Taking circle magic as an example, it is possible for a group of spellcasters to pool their powers to create an effect similar to prespellplague magic (i.e. the fireball example). After reading this, my personal belief is that the spellplague was similar to that of the mage wars of Mercedes Lackey. If you have not read these books, the war culminated in 2 opposing mages dying and upon their deaths their spells, towers, and magic items all detonated, forming great waves of destruction that served to spread magic out evenly across the planet. It also had the same side effects of the spellplague in that creatures and people were mutated and the landscape altered.
In the guide, Mystra was described as holding magic in her weave (not unlike a pitcher of water). Magic functioned by allowing wizards to tap into that resevoir of magic and shape it to their needs. More powerfull effects could be achieved because there was so much power accumulated. I think the spellplague spread the magic evenly out and without a guardian to maintain the weave (i.e dam or pitcher) it disintegrated upon being emptied. Now, with enough time and a new weave construct, the magic might recollect, allowing spells to regain their prior power. This is also why I think 4E rituals take so long to cast. It takes that long to collect the power needed to cast the ritual. So, recreating a weave might require something like an accumulator that the elves had on evermeet (just on a grander scale). It also might be accomplished on a larger scale using a mythal-type ritual which ties the casters into a construct in which they can store their power. The spellpool analogy from 3.5 fits as another more concrete example. If enough casters took part in the ritual, the weave could exponentially grow. Also, as priests/priestesses are ordained and given the ability to tap power and cast spells; new apprentices could be "keyed" into the weave by a ritual thereby giving them access to an arcane power source and also allowing them to feed the weave in return.
Overall, I think this process could work for both the shadow and normal weaves.
Thoughts?
Specifically someone like Selune probably, since she helped create the original Weave.
I'd also suggest that they build a means of "channeling" and "Refining" Positive Material Plane energy.
Does the Positive Material Plane still exist?
I'd say get the Heart of Karsus.
-Karsus' heart is hard to obtain. Only a select handful have been able to get it.
Does the Positive Material Plane still exist?
-I'm not sure. MT told me- but we all know his penchant for elaboration and exaggeration, so I'm not sure if this is fact or not- that the Plane of Shadows and Negative Energy Plane were retconned into the Shadowfell, and that the Plane of Faerie and the Positive Energy Plane were retconned into the Feywild.
It gave a handy source for where all the magic in the universe came from.
-Karsus' heart is hard to obtain. Only a select handful have been able to get it.
-I'm not sure. MT told me- but we all know his penchant for elaboration and exaggeration, so I'm not sure if this is fact or not- that the Plane of Shadows and Negative Energy Plane were retconned into the Shadowfell, and that the Plane of Faerie and the Positive Energy Plane were retconned into the Feywild.
No, this is pretty much correct, throw in the border ethereal and you got it.
Bel
:D
I'm game.
But in my campaign souls are made from a mixture of positive planestuff and astral voidstuff but are sparked on the astral. So the astral plane is the most common plane "tapped" for arcane energies. The stuff between stars and planets (sp? phlogiston) was also a good conduit for arcane energies and lots of the Multiverses magic travelled between the stars. I imagined Mystra was there to regulate the magic emissions from the multiverse and the astral and phlogiston were the most common border planes for the weaveblanket around Toril.
So, like in Final Fantasy Six, we have to grind up faeries for our magic?
:D
I'm game.
-Espers. Espers!
-Grind up a Fairy, and you'll just get a mess you'll need to clean up.
Labeling the Far Realm evil is a sign of fearing that which you do not understand. Arcane magic cant be explained by just Fey-energy.
It's the Cthulhu realm. It may not be Evil when the Forces of Chaos show up, mutate you into a horrible tentacled monster, and then eat your planet but it's decidedly unpleasant.
Besides, it's most relevant to this supplement.
Personally, I don't see what the problem is.
Why is the Fey any less of a source of magic? Elves are innately magical. That's been canon for years.
:D
As Magic is more than Fey-energy alone in older editions, I hesitate to assign a single planar location to house the orginal powersource of magic.
-It's the best you've got, now. Does anything else really fit? The Shadowfell, that's supposed to be evil, and the Far Realm, that supposed to be crazy. The Astral/Ethereal Sea (I forget which one it is), there really isn't anything ambivalently magic-granting about it. The Plane of Faerie, it is.
Who knows with so many choices out there!
Thoughts?
I think having non-deific spell casters (as in spell caster who aren't in and of themselves deities) of any sort being able to make a new Weave pretty much cheapens the concept of a Weave to begin with. I mean honestly, the original Weave was created by a catastrophic event, wherein a part of Shar was torn away by a part of Selune and created an entirely new entity (Mystryl).
The origin of the Shadow Weave has been very inconsistently told across many products, and really was never as powerful or as useful as the Weave itself (you know, no light spells, weak at evocation, was liable to drive a caster mad, etc)... And, if we believe the more recent "version" (that Shar created it wholecloth), it was also made by a deity.
In short, I think it's a pretty bad idea, Karazhan. Sorry.
why does there have to be one source for magic?
-In the Forgotten Realms, there is only one source of magic- 'Raw Magic'. It's dangerous, though, so the Weave acted as a go-between, to gather the energy of Raw Magic, and to turn it into a form that was safe for mortals to use. With the Weave gone, and people still using magic, we need an explanation as to how this is possible, but that's a whole new issue.
And, if we believe the more recent "version" (that Shar created it wholecloth), it was also made by a deity.
-The most recent retcon of the most recent retcon was that the Shadow Weave was a part of the Weave that Mystra had no control of, and that Shar "stole" it from her, and turned it into her own Shadow Weave.
If I was going to explain it in 4e terms I'd probably say that elemental magics are drawn from the elemental chaos, shadowfell could be the source for shadow and necrotic magics, and the astral sea is probably where radiant energy effects come from.
Sounds good.
Divine magic from deities and nature magic from the feywild. Fits perfectly. Discussion finished :P
The most recent retcon of the most recent retcon
:D So let's wait for the next to occur.
I think my next project will be looking into elven spellmantles and their ability to serve as a buffer between raw magic and the caster. I always saw them as minimythals.
@Storm,
Do not be sorry you think it's a bad idea! :D All feedback is good.
:D So let's wait for the next to occur.
-Well, it's gone now, so...
I think those are excellent ideas. I just wanted to add that the Feywild is also described as a place of raw magic.
@Splarg,
I think those are excellent ideas. I just wanted to add that the Feywild is also described as a place of raw magic.
Yeah it could easily fit in as a source for nature magics as well as enchantments and illusions, the feywild as a very magical place. I like the thought of magic having more than one source
Actually one of my favourite ideas for magic was from the old marvel superheroes game. It had personal, univeral, and dimensional sources for magic.
If I remember correctly; personal was for magics that drew upon your own inner strength and tended to include psychic effects. Universal was possibly the main power source for spells and accounted for most energy spells, Dimensional magics were those which called upon a dimensional being (Vishanti, Cytorrak, the Hoary Hosts of Hoggoth) and tended to be some of the more powerful effects. It was a good way for explaining the power sources although with 4e I like having the drawing of magic from the various planes of existence.
-Yeah, I'm going to have to agree with Therise, and cast my 'Nay' vote concerning the Sharn. Going from preserving magical treasures and secrets to wanting to trash everything is a little too drastic, for my appreciation. At least, as it stands now, anyway. Perhaps, if we are told a little bit more as to why they are doing what they are doing, as opposed to just "the Spellplague made them go crazy".
-Like, for instance, if we find out that in Plaguelands areas, the Weave is slowly knitting itself back together, and only once the entire planet is engulfed in Plaguelands can the Weave return, thus making the actions of the Sharn a lot more consistent.
-The most recent retcon of the most recent retcon was that the Shadow Weave was a part of the Weave that Mystra had no control of, and that Shar "stole" it from her, and turned it into her own Shadow Weave.
I see... All this retconning is making me dizzy...
Anyway, it doesn't change my point.
Weave making should be for deities only. ;)Heya,
I see... All this retconning is making me dizzy...
Anyway, it doesn't change my point.
Agreed. And why would they want to, or even allow mortals to try. I am sure they are grateful to no longer have another deity with the power to cut them off from magic, and would be disinclined to put another in that place.
Very interesting theory!
I find it interesting that the guide states that users of a spellscar are treated by 4E mythals as being evil for the remainder of the day. Perhaps this is another sign that the plaguelands and spellscars represent old weave magic coming into conflict with the new system of magic.
-In the Forgotten Realms, there is only one source of magic- 'Raw Magic'. It's dangerous, though, so the Weave acted as a go-between, to gather the energy of Raw Magic, and to turn it into a form that was safe for mortals to use. With the Weave gone, and people still using magic, we need an explanation as to how this is possible, but that's a whole new issue. [...]
Couldn't this serve as the explanation for why the "new magic" is much less powerful than the "old magic"? All casters had to change their techniques for accessing raw magic, and those who tried to channel the same amount of energy were just ripped apart by it. The casters we see in the current FR are those, that were right in their mind and scaled down the power they use for their spells.
Show
Just compare it to the Java programming language. Raw magic is Assembly, the Weave is the Java VM, and spellcasting is programming with Java.
Programming in Java allows you to do some cool stuff, easily make flashy programs that will run on many computers, but it's limited to what the VM allows (so no direct byte access to some device registers, or stuff like that). On the other hand, Assembly is not restricted in any way, and ultimately you can do anything in Assembly what you can do in Java. But it's much more complicated and dangerous, and a single screw up can send your program into a BSoD.
Now, the Java VM just died. The programmers are looking for another way to make their programs and just found Assembly. Those who try to make the same complicated, flashy applications they made with Java will die out, because they won't get anything done in time in Assembly. However, those who make more simple programs can use Assembly to make small, very fast, and resource-effective programs.
Programming in Java allows you to do some cool stuff, easily make flashy programs that will run on many computers, but it's limited to what the VM allows (so no direct byte access to some device registers, or stuff like that). On the other hand, Assembly is not restricted in any way, and ultimately you can do anything in Assembly what you can do in Java. But it's much more complicated and dangerous, and a single screw up can send your program into a BSoD.
Now, the Java VM just died. The programmers are looking for another way to make their programs and just found Assembly. Those who try to make the same complicated, flashy applications they made with Java will die out, because they won't get anything done in time in Assembly. However, those who make more simple programs can use Assembly to make small, very fast, and resource-effective programs.
ShowJust compare it to the Java programming language. Raw magic is Assembly, the Weave is the Java VM, and spellcasting is programming with Java.
Programming in Java allows you to do some cool stuff, easily make flashy programs that will run on many computers, but it's limited to what the VM allows (so no direct byte access to some device registers, or stuff like that). On the other hand, Assembly is not restricted in any way, and ultimately you can do anything in Assembly what you can do in Java. But it's much more complicated and dangerous, and a single screw up can send your program into a BSoD.
Now, the Java VM just died. The programmers are looking for another way to make their programs and just found Assembly. Those who try to make the same complicated, flashy applications they made with Java will die out, because they won't get anything done in time in Assembly. However, those who make more simple programs can use Assembly to make small, very fast, and resource-effective programs.
But what of people like me who were taught C,C++ and assembly, before learning Java. [...]
C and C++ should just die. Seriously, their time is long gone.
;)[...] No, I think that the issue goes deeper [...]
Yes, I know my example wasn't a perfect analogy, but I tried to keep it simple. Not to mention that Assembly is platform specific, and that the pointer arithmetic from C/C++ is highly error prone (*cough*stack overflow*cough*). :P
I see... All this retconning is making me dizzy...
-Yes.
Anyway, it doesn't change my point.
-Seconded.
Like I said in another thread, I liked to link the S Weave to the Karse Stone, which was Karsus' corpse.
-The Karse Stone is Karsus' heart.
Couldn't this serve as the explanation for why the "new magic" is much less powerful than the "old magic"? All casters had to change their techniques for accessing raw magic, and those who tried to channel the same amount of energy were just ripped apart by it. The casters we see in the current FR are those, that were right in their mind and scaled down the power they use for their spells.
-The problem lies in figuring out how wizards access Raw Magic, to begin with, which has been a no-no in the past, in that it's raw power is harmful.
-The problem lies in figuring out how wizards access Raw Magic, to begin with, which has been a no-no in the past, in that it's raw power is harmful.
Could you tie it to another source of power? There are earth nodes now that arcane casters can tap power from. Apart from destruction could a few of these be used as linking points for some kind of mythal-esqe construction? Feeding their power into castings within the area enclosed by their "net" and possibly extra enchantments woven into it over time.
Of course this would lead to the locations having to be fortified and protected to stop the destruction of the node. A nice adventure maybe? Protect the Node from an attack to defend a settlement's magic... or to attack the one of an evil force that seeks to set one up of their own?
I don't know. Just thoughts.
-It's the best you've got, now. Does anything else really fit? The Shadowfell, that's supposed to be evil, and the Far Realm, that supposed to be crazy. The Astral/Ethereal Sea (I forget which one it is), there really isn't anything ambivalently magic-granting about it. The Plane of Faerie, it is.
From the new FRCG:'Raw magic is the stuff of creation itself, suffusing every bit of matter and every manifestaion of energy.' It does not need a plane as its source.
Originally Mystra was the weave and you could access that energy through gestures etc. Now there is no weave. A character must construct his own personal warp and weft to make a weave to cast anything. That is how all classes access the power of magic through their powers. Magic items have their own weave which allows them to perform certain powers, some spell-like and some merely similar to powers of classes.Arcane, martial, etc. are just differing ways of accessing that power. The ability of heroes to tap that power would explain healing surges. Since wizards are the unmatched masters of understanding arcana, they can actually reattune their own individual matrices to differing spells, rather than be stuck with the same ones.
To borrow a quote from a wizard in the original erthdawn game which some of this appears to be modeled after, especially considering minions: The other classes are very good at what they do, they just don't understand what they do. Not quoted word for word, but you get the idea.
Originally Mystra was the weave and you could access that energy through gestures etc. Now there is no weave. A character must construct his own personal warp and weft to make a weave to cast anything.
-Right. The problem is that were not told how this is possible, when, in the past, by all accounts, it was not. Once that part is filled in (if ever), things run a lot smoother.
As far as trying to reconstruct a weave, you would need to create a multipart magic item, with one part similar to a wand for each spell in existence, or at least each spell you wished to replicate. Then you would need a means for spellcasters within a certain range to be able to access it, such as a series of incantations and gestures required to trigger the device. Though far from being a perfect weave reproduction, you could imitate some of the effects on a limited basis.
The point I was trying to make is that each 'matrix' that a wizard has in which he is capable of placing a spell (his daily, encounter, etc powers) is it's own limited weave. A first level wizard with 1 encounter, and 1 daily spell would have matrices. At will powers are simpl enough that they can be used without a matrix. Note simple does not necessarily mean easy as some at wills are reserved for higher levels.With preparation, a wizard can change the spell the matrix is adapted to. A fighter for example, does much the same thing with his exploits, only it is intuitive and therefore he can't reattune his exploits on a daily basis to suit his whims the way a wizard can.
I like your explanation. Except for the at will abilities it sounds alot like how psionics worked on Toril in the 14th century though.
The source for magic is still the life energy of all natural worlds in the primes. So in my view most of the tapped magical energy (raw magic) originates from the stars and systems of other worlds where no systems exist to catch that energy. On Toril the raw magic gets caught in the web of the weave (perhaps Mystra did this actively to make the setting Higher or Lower in magic power). Now that web is gone the raw magic isn't collected so people dont fry as they get hit with merely diluted and strayed energy. Accessing this new less dense but more primal and raw magic will be more attuned to the local laws of Torils natural world.
So Iluvrien your geomancy ideas fit in quite well here. To make nodes the inherent energy of Abeir-Torils (Chaunteas) body needs to stream upward and pool together at a certain spot. Also areas with stunted magicstreams beneath the surface like in the plaguelands might "snake" around continually searching for outlets like totems or crystals.
Geomancy rocks!
So Iluvrien your geomancy ideas fit in quite well here.
-Yes, I agree. I both liked and disliked the Node Magic stuff, in Underdark.