(1) A number of people, on various Forgotten Realms related message boards, have commented that some of your novels (thus far, specifically Darkvision, Stardeep, and Plague of Spells) contain elements that are “unRealmsian”, or are fairly foreign in relation to the rest of the setting. The preview of Plague of Spells says specifically, “Lovecraftian Horror in Faerûn!”. Can you discuss what it’s like to write in a shared world setting, like the Forgotten Realms are? The challenges, the benefits, and other relevant details, specifically about keeping a distinct writing style and personality, while staying true to the canon, and what the Forgotten Realms represent?
I'm not sure who wrote the "Lovecraftian" catalog copy in regard to Plague of Spells, but OK, I'll take it as a complement :-)
As far as writing novels for the Forgotten Realms, I love it. The Realms is a setting designed to allow a thousand stories to simultaneously be told. This offers every author lucky enough to work in this shared world the opportunity to craft a story uniquely hers or his. There is room for nearly any kind of tale in the Realms, and don't let anyone tell you different merely because a particular style of story hasn't been told before. The Realms has room for horror, mystery, and other styles of writing that break from established tropes. The generous sales figures of books like Darkvision and Stardeep bear this out.
No, Mystra died to provide room for a raft new stories in novels and games. Her leash on magic has concluded.
That presumes new stories and novels couldn't have happened with Mystra still alive.
For instance, it was posited that Abeir might be populated by vicious intelligent creatures that looked something like a cross between a dragonfly and a wasp that controlled a large empire by special psychic poisons. Interesting, but ultimately not the way Ed went when he wrote Returned Abeir for the FRCG.
Well, thank God for small miracles!
Don't get me wrong - I love Ed's writing - but he's obviously a one-trick pony.
Anyhow, I'm not so sure if that idea (psychic wasps) would have been any better or worse - any idea could be great, if worked-in correctly.
As for the rest - I've already made my comments at CK.
I'm just very happy he decided to answer these for us (despite skirting the obviously 'loaded' question about Abeir... and who's idea that was).
He actually still blazes on leaving Abolethic slime tracks all over Toril. I approve. He only needs to sink his teeth into some more interconnected stories. I think his Plague of Spells series will do his writing style good. Pacing character growth with character design, one of his strong suits, might work better with some more pagecount and plot exposition.
Psychic wasps with mind control posions. Sounds like somthing intriguing for a spelljammer setting. Imagine Mystra succumbing to a sting from a psychic wasp. Better they went for the divine drama.
Don't get me wrong - I love Ed's writing - but he's obviously a one-trick pony.
I don't agree--Ed's written in other genres.
That presumes new stories and novels couldn't have happened with Mystra still alive.
Surreal enough as it is that I am a) suggesting a better interpretation to Mr Cordell's words and b) querying you, good lady, I would like to suggest an alternate hypothesis:
Although aware that more stories could be told while retaining Mystra, the design team may have had no inclination for doing so, or to be nicer about it they may have considered that the effort vs. result tradeoff was too skewed in favour of the former. That realisation gained a decision was made "This far and no further" and they drew a line under it.
I am not suggesting that these were the decisions that were made or that the thought process in reaching them resembles what I have described, this is just an attempt to show a way that this decision could have been made while accepting further stories involving Mystra could be told.
Surreal enough as it is that I am a) suggesting a better interpretation to Mr Cordell's words and b) querying you, good lady, I would like to suggest an alternate hypothesis:
Although aware that more stories could be told while retaining Mystra, the design team may have had no inclination for doing so, or to be nicer about it they may have considered that the effort vs. result tradeoff was too skewed in favour of the former. That realisation gained a decision was made "This far and no further" and they drew a line under it.
I am not suggesting that these were the decisions that were made or that the thought process in reaching them resembles what I have described, this is just an attempt to show a way that this decision could have been made while accepting further stories involving Mystra could be told.
Oh, I totally agree with you, Ilvurien.
I honestly don't think the team (as a whole) wanted to keep Mystra around, as comments that some of the designers have made in the past suggested, to me, that at least a few people on the team agreed with those consumers who think the character of Mystra is a liability to the Realms. Taken at face value, Bruce's answer struck me as very similar to a comment he made in the online article (with him and Phil Athans) about why the Realms were changed. He said that the authors were "running out of places to tell stories", and for that reason he set his stories in areas that are distant from the Heartlands of Faerun. These comments about needing to change the Realms (ie. kill off Mystra, transform the physical continent, move the timeline) because they've run out of room to tell new stories strike me as fallacious at best, and disingenuous at worst. That is probably why I felt moved to comment on it.
Don't get me wrong - I love Ed's writing - but he's obviously a one-trick pony.
Uh-uh. His non-Realms novels (such as the Niflheim series) and short stories show otherwise. The basic nature of Abeir would have been handed down to Ed.
These comments about needing to change the Realms (ie. kill off Mystra, transform the physical continent, move the timeline) because they've run out of room to tell new stories strike me as fallacious at best, and disingenuous at worst.
If they'd ever actually argued rather than just asserted that claim, we might have some reason to think it other than implausible and empty; there was a recent thread in which everyone drew a blank on what stories Realms-2008 could support that the Realms couldn't (much like my thread that failed to turn up anyone who credited Rich's arguments for zapping Mystra). And that against definite, concrete 14th-century stories now without prospect of being told.
Psychic wasp/dragonfly things.... glad that one got dropped.
I quite like the idea, but I'm a sucker for anything psionic. :D
including more information, but spoiling future products, or giving less information, as not to spoil future products?
Which is preferable from a lose/lose situation. Actually, at least one way is better because at least then the DM can write whatever result or scenario as required. Of course this then has the risk of ending up with some non-canon explanation that can cause a later issue.
I don't agree--Ed's written in other genres.
And he does a very good job of it too. :D
No, Mystra died to provide room for a raft new stories in novels and games. Her leash on magic has concluded.
Also known as the two openly stated bypasses (psionics and the Shadow Weave) and the point that Greenwood left wide open the minor issue that othe non-Weave based magic existed was inadequate. We could not be bothered to use the options we had already provided ourselves for getting around Mystra nor build up and use conflicts between different types of magic user. Nuking the illusion that Mystra still controlled magic in FR along with nuking Mystra herself was infinitely more fun.
I could almost sympathize with the desire to free up supernatural power so that it didn't all come under the jurisdiction of one divinity. I could even almost sympathize with doing so at the cost of weakening a concept and divinity that I've greatly enjoyed. Hells, I rather liked the PGtF description of psionics as magic that effectively bypassed the two Weaves. What absolutely infuriates me is that Mystra's control of supernatural power was already effectively neutered by 3.X. The design team killed her off and dismantled the Weave to remove a leash on magic THAT NO LONGER EXISTED!!!!
Rant complete, moving on now.
Or is Bruce criticizing the existence of a god of magic per se? Which is an argument for a godless setting. Or referring to the canard of Mystra stopping certain wizards from casting spells? I've already gone to more effort in understanding that answer than he did in making it.
I do find that 'leash on magic' phrase ridiculous and even wonder if it's supposed to be deliberately provocative. It's like banning the tradition of English-language poetry and saying 'Now you can write poetry in any other way you like!' Except you always could and in fact there's now a new, more rigid, less developed, less beautiful and poetic magic system imposed by the new ruleset.
Or is Bruce criticizing the existence of a god of magic per se? Which is an argument for a godless setting. Or referring to the canard of Mystra stopping certain wizards from casting spells? I've already gone to more effort in understanding that answer than he did in making it.
Actually I think he is referring to the erroneous concept that a God controls its portfolio with absolute mastery. This concept did seem to prevail particularly in reference to Mystra, and especially in her ability to deny its use to anyone. Considering this it could be considered a leash, and the reason it is negative is because it completely goes against a polytheistic setting where individual cultures might have their own Gods. With this in mind I don't really agree with the diminishing of the number of Gods, however I completely agree with the reduction of Mystra's power in this case via death. There is little doubt in my mind that she will return, devoid of absolutes.
This concept did seem to prevail particularly in reference to Mystra, and especially in her ability to deny its use to anyone.
That ability amounts to about one sentence in Faiths & Avatars and one dubious episode in a novel. For all intents and purposes Mystra does not do that and people in Faerûn don't think she does (hence her worship by most evil mages). It's an utterly marginal red herring that will lead one nowhere in actually understanding Realms magic, religion and society.
If 'Her leash...has concluded' as a positive event has any meaning, someone must have been leashed, to their detriment? Who?
Actually I think he is referring to the erroneous concept that a God controls its portfolio with absolute mastery.
Actually I don't see what's so erroneous about that concept. That's kind of the point of having areas of life in a setting watched over by fantastically powerful beings. If you don't want that, you can have the godless setting as mentioned before (and by the way, I wouldn't see anything wrong with that--in fact, I'd be inclined to consider it a refreshingly original idea).
This concept did seem to prevail particularly in reference to Mystra, and especially in her ability to deny its use to anyone.
She had that ability, yes, but again that doesn't make her that different from the other gods. Mystra was not the only deity who actively took an interest in the affairs of mortals and had the power to affect said affairs according to her portfolio.
That ability amounts to about one sentence in Faiths & Avatars and one dubious episode in a novel. For all intents and purposes Mystra does not do that and people in Faerûn don't think she does (hence her worship by most evil mages). It's an utterly marginal red herring that will lead one nowhere in actually understanding Realms magic, religion and society.
If 'Her leash...has concluded' as a positive event has any meaning, someone must have been leashed, to their detriment? Who?
Oh I don't know...Netheril, any magic using character, npc, especially evil magic users. As far as it being marginal, I would have to beg to differ, it is in fact a recurring theme in both short stories and novels set in the FR involving Mystra or her agents.
Actually I don't see what's so erroneous about that concept. That's kind of the point of having areas of life in a setting watched over by fantastically powerful beings. If you don't want that, you can have the godless setting as mentioned before (and by the way, I wouldn't see anything wrong with that--in fact, I'd be inclined to consider it a refreshingly original idea).
I can't say that I would want a godless setting, I can however say that I desire more than one god of magic, more than one god of storms, more than one god of agriculture. I have no problem with fantastically powerful, I have a problem with absolute, and it is neither conducive to the setting or in keeping with the nature of polytheistic religions.
She had that ability, yes, but again that doesn't make her that different from the other gods. Mystra was not the only deity who actively took an interest in the affairs of mortals and had the power to effect said affairs according to her portfolio.
She was really one of the very few who controlled one of the building blocks of the universe. Murder is not essential to the world, lies are not essential to the world, arcane power...without it Toril does not exist. It is definitely a matter of degree.
...without it Toril does not exist.
-Sure it does. Contrary to popular belief, as KtM used to like to say, the world does not go *BOOM* without Mystra/The Weave. Were that the case, it would have gone *BOOM* already.
As far as it being marginal, I would have to beg to differ, it is in fact a recurring theme in both short stories and novels set in the FR involving Mystra or her agents.
I've read a lot of stories involving Mystra and her agents and I have to say I disagree with you.
I can't say that I would want a godless setting, I can however say that I desire more than one god of magic, more than one god of storms, more than one god of agriculture. I have no problem with fantastically powerful, I have a problem with absolute, and it is neither conducive to the setting or in keeping with the nature of polytheistic religions.
Please define "absolute" for the purpose of this discussion.
She was really one of the very few who controlled one of the building blocks of the universe. Murder is not essential to the world, lies are not essential to the world, arcane power...without it Toril does not exist. It is definitely a matter of degree.
Aside from LK's rebuttal to this comment, are you also POed about Chauntea? She IS Toril.
Oh I don't know...Netheril, any magic using character, npc, especially evil magic users. As far as it being marginal, I would have to beg to differ, it is in fact a recurring theme in both short stories and novels set in the FR involving Mystra or her agents.
The Netherese were not "leashed" until one of them decided to drain the divinity from the goddess of magic. Their magic was much more powerful than it is now in the current setting. As for Mystra having the power to deny magic, that was dealt with rather forcibly by Ao himself during her trial. In the books pertaining to Mystra and the chosen there is no rampant denial of magic to the evil mages of the Realms. Far from it, they have the full use of their powers even when fighting the Chosen.
-Sure it does. Contrary to popular belief, as KtM used to like to say, the world does not go *BOOM* without Mystra/The Weave. Were that the case, it would have gone *BOOM* already.
So the FR without magic is still the FR? It is something completely different, I of course concede that perhaps it does not go boom, but lets say it ain't pretty as has been evidenced numerous times.
I've read a lot of stories involving Mystra and her agents and I have to say I disagree with you.
I have read a lot too, and well for me there has always been a cloying smugness, or arrogance in the presentation of their behavior. Needless to say I have rarely felt any degree of empathy with them, and completely fail to understand why anyone would like them, of course to each their own. Perhaps much of what I feel is because I really dislike the novels written by Ed Greenwood. Like the setting, hate his novels.
Please define "absolute" for the purpose of this discussion.
Absolute as in being, governed by, or characteristic of a ruler or authority which is completely free from restraint. With magic the buck stops with her.
Aside from LK's rebuttal to this comment, are you also POed about Chauntea? She IS Toril.
Not really, perhaps because she has a pretty subtle hand in respect to her interaction with the setting, where as Mystra has a tendency to use a sledgehammer. Perhaps it is a case of familiarity breeding contempt.
The Netherese were not "leashed" until one of them decided to drain the divinity from the goddess of magic. Their magic was much more powerful than it is now in the current setting. As for Mystra having the power to deny magic, that was dealt with rather forcibly by Ao himself during her trial. In the books pertaining to Mystra and the chosen there is no rampant denial of magic to the evil mages of the Realms. Far from it, they have the full use of their powers even when fighting the Chosen.
Except for lets say Realms of the Elves p.276, where Larloch is enthralled by superpower x (silver fire), which could completely unravel his existence. Might as well deny him the use of magic. I am sure Ao said something about it, but I never made it all the way through that Trilogy it grated too much, thanks for the info though.
Water is pretty essential, so the likes of Istishia, Auril, and Talos/Gruumsh should go as well since they could conceivably cut it off.
Same goes for most of the nature deities really, since they could leash society from growing fairly easily by taking away arable land.
Or Gond deciding that engineering isn't going to work one day and toppling all of the castles and buildings, just to teach those mortals a lesson.
Most deities were more than capable of those absolute sorts of acts on some level, kind of why they're deities really, but just because they could, doesn't mean that they would.
As to the 'leashing' of magic, all of those groups you mentioned up there Kerym still had access to their magics, all of them were still pretty dangerous with it, and while they didn't perhaps like Mystra much, they were still allowed to use their magic in some pretty foul ways by her anyway. Certainly some turned to Shar, but given the drawbacks of the Shadow Weave, were they really any better off? Seriously, we're not talking about Mystra as a deity here, we're talking about the way she was portrayed in novels, which certainly wasn't the mandatory way of using her in a campaign at home... its a problem with the authors abusing the idea and writing themselves into a corner, not the deity/character really.
So the FR without magic is still the FR? It is something completely different, I of course concede that perhaps it does not go boom, but lets say it ain't pretty as has been evidenced numerous times.
-My statement has nothing to do with "Is the Forgotten Realms the Forgotten Realms without magic". That's up to you. It is simply to highlight that it is faulty logic to say that the planet would no longer exist should magic disappear*.
*In the sense that Mystra ceases to exist.
-That said, play nice everybody.
As to the 'leashing' of magic, all of those groups you mentioned up there Kerym still had access to their magics, all of them were still pretty dangerous with it, and while they didn't perhaps like Mystra much, they were still allowed to use their magic in some pretty foul ways by her anyway. Certainly some turned to Shar, but given the drawbacks of the Shadow Weave, were they really any better off? Seriously, we're not talking about Mystra as a deity here, we're talking about the way she was portrayed in novels, which certainly wasn't the mandatory way of using her in a campaign at home... its a problem with the authors abusing the idea and writing themselves into a corner, not the deity/character really.
Point and to expand on it the end of Crucible has willingly Mystra (AO's intervention is a misnomer, the only acting threat at the time was the Circle and they weren't really a factor in her decision) swearing not to attempt to enforce her mortal ethics on the use of magic. To return to my original argument and my key problem with Cordell's statement,
3.X introduces Shadow Weave, bypasses Mystra
3.X rules psionics are magic free of the Weave, again bypasses Mystra
Greenwood has openly stated that alternate magical systems exist that don't use a Weave and yes that's right bypass Mystra. As I had said earlier, if Mystra truly had absolute dominion over magic then I'd sympathize. She doesn't though 3.X killed that with two bypasses and Greenwoods statements on Candlekeep clear the way to make up more as needed or desired. Killing off a deity because of the very flimsy illusion that she maintains absolute control over magic is a touch annoying.
Seriously, we're not talking about Mystra as a deity here, we're talking about the way she was portrayed in novels, which certainly wasn't the mandatory way of using her in a campaign at home... its a problem with the authors abusing the idea and writing themselves into a corner, not the deity/character really.
I agree with most of what you say in the rest of your post, and really everyone is going to have a different take on it anyway. The quoted material is really at the heart of the matter for me in this particular instance, and why I think many felt compelled to get rid of her so they could officially redefine her. We can argue away about how it makes sense or how it does not make sense for Mystra to get essentially axed, however we cannot argue away the fact that she is in fact now deceased or imprisoned. At least examining the reasons that led up to it might help prevent such things from happening again in the near future. Burying heads in the sand and saying it did not need to happen does not change the fact that it did. Another realization is that the perception of something needing to be changed is as important as something actually needing to be changed.
In essence I don't understand the problem with BC's answer. It is how he perceived it, and based on the resulting product it is how most of the writers and designers perceived it. What makes the perception of some fans anymore important? If it is a colossal screw up they will know soon enough.
(Also Stigger I never used the gods as depicted in any of my campaigns set in FR. Their depictions were entirely too knowable. I prefer a degree of mystery in a religion, and a degree of free will in the worshipers interpretation of a gods wants and needs. So yeah I understand.)
Now if only Shar would cease being the end all be all of evil plots there might be some hope that they are moving away from repeating past mistakes.
Except for lets say Realms of the Elves p.276, where Larloch is enthralled by superpower x (silver fire), which could completely unravel his existence. Might as well deny him the use of magic. I am sure Ao said something about it, but I never made it all the way through that Trilogy it grated too much, thanks for the info though.
Well, to be fair there were also superpower spells introduced in books that for example boiled the blood of any elf touched regardless of defenses. In those cases and also the silver fire and Larloch they were never used and were plot points in the books used as warnings. Neither effect mechanically existed to no save kill them off. BUt I agree that sometimes they were portrayed as having a little too much power. Howrever, even with those powers the chosen died many many times and were cloned, raised, etc. They were not all powerful like the Shades of today's books. Unfortunately, they have already repeated all the mistakes they listed for Mystra and then some. The realms are a diverse and rich setting and why they need to focus on Shar to the detriment of everything else is beyond me.
Well, to be fair there were also superpower spells introduced in books that for example boiled the blood of any elf touched regardless of defenses. In those cases and also the silver fire and Larloch they were never used and were plot points in the books used as warnings. Neither effect mechanically existed to no save kill them off. BUt I agree that sometimes they were portrayed as having a little too much power. Howrever, even with those powers the chosen died many many times and were cloned, raised, etc. They were not all powerful like the Shades of today's books. Unfortunately, they have already repeated all the mistakes they listed for Mystra and then some. The realms are a diverse and rich setting and why they need to focus on Shar to the detriment of everything else is beyond me.
Don't get me started on Shar's little messengers, or Shar. Let's just say it has swung away from the Justice League over to the Legion of Doom. Good cheez, and evil cheez is ultimately still cheez.
Of course the thing is that really when I look at the amount of narrative cheez from the novels it comes from one source in disproportionate helpings.
At least examining the reasons that led up to it might help prevent such things from happening again in the near future. Burying heads in the sand and saying it did not need to happen does not change the fact that it did. Another realization is that the perception of something needing to be changed is as important as something actually needing to be changed.
Problem is that we have little say over the matter, any way it goes really. When it comes down to it, fellows like Mr. Cordell and Mr. Perkins are the ones who ultimately matter in terms of their opinions. Certainly ours can have some measure of influence, but they have to find some sympathy with their own for that to happen.
In essence I don't understand the problem with BC's answer. It is how he perceived it, and based on the resulting product it is how most of the writers and designers perceived it. What makes the perception of some fans anymore important? If it is a colossal screw up they will know soon enough.
There isn't a problem with his answers really. Its not what many wanted to hear, but that's neither here nor there. And I definitely agree that we'll find out soon enough if it was a screw up or not... I have a feeling it won't be from their perspective though in all honesty, quite the opposite really. They had to do what they had to do as a business, and while I don't care for their methods, I can't fault them for doing what they felt they had to.
(Also Stigger I never used the gods as depicted in any of my campaigns set in FR. Their depictions were entirely too knowable. I prefer a degree of mystery in a religion, and a degree of free will in the worshipers interpretation of a gods wants and needs. So yeah I understand.)
Now if only Shar would cease being the end all be all of evil plots there might be some hope that they are moving away from repeating past mistakes.
Heh, neither have I. And I competely agree they were far too knowable. The part that really bothers me though is that its such an incredibly unique pantheon in a lot of respects, one without a godhead, without clearly defined ranks and standings, that breaks almost every mould of what we know about pantheistic religion. It offers such an incredible amount of freedom to mess about with, that seeing them fall into mythological cliches is bothersome to me, since a lot of the pre-conditions of those cliches just doesn't exist within the Realms. At least the way I tend to view them anyway... I should probably mention that the comparison to the Greek Gods really bothers me, since I don't think it makes much sense for Faerun's deities.
I have read a lot too, and well for me there has always been a cloying smugness, or arrogance in the presentation of their behavior. Needless to say I have rarely felt any degree of empathy with them, and completely fail to understand why anyone would like them, of course to each their own. Perhaps much of what I feel is because I really dislike the novels written by Ed Greenwood. Like the setting, hate his novels.
You don't have to like those characters...but that wasn't what we were talking about (or at least, I don't *think* we were). I thought you said the stories in question are about Mystra having a "leash" on all magic. As a matter of fact, as per Ed the Chosen of Mystra exist as a "leash" on...Mystra.
Absolute as in being, governed by, or characteristic of a ruler or authority which is completely free from restraint. With magic the buck stops with her.
No, that's not true. As I mentioned before, the Chosen of Mystra are actually there as a check on Mystra's power (as per Ed), and of course, there's AO, who has power over all the gods.
Not really, perhaps because she has a pretty subtle hand in respect to her interaction with the setting, where as Mystra has a tendency to use a sledgehammer. Perhaps it is a case of familiarity breeding contempt.
Probably. As I said before, most of the gods are actively involved in the affairs, of mortals, including Chauntea. There just were never as many stories about Chauntea's followers as there were about Mystra's. I don't agree that Mystra lacks subtlety.
And honestly, if he doesn't like Ed's writing, why would he even bother with his stuff on Candlekeep? Hells, I do like his writing and don't bother with those... ;)
Heh, neither have I. And I competely agree they were far too knowable. The part that really bothers me though is that its such an incredibly unique pantheon in a lot of respects, one without a godhead, without clearly defined ranks and standings, that breaks almost every mould of what we know about pantheistic religion. It offers such an incredible amount of freedom to mess about with, that seeing them fall into mythological cliches is bothersome to me, since a lot of the pre-conditions of those cliches just doesn't exist within the Realms. At least the way I tend to view them anyway... I should probably mention that the comparison to the Greek Gods really bothers me, since I don't think it makes much sense for Faerun's deities.
I think most of the problem in the narrative that the gods of Faerun have been in to date lies in the presentation, and in the readers expectations. Being fantasy it is often taken too much at face value, or presented in a commonplace manner. Stories of gods were always teaching tools, not descriptions of actual events. Unfortunately in the fantasy genre, stories of gods turn into news reports, and interviews.
Chosen talk to their god, instead of being blasted by waves of ecstatic visions, or having guiding dreams that need to be interpreted. It does boil down to the novels, and the lack of mystery.
You don't have to like those characters...but that wasn't what we were talking about (or at least, I don't *think* we were). I thought you said the stories in question are about Mystra having a "leash" on all magic. As a matter of fact, as per Ed the Chosen of Mystra exist as a "leash" on...Mystra.
Liking the characters or not liking them does in fact color the perceptions of individuals. The perception of these characters holding magic is and was there for many readers. They clearly were not there for you, of course I never said that they were, because I thought this was a discussion based on artistic license, not a discussion based on facts or a singular truth.
As far as Ed's comments I would love to read it if you could direct me to it.
As far as Ed's comments I would love to read it if you could direct me to it.
Probably Candlekeep, in the Ask Ed Greenwood Threads. I know Old Sage has a link in his sig. So saith Ed
No, that's not true. As I mentioned before, the Chosen of Mystra are actually there as a check on Mystra's power (as per Ed), and of course, there's AO, who has power over all the gods.
Once again I don't know where this is written and would love to read it. Regardless based on the literature vis the intent of said literature I would still argue that what you are saying does not come through. I also love the use of AO, and his mention in a discussion. AO is without a doubt the dumbest contrivance Ed ever came up with at the behest of TSR. Of course technically you are right AO does have control of all the gods; amazing what becomes non controversial with time.
Probably. As I said before, most of the gods are actively involved in the affairs, of mortals, including Chauntea. There just were never as many stories about Chauntea's followers as there were about Mystra's. I don't agree that Mystra lacks subtlety.
You are free to think what you wish. I would love some examples of Mystra being subtle though, or some guidance of where I could read a story of Mystra or her Chosen being subtle, clearly I have missed them.
And honestly, if he doesn't like Ed's writing, why would he even bother with his stuff on Candlekeep? Hells, I do like his writing and don't bother with those... ;)
Actually I like his lore, and his game stuff. I have just had horrible experiences with his novels.
I guess its in the book sized thread somewhere, or would it be in one of the compilations.
As to Mystra being subtle, I can't think of many modern examples, though the pre-ToT one could be extremely subtle when she wished to be from what I've read. Midnight though... can't say I'm overly impressed with her, and greatly prefer the LN Mystra over her, though I like a lot of her 'policy changes' in many respects... ie the Magister being named rather than dueled over. That always bothered me for some reason. It just strikes me as incredibly inefficient and stupid as a way to select a supposed champion of magic... I can't think why anyone even remotely sane would ever want it.
-Anyway, Ao was not created by Ed Greenwood. He came into being when Troy Denning, under the pseudonym Richard Awlinsone (Or something to that effect. It's supposed to sound like 'All's in one') wrote the character in the novel Waterdeep. Presumably, at the bequest of the TSR people, I don't know the names of those people in charge.
You are free to think what you wish. I would love some examples of Mystra being subtle though, or some guidance of where I could read a story of Mystra or her Chosen being subtle, clearly I have missed them.
-Mystra guiding Elminster to train Sammaster, from AGHotR is a good example. It turned out bad for them, but...
-Crown Wars? Someone say Crown Wars?
-Anyway, Ao was not created by Ed Greenwood. He came into being when Troy Denning, under the pseudonym Richard Awlinsone (Or something to that effect. It's supposed to sound like 'All's in one') wrote the character in the novel Waterdeep. Presumably, at the bequest of the TSR people, I don't know the names of those people in charge.
I see so Troy Denning is to blame.
-Mystra guiding Elminster to train Sammaster, from AGHotR is a good example. It turned out bad for them, but...
I just read the original Cult of the Dragon, and the free pdf AGHotR. Was there a published short in the print AGHotR, because otherwise I fail to see how she was being subtle.
But it all reads the same, to me anyway. I could take all of the RA fluff and dump it somewhere in the Realms and no-one would notice a thing. I suppose I should read some of his other work, outside of D&D, but I really have no interest in doing so.
My point was, that as bad as psychic wasps with mind-control poison sound, at least it would have been an attempt at originality.
I think they were faced with two choices - keep the Realms the way it was and just create a story about why magic changed, or go whole-hog and re-vamp everything. Its pretty obvious that they went the 'reboot' route because "they were running out of room for stories to tell", not because it was beneficial to the IP or the consumers. It was a decision based completely on self-interest, and hope it comes back around bites them in the arse.
The worst part is that they decided to change everything, and then for some strange reason (second thoughts?) they decided to make most of the changes VERY blasé, like creating a continent of people VERY MUCH like the rest of Faerûn, instead of taking the plunge and creating something unique and intriguing. The whole FRCG reads like a 3rd-party book of crappy plothooks produced in some guy's basement.
If they wanted to take the Realms in a bold new direction, I might have been able to get behind that, but instead we got this half-hearted effort that seems more like a bad compromise between stagnation and whole-sale change.
You want to knock down an old neighborhood landmark, you had better put up something incredibly cool in its place. All they did was leave a steaming pile of... rubble.
I see so Troy Denning is to blame.
-If you don't like Ao, sure. Me, I like the big lug, for the most part.
I just read the original Cult of the Dragon, and the free pdf AGHotR. Was there a published short in the print AGHotR, because otherwise I fail to see how she was being subtle.
-Indeed there are. Plenty of stories are missing from the .PDF that were written into the physical book, by Ed Greenwood, Brian, George K, and a bunch of other authors/designers. Vignettes, I think they are called, I don't know.
In essence I don't understand the problem with BC's answer.
I showed what's wrong with it quite clearly: it's brief and ambiguous, and none of the interpretations we've thought of make sense in relation to the sources and an accurate understanding of the Realms; which doesn't involve, for instance, distorting and inflating a very minor aspect of the goddess, apparently due to personal dislike of Ed Greenwood's fiction.
As far as Ed's comments I would love to read it if you could direct me to it.
The basic nature and purpose of the Chosen is set out in the sources that introduced the concept in print in 1995, the Shadow of the Avatar trilogy and The Seven Sisters. It's not some obscure or recent revelation.
I showed what's wrong with it quite clearly: it's brief and ambiguous, and none of the interpretations we've thought of make sense in relation to the sources and an accurate understanding of the Realms; which doesn't involve, for instance, distorting and inflating a very minor aspect of the goddess, apparently due to personal dislike of Ed Greenwood's fiction.
It certainly was not minor to myself, or others I have spoken to. As far as making accusations of distortion and inflation due to personal dislikes, have I said anything to warrant having my character attacked by you? I thought we were discussing a subject, perhaps you should examine your own motivations.
The basic nature and purpose of the Chosen is set out in the sources that introduced the concept in print in 1995, the Shadow of the Avatar trilogy and The Seven Sisters. It's not some obscure or recent revelation.
I don't have access to the the Shadow of the Avatar trilogy nor do I have much motivation to read it, however 'The Seven Sisters' offers several theories, and suggests as most older FR stuff did that the theories presented are just the tip of the iceberg. If you choose to read something and get something out of it, don't expect everyone to agree with you or to only see things one way. The pedantic tone of your post was not appreciated.
As far as making accusations of distortion and inflation due to personal dislikes, have I said anything to warrant having my character attacked by you?
I thought, since you mentioned it, the two things might be connected. Obviously I don't know whether they are or not, and I wouldn't presume to claim so. It wouldn't be any terrible thing for one's perceptions to be affected by likes and dislikes, anyway.
. . . 'The Seven Sisters' offers several theories, and suggests as most older FR stuff did that the theories presented are just the tip of the iceberg.
They are.
If you choose to read something and get something out of it, don't expect everyone to agree with you or to only see things one way.
The matter I'm commenting on is one of Realmslore, not personal interpretation or opinion. Mystra does not prevent magic except to protect magic itself, and people in Faerûn know it. Manshoon himself worships her, which makes no sense in the 'folk Realms' of internet misrepresentation, but does in Faerûn. Indeed, her ethos is overwhelmingly to spread Art and encourage magical experimentation. That doesn't become 'leashing it' except through some bias, misreading, or spin.
Truly, it has become a World of darkness...
It's what they wanted, after all. Post-apocalyptic, with aberrations aplenty and civilization reduced to the "points of light" model. Perfect world for Shar ascendant, really. Not a huge surprise with Cordell at the lead for the FRCG.
The Scarred Lands is just one type of Campaign setting along those lines, and Midnight is another - BOTH excellent.
I would gladly play in either... but I don't want that crap in my FR. Just like I like Eberron, and would love to play in a game, but don't want most of that in FR either.
Just because I like Sci-Fi and Fantasy, I wouldn't mix the two - thats why I didn't care for Spelljammer over-much.
Everything has its place, and in that place, and in moderation, everything can be good.
FR already had a well-estabished flavor, and applying anything on top of it is like pouring gravy on top of a Peanutbutter & Jelly sandwich.
I don't care HOW delicious said gravy is... thats just gross.
FR already had a well-estabished flavor, and applying anything on top of it is like pouring gravy on top of a Peanutbutter & Jelly sandwich.
I don't care HOW delicious said gravy is... thats just gross.
Depends on the kind of gravy. A nice Guatemalan mole sauce could be quite effective when drizzled on top of a PB&J.
Not sure I'd include mole in the term gravy, but that's just me...
Just trying to be helpful, 'cause that's how I roll. ;)
I like that, but NOT in FR.
The Scarred Lands is just one type of Campaign setting along those lines, and Midnight is another - BOTH excellent.
I would gladly play in either... but I don't want that crap in my FR. Just like Imlike Eberron, and would lovbe to play in a game, but don't want most of that in FR either.
Just because I like Sci-Fi and Fantasy, I wouldn't mix the two - thats why I didn't care for Spelljammer over-much.
Everything has its place, and in that place, and in moderation, everything can be good.
FR already had a well-estabished flavor, and applying anything on top of it is like pouring gravy on top of a Peanutbutter & Jelly sandwich.
I don't care HOW delicious said gravy is... thats just gross.
Actually it really had no specific flavor excpet for being a place that had a hodge podge of themes. So it is like a stew where anything was thrown in. Much of that was done during 2E. Ask Ed about it. ;)
So, if both the evil gods of the Realms and the WotC designers wanted Mystra dead, can we assume some sort of correlation there?
Or: "GAHH! YOU'VE CENTURIES OF SUCH DROSS! WHAT CARE I FOR MORTALS NOW DUST AND REALMS LONG FALLEN?", as Nergal says of Elminster's memories in Elminster in Hell.
Let's remember once more what the Weave, at base, is:
It was my way of viewing and understanding “the interconnectedness of all things” in my world, the ways in which magic and all natural forces (kinetic energy, the weather cycle, tides, sunlight, etc.) were linked and interacted together. The name “Weave” was introduced (I believe) by Julia Martin of TSR and now Wizards, as the way folk of Faerun described these interwoven forces. Neither the concept nor the name are truly original; they have been part of real-world mythologies, world-philosophies, and religions for thousands of years.
Not just a magic system. The Realms is interconnected (holographic in the sense used by David Bohm) through these natural links and through memory, meaning, and personal (love), symbolic, and social relationships.
The Realms is a vast, very detailed world with a long and still-vigorously-unfolding history, and many, many characters. The Realms IS those characters, and if a DM doesn't present it as a vast, everchanging webwork of intrigues and clashing interests, where caravans move from A to B for good reasons, and rulers (unless mad) don't operate in a vacuum of whims but grapple with issues (the competing interests of their subjects, not just attacks from rival realms) small and large every day, the DM isn't really showing players the Realms.
Any style of gaming can be accommodated by the Realms, even the simplest dungeon-crawls or "exploring your own small village and the haunted keep on the hill," so those who play in it need not memorize huge reams of facts or have its entire bewildering complexity dumped on their heads at any time - - but unlike all of the other available published settings, the Realms has a LOT of detail available for the DM who wants to know WHY two noble families have been feuding for centuries, or who around this crowded royal council table has family or business ties or personal loves and hatreds with who else around the table, or what will happen diplomatically, as one consequence leads to another, if the PCs murder this envoy and frame a local bailiff for the killing (or the bailiff frames the PCs). In the Realms, people live 'real lives.' They need food (and usually money), they need water, they have to defecate somewhere, they usually have to obey local laws or customs (or flee to live "outlaw"), and almost all of that has been covered somewhere, in Realms fiction or DRAGON articles or Realms gaming products.
The trade routes (and winds, currents, shortages, and exports that affect them) are outlined, and a lot of Faerûnian laws and customs, slang, and even fashions have been written about: if you love detailed lore, or have a need to plunder that detail for your own gaming world or for any other purpose, it's there. This much detail isn't what all gamers want or like, but unlike most other settings, the Realms offers you a choice, because the information is there; we've done the work.
Yet some people have felt that, in contrast, the Realms is hard to use casually -- whatever their numbers, reasons, rightness or wrongness for themselves or others. And it's obvious why this interconnected grandeur is needless for a two-sourcebook setting intended as a secondary play aid for new D&D players and DMs, perhaps to be annually replaced. To some ways of thinking, these interconnected ties are bother and responsibility that you don't need in a game; vincula are also chains. That is a matter of disposition, opinion, purpose, and legitimate preference. So, although certainly other approaches might have been taken, within their larger business plan it's hard to blame Wizards from a purely commercial point of view for downplaying/ignoring/throwing out (or whatever other characterization) these most central of Ed's principles and ideas.
But . . . you know the rest.
And honestly, if he doesn't like Ed's writing, why would he even bother with his stuff on Candlekeep? Hells, I do like his writing and don't bother with those... ;)
He doesn't have to bother with it, but Ed's answers are still there, and canon (whether one likes it or not), so it's fair game for me to discuss them here.
Chosen talk to their god, instead of being blasted by waves of ecstatic visions, or having guiding dreams that need to be interpreted. It does boil down to the novels, and the lack of mystery.
Well, one could argue that it's a good thing when gods dispense with the apparent divine need to be cryptic.
AO is without a doubt the dumbest contrivance Ed ever came up with at the behest of TSR.
AO was not Ed's creation.
You are free to think what you wish. I would love some examples of Mystra being subtle though, or some guidance of where I could read a story of Mystra or her Chosen being subtle, clearly I have missed them.
If you read lots of Mystra/Chosen stories, then I'm not sure how I could convince you of my point--you don't think they're subtle and that's that.
One example that comes to mind, though, is Elminster--Ed consistently shows him as a behind-the-scenes manipulater of events on behalf of Mystra.
Actually it really had no specific flavor excpet for being a place that had a hodge podge of themes. So it is like a stew where anything was thrown in.
-Maybe people will listen to you. When I say this, people don't listen to me.
FR's flavor was the lack of flavor, and it was it's greatest asset. If I wanted to run a Ravenloft-style campaign, I can go Westgate by gaslight, or if I wanted Spelljamming, I have an entire Realms sourcebook to use for that (Realmspace). In fact, I could run any type of campaign I want - even Eberron or Darksun (I'd plunk that down in the High desert of Zakhara).
That means if I wanted a Cthulhuesque campaign revolving around Delkyr(Eberron)-like themes and Aboleths and Illithids galore, then it was MY choice to do so, and I have enough established canon-lore to build off of to create such a campaign.
There is a difference between me highlighting existing elements of a setting to run the kind of game I want, and someone else ramming them down my throat.
Whereas before we could just ignore the smattering of Aberrational references, we no longer can, because they've BECOME the theme, and are not just a small part of the glorious whole anymore.
FR has always been about choices, and it was THE perfect setting for any type of game someone could want to run - I've never seen two FR campaigns run the same way. Thats why I find the both the LFR and the 'forced thematics' distasteful.
Whereas before I felt I could easily make the Realms mine, now I feel I must do a lot more work to do so. The whole thing looks too 'scripted' to me now.
I personally feel they accomplished the exact OPPOSITE of what they set out to do. It WAS POL - now it's not. I use to be able to set an adventure down anywhere for players to find lost temples and cities. Now, instread of tripping over ruins every ten feet, they are tripping over Empires every ten feet.
The setting has become way too busy to be of any use to me.
"The Realms was a setting designed to allow a thousand stories to simultaneously be told...There was room for nearly any kind of tale in the Realms..."
If I'm not mistaken anyway...
FR's flavor was the lack of flavor, and it was its's greatest asset.
I strongly disagree. If I didn't love the very specific flavour of the Realms, I'd have no interest in it. It's that flavour -- feel, themes, sensibility -- that allows the multiplicity of stories without just making a mess, a world rather than a pile of information and events.
Realms-2008 takes the same information and events, throws out a lot of it, adds a bit more, and recontextualizes it under a new set of unifying principles and rhythms.
You can read the Realms books and say "ahhh... there's the exact flavor I want."
I could read the same books and think the same thing... and we'd run completely different campaigns.
The Realms had something every product under the sun strives for - ULTIMATE versatility. It could easily be all things to all people.
The flavor you're getting out of printed material is NOT the same flavor everyone else is, and that goes for everybody, and that was the beauty of it.
And Stigger, I don't know if I'd go that far - you could still do whatever you want with it.
Here's the difference, the way I see it.
Suppose someone in the fanbase posted all kinds of Aberrational material for FR here at the boards (stuff that would be very much like the way BC went, but this is a 'what -if' pertaining to him NOT going that route).
I, and others, would probably say "thats pretty cool, the way you worked all that out there.. but it's not really for me". We wouldn't put it down, or lambast it, because we could just ignore it. By the same token, others here might say "Wow! Thats terrific.. I am SO going to use that".
See? Everyone is happy. The material can be used, or can be ignored, without changing canon.
When a DESIGNER says those things, it carries much more weight, and now those of us they don't care for it feel like our world just got 'polluted'. I may run a very different Realms campaign then most folks, but in the back of my mind I know all the canon stuff still happens - I just put different spins on certain things. That means even though I would never use any of that Aboleth lore, it still exists somewhere in my world.
Now, by the same token, people who like it can use our argument against us, and say you were always able to just ignore whatever you didn't like for your games, so ignore it.
And I would just come back with "of course it's true... which is why the Realms didn't need to be changed in the first place". You can't have it both ways - if canon lore can be ignored, what was the point of the hundred year timeshift?
While I may agree - in part - with folks who say that the canon was 'intimidating' to newcomers, and for that very reason I understand the focus (or lack there-of) of 4e material, I can't understand why someone would force a bunch of lore on the setting that only appeals to a very, VERY specific sub-genre of fans.
And the worst part is, Aberrations are a BIG part of Eberron. Why the hell did FR have to go that route?
A company has TWO flagship settings, and they are making them more alike? Thats like a car company producing two different model cars that have the same features, but different body-styles. Sure, it's done, but it's completely pointless to produce TWO differnt products that appeal to the SAME group of people.
Right.
You can read the Realms books and say "ahhh... there's the exact flavor I want."
I could read the same books and think the same thing... and we'd run completely different campaigns.
To me, that just means the Realms is cosmopolitan, not flavorless.
And of course, everyone will pick out different things of any setting that they like and prefer (or focus on) them.
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric, who love the 4E Manual of the Planes!) :D
More like "Its ANY flavor you want it to be".
perhaps it's the chameleon of settings.
And for some reason, this thread has me wanting to do one of my famous 'composite' pics... of a character called Illiminster.
More like "Its ANY flavor you want it to be".
In terms of individual people's uses of the Realms, sure. In terms of writing for the published setting, coming at it with that idea is abjectly failing to write for a shared world with its own dynamics and nature, and the authors who've done that (through ignorance or arrogance) have failed to contribute meaningfully to Realmslore.
Do you really not see what the core flavour of the underlying Realms is like?
-As it goes, I understand and agree with Markus completely. The specifics of the setting, I obviously like, but the underlying theme and inspirational source of all of it stems from traditional European-flavored fantasy.
-Maybe people will listen to you. When I say this, people don't listen to me.
To me it is pretty obvious it is a mismash of ideas, and real world regions that people are familiar with so the setting can try to appeal to a muc broader audience than EB or GH.
In fact, I'm re-reading a bunch of my old GH stuff ATM, and I'd say that Gygax did a bang-up job of making a world with a little bit of everything for everyone, without having so many blatant RW analogies.
The closest would be the Northern Barabarians (typical Norse/Conan fare), but their history and what-not sets them apart (unlike the Rauthym/Northman, who are so generic and boring they could put an insomniac to sleep).
You know, as long as I'm mentioning the fact that I'm waxing nostalgic about GH and re-reading my old stuff, I can't help but mention I didn't get past page two last night before running into SHAR!
Swear to god... I just can't seem to get away from that name, even in a 20 year old Greyhawk product.
:P 18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric) :P :P :P :P ;)
-She is everywhere.
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric) :P :P :P :P ;)
On Earth, Shar makes cookies.
Actually, 'Shar' is word in the Suel language (of GH), and it means 'Purity'. The Scarlet Brotherhood named their first Kingdom that after the great migration (that happened as a result of the rain of colorless fire).
I was going to create a tie-in between the Suel and Imaskar in some lore I'm doing for the east (Tan Chin/Abuchar Devyam really needs to be a Suel Lich). The two are very complimentary - Incredibly powerful Mage Empires that take, and breeds, slaves.
I really wanted a racial connection (I did that in my FR), but it really doesn't work. Suel are blonde and blue-eyed to the point of Albinism, and the Imaskari were a Mujhari (Zakharan) people, making them look more Olive-skinned and semitic.
I'll just have to fall back on my Stargate/Imaskar stuff and say it was an early colony of the Imaskari. The founding of the Suel Empire goes back about 5000 years, so that places it during the Middle-Kingdoms period of Imaskar, and works nicely.
The reason why I went off on this tangent is because I want Shar to be a god of the Suel people, who was probably brought over by the Imaskari early on. Her name meaning 'purity' in Suel works nicely - the Scarlet Brotherhood believe in 'purifying' the world of other ethnicities, and who better to represent purification through obliteration? :D
In times of loss, depression or anger, dont give into Shar's delicious AND comforting cookies...
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric) :P
LOL - that must have happened when she became a god in the Keebler Pantheon. :D
Actually, 'Shar' is word in the Suel language (of GH), and it means 'Purity'. The Scarlet Brotherhood named their first Kingdom that after the great migration (that happened as a result of the rain of colorless fire).
I was going to create a tie-in between the Suel and Imaskar in some lore I'm doing for the east (Tan Chin/Abuchar Devyam really needs to be a Suel Lich). The two are very complimentary - Incredibly powerful Mage Empires that take, and breeds, slaves.
I really wanted a racial connection (I did that in my FR), but it really doesn't work. Suel are blonde and blue-eyed to the point of Albinism, and the Imaskari were a Mujhari (Zakharan) people, making them look more Olive-skinned and semitic.
I'll just have to fall back on my Stargate/Imaskar stuff and say it was an early colony of the Imaskari. The founding of the Suel Empire goes back about 5000 years, so that places it during the Middle-Kingdoms period of Imaskar, and works nicely.
The reason why I went off on this tangent is because I want Shar to be a god of the Suel people, who was probably brought over by the Imaskari early on. Her name meaning 'purity' in Suel works nicely - the Scarlet Brotherhood believe in 'purifying' the world of other ethnicities, and who better to represent purification through obliteration? :D
AGHotR says the Imaskari were a Durpari offshoot. Is that the same as Mujhari? Also, they weren't terribly religious to say the least, so if you want them carrying Shar to another world, it'd have to be a heretic splinter-group, which actually works quite well.
I also think that Imaskar weren't always anti-deity. There is quite a bit in Desert of Desolation (The Raurin) which leads one to believe that Imaskari were not only pious at some point, but they paid lip-service to ALL the gods - even ones that aren't from Realmspace. I think they had some sort of problem with a god or gods during the middle-period, and thats when they turned from them. Just speculation, but there are some ancient canon temples in the Raurin. It could just be as simple as that the artificers finally convinced themselves - and the rest of their people - that THEY were just as powerful of the gods. It may have even been a play on their part to have themselves raised to divine stature through worship.
The Dupari and the Imaskari were both offshoots of the Muhjari - that was an ethinic group that migrated up from Zakhara. The people of Semphar are also considered Muhjein (that is taken from The Horde material, along with a little from Desert of Desolation.
Technically, the Imaskari wer NOT Durpari, but they were of the same racial stock. Since most folks have no idea who the Mujhari are, the GHotR uses Durpari, which is close enough (just different tribes of the same Semite-like group).
I also think that Imaskar weren't always anti-deity. There is quite a bit in Desert of Desolation (The Raurin) which leads one to believe that Imaskari were not only pious at some point, but they paid lip-service to ALL the gods - even ones that aren't from Realmspace. I think they had some sort of problem with a god or gods during the middle-period, and thats when they turned from them. Just speculation, but there are some ancient canon temples in the Raurin. It could just be as simple as that the artificers finally convinced themselves - and the rest of their people - that THEY were just as powerful of the gods. It may have even been a play on their part to have themselves raisd to divine stature through worship.
I don't think so. Most of those stray gods found in the Raurin have temples in Medinat Muskawoon (the only known temples for them). That city lasted a few centuries of prosperity, during which it saw Untherite travellers and others. There are also a fair number of extra Egyptian/Mulhorandi gods laying around. It fell with Amun-Re's curse around a 1000 years ago.
So Medinat Muskawoon has to date to well after the fall of Imaskar and the rise of Unther and Mulhorand, as one of the many city-states that sprung and died in the centuries and millennia after it.
Personally, I think a number of interloper gods moved in to fill the divine power vacuum after the Imaskari fell.
I'm seeing it more as old texts (scriptures?) were found dating from the early Imaskari Empire, cataloguing the various divine beings in the universe (after all, they were extra-planer explorers). These 'Holy Books' (really just historic cultural texts on various spheres) could have been uncovered in Imaskari ruins, or even found buried in vaults belonging to the survivor-states, and the survivors would have desperately wanted to appease these beings. Some may have tried to worship the gods of their enemies (the Pharaonic, Babylonian, and Sumerian Pantheons), or tried to find other gods to protect them from those enemy-deities.
The knowledge of these gods HAD TO have come from a time before the Godwall existed.
Unless the Godwall specifically blocked only the Mulan Gods, but I can't find any evidence to support that (Although it is entirely possible).
This might explain why we see Anu worshipped by Durpari and Assuran (Hoar) and Tiamat joining the Faerunian pantheon - perhaps abandoning (or being exiled from) the Mulan altogether let them bypass the Godwall.
Anyway, we're off-topic. :p
-It is a vanilla, a relative common flavor, that can have all sorts of toppings added to it.
Ah, but remember, darling, that vanilla flavor comes from a beautiful Mexican orchid.
Or dislike for that matter... ;)
Yeah, I've noticed that people will focus on things they dislike as well...
Ah, but remember, darling, that vanilla flavor comes from a beautiful Mexican orchid.
-Beautiful, just like you.
-That vanilla is a common flavor doesn't make it any less good. It's my favorite ice cream flavor.
-Beautiful, just like you.
:embarrass
-That vanilla is a common flavor doesn't make it any less good. It's my favorite ice cream flavor.
Heehee, I know.
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric) :P
Now that's just the jealousy talking Delta... and maybe the accompanying gross-out factor... :D
-No jealousy here. :P The gross-out factor yes. :D
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric) :D
:evillaugh
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric) :P
Now that's just the jealousy talking Delta... and maybe the accompanying gross-out factor... :D
NO.
He's right.. this is not Myspace, these are the realms boards, and not anyone's 'personal playground'.
Of course there's jealousy, you're upset since your Cyricness isn't enough to disgust and nauseate even nearly as well as those two's Sune-inspired ickyness. :P
:evillaugh
I miss mon petit doudou... *sigh*
More Sune! Less Shar! :D
I prefer Sharess... she's more like a little of both, with some of Loviatar's 'sweet mercys' thrown in to keep it interesting. :D
-Haven't heard/seen much from him.
Am I the only one who noticed theis quiet transfer of power in past year?
Not sure of the reasons behind the change - I could fill a book with conjecture - but the reality is it could be anything from "he did such a great job we gave him the SW brand to fix" to "he screwed up FR so bad we re-assigned him", to something as simple as "5e FR was a done deal, and he's been moved to another IP now that his managment skills are no longer needed in that arena".
Seriously, I never brought up the change in the head honcho because you really can't read anything into it (or rather, everything into it). Considering how hard it is to figure out a lot of WotC's reasoning in the past year, this is really just a minor thing.
Either way, right after his "blame me" proclamation, he absconded. Have no idea if it's what he wanted, or someone else did, so I can't point any fingers... this time.
Anyway, BC seems to be our new 'target of choice'. Sure wish we could swap him for Wyatt - which I think would be a boon for both brands - but it is what it is.
If you notice, since the "blame me because I was in charge" speach, he is NO LONGER in charge of the FR brand - Bruce Cordell is.
-Do you have a citation for this? His name is still in both the FRCG and the FRPG as 'D&D Story Design and Development Manager'. He's the "overdeity", so to speak, as he was in the past.
Maybe it was in one or two of those video-interviews...
This is something that ocurred after those two books were finalized, so CP's name would still appear there. I got the feeling it was 'fallout' from that, but like I said, I could be way off there - I'm just guessing in the dark on this one.
For some reason an interview is ringing a bell... maybe I'll try to find that Ed Greenwood one...
Edit: Still not finding a reference... damn... I really detest looking through some of these interviews...
Edit 2: Hmmmm... Maybe its because BC got top-billing in the FRCG? Note that Cris's title says "D&D", NOT "FR", which are two completely different animals. Still looking... I know someone mentioned it somewhere...
Edit 3: Okay, reading through this article/interview. and I came across this by Phil Athans -
PA: By the end of June, Bruce Cordell, Richard Baker, and I were assembled as the FORGOTTEN REALMS revision team. That summer we participated in a series of long meetings in which we hammered out the FORGOTTEN REALMS 4th edition “Revision Guide,” a document that would later morph, with the help of a lot more people, into the 4th Edition FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Guide.
Note there is no mention of Chris Perkins - he might of 'signed off' on the final product, but it appears he had very little input in the end-result.
I'm starting to think I drew my own conclusions from all of this...
Regardless, weather he is indeed still in charge or not, it's fairly obvious who really designed the new Realms. The worst Mr. Perkins can be accused of is "being asleep at the wheel".
Very good point, Stigger.
Note there is no mention of Chris Perkins - he might of 'signed off' on the final product, but it appears he had very little input in the end-result.
-He's the "overdeity of design". And Star Wars Saga Edition.
Not sure if this will help your search: Check 4/5 of the way down for Chris Perkins blog entry on the history of the planning for the 4E Realms. It's in the 10-10-07, 9:18 PM entry, where he mentions he's the "D&D story manager."
True... does it really matter who is in charge of the FR IP currently? There are no more game-products forthcoming, and the novels are handled by the books dept., so that particular job isn't in charge of anything, ATM.
Very good point, Stigger.
-So, the lights are on and nobody is home? :P
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric) ;)
It would appear that Bruce Cordell is calling all of the shots where FR is concerned, and CP is just signing off on everything.
Considering he signed off on the 4e map, that explains much. I'm just wondering if he is even bothering to look at half the crap thats coming across his desk.
Anyway, if I'm comletely wrong here and there was no changing of the gaurd behind the scenes, I've already punished myself by re-watching every Youtube interview concerning 4e out there. I've never seen so much mutual back-slapping in my life.
The Ed Greenwood ones weren't so bad (except when he talks about how much fun 4e is), but the rest just made my skin crawl.
I feel like I need to take a bath... and it's not even New Year's yet.
WotC Design Teams don't operate in a vacuum and they don't put people in charge, then expect them to be "hands off."
Markus I've read a lot of your assumptions but, with respect, I really wish you would just give it a rest.
Wish Granted.
My New Year's resolution is to not bother with any more online forums.
-Markus there is no need to play the martyr. :P
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric) ;)
Maybe a better resolution should be we should all post more fun positive stuff on these boards in 09. If you cannot do this then take the angst to some other forum I guess.;) This goes for the people I agree and disagree with at times. There is more bad drama on these boards (sometimes) than a bad Spelling show from the 90s (take yer pick;) ). It gets silly when either "side" gets so dramatic about their likes and dislikes. It is a game let's have some fun with it in 09.
And yes, that is a good resolution Rauric... unfortunately, I hate new years resolutions just on principle. Just for that, all my angst shall be dumped squarely on dwarven heads from now on. :P
:D
Wish Granted.
My New Year's resolution is to not bother with any more online forums.
Oh Markus, stop tormenting Misc with hope. Besides, (most of) the rest of us would miss you.
Silly Delta, Mr. Perkins is the design manager, Rodney is just the 'face' of things.... kinda like Rich Baker and BRJ over here. :P ;)
And yes, that is a good resolution Rauric... unfortunately, I hate new years resolutions just on principle. Just for that, all my angst shall be dumped squarely on dwarven heads from now on. :P
:D
That is fine since we are tough and used to adversity. We live in the earth after all! ;) Dwarves know how to handle angsty, goths, emo, kids and other servants of Shar. :D
I give it a month before that one's broken... you know you love us all too much to depart for good MT... and then there's the whole Paizo thing... and Candlekeep... and gods knows what else... ;) :D
Ask the guys over at CoolMiniornot about that. I was one of the biggest posters/forum leaders over there, running international contests and what-not.
Then one day I just went 'poof', and haven't been back since. I've done that on others before, as well, but that was the one directly proceeding this one.
However, this time I do not want to replace my forum with a new one - I want to stop wasting all my time posting on them all-together.
Life is too short to waste half of it arguiing about 'pretend worlds'.
Life is too short to waste half of it arguiing about 'pretend worlds'.
Quoted for truth.
I come here for ideas and info. I will try to offer more of both more often.
Just because we have different tastes then they doesn't make them bad people.
In fact, I can only think of one author and one designer that rub me the wrong way personally, but that is my own feelings and has no place on a forum like this.
Good interview. What is he like in person?
Very tentacley, I imagine. :coolcthul
Time to come back to life.
Nightseer wants to read this thread.