, Chosen by G-d like the Jews have been. These who follow Noah's Laws (B'Nai Noah) are accepted as righteous and what not, but they can never be Jewish.
-All that said, I don't understand why an individual would adhere to a religion that doesn't purposely cater to them/their kind, specifically. That sums up that big blurb above. :P
-Yeah, so it seems.
Ya'll just afraid of change....
Ya'll just afraid of change....
-Exactly! When in doubt, claim those who disagree with your positive opinion on the changes are "afraid of change", and there you go! :P
-Don't be surprised...There's plenty of canon concerning Elves that I don't like, or outright refuse to accept/endorse. That said, Solonar Thelandira is pretty bland for a deity, that's why. In theory, his portfolios could be given easily to Corellon Larethian, and no one would notice.
Or Rillifane, maybe? Anyway I get what you're saying, although I've created at least one character who seriously worshipped Solonor.
If you don't mind my asking, what other elven stuff do you dislike?
If you don't mind my asking, what other elven stuff do you dislike?
-Off of the top of my head:
- The retcon transforming the Green Elves into two seperate Elven subraces: Wood/Copper Elves and Wild/Green.
- The retcon transforming Dark Elves into Green/Wild Elves.
- The recent Lady Penitent series transforming certain Drow into Dark Elves, but not all of them.
-That's definitely not it, however.
-Off of the top of my head:
- The retcon transforming the Green Elves into two seperate Elven subraces: Wood/Copper Elves and Wild/Green.
- The retcon transforming Dark Elves into Green/Wild Elves.
- The recent Lady Penitent series transforming certain Drow into Dark Elves, but not all of them.
-That's definitely not it, however.
Color coded elves make everything simpler. ;) Now, all parties need to determine elf goodness or badness will be a Sherman-Williams paint color chart.
Color coded elves make everything simpler. ;) Now, all parties need to determine elf goodness or badness will be a Sherman-Williams paint color chart.
Badness still cannot be determined. You just can make a safer bet that the drow is not good. Recently drow have been more likely to be good than gold elves.
-Off of the top of my head:
- The retcon transforming the Green Elves into two seperate Elven subraces: Wood/Copper Elves and Wild/Green.
- The retcon transforming Dark Elves into Green/Wild Elves.
- The recent Lady Penitent series transforming certain Drow into Dark Elves, but not all of them.
-That's definitely not it, however.
The first one, I don't really mind. The other two, I dislike as much as you do.
Badness still cannot be determined. You just can make a safer bet that the drow is not good. Recently drow have been more likely to be good than gold elves.
Within the setting as a whole, or in novels?
The first one, I don't really mind. The other two, I dislike as much as you do.
-That one probably gets me the most. Maybe not. I don't know.
Color coded elves make everything simpler. ;) Now, all parties need to determine elf goodness or badness will be a Sherman-Williams paint color chart.
This I completely agree with though... would make life much easier and we could just stick a big red marker around gold elves with an advisory to shoot first and let Correllon sort them out... :D
-Off of the top of my head:
- The retcon transforming the Green Elves into two seperate Elven subraces: Wood/Copper Elves and Wild/Green.
- The retcon transforming Dark Elves into Green/Wild Elves.
- The recent Lady Penitent series transforming certain Drow into Dark Elves, but not all of them.
-That's definitely not it, however.
Amusingly, that first one if the change I liked the most with 3e... been using it quite a bit in my campaign. Different strokes and all that...
I agree that the populations of good-aligned drow should never have been so great, but that most players still insisted on being able to play good drow poiting at Drizzt and followers of Eilistraee.
I thought Ed's 20% of the drow to be Eilistraeans be a bit of a high estimate, especially in the areas players are going to meet drow, like the upper underdark of the North.
Just say no to canon!
Sure it does if you accept the idea of elven evolution... :P
-Which! Is! Wrong!
Heh... Drow to me are a perfect example of elven physiology being influenced by their surroundings and a clear case of lesser feylike evolution.
-They don't evolve, either. Their "gifts" were due to the Descent High Magic ritual, or a boon by Lolth. It seems to be more likely the former, as those things are gone in the Dark Elves who have become "unDrowified".
I agree that the populations of good-aligned drow should never have been so great, but that most players still insisted on being able to play good drow poiting at Drizzt and followers of Eilistraee.
I thought Ed's 20% of the drow to be Eilistraeans be a bit of a high estimate, especially in the areas players are going to meet drow, like the upper underdark of the North.
-I agree the numbers seemed a bit inflated. If I recall correctly, though, the number was that 20% of the Drow payed homage to deities other than Lolth. That would make this 20% divided amongst Eilistraee, Ghaunadaur, Kiaransalee, and Vhaeraun, which makes it more "palatable".
I see absolutely no reason why it would be wrong... every reason why it would be correct though. Wood Elves, like them or not, are definitely canon, and definitely evolved as the first truly native subrace, as per Races of Faerun. That's just the way it is, get over it, and take it like the failed pseudo-deity you are. :P ;) :D
-All I hear was, "Blah, blah, blah, Races of Faerûn is wrong, blah, blah, blah."
Truth be told we only have information (and quite limited in most cases) about just a few of the drow cities.
-Once MT gives me the list, Elves of Faerûn will have in it's index every canon Drow settlement on Faerûn.
If you want the list from there and don't have the book just say so btw.
It is an FR supplement yet lists Erehei-Cinlu.
-MT came up with some kind of weird explanation. Something dealing with extraplanar elements, I don't remember.
-That list isn't all-encompassing, I don't believe, in that book. As I said, though, the one in Elves of Faerûn will be, once MT e-mails me the list he has.
I don't know where most of those cities are tbh . . . is there lore on them somewhere?
-Once I get the fabled list, which has notations on the wheres and such, where information can be found, we'll know. A lot of them, though, he's mentioned, are simply mentions, and nothing more.
and what fables that go with it?????
this website anygood??
http://drowcampaign.roleplaynexus.com/underdarkcities.html
what list
and what fables that go with it?????
this website anygood??
http://drowcampaign.roleplaynexus.com/underdarkcities.html
-See the Elves of Faerûn thread.
Drow----changed?
Lolth----Dead/Alive/Changed?
Elistree---Dead?
Drow Pantheon?
Any other stuff that will have impact throughout the Realms are is a clear set-up for 4e?
Thanks!
I don't really have the time/desire to read Lisa Smedman's series---but am very curious about some of the changes I have heard of. Could someone sum them up for me?
Drow----changed?
Lolth----Dead/Alive/Changed?
Elistree---Dead?
Drow Pantheon?
Any other stuff that will have impact throughout the Realms are is a clear set-up for 4e?
Thanks!
Drow - split Drow and Dark Elves
Lolth - alive
Elistree - Dead
Drow Pantheon - Lolth only
your welcome.
Bel
What is the difference between a Dark Elf and a Drow?
Dark Elf=Good, Drow=Evil?
What is the difference between a Dark Elf and a Drow?
Dark Elf=Good, Drow=Evil?
-No.
- Dark Elf: Drow before the curse in -10,000 and the Descent.
- Drow: Dark Elf after the curse in -10,000 and the Descent.
Does that mean there are no Dark Elves alive at current time? If so---why mention it in the book? Feel free to slap me silly if I am being dense.
Does that mean there are no Dark Elves alive at current time? If so---why mention it in the book? Feel free to slap me silly if I am being dense.
-In the climax of the series, some Drow had the curse reversed, and these Drow reverted into being Dark Elves. These individuals were in the minority of the population, however.
The latter would, of course, pose the question, whether there actually can be a an evil "4E dark elf", now that they are "redeemed" ... ach well, better not to shed any life energy on somesuch.
The latter would, of course, pose the question, whether there actually can be a an evil "4E dark elf", now that they are "redeemed" ... ach well, better not to shed any life energy on somesuch.
-Of course there is. Q-whatever his name is, was a Melarn. The curse was revered because of his bloodline. That would mean that any other Melarn would have been transformed as well. The matron mother of House Melarn was certainly quite evil, based on what we know of her. Hallistra would have transformed as well (in theory), and we all know she wasn't too nice.
-Of course there is. Q-whatever his name is, was a Melarn. The curse was revered because of his bloodline. That would mean that any other Melarn would have been transformed as well. The matron mother of House Melarn was certainly quite evil, based on what we know of her. Hallistra would have transformed as well (in theory), and we all know she wasn't too nice.
Also, consitering their history and the bitterness most of them still foster towards surface elves (especially those of Ilythiri stock), I would say many are staying CE. The whole "redemption" idea is just to give Dark Elves a better chance at redemption and the finding of a better life on the surface (and also to break Lolth's hold over them). Its not a Get Out of Jail Free Card to Utopia.
-Of course there is. Q-whatever his name is, was a Melarn. The curse was revered because of his bloodline. That would mean that any other Melarn would have been transformed as well. The matron mother of House Melarn was certainly quite evil, based on what we know of her. Hallistra would have transformed as well (in theory), and we all know she wasn't too nice.
Ha! We do not yet know whether Q'arlynd, he got "weaker" (alignmentwise) throughout the story, is still "evil" any more. My question was, of course, whether the upcoming "dark elves", being purified of the drow's taint are all purified of their former "evil" alignment too and whether that new redemption bit ensured that for the forseeable time (aftereffects, you know), new dark elves cannot become "evil" either. (Unlikely, but not too far from imagination, I'd assume.)
Ha! We do not yet know whether Q'arlynd, he got "weaker" (alignmentwise) throughout the story, is still "evil" any more. My question was, of course, whether the upcoming "dark elves", being purified of the drow's taint are all purified of their former "evil" alignment too and whether that new redemption bit ensured that for the forseeable time (aftereffects, you know), new dark elves cannot become "evil" either. (Unlikely, but not too far from imagination, I'd assume.)
-As we know, their evil alignment stems from their society. It's not some internal taint, as the novel seems to want to pass off- and does so rather weakly. So, as I said, other Drow who transformed because of their bloodline that were quite evil will continue to be quite evil. You can't suddenly erase centuries of behavior.
... You can't suddenly erase centuries of behavior.
Don't you think that this requires a certain amount of common sense? I assume you know whom I'm talking about ...
Don't you think that this requires a certain amount of common sense? I assume you know whom I'm talking about ...
-I'm not following.
Also, consitering their history and the bitterness most of them still foster towards surface elves (especially those of Ilythiri stock), I would say many are staying CE.
-Yes, that's what I said with my response that you quoted. They are evil because of their environment, not their genetics. So, those that learned evil, and only know evil, if transformed suddenly, are going to continue to do evil.
Nothing a hammer can't fix... or explosives. :D
Were you an Combat Engineer? Seriously
No, can't join the military, I have an unfused tail bone... put a serious crimp in my consideration of going into the Navy or Marines when I was younger.
Navy is ok Marines...MEH
Muscle
Absolutely
Required
Intelligence
Not
Esential
:D
Twit, some of the smartest guys I know are Marines. Only reason I'd have gone into the Navy is to play on tin-cans... I like ships though, always have.
I jest. my Sig says Support Our Troops (as in All of us) ;)
Yeah, but you're army, so... ;) :D
Hey!
A Drow of Wendonai is a drow who chose the side of evil while a
Drow of Miyeritar is one who chose the side of good.
-The book emphasizes that it is indeed bloodline that is the "factor".
I think you guys are taking the wrong angle with The Drow of Miyeritar and Wendonai all wrong. Clearly after thousands of years both lines would be to intermingled.
A Drow of Wendonai is a drow who chose the side of evil while a
Drow of Miyeritar is one who chose the side of good.
What if I say I think the whole "bloodline" angle is stupid to begin with?
What if I say I think the whole "bloodline" angle is stupid to begin with?
Of course it's stupid, whoever said racial purest were smart?
Oh, you were talking about the whole Drow-to-Dark Elf thing, not the KKK... Nevermind...
To clear up any misunderstanding of which drow turned into dark elves, turn to page 287 of Ascendancy of the Last. It says " Not all, the ancestors told, Q'arlynd. Only those few without taint. Miyeritari, such as yourselves, AND those who follow the dance. By Eilistraee's grace, they too will have transformed.
So with the bloodline of Miyeritari OR/and those who followed Eilistraee and only those two.
What if I say I think the whole "bloodline" angle is stupid to begin with?
I'd say you were right.
This is one of the DUMBEST things I've seen to date.
A last minute justification character that allowed them to perform this miscarriage of crappiness.
Eilistraee was a VERY popular diety, why get rid of her when she is the very epitome of what Wizards was shooting for?
Ya know, their vision of "Places of darkness surrounding small points of light" for their game universes?
Hello? Eilistraees symbol is a full moon...which is surrounded by night.
Umm...she was the only good drow diety among a group of evil ones? Ya know, point of light...surround...by darkness...
Hello? Symbolism anyone? *taps microphone* Is this thing on?
*sigh* Anyway...
I'm going to begins this by saying that I thought the Lady Penitent series was great, the only thing I didn't like was what dark elves looked like in the end. I hope that if they put Dark elves into the 4E FR's player's handbook, they make them look cool.
To clear up any misunderstanding of which drow turned into dark elves, turn to page 287 of Ascendancy of the Last. It says " Not all, the ancestors told, Q'arlynd. Only those few without taint. Miyeritari, such as yourselves, AND those who follow the dance. By Eilistraee's grace, they too will have transformed.
So with the bloodline of Miyeritari OR/and those who followed Eilistraee and only those two.
Until these players notice that these dark elves are not drow, i.e. Drizzt-kin.
Eilistraee was a VERY popular diety, why get rid of her when she is the very epitome of what Wizards was shooting for?
Eh, I still don't know.
As much as I like Eilistraee, I'm glad that the new Realms got rid of some of the deities. There was just way too many, it was out of control.
I believe the reason that Eilistraee dead is simply that she isn't needed anymore. Seeing that some drow are now dark elves that can go to Arvandor. My reasoning is that Ao let Eilistraee die and Corellon obviously took her place in the end of the book.
As much as I like Eilistraee, I'm glad that the new Realms got rid of some of the deities. There was just way too many, it was out of control.
Heresy!
We lost Shaundakul for crying out loud, and I liked him! You know how fun was is playing a Ranger/Cleric of Shaundakul who's mindset was pretty much "Kewl, I haven't been there; Hells, I haven't even heard of the place. Let me get my pack."
Heresy!
We lost Shaundakul for crying out loud, and I liked him! You know how fun was is playing a Ranger/Cleric of Shaundakul who's mindset was pretty much "Kewl, I haven't been there; Hells, I haven't even heard of the place. Let me get my pack."
-I never understood the "like" that Shaundakul got. I always saw him as fairly boring, myself. I'm not a very "woodsy", "outdoorsman"-type person, and I hardly ever play characters who are like that, so...
Heresy!
We lost Shaundakul for crying out loud, and I liked him! You know how fun was is playing a Ranger/Cleric of Shaundakul who's mindset was pretty much "Kewl, I haven't been there; Hells, I haven't even heard of the place. Let me get my pack."
QFT! The other daay I read about him dogma and holidays and that he ramdomly takes his clerics and send them to places they've never been and I thought that was awesome! that same week we started playing a new campaing satarting at 6 lv and you KNOW I'm aiming for a cleric/wind walker (If i'm mispelling too much sorry I've been in the sun too long today :P )
I believe the reason that Eilistraee dead is simply that she isn't needed anymore. Seeing that some drow are now dark elves that can go to Arvandor.
1) This argument makes no sense, because there are "dark elves" now only because of Eilistraee's sacrifice.
2) Drow could go to Arvandor before, it was just rare.
As much as I like Eilistraee, I'm glad that the new Realms got rid of some of the deities. There was just way too many, it was out of control.
No, I disagree with you. It's certainly not a self-evident fact that there were "too many" deities and "it was out of control" (whatever "it" is?). And even if there were too many deities, I don't see a point in getting rid of a deity who seems to have proven popular, given the amount of novels that have involved her.
-I never understood the "like" that Shaundakul got. I always saw him as fairly boring, myself. I'm not a very "woodsy", "outdoorsman"-type person, and I hardly ever play characters who are like that, so...
I think I liked him because he was an outdoorsman type of deity.
He was the ultimate traveler, and many adventurers wind up being "professional travelers". Also, he was neutral (CN). Hence, I can see his appeal, although I have no idea how popular he was among fans.-I never understood the "like" that Shaundakul got. I always saw him as fairly boring, myself. I'm not a very "woodsy", "outdoorsman"-type person, and I hardly ever play characters who are like that, so...
You never player adventurers then? He's probably the deity one would affiliate with adventurers most, IF one know's of him, that is.
I think I liked him because he was an outdoorsman type of deity.
-I mean, I like nature stuff (You know that!), but I don't like that...'Outdoorsman' mentality, like, you know, always carrying a rope with you, or always having a skinning knife, or things like that.
You never player adventurers then?
-Not adventurers that worship Shaundakul, no.
Anyway I think Shaundakul is like Tyrmora. Adventurers probably offer up a quick prayer to them even if they do not actively worship him.
-I mean, I like nature stuff (You know that!),
I know.
but I don't like that...'Outdoorsman' mentality, like, you know, always carrying a rope with you, or always having a skinning knife, or things like that.
I see.
Heresy!
We lost Shaundakul for crying out loud, and I liked him! You know how fun was is playing a Ranger/Cleric of Shaundakul who's mindset was pretty much "Kewl, I haven't been there; Hells, I haven't even heard of the place. Let me get my pack."
I've had pretty good feelings about Shaundakul ever since I was introduced to him in the Ruins of Myth Drannor boxed set (very nice boxed set, all around. One of my favorites).
1) This argument makes no sense, because there are "dark elves" now only because of Eilistraee's sacrifice.
2) Drow could go to Arvandor before, it was just rare.
No, I disagree with you. It's certainly not a self-evident fact that there were "too many" deities and "it was out of control" (whatever "it" is?). And even if there were too many deities, I don't see a point in getting rid of a deity who seems to have proven popular, given the amount of novels that have involved her.
"It" being 3rd edition Forgotten Realms.
"It" being 3rd edition Forgotten Realms.
I'm pretty sure there was still "alot" of deities in 2nd edition Forgotten Realms too...
As for 3rd edition Forgetton Realms deities, if you like clerics and paladins alot then the 3D deities are great for you. With its roughly 128 different deities, the possibilities are almost endless. If you want to be a cleric and a dominatress, then Loviatar is a good match for you. If you want to play a really friendly halfling and a cleric, then Cyrrollalee is good choice. If you want to play a crazy battle cleric, its kind of a hard choice between Tempus and Garagos, since their kind of similar.
I'm also a big fan of Eberron's deities.
I have the novel not at hand, so I could not reread the pages. I'm thinking about something what is stated there (last pages?), that through Eilistraees sacrifice her followers and the descendants of Miyeritar (wrong spelling?) were redeemed and brought ot of Lolths claws/eight legs. Why through her sacrifice? Wasn't it the high magic ritual of Q which lifted the whole course of the Seldarine and ancient high magis? Why must Eili sacrifice herself, when Q did it without her through the same kind of abrakadabra with which he killed another godess?
As I said, it looks much like what Q'arlynd did was out of self-interest. To rid the drow of the faerzress link which hampered their magics, i.e. divination and teleportation stuff. (BTW, Sshamath was a place with nigh to no faerzress before the little deed by the Kiaransaleens.) Not that it seems to hinder any of the master wizards to teleport here and there without much concern ...
You do wonder too how it was able to undo a ritual cast by high mages galore and in great numbers with a few number of rather low-key spells and a miracle he should - guidance or not - be unable to cast.
The Eilistraee-into-Qilué-taint-banishing thing was ... well, something strange indeed. Not that deities were unable to slip into the Realms by themselves since the Time of Troubles or something, by default. (Then again, Flinder did in the rather good novel Finder's Bane (could well be that this was a pre ToT-novel). It was a last-gasp attempt to save her priestess-piece at the sava table and as chaotic as you would expect from a drow. Obviously, this all was plot driven, as there was a clear outline who shall survive and who shall not.
Other points of note & bother. Cavatina pops into existence at the start of the series, out of nowhere the most powerful Eilistraeen character (Darksong Knight (Ftr) 8 / Cleric 14). No other Darksong Knight makes an appearance whatsoever though, despite the Promenade temple offers portals to all Eilistraeen shrines Faerûn-wide.
Tabula rasa with regards to characters. The whole roster is either slain or turned into brown "dark elves". How would you ever make someone to re-read the trilogy again if everyone knows that all bite the dust - one way or another - in the end? How interesting it would have been to leave a few CN Eilistraeens behind, who simply stay drow. Or some half-drow worshippers who remain what they are. Or to mention what happens to those who are no worshippers of Eilistraee, Miyeritar-descendants, Lolth-worshippers et al? What of them? Loose ends galore ...
Then again, Flinder did in the rather good novel Finder's Bane (could well be that this was a pre ToT-novel)
Finder's Bane takes place in 1368 ;)
As for 3rd edition Forgetton Realms deities, if you like clerics and paladins alot then the 3D deities are great for you. With its roughly 128 different deities, the possibilities are almost endless. If you want to be a cleric and a dominatress, then Loviatar is a good match for you. If you want to play a really friendly halfling and a cleric, then Cyrrollalee is good choice. If you want to play a crazy battle cleric, its kind of a hard choice between Tempus and Garagos, since their kind of similar.
-All of that said, why is that bad? I consider that a good thing. Variety is the spice of life, and all that.
Not that deities were unable to slip into the Realms by themselves since the Time of Troubles or something, by default.
-Some deities don't actually have permanent Divine Realms, and the Material Plane is their home.
-All of that said, why is that bad? I consider that a good thing. Variety is the spice of life, and all that.
They're great for players and I'd normally agree. As a DM and with my group if I add or change anything in a Realms campaign I get rule lawyered to death. God forbid I use a little of my own originality with my group. Heres an example, I desided to put a small demigod with a cult in my Realms campaign. I put a good two weeks into that part on the campaign and when my players found out about the demigod, one of them said," OH nope you can't do that, you can't change the realms, its the Realms, THE FORGOTTEN REALMS and you can't do that". I sat there frozen, like under a time stop spell... I felt my skull open up and my brain run away for me.
So I ended that campaign (thank god I had my DM screen or as I call it the DM Shield) I then went to my study room and came back out with a homemade book. I made everyone make new 4D characters for my campaign world that I'd been working on for a about a year and a half. We've been playing in it for about four months now and its been great.
Maybe everyone hasn't had the luxery of being rule lawyered to death, but I have and I find it easier to DM in my own campaign setting. I still love to play in the Realms though.
I totally argee with having variety, especially with races. I added four 4D races that I made for my game. I have alittle over thirty deities in my game, I think thats good variety.
They're great for players and I'd normally agree. As a DM and with my group if I add or change anything in a Realms campaign I get rule lawyered to death. God forbid I use a little of my own originality with my group. Heres an example, I desided to put a small demigod with a cult in my Realms campaign. I put a good two weeks into that part on the campaign and when my players found out about the demigod, one of them said," OH nope you can't do that, you can't change the realms, its the Realms, THE FORGOTTEN REALMS and you can't do that". I sat there frozen, like under a time stop spell... I felt my skull open up and my brain run away for me.
So I ended that campaign (thank god I had my DM screen or as I call it the DM Shield) I then went to my study room and came back out with a homemade book. I made everyone make new 4D characters for my campaign world that I'd been working on for a about a year and a half. We've been playing in it for about four months now and its been great.
Maybe everyone hasn't had the luxery of being rule lawyered to death, but I have and I find it easier to DM in my own campaign setting. I still love to play in the Realms though.
I totally argee with having variety, especially with races. I added four 4D races that I made for my game. I have alittle over thirty deities in my game, I think thats good variety.
Wow, you mean none of them have heard the rule "The DM's word is LAW"?
Besides, Demigod's pop up all over the place. All it really takes is a God willing, and someone "lucky" enough to be handy.
They're great for players and I'd normally agree. As a DM and with my group if I add or change anything in a Realms campaign I get rule lawyered to death. God forbid I use a little of my own originality with my group. Heres an example, I desided to put a small demigod with a cult in my Realms campaign. I put a good two weeks into that part on the campaign and when my players found out about the demigod, one of them said," OH nope you can't do that, you can't change the realms, its the Realms, THE FORGOTTEN REALMS and you can't do that". I sat there frozen, like under a time stop spell... I felt my skull open up and my brain run away for me.
So I ended that campaign (thank god I had my DM screen or as I call it the DM Shield) I then went to my study room and came back out with a homemade book. I made everyone make new 4D characters for my campaign world that I'd been working on for a about a year and a half. We've been playing in it for about four months now and its been great.
Maybe everyone hasn't had the luxery of being rule lawyered to death, but I have and I find it easier to DM in my own campaign setting. I still love to play in the Realms though.
I totally argee with having variety, especially with races. I added four 4D races that I made for my game. I have alittle over thirty deities in my game, I think thats good variety.
I sorta had that issue once and all i said was "**** you this is MY game, if you don't like it i'm sure i can call one of the guys that has been harrasing me to play and take your place"
not a peep since I've said things to them, D20's hurt and they always hit, its like they cast true strike on them and D4's are the worst thing to sit on :P .
Better D4, then C4...
Better D4, then C4...
It's not the result, it's the way. They treated Elistraee as bad as Mystra on that one.
@Rauric: For me it's one of the settings most important aspects. I don't enjoy reading about something that doesn't moves me at all. It's a failure if a main character dies without moving any feeling (be it joy or hate or sorrow). A story's job is to make people feel something. Otherwise is just a nice mix of words.
How true.
-Some deities don't actually have permanent Divine Realms, and the Material Plane is their home.
Which is interesting, known to me, but irrelevant to the topic. Eilistraee resided in Svartalfheim until she entered Qilué.
Heres an example, I desided to put a small demigod with a cult in my Realms campaign. I put a good two weeks into that part on the campaign and when my players found out about the demigod, one of them said," OH nope you can't do that, you can't change the realms, its the Realms, THE FORGOTTEN REALMS and you can't do that". I sat there frozen, like under a time stop spell... I felt my skull open up and my brain run away for me.
-Well, it turns out that they're wrong, since various cults of various deities and demideities exist all over the place, due to interplanar/intersphere travel and such.
Which is interesting, known to me, but irrelevant to the topic.
-It's a random fact.
-Well, it turns out that they're wrong, since various cults of various deities and demideities exist all over the place, due to interplanar/intersphere travel and such.
-It's a random fact.
I know, but that doesn't change the fact that they won't like it and they'll still give me a hard time.
So what was everyones favorite Ascendancy of the Last character? I love Q'arlynd, he cracked me up. I also have a thing for drow wizards, R.I.P Pharaun Mizzrym. I also grew to like Cavatina and Naxil stole my heart at the end.
There wer a few. Leiliana was IMHO an archetypical Eilistraeen. Out to do her best to save other drow, but in her heart still drow enough as well.
Q'arlynd as a character wasn't bad either, as a dramatic persona way too clever and omnipotent.
Naxil did strike a cord too and he (and Leiliana) would have gone a long way to present the new faith of "The Masked Lady" Eilistraee.
*Pharaun ... sorry, but he was just an annoyance from the start. Of that series, Valas was IMHO the archetypical drow male out for survival and still "cool", while Danifae showed all what you'd expect of a cunning female.
I know, but that doesn't change the fact that they won't like it and they'll still give me a hard time.
-Well, this isn't a place to give DM advice, so...
-Well, this isn't a place to give DM advice, so...
Yeah I know, thats why I changed the subject
.(So what was everyones favorite Ascendancy of the Last character? ^)
There wer a few. Leiliana was IMHO an archetypical Eilistraeen. Out to do her best to save other drow, but in her heart still drow enough as well.
Q'arlynd as a character wasn't bad either, as a dramatic persona way too clever and omnipotent.
Naxil did strike a cord too and he (and Leiliana) would have gone a long way to present the new faith of "The Masked Lady" Eilistraee.
*Pharaun ... sorry, but he was just an annoyance from the start. Of that series, Valas was IMHO the archetypical drow male out for survival and still "cool", while Danifae showed all what you'd expect of a cunning female.
I liked Pharaun in the begin, like when he casted a spell with his toes and when he teased Ryld. He gave much needed humor in a very serious series.
Q'arlynd too, I liked the part when he was in Reverie and thinking about girls. T'lar caught him at an awkward time !
I liked Pharaun in the begin, like when he casted a spell with his toes and when he teased Ryld.
He played footsie with Ryld? Sexy!
I liked Pharaun in the begin, like when he casted a spell with his toes and when he teased Ryld. He gave much needed humor in a very serious series.
Q'arlynd too, I liked the part when he was in Reverie and thinking about girls. T'lar caught him at an awkward time !
T'lar was eventually (and quite strangely (again) ) outfoxed by him in the end. Does someone really expect that the lass who slew an archwizard and a drow matron is utterly flabberghasted and surprised by Q's contingency and the fact that he simply put a dagger into her like she has no AC and all was a bit over the top ... if he'd actually knew where she was at the time of throwing the weapon. (DEM, IMHO and just a way to clear the roster.)
Perhaps, but I for one will not likely continue with FR in any capacity once I finish this book. I will continue to develop FR for my players on my own or with the assistance of a Pre-Plague community that elects to write lore independent of WotC.
Oh seems to be a good plan.
We knew this was going to happen. Drow of the Underdark flat out said that Loth was the only Drow Diety. This is even some what close to what I envisioned happening (I predicted that Eilustree would some how sacrifice herself in such a way as to win the Drow a chance at redemption). Now they have pretty much taken out all that has made the Drow of Faerun distinctive from the core ones. Which is in line with thier theme for 4.0. Uniformity. No flavor or uniqueness. All settings must be equally bland.
Yes "Uniformity" I had the same "substantivated Adjective" :D in mind latelly. However I couldnt think of any other term less in harmony with the word "Fantasy" than this one.
QFT becuase if its worth saying, its worth saying twice.
unnecessary
Even though Im not very into the "quantum field theory" :D I have to sign the argument.
T'lar was eventually (and quite strangely (again) ) outfoxed by him in the end. Does someone really expect that the lass who slew an archwizard and a drow matron is utterly flabberghasted and surprised by Q's contingency and the fact that he simply put a dagger into her like she has no AC and all was a bit over the top ... if he'd actually knew where she was at the time of throwing the weapon. (DEM, IMHO and just a way to clear the roster.)
I agree, I think there should have been a better ending for her. The way she died was cheap, but I'm still glad that Q'arlynd didn't die. If he had I would hate to be a drow wizard, since their so death prone :D .
T'lar was eventually (and quite strangely (again) ) outfoxed by him in the end. Does someone really expect that the lass who slew an archwizard and a drow matron is utterly flabberghasted and surprised by Q's contingency and the fact that he simply put a dagger into her like she has no AC and all was a bit over the top ... if he'd actually knew where she was at the time of throwing the weapon. (DEM, IMHO and just a way to clear the roster.)
-She should have seen it coming. After all, she killed a powerful wizard (What was his? Wiz 20 / Acm 2? I looked his his stats a while ago, at the beginning of this thread) in a very similar, "nonsensical when you think about it" manner. What comes around goes around.
-She should have seen it coming. After all, she killed a powerful wizard (What was his? Wiz 20 / Acm 2? I looked his his stats a while ago, at the beginning of this thread) in a very similar, "nonsensical when you think about it" manner. What comes around goes around.
Obviously both Hoar and Shevarash were not only watching over the whole thing, but were being really "hot and heavy" with Beshaba enough to help ensure that "What goes around, comes around". :P
Eh, I still don't know.
The reason I say she is very popular:
Wizards made it a point to kill Eilistraee because her followers took away the 'specialness' of Drizzt. Riiiight, whatever.
Last I checked he's the only drow character with a continuing book series. Sounds pretty damn special to me, and he had that while Eilistraee was alive.
They made it an absolute point to tease those that liked Eilistraee into believing she might live, then killed her -last- to make a point in a rather (un)dramatic fashion.
The other drow dieties died immediately and without much fanfare.
They did this just to show those that liked Eilistraee that she was gone, and did it last as a punctuation.
The reason I say she is very popular:
Wizards made it a point to kill Eilistraee because her followers took away the 'specialness' of Drizzt. Riiiight, whatever.
Last I checked he's the only drow character with a continuing book series. Sounds pretty damn special to me, and he had that while Eilistraee was alive.
They made it an absolute point to tease those that liked Eilistraee into believing she might live, then killed her -last- to make a point in a rather (un)dramatic fashion.
The other drow dieties died immediately and without much fanfare.
They did this just to show those that liked Eilistraee that she was gone, and did it last as a punctuation.
Not to mention that the whole "anyone who's embraced Eilistraee or turned away from drow culture gets turned into a Dark Elf and is saved, while those who didn't or couldn't yet are doomed to be Lolth's servents forever" thing kind of delivers a slap in the face to the whole "you're a master of your own destiny" concept that made FR special in the first place.
Makes me sad to see all the work that was put into giving the Drow a chance to redeem themselves get destroyed in just 3 novels.
Oh well, I'm just in a really bad mood at the moment considering that my 2 favorite FR deities (Mystra and Eilistraee) happen to be gone forever...
-She should have seen it coming. After all, she killed a powerful wizard (What was his? Wiz 20 / Acm 2? I looked his his stats a while ago, at the beginning of this thread) in a very similar, "nonsensical when you think about it" manner. What comes around goes around.
We don't know about Q'arlynd and T'lar (who I expect to be something like a ninja 10 / bard 7 - going by the stuff she does), but we know about Guldor Zauvirr (Wiz20 / Acm 2) and Laele Zauvirr (Clr 17). She's been oh so cool beforehand and in her dealings with even Halisstra, then she essentially falls to her own dagger? IMHO, plot-driven.
How could anyone want to kill a beautiful drow chick that dances naked with a sword?
More seriously, I believe that somewhere in this thread someone complained about Corellon not showing up until after the death of his(?) beloved daughter. I believe the nature of the duel involving Ao precluded him and most others from joining in. Perhaps this was already answered, this is a big thread.
Does anyone else think Q and Pharaun are a bit similar? :D :D
She's been oh so cool beforehand and in her dealings with even Halisstra, then she essentially falls to her own dagger? IMHO, plot-driven.
I'm so glad that T'lar, at least, wasn't about to survive this... well, farce. She was the second most unappealing character in the series to me, right after foolish Halisstra, about whom the trilogy was about. Hell, why did I even read those books, when I don't like even the main character?
IMHO, plot-driven.
-That explains most of the series. I've said as much in my book review for this book. The entire trilogy is like once plot-force after another, so the author can get from Point A that she was given to Point B in a way that makes some semblance of sense.
I think this about sums it all up.
How could anyone want to kill a beautiful drow chick that dances naked with a sword?
-Me, because she isn't a real thing. She's a drawing, of a fictitious race. ;)
The reason I say she is very popular:
I'm a bit confused--you're responding to my post, but I never said Eilistraee wasn't popular.
I believe quite the opposite, actually.I'm a bit confused--you're responding to my post, but I never said Eilistraee wasn't popular.
Ah ok, My mistake. But my rant still stands
-Heh, yeah, I guess that is what a small following of very devoted fans are.
And I'm just insane. :P
And I'm just insane. :P
-That goes without saying. ;)