"You can call an apple a banana, but it's still an apple."
While I can accept that line of reasoning, I do still have a problem with the generic-ness of the labeling. Sure, it's still an apple. but there are different types of apples. Things that set one apple apart from another other than just a name.
So, I've devised a few changes of my own for my campaign (Should I start one) to better differentiate Moon / Sun elves and Wood / Wild elves. Make them something more than just different in name and personality traits alone.
Any suggestions/comments are appreciated.
Moon Elf (Eladrin): +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence / +2 Insight, +2 History
Sun Elf (Eladrin): +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma / +2 Arcana, +2 History
Wood Elf (Elf): +2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom / +2 Perception, +2 Nature
Wild Elf (Elf): +2 Strength, +2 Dexterity / +2 Stealth, +2 Nature
The only suggestion I give you is: go on with it, but don't overwhelm yourself with rewrites for every subrace of every race in Faerûn, it would be difficult to control.
I was basing alot of this on what was done in the 3e FRCG. I beleive Wild Elves had a Str/Dex bonus. But I can't say for certain off hand as my book is not handy at the moment.
If I went ahead with any additional ones, it would probably be only what was listed there. And even then, probably only stats and skill bonuses. Don't think I'd wanna try and make full blown racial templates for each sub-race.
Unless the muse REALLY hit me to do so. Which, given that I've hung up the GM screen for a short while, it very well might.
Does every elf subrace really have to be physically that different from another.
-Some yes, some no. The Elven subraces have historically and traditionally had different stats, however.
-Some yes, some no. The Elven subraces have historically and traditionally had different stats, however.
It's what molded a good portion of their personalities after all.
-Some yes, some no. The Elven subraces have historically and traditionally had different stats, however.
The Wood/Wild distinction is only 8 years old, though. Before that, all "green" elves had the same stat adjustments.
The Wood/Wild distinction is only 8 years old, though. Before that, all "green" elves had the same stat adjustments.
-Moon Elves, Sun Elves, Avariel, Lythari, Aquatic Elves, Drow...
-Some yes, some no. The Elven subraces have historically and traditionally had different stats, however.
"It was like that in the past" is not a reason solid enough at times.
Why not the Eberron approach? A lot of those subraces are more like cultures, as Aerenal and Valenar (and the Korvhaire ones) elves are in regard to the 'default, base' elf. Same stats at base, but much different cultures.
It seemed to be the approach taken. Sounds fine enough. Gold elves are still there, by example. Cultural and sociological 'flesh' on a base model.
"It was like that in the past" is not a reason solid enough at times.
Why not the Eberron approach? A lot of those subraces are more like cultures, as Aerenal and Valenar (and the Korvhaire ones) elves are in regard to the 'default, base' elf. Same stats at base, but much different cultures.
It seemed to be the approach taken. Sounds fine enough. Gold elves are still there, by example. Cultural and sociological 'flesh' on a base model.
-Do you listen to yourself sometimes? But, hey, if you want to advocate that Drow have the same stats as Sun Elves, be my guest.
-"New is better" is not "a reason solid enough at times", in your own words.
-Do you listen to yourself sometimes? But, hey, if you want to advocate that Drow have the same stats as Lythari, be my guest.
Note that *divergent* things like Drow exist iN Eberron. As distinct races (or subraces).
If there is no real reasons why a subrace have *biological* difference in stats, is not divergent enough, why not have it as cultural versions? (And there was a certain poster (Psychic Robot?) who argued that drow could have been treated the same way as Gold and Sun (and Star) elves - probably special feats around.)
So.. Are the Gold and Moon elves that different enough, really?
Lythari, hum... How work werebeingness, now? It's an elven specific one.
Do you listen and read others at times?
"New is better" is not "a reason solid enough at times", in your own words.
If the new way is better, it is.
I don't like Eberron really as a setting per se, but there was good ideas.
Again, the subraces don't die. They are not retconed away.
If there is no real reasons why a subrace have *biological* difference in stats, is not divergent enough, why not have it as cultural versions? (And there was a certain poster (Psychic Robot?) who argued that drow could have been treated the same way as Gold and Sun (and Star) elves - probably special feats around.)
-And, there is certainly reason enough for Sun Elves to have mechanical differences than Moon Elves. Sun Elves =/= Moon Elves, so there's reason enough right there. The actual details are just frosting on the cake, to make justifications.
So.. Are the Gold and Moon elves that different enough, really?
-Yes. Am I not slightly different from a Zulu warrior in Africa, in my genetics?
Lythari, hum... How work werebeingness, now? It's an elven specific one.
-I don't know. That said, Lythari differ from Werewolves in many ways. As such, Lythari get a mechanical build that is different from the Werewolf.
Do you listen and read others at times?
-Unfortunately, in some cases.
If the new way is better, it is.
-In this case, then, it isn't, then. As discussed, there are differences in Sun Elves and Moon Elves that are reflected mechanically. As such, lumping them together as one race ("Eladrin"), and writing off the differences is ignoring information.
"It was like that in the past" is not a reason solid enough at times.
How about I just like having my subraces of elves being different stat wise? Is there some moral reason why it can't happen. I mean it happens in actual nature...
@OP: I would give Moon Elves a +2 Cha as they were much more socialable then any of the other subraces of Elves and a +2 to arcane instead of history.
Also I would switch the wood elve stat bonus and the wild elf stat bonus. Atleast in previous edition of the game wood elves got the str bonus.
How about I just like having my subraces of elves being different stat wise? Is there some moral reason why it can't happen. I mean it happens in actual nature...
@OP: I would give Moon Elves a +2 Cha as they were much more socialable then any of the other subraces of Elves and a +2 to arcane instead of history.
Also I would switch the wood elve stat bonus and the wild elf stat bonus. Atleast in previous edition of the game wood elves got the str bonus.
Id ditto the idea of switching the bonuses. The wild elves would be more in touch with the wisdom side, living in the woods and all.
So.. Are the Gold and Moon elves that different enough, really?
-Yes. Am I not slightly different from a Zulu warrior in Africa, in my genetics?
That is good reason why they shouldn't have different stats. I would like to see a game make an African race with +2 str +2 con, and a European race with +int +2 cha. Yea, that wouldn't last a day. I am not saying that you are implying this, i am just saying that cultural does not imply stat changes. If a moon elf was raised in the woods, would he have the same stats? Of course not.
I would much rather see a background stat bonus. You are of race X but you lived in the wild barbarian plains, +2 str +2 con, +2 nature +2 endurance. I don't see how all moon elves are exactly the same but all are completly different then wild elves. This goes for all races in my book.
That is good reason why they shouldn't have different stats. I would like to see a game make an African race with +2 str +2 con, and a European race with +int +2 cha. Yea, that wouldn't last a day. I am not saying that you are implying this, i am just saying that cultural does not imply stat changes. If a moon elf was raised in the woods, would he have the same stats? Of course not.
-I, on the other hand, would like to see a game that does this. The reasons they don't already is because of political correctness, and the possibility that blatant racism and ethnocentrism makes itself known. Let's be frank, however: As I said, I differ from that of a Zulu warrior from deep within Africa. Sociologically, and genetically.
-I am all for the Forgotten Realms breaking Humans into multiple subraces, based on region. Calashite Humans are not exactly the same as Rashemi Humans, who are not exactly the same as the Ffolk.
-Would a Moon Elf raised in the woods have the same stats that other Moon Elves do? Depends. Some traits that Moon Elves have are from genetics, and others are from their parentage. Where the line is, we don't exactly know.
There's plenty of cultural differences between them, despite the fact that the two sub-races share the same origins, but these aren't enough to require game stats differences IMO.
That said, I like Bobsan's proposed changes for his (future) game. In particular I like how Sun Elves are listed with strictly non-physical bonuses to their stats. Fits well.
As an aside: Having played a half-elf in Eberron, I can say with firsthand experience that it's a pretty good design decision to keep stats as is (ala the PHB) and instead stress the social and cultural aspect.
That puts more emphasis on roleplaying and on players investing themselves in the campaign setting and keeps the mechanics simple.
I hope to see more DDI info on the current state of any remaining racial divisions amongst the Eladrin of the Realms. I'd also like to know more about how returning to the Feywild has effected (for good or ill) such divisions.
Very much so. I think all the races could use it, not just humans. Elves get it already because all the love that they get by authors and developers over other races. I mean elves still get 2 races, while gnomes are all sleeping at the bottom of the ocean.
-Everyone needs it, Elves, Dwarves, Orcs, Gnolls, whoever. And, again, we it up to me, we'd get even deeper: Everaer Sun Elves, as opposed to, say, Vyshaanti Sun Elves, Eaerlanni Moon Elves, as opposed to Siluvaendenn Moon Elves, and so on.
-Everyone needs it, Elves, Dwarves, Orcs, Gnolls, whoever. And, again, we it up to me, we'd get even deeper: Everaer Sun Elves, as opposed to, say, Vyshaanti Sun Elves, Eaerlanni Moon Elves, as opposed to Siluvaendenn Moon Elves, and so on.
Yeah, me too.
-I, on the other hand, would like to see a game that does this. The reasons they don't already is because of political correctness, and the possibility that blatant racism and ethnocentrism makes itself known. Let's be frank, however: As I said, I differ from that of a Zulu warrior from deep within Africa. Sociologically, and genetically.
You're not genetically different to any marked degree. Calling it political correctness is nonsense, and it always has been. I'm not saying that you personally aren't different from an average African, but that comes from your cultural background, your upbringing and your personal individual genetics rather than from any claimed racial difference. It's demonstrably the case that there are far greater differences between individual members of any particular "race" or ethnicity than there are between two different ethnic groups in anything but cosmetic ways.
You're not genetically different to any marked degree. Calling it political correctness is nonsense, and it always has been. I'm not saying that you personally aren't different from an average African, but that comes from your cultural background, your upbringing and your personal individual genetics rather than from any claimed racial difference. It's demonstrably the case that there are far greater differences between individual members of any particular "race" or ethnicity than there are between two different ethnic groups in anything but cosmetic ways.
-Research demonstrates that certain group traits may be the result of the environment, or genetics (or both). Common environmental factors exist within various groups, and yet, marked physical (genetic) differences appear, be it in average individual size, average individual IQ, what have you. A famous experiment was done: Two sets of corn seed were grown in the same soil, which happened to be nutrient poor. One bag of seed was average size, while the other was known to yield oversized corn. When the seeds were planted, the seeds that yielded average size corn grew to be slightly undersized, due to the soil. The bag that yielded oversized corn grew oversized corn.
-It's certainly a sensitive subject, for various reasons, but I feel that most research in the field is either dismissed, or ignored, because it is a sensitive subject. Evidence is evidence, however.
-Research demonstrates that certain group traits may be the result of the environment, or genetics (or both). Common environmental factors exist within various groups, and yet, marked physical (genetic) differences appear, be it in average individual size, average individual IQ, what have you. A famous experiment was done: Two sets of corn seed were grown in the same soil, which happened to be nutrient poor. One bag of seed was average size, while the other was known to yield oversized corn. When the seeds were planted, the seeds that yielded average size corn grew to be slightly undersized, due to the soil. The bag that yielded oversized corn grew oversized corn.
-It's certainly a sensitive subject, for various reasons, but I feel that most research in the field is either dismissed, or ignored, because it is a sensitive subject. Evidence is evidence, however.
I'm fairly sure that the "experiments" carried out in Beijing in August 2008 don't suggest any general physical superiority for one ethnicity of humans over the others.
As for measuring non-physical attributes, that's really hard to do in a way that serious psychologists would regard as valid. Most experiments in the area are unconvincing because they assume certain common educational standards which aren't necessarily present. When they're carried out with as much care as possible to avoid bias, the differences between different ethnic groups are so small that no one is quite sure whether they're caused by unrecognised experimental bias or actually exist, and certainly aren't large enough to justify an adjustment in D&D Intelligence scores. Incidentally one common feature of them is that younger people get higher average scores, and there's also a difference between the average score of men and women that's at least as large as that between different ethnic groups. So if you really want to include bonuses like this, make sure you take those factors into account.
I'm fairly sure that the "experiments" carried out in Beijing in August 2008 don't suggest any general physical superiority for one ethnicity of humans over the others.
-I am not familiar with this. That said, nowhere did I say that I espouse the notion that certain ethnicities are superior to others. I espouse the notion that different ethnicities are different than each other, in different attributes, but being smarter, or stronger, or more charismatic, or whatever else does not make a "master race". Far from it.
As for measuring non-physical attributes, that's really hard to do in a way that serious psychologists would regard as valid. Most experiments in the area are unconvincing because they assume certain common educational standards which aren't necessarily present. When they're carried out with as much care as possible to avoid bias, the differences between different ethnic groups are so small that no one is quite sure whether they're caused by unrecognised experimental bias or actually exist, and certainly aren't large enough to justify an adjustment in D&D Intelligence scores.
-Hence why I said that I feel that studies into this realm have merit, but too many would voluntarily ignore/throw out any results, based on the notion that bias exists, even when bias may not exist.
Incidentally one common feature of them is that younger people get higher average scores, and there's also a difference between the average score of men and women that's at least as large as that between different ethnic groups. So if you really want to include bonuses like this, make sure you take those factors into account.
-I think it's no secret that, as technology and general awareness goes, every subsequent generation, as a whole, is getting smarter and smarter, because of direct and residual exposure to such things. Based on the advantages that I have over individuals of the past, I have no real problem asserting that I, as a whole, am smarter than the likes of many of the best thinkers of ages past.
-I am not familiar with this. That said, nowhere did I say that I espouse the notion that certain ethnicities are superior to others. I espouse the notion that different ethnicities are different than each other, in different attributes, but being smarter, or stronger, or more charismatic, or whatever else does not make a "master race". Far from it.
It was a reference to the Olympic Games.
Given that you suggested previously that you are genetically different from a Zulu warrior, I think one point worth remembering is that you're also genetically different from every other human being who ever lived (unless you have an identical twin?). The differences between you and that zulu are only partly down to your ancestry and far far more to do with the fact that he lived a very different lifestyle. If you're big, heavily built, 'into' sports then it's quite possible that physically you'd outclass most Zulus - I do. That's not something that is peculiar to particular groups.-Hence why I said that I feel that studies into this realm have merit, but too many would voluntarily ignore/throw out any results, based on the notion that bias exists, even when bias may not exist.
The experiments have merit to a degree, but the problem is that it's really hard to tell what you are actually measuring. Some things just aren't part of the upbringing of certain groups. If people have no exposure as children to certain things taken for granted by the researchers, can they possibly answer questions set by people who take those things for granted? While there have been tests in London among schoolchildren with common educational backgrounds which suggest that the Afro-Caribbean boys are less intelligent, how much of that is a cultural dislike among Afro-Caribbean bots for appearing smart? And why don't the same results come up with A-C girls?
-I think it's no secret that, as technology and general awareness goes, every subsequent generation, as a whole, is getting smarter and smarter, because of direct and residual exposure to such things. Based on the advantages that I have over individuals of the past, I have no real problem asserting that I, as a whole, am smarter than the likes of many of the best thinkers of ages past.
And to be honest, in large populations the differences are so marginal between groups and so large between individuals within those populations, I simply see no rationale for according one segment of a race a particular Stats advantage over another. That certainly shouldn't get serious consideration from anyone with regard to humans.
That isn't to say I don't agree with any differences between groups. I would certainly be fine with giving all Rashemi a bonus to survival checks, or all Tuigan a bonus to Ride, or all Amnians a bonus to Appraise. Those though are cultural distinction, and I'd probably give as much regard to other parts of people's backgrounds so that someone from a farming background would probably have different benefits to someone from a noble family.
This does not conclude that these things are guaranteed, as a racial stat implies.
I mean my sister, mother, brother, father, uncles, aunts, and more all use glasses, does that mean i wear them. Nope, perfect vision. I am def though.
PS. Oh no, whites are genetically poor at drinking! http://www.teachervision.fen.com/alcoholism/substance-abuse/145.html
Like MJ said, it doesn't matter if you're black or white. ;)
"It was like that in the past" is not a reason solid enough at times.
Why not the Eberron approach? A lot of those subraces are more like cultures, as Aerenal and Valenar (and the Korvhaire ones) elves are in regard to the 'default, base' elf. Same stats at base, but much different cultures.
It seemed to be the approach taken. Sounds fine enough. Gold elves are still there, by example. Cultural and sociological 'flesh' on a base model.
This statement is flatly and unabashedly incorrect.
It was like that in the past might not work for governments, or for politicians, or for local towns, or for recipes and local food substitutions.
But to say that it doesn't work that way for a race that has an average lifespan in the hundreds of years when less than one generation of those creatures has passed upon the planet is so ignorant as to be worthy of special mention.
Add to this:
The low reproductive rate of Elves.
The insularity of the Elves as a people.
The insistence of many members of that race on maintaining it's racial uniqueness, and not falling into interracial relationships with dwarves or humans or what have you.
I'm sorry, Ubergeek. You're not just illogical. You're flat out ignoring every single point of logic that would cause things to be the same for Elves in a hundred years. That's just not enough time passing.
This statement is flatly and unabashedly incorrect.
It was like that in the past might not work for governments, or for politicians, or for local towns, or for recipes and local food substitutions.
But to say that it doesn't work that way for a race that has an average lifespan in the hundreds of years when less than one generation of those creatures has passed upon the planet is so ignorant as to be worthy of special mention.
Add to this:
The low reproductive rate of Elves.
The insularity of the Elves as a people.
The insistence of many members of that race on maintaining it's racial uniqueness, and not falling into interracial relationships with dwarves or humans or what have you.
I'm sorry, Ubergeek. You're not just illogical. You're flat out ignoring every single point of logic that would cause things to be the same for Elves in a hundred years. That's just not enough time passing.
Except that he wasn't talking about a in-game perspective he was talking about a game development perspective. I personally don't care one way or another about this argument so I don't say that in order to start up more of it, but the argument wasn't that elves had evolved or something like that.
Forgotten Realms at its core is D&D, and when D&D changes the FR changes with it. Adapting FR to the new system happens every edition change.
Moon Elf (Eladrin): +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence / +2 Insight, +2 History
Sun Elf (Eladrin): +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma / +2 Arcana, +2 History
Wood Elf (Elf): +2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom / +2 Perception, +2 Nature
Wild Elf (Elf): +2 Strength, +2 Dexterity / +2 Stealth, +2 Nature
I like this idea and would make a change to Sun Elf.
Sun Elf (Eladrin): +2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom / +2 Arcana, +2 History
-My reasons for changing the second bonus from Wisdom to Charisma are a few. First, Gold Elves are the longest lived of the elvish races with the most extreme of long view perceptions. There have also been a number of powerful and respected clerics among the race. Lastly, Wisdom helps support their role as wizards. This gives each Eladrin breed a different Wizard build to focus on. Moon Elf is War/Wand with their Dexterity bonus, and Gold Elf lends towards Control/Orb with their Wisdom bonus. This does make Avandra's Rescue, Raging Storm and Spell Focus more difficult feats to acquire, but it does put Burning Blizzard closer in range. So there is some give and take there. This also keeps them in the Wizard and Cleric as their likely classes, whereas the Charisma puts Rogue and Warlock as their likely classes.
-I could see however making a Star Elf (Eladrin) with a +2 Intelligence and +2 Charisma.
Different strokes it seems. Continuity and "what was" does not affect me or my game and using the new stats and pretending that the elves were always like that is fine for me. I can see how if you follow canon and continuity in a "by the book" fashion this may seem illogical though. I want to play an elf now in FR really badly though now.
Actualy it has nothing to do with "follow canon and continuity in a "by the book" fashion". There is really no reason not to have multiple sub-races that except the design team what to keep it simple for themselves...which I guess is ok not very creative though. But why jumping on the poor OP who just wanted to share some ideas? I mean really don't you, Ubergeek and the rest have better things then dumping on somebody's else creative work?
Actualy it has nothing to do with "follow canon and continuity in a "by the book" fashion". There is really no reason not to have multiple sub-races that except the design team what to keep it simple for themselves...which I guess is ok not very creative though. But why jumping on the poor OP who just wanted to share some ideas? I mean really don't you, Ubergeek and the rest have better things then dumping on somebody's else creative work?
I just offered my opinion on the matter, and I think I was responding to the MS/Trobon/MrM mini conversation and not really the OP. I am perfectly happy with what he did even if I would not use it. For his game he used his imagination to fill a spot that he felt was lacking which is pretty cool.
The thread turned into an elf subrace thing about 4 posts into it though and that is pretty much was I was talking about. cang started to take the thread down a different road and we all went along for the ride. LK was also part of the ride it seems because I don't think it was that big of a deal.
-Would a Moon Elf raised in the woods have the same stats that other Moon Elves do? Depends. Some traits that Moon Elves have are from genetics, and others are from their parentage. Where the line is, we don't exactly know.
So genetically, and also because they've been condensed into the one Eldarin race, perhaps just a +1 bonus? That way, it can have as much or as little mechanical effect as you want. You want a stereotypical Moon Elf? you've already got the plus one. You want a Moon Elf who was raised by Wild Elves? the plus one gives very little mechanical advantage to his Wild Elf peers. That way you have a lot more wiggle room for personal differences while still retaining the flavor of the different subraces.