Cleric of a dead deity: 4th edition - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Cleric of a dead deity: 4th edition

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
RUMPLESTIX
Nov 19, 2008 20:14:56 I believe I remember it being discussed that as long as one could find a living practitioner to do the consecrating (or whatever...), that one could be a 4th edition cleric or paladin of a dead deity in the FR.

Was official word of any kind ever received?

Anyone?
#2
lord_karsus
Nov 20, 2008 13:34:37 -Regardless of if 4e has the mechanics to support it or not, the setting has precidence of being being able to worship deities who had died, and still receive spells (a la Servant of the Fallen), so in the setting, yes, someone can worship a dead deity and still receive spells and such.
#3
RUMPLESTIX
Nov 20, 2008 16:13:42 That works for me. Thanks. I think I will decide to let it also work with 4th ed. paladins although they did not qualify for servant of the fallen.
#4
lord_karsus
Nov 20, 2008 18:37:58 -Did I ever mention how I don't like at all the Servant of the Fallen feat? Takes the whole "caring if a deity is alive or dead" out of things.
#5
Mr_Miscellany
Nov 20, 2008 21:41:42 Looks like the designers were thinking the same as you, Lord Karsus.

I believe I remember it being discussed that as long as one could find a living practitioner to do the consecrating (or whatever...), that one could be a 4th edition cleric or paladin of a dead deity in the FR.

Was official word of any kind ever received?

The official word is just as you described.

Per the Players Handbook, “As a cleric, your deity does not directly grant you powers. Instead, your ordination or investiture as a cleric grants you the ability to wield divine powers.”

Per that tome, either a cleric or a deity can ordain a worthy worshipper to make them into a cleric. Also, clerics can follow one deity, several deities (such as the Triad) or even just philosophies.

Thus it follows that a character could worship a dead deity and the tenets of that deity's fallen faith, so long as they are ordained by an existing cleric or deity.

I couldn’t find anything in the FRCG or the FRPG that modifies or alters these game rules, so the text from the cleric class description in the Player’s Handbook should be taken to stand in the Realms.
#6
davesaunders
Nov 20, 2008 22:59:35 That doesnt make a lot of sense. If the god/goddess is dead who is giving them powers? I thought the FR worked different because you couldnt worship things like nature or whatever and have spells.
#7
Stigger
Nov 21, 2008 1:45:39 Was that way with the Weave... with its destruction, nothing really says you can't beyond conventions of previous editions, many of which were blown away with 4e. I'd say do whatever makes sense for your own campaign so long as the DM and players are cool with it.
#8
lord_karsus
Nov 21, 2008 10:23:40
That doesnt make a lot of sense. If the god/goddess is dead who is giving them powers? I thought the FR worked different because you couldnt worship things like nature or whatever and have spells.

-That's the major problem *I* had with Servant of the Fallen.
#9
Mr_Miscellany
Nov 21, 2008 21:05:18 I think there's room for DMs to write in fluff or an easy "this is why" explanation.

The simplest is that belief alone fuels access to magical power. Belief then shapes that power in ways that are divinely themed (thus, the powers list in the Cleric class description).

A more involved explanation might be that the very first clerics post-Spellplague were ordained by the deities directly, after those deities got a handle (literally) on their divine realms and came to realize Mystra was no more.

The gods were very likely the first to "figure out" how magic worked after her death, then imparted in their most devout followers the ability to access magic again (as well as the ability to extend this gift to others who were worthy) without frying themselves to a crisp in the process (something very possible if one tried to access magic without using the Weave/Shadow Weave as an interface).

From an adventure standpoint: This implies that if one were to kill the high priest of a specific faith (perhaps as part of a magical ritual or with a unique magic item), the high priest's death might serve to unravel the ability of all other clerics to use magic who are of the same ordained ancestry that the high priest started.

This would be like killing off an ancestor and extinguishing an entire branch of a family tree.

From a mechanics point of view, we know in previous editions of the game that a DM could prevent a Cleric from accessing their divine powers if -in the DM's judgement- the player character strayed from the faith. In my opinion, this is why WotC changed things.

Since the Weave is gone, there is no Mystra to censure or prevent clerics and other divine spellcasters from casting. This seems to fit WotC's design imperitive of "streamline everything" because DMs don't have to closely watch and judge the PC Cleric's actions.

Note the Player's Handbook does warn players not to stray far from their faiths.
#10
Stigger
Nov 22, 2008 1:44:37
From an adventure standpoint: This implies that if one were to kill the high priest of a specific faith (perhaps as part of a magical ritual or with a unique magic item), the high priest's death might serve to unravel the ability of all other clerics to use magic who are of the same ordained ancestry that the high priest started.

This would be like killing off an ancestor and extinguishing an entire branch of a family tree.

Now that... is a very interesting idea to me.

From a mechanics point of view, we know in previous editions of the game that a DM could prevent a Cleric from accessing their divine powers if -in the DM's judgement- the player character strayed from the faith. In my opinion, this is why WotC changed things.

Since the Weave is gone, there is no Mystra to censure or prevent clerics and other divine spellcasters from casting. This seems to fit WotC's design imperitive of "streamline everything" because DMs don't have to closely watch and judge the PC Cleric's actions.

Note the Player's Handbook does warn players not to stray far from their faiths.

I agree that this is why WotC changed things, but I'm not sure if it was to relieve the DM of burden, or to attempt to strip them of the ability to easily censure PCs, rightly or wrongly... or maybe both. Can't quite decide how to look at that idea, though I'm fairly certain I don't agree with it from a philosophical point of view, since it would point towards deities not really caring what their clerics are actually doing in my mind. Fine line perhaps, but from what I know of anecdotal evidence (lowest form of, but...), I could see why WotC would do either, or both.
#11
pamela
Nov 22, 2008 4:10:28 If the temple or cult excommunicates a cleric or paladin, would that character then lose his powers?
#12
RUMPLESTIX
Nov 22, 2008 8:07:51
If the temple or cult excommunicates a cleric or paladin, would that character then lose his powers?

As I understand it, no.
I do not know of anything written specifically mentioning that it can be done. Also, I believe they left these things vague so that heresies could still develop as long as they did not stray so far from the deities proscribed dogma that it would send an angel of some sort or other to set things straight.
If excommunication could strip powers, it would put a serious clamp on heresies and intrafaith rivalry development. My belief was that they wished to leave the former open and encourage the latter. At least, that is the 'feel' I get when I read the PHB descriptions.
#13
lord_karsus
Nov 22, 2008 11:19:46 -Agreed. At best, the sources allude to the deities themselves sending servitors to stop heretics and excommunicated fellows and such, but not actually stopping them from operating as normal, power and all. Which is ludacris to me. Even if the covenant between the deity and servitor (in him/her getting anointed priest/paladin/whatever else) is the new source of the servitors power, the deity is still one part of that equation.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 RUMPLESTIX Nov 19, 2008 20:14:56	I believe I remember it being discussed that as long as one could find a living practitioner to do the consecrating (or whatever...), that one could be a 4th edition cleric or paladin of a dead deity in the FR. Was official word of any kind ever received? Anyone?
#2 lord_karsus Nov 20, 2008 13:34:37	-Regardless of if 4e has the mechanics to support it or not, the setting has precidence of being being able to worship deities who had died, and still receive spells (a la Servant of the Fallen), so in the setting, yes, someone can worship a dead deity and still receive spells and such.
#3 RUMPLESTIX Nov 20, 2008 16:13:42	That works for me. Thanks. I think I will decide to let it also work with 4th ed. paladins although they did not qualify for servant of the fallen.
#4 lord_karsus Nov 20, 2008 18:37:58	-Did I ever mention how I don't like at all the Servant of the Fallen feat? Takes the whole "caring if a deity is alive or dead" out of things.
#5 Mr_Miscellany Nov 20, 2008 21:41:42	Looks like the designers were thinking the same as you, Lord Karsus. I believe I remember it being discussed that as long as one could find a living practitioner to do the consecrating (or whatever...), that one could be a 4th edition cleric or paladin of a dead deity in the FR. Was official word of any kind ever received? The official word is just as you described. Per the Players Handbook, “As a cleric, your deity does not directly grant you powers. Instead, your ordination or investiture as a cleric grants you the ability to wield divine powers.” Per that tome, either a cleric or a deity can ordain a worthy worshipper to make them into a cleric. Also, clerics can follow one deity, several deities (such as the Triad) or even just philosophies. Thus it follows that a character could worship a dead deity and the tenets of that deity's fallen faith, so long as they are ordained by an existing cleric or deity. I couldn’t find anything in the FRCG or the FRPG that modifies or alters these game rules, so the text from the cleric class description in the Player’s Handbook should be taken to stand in the Realms.
#6 davesaunders Nov 20, 2008 22:59:35	That doesnt make a lot of sense. If the god/goddess is dead who is giving them powers? I thought the FR worked different because you couldnt worship things like nature or whatever and have spells.
#7 Stigger Nov 21, 2008 1:45:39	Was that way with the Weave... with its destruction, nothing really says you can't beyond conventions of previous editions, many of which were blown away with 4e. I'd say do whatever makes sense for your own campaign so long as the DM and players are cool with it.
#8 lord_karsus Nov 21, 2008 10:23:40	That doesnt make a lot of sense. If the god/goddess is dead who is giving them powers? I thought the FR worked different because you couldnt worship things like nature or whatever and have spells. -That's the major problem I had with Servant of the Fallen.
#9 Mr_Miscellany Nov 21, 2008 21:05:18	I think there's room for DMs to write in fluff or an easy "this is why" explanation. The simplest is that belief alone fuels access to magical power. Belief then shapes that power in ways that are divinely themed (thus, the powers list in the Cleric class description). A more involved explanation might be that the very first clerics post-Spellplague were ordained by the deities directly, after those deities got a handle (literally) on their divine realms and came to realize Mystra was no more. The gods were very likely the first to "figure out" how magic worked after her death, then imparted in their most devout followers the ability to access magic again (as well as the ability to extend this gift to others who were worthy) without frying themselves to a crisp in the process (something very possible if one tried to access magic without using the Weave/Shadow Weave as an interface). From an adventure standpoint: This implies that if one were to kill the high priest of a specific faith (perhaps as part of a magical ritual or with a unique magic item), the high priest's death might serve to unravel the ability of all other clerics to use magic who are of the same ordained ancestry that the high priest started. This would be like killing off an ancestor and extinguishing an entire branch of a family tree. From a mechanics point of view, we know in previous editions of the game that a DM could prevent a Cleric from accessing their divine powers if -in the DM's judgement- the player character strayed from the faith. In my opinion, this is why WotC changed things. Since the Weave is gone, there is no Mystra to censure or prevent clerics and other divine spellcasters from casting. This seems to fit WotC's design imperitive of "streamline everything" because DMs don't have to closely watch and judge the PC Cleric's actions. Note the Player's Handbook does warn players not to stray far from their faiths.
#10 Stigger Nov 22, 2008 1:44:37	From an adventure standpoint: This implies that if one were to kill the high priest of a specific faith (perhaps as part of a magical ritual or with a unique magic item), the high priest's death might serve to unravel the ability of all other clerics to use magic who are of the same ordained ancestry that the high priest started. This would be like killing off an ancestor and extinguishing an entire branch of a family tree. Now that... is a very interesting idea to me. From a mechanics point of view, we know in previous editions of the game that a DM could prevent a Cleric from accessing their divine powers if -in the DM's judgement- the player character strayed from the faith. In my opinion, this is why WotC changed things. Since the Weave is gone, there is no Mystra to censure or prevent clerics and other divine spellcasters from casting. This seems to fit WotC's design imperitive of "streamline everything" because DMs don't have to closely watch and judge the PC Cleric's actions. Note the Player's Handbook does warn players not to stray far from their faiths. I agree that this is why WotC changed things, but I'm not sure if it was to relieve the DM of burden, or to attempt to strip them of the ability to easily censure PCs, rightly or wrongly... or maybe both. Can't quite decide how to look at that idea, though I'm fairly certain I don't agree with it from a philosophical point of view, since it would point towards deities not really caring what their clerics are actually doing in my mind. Fine line perhaps, but from what I know of anecdotal evidence (lowest form of, but...), I could see why WotC would do either, or both.
#11 pamela Nov 22, 2008 4:10:28	If the temple or cult excommunicates a cleric or paladin, would that character then lose his powers?
#12 RUMPLESTIX Nov 22, 2008 8:07:51	If the temple or cult excommunicates a cleric or paladin, would that character then lose his powers? As I understand it, no. I do not know of anything written specifically mentioning that it can be done. Also, I believe they left these things vague so that heresies could still develop as long as they did not stray so far from the deities proscribed dogma that it would send an angel of some sort or other to set things straight. If excommunication could strip powers, it would put a serious clamp on heresies and intrafaith rivalry development. My belief was that they wished to leave the former open and encourage the latter. At least, that is the 'feel' I get when I read the PHB descriptions.
#13 lord_karsus Nov 22, 2008 11:19:46	-Agreed. At best, the sources allude to the deities themselves sending servitors to stop heretics and excommunicated fellows and such, but not actually stopping them from operating as normal, power and all. Which is ludacris to me. Even if the covenant between the deity and servitor (in him/her getting anointed priest/paladin/whatever else) is the new source of the servitors power, the deity is still one part of that equation.