Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 suin_bahhar_02 Aug 01, 2009 15:31:58	Any ideas why Bane chose to spare the Goblin dieties by giving them shelter on Banehold? It's obvious goblins make good minions, but would Maglubiyet and his pawn dieties be as managable? Oh, by the way. Did the goblin race on Fearun arrive before the arrival of dwarves and elves?
#2 LordManshoon Aug 01, 2009 15:40:07	Any ideas why Bane chose to spare the Goblin dieties by giving them shelter on Banehold? It's obvious goblins make good minions, but would Maglubiyet and his pawn dieties be as managable? The goblin deities, if I recall, are cowards at heart, at least when faced with a superior enemy. Bane doesn't like slaying potential thralls because he knows that if he does, their servants might scatter and start worshipping just about anyone. I always pictured Bane as conquering his opponents, forcing them to submit and then assuming control of their resources and power (which is just what he did in this case). Because most goblins worship the goblin deities (and while I don't have statistics to validate this statement, I don't think I'm being overly bold), Bane knows he can gain the loyalty of the better part of an entire race by having the two goblin gods under his thumb. Were he to simply kill them, many goblins would turn elsewhere for worship, and Bane's net gain would be substantially lower. Rather, Bane prefers to keep the two alive, so that he can indirectly benefit from a large influx of faithful (rather than directly prosper from a small influx). In turn, the two goblin deities gain a stronghold in the Astral Sea, the aid of several powerful deities, and a master who prefers symbiosis to parasitism. They know that as long as they don't move against Bane, they'll most likely be fine. Really, of all the evil gods, Bane is the only one whose mercy is close to being genuine. At least, that's my take on it. As for the second part of your question, I have no idea. I thought it went Elves > Goblins > Dwarves, but I don't really remember. Sorry.
#3 suin_bahhar_02 Aug 01, 2009 17:45:02	I agree with most of your thoughts there... But it has got to be a seriously bad PR for the more human-centric side of Bane's church. Would the addition of the goblinoid dieties to Banehold not be seen as a liability by most priests of Bane? It would make convincing the northern moonsea farmer with a scythe #34 to allow Bane's order that much more difficult. Or are we seeing something happen to goblinoid races similar to the rise of the Kingdom of Many Arrows i.e. greater racial tolerance of goblinoids? Are hobgoblins, goblins and bugbears accepted more readily in the 15th century cities of Fearun, especially in those who see a lot of Zhentarim mercenaries?
#4 LordManshoon Aug 01, 2009 17:57:21	I agree with most of your thoughts there... But it has got to be a seriously bad PR for the more human-centric side of Bane's church. Would the addition of the goblinoid dieties to Banehold not be seen as a liability by most priests of Bane? It would make convincing the northern moonsea farmer with a scythe #34 to allow Bane's order that much more difficult. Or are we seeing something happen to goblinoid races similar to the rise of the Kingdom of Many Arrows i.e. greater racial tolerance of goblinoids? Are hobgoblins, goblins and bugbears accepted more readily in the 15th century cities of Fearun, especially in those who see a lot of Zhentarim mercenaries? Well it could very well be that the times have indeed brought about serious social change. I mean, if drow are tolerated in most cities nowadays, I don't see why goblins wouldn't be. As for PR, I imagine most Banites don't take "no" for an answer. Bane has never brought out the milk and honey when a good mace would do. A typical conversation might go something for this: Human Banite Priest: "The Church of the Black Hand would appreciate your crops, good farmer, as would Bane himself smile upon your loyalty." *Goblin Banite Priest walks by to the barn* Moonsea Farmer: Goblin! Where's my scythe? HBP: "Do not worry, goodman, Krissguk here is as loyal to the Black Hand as I am, through his devotion to Hruggek." MF: "But he's a goblin! Has the Church of Bane become infested with savages?" *Two Banite Templars move to either side of HBP* HBP: "You should not speak about the Black Hand's church in such a way, farmer. Bane accepts all those who are wise enough to submit to his might, be they human or not. As for those who do not possess such wisdom..." *brandishes his mace* MF: "I... I misspoke, sir priest. I should not have doubted Bane. I... I'd be happy to give my patronage to his church." This is just one of hundreds of different takes on this situation. Is this one good PR? Not really. But the church of Bane really doesn't need a pretty smile when its intimidating presence does its work for it.
#5 suin_bahhar_02 Aug 02, 2009 9:34:05	Heh. Pretty effective point and likely dialogue. But Bane might need people who are willing to come of their own volition to his church and having treacherous goblins amongst the clergy will not be a welcoming prospect for some. I wonder how large the population goblins is in cities such as Baldurs Gate, Yulash and Amn. If some of them get a taste for the urban life I wonder in what businesses they would fare well. Are goblin neighbourhoods now as common as halfling quarters? If you would make a goblin city thrive in the realms, where would you place it? What town would make a good citadel under the tyranny of Maglubiyets or Hruggeks clergy?
#6 LordManshoon Aug 02, 2009 10:59:09	Heh. Pretty effective point and likely dialogue. But Bane might need people who are willing to come of their own volition to his church and having treacherous goblins amongst the clergy will not be a welcoming prospect for some. Oh, Bane definitely needs willing servants (be they clergymen or laypeople). I imagine Bane would try to gain some sort of control over the inclinations of his goblin servants. Human Banites can be quite treacherous; I think part of the reason why goblins wouldn't be trusted isn't because they're necessarily treacherous, but because their race has a time-tested legacy of treachery. If the goblins were to restrain their capricious instincts and show themselves off as beneficial to society in some way, I imagine they would become tolerated and possible even accepted. However, I would also think that in areas where Bane's church has a firm grasp on society, such as Mulmaster or the Lake of Steam region, goblin priests wouldn't have to play pretend. They could be as loathsome as they wanted, as long as it didn't go against Bane's will. I wonder how large the population goblins is in cities such as Baldurs Gate, Yulash and Amn. If some of them get a taste for the urban life I wonder in what businesses they would fare well. Are goblin neighbourhoods now as common as halfling quarters? I could see Goblins doing well as deliverymen, messengers, and tavern servants (in some of the seedier dives). I don't know how far society would let goblins rise, but I imagine they could work their way up over the years. While goblin neighborhoods aren't really mentioned, I imagine there must be one in Baldur's Gate. Yulash and Amn are still possibilities, but I have a better feeling about BG. I could even see goblins in Waterdeep. Halflings have certain stigmas in certain areas, but they'd still be much more accepted than goblinkin. If you would make a goblin city thrive in the realms, where would you place it? What town would make a good citadel under the tyranny of Maglubiyets or Hruggeks clergy? Hmmm. This is a zinger. If goblins were to be calling the shots without interference, it would have to be somewhere where the surrounding peoples are either apathetic or too tied up to deal with the goblin tyrants. I might place the goblin city in Muranndin; the monstrous empire usually mentions its ogre and troll populations, but I'd imagine goblins could make a strong living there.
#7 suin_bahhar_02 Aug 02, 2009 12:14:04	Muranndin is a nice locale for setting up a bane sponsored goblin crusade if the sothilisian empire can be removed. Murann is the town the Banites are likely to have conquered by the 15th century. I believe it already got sacked in 1370 by the sothilisians so the weakened defences could have given the banite goblins an opportunity to settle a community of goblins behind the walls. Bane's holdings can be all over the place if he has the goblinoids building shrines and holy sites for him. The goblin held territories in Thethyr from the south plus he's got the human centred clergy in the Moonseas more north, the Fortress of the Black Hand in Chessenta from the east. Only the Swordcoast and Western Heartlands are beyond Bane's gauntleted grasp...
#8 lord_karsus Aug 02, 2009 13:40:14	Any ideas why Bane chose to spare the Goblin dieties by giving them shelter on Banehold? It's obvious goblins make good minions, but would Maglubiyet and his pawn dieties be as managable? -Power. Domination. Personal strength. Those three things embody who Bane is, right there. Oh, by the way. Did the goblin race on Fearun arrive before the arrival of dwarves and elves? -There are no specific mentions of Goblins existing on Abeir-Toril before Dwarves that I can find, nor are there any mentioning the existence of them before Elves. Orcs existed before both, as did a plethora of other races, so it is not unlikely, if "evidence" ever comes forth to definitely prove things one way or another. In the past Goblinoids have had nations and empires, so...
#9 suin_bahhar_02 Aug 02, 2009 14:00:34	Bane does seem to have made some powergrabs after the spellplague that solidify his personal power by acting towards his portfolio. But his powersurge of actually including the millions of worshippers the gobbo's provide is the most dangerous in my opinion. Cyric's imprisonment must have been a large part of this, but I see few dieties actually able to oppose Bane if he truly deploys all of Baneholds assets.
#10 LordManshoon Aug 02, 2009 14:14:18	Bane does seem to have made some powergrabs after the spellplague that solidify his personal power by acting towards his portfolio. But his powersurge of actually including the millions of worshippers the gobbo's provide is the most dangerous in my opinion. Cyric's imprisonment must have been a large part of this, but I see few dieties actually able to oppose Bane if he truly deploys all of Baneholds assets. I agree. I noticed that in Lords of Darkness, Bane's church was considered a minor threat to Faerun, while Cyric's was labeled a major threat. In the FRCG, though, the Church of Bane is listed as a major threat, and Cyric's church isn't mentioned at all. I'm glad to see the Black Hand rise in power. Cyric is one sun I want to see set.
#11 lord_karsus Aug 02, 2009 18:27:09	I agree. I noticed that in Lords of Darkness, Bane's church was considered a minor threat to Faerun, while Cyric's was labeled a major threat. In the FRCG, though, the Church of Bane is listed as a major threat, and Cyric's church isn't mentioned at all. I'm glad to see the Black Hand rise in power. Cyric is one sun I want to see set. -Also, keep in mind, when Lords of Darkness was set, the Church of Bane recently came back into existing, with Bane's sudden reawakening something of the very recent past. LoD was something like one of the first couple of Forgotten Realms products written after the FRCS.
#12 aumvor Aug 02, 2009 18:31:02	Lords of Darkness is probably my favourite sourcebook ever released, together with Faiths and Pantheons. It is amazing.
#13 LordManshoon Aug 02, 2009 18:32:50	-Also, keep in mind, when Lords of Darkness was set, the Church of Bane recently came back into existing, with Bane's sudden reawakening something of the very recent past. LoD was something like one of the first couple of Forgotten Realms products written after the FRCS. Ah, that explains it. Thing is, I held off buying sourcebooks until the tail-end of 3.5. For most of my experience with 3E/3.5 FR, I just had the FRCS. Then towards the end, I did a bit of online shopping, and got: Lords of Darkness, Shining South, City of Splendors: Waterdeep, Magic of Faerun, Lost Empires of Faerun, Powers of Faerun, Dragons of Faerun, Underdark, Champions of Valor, and Champions of Ruin, at once. All together, it was about $75.00. So I don't quite remember the order of publishing.:embarrass
#14 suin_bahhar_02 Aug 03, 2009 15:55:27	I agree. I noticed that in Lords of Darkness, Bane's church was considered a minor threat to Faerun, while Cyric's was labeled a major threat. In the FRCG, though, the Church of Bane is listed as a major threat, and Cyric's church isn't mentioned at all. I'm glad to see the Black Hand rise in power. Cyric is one sun I want to see set. I like the munchkin trickster Cyric is, so I'd gladly see his story continue. His position in the fearunian pantheon is unique and interesting with him being only a fledlging ascended mortal wielding very powerful portfolios. Few evil trickster gods exist in D&D. Cyric's maddened image by Brom is also one of the reasons I got hooked to him, and the ToT and forgotten realms with him. His church didn't seem to have sat still at all, as Cyric is one of the prevailing powers worshipped in Amn. They are mostly limited to human worshippers though, a weakness compared to Bane. With Muranndin sitting south to Amn the conflict between Bane and Cyric might take an interesting turn. If Bane can be blamed for the increase in power of the murann goblins south of Amn, Cyricists will likely be fighting alongside other Amnian clerics against followers of Bane. This might be one of the reasons the Cyrisists are openly worshipped over there. ___ So consider a Banite church has plans for conquest in Thethyr. What numbers might be reasaonable for a typical Bane sponsored army? How many gobbo's would actually march with him if shaman and clerics of Hruggek and Maglubiyet don't agree on the direction taken. Goblins loyal to their own dieties would rather wait out than help puny humans. I can see clerics of Bane getting adjusted to goblin culture, which is filled with constant powerstruggles, but the distinct lack of privacy in goblin warrens will grate on the nerves of any human. And the only way to keep a warrens under control is by constant and brutal correction. I can see how this can become a weakness for the church, as this will tie down the hands of powerful sections within Bane's church.
#15 LordManshoon Aug 03, 2009 16:04:31	So consider a Banite church has plans for conquest in Thethyr. What numbers might be reasaonable for a typical Bane sponsored army? How many gobbo's would actually march with him if shaman and clerics of Hruggek and Maglubiyet don't agree on the direction taken. Goblins loyal to their own dieties would rather wait out than help puny humans. Oh, crap. I'm always terrible with gauging the necessary numbers a military force on Toril might need to secure victory. I always get thrown off by the simple "Spellcaster > Magicless" trend. Anywhere from 10,000-20,000 to have a real chance of steamrolling Tethyr, less if they settled for just a chunk. Tethyr is known for many militaristic/knightly orders, so it would be a fight. If the shamans and clerics of the Goblin Duo don't agree, I would imagine Bane would probably force Hruggek and Maglubiyet to convince their followers otherwise. Bane wouldn't take "No" for an answer where conquest is involved. Banites might also seek out Balagos of the Flying Flame for aid; he's been a long-time thorn in Tethyr's side. If they can seduce the Branch of Linden into siding with them, they'd have an "in" and could start occupying much quicker. I can see clerics of Bane getting adjusted to goblin culture, which is filled with constant powerstruggles, but the distinct lack of privacy in goblin warrens will grate on the nerves of any human. And the only way to keep a warrens under control is by constant and brutal correction. I can see how this can become a weakness for the church, as this will tie down the hands of powerful sections within Bane's church. Very true, but consider this: Hruggek and Maggie submitted to Bane shortly after the Spellplague broke out. Their followers have had the better part of a century to synthesize with Bane's orthodox churches. I don't think the problem is anywhere as serious as it once was.
#16 quale1 Aug 05, 2009 4:44:13	Any ideas why Bane chose to spare the Goblin dieties by giving them shelter on Banehold? It's obvious goblins make good minions, but would Maglubiyet and his pawn dieties be as managable? Oh, by the way. Did the goblin race on Fearun arrive before the arrival of dwarves and elves? It's possible that they came from Faerie, c. - 27 000 DR, when lots of portals and pools opened there As for Bane and Maglubiyet, they were neighbours in Acheron, maybe he accepted their servitude in exchange for protection against Gruumsh, possibly by manipulating and changing the balance of the never-ending orc-goblin war on the cube
#17 LordManshoon Aug 06, 2009 22:13:20	It's possible that they came from Faerie, c. - 27 000 DR, when lots of portals and pools opened there That idea has been gaining ground, lately. As for Bane and Maglubiyet, they were neighbours in Acheron, maybe he accepted their servitude in exchange for protection against Gruumsh, possibly by manipulating and changing the balance of the never-ending orc-goblin war on the cube Very possible. Which reminds me: I wonder how the Talosian humans reacted when they learned their god was really just Captain Tusks in disguise. I think most of them probably would have hopped on board a train that wasn't bound for Nishrek, personally.
#18 quale1 Aug 08, 2009 0:56:29	I don't know, it seems logically that they would keep the name Talos and all previous religious customs, Gruumsh is just too different. I guess most of them would rather kill themselves. Or they went on a pilgrimage to Vaasa and became heretics.
#19 suin_bahhar_02 Aug 09, 2009 16:13:22	Regarding Talosians reaction to the revelation of their god's origin I think the larger part of his human clergy would have lived in denial for a few decades untill they could see or experience the proof of Gruumshs deception first hand. A tale of the afterlife of a resurrected faithfull might be enough to send waves of dissent and anger through the church. This anger will have likely be vented and most clerics would want to keep their powers of destruction while expressing their outrage. A splitoff "heresy" is likely to be embraced by the human talosions if Gruumsh doesn't revoke the powers of the heretic clergy. ___ I dont see goblins as unseelie fey. So I but heavy doubts by the notion of them coming from fearie. I think goblins are better of classified as proto-humanoids of an older age. I am thinking on giving them a primordial origin, being fastbreeding (cheap) foot troops created by a joint venture of allied primordials in some ancient time (perhaps in anticipation of the war with the gods) engineered to invade the god created primes. Their elemental plane origins have been largely lost over the millenia and but their eagerness to conquer the primes is all that remains or the primordials touch... Mags cerainly has some affinity to fire elementals as he is known to have flaming weapons and fiery eyes that shoot fire. Perhaps he did create the goblins himself but he took instructions from elemental primordial princes.
#20 LordManshoon Aug 09, 2009 16:18:13	Regarding Talosians reaction to the revelation of their god's origin I think the larger part of his human clergy would have lived in denial for a few decades untill they could see or experience the proof of Gruumshs deception first hand. A tale of the afterlife of a resurrected faithfull might be enough to send waves of dissent and anger through the church. This anger will have likely be vented and most clerics would want to keep their powers of destruction while expressing their outrage. A splitoff "heresy" is likely to be embraced by the human talosions if Gruumsh doesn't revoke the powers of the heretic clergy. Sounds good to me. Personally, in my 4E realms, Talos is still the Destroyer of old, and Gruumsh is still Gruumsh, so I never really stopped to weigh the possible outcomes of canon's "divine identities revelations". Mags cerainly has some affinity to fire elementals as he is known to have flaming weapons and fiery eyes that shoot fire. Perhaps he did create the goblins himself but he took instructions from elemental primordial princes. I wonder if the Archomentals of old are still around (possibly/likely as Primordials). Personally, I don't see Kossuth enlisting the service of Maggie, but I can see Imix giving him directions.
#21 quale1 Aug 18, 2009 7:16:23	yea, some of the archomentals are mentioned as primordials now. Goblins and elementals, I don't see the connection. They're too fleshy.