My question is this - is there any more information about this hypothetical culture anywhere else? If not, has there been any speculation about it? I'm thinking of using it, and some of Gray Richardson's ideas of old, as the basis of the campaign, so I'm curious how much canon or fanon there is to rely on. Help me!
My question is this - is there any more information about this hypothetical culture anywhere else? If not, has there been any speculation about it?
I'm sure there's been speculation, but IIRC there's no additional canon information on it anywhere.
Helping...Hmmmn...given that there was no spread, one might speculate it was built as an outpost of a human civilization from somewhere other than Faerun. Otherwise one would imagine a wider civilization based around it, not just one long fortress.
If that doesn't suit your needs, it's also easy to imagine that humans who had formerly had contact with the civilizations of the creator-races weren't all slope-headed morons simply because they lacked pointed ears, and thus also had some civilized skillz, building a string of fortresses et al (the Citadel) before succumbing to whatever you'd like to imagine killed them off.
18DELTA
I'm sure there's been speculation, but IIRC there's no additional canon information on it anywhere.
curses!
Helping...Hmmmn...given that there was no spread, one might speculate it was built as an outpost of a human civilization from somewhere other than Faerun. Otherwise one would imagine a wider civilization based around it, not just one long fortress.
True. Although the Citadel could be the only settlement that survived. If the civilization was based further south, around the Moonsea, elvish and human settlement (and dragon rages, humanoid invasions, etc) would probably have built over or torn down any ruins long ago.
Maybe the Citadel was built as the northern bastion of this Moonsea Culture? I like that idea, not least because it gives me potential campaign hooks.
If that doesn't suit your needs, it's also easy to imagine that humans who had formerly had contact with the civilizations of the creator-races weren't all slope-headed morons simply because they lacked pointed ears, and thus also had some civilized skillz, building a string of fortresses et al (the Citadel) before succumbing to whatever you'd like to imagine killed them off.
This I like, a lot. It gives the society a bit of an Atlantean feel, and establishes some human street cred in terms of the ancient races.
As for the culprit, Moander is a local scapegoat (and I've used him as the villain in another prehistoric Faerun game, too) if I go with the Moonsea Culture, which I think I will.
-I know MarkusTay63 was speculating on this in the 10 lost gods of the yuirwood thread a couple of weeks ago. You may want to look that thread up. It might help or give you some ideas to run with. :D
Cool, good stuff there! Thanks for the head's up. I think I'll take some of that thread's ideas for a Yuir Pantheon, fold them in with a few deities like Selune, Chauntea and Amaunator, and create a pantheon for - this society will need a name, won't it? (Gilliaad, maybe, in honor of Stephen King's Gilead...)
Glad I could help. Also their was a thread awhile back disscussing how the area got it's name The Moonsea(Moon-Sea). The Citadel could be a ruin from when the event happend that formed the Sea. 
18DELTA
You might tie this into the tidbits mentioned in the old Ruins of Adventure module, which hint at some unknown history and locales in this region. However these probably date to long after this time, to when the humans were the current horse barbarians, or previously petty kingdoms.
"Ten days ride north of the Varm is a barren and dead country called the Lee-wai, land-in-pain or land-of-caused-pain. Further to the south this place is know as the Torture Land. It is said to be an evil place, shunned by the Riders. They speak little of this land but yearly during Ches they make a trip into its heart. Their they go to adorate the spirit of a glowing. spring. This they have done for ages and so shall they do for years to come."
"At this time their ruling the Twisted Ones was a powerful general named
Tyranthraxus. He strode before his armies cloaked in flame and led the Riders out of the waste. At his hand the kingdom of Barze was conquered. Turning south he led his army to conquer the Horreb and the Vane. Tyranthraxus was a cruel man and leveled all that he had taken, murdering the princes of these lands. But the flame that surrounded him consumed him, destroying his body. Freed of its shell, it flew among the men of his army, lighting on each and claiming it. It was then when Baron Schodt imprisoned Tyranthraxus in a vial
of water which shone like the light of day. This he sank in the watery depths of Lake Longreach, defeating the armies Tyranthraxus had raised."
Most histories of the region seem to start with the ogre kingdoms of Thar however.
The history of Ironfang Keep, here:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drrl/20071107a
Would seem to imply that the Citadel Of The Raven should also be a giantish fortress.
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Do you have a link to that thread, by chance? My search-fu is failing me.
-18000 DR. That's well before even Imaskar got started, and around the time the elves were spreading.
You might tie this into the tidbits mentioned in the old Ruins of Adventure module, which hint at some unknown history and locales in this region. However these probably date to long after this time, to when the humans were the current horse barbarians, or previously petty kingdoms.
Yeah, that story seems to be considerably later than what I'm after. :/
However, the history of Ironfang Keep, here:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drrl/20071107a
Would seem to imply that the Citadel Of The Raven should also be a giantish fortress.
Giant propaganda! That's my story and I'm sticking to it :D
-I know MarkusTay63 was speculating on this in the 10 lost gods of the yuirwood thread a couple of weeks ago. You may want to look that thread up. It might help or give you some ideas to run with. :D
18DELTA
-That was of the Talfiric Pantheon, and the Talfiric People, that we were coming to a dead-end investigating.
... Resuming Lurker status...
Much of the proto-history of the Realms remains undetailed despite the progress made with GHotR. The Moonsea and the Dalelands (for all the supposed products devoted to them) have never been fleshed out historically and are unlikely ever to be unless some devoted fan comes up with something all-encompassing.
Having done some of that over the years, I know just how much work and time is involved.
-- George Krashos
I've postulated, privately, that the humans who built the Citadel of the Raven were the descendants of dragon-ruled humans who had been cut adrift after the fall of their dragon masters in the first Rage of Dragons. I've also posited that there were giant influences in their culture (perhaps they allied with storm giants in their battle to overthrow dragon overlords) and that their demise came about due to internal dissension (we humans are all too human) and the rise of humanoid populations (goblinkin and ogres) in the Tortured Lands and Thar which had previously been kept low by the dragons. Their descendants are the barbarians of the Ride and (this is my personal view) also the barbarians of Netheril (Angardt and Rengarth tribes).
I must be on to something, then, because my half-done write-up is pretty much along those lines (minus the giant influence - I have elves influencing them instead, with the proximity of Cormanthor - and the bit about their descendents).
I may have to either fiddle with the dates of the Citadel's construction, or have the dragon ruler survive long after the Dragon Rages start, because I'm picturing a nation that, having mysteriously lost its gold dragon queen and her brood a century ago, is finally beginning to crack. The dragonblooded ruling class is becoming more and more human as the generations go by, which undermines their 'divine' authority and leads to infighting among the noble houses, while goblinoid hordes press on the northeast frontier, turning a rich forest into the Thar of modern Faerun.
Over the years, these Half-giants would have bred with true Ogres, giving them the more barbaric culture they have today.
Nothing canon... just following a train of thought...
re-resuming Lurker status...
Before determining that elves in the Cormanthor Forest were an influence you might want to double check on the dates of the Citadel of the Raven. The first elven realm to appear in the Forest of Cormanthor (formerly called Arcorar) was the Elven Court and that didn't exist till about -10,000 DR and after the banishment of the drow. Though I could be wrong. I'm not certain where some of the First Flowering and Crown War era Realms were.
-The Elves lived in the region for a lot longer than starting in -10,000 DR. Aryvandaar was roughly in the area, and that dates back a lot further than -10,000 DR.
Aryvanadaar was on the other side of Anauroch (which was a fertile basin at the time).
Shantel Othreir would have been quite a bit closer (its eastern-most reaches bordering the modern-day Tunlands, and is where the Battle of God's Theatre took place).
The Sea Elves were physically closer, having migrated to the Inner Sea around -17000 DR, but I doubt they could have effected any surface civilizations at that time.
The earliest canon mention of Elves in Cormanthor is the early realm of Ilodhar, centered around Lake Miir (which used to be in the Lost Vale, where the Saurials now live), and that was in -10,750... some 7000+ years after the Citadel of the Raven was built.
Your best bet would be to connect it to the Draconic Kingdoms that were toppled by the Elves, and which also included Elves as their citizenry.
Theorestically you could come up with a Last Giant Kingdom of the north, that fell in conflict with a Dragon Kingdom in the area (The legendary Purple Dragon?), and the Dragon itself was so weakened by crushing the Giant Kingdom that it's own kingdom fell soon after.
the Citadel of the Raven could have been a Giant Fortification, that was later taken and used by the Dragon King's human minions, until he, too, fell.
Roughly?
-Roughly, yes. Aryvandaar was centered in the High Forest, and stretched north, south, east, and west. How far (in any direction, but specifically, in this case, east) it stretched, we don't have exact measurements. That would make it a neighbor of Cormanthor and "roughly in the area", however.
I'm not picturing a powerful elvish kingdom in Cormanthor at this time, just a scattering of green elf settlements. One almost entirely non-canon state is enough for my purposes here.
Even so, the elves' presence has some small influence on Giliaad, especially its southern villages (south of the Tesh). The dragons are still the overwhelming factor in shaping Giliaad's culture, though.
Capital: Valiaar
Population: 1,500,000
Government: Monarchy
Religions: Amaunator, Auril, Bahamut, Herne, Inaraserra, Jannath, Leraje, Selune, Vanathor
Imports: Iron, ivory, spices
Exports: Cloth, food, metalwork
Alignment: LG, LN, NG
Originally the domain of the golden dragon Inaraserra, the kingdom of Giliaad is now an independent human realm, one of the few in all Toril. It lies poised between the wild goblins and giants of the north and the distrustful green elves of Cormanthor. For centuries out of mind, the humans of Giliaad worshipped Bahamut and a host of other good deities, and lived simple lives as servants of Inaraserra and her brood, but all that changed a century ago when Inaraserra and her seven children disappeared without explanation.
Today, the realm is beset both within and without by many foes - goblins and ogres from the northern wastes, greedy nobles seeking to increase their own power at the expense of the people, sinister cults worshipping dark powers and the ancient threat of the aquatic beasts of the Moonsea. Giliaad is threatened as never before, and heroes are needed more than ever.
Life and Society
Even after centuries under the wise guidance of (mostly) enlightened wizard-kings, Giliaad is a largely rustic and timeless land. Nine in ten of its people live along the Iella River [mod. River Tesh]. Aside from scattered woodlands, and the mountainous frontiers, most of Giliaad is gentle hill country covered with farms and pasture. Unlike in other, less civilized human lands, where the people live a hunter-gatherer lifestyle, the inhabitants of Giliaad make their living from agriculture and trade, a legacy of the days of the dragons.
There are really two cultures inside Giliaad - the rural and the urban. Rural folk, especially in the western mountains, are little different than their ancestors from before the arrival of the dragons. They worship ancient deities of nature and the cosmos (such as Selune and Amaunator) and live simple, rustic lives. The cities, on the other hand, are glittering places lorded over by those who at least claim to be descended from Inaraserra and her children (little to show for such claims, although they were never disputed by the Golden Queen before her disappearance).
Major Geographical Features
Cormanthor: this green elf realm, not part of Giliaad but definitely closely involved with its affairs, is sparsely populated, but defended by powerful magic, divine and arcane alike, that destroys any who dare encroach on its borders. Tavern tales say it is riddled with portals to distant elf kingdoms and even the planes of Arvandor and Faerie.
Goldscale Forest [mod. Thar]: a dark forest violently contested between woodland tribes and ogre hordes. Ogre shamans are gradually blighting the land, and already the northwestern reaches are grim marshes instead of the verdant woods they once were.
Mountains of Song [mod. Desertsmouth Mountains]: the western frontier of Giliaad, and home to hundreds of small, reclusive clanholds and hamlets. The folk of the Mountains of Song cling to the old ways and gods and have little concern for the affairs of the kingdom. On some nights of the year, the mountainfolk gather around the ancient menhirs and worship as they have for countless thousands of years.
The Wilderlands [mod. The Ride]: A grey steppe ruled by a hundred squabbling tribes of ogres and goblins. Of late, rumors have unsettled Giliaad, rumors which claim some powerful warlord is butchering his rivals and uniting many of the stronger tribes into a great army of humanoids.
Important Sites
Citadel of the Golden Dragon [mod. Citadel of the Raven]: An enormous complex of citadels and watchtowers stretching more than ten miles, the Citadel of the Golden Dragon is the western lynchpin of Giliaad's fortified border in the Dragonspire Mountains. Over the past century, the Citadel has beaten back no less than eight ogre and goblin invasions, including one massive assault six years ago that seized many of the outer forts and was only defeated at the cost of thousands of lives. Today, it is the launching point for many raids into the wilderlands and also the base for a plan to establish fortified towns north of the mountains to splinter the humanoid tribes and prevent further hordes. Farther east, the sister fortress, the Citadel of the Radiant Flame, is much the same, but on a somewhat less grand scale.
Tuathadaan [mod. Yulash]: This southern outpost of Giliaad is named after Inaraserra's mate, a fierce and brave dragon who died protecting the fledgling settlement from an ancient black dragon not long after the Golden Queen first claimed stewardship over Giliaad. Today, Tuathadaan is strongly independent-minded despite being less than a day's ride from Valiaar and the Iella heartland. It is more strongly influenced by elvish culture than draconic, which makes it suspect in the eyes of orthodox Giliaadans; so too does the fact that many of the local noble families do not even pretend to draconic ancestry.
Valiaar: the capital city of Giliaad, this gleaming city sits on the shores of the Moonsea south of the Iella River. It is home to almost 100,000 people - mainly humans, but a few half-elves and elves can also be found, as well as a somewhat larger community of gnomes. What little sea-trade crosses the Moonsea is dominated by Valiaar's merchants, who also control river traffic all the way to Wyvern Drop [mod. Dagger Falls].
Regional History
The area that forms Giliaad was first settled by humans at least ten thousand years ago. Little is known of those ancients, a people all but unknown to the dragons and giants who dominated the age. The most ancient menhirs in the western mountains bear symbols of sun and moon, indicating they worshipped Selune and Amaunator, but little else can be said of them.
Long afterwards, but still thousands of years ago, the golden dragon Inaraserra made her lair in the Dragonspire Mountains. Already ancient by then, Inaraserra soon took notice of her human neighbors, took notice of and took pity on. Along with her mate and children, Inaraserra shapeshifted into human form and began to guide the scattered tribes of the region, teaching them the arts of agriculture, alchemy, magic and medicine. As centuries passed, Inaraserra's children took human lovers and draconic blood became the mark of leadership (under the distant but watchful eyes of the dragons themselves) of the tribes of Giliaad, just as it is today.
The Golden Age lasted thousands of years, changeless years where the dragons guided their noble offspring, who in turn ruled over their human subjects. The wars and concerns of the wider world were kept at bay by the might of Inaraserra (and, it must be said, the elves of Cormanthor), and Giliaad prospered. As the centuries passed, the people of Giliaad adopted more than a few attitudes from their kindly overlords - not least the worship of Bahamut, god of all good dragons. Few dreamt things would ever change - were not Inaraserra and her family sent from on high to protect Giliaad?
A century ago, the undreamt change happened. Giliaad awoke one bright spring day to find that Inaraserra and her brood were gone - vanished without a word and without an explanation. The vast lair beneath the Dragonspire Mountains was empty and, so far as could be determined, not a single coin or scroll was missing from the enormous horde. Some suspected foul play, others that Inaraserra and her children had been raised to divine rank by Bahamut. Whatever the truth, they were gone, leaving the noble houses to rule. After some brief but bitter struggles, one clan emerged victorious and its leader, Rilaan, named himself King-in-Her-Absence.
Rilaan reigned for forty years; since then, no fewer than eight kings have held the Dragon Throne (three in the last fifteen years). The common folk of Giliaad are increasingly disenchanted with the ruling class, dragon-blood or not. Most nobles seem more interested in increasing their own power than preserving the kingdom, which is under threat more than ever as goblin hordes press on the northern frontier and sinister cults appear in the cities and countryside alike. Few expect that young King Duraanasaar, rumored to be a drunkard and hedonist, can turn things around.
Plots and Rumors
A land beset with so many perils has no shortage of causes and conspiracies to attract adventurers. Those willing to help turn back a goblin raiding party or end the depredations of a beast cult will earn the respect, and the coin, of the people of Giliaad.
Death of the Dragons?: The greatest mystery of the realm is, of course, what happened to Inaraserra and her offspring? No one knows, or if they do, they aren't saying. Many commoners think the royal house is lying when it claims ignorance of the matter - the most popular theory is that Inaraserra abandoned them out of disgust with their increasing pettiness and lack of honor. Others say that Inaraserra and her brood were slain by some great foe behind all Giliaad's recent woes, while still others believe Inaraserra has ascended to divinity and taken her children along to the outer planes.
The Mark of the Bear: Toila Yuraanvaar is the young heiress to an ancient noble house, one that claims descent from Inaraserra's third son and a priest of Bahamut. The Yuraanvaars are one of the more popular noble families, but their reputation has suffered of late. The cause is the appearance of a black bear's paw on the doorway of their city estate. The mark, which magically appears every midnight, no matter what preventative spells are cast, is an ancient symbol of one of the cults of Malar the Beast-Lord, a cult destroyed by the Yuraanvaars long ago. Is it a sign of the ancient cult resurfacing, or the scare tactics of a rival noble house?
Future Fate
Gilaad survives Duraanasaar's incompetent reign, but the pressures splintering the kingdom are too great and, within two centuries, the realm collapses into a dozen warring city-states. And then it vanishes entirely from history - even the elves of Cormanthor cannot say what befell Giliaad in its final twilight. The Citadel of the Golden Dragon, believed to be the last refuge of the remants of the royal house, endures long after Giliaad is just a memory. Later sages speculate that the survivors of Giliaad's human population drifted to the four winds and some may settled in Netheril long before its rise to glory. Aside from that, there is no known legacy of the realm of the Golden Queen...
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Whaddaya think, sirs?
