And it grew on me, little by little. It was then that I began to ask myself "What makes the Realms...well...the Realms?" What is it about the world that draws me too it? And to each person, that answer will vary. For me, it's the detail and the rich history that makes the realms feel like home. And though we're up a 100 years, the history still remains. It's like watching one child leave the nest and a new one is born to raise anew (Corney, true. But truthful in my eyes). A chance to see a new era of heroes rise up and take the places of the heroes long since gone.
And that's why I like the new 4e Realms.....
Except....
Yes, an except. One thing that bugs me not only for its lack of explanation, but for the fact that a few of my players were hesitant about the changes not only from 4e, but of the changes made to the Realms itself. And this new discovery, found but an hour ago in the new FRPG, makes me fear that this will drive them from the world all together.
How, oh how, did Moon Elves and Sun Elves suddenly become Eladrin? What cosmic koinkydink occurred that forever altered two such iconic elven races into what I had been able to explain to those 4e hesitant players as not a fancy shamcy sun elf change, but as an off-shoot of the elven race? An explanation that placated them and convinced them to try the rules out.
Can someone please, oh please, explain this WTF? Sure, I could just chalk it up to the Spellplague as any bizarre changes could. But that feels like nothing more than a cop-out and I know they will see it that way too.
flavor wise they should be played the same as always, they just both share the same mechanical benefits.
FYI, star elves are eladrin too
Forgotten Realms occurs in the D&D universe. When D&D changes, FR changes with it. Always has, always will.
In FR, your fancy-pant elves are Moon, Sun, and Star. The tree-huggers are Wood and Wild. And the meany-heads are the drow.
In 4e D&D, they decided to split the elves more solidly, since the subrace thing was getting embarrassing, and leave it at just the three. Since fancy-pants elves usually have a different name, they stole the old Eladrin, since they were broadly elf-like, and it lets them dodge the subrace problem. So now it's Eladrin = Fancy-Pants, Elf = Tree-Huggers, and Drow = dark elves.
Further subdivisions can be put down to culture and society and environment, and can be distinguished through role-play and focused character building.
Of course, Eldarin was Tolkien's elven language word for 'elvish' in the first place, with the Eldar his fancy-pants elves, I think. D&D's Eladrin seems to have a letter-swap borrowing in the first place.
Warhammer also uses Eldar and Eldarin for its fancy-pants elves. So does Raymond E Feist for his own, and adds eledhel for the tree-huggers and moredhel for the dark elves.
For FR and D&D, it's probably best just to ignore the name-change, and just use the most appropriate stats for each brand of elf. As for those CG outsiders, the PHB 4e makes implications that they are advanced fancy-pants elves, which I'm not sure is a retcon or not.
And this is different from Halflings and Dwarves suddenly being able to be Sorcerers and Wizards at the launch of 3E how?
This is probably different to some because then at least for the dwarves an explanation was given within the book (Look 'Thunder Twin' feat FRCS pg.38).
That's what 4ed is generally lacking: Background information like why halflings are now taller (also in the Realms?) or why some of the elven races have changed to a different set of racial rules.
Although we will probably not use the term eladrin in-game (except for the noble eladrin), I will probably have no problems with sunelves (and other elves-now-eladrins) using eladrin statistics from the Corebook.
To offer an answer to the threads question: you might explain the changes away with the 'return' of the Feywild (Faerie), which infused the more 'magic-fey'-elves with it's powers, explaining the rules-change.
As the new FRPG hasn't arrived at my door-step sofar, I would be interested in knowing if there are any 'cosmetic' changes to the core races inclueded to make them fit the 'old' look of the FR-races (sunelves golden hair , moonelves blackhair and pale skin, racial age expectations, halfling height and so on)?
Best wishes
Lirdolin
As the new FRPG hasn't arrived at my door-step sofar, I would be interested in knowing if there are any 'cosmetic' changes to the core races inclueded to make them fit the 'old' look of the FR-races (sunelves golden hair , moonelves blackhair and pale skin, racial age expectations, halfling height and so on)?
Best wishes
Lirdolin
Indeed there are. The colorings of the Moon, Sun, Wood, and Wild elves are fully described in the FRPG, and are different from those in the 4E PHB.
How, oh how, did Moon Elves and Sun Elves suddenly become Eladrin? What cosmic koinkydink occurred that forever altered two such iconic elven races into what I had been able to explain to those 4e hesitant players as not a fancy shamcy sun elf change, but as an off-shoot of the elven race? An explanation that placated them and convinced them to try the rules out.
Can someone please, oh please, explain this WTF? Sure, I could just chalk it up to the Spellplague as any bizarre changes could. But that feels like nothing more than a cop-out and I know they will see it that way too.
Spellplague. Really, that is the answer. Due to the planar / magical realignments of Faerun with other planes (in this case, the "nearness" to Faerie), the eladrin are now more "fey". At least, they supposedly express more of their "feyness" which (via massive retcon) had supposedly been reduced. Now that Faerun is "closer" to Faerie, the eladrin "regained" fey step, shiny glowy eyes, and so forth.
But yeah, it is artificial because it's a retcon on top of a plot device. The truly bizarre thing that really stretches credibility with this whole thing (IMO) is that the forest elves should be closer to Faerie than either the moon elves (theoretically, moon elves are the "most like humans" in all old descriptions) or the gold elves (who've always been painted as the height of elvish civilization). Their reasoning seems a bit backwards to me, with respect to the "closeness to Faerie" explanation, but that's what the designers chose to force on us. Having the forest elves be the least fey is just wrong, from the perspective of history / lore and from the larger understanding of myth and legend with respect to elves and their fey cousins (fauns, satyrs, etc).
Spellplague. Really, that is the answer. Due to the planar / magical realignments of Faerun with other planes (in this case, the "nearness" to Faerie), the eladrin are now more "fey". At least, they supposedly express more of their "feyness" which (via massive retcon) had supposedly been reduced. Now that Faerun is "closer" to Faerie, the eladrin "regained" fey step, shiny glowy eyes, and so forth.
But yeah, it is artificial because it's a retcon on top of a plot device. The truly bizarre thing that really stretches credibility with this whole thing (IMO) is that the forest elves should be closer to Faerie than either the moon elves (theoretically, moon elves are the "most like humans" in all old descriptions) or the gold elves (who've always been painted as the height of elvish civilization). Their reasoning seems a bit backwards to me, with respect to the "closeness to Faerie" explanation, but that's what the designers chose to force on us. Having the forest elves be the least fey is just wrong, from the perspective of history / lore and from the larger understanding of myth and legend with respect to elves and their fey cousins (fauns, satyrs, etc).
Seems simple enough to me. The ones who'd been away from Faerie/the Feywild longest had lost their connection to it. "Adapted" to their new world, if you like.
Seems simple enough to me. The ones who'd been away from Faerie/the Feywild longest had lost their connection to it. "Adapted" to their new world, if you like.
The "original loss" of the gold/moon elves isn't the problem with the retcon. The sylvan elves, per Realms lore, have always been closest to Faerie. When Faerun supposedly moved closer to Faerie (whatever that means), why didn't the sylvan elves have the most exaggerated "return" to their feyish qualities? That's the problem with the retcon: sylvan elves are now (physically) the least fey-affected of the elves.
(That is to say, while it certainly is a retcon, at least it gives reason to throw away the silly notion that faerie realm is somehow closer to nature than the material world. Though my opinion is biased against those fansy pansies anyway, which just might skew my perception of things.)
You need to remember that Faerie is a supernatural world; it's not the origin point of nature, but a place where physical laws bend and twist. There's very little natural about the magic-infused elven kingdoms of old, no matter how much they claim to appreciate the beauty of nature. The eladrin idea of nature is like an artificially constructed theme park where they can smell the flowers all day long without having to worry about all the icky things.
(That is to say, while it certainly is a retcon, at least it gives reason to throw away the silly notion that faerie realm is somehow closer to nature than the material world. Though my opinion is biased against those fansy pansies anyway, which just might skew my perception of things.)
Even supernatural / magic worlds need to have a certain consistency to them, otherwise the believability breaks down. To affect the gold and moon elves, but not effect the sylvan elves (who should feel the effect more strongly), it lacks consistency. That's all I'm saying.
Even supernatural / magic worlds need to have a certain consistency to them, otherwise the believability breaks down. To affect the gold and moon elves, but not effect the sylvan elves (who should feel the effect more strongly), it lacks consistency. That's all I'm saying.
The whole "They left Faerie long ago and are no longer part of it" theme is one that's appeared in mythology and literature for centuries. Just because sylvan elves live a particular lifestyle it doesn't make them closer to Faerie. They've been away for longer and find it harder to connect.
Plus the inconsitencies and the quirks are what i have always loved about fey lore as a whole (not dnd specific).
Its just a word, and makes NO difference mechanically to the game.
There have always been three major divisions amongs the Elves in Core - the aloof Gray Elves, the Sylvan Elves, and the Drow. There was also the High Elves, which were FR's Silver Elves, but were fairly close to Gray Elves in everything but attitude. In 1e FR, there were other sub-races beneath those, but only those four mechanically. Toward the end of 2e and into 3e, they started to add in mechanical differences among the various sub-groups of those major branches, but essentially, all Elves still pretty-much fell out within one of those groups.
All they did was say that the Gray (and High) Elves (FR's Gold, Silver, and Star) were known as Eladrin way back when. Humans, not knowing the intricacies of Elven Society, just called them all Elves. After 17,000 years or so, so did everyone else, including themselves.
Don't think of it as a change, think of it as getting back to their 'roots'. With the Feywild now in conjunction with Toril once again, the 'Gray Elves' have gotten back in touch with their original forbears, and are now applying that appelation - Eladrin - to themselves again.
The Sylvan Elves are still exactly the same as well - they always just considered themselves 'Elves'. And Drow have always been Drow (game-wise, not chronologically).
On the surface it may seem like a great, big change, but the reality is is that it is just a name. I call myself Irish, but I've never been to Ireland - I was born here, and so was my dad. My Grandfather came from Ireland. So I call myself Irish, but its only just a 'tag' - the reality is I'm American.
The only part that confuses canon is that there already was a race called 'Eladrin', which were the equivalent of Elven Angels. However, thats pretty easy to reconcile as well - the Eladrin we have known since 2e are the Epic members of the race. The 'normal' run-of-the-mill Eladrin were rarely encountered outside of Toril (where they have become known as Elves). Anyone running into one while traveling the planes would have just thought though they were dealing with an Elf. The 'Eladrin' of 2e were different enough from the lower 'tiers' of the race for humans (and others) to note the difference. Ergo, a Prime traveling the planes would think that these two were different races, but the reality was that he/she was just encountering Eladrin at vastly different levels of power.
Language is also different from world to world, and plane to plane, so all of these different names and sub-groups could just be chalked up to a language barrier. A Torillian or Oerthan that travelled to Faerie (4e's Feywild) may have met a group of Elves calling thmselves 'Eladrin', but they would have just thought it was a local tribal deliniation.
So it is not so much a reton, as it is an update of our knowledge of the "secrets of the Universe". ;)
I've also looked at a new house rule / Change regarding differentiating a bit more between the types of elves as 3.5e did.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1089766
Opinions are welcomed
And this is different from Halflings and Dwarves suddenly being able to be Sorcerers and Wizards at the launch of 3E how?
Forgotten Realms occurs in the D&D universe. When D&D changes, FR changes with it. Always has, always will.
For me, Dwarves in the FR cannot be sorcerers or wizards, regardless of the setting changes. Unless there's some great exception (Feat or special rule)that someone can convince me of, I do not allow it. But that's just me.
And this is different from Halflings and Dwarves suddenly being able to be Sorcerers and Wizards at the launch of 3E how?
-The current..."predicament" does not have any impact on the lore of the setting, that could create continuity gaffes, whereas the above would. As MT said,
Its just a word, and makes NO difference mechanically to the game.
-Though, I'd replace "mechanically" with "lore-wise".
I say 'mechanically', because if you are using the 4e mechanics, it really doesn't matter what you call the Eladrin or the Elves. You could be running an entirely different world from FR, and call the Eladrin 'Færie', and the Elves 'Huldrafolk', and the Drow 'Dökkálfar'. Basically, it doesn't matter WHAT you call them, as long as you are using the corrrect mechanics in the rules to represent the group.
I would say it DOESN'T matter lore-wise, only because a name changes nothing. Maybe 'Eladrin' is an old Elvish word that just never saw usage after they came to Toril. They may have used it occassionally when speaking to one another, but it would have become an Archaic term and rarely spoken. Technically, according to RAW, all three groups are STILL part of a larger overgroup, which has yet to be named (I believe it was sugested that the Elves call the main race 'Elves', and the Eladrin call it 'Eladrin', leaving us with even more confusion, because obviously each group has there own take on what is an Elf and what is an Eladrin).
For instance, the Drow would STILL refer to both (Sylvan) Elves and the Eladrin (Sun, Moon, and Star) as 'Faerie Elves'. Nothing has changed, except our own meta-knwledge of things. Who cares if the re-introduction of the Feywild has caused some old terminology to come back into vogue - it makes NO difference, really, to Toril's history. Words are just words, after all.
I've been called plenty of things in my life, but I sure hope that most of them were wrong. ;)
Wow, thanks for the responses folks! Well appreciated and should help clear up issues that my players may end up having.
I've also looked at a new house rule / Change regarding differentiating a bit more between the types of elves as 3.5e did.
For me, Dwarves in the FR cannot be sorcerers or wizards, regardless of the setting changes. Unless there's some great exception (Feat or special rule)that someone can convince me of, I do not allow it. But that's just me.
I pretty much do the same - Dwarves and Halflings can become mages, but it is EXTREMELY rare, and I would need a really good back-story from someone for it.
As for the other stuff, your welcome. You need to remember that the stuff in the rulebooks only applies to your players, who are living here in the real world (I hope), and NOT to their characters. If a term bothers you, just don't use it. Just because it is in a rulebook doesn't mean all-of-a-sudden everyone on Toril is bandying it about.
Words are just words, after all.
-Yes, yes, this.
killing old eladrin just for the name was unnecessary
-The Plane of Faerie was never inaccessible. In fact, the Plane of Faerie has always been coterminous with the Prime Material Plane, and "very" close at that, however you measure planar boundaries. The keen senses of the Lythari allowed them to "sniff out" (no pun intended) portals going to and from the Plane of Faerie like people smell food.
Then why was the plane of Faerie described as being "lost" and "having returned" in the FRCG?
Then why was the plane of Faerie described as being "lost" and "having returned" in the FRCG?
-Someone got something wrong. The Plane of Faerie was never "lost", was never "gone", was never any of that.
-Someone got something wrong. The Plane of Faerie was never "lost", was never "gone", was never any of that.
Would it be safe to say that long ago the plane of Faerie was closer than it was prior to the Spellplague, and post-Spellplague the plane of Faerie is now again really close?
-Someone got something wrong. The Plane of Faerie was never "lost", was never "gone", was never any of that.
Then where was it in 1e (Great Wheel, no Faerie), 2e (Great Wheel, no Faerie), and 3e (Mountain, River, Tree, no Faerie)? If it wasn't "lost" or "gone," then why was it completely inaccessible?
Would it be safe to say that long ago the plane of Faerie was closer than it was prior to the Spellplague, and post-Spellplague the plane of Faerie is now again really close?
Exactly.
Before, it was as accessable as any other plane; now, its much closer. Think of it as having the plane as a neighbor living a few blocks away, and now they have moved right next door. Since Dan isn't around anymore, I can venture to bring evolution into play here -
The Eladrin 'orphaned' on Toril after the split slowly, over tme, 'lost' the ability, because of Mystra's Weave (I have often-enough postulated how the Weave could have had other uses, such as keeping 'things' out of Realmspace, such as malignant creatures or even gods). Suppose the Weave acts as a magical filter, and everything that 'runs through it' gets 'watered down'. Most of the Eladrin found it too difficult to re-establish a connection to Faerie (the Feywild), and just stopped trying. However some, with a better understanding of their inheritant ability, did manage to overcome it - one such group would be the Lythari. Over time, the Lythari would have gotten used to the way magic works on Toril and been able to easily access their racial abilities.
Once the the Feywild became very close to Toril again, it's presence 're-awakened' their ancient recessed abilities (as thecasualoblivion has already pointed out).
eladrin weren't elven angels
killing old eladrin just for the name was unnecessary
True.
I only referred to them as that to make a point - I realize the comparison is far from exact.
As for the re-using of old names for something 'new' (and I use that term VERY loosely), I think the 4e Lamia is the worst example of this. Sure, its a cool creature and all... but it sure as hell ain't no Lamia.
There seems to be a big trend in just regurgitating old material in new forms, including fallen empires. The utter lack of creativity by the current team is simply amazing.
They can't even come up with new names for stuff. Ed can roll off at least a hundred names an hour off the top of his head - big difference between 'old school' and new.
Doesn't matter to me though - I don't plan on paying attention to anything post 1385. :D
Would it be safe to say that long ago the plane of Faerie was closer than it was prior to the Spellplague, and post-Spellplague the plane of Faerie is now again really close?
-Like I said in my post, that all depends on how you define planar boundaries. What defines close? Can a piece of paper laid on top of another piece of paper get any closer?
Since Dan isn't around anymore, I can venture to bring evolution into play here -
-Shame on you. You know as well as anyone else that Elves do not evolve. Though, what you go on to say doesn't really deal with evolution, per se.
Then where was it in 1e (Great Wheel, no Faerie), 2e (Great Wheel, no Faerie), and 3e (Mountain, River, Tree, no Faerie)? If it wasn't "lost" or "gone," then why was it completely inaccessible?
-Again, the Plane of Faerie was never "completely inaccessible". Magic of Faerûn gives us Faerie Crossroads, the Moonshae Trilogy features characters navigating early versions of these crossroads, and the novel Silver Shadows has scenes that take place in the Plane of Faerie, having had Lythari enter through portals into Faerie.
I suppose apotheosis might be better, although loosing the abilty for the masses works more the other way.
Exactly.
Before, it was as accessable as any other plane; now, its much closer. Think of it as having the plane as a neighbor living a few blocks away, and now they have moved right next door. Since Dan isn't around anymore, I can venture to bring evolution into play here -
The Eladrin 'orphaned' on Toril after the split slowly, over tme, 'lost' the ability, because of Mystra's Weave (I have often-enough postulated how the Weave could have had other uses, such as keeping 'things' out of Realmspace, such as malignant creatures or even gods). Suppose the Weave acts as a magical filter, and everything that 'runs through it' gets 'watered down'. Most of the Eladrin found it too difficult to re-establish a connection to Faerie (the Feywild), and just stopped trying. However some, with a better understanding of their inheritant ability, did manage to overcome it - one such group would be the Lythari. Over time, the Lythari would have gotten used to the way magic works on Toril and been able to easily access their racial abilities.
Once the the Feywild became very close to Toril again, it's presence 're-awakened' their ancient recessed abilities (as thecasualoblivion has already pointed out).
I like this!
Score:
:coolcthul 
killing old eladrin just for the name was unnecessary
The old eladrin still exist. They are simply the most powerful of the eladrin, such as the Ghaele of Winter and the Bralani of the Autumn Winds.
It's more of 'evolve' on a personal level, rather then anything genetic, since they never lost the ability. Some just chose not to bother anymore (after all, their homeland in Faerie was now gone), while others (the Lythari) chose to overcome adversity.
-Adaptation is a better word than 'evolve', yes.
-Elaine Cunningham elaborated on the Lythari ability to detect portals. They do not have the ability to Plane Shift at will, as I had believed. Elaine said that, just like dogs have much sharper senses than Humans, Lythari have much sharper senses than Elves. Elves get that little bonus to detecting secret doors. Lythari have that ability, but on a much grander scale. They can detect planar boundaries. Knowing where the portals/crossroads are, it makes it seem as if they can teleport.
-She said this a while ago, when we first began Elves of Faerûn.
If you recall, I pointed out something similar that transpired in the Moonshae novels - other Fey cretures, like the Trollkin, were able to detect these portals as well.
The Moonshaes appear to be one of those regions that is even closer to the Feywild then the rest of Toril, meaning that before the Spellplague, being on those islands was similar to being on the Toril of 4e - Faerie was MUCH closer.
Now, in 4e, it appears that Brian and other designers think this as well, and whereas the rest of Toril is 'right next door' to Faerie at this point, parts of the Moonnshaes have now merged with Faerie, so you can't even tell where the Feywild begins, and Faerûn ends.
I like this take, because it ties in nicely to some Oriental lore concerning spirits (which I equate with western Fey), and how certain places have 'portals' to the Shadoworld and the Spirit Realm (4e's Shadowfel and Feywild). As I extrapolate my K-T lore forward, these 'portals' will become much more important in the east.
You know me... I can't help but tie everything together... even sometimes when there really is no need. :P
or some-such nonsense.
Maybe the Eladrin know... but they're not telling...
-I just wish someone could actually get to the explaining about how the distance between planes are measured.
By how easy it is to travel between them.
Perhaps when a plane is "further", it is easier to travel to, being as that there is more "empty space" in the in between, who knows?
A place that is further away is normally not easier to travel to. Just as the 7-Eleven two blocks away is easier to travel to than the 7-Eleven 200 miles away, so, too, is a plane that is "close" to your world easier to travel to than one that is "further" from your world.
And as I recall (I don't have my Magic of Faerun at hand at work), fey crossroads and backroads do not take you into Faerie, they just allow instantaneous transport between two locations. I think there's some kind of little quirk for fey, but I can't remember it.
-Again, the Plane of Faerie was never "completely inaccessible". Magic of Faerûn gives us Faerie Crossroads, the Moonshae Trilogy features characters navigating early versions of these crossroads, and the novel Silver Shadows has scenes that take place in the Plane of Faerie, having had Lythari enter through portals into Faerie.
from what I remember of Silver Shadows Arilyn asks the lythari if it is Faerie and his response is somewhere along the lines of "almost but not quite."
... and the novel Silver Shadows has scenes that take place in the Plane of Faerie, having had Lythari enter through portals into Faerie.
Technically, this one wasn't Faerie but a "place in between" as described by one of the lythari. The lythari could get to Faerie, but the place they visited in this novel wasn't Faerie. (I'm re-reading this novel, actually... Arilyn makes the mistake of thinking that it's Faerie, and her lythari friend corrects her).
A place that is further away is normally not easier to travel to. Just as the 7-Eleven two blocks away is easier to travel to than the 7-Eleven 200 miles away, so, too, is a plane that is "close" to your world easier to travel to than one that is "further" from your world.
-Of course, different planes exist on different wavelengths. The space I am ten feet from on the Plane of Faerie is as close to me as the space ten feet from me on the Prime Material Plane. Hence my questioning the use of distance terms.
-Of course, different planes exist on different wavelengths. The space I am ten feet from on the Plane of Faerie is as close to me as the space ten feet from me on the Prime Material Plane. Hence my questioning the use of distance terms.
I always considered planar distance to be in direct proportion to the energy that had to be expended in opening a portal or gate to there.
So a "close" plane might be such that you could wander back and forth almost at will while a "distant" plane might take 4 Elven High Mages a day to manage a single transit to (kind of thing).
In that way planar "wavelengths" are a good metaphor. Think about the energy inherent to a standing wave on a string at different harmonic frequencies. It is the same string but the energy inherent in the system is different and moving between states them takes energy.
-Interesting. That's your speciality, isn't it?
Oh heck no. That is the kind of interface between Quantum Theory and General Relativity that makes my brain bleed. My speciality is space plasmas and satellite data analysis. The above is formed from the offspring of several courses on the aforementioned subjects that I have attended... and then a healthy dose of Artistic License. :D
It seemed to fit the facts well so I will keep it until new data (Someone saying "You're wrong") forces me to re-evaluate.
-As you can see from my fussing about it, I just don't like planar boundaries being described in distance. That's like saying that it takes twelve parsecs to make the Kessel Run...
I always considered planar distance to be in direct proportion to the energy that had to be expended in opening a portal or gate to there.
I like this explanation.
A couric = the amount of magical energy in a single 1st level spell. The amount of energy thus expanded to penetrate the planar veil can be accurately gauged in this manner by adding up the number of spell levels used.
Even though there is no actual 'physical' distance between planes, there is a certain amount of ectoplasm seperating them, and the greater the thickness of this barrier, the harder it is to move through.
*BTW, a couric is also used to measure other things, and I stole it from Southpark. :D
-What defines close? Can a piece of paper laid on top of another piece of paper get any closer?
Yes. Add water and mash 'em to paste. That's how WOTC did it with the Realms, didn't they?
-I just wish someone could actually get to the explaining about how the distance between planes are measured. "Closer", "further away", how does one make such claims?
or you could accept we're talking about n dimensions.
imagine a three dimension grid. this is space.
now imagine a line. this is time.
now imagine that each point on this line is also a 3-space grid.
now imagine a line perpendicular to this time-line. and one perpendicular to both of those. there you go, time travel and dimensional travel all on a single grid. 6 dimensions total.
And don't even get me started on the 5th dimension... thats where Gnomes come from.
*BTW, a couric is also used to measure other things, and I stole it from Southpark. :D
-Yes, I remember that.
Yes. Add water and mash 'em to paste. That's how WOTC did it with the Realms, didn't they?
-Spellplague.
or you could accept we're talking about n dimensions.
imagine a three dimension grid. this is space.
now imagine a line. this is time.
now imagine that each point on this line is also a 3-space grid.
now imagine a line perpendicular to this time-line. and one perpendicular to both of those. there you go, time travel and dimensional travel all on a single grid. 6 dimensions total.
-Which still doesn't account for "distance" being mislabeled as a measure in which units "between" planes are measured. Iluvrien did an excellent job, though.
Yes. Add water and mash 'em to paste. That's how WOTC did it with the Realms, didn't they?
We call that Paper-mache.
Paper Mache is considered a fine-art form compared to the 4e Realms... you shouldn't insult it like that. ;)
-Of course, different planes exist on different wavelengths. The space I am ten feet from on the Plane of Faerie is as close to me as the space ten feet from me on the Prime Material Plane. Hence my questioning the use of distance terms.
And that's why "ease of access" is the measure, not "physical distance."
If a plane requires to you wait until a blue moon (13th full moon in a year, happens once every 3 years or so), to sacrifice a virgin gold dwarf, and perform the ritual just outside the Evereska mythal... that plane isn't very "close" to the world.
If a plane simply requires you to walk into a cave (ala the Underworld in Greek Myths) or a faerie mound (ala the Otherworld in Celtic folklore)... that plane is much "closer" to the world than the previous one.
And that's why "ease of access" is the measure, not "physical distance."
-Yes. The terms "close", "far", and so on, denote distance, however. Like I said, a plane being close is like someone doing the Kessel Run in twelve parsecs.
-Yes. The terms "close", "far", and so on, denote distance, however. Like I said, a plane being close is like someone doing the Kessel Run in twelve parsecs.
That's also why I've been putting "close" and "far" in quotes, because the approximate the concept of accessible/inaccessible within a cosmology (since it functions as a sort of "map" of the universe). It's like how the Blood War raged because the fiendish planes were "closer" to eachother than to the celestial planes, despite planes being of infinite size.
That's also why I've been putting "close" and "far" in quotes, because the approximate the concept of accessible/inaccessible within a cosmology (since it functions as a sort of "map" of the universe). It's like how the Blood War raged because the fiendish planes were "closer" to eachother than to the celestial planes, despite planes being of infinite size.
-Yes, and you'll see that I am not arguing with you about things. I am discussing why such language, using distance, is just improper verbage.
-Yes, and you'll see that I am not arguing with you about things. I am discussing why such language, using distance, is just improper verbage.
You do know that close and far have definitions other than physical distance, which are appropriate, right?
Far - 1 a: remote in space b: distinctly different in quality or relationship c: remote in time
Close - 10: being near in time, space, effect, or degree
-All of which are still measuring distance. Distance into time, distance in physical space, distance in whatever.
Being near/removed in effect or degree is what you are glossing over. You are focused wholly on distance being the only possible definitions of close/far.
Me being close to my father is in no way related to distance, but is related to degree (emotional, in that case).
Planes function the same way, where close or far is not a matter of distance, but degree or effect.
In the three dimensions of space (length, breadth and height), the metric (a mathematical term for measurement of a dimension) is distance. In the one dimension of time, the metric is duration. Let's save the fifth dimension for the hypothetical parallel universe (ie Toril vs Abeir :yuck
.So we've got dimensions six and upwards (up to 10 or 26, in our universe, IIUC) to spare for the planes. These are really just bubble universes drifting in an extradimensional void. There's a metric here, that could be anything really.
This is what happens when universes/planes collide:
Other universes may be detectable, published study claims
Gaping “hole” in the cosmos detected
And people though the LHC was a problem.
Alternatively the stranger planes might be better represented by Fractal Dimensions or the rather vaguer "rolled-up" dimensions and other mathematical ideas (Dimensions). A rolled-up dimension might explain why the Feywild / Plane Of Faerie or Shadowfell / Plane Of Shadow are so close to the material. A rolled-up fractal would explain the Far Realms.
I knew my degree in pure mathematics had to be good for something some day.
The planes are simply separated by a different metric in a multidimensional environment.
In the three dimensions of space (length, breadth and height), the metric (a mathematical term for measurement of a dimension) is distance. In the one dimension of time, the metric is duration. Let's save the fifth dimension for the hypothetical parallel universe (ie Toril vs Abeir :yuck
So we've got dimensions six and upwards (up to 10 or 26, in our universe, IIUC) to spare for the planes. These are really just bubble universes drifting in an extradimensional void. There's a metric here, that could be anything really.
This is what happens when universes/planes collide:
Other universes may be detectable, published study claims
Gaping “hole” in the cosmos detected
And people though the LHC was a problem.
Alternatively the stranger planes might be better represented by Fractal Dimensions or the rather vaguer "rolled-up" dimensions and other mathematical ideas (Dimensions). A rolled-up dimension might explain why the Feywild / Plane Of Faerie or Shadowfell / Plane Of Shadow are so close to the material. A rolled-up fractal would explain the Far Realms.
I knew my degree in pure mathematics had to be good for something some day.
for you sir, for explaining what I meant better than I did.domo.
The Feywild and Shadowfell came about as seperate planes that were 'brighter' and 'darker' reflections of the prime at one point in time then they took on their own lives. This reflection status though allows them to 'overlap' much easier than other planes do. There is still a distance between them. It may not be as easily measured as we're used to since it's covering a 'dimension' we don't normally perceive or travel in but it is there. This distance is why it takes more energy, or is harder to locate a crossing point, to travel to some places than others.
On Toril some time after the Eladrin came over from Faerie, and became what we all know as elves, the plane of Faerie drifted (or was pushed) away from Toril making the connections close up and making it harder to cross over. At the same time as the Spellplague apparently both Faerie and Abeir came closer to Toril and 'stuck' at least partially.
It's also possible that their cosmological distance didn't change but instead Mystra's death and the destruction of the Weave lifted some sort of barrier that was interfering with travel between the two. Since Ao seperated Abeir to end the war with the Primordials it's barrier/crossover was only temporary and catastrophic, probably just a side-effect of Mystra's explosive death.
Faerie on the other hand being home to the raw arcane energies was likely deliberately sealed off by the Weave and with it gone can be once again normally accessed.
As for why Sun and Star elves are once again called Eladrin and have their feystep it's because of Faerie's renewed accessability. The term Eladrin was likely not known in Toril until Faerie returned and it's learned that the 'High' Elves are actually descended from Eladrin. The 'Sylvan' elves are still considered elves because they have diverged heavily from their Eladrin ancestry and more fully incoroporated into the nature of Toril.
Even in the PHB it says that elves and drow both originated from Eladrin and altered as they chose to leave behind the Feywild and their heritage to live a different way.
As for the to me bigger change in genetics that has NO explanation is the halflings. Stouts and hairfoots are entirely gone leaving just a variation of the tallfellows. WotC has already admitted they're not even gonna try to explain why halflings have grown 6-9" in the past 100 years or why they've migrated to a more nomadic culture and gone on diets. It can be assumed that at least part of it is from the upheaval from the Spellplague forcing a cultural shift while the height is a bit harder to justify unless you consider that the average height of humans on Earth has increased by about a foot over the past few hundred years.