MrJake
In the 3e realms, Blackstaff formed the Moonstars to protect the realms from "the 3 who wait in darkness, the Prefects, and ourselves." Was it ever made clear to whom or what he was referring?
MrJake
I believe 4ED made the prophecy null and void! Like so many other wonderful things!
I could be mistaken though.it can be used for a campaign, no matter that Moonstars are gone
no, that one is still unexplained, and it should remain that way
it can be used for a campaign, no matter that Moonstars are gone
are you sure, you must not of read blackstaff tower
Very annoying. Steals a sceptor, makes a secret deal with Fzoul, forms the moonstars, and suddenly...all was for naught.
are you sure, you must not of read blackstaff tower
I'm not sure
thought Moonstars merged back with Harpers
what happens in the book?
not interested in reading any new novels
no, that one is still unexplained, and it should remain that way
-Agreed (even if this is renderer void by a newer novel). Unexplained mysteries are good.
no, that one is still unexplained, and it should remain that way
it can be used for a campaign, no matter that Moonstars are gone
Hmmm. I guess my next question will be a little unpopular then.
Where do you think they were going with that plot line?
The Shadovar would seem like a good candidate for for one of the three who wait in darkness.
The Phaerim might be the second, being trapped underground and all.
And wasn't there some flying ball, uber powerful shapeshifters that came from/through the Plane of Shadows?
The Imaskari might be candidates as well, but they don't seem like bad guys, at least not so far (as in about 1375 or so).
As for the Prefects, no idea. The term 'prefect' is usually used in reference to religious organizations, so maybe a holy war?
MrJake
In the 3e realms, Blackstaff formed the Moonstars to protect the realms from "the 3 who wait in darkness, the Prefects, and ourselves." Was it ever made clear to whom or what he was referring?
MrJake
Only Khelben knew what their ultimate goal was. Tsarra had access to that knowledge, but we don't know that she ever acted on it. The fact that the Tel'Teukiira weren't around for Blackstaff Tower shows that either the various Blackstaffs after Khelben let the organization collapse, or that maybe the purpose for which they were found was dealt with.
It's quite possible that after Tsarra, the other Blackstaffs didn't see what the point was, and/or didn't believe the prophecy, so they let the Moonstars fold.
are you sure, you must not of read blackstaff tower
As we know from Rich Baker... the Moonstars were eventually "re-absorbed back into the Harpers."
Steven Schend also said, some months ago, that "Tsarra lives past 1395 DR, as do many Moonstars."
MrJake
As we know from Rich Baker... the Moonstars were eventually "re-absorbed back into the Harpers."
Steven Schend also said, some months ago, that "Tsarra lives past 1395 DR, as do many Moonstars."
about 14 years later she and her apprentice gets killed in battle along with many of the moonstars but not all of them.
like the harpers, i think the moonstars dispanded until blackstaff tower, by Mr. Schend...
The fact that the Moonstars and the prophecy were just kind of quietly dropped leads me to believe that the particular storyline had a destination that wasn't compatible with the 4e time jump. I get that. I'm just curious as to where the plot might have been headed if the revamp hadn't occured.
-That, or like so many other plot threads Weave across the setting, it was ignored purposely or accidentally without any other ulterior motive.
On a related note, since I don't read the novels, could someone fill me in on exactly what happened with the death of the Blackstaff? Fill free to send a private message if we're not supposed to discuss that sort of thing on the forums.
MrJake
He participated in a ritual that culminated with bringing an Elven city back from where ever it was, at the expense of his own life.
MrJake
Ergo, the old Roll of Years may no longer apply, and Shar's Roll has taken prominence.
What that means is that a lot of prophesy may never come true now that the timeline has diverged. Some still might, as long as it was sufficiently removed from Mystra's existance.
This theory also explains why Sevaras couldn't see past the events surrounding Mystra's death. Because it was a point of divergence, there was no way of seeing beyond that 'knot' in time.
#2 - Why are the Moonstars gone? You don't have to remove them from your game unless you want to. I take the sourcebooks as the 'general knowledge' known throughout the Realms, which means it isn't entirly accurate. Like the Harpers, their demise may have been greatly exaggerated.
In fact, I think it makes them even more interesting if they were a super-secret group operating within the Harper organization. Sort of an 'Internal Affairs' dept. that keeps tabs on individual harpers - something the Harper organization itself really never bothered to do (and is why Khelben felt more specific goals and organization was needed).
Picture them in the background, manipulating the manipulators... and they work so much better IG. ;)
Personally, I'd change the name, though. I've always hated that name with a passion (it sounds ridiculously close to 'Monsters').
MrJake
Private messages make me feel special.
Oh, and I already know the why as in the mechanics of it, i.e. why the ritual required it. What I'm interested in is why sacrificing a force for good was worth it. Aside from the obvious one of disposing of iconic character in order to free up the realms for new titans to arrive.
MrJake
Still, I really do believe you're depriving yourself the opportunity to experience some quality Realmslore by not reading Blackstaff. Which is why I've not chosen not to spoil it for you.
MrJake
What is MT?
MrJake
well depending on context, its either Markustay nick shortened, OR its the Mystic Thuerge a prc from 3.x that i despise
The Shadovar would seem like a good candidate for for one of the three who wait in darkness.
Just my opinion, but that's too obvious.
As in 'MT', pronounced "Empty", as in Shar's black heart.
BTW, I was called that in HS, so I love that people have started doing so here.
What was so special about that one elven city that trading Khelben for it was a good idea?
What was so important about that city? Well, so much was done... with... it...
Nevermind...
More 'old-school' designer goodness being ignored by the new regime.
As in 'MT', pronounced "Empty", as in Shar's black heart.
-You know, that never even occurred to me. Though, when speaking to others in reference to you, I do indeed call you 'Markus', and not 'Empty'.
I was a bit of a Space-Cadet in HS, and my other nick was 'Twilight' (as in Twilight Zone). That was given to me by a Math teacher who always caught me staring out the window during class, rather then listening to him.
He would call on me for answers just to trip me up, which I would answer accurately 100% of the time, and then go back to staring out the window. I think I bugged-him-out, so he would tell the Class that "Mark was in the Twilight Zone again".
I wonder if I could go back and sue him....
Anyway, I like "Empty" much better, because it has a bit of a Goth ring to it.
MrJake
What was so important about that city? Well, so much was done... with... it...
Nevermind...
More 'old-school' designer goodness being ignored by the new regime.
I say better it not be touched at all than screwed up (although, I'm ignoring 4E Realms anyway, so I don't really care at this point...).
;) :P
MrJake
Shar
Cyric
either that or what killed off most of the moonstars, TAra and her heir.
Dark and Empty
Shar, Lolth, and Gruumsh perhaps...
Aboleth, Illithids, and Beholders perhaps...
Maybe Dendar, Kezef, and the Elf-Eater...
Almost anything really that has an association with darkness or lightless places. It could refer to the Underdark, the depths of the seas, or even the lower planes...
As to the prefects... could be a lot of things, almost anything really. Malkazid maybe... The Shadow King... Wendonai... who knows?
At any rate, its doubtful it will ever be revealed definitively, although one never knows.
or Bane, Bhaal, Myrkul
Seriously, tho, if the shadovar weren't one the "3 who wait in darkness," then who do you think they were?
-Anyone. That's why prophecies are so vague. You can fit plenty of things into the equation with generality. The darkness, for example, doesn't have to be literal, but can represent something/someone what is simply not from Faerûn. Thus, it is in the darkness until it arrives, hidden. It could denote people/things from the Underdark. Or people who are overshadowed by others, and bitter about it.
I was only reading that the other day, and now I can't remember where that was (I had assumed it was in the 3e CG).
Anyone know what I'm talking about? They existed before Mystra and Shar, even. It was part of a creation story for Realmsapce.
EDIT: Nevermind... got it. They are the Shadevari, the Thirteen Lords of Shadow, and they are mentioned in a sidebar on Pg.141 of F&A.
but neither did 3rd with the weighted point buy.
well, mind you, the prefects, the three who wait in shadows...
as been said could be anybody.
the prefects could be the primordials
the three who wait in darkness:
shades' empire of shade
that group of underwater creatures, the group it started with X
the church of shar
At any rate, its doubtful it will ever be revealed definitively, although one never knows.
True dat. There is a glimmer of hope, tho. The Battletech universe went through a similar timejump a few years ago when the game went from pen and paper (kindof) to "Clix" miniatures. There was enough interest in the original format for "Classic" Battletech to be continued and supported pretty well. The situation isn't exactly the same, of course, but who knows? Maybe we'll get an "alternate universe" Faerun where original storylines were cont. A 3rd party supplement perhaps.
A long shot, but the market usually gets what it wants.
MrJake
for what its worth, 2nd never did anything justice statwise.
but neither did 3rd with the weighted point buy.
-Woe is us. Though, the books that they were in didn't portray them as very impressive either, for their histories.
I found their histories far more interesting than their stats, or abilities.
the three who wait in darkness:
shades' empire of shade
that group of underwater creatures, the group it started with X
the church of shar
Shade is perfect, as is the Abolethic Sovereignty, but Shar's Church doesn't work for me.
Even if she is all about darkness, the prophesy seems to hint at three things that were hidden, and Shar's church was pretty well-known, but the first two work great. I think it works better, for people wanting to use this plothook, to leave the last one open for DMs to develop for themselves.
I was thinking the Eminence of Araunt, but that doesn't work for me either, because it is more about Abeir, and I think these three 'Hidden Threats' should be very Toril-specific.
The other way to go would be to look at the prophesy and where the first two came from - both were hidden in murky realms 'removed' from regular Toril. I would think the threat lies in the now-missing Ethereal, or perhaps Limbo. It needs to be sufficiently removed from the 'normal world' for it to fit "who wait in darkness".
Maybe the Drow? Lolth could be the third threat, but Drow are a bit over-played in FR already (not that Shar isn't, and much more so).
Maybe 5e FR will come back to 1385DR and continue into this Alternate Dimension... because 4e would bankrupt and they would go back to 3.75e!
Pitchforl? You kids and you're weird slang these days... :P :D
-Yeah, here's a slang for you:
!:P
-No, no, no. I'm not Cormyrian Farmer with Pitchforl #3. I just play him on TV. Well, rather the Forgotten Realms porn movie that was going to be directed by Dan.
Wow, I can't believe that I'm going to admit to this, but...
I'd watch that.
MrJake
-Yeah, here's a slang for you:
:P
Feel nothing but love for you too snookums. ;) :P
:evillaugh
And I wouldn't watch it myself... I've a feeling Dan's tastes don't run to mine.
MrJake
Or would that be a demotion?
MrJake
I believe 4ED made the prophecy null and void! Like so many other wonderful things!
I am fully with you on this one.
The three can be Shades, drow, vampires,.... literally anything, but these are my favourites.
The Dark Three is also a good idea (Bane, Bhaal, Myrkul for those who don't know already)
-That it has become minimized, and/or seemingly forgotten doesn't make it null and void. Until something implicitly creates a resolution, it's still "in the background". In comic books, things like this happen all the time. Bucky, for example.
Yep. I like Bucky as Cap, especially after the Winter Soldier thing. He is trying to Redeem himself and the story and art are working for me.
What's Shar's Roll? The name sounds good.
Shar's Roll of Years, more formerly known as The Black Chronology.
They are different then Mystra's, and seem to start with the ToT (where the ascendency of Cyric appears to be paramount).
Yep. I like Bucky as Cap, especially after the Winter Soldier thing. He is trying to Redeem himself and the story and art are working for me.
Like how Kid Flash took over for The Flash after he died?
Been there, done that...
I like the concept of the suit being fillled by others. My problem with comics is that they keep the smae guy in the same role for years. In some cases like the Flash, Green Lantern and Cap there can be other people in those outfits at the end of the day and good stories can be written about them. Even though DC has opted to place Hal and Flashes replacements in the background in favor to try to appease Silver Age fanboys (just my guess) they can always bring the replacements back when Hal and Barry fail to sell.
I am sure Steve is in cryo somewhere slowly healing from his death wounds. I know this. I still like Bucky as Cap. It is well done and fun.
After a while every story we ever will read is just a rehash of another story. That is life.
Don't forget the two Ironmans, or all of Marvels Goliaths, Antman, and 'Yellowjacks'. (why is it Hank Pym is only good for making up identities for other people?)
Even Mutants aren't immune - didn't they brng back that Amer-Indian one (Warpath?) who died? I think it was his kid-brother or some such.
I prefer it when "sidekicks go bad", like Rick Jones or Snapper Carr. My favorite is the guy from The Incredibles... can't wait for the sequel. :D
Yep. I like Bucky as Cap, especially after the Winter Soldier thing. He is trying to Redeem himself and the story and art are working for me.
-Did not know that. I don't have enough money to follow comics as I had a year ago, even.
-Let's focus back on the Blackstaff's prophecy, though.
The Prefects, tho, seems a little more specific. Is there any other reference to them in Realmslore?
MrJake
-Did not know that. I don't have enough money to follow comics as I had a year ago, even.
-Let's focus back on the Blackstaff's prophecy, though.
No problem. You should wait and buy the trades of the new Cap stuff. It will probably be cheaper than the single issues and the storylines have more of an espionage feeling to them. To me it got better after Cap bit it. ;)
MrJake
the 3 who wait in darkness, the Prefects, and ourselves
Mask, Shar, Cyric --> the events that led to the death of Mystra
Return of the primordial armies? Prefect could be a term for the leaders of the Archon armies
The inevitable collapse of Faerun spanning organized good in the face of a multiregion geographic disaster? Or perhaps the slow corruption of the Harpers or stagnation of other traditional forces for good?
... couldn't speak about references in novels though.
-None of those either, I don't believe.
A) Is made and fulfilled in the past, in that it's effects are already fairly established lore (Take Myth Drannor, and Garnet releasing the Trio Nefarious).
B) Made, but never actually ever 'solved' in present-day lore.
-I have no problem with it.
If I intend to start my next campaign from the City of Hope, how large would the population be around 1376? How could the local economy have been impacted? Who is its the local ruler again? Any permanent citywide magical effects that need to be viewed at when visiting?
MrJake
Not even then for me... they just bug me in principle, since I absolutely detest the idea of predestination.
-Well, that's a 'problem' with you, then. In the lightest sense of the word, hence the quotations.
If I intend to start my next campaign from the City of Hope, how large would the population be around 1376? How could the local economy have been impacted? Who is its the local ruler again? Any permanent citywide magical effects that need to be viewed at when visiting?
-There are no canon answers. But, speculation and such is for another thread.
I posted a question concerning the prophecy to Ed Greenwood on the Candlekeep forum. The general opinion, unfortunately, is that Mr. Greenwood will be unable to answer any questions concerning it due to nondisclosure agreements. They said they'd ask him, tho.
MrJake
Just to note... when I replied to you earlier in Ed's scroll at Candlekeep, I was working on the basis of Ed's most recent replies on the subject. [Which were quite some time ago as I recall] Things may have changed for Ed over the last few months... which could possibly allow him to share a little more on the subject.
But given the focus of the current Realms, and the subject matter of both Blackstaff and Blackstaff Tower by Steven Schend, I'm inclined to believe this subject is still firmly in NDA territory.
:D
I don't want to know this answer if it's ever revealed
-True. Another "age old" mystery being solved. Ho hum.
Oh, and thank you, Sage. I appreciate you taking the time to answer, on 2 different forums, no less. I knew it was a longshot, but, had to try.
I'm running out of things I find offensive enough to argue over these days
There's nothing wrong with use activated, unlimited charges, True Strike weapons. It's RAW. Cost: 5K gold.
Any DM who permits a PC to die for any reason is the worst sort of DM.
DnD is a waste of time. You should get a life.
If the RAW doesn't say I can't do it, then I can do it. Otherwise, it would be in the RAW.
Any Dm who doesn't kill every PC he/she can, at every opportunity, is a wuss.
The only thing a player has to do in a social situation is roll dice. That's why the game has skill checks.
If my build is stronger in combat than your build, then your character is useless.
DMPC's should always be the focus of a campaign. Otherwise it's boring to be the DM.
Stigger is a stupid name. You shouldn't be allowed on the forums.
Hope these help. :D
MrJake
Well, the unofficial and semi-official answers were both "no," which means it doesn't look good for the official answer, either.
"MrJake, I'm afraid the "Khelben matters" you're interested in are NDA, precisely because Ed doesn't want to do ANYTHING to trammel future possibilities for books by Steven Schend or work by other folks designing or writing for the Realms. He can express the specifics better than I can, of course."
-- So Saith The Lady Hooded One
There's nothing wrong with use activated, unlimited charges, True Strike weapons. It's RAW. Cost: 5K gold.
Any DM who permits a PC to die for any reason is the worst sort of DM.
DnD is a waste of time. You should get a life.
If the RAW doesn't say I can't do it, then I can do it. Otherwise, it would be in the RAW.
Any Dm who doesn't kill every PC he/she can, at every opportunity, is a wuss.
The only thing a player has to do in a social situation is roll dice. That's why the game has skill checks.
If my build is stronger in combat than your build, then your character is useless.
DMPC's should always be the focus of a campaign. Otherwise it's boring to be the DM.
Stigger is a stupid name. You shouldn't be allowed on the forums.
Hope these help. :D
Not really, I consider those attitudes towards gaming concepts, and not really topics worthy of my spending time and devoting my precious brain cells towards contemplating, much less debating over...
Except that last one there, I'll agree it is a stupid name and that I shouldn't be allowed on the forums, or out in public really, but that's the downfall of democratic systems. :evillaugh
Ummm...your mama's so fat that....the dragon wouldn't eat her because...it was watching it's cholesterol?
Maybe?
MrJake
"MrJake, I'm afraid the "Khelben matters" you're interested in are NDA, precisely because Ed doesn't want to do ANYTHING to trammel future possibilities for books by Steven Schend or work by other folks designing or writing for the Realms. He can express the specifics better than I can, of course."
-- So Saith The Lady Hooded One
Soooo...20 years?
Mrjake
And thanks again for the responses. I actually waited several weeks after someone originally suggested that I post a question on the Candlekeep forum. I guess subconsiously my response was "Yeah, and I'm sure Ed Greenwood, the Creator of the Realms, will get right back to me."
And then that's exactly what happened.
Thanks again for the help. May you and yours enjoy only the best tidings this New Year.
And tell Mr. Greenwood, "Thanks for everything," on my behalf.
MrJake
MrJake
Is this thing on?
Whew, tough crowd.
Mrjake
Totally
Incompetent
Gopher
Gonadded
Easily
Ridiculed
foolish mortal thing
And my "thing" isn't mortal. It's totally everlasting and timeless. And diamond studded. And cute. Yeah, I said it. Cute.
MrJake
Modicum?!
I got your modicum right here!
Umm, no, wait....
MrJake
MrJake
In a solo campaign I'm running, the PC fought side by side with some stereotypical elves and really took a liking to them. She even looked up some obscure 3.0 3 lvl Prestige class of "Elf Friend" or something and made it clear she wanted to take it some time. Her character learned Elvish and made up an elven nickname for herself.
A short time later she got involved with the Dusk Circle (near Kheldell in the Realms). In my campaign the 3 druids of the circle represent the 3 aspects of nature, NG,NN,NE, with the elf member the NE one. She didn't know that, of course, and tried to make friends with him by speaking in elvish ("your accent is disgusting"), giving him a book of elvish poetry she had found ("trite, populist literature"), and by asking him to be the one to guide her to a dungeon she was looking for ("stoney silence").
After completing the adventure, inc. rescuing some captives (she told them to look for the druid outside, he'd help), she returned to their rendezvous only to find that he had torn the rescuees to shreds and proceeded to beat the crap out of her. Just when it seemed like he was going to kill her, he grappled her in bear form, pinned her, and said, "Not every elf wants to be your friend, and sometimes, when we smile, we're thinking about how much we'd like to see you die." Then he headbutted her unconscious and treewalked away.
I can't wait to spring the "shining sword of the people" on her. But, hey, she's been warned.
MrJake
Overall, the PrC seems more heavily weighted toward roleplaying than many, if not most, of the other PrC. The uninterrupted spell progression is nice, as are the reflex and will saves, BAB is avg. It's certainly a well balanced PrC, but the additional abilities do lack a certain oomph.
two 3 lvl prc that I thought were garbage..
MrJake
In the words of Ed Greenwood (from The Annotated Elminster): "Elves are monsters!"
One of my favorite lines in the book - and it appeared in the 'notes'. :D
OMG! It just hit me! Stigger is the Third!
MrJake
so that means your one of those who wait in darkness
I am not the 'droid you're looking for.
Mrjake
hahaha
you see I was off on Nar Shada kicking some Scum and Villainy
There was real topic here at one point?
I must have wandered into the wrong boards... :P
nobody ever takes the halflings seriously, so they will show you, you will learn
you will fear them
and then Tiax rules all
Tiax hears ya
When Tiax rules the world, you will be a bunion on left toe, you will be grateful for the chance
Tiax was a gnome though... at least as far as I recall. Montaron was the halfling.
yeah he was the gnome, I thought monty was a dwarf...... no matter, likem better dead anyway