Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 stormbirdd Sep 02, 2010 17:30:25	New blog started called Dead Stay Dead, Inc. It examines popular fantasy notions that don't really work. Glance at it, see what you think. deadstaydeadinc.blogspot.com/ Blog 1) The Problem with Zombies Blog 2) Kobolds Don't Carry Cash! Comment if you feel moved. Thanks. - Verdre Aspianne
#2 Einlanzer Sep 02, 2010 19:34:28	There are certain fantasy tropes that I find to require too much suspension disbelief.   1.  Hybrid creatures - Centaurs, pegasi, etc.-  They don't make anatomical sense. A centaur is a mammal that has 6 limbs and 2 torsos, how does that work?  Also, flying horses?  Sorry, not my cup of tea.  I tend to limit these things a bit in my games and have a requirement that natural creatures have explainable evolutionary origins.     2.  Power escalation - Sure, you have to have some of it to feel a sense of progression and epicness, and part of fantasy is bending well-understood physical laws (magic, etc.) ... but how much is too much?  When you have a single individual that wields the power to destroy cities it gets to be a little much. 3.  Real Gods - This causes me to have an issue with many fantasy settings (FR and DL mainly).  In my opinion, gods and religion should be handled mythologically rather than literally.
#3 Diffan Sep 05, 2010 12:58:51	There are certain fantasy tropes that I find to require too much suspension disbelief.   1.  Hybrid creatures - Centaurs, pegasi, etc.-  They don't make anatomical sense. A centaur is a mammal that has 6 limbs and 2 torsos, how does that work?  Also, flying horses?  Sorry, not my cup of tea.  I tend to limit these things a bit in my games and have a requirement that natural creatures have explainable evolutionary origins.   Pegasi are greek in origin so you can probably blame them lol. But I really have a problem with trying to defend "realism" and not being able to suspend disbelief when it comes to Fantasy and Sci-fi.  Hybrid creatures are weird and unresonable yet throwing fireballs and raning down lava from spells is A-ok? 2.  Power escalation - Sure, you have to have some of it to feel a sense of progression and epicness, and part of fantasy is bending well-understood physical laws (magic, etc.) ... but how much is too much?  When you have a single individual that wields the power to destroy cities it gets to be a little much. Totally agree. It was a main beef I had with 3.5 and the abilty to cast epic spells. 3.  Real Gods - This causes me to have an issue with many fantasy settings (FR and DL mainly).  In my opinion, gods and religion should be handled mythologically rather than literally.    Not really sure what you mean here? That deities shouldn't have as much a hand in the material plane as they do? I agree with that, that there shouldn't be a God stepping in and handling anything unless the fate of the world is in the balance. But Gods should still grant spells/prayers, etc... and have some relevance in a campaign setting.
#4 Einlanzer Sep 06, 2010 17:28:26	There are certain fantasy tropes that I find to require too much suspension disbelief.   1.  Hybrid creatures - Centaurs, pegasi, etc.-  They don't make anatomical sense. A centaur is a mammal that has 6 limbs and 2 torsos, how does that work?  Also, flying horses?  Sorry, not my cup of tea.  I tend to limit these things a bit in my games and have a requirement that natural creatures have explainable evolutionary origins.   Pegasi are greek in origin so you can probably blame them lol. But I really have a problem with trying to defend "realism" and not being able to suspend disbelief when it comes to Fantasy and Sci-fi.  Hybrid creatures are weird and unresonable yet throwing fireballs and raning down lava from spells is A-ok? It's not really the same thing, at least not in my mind.  Raining fireballs doesn't really make much sense, but it's a little more explainable than having a half-horse half-man with two torsos and 6 limbs as a natural creature, or taking to the skies on a horse with wings in a world with gravity and evolutionary mechanisms.  I guess the scientific part of me supersedes the fantasy loving part of me in some respects.     3.  Real Gods - This causes me to have an issue with many fantasy settings (FR and DL mainly).  In my opinion, gods and religion should be handled mythologically rather than literally.    Not really sure what you mean here? That deities shouldn't have as much a hand in the material plane as they do? I agree with that, that there shouldn't be a God stepping in and handling anything unless the fate of the world is in the balance. But Gods should still grant spells/prayers, etc... and have some relevance in a campaign setting. I have a hard time with gods in general.  IMO, religion should be done like it is in Eberron universally, where religions are organizations based on dogma and gods are believed but not seen (like in the real world as well).  This is related to both #1 and #2 for me as I'm an agnostic-bordering-on-atheist in real life I have a hard time accepting the literal existence of deities in fantasy, and when their presence means the existence of super-powerful beings that dabble in the affairs of the world it threatens my suspension of disbelief too much.
#5 Nai_Calus Sep 06, 2010 21:21:34	Hilariously, I'm also agnostic-bordering-atheist, and I *like* interfering, obviously real gods. It makes the world feel more fantastic. This isn't the real world. There's magic. There's frippin' elves. There's multiple planes of existence, most of which are only accessible normally through magic. I'm OK with there being real gods who find mortal affairs interesting and poke their fingers into them.
#6 zayhen Sep 07, 2010 11:53:20	There are certain fantasy tropes that I find to require too much suspension disbelief.   1.  Hybrid creatures - Centaurs, pegasi, etc.-  They don't make anatomical sense. A centaur is a mammal that has 6 limbs and 2 torsos, how does that work?  Also, flying horses?  Sorry, not my cup of tea.  I tend to limit these things a bit in my games and have a requirement that natural creatures have explainable evolutionary origins.   Pegasi are greek in origin so you can probably blame them lol. But I really have a problem with trying to defend "realism" and not being able to suspend disbelief when it comes to Fantasy and Sci-fi.  Hybrid creatures are weird and unresonable yet throwing fireballs and raning down lava from spells is A-ok? It's not really the same thing, at least not in my mind.  Raining fireballs doesn't really make much sense, but it's a little more explainable than having a half-horse half-man with two torsos and 6 limbs as a natural creature, or taking to the skies on a horse with wings in a world with gravity and evolutionary mechanisms.  I guess the scientific part of me supersedes the fantasy loving part of me in some respects.     3.  Real Gods - This causes me to have an issue with many fantasy settings (FR and DL mainly).  In my opinion, gods and religion should be handled mythologically rather than literally.    Not really sure what you mean here? That deities shouldn't have as much a hand in the material plane as they do? I agree with that, that there shouldn't be a God stepping in and handling anything unless the fate of the world is in the balance. But Gods should still grant spells/prayers, etc... and have some relevance in a campaign setting. I have a hard time with gods in general.  IMO, religion should be done like it is in Eberron universally, where religions are organizations based on dogma and gods are believed but not seen (like in the real world as well).  This is related to both #1 and #2 for me as I'm an agnostic-bordering-on-atheist in real life I have a hard time accepting the literal existence of deities in fantasy, and when their presence means the existence of super-powerful beings that dabble in the affairs of the world it threatens my suspension of disbelief too much.   It has more connection with your tastes and imagination than your opinion about religion or biology. I like hybrid creatures and active gods. But as anything in literature it needs creativity and some sense to use it.
#7 suin_bahhar_02 Sep 08, 2010 8:08:23	Evolution used to be a real trigger word for some posters here to go alll ballistic... They would defend the notion that most creatures of D&D (elves the prime example) were created by gods wholecloth, given their cultures by their diety complete with all skills, traits and abilities to survive. I am really dual on this. These creation stories shoudn't be taken at face value, because pondering on fantastic prehistory should be rife with uncertainties. Its a fun thought exercise to look at fantasy myths and try dissect their essence into the moral message, their reason they were told and the rituals that followed from them. To translate them into the physcial truths misses the point of religion. ___ What I did like from this stance was the view that arcane magic functions as the science of fantasy. The explenations scholars in Fearun give to their surroundings is largely steeped in esoteric lore explained with mathematical truths totally different from our world. In other words, basic chemistry (or alchemy) and mathematical physics are the basis for casting those fireballs. Mythological creatures that defy physics are then possible to exist because the physics of fanasy worlds IS (slightly) different. Evolution on such a planet will diverge from ours in ways only limited by your imagination. Creatures that evolve on a more magical evolutionary track might develope seemingly unpractical traits but have assets that work because of the magic infused in their environment. Just as an electric eel uses hyperevolved nervecells to generate voltages in his skin, a pegasus might have evolved innate spellcasting to reduce their wheight and produce magical wings through use of alternate form.  This scientific approuch of fantastic evolution can then include dieties as well. Six limbed mammals might have formed a distinct branch of magical mammals because they were touched by the gods at some point in history. A pegasus might have been formed when a horse was dreaming (praying) and a animal totem/primordial/god took pity and granted wings to his herd. Such entitities actively changed the evolution and helped it along several steps of the evolotionary branch (a divine version of Mass Polymorph). N.B Divine magic is then prehaps an intuitive magic that is generated by sentients when they are intune with their (specialized) activities and their surroundings. Faith in a certain cause on a magical world has enough power to change the self AND the world around them. Enough minds organised into holding the same view then resonates into the astral to create dieties. A diety is linked to his followers in a way similar to Astral Projection; if his followers stop concentrating on him he'll cease to exist. Having them able to walk the surfaces of worlds in avatars is mostly a reversed trick of astral projection, it's but a limited shard of the true essence of the diety. In D&D a diety only truely exist and be destroyed in the astral on their domians. Torils gods were essentially removed from themselves for a while during the Time of Troubles and most found it easier to take over an existing mortal, then continually using an avatar-shard of themselves to interact with Fearun.
#8 zayhen Sep 08, 2010 8:20:27	Nice points you took. I think the main problem about this suspension of disbilief thing is people trying to throw their points too hard for others.
#9 Nai_Calus Sep 08, 2010 18:56:58	The whole 'God needs a starship' thing has been stupid from the beginning and really needs to be slaughtered along with the sacred cows that didn't need slaughtering. I've always hated it and find it insufferably stupid. The  way it should be is that gods don't need the Enterprise. They don't need little timmy's prayers. They won't go splat if nobody believes in them. They're gods, ffs. (And when I run, they very much are real, are exactly what they claim to be, and yes, they are paying attention and will in fact cheerfully insert themselves in your business if it suits them to do so.) Which is the entire point of the Athar, yes, in that the gods apparently for some stupid reason DO need the Enterprise, but the Athar are also my least favourite planescape faction.
#10 zayhen Sep 09, 2010 6:18:54	I have nothing against the gods needing something from the mortals. Just remember that the mortals may not know this. And in fact, the great majority - even priests - don't know how does the faith thing work. You are just remembering the bad things about god's "faith diet". Remember de Believers of the Source: anyone can be your own god! Just evolve and fight for it. And even the godsmen have faith on some god or another as this help they understand the path they need to go.
#11 frosty14 Sep 09, 2010 13:41:37	Come on it is a frackin game. So why not just have fun with all of the improbable stuff. Like it matters in the slightest little bit. That is why it is called FANTASY. Meaning it is not real in the slightest. so just take it for what it is worth.......A FUN  TIME FOR ALL...LOL
#12 Jorunhast Sep 09, 2010 18:11:30	Come on it is a frackin game. So why not just have fun with all of the improbable stuff. Like it matters in the slightest little bit. That is why it is called FANTASY. Meaning it is not real in the slightest. so just take it for what it is worth.......A FUN  TIME FOR ALL...LOL Because it affects gameplay.  What one person likes in fantasy may be very different than what other fans like in their fantasy. It's the difference between the Lord of the Rings world and, let's say... the world of Krull.  All these little things add up, and can dramatically affect someone's enjoyment of the game.
#13 stormbirdd Sep 10, 2010 11:24:33	Wow, this got a lot more play here than I expected. Thanks for the discussion, folks. A third post on the topic called "Evil by the Numbers", is up. deadstaydeadinc.blogspot.com/ Thanks. - Verdre