Centers of Worship - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Centers of Worship

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zousha_omenohu
Nov 09, 2008 23:58:58 An interesting thought crossed my mind recently. For all the cities in the Realms, we don't really have an indication of what cities hold prominent temples to different gods.

I thought of this when brainstorming future character concepts. One of them was a paladin of Kelemvor, and I when it came to deciding where he came from, I realized that I couldn't really think of one.

Are there places in the Realms that are generally thought of as a "center of worship" for a deity? Sort of like a Mecca or Canterbury for followers of a particular god.

I know that Neverwinter was generally considered a city that favored Sune greatly, and (if the computer games are to be believed) a center of Tyr worship. Also (again if the games are to be believed), Mulsantir in Rashemen has a rather prominent temple to Kelemvor, as well as a sort of shrine to the Triune Goddess (Chauntea, Mystra and Mielikki, if memory serves).

Are there any cities with prominent temples to Kelemvor? Amaunator? Corellon? Any other gods?
#2
Stigger
Nov 10, 2008 0:46:24 Best suggestion might be to look for the 2e Faiths and Avatars, Demihuman Deities, and Powers and Pantheons books, they all listed the major centers of worship, and could likely be extrapolated for almost any deity you might think of. 3e's Faiths and Pantheons also included much of the same information for some entries I think, although in a condensed format.
#3
zousha_omenohu
Nov 10, 2008 0:51:51 And if one doesn't have access to those books? The FRPG and FRCG are annoyingly tight-lipped about what gods are worshiped where.
#4
old_sage
Nov 10, 2008 1:01:05 Adam Blanchard's "Temples of the Realms" listing at Candlekeep will also prove useful. Note however, that I'm presently in the process of updating this listing with temples and other religious sites that have been referenced in the Realmslore since this listing was originally compiled.
#5
Stigger
Nov 10, 2008 1:33:04 That would have been the next suggestion... my major problem with it is I don't recall it mentioning if the temple was major or not, at least last time I looked at it... only thing I recall of the sort was perhaps a differentiation between shrines and temples, if that much.

As to not having those books, I'm pretty sure the three 2e books are available as $4 (or so) .pdf's at several different websites, so that could be an option for you.
#6
zousha_omenohu
Nov 10, 2008 1:38:14 From what the list shows, it looks like Kelemvor worship was most prominent in Calimport. Isn't that place run by elemental lords now?

Also, I'm not allowed to spend money over the internet. All online purchases have to be approved by my parents.
#7
Stigger
Nov 10, 2008 1:41:07 Ah, that would present a problem. As to Kelemvor in Calimshan, yes, largely due to the funereal practices of the Calishite nobility and upper class as I recall it. I seem to recall that Ormath (in the Shining Plains region unless I'm recalling the city by the wrong name) was one of their more important ones though for some reason... not even sure if that place still exists though.
#8
zousha_omenohu
Nov 10, 2008 1:53:22 And the character I had in mind was dragonborn. That's a whole 'nother can of worms. Most dragonborn are from Tymanther, right?
#9
JohnLynch
Nov 10, 2008 1:56:16
Most dragonborn are from Tymanther, right?

Right. Religion is a new concept in Tymanther so if you have a regular DM you can ask him. Otherwise just pick any city you want.
#10
Stigger
Nov 10, 2008 1:59:47 Couldn't speak to that point honestly, but I'm sure someone will be along to answer it soon enough. I suspect you're overthinking the issue a bit much really... the idea of 4e is to give enough details to play, but leave enough open so as to let the DM put what they need wherever they need it. With you're stated preferred method of playing, I suspect you'd probably be happier with a 2e/3e setting in terms of lore and its coverage, because 4e is going to leave a lot of your questions unanswered for quite a while, presuming the questions are answered at all. I can understand why that's not really an option for you, but that's another issue entirely.
#11
zousha_omenohu
Nov 10, 2008 2:02:39
Right. Religion is a new concept in Tymanther so if you have a regular DM you can ask him. Otherwise just pick any city you want.

A new concept?
#12
Stigger
Nov 10, 2008 2:06:58 From what little I recall, they were mostly an atheistic society, and didn't have clerics. I think there's an article about them somewhere, might look at the 4e links thread, suspect it was in Dragon though.

Might have been hallucinating that one though... could have sworn I saw one, but I didn't see one on the list anywhere.
#13
zousha_omenohu
Nov 10, 2008 2:10:30 I thought the article on dragonborn was about dragonborn in general.
#14
Stigger
Nov 10, 2008 2:13:10 Could be... not really familiar with 4e stuff though, so take what I say about it with a grain of sand.
#15
JohnLynch
Nov 10, 2008 3:40:40
A new concept?

Yup. While the gods have ruled on Toril, Abeir was the domain of the primordials. The primordials were promptly defeated by the dragons they used as mounts. Ever since the dragons have ruled Abeir (except for a few free cities).

The deities haven't had any presence in Abeir since it was created. As such the Tymanther dragonborn (who originally came from Abeir) were introduced to gods and goddesses when they came to Toril.
#16
zousha_omenohu
Nov 10, 2008 9:08:30 And how have they responded to that?
#17
JohnLynch
Nov 10, 2008 21:07:11
And how have they responded to that?

I don't have the FRPG handy so I can't really say. If I remember rightly worship of Bahamut is mainly going on, while there is some underground worship of a dragon/dragons.

But that's a really dodgy recollection.
#18
zousha_omenohu
Nov 11, 2008 7:34:15 Why would they worship Bahamut? He's a dragon god. Would they not consider both him and Tiamat as the epitome of all that they despise?
#19
sfdragon
Nov 11, 2008 12:05:31 the seldarine had a temple in waterdeep.

Aumanator has a temple in waterdeep.

mystra had a temple in waterdeep and in silverymoon.

oghma had a temple in neverwinter, dont know about now
#20
Nolwelen
Nov 11, 2008 13:24:10 Well I guess Amaunator has a center of worship in Elversult, since this was the place where Daelegoth Orndeir had been born. The son of the High Morninglord of the Tower of Morn, which was located in the town. He later became the greatest promoter of the "risen sun" heresy. Yes, to me the whole Amaunator thing is still a heresy uprising. Elversult is the site where Daelegoth performed a public miracle and as well where he cast his epic spell "Amaunator's eternal sun".

Marsember on the other hand was the place where the three most influential Morninglords gathered and came to the conclusion that Daelegoth's preachings were in fact heresy. Therefore I doubt it became a center of Amaunator worship. The three Morninglords in this gathering were from Waterdeep, Ordulin and Marsember.
#21
zousha_omenohu
Nov 11, 2008 14:30:21 But now the Risen Sun heresy has been vindicated as religious truth, correct?

That's part of my issue with my latest character. Being a drow, he has at least a century under his belt, meaning he would have been there when Lathander became Amaunator, and when it comes to religion, the 4e books are really vague. There's no discussion of how the church transitioned and whether the changes were accepted. For all we know there may still be pockets of conservative Lathander worshippers who believe that Lathander's transformation into Amaunator is a lie. The whole affair irritates me to no end because religion is my favorite thing in D&D.
#22
Nolwelen
Nov 11, 2008 15:52:43
But now the Risen Sun heresy has been vindicated as religious truth, correct?

No, at least not to me. From my point of view the Sunlords are just blasphemous heretics whose false religion should be purged from the surface of Toril.^^

.... meaning he would have been there when Lathander became Amaunator......

Lathander never became Amaunator. Amaunator died millenias ago and the so called ascention of this would-be god is just another scheme of Lathander's enemies.

For all we know there may still be pockets of conservative Lathander worshippers who believe that Lathander's transformation into Amaunator is a lie.

I guess my insisting proofs that believe. :D
#23
zousha_omenohu
Nov 11, 2008 16:03:19 I sense this is a bone of contention for you.
#24
Stigger
Nov 11, 2008 16:21:02 Is for me too... Lathander is/was a far more compelling deity than Amaunator ever was or will be. Should have kept him dead as far as I'm concerned.
#25
Nolwelen
Nov 12, 2008 5:27:37 This is why I am really anxious to have the rules for player organisations in the LFR campaign revealed. I think you can guess what player organisation I intend to start. ^^
#26
redglacier
Nov 12, 2008 5:29:27 Found It! (Faiths and Avatars, page 86):

The only major center of Kelemvorite worship thus far is the Tower of Skulls in Ormath, an abbey built as a ziggurat whose walls are carved with a stone facing in the shape of staring human skulls. Its spiral ways are roamed by mysterious guardian creatures that resemble will o’ wisps.[...]Vast cellars reaching down to an underground river for water and into caverns in which edible fungi are grown underlie the Tower. The priests make potent amber wine and various perfumes, unguents, and potions for sale from the fungi they raise.

Ormath is situated on the Shining Plains, which you can find south of the dragon coast on this map:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ag/20060607a

I don't know what happened to Ormath in 4e, but it seems to be either north of or smack-dab in the middle of a plagueland.
#27
Stigger
Nov 12, 2008 7:35:56 Hmm... good to know my memory is holding up some. :D
#28
rinonalyrna_fathomlin
Nov 12, 2008 14:59:54
But now the Risen Sun heresy has been vindicated as religious truth, correct?

Well, perhaps not. Just because Amaunator is back (and turned out to be Lathander) doesn't mean the Risen Sun "version" of the truth was all correct.
#29
Nolwelen
Nov 12, 2008 16:49:53
Well, perhaps not. Just because Amaunator is back (and turned out to be Lathander) doesn't mean the Risen Sun "version" of the truth was all correct.

Especially since it is all a lie. :D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zousha_omenohu Nov 09, 2008 23:58:58	An interesting thought crossed my mind recently. For all the cities in the Realms, we don't really have an indication of what cities hold prominent temples to different gods. I thought of this when brainstorming future character concepts. One of them was a paladin of Kelemvor, and I when it came to deciding where he came from, I realized that I couldn't really think of one. Are there places in the Realms that are generally thought of as a "center of worship" for a deity? Sort of like a Mecca or Canterbury for followers of a particular god. I know that Neverwinter was generally considered a city that favored Sune greatly, and (if the computer games are to be believed) a center of Tyr worship. Also (again if the games are to be believed), Mulsantir in Rashemen has a rather prominent temple to Kelemvor, as well as a sort of shrine to the Triune Goddess (Chauntea, Mystra and Mielikki, if memory serves). Are there any cities with prominent temples to Kelemvor? Amaunator? Corellon? Any other gods?
#2 Stigger Nov 10, 2008 0:46:24	Best suggestion might be to look for the 2e Faiths and Avatars, Demihuman Deities, and Powers and Pantheons books, they all listed the major centers of worship, and could likely be extrapolated for almost any deity you might think of. 3e's Faiths and Pantheons also included much of the same information for some entries I think, although in a condensed format.
#3 zousha_omenohu Nov 10, 2008 0:51:51	And if one doesn't have access to those books? The FRPG and FRCG are annoyingly tight-lipped about what gods are worshiped where.
#4 old_sage Nov 10, 2008 1:01:05	Adam Blanchard's "Temples of the Realms" listing at Candlekeep will also prove useful. Note however, that I'm presently in the process of updating this listing with temples and other religious sites that have been referenced in the Realmslore since this listing was originally compiled.
#5 Stigger Nov 10, 2008 1:33:04	That would have been the next suggestion... my major problem with it is I don't recall it mentioning if the temple was major or not, at least last time I looked at it... only thing I recall of the sort was perhaps a differentiation between shrines and temples, if that much. As to not having those books, I'm pretty sure the three 2e books are available as $4 (or so) .pdf's at several different websites, so that could be an option for you.
#6 zousha_omenohu Nov 10, 2008 1:38:14	From what the list shows, it looks like Kelemvor worship was most prominent in Calimport. Isn't that place run by elemental lords now? Also, I'm not allowed to spend money over the internet. All online purchases have to be approved by my parents.
#7 Stigger Nov 10, 2008 1:41:07	Ah, that would present a problem. As to Kelemvor in Calimshan, yes, largely due to the funereal practices of the Calishite nobility and upper class as I recall it. I seem to recall that Ormath (in the Shining Plains region unless I'm recalling the city by the wrong name) was one of their more important ones though for some reason... not even sure if that place still exists though.
#8 zousha_omenohu Nov 10, 2008 1:53:22	And the character I had in mind was dragonborn. That's a whole 'nother can of worms. Most dragonborn are from Tymanther, right?
#9 JohnLynch Nov 10, 2008 1:56:16	Most dragonborn are from Tymanther, right? Right. Religion is a new concept in Tymanther so if you have a regular DM you can ask him. Otherwise just pick any city you want.
#10 Stigger Nov 10, 2008 1:59:47	Couldn't speak to that point honestly, but I'm sure someone will be along to answer it soon enough. I suspect you're overthinking the issue a bit much really... the idea of 4e is to give enough details to play, but leave enough open so as to let the DM put what they need wherever they need it. With you're stated preferred method of playing, I suspect you'd probably be happier with a 2e/3e setting in terms of lore and its coverage, because 4e is going to leave a lot of your questions unanswered for quite a while, presuming the questions are answered at all. I can understand why that's not really an option for you, but that's another issue entirely.
#11 zousha_omenohu Nov 10, 2008 2:02:39	Right. Religion is a new concept in Tymanther so if you have a regular DM you can ask him. Otherwise just pick any city you want. A new concept?
#12 Stigger Nov 10, 2008 2:06:58	From what little I recall, they were mostly an atheistic society, and didn't have clerics. I think there's an article about them somewhere, might look at the 4e links thread, suspect it was in Dragon though. Might have been hallucinating that one though... could have sworn I saw one, but I didn't see one on the list anywhere.
#13 zousha_omenohu Nov 10, 2008 2:10:30	I thought the article on dragonborn was about dragonborn in general.
#14 Stigger Nov 10, 2008 2:13:10	Could be... not really familiar with 4e stuff though, so take what I say about it with a grain of sand.
#15 JohnLynch Nov 10, 2008 3:40:40	A new concept? Yup. While the gods have ruled on Toril, Abeir was the domain of the primordials. The primordials were promptly defeated by the dragons they used as mounts. Ever since the dragons have ruled Abeir (except for a few free cities). The deities haven't had any presence in Abeir since it was created. As such the Tymanther dragonborn (who originally came from Abeir) were introduced to gods and goddesses when they came to Toril.
#16 zousha_omenohu Nov 10, 2008 9:08:30	And how have they responded to that?
#17 JohnLynch Nov 10, 2008 21:07:11	And how have they responded to that? I don't have the FRPG handy so I can't really say. If I remember rightly worship of Bahamut is mainly going on, while there is some underground worship of a dragon/dragons. But that's a really dodgy recollection.
#18 zousha_omenohu Nov 11, 2008 7:34:15	Why would they worship Bahamut? He's a dragon god. Would they not consider both him and Tiamat as the epitome of all that they despise?
#19 sfdragon Nov 11, 2008 12:05:31	the seldarine had a temple in waterdeep. Aumanator has a temple in waterdeep. mystra had a temple in waterdeep and in silverymoon. oghma had a temple in neverwinter, dont know about now
#20 Nolwelen Nov 11, 2008 13:24:10	Well I guess Amaunator has a center of worship in Elversult, since this was the place where Daelegoth Orndeir had been born. The son of the High Morninglord of the Tower of Morn, which was located in the town. He later became the greatest promoter of the "risen sun" heresy. Yes, to me the whole Amaunator thing is still a heresy uprising. Elversult is the site where Daelegoth performed a public miracle and as well where he cast his epic spell "Amaunator's eternal sun". Marsember on the other hand was the place where the three most influential Morninglords gathered and came to the conclusion that Daelegoth's preachings were in fact heresy. Therefore I doubt it became a center of Amaunator worship. The three Morninglords in this gathering were from Waterdeep, Ordulin and Marsember.
#21 zousha_omenohu Nov 11, 2008 14:30:21	But now the Risen Sun heresy has been vindicated as religious truth, correct? That's part of my issue with my latest character. Being a drow, he has at least a century under his belt, meaning he would have been there when Lathander became Amaunator, and when it comes to religion, the 4e books are really vague. There's no discussion of how the church transitioned and whether the changes were accepted. For all we know there may still be pockets of conservative Lathander worshippers who believe that Lathander's transformation into Amaunator is a lie. The whole affair irritates me to no end because religion is my favorite thing in D&D.
#22 Nolwelen Nov 11, 2008 15:52:43	But now the Risen Sun heresy has been vindicated as religious truth, correct? No, at least not to me. From my point of view the Sunlords are just blasphemous heretics whose false religion should be purged from the surface of Toril.^^ .... meaning he would have been there when Lathander became Amaunator...... Lathander never became Amaunator. Amaunator died millenias ago and the so called ascention of this would-be god is just another scheme of Lathander's enemies. For all we know there may still be pockets of conservative Lathander worshippers who believe that Lathander's transformation into Amaunator is a lie. I guess my insisting proofs that believe. :D
#23 zousha_omenohu Nov 11, 2008 16:03:19	I sense this is a bone of contention for you.
#24 Stigger Nov 11, 2008 16:21:02	Is for me too... Lathander is/was a far more compelling deity than Amaunator ever was or will be. Should have kept him dead as far as I'm concerned.
#25 Nolwelen Nov 12, 2008 5:27:37	This is why I am really anxious to have the rules for player organisations in the LFR campaign revealed. I think you can guess what player organisation I intend to start. ^^
#26 redglacier Nov 12, 2008 5:29:27	Found It! (Faiths and Avatars, page 86): The only major center of Kelemvorite worship thus far is the Tower of Skulls in Ormath, an abbey built as a ziggurat whose walls are carved with a stone facing in the shape of staring human skulls. Its spiral ways are roamed by mysterious guardian creatures that resemble will o’ wisps.[...]Vast cellars reaching down to an underground river for water and into caverns in which edible fungi are grown underlie the Tower. The priests make potent amber wine and various perfumes, unguents, and potions for sale from the fungi they raise. Ormath is situated on the Shining Plains, which you can find south of the dragon coast on this map: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ag/20060607a I don't know what happened to Ormath in 4e, but it seems to be either north of or smack-dab in the middle of a plagueland.
#27 Stigger Nov 12, 2008 7:35:56	Hmm... good to know my memory is holding up some. :D
#28 rinonalyrna_fathomlin Nov 12, 2008 14:59:54	But now the Risen Sun heresy has been vindicated as religious truth, correct? Well, perhaps not. Just because Amaunator is back (and turned out to be Lathander) doesn't mean the Risen Sun "version" of the truth was all correct.
#29 Nolwelen Nov 12, 2008 16:49:53	Well, perhaps not. Just because Amaunator is back (and turned out to be Lathander) doesn't mean the Risen Sun "version" of the truth was all correct. Especially since it is all a lie. :D