Torm, Lawful Good, Greater God, also known as the Loyal Fury
The Tormish church includes the greatest number of paladins..., his priests are known as holy champions, his temples look like mighty citadels. Most of the tenets of the faith have not changed.
Keith
-Anyway, it seems that the Paladin kingdom is Elturgard.
Show
It is indeed Elturgard. The capital is Elturel, and Scornubel, Triel and Berdusk are cities within it. Iriaebor is still independent; a sidebar goes into detail, but the text mistakenly lists it as being a member. The very definite sidebar trumps a section of text that had to have just slipped past an editor. Elturel, and likely the nation, is ruled over by the High Observer of Torm, and the centrepiece of its military is an order of paladins. They are not all paladins of Torm, but they are all devoted to the nation.
Personally, I don't know how I feel about this. It's basically FR's answer to Eberron's Thrane, which is fine in and of itself. It's not as if the Realms are devoid of theocracies. That being said, the choice of patron god leaves me very uneasy. I would have no problems were it Amaunator, as this is exactly up his alley. Besides, much of 3E set up Lathander as heading down this path, and Lathander became Amaunator, so it would fit. Torm is very, very different.
I hope that those of you who are versed in Realmslore will bear with me because you already know what I'm about to say. This is for the benefit of those who are not. At one time, the city of Tantras was ruled as a theocracy in Torm's name. The regime was fantastically corrupt, and Torm purged it once he was shown the truth. This was during the Time of Troubles, which in meta terms was the event meant to explain the changes between 1E and 2E. Now, 2E and 3E each made a point of explicitly mentioning how heartsick Torm was over what happened in Tantras, and how he resolved to ensure that his followers never became that arrogant again.
With this being the case, it's deeply troubling to see the Loyal Fury take a step or two down this road now that he's a Greater God. It's out of his established character, and it takes a god (one of my favourites) and has partially twisted him into everything he once strived to avoid because he has seen where that road leads. I'm not saying that it isn't a valid way for him to go, but I don't like it. As I said, this fits Amaunator perfectly, but not Torm.
Personally, I don't know how I feel about this. It's basically FR's answer to Eberron's Thrane, which is fine in and of itself. It's not as if the Realms are devoid of theocracies. That being said, the choice of patron god leaves me very uneasy. I would have no problems were it Amaunator, as this is exactly up his alley. Besides, much of 3E set up Lathander as heading down this path, and Lathander became Amaunator, so it would fit. Torm is very, very different.
I hope that those of you who are versed in Realmslore will bear with me because you already know what I'm about to say. This is for the benefit of those who are not. At one time, the city of Tantras was ruled as a theocracy in Torm's name. The regime was fantastically corrupt, and Torm purged it once he was shown the truth. This was during the Time of Troubles, which in meta terms was the event meant to explain the changes between 1E and 2E. Now, 2E and 3E each made a point of explicitly mentioning how heartsick Torm was over what happened in Tantras, and how he resolved to ensure that his followers never became that arrogant again.
With this being the case, it's deeply troubling to see the Loyal Fury take a step or two down this road now that he's a Greater God. It's out of his established character, and it takes a god (one of my favourites) and has partially twisted him into everything he once strived to avoid because he has seen where that road leads. I'm not saying that it isn't a valid way for him to go, but I don't like it. As I said, this fits Amaunator perfectly, but not Torm.
As someone who got his FRCG early...ShowIt is indeed Elturgard. The capital is Elturel, and Scornubel, Triel and Berdusk are cities within it. The status of Iriaebor is unclear; the text lists it as a member, but there is a specific sidebar on the next page that contradicts that. Elturel, and likely the nation, is ruled over by the High Observer of Torm, and the centrepiece of its military is an order of paladins. They are not all paladins of Torm, but they are all devoted to the nation.
Personally, I don't know how I feel about this. It's basically FR's answer to Eberron's Thrane, which is fine in and of itself. It's not as if the Realms are devoid of theocracies. That being said, the choice of patron god leaves me very uneasy. I would have no problems were it Amaunator, as this is exactly up his alley. Besides, much of 3E set up Lathander as heading down this path, and Lathander became Amaunator, so it would fit. Torm is very, very different.
I hope that those of you who are versed in Realmslore will bear with me because you already know what I'm about to say. This is for the benefit of those who are not. At one time, the city of Tantras was ruled as a theocracy in Torm's name. The regime was fantastically corrupt, and Torm purged it once he was shown the truth. This was during the Time of Troubles, which in meta terms was the event meant to explain the changes between 1E and 2E. Now, 2E and 3E each made a point of explicitly mentioning how heartsick Torm was over what happened in Tantras, and how he resolved to ensure that his followers never became that arrogant again.
With this being the case, it's deeply troubling to see the Loyal Fury take a step or two down this road now that he's a Greater God. It's out of his established character, and it takes a god (one of my favourites) and has partially twisted him into everything he once strived to avoid because he has seen where that road leads. I'm not saying that it isn't a valid way for him to go, but I don't like it. As I said, this fits Amaunator perfectly, but not Torm.
-Interesting stuff. I'll add that to the Forgotten Realms 4e Changes thread.
In regards to the sidebar I mentioned, I would go with what that says. The sidebar is devoted to the subject in question, whereas the first section which it contradicts was likely just something that slipped by the editors. I have edited my entry to that effect.
They make my job way too easy. :P
Anyhow... ummm... thats not half-bad...
I can work with that...
I'm saving my full response for the eventual response thread come the official release date, but my feelings are, to say the least, mixed.
That being said, I would have preferred it to be one of Amaunator rather than of Torm.
It certainly would have made far more sense.
'Good' Paladins are like just so last edition, ya' know? ;)
Then again, I keep forgetting what edition we're in.
He's whatever friggin' alignment I want him to be. :D
(Well, actually, I'm not ditching the 9 alignments so he's really LN, but still...)
I've already said it several times before... There are several versions of that heresy, and most people get them confused or combine them into a single heresy. However, I look at things from Lathander's perspective. In the past he was a deity of youthfulness. His actions and attitudes were very naive, and though he came up with whacky plots that often went awry his heart was always in the right place.
However, like all children, Lathander has "grown up". He's shed his youthful idealism, to be replaced by cynicism and a battle-hardened exterior. His goals and motivations are the same, but the methods in which he approaches them are different. He still wants to bring about good and defeat evil, but being a cynic he knows that it will come at a price. Toward that end, he'd call for everyone to sacrifice all that they can in the name of the greater good - be it freedom, wealth, livelihood or their lives. He'd actively be trying to TRANSFORM Toril through attacking evil wherever it hides, fighting it to the very ends of Toril itself and beyond if he has too.
If you can envision a smite happy Paladin (3E Style), toss in a bit of Horus-Re and then you'll get my mental picture of the new "Amaunator".
Repent, turn away from evil, or be burned away by the blazing glory of the risen sun. ;)
Yes, I remember Tantras very well. This theocracy seems to go against the very grain of what was once my favourite deity. Perhaps Torm has lost his once profound humility in light of his acension to greater god status. This obsession with law, which although not too far flung from his original portfolio, sounds much like more Tyr (maybe he needed to fit his former master's mantle?). This remind's me very much of Pholtus' Theocracy of the Pale, with its obsession with law and order and its intolerance of other religions. I was originally so happy when Torm became a greater deity but his legacy of humility and kindness is being fast dashed by this latest news. It's a damn bloody shame...maybe I will like the new Lathander...sigh...
Torm’s Penance of Duty:
¤ Debt of Persecution: To repay the persecution of other religions, the true faithful must aid and respect all other goodly religions in reestablishing themselves.
¤ Debt of Dereliction: To atone for the abdication of duty to guard again strife, chaos, and destruction, the Tormtar are ordered to expend all possible efforts eliminate and oppose all efforts of the Undeads and the Orcs, as well as the evil mage orders (ex: Crimson Alliance).
¤ Debt of Destruction: Followers of Torm are obliged to relieve the destruction to the magic weave incurred during the creation of Trammel. All magic areas are to be reported and repaired. In addition, all permanent results of the magical chaos are to be similarly undone and all necromantic magic areas reported and eradicated
-I have always felt that 'Tormish' was a very bad adjective to be picked to denote Torm's followers, as it sounds too much like 'Turmish', the nation. 'Tormish'...'Turmish'...'Tormite' has always sounded better, in my ears. The 'Tormite' church...
-Anyway, it seems that the Paladin kingdom is Elturgard.
Torminators.
Short version: He's gone Hollywood (and yes, I am being serious).
Longer version: He has had a great deal of power (and the associated responsibility) thrust upon him at roughly the same time that he had lost most of his closest allies. Tyr: dead. Helm: dead. Ilmater: he's still around, but it isn't hard to imagine a distance between them; Torm would not have taken Ilmater's brief "defection" lightly, even if he has let him back onto Mount Celestia. Lathander: replaced by Amaunator. I think that last might be the key. If Torm isn't listening to Ilmater the way he once would have, he may well listen to Amaunator more than he normally would, and Amaunator would relish the task of guiding a relatively young and comparatively inexperienced deity in "properly" wielding the sort of power Torm now has.
Second, Torm's Theocracy might help to explain what happened to the Harpers in Berdusk, maybe his church didn't take kindly to a group of meddling individuals who might have opposed the church establishing a theocracy in the region.
I will never forget the threefold penance of Duty, even if you, my Lord Torm, have!
Is there any reason to believe that the rulership of Elturgard is corrupt the way the priesthood of Tantras was? Torm wasn't keen on the corruption. That doesn't mean he'd be against a theocracy. Besides...
¤ Debt of Persecution: To repay the persecution of other religions, the true faithful must aid and respect all other goodly religions in reestablishing themselves.
As was mentioned, the premiere Paladin order of the nation includes Paladins who worship other gods. Had Torm forgotten this, then that wouldn't be the case. They'd all be Paladins of Torm. That you have Paladins of other faiths devoting themselves to defending a theocratic nation which is dedicated to another god indicates something, and it isn't something negative. I won't get my copy til friday, though, so who knows what the deal is?
Torminators.
-That works.
Second, Torm's Theocracy might help to explain what happened to the Harpers in Berdusk, maybe his church didn't take kindly to a group of meddling individuals who might have opposed the church establishing a theocracy in the region.
-That is what I thought when I saw Berdusk in there.
18DELTA
-Greenknight this all your fault! :P
18DELTA
After reading the other thread, yep. Don't know exactly what the point of this is, now, other than to make me regret ever opening my trap. For one, I expected Tantras to be a theocracy. I wasn't expecting some new country popping out of nowhere. And to top it off, it's reminiscent of what was going on in the priesthood prior to the Time of Troubles? One would imagine that, if anyone would be eyeballing the situation to make sure it didn't get out of hand, it'd be Torm. Probably have a couple dozen Angels of Vengeance on hand and ready to go at the first glimmer of corruption. Ah well.
Is there any reason to believe that the rulership of Elturgard is corrupt the way the priesthood of Tantras was? Torm wasn't keen on the corruption. That doesn't mean he'd be against a theocracy. Besides...
As was mentioned, the premiere Paladin order of the nation includes Paladins who worship other gods. Had Torm forgotten this, then that wouldn't be the case. They'd all be Paladins of Torm. That you have Paladins of other faiths devoting themselves to defending a theocratic nation which is dedicated to another god indicates something, and it isn't something negative. I won't get my copy til friday, though, so who knows what the deal is?
Yes and no. There is no explicit mention of corruption, and the worship of certain other deities is apparently allowed. Amaunator is probably one of them; a second sun hovers over Elturel, but only the High Observer knows the truth behind it. Also, one of its major military forts was called Fort Morninglord. That being said, it's strongly hinted that the High Observer gets to decide which gods may be worshiped and which may not.
More to the point, self-righteousness is an enormous problem. Phrases like "those who are certain they walk the path of righteousness" (pg. 124), and "inflexible laws, inquisitorial persecution of evil, and bold plans for 'setting Faerûn aright'" (pg. 124) are used. Also, the paladins are described as having "their hearts hardened with their faith" (pg. 124).
In short, there's no evidence of the humility which was one of Torm's most defining traits. That level of self-righteousness is incredibly dangerous. There may be a minimum of corruption now, but all it would take is a just a little push, and...
Yes and no. There is no explicit mention of corruption, and the worship of certain other deities is apparently allowed. Amaunator is probably one of them; a second sun hovers over Elturel, but only the High Observer knows the truth behind it. Also, one of its major military forts was called Fort Morninglord. That being said, it's strongly hinted that the High Observer gets to decide which gods may be worshiped and which may not.
More to the point, self-righteousness is an enormous problem. Phrases like "those who are certain they walk the path of righteousness" (pg. 124), and "inflexible laws, inquisitorial persecution of evil, and bold plans for 'setting Faerûn aright'" (pg. 124) are used. Also, the paladins are described as having "their hearts hardened with their faith" (pg. 124).
In short, there's no evidence of the humility which was one of Torm's most defining traits. That level of self-righteousness is incredibly dangerous. There may be a minimum of corruption now, but all it would take is a just a little push, and...
-This was probably going to be Tyr's Kingdom, but GK gotta go and open his big mouth.
:P ;) I could see Tyr getting a**l re-tentive after killing Helm and knowing that he was tricked into it. :embarrass 18DELTA :P :P :P :P
Yes and no. There is no explicit mention of corruption, and the worship of certain other deities is apparently allowed. Amaunator is probably one of them; a second sun hovers over Elturel, but only the High Observer knows the truth behind it. Also, one of its major military forts was called Fort Morninglord. That being said, it's strongly hinted that the High Observer gets to decide which gods may be worshiped and which may not.
More to the point, self-righteousness is an enormous problem. Phrases like "those who are certain they walk the path of righteousness" (pg. 124), and "inflexible laws, inquisitorial persecution of evil, and bold plans for 'setting Faerûn aright'" (pg. 124) are used. Also, the paladins are described as having "their hearts hardened with their faith" (pg. 124).
In short, there's no evidence of the humility which was one of Torm's most defining traits. That level of self-righteousness is incredibly dangerous. There may be a minimum of corruption now, but all it would take is a just a little push, and...
Yes...sounds like false worship of Paladine...really...just like on Krynn in Ishtar...
Hmm...yes, where it the humility...? They have to come out with another book on the gods...
You got the bit where it says "In some quarters, Elturgard has garnered a reputation for being too righteous. Many problems attend its inflexible laws, inquisitorial persecution of evil, and bold plans for "setting Faerun aright"." Considering that the people saying this have a problem with the "persecution of evil", methinks their perspective may be a bit skewed. ;)
In short, there's no evidence of the humility which was one of Torm's most defining traits. That level of self-righteousness is incredibly dangerous. There may be a minimum of corruption now, but all it would take is a just a little push, and...
True, they are a bit self-righteous. But as it stands, now, it really isn't so bad. About the worst thing about them is they fine you when you swear, which just makes them out to be Mickey Mouse good.
18DELTA ;)
A Second Sun? So it's in Elturel that Amaunator probably resurrected?
18DELTA ;)
After reading it, it doesn't seem as bad as it first sounded.
You got the bit where it says "In some quarters, Elturgard has garnered a reputation for being too righteous. Many problems attend its inflexible laws, inquisitorial persecution of evil, and bold plans for "setting Faerun aright"." Considering that the people saying this have a problem with the "persecution of evil", methinks their perspective may be a bit skewed. ;)
The problem with "the inquisitorial persecution of evil" is that sooner or later "evil" will be defined as "everything that doesn't agree with everything we say." All sorts of things may be justified in the name of fighting evil, and they are often as bad or worse than that which they claim to hate.
True, they are a bit self-righteous. But as it stands, now, it really isn't so bad. About the worst thing about them is they fine you when you swear, which just makes them out to be Mickey Mouse good.
You may have missed the bit about the Dungeon of the Inquisitor. That's not something I can reconcile with any definition of good, and certainly not "Mickey Mouse." Granted, we don't know what sort of lawbreakers end up there. All the text says is "Those who trespass against the laws of Elturgard three times..." (pg. 125). We have to judge by what we're given, and that vagueness is very troubling.
-Thats like Utah being next to Nevada! :D
-That's never happen! :P
You may have missed the bit about the Dungeon of the Inquisitor. That's not something I can reconcile with any definition of good, and certainly not "Mickey Mouse."
-Well...It doesn't necessarily say anything about torture or anything, does it? Lock 'em up in the dungeon, but no torture. :P
The problem with "the inquisitorial persecution of evil" is that sooner or later "evil" will be defined as "everything that doesn't agree with everything we say." All sorts of things may be justified in the name of fighting evil, and they are often as bad or worse than that which they claim to hate.
Of course. Still, possibly going south isn't the same as having gone south. Elturgard, as it stands, isn't really a bad place. It could go bad, but it's not there at present.
I still feel that it should have went to Amaunator instead of Torm. >_>
-At least it's not a Sharran theocracy, right?
-At least it's not a Sharran theocracy, right?
-What a relief! ;) I think this country would be ripe for a DDI article by BRJ. :D
18DELTA
Anything but Cordell... we've had enough Headless Zhents, thank you very much.
Also, in that YouTube Video, Ed made mention of the fact that he'd be writting DDi articles - if thats the case, I might just be subscribing afterall! :D
-At least it's not a Sharran theocracy, right?
Yeah, I'm not even sure how'd that work. Although I guess you could claim that the Empire of Shade is a Sharran theocracy, though the Shades worshiping her at all is utterly ridiculous. The only way I'd accept this is if they were all heretics.
With their plans of conquest and what not, they've always seemed more adept to worship Bane to me.
It's hard being a Sharran while planning world domination considering that you really aren't all that focused on material things... since your goddess kind of wants to destroy it all... defeating the point.
Eh, anyway I digress.
I still feel that it should have went to Amaunator instead of Torm. >_>
Yeah, Amaunator would make more sense, especially since they've got that second sun there. If there was to be a Tormish theocracy, then it should've been centered around Tantras, rather than out in the Western Heartlands.
well, Elturel has a giant floating ball of light over it so there is perpetual daylight
-Lathander wants his magic back...
I swear I try and not think about how bad this could be... but it's kind of funny.
-Lathander wants his magic back...
It is called Amauntor's something or other
I always found the whole eternal daylight thing kinda silly. I mean, first of all it's a false sun, an illusion, right? I wonder if it has any effect on the surrounding area other than basically just being a "sun-like" structure in the sky giving off light. Like, for example, does it give off heat? If so, wouldn't that cause detrimental effects to plant life in the region? :P
I swear I try and not think about how bad this could be... but it's kind of funny.
-As a little excerpt in the books, and as a spell, it sounds cool. But, then when you think about the actual process of going about doing it, what it'd actually be like, and the actual consequences, it starts to make less and less sense.
More to the point, self-righteousness is an enormous problem. Phrases like "those who are certain they walk the path of righteousness" (pg. 124), and "inflexible laws, inquisitorial persecution of evil, and bold plans for 'setting Faerûn aright'" (pg. 124) are used. Also, the paladins are described as having "their hearts hardened with their faith" (pg. 124).
In short, there's no evidence of the humility which was one of Torm's most defining traits. That level of self-righteousness is incredibly dangerous. There may be a minimum of corruption now, but all it would take is a just a little push, and...
That sounds annoying. Oh well. I wouldn't use this realm anyway, since I already turned that area--in my version of the setting--into my own little realm.
The natives of Elturgard like to sing the theme for the Mickey Mouse Club while the natives of Amn like to sing Hey Big Spender.
In that case, I'll go with Amn.:P
-Well...It doesn't necessarily say anything about torture or anything, does it? Lock 'em up in the dungeon, but no torture. :P
And no food.:P
-Actually, they'll sleep better than everyone else in the city, not having to worry about perpetual daylight and all.