Do you feel that there should be some sort of god involving magic or magic-users? Do you feel that Azuth would be a good choice? If not, then who?
some ideas are as follows:
on the astral plane the dead bodies of gods float. some epic magic and presto, resurrected god.
Karsus, 12th level spell make ur self a god.
Each of the above deities would make a good deity to worship as a wizard.
That being said, perhaps you can appeal to your DM in some other way. Maybe you can try and see if instead of resurrecting Azuth and basically re-creating the old hierarchy you try something new. See if Oghma can get the portfolios of magic and spells. He is suitable to fill the role, especially if you want to resurrect Azuth instead of Mystra.
Perhaps your DM would like the idea of there being an evil deity of magic. You could suggest resurrecting Velsharoon, or perhaps establishing something unique with Bane "the Tyrant of Magic." Instead of encouraging individuals to spread magic around (as Mystra did) he'd encourage wizards to hoard their knowledge and power, and to use it to conquer and control individuals and nations.
Or perhaps you could go with something like Sseth, as it looks like Set (the Mulhorandi deity) got rolled into him, and Set was the deity of "evil magic" in Mulhorand. Sseth is a serpent deity, and thus it would be a unique take in a way... I'm sure it could provide some interesting flavor, I'm thinking something along the lines of Stygia from Conan.
Personally, I'd love to play around with Sseth as a potential deity of magic. However, all of this depends on the type of campaign you are playing. If you are going all the way to the Epic Tier, you might work out with your DM to see if it is an alright goal for your PC to attempt to become the new god of magic and spells, effectively retiring him afterward.
I still have no idea how they came up with the latest Mystra incarnation. I mean, couldn't they tell that a morally biased god of magic was a really awful idea?
I like stuff that "breaks the mold".
Evil Death gods: boring for me
Neutral Magic gods: Boring...
of couse that's just me
Magic does just fine without a god and the mystery of Mystra's death is the setting seller. Midnight and the weave plays an important role in the flavour of my 14th century realms campaigns though.
However, I also agree with Ody. If *I* were to re-introduce a deity of magic back into FR then I'd want the deity to be interesting. Although, like I stated in my former post, there are many deities that work great for spellcasters: Oghma, Bane, Selune, Shar and Cyric just to name a few.
I mean, really, if someone is a huge fan of Azuth, there is no reason they should not also be a fan of Oghma as he could easily replace Azuth without much change. I'd even wager that many priests of Azuth likely changed faiths to Oghma... it just "feels" right and is also logically rational.
One of the things that really drove me nuts about Mystra / Midnight was the fact that she was good aligned, and yet was artificially prohibited from acting in accord with her alignment. I loved the Weave, but I think a great disservice was done to the Mystra character as a result of it. The Weave should have been turned into an semi-sentient construct independent of all the deities. Mystra could have been designated as it's guardian, and otherwise been allowed to use her portfolios as she wished (in accordance with her alignment).
Otherwise, there was no real point in elevating Midnight to Mystra's post. They should have just dumped it all on vanilla neutral Azuth's shoulders and been done with it.
LK's statement is pretty much in line with my own thinking.
-On the matter of Mystra, and entities tied to her, we usually are in agreement. :P
One of the things that really drove me nuts about Mystra / Midnight was the fact that she was good aligned, and yet was artificially prohibited from acting in accord with her alignment. I loved the Weave, but I think a great disservice was done to the Mystra character as a result of it. The Weave should have been turned into an semi-sentient construct independent of all the deities. Mystra could have been designated as it's guardian, and otherwise been allowed to use her portfolios as she wished (in accordance with her alignment).
Otherwise, there was no real point in elevating Midnight to Mystra's post. They should have just dumped it all on vanilla neutral Azuth's shoulders and been done with it.
I feel the same way. So, in my own realms, I had Azuth take over Midnight-Mystra's role after Cyric slew her. The Weave was destroyed, but by absorbing Mystra's essence/divine spark, Azuth managed to protect Dweomerheart from total annihilation. In my game, he doesn't have the monopoly on magic that Mystra had with the Weave. He's much the same as he was before, only his ability to revoke magic doesn't exist since there's no Weave. He serves as a champion of responsible spellcasting; he doesn't mind mages vying for greater power, nor is he offended by mages who slay or subjugate potential threats. He just doesn't wish to see the use of magic result in widespread catastrophe; his mentality and personality have become a lot more "shades of gray" since the Spellplague.
If you take a neutral deity, such as Azuth and put him in charge of it then it isn't much of a problem. He's about as exciting or as interesting as a vanilla envelope. He'd have to be placed in an extreme circumstance to actually abuse his power, but otherwise he's going to keep to himself and keep silent.
However, once you try and spice it up with morality, things get difficult. The designers KNEW Mystra / Midnight could not use the Weave for personal gain. Yet, she had moral beliefs... and those beliefs had to be snuffed out in order to ensure equal access to the Weave for all.
I like the idea of a deity of magic who is interesting and defies the mold. The traditional expectation of a D&D God of Magic is Azuth or Oghma. It is fun to turn that on its head. Mystra could have done that but was restrained.
Thus, it only made sense for the Weave to be independent of the gods, unable to be abused by any of them. Give it some moderate self-awareness, the ability to heal and repair itself, as well as a way to deal with threats to its existence and you've pretty much eliminated all the major problems that we faced.
Anyway, just a minor rant. I think the bulk of the people working on FR (both designers and novel writers) dislike many of the things that took place during and immediately after the Time of Troubles. Ao is something else I think there is some regret to adding to the setting.
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Oh, and to add a little known fact... Midnight as a mortal was stated out to be Lawful Neutral. I can only speculate why she had an alignment shift. I suppose the in character justification of it would be based around her experiences during the Time of Troubles and with Cyric. Kelemvor also had an alignment shift (Lawful Good to Lawful Neutral), but he had a story behind his shift.
The OOC justification for Midnight's alignment shift I think lays with the TSR code of ethics. As Ed has said numerous times on Candlekeep, TSR was hammering home hard on the Realms the code of ethics. Evil was not supposed to be shown to -ever- be victorious or appealing. This resulted in two dimensional villains without any real depth, who left folks wondering how they walked out of their front door in the morning without tripping over their own two feet.
Cyric was raised to godhood after the ToT and had become Chaotic Evil. A lot of people who read the novels actually liked Cyric as a mortal, and thought of him as an interesting character. Yet, most of those same people I know began to hate him after he became a deity. Cyric became either a raving madman (literally) or a complete idiot - sometimes both.
Because Cyric could not be shown to have "won" anything (being evil and all), you get Midnight as Mystra - and you get her alignment shifted to Neutral Good. Then you get the whole ordeal where she basically waves her hand, stripping Cyric of his access to the Weave, displaying how much more powerful she is over him and thus more "kewl."
...and I think those events right there is what drew much of the anti-Mystra hate that endured since that time forward. Because it was after that the Realms really gave her center stage, totally eclipsing all other deities and given more and more power. (Yet, forever restrained from actually using it.)
Damn... another rant. :P
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Yet another rant:
I believe much of the above is a consequence for the reaction to the death of Mystra. Most people I know (even here on the forums), were shocked to learn that Cyric had killed her. I admit: It even had me dumbfounded at first. My first thought was, "But Cyric is an idiot!"
However, when you think about it things make perfect sense. Cyric was acting perfectly within his portfolio, and was one of the most powerful deities in the setting. Perhaps, he wasn't as powerful as Shar or Mystra, but surely Shar and Cyric working together was enough to overpower Mystra, right? Cyric is the god of murder, lies, intrigue, illusions and strife. How is it not possible that a god with those credentials have very little chance of actually pulling off a feat, especially when allied with the deity of secrets, darkness, loss and forgetfulness (among other things)? Why is it surprising? It really shouldn't be all that shocking, and yet (even for me) it was - and I think it did a lot to rehabilitate the character.
Cyric in my mind has become a more viable and worthy deity. He's actually been successful at something. Sure, he might have been used slightly by Shar, but he actually was successful at something major. He committed a murder, didn't die in the process, and caused a whole lot of strife as a result - exactly what he is supposed to do.
Okay, I am done ranting. :P
I liked the idea of the Weave, I just hated the fact that it was controlled by a deity. Deities, by their very nature, are self-interested. The Weave was so important to the setting, not only for arcane magic users, but the gods themselves also channeled their divine power to their clerics using it. The Weave was so integral that the deity that controlled it could literally cripple their enemies or rivals, and because the setting was so magical, was constantly being fed an endless stream of "power."
I liked the Weave too. I just hated the monopoly Mystra seemed to have (and this is just my perception, remember).
If you take a neutral deity, such as Azuth and put him in charge of it then it isn't much of a problem. He's about as exciting or as interesting as a vanilla envelope. He'd have to be placed in an extreme circumstance to actually abuse his power, but otherwise he's going to keep to himself and keep silent.
Which is why I've breathed some life into Azuth's personality. He's not as "noble" in my own realms as he is in some of Ed's works. He's actually becoming increasingly Nietzschean; as in, he believes those with the ability to work great feats of magic should, be it to benefit or harm another, and that those who are not capable of such spellcraft (be they Damaran Apprentice Mage #27 or Magic-Fearing Nar #6) can resent their magical superiors for all they like (it doesn't matter much to them). Azuth himself isn't going to abuse his power; without the Weave, he doesn't have an ace in the hole to abuse. It's everyone under the sun who uses arcane magic that might abuse their power. Azuth is willing to let them test the waters; it's only when they do something truly and utterly foolish (like go on a magical killing spree in Waterdeep) that he feels they deserve punishment (the other mages of Waterdeep join together and slay the serial killer). This might not appeal to everyone (it might even repel some), and I must admit, at times it makes Azuth sound like a hypocrite (but a little hypocrisy is one of my favorite flaws in a deity, if a flaw at all).
I like the idea of a deity of magic who is interesting and defies the mold. The traditional expectation of a D&D God of Magic is Azuth or Oghma. It is fun to turn that on its head. Mystra could have done that but was restrained.
I agree. That's why several of the magic gods in my homebrew world are unorthodox by the traditional expectations. I used Azuth in this case because I felt he was always overshadowed by Mystra. I know that it's really my fault and not the previous editions; I could've put Azuth in the limelight more, but I didn't, and I accept that. But in this way, I figure I'm rectifying a past mistake.
I agree. That's why several of the magic gods in my homebrew world are unorthodox by the traditional expectations. I used Azuth in this case because I felt he was always overshadowed by Mystra. I know that it's really my fault and not the previous editions; I could've put Azuth in the limelight more, but I didn't, and I accept that. But in this way, I figure I'm rectifying a past mistake.
I also think Azuth got the short end of the stick in canon as well. Comparing him to Mystra was like comparing a candle to the light of the sun. No matter how much closer the candle is to you, the sun will always out shine it. Mystra did that to a lot of deities, for example: she completely shut Selune out of the conflict with Shar... when the main conflict was supposed to be between the other two deities. Mystra was just so much more powerful that Selune became virtually insignificant in comparison. At least that was the perception that was created, especially in 3E after the Weave vs Shadow Weave conflict.
Which is why I've breathed some life into Azuth's personality. He's not as "noble" in my own realms as he is in some of Ed's works. He's actually becoming increasingly Nietzschean; as in, he believes those with the ability to work great feats of magic should, be it to benefit or harm another, and that those who are not capable of such spellcraft (be they Damaran Apprentice Mage #27 or Magic-Fearing Nar #6) can resent their magical superiors for all they like (it doesn't matter much to them). Azuth himself isn't going to abuse his power; without the Weave, he doesn't have an ace in the hole to abuse. It's everyone under the sun who uses arcane magic that might abuse their power. Azuth is willing to let them test the waters; it's only when they do something truly and utterly foolish (like go on a magical killing spree in Waterdeep) that he feels they deserve punishment (the other mages of Waterdeep join together and slay the serial killer). This might not appeal to everyone (it might even repel some), and I must admit, at times it makes Azuth sound like a hypocrite (but a little hypocrisy is one of my favorite flaws in a deity, if a flaw at all).
I don't think it sounds hypocritical at all. Think about it: If Wizards start going on a killing spree, then what happens to other wizards? People begin to fear wizards, and when that happens they tend to go after and kill wizards. It's purely self-interest: Azuth's only claim to power is magic, and thus if his spellcasting base is persecuted, especially if they are killed in large numbers, he is adversely impacted. After all, why is Commoner_18272 going to worship Azuth? He has very little impact on their daily lives.
As for your augmentations to Azuth's personality I like it. It does make him slightly more appealing. Although, I'd add in a twist: Have Azuth's followers believe that wizards, due to their intellects and power, are the most worthy to rule. Thus, he'd support governments run by wizards, or at the very least governments with wizards in high ranking positions. They need not be tyrannical in nature, of course (but those would be supported as well), but something more akin to a kind of arcane aristocracy.
That would make Azuth unique. He'd really stand out and become an interesting deity, not only to worship as a wizard, but as a cleric as well. Not to mention he'd gain followers outside of his small base, common folk who embrace the philosophical idea proposed by Azuth. Just imagine the conflicts such a thing could cause in... say... Cormyr.
I never had any issues with the way the Weave was set up nor the fact that a god controlled it. To me, this was the way Ed wanted magic to be in his Realms so I just accepted it as presented. My biggest problem with 4E Realms has been the total spit in the face they gave to that old system. I'm not going to try debating whether it was a bad or a good system because it is all based on personal opinion. So my motivations for bringing back Azuth are strictly to restore some small portion of the game world I loved. I can live with the changes to the magic system and I can live with the death of Mystra. But want some sort of legacy of Mystra's to live on. So I want to restore Azuth as the god of magic-users so that he can give guidance to them in this very new world of using magic.
Of course, I'm not saying anyone's opinion is wrong. My opinion is above (in the form of ranting), along with speculation. Some people love Mystra and thought she was the best thing since sliced bread. I didn't, but it's all mostly irrelevant now... so. :P
See my point about Azuth above in response to LordManshoon. Maybe you'd like the idea presented... or maybe not. :P
Of course, I'm not saying anyone's opinion is wrong. My opinion is above (in the form of ranting), along with speculation. Some people love Mystra and thought she was the best thing since sliced bread. I didn't, but it's all mostly irrelevant now... so. :P
See my point about Azuth above in response to LordManshoon. Maybe you'd like the idea presented... or maybe not. :P
Yeah, I know. I didn't mean that as confrontational. I appreciate everyone's view on the Realms and I enjoy ready everyone's post. Mainly the reason why I started the thread was to see what everyone else thought about Azuth and the gods of magic. It gives me some very useful ideas when I next speak to my future DM. It's been so long since I've gamed I am so excited.
As for your augmentations to Azuth's personality I like it. It does make him slightly more appealing. Although, I'd add in a twist: Have Azuth's followers believe that wizards, due to their intellects and power, are the most worthy to rule. Thus, he'd support governments run by wizards, or at the very least governments with wizards in high ranking positions. They need not be tyrannical in nature, of course (but those would be supported as well), but something more akin to a kind of arcane aristocracy.
That would make Azuth unique. He'd really stand out and become an interesting deity, not only to worship as a wizard, but as a cleric as well. Not to mention he'd gain followers outside of his small base, common folk who embrace the philosophical idea proposed by Azuth. Just imagine the conflicts such a thing could cause in... say... Cormyr.
I love it! I'm definitely going to use this. The added benefit is, this could start a conflict with another deity. If Azuth tries to make inroads into a nation with a proud, conservative nobility, Siamorphe might take offense. If Azuth meddles in a lawful benevolent government, he might draw the ire of Torm; same goes for lawful malevolent governments and Bane. Thanks very much for the idea, Meldread!
No problem, it was your development of Azuth's personality that inspired the idea in my mind. Now that I'm thinking about it even more, if Halruaa is still around in your FR, then Azuth would make a great deity for an "official" state religion.
If Halruaa is no longer around, his priests could tell tales of it's greatness, and envision it (with plenty of embellishments, of course) as the "ideal" near-Utopian society.