I don't know what about 4E FR, but in previous editions clerics could get there powers not from deity only but from divine power, or divine source, so they would not lose their power in case of death of their deity or smth else.
"Some clerics devote themselves not to a god but to a cause or a source of divine power. These clerics wield magic the way clerics devoted to individual gods do, but they are not associated with a religious institution or a particular practice of worship." -- 3E Players Handbook (2000).
What do you know about it? Could clerics in FR gain power just for teaching divine spells and getting power from divine source, not from deity, so they could be more independent? ( deity to serve chooses anyway, because it is cleric with ideals of deity, but I am asking especially about power source.)
Thank you.
In the Realms there was no such thing as getting the Power (i.e. divine spellcasting ability) from worshipping concepts or philosophies on themselves.
The Adama, a common philosophy in the Durpar en Semphar area, is the closest thing that existed that would grant clerics the Power, but even there the ones responcable for granting the spells were always divine entities.
Just say no to clerics that want to get power from worshipping a potted plant. :p
Just say no to clerics that want to get power from worshipping a potted plant. :p
But Bob the Ungruntled is the god of romaine lettuce and power tools. 
There are many examples of peoples in the Realms worshipping things other than gods. Worshippers of the Elemental lords (Primordials) for instance, Beholder cults, cults dedicated to dead gods, and they were all able to cast spells. In some cases those prayers were answered by other gods (Tiamat had a habit of doing that alot), but still i see faith and belief holding a great deal of power, while i dont see a potted plant granting powers perhaps Nature itself would. I also find it interesting that cults of AO never ever got any spells. I mean those beholder cult guys got some spells, but its like AO went out of his way to block any one from casting any spells in his name. With the changes in 4e, where the power now comes from the cleric and not directly from the god i wonder if it would now be possible to have a spell casting cleric of AO.
With the changes in 4e, where the power now comes from the cleric and not directly from the god i wonder if it would now be possible to have a spell casting cleric of AO.
Aha...so now power comes not from a god, but from cleric itself and then he decides in which god's name to spell it- right?
With the changes in 4e, where the power now comes from the cleric and not directly from the god i wonder if it would now be possible to have a spell casting cleric of AO.
Aha...so now power comes not from a god, but from cleric itself and then he decide in which god's name to spell it- right?
Well, the cleric gets his/her power from a ritual performed by other members of the faith who already possess divine power. But the latter part of the statement is correct: it's then entirely up to the cleric to use it as s/he wishes, even in a heretical manner.
With the changes in 4e, where the power now comes from the cleric and not directly from the god i wonder if it would now be possible to have a spell casting cleric of AO.
Aha...so now power comes not from a god, but from cleric itself and then he decide in which god's name to spell it- right?
Well, the cleric gets his/her power from a ritual performed by other members of the faith who already possess divine power. But the latter part of the statement is correct: it's then entirely up to the cleric to use it as s/he wishes, even in a heretical manner.
And could that ritual be performed by a cleric themself or with another powers in him( her) ?
Ok so then you could become a cleric and then tell everybody yes i get my power from the holy house plant. Of course then you would probably have some Avengers from the relegious order that swore you in comin after you.
They had it set up in an older edition that like spell levels 1-2 came from the cleric, 3-6 came from a servant of your god, with levels 7-9 coming directly from the God. I dont remember what edition that was though i think it was either OD&D or BECMI.
And what about Favored Soul from previous ed. Is it something like what I mean?
And could that ritual be performed by a cleric themself or with another powers in him( her) ?
How could you be sure that any deity would answer the Ritual? And how could you be sure which one did? Those are the questions that arise for me after reading your response.
Oh, and one more thing in 4-ed powers all goes from one place- but from what- they are from inside cleric- like a wizard powers?
O.K. if it would be activated with help of other cleric and then from inside?
And may be it activated by something like herritage or inner wish, power,leagacy?
And what about Favored Soul from previous ed. Is it something like what I mean?
Well I think one of the requirements was that you had to have a patron deity. So you couldnt be a favored soul of an idea or a house plant, unfortunatly.
How could you be sure that any deity would answer the Ritual? And how could you be sure which one did? Those are the questions that arise for me after reading your response.
Well im not sure a deity has to actually answer the ritual. Its like you participate in the ritual and poof youre a cleric. I think they changed that up to avoid having people runing around with levels of ex-cleric or ex-druid, which does seem a little pointless, so the way it is in 4e even if you abandon your gods teachings youre still a cleric or a paladin or what ever and can still use those powers. They do keep it a little vague, and definatly open to DM interpertation. I still like a strong god connection in there, but in 4e you could have a cleric of an idea like peace or even a cleric of a house plant with out bending any rules. And with the Realms having a large pantheon I could definatly see clerics dedicated to more than just one god, Like a cleric of the Triad or the Seldarine as a whole or what have you.
Oh, and one more thing in 4-ed powers all goes from one place- but from what- they are from inside cleric- like a wizard powers?
Right the clerics spells come from within the cleric, not the actual deity.
O.K. if it would be activated with help of other cleric and then from inside?
Right, exactly.
And may be it activated by something like herritage or inner wish, power,leagacy?
I dont think thats what they had in mind, but that does sound interesting. I dont see why that wouldnt work, they keep it a little vague about how clerics actually get their power, other than to say its from a ritual, so if you wanted to say its something like herritage or something like that i dont see anything game breaking with that.
Ok what about smth like that- "Man decides to choose a divine path, he choses deity, which he chose not by the name, but by the domains wich he also prefer."
Then next step- "He startes his teachings in one of the god's temples. Thanks to self training and prayes of his own and other clerics he realise the divine power and learn to use it."
Or another way- he open his powers thanks to herriage or inner power, situation)
By the way- is that investiture to a cleric- not just a formality? I mean in PHB wrote that when you choose a path of a cleric by yourself, choose deity or philosophy and decides to devote life to serving that ideals- you may open use your power allready, the next is just training smth like wizard studying( the don't need a ritual to read there spells =) )
Last step- "After activation of his powers he continue studiyng by hiw own, thanks to divine magic books and scrolls and use his powers which ever he wish"
Did I loose something,or not?
Well im not sure a deity has to actually answer the ritual. Its like you participate in the ritual and poof youre a cleric.
Really? Then where does the power come from? Is everyone carrying around an almost limitless supply of Divine power? What is the source of this power?
I had felt (even with this change to the rules) that a deity or being of a higher power had to step in at the moment of the Ritual to grant you the power. Once they had done that, well, now they can't take it away again. If belief itself is a power then it must have a focus, otherwise you don't have a religeon, you have a generally held superstition. Is the church itself that focus? The other priests? An object? Who knows, but there has to be a source otherwise people even without the ritual would be able to tap into the Divine power source with no relation to anything Divine. That, to me, seems flawed.
I'd have to agree, the 4e approach to divine magic and investment just leaves me utterly cold. The concept behind it seems to almost invite an attitude of entitlement without actual responsibility behind it... at least none that the deity can levy directly if the cleric strays and begins abusing the power the deity invested in them... and no, I don't think "hey, don't do that or I'll say don't do that again" really counts.
The main reason the designers of 3rd Edition and 4th wanted to keep Clerics and Paladins intact with self-sufficent powers, is that if a DM didn't like what you were doing, they could arbitrarily just say "Your god takes away your powers." What the circumstances are is left up to question, but I'm sure anyone here can get the idea.
From what I have seen in 4th ed. is that some of the powers have the keywords "Channel Divinity" These particualr powers are available only from a follower of a particualr deity, and they may only use 1 "Channel Divinity" power per encounter and some only once per day. But a lot of them are just Cleric Ki I guess ...
I get where it comes from, I'm just of the opinion that if a DM is of a punitive mindset in the first place, the only thing its going to do is make them find other ways of going about screwing you over. Same result, different means is all it really accomplishes.
I'd have to agree, the 4e approach to divine magic and investment just leaves me utterly cold. The concept behind it seems to almost invite an attitude of entitlement without actual responsibility behind it... at least none that the deity can levy directly if the cleric strays and begins abusing the power the deity invested in them... and no, I don't think "hey, don't do that or I'll say don't do that again" really counts.
I can understand the purpose, however.
For NPCs, the idea is that you can do a "priest of a good god who turned evil" or the converse. There are interesting plotlines based on "The head of the order of LG paladins is giving orders that conflict with your beliefs" type of ideas, and unfortunately, you don't want to end the plotline with "Well, he can still cast divine spells, so I guess my god agrees with him." Removing any potential for sects of a religion with conflicting viewpoints strikes me as an uninteresting way to go.
For PCs, this also solves the issue of DMs needing to take an active hand or have the PC be able to declare, "Hey, whatever I'm doing must be in accordance with my deity's precepts, otherwise I wouldn't still be able to cast spells." If a PC starts behaving against the tenets of his religion, it's more interesting to have the church act against him themselves, rather than have the DM be forced to make an immediate call as to whether a player action was sufficiently beyond the pale that his deity cuts him off.
Really? Then where does the power come from? Is everyone carrying around an almost limitless supply of Divine power? What is the source of this power?
Thats a good question, they do keep it pretty vague in the PHB, stating that
"Clerics are usually formally ordained by existing clerics who perform a special ritual to do so, but on rare occasions a deity moves to directly ordain a worthy worshiper"
So really its up to the player and DM to decide how and where the power comes from. My guess is that this ritual connects you to the Astral Sea or perhaps another plane associated with your chosen deity, or perhaps the power comes from within kinda like psionic.
Now I really don't know what to do...
A lot fo answers and all are different... =)
So could anyone give me a full answer please with all yes and no in it?
With some examples may be...
So power goes from inside the cleric after activating it, or not? Any examples?
Could activating be in another way except off other clerics help?
And what about other divine classes( Invoker Avanger) after all? DO they have the same problems? =))
I see smth like that about taking away clerics powers back- If cleric do a lot fo things which are not counts with his deities domains he loose his power, but....don't any cleric could not explain his deeds as something which really counts as "Judjment" for example if his god has domain judgment or somth like that?
And for example what do cleric need to do that Avandra( with her simple to follow in anyway domains) would take powers back????
The saim in FR- some deities like that also with simple to follow rules.
"....Notably, it is also stated that a cleric needn't worship a specific deity or have a religion at all, but can draw their power from a philosophy or even their personal devotion to a cause or way of life..." ( From3E)
What do you think about it? =))
There are no real answers, its pretty much up to you to decide.
Just as I thought.- IT IS ALL ROLEPLAY!!!! Huraaay =))))
Thank you folks for interesting coversations. =)))
Good luck. =))
So what are you going with? Whats your clerics story?
Well as I wished-
About powers: "He decided to surve justice, so he decided to serve Bahamut. During his life he tries to be neutral at judjment even about himeslf- because only in that way judjment is right, when it comes from heart, but sometimes his good heart prevents in his judjment. He got his powers during monthes learning in churche's library prepairing his heart for serving and his mind for tests. He opend divine sourse in his belief in justice, high morals and will inside his heart, his divine spells were getting better with every day amd his will to bring his phylosophy and moral to others grows constantly.
He got blessing of some clerics in a church, but it was just a formality and he become wandering cleric, seeking for his destiny and folowing high ideals( or at least trying to do it).
During his adventuring he also realise what was one of the reasons his heart chose to serve justice and good- it was his herritage....divine herritage..."
Normal? =)))
Sounds cool to me. I like the idea of a cleric having a strong connection with their god myself.
Thanks! =)
May be there are others who could write here some kind of another version of getting used with divine power? =)
I had felt (even with this change to the rules) that a deity or being of a higher power had to step in at the moment of the Ritual to grant you the power. Once they had done that, well, now they can't take it away again.
This is how it works, IMO. The power comes from a divine being - the link to which is established through ritual. However, deitoes no longer have the power to break that link. In the Realms, this is possibly a rule that Ao added, or maybe an effect from the Spellplague (i.e. without the Weave, cutting off somone's magic isn't possible any more). So once a cleric has the power, he can use it as he wishes, even against his original faith.
One would assume though that unless a cleric uses extremely powerful trickery (at 1st level), he would actually be faithfull when he is granted the powers, since I assume the clerics that perform the ritual, and likely the ritual itself, ensure a cleric's loyalty at that point.
Note btw that taking a cleric's (or paladin's, or avenger's) powers away in 4th ed means basically being able to do nothing but basic attacks. This is probably one reason why this rule was added.
Still, if a god *dies*, the power he or she granted stops. So unless there is a different way to draw power (i.e. if another deity steps in - which is not uncommon), their divine worshippers would be in dire straits and instantly loose all their powers.
In our gaming group if we play 3.5 FR we definately don't allow cherry picking the domains you want and going with it instead of choosing a diety. If the DM approves you can take the feat Heretic of the faith if you can find an appropriate alternative domain within your chosen dieties dogma. But worshipping a philosophy as itself like in core D&D wont give any clerical power.
Philosophers can become Adepts if they have enough religious faith in their own ideas. Most are Experts though.
I had felt (even with this change to the rules) that a deity or being of a higher power had to step in at the moment of the Ritual to grant you the power. Once they had done that, well, now they can't take it away again.
Still, if a god *dies*, the power he or she granted stops. So unless there is a different way to draw power (i.e. if another deity steps in - which is not uncommon), their divine worshippers would be in dire straits and instantly loose all their powers.
Could you please show me a source in 4E where you find that informaton? Because if reading PHB at least there written that cleric's power DON"T GO FROM DEITY. =) So after God's death power could not be taken from a cleric, the only thing he must choose another God to serve( and even it is not so important because his power source is opened allready and he can do anything with his power. )
It is not so important how power source was opened( had it been ritual on his own or with help of other clerics or situation, herritage, destiny, legacy etc...), but after it has been oppened- only death of cleric or smth like that can stop his power....
I will try to write steps and possible ways for cleric:
1) Cleric choose a a specific faith to wich he devote himself. Usually it is worshiping a deity, but also clerics could be devoted to churches that venerate groups of deities or even phylosophies! ( It is not just my words it is taken from PHB 4E- open and read it, so don't tell me that cleric could not be devoted for phylosphie, for example mercy or judjment etc...)
2) As a cleric, his deity does not directly grant him powers! Insead his ordination or investiture as a cleric could grant him ability to wield divine powers! ( It is also not my imagination it is taken from PHB 4E- So, cleric's powers DON'T GO FROM A DEITY, as someones says- it is from cleric, from his will from inside, from his heart, morals, beliefth etc... )
3) Clerics are usually formally ordained by exicting clerics who perform a special ritual to do so. ( So as you see the word usually doesn't mean always and even often- just USUALLY- so it is not the only way to get a cleric status formally( formally, just FORMALLY not the only way to open powers- just FORMALLY.)
4) What to do with his powers, once he is ordained is up to him, only if he fragrantly and openly defy his deity's tenents, he will quickly earn the enmity of faithful. ( It is not said that his powers would be taken away, by a deity- NO, just problems with other faithful- AND NO POWERS TAKEN AWAY! )
All information were taken from PHB 4E ( cleric p. 61-62) Check by yourself.
Any questions? =)
Any questions? =)
Just some observations actually:
This has so far been a discussion. This discussion is based on incomplete data. Almost all parties to this discussion have the PHB (not least because two of us, including myself, have pretty much quoted directly from it before your post) so could we cool down a little? We have been looking into ways that cleric could come about. There is no "yes" and "no" answer because as with all other things in D&D it is down to you, your DM and the decisions you come to between you.
Having just reread the entire section in addition to the newer material available in Divine Power, not just the single paragraph you quote, I would say that it seems to suggest that a Cleric may be a servant of a Philosophy in a single sentence. It spends the rest of the chapter, and the space devoted to it in DP talking about a Cleric's connection with the gods. If what you say is entirely accurate then why would they bother, in Divine Power, to write in the first line of the Cleric description "Wielding power sanctioned by the gods, you are the center of your adventuring party."
Are there likely to be ways to gain and wield power from the Divine power source that have more to do with groups and ideas than the gods themselves? Almost certainly! Is this likely to be the most usual way of doing things? From the sheer amount of text supporting Cleric being servants of deities, I would have to say that I think not.
You are right- there can't be any "No" or "Yes"- it wasn't by the way said by me at first, look at the posts befor mine, please.
I wish to hear - "It could be". =))
And could we understand the words- sanctioned by the Gods- not as a source of power, but just as a bless of God to do some things( that ritual of clerics or other way of activating) ?Because let reppeat words- Cleric don't gain power from deity. =))
What do you think?
I think that it is suggested that Humans with powers that are not linked dircetly to their bodies (by a weapon) are not often the source of those powers. Wizards shape magic that exists in the world, sorcerers harness the power of the elemental planes and the universe itself, warlocks make pacts with powerful beings. Druids and so on draw power from the manifestation of natural or bestial spirits. There are characters that draw power directly, as it may be, from the Astral Plane or Divine power source and do not need to reference the gods directly (the Invoker that I am playing at the moment for example), but when you are talking about Clerics the very definition of the word suggests a brush with the gods.
Just to make it clear, I am not expecting you to agree with me. There is, I would say, no demonstrable proof that Clerical power does not come from gods in either the PHB or DP. No matter how vehemently or often you say so. So I remain discussing possibilities.
So working on your idea of a "cleric" that follows no god, where does the power that drives their "prayers" come from? The human body is not a battery, so the power has to come from somewhere. This seems to be the basis for the need for Power Sources in 4E to exist at all.
Oh no! =) I didn't mean that. I just wish to say that cleric could have ability to supervise and subordinate to itself this force not thanks to the deity.
"There are characters that draw power directly, as it may be, from the Astral Plane or Divine power source and do not need to reference the gods directly" - can't cleric have the same source? But also choose a god for serving.) because he is cleric)
"There are characters that draw power directly, as it may be, from the Astral Plane or Divine power source and do not need to reference the gods directly" - can't cleric have the same source? But also choose a god for serving.) because he is cleric)
Well yes, the Cleric does have the same source. The difference is that a Cleric is a Cleric. Now sure, you can work out a way to imbue a single person with solo access to the Divine power source without anything to do with a god and use the Cleric as a mechanical template and refluff any power that mentions the gods (especially in the flavour text accompanying them) but at that point I would challenge whether that character is now a Cleric rather than being a Divine Beacon or somesuch.
What about that ways of power source ?
Other way- getting power source from domain of the god( justice, time, mercy etc.) ?
Or getting source power from some kind of place of astral- celestia mountain for example?
Banjo the Clown, interloper deity, needs worshippers in the Realms.
It is not trying to cheat with the system- it is trying to make interesting roleplay character- interesting way for others. Don't like- don't use. 
If the cleric's god dies- he loose some of his powers and need to choose a new deity to renew all his powers or he doesn't loose his powers in that case?
If the cleric's god dies- he loose some of his powers and need to choose a new deity to renew all his powers or he doesn't loose his powers in that case?
Only if your DM is houseruling. By PHB RAW, once you undergo the investiture to get your powers, they're yours, no matter what.
Salla,and what will be a sourse of cleric's powers after his deity dies? Astral Sea or smth like that?
All right folks, thank you for interesting discussions! =)
If it would be not hard for all of you, give full answers on next questions, so to be sure in my thoughts:
1) Cleric gain his power source from deity only, right? Or could get it from Astral Sea, God's domain, several Gods and just worship one God?
2) After cleric's God duys he doesn't loose his powers( as said before). Than what would be a new source of power for him- Astral Sea or other deity with the same domains and ideas?
3) Activating of divine power source for cleric making throw a ritual with help of other clerics, or it also could be oppened on his own with the same ritual or his will, herritage, situation, learning, training etc..?
4) Learning to control divine power source achieving with trainings and readings special scrolls and literature, and could be making with out others help?
Thanks all! =)
Well, before I explain what will follow I want to make it perfectly clear that this is just how I interpret the information that we have been given and as such I make no claims about its absolute accuracy and/or the agreement of others with it. As such, this is how I see the situation:
All Divine power seems to have its source in the Astral Plane either in the gods themselves or in the mutable power inherent in the Astral Sea/Plane itself. The way it is set up seems to suggest that the ideas or beliefs of mortals take shape here, if this is accurate it suggests the possibility that the belief of a god's followers becomes a tangible force, a real energy source and as such concretizes the basis for the application of Divine power. A god, by holding a portfolio, becomes a nexus point for the inflow of this energy and is empowered. The god itself is not the source of this power but is able to shape the (mostly constant) flow to bring about miracles. The distinction here is, for me, important: A god itself is not a source of Divine power but can shape, bend and bestow it.
For me, the point of the Ritual of Investiture is to beseech the god in question (or other focus of belief) not to grant the Cleric power directly but to ask the deity to imbue the new Cleric with a fragment of the power from the Astral plane that the god currently controls. This fragment may be some sort of micro-gate or conduit. What it mechanically means is that the new Cleric is now and forevermore able to access the energies of the Astral plane. So if the god dies? Well, the Cleric can still access the power but no longer has the belief system to go behind it. If the Cleric rebels? They can still access the power and it is not easily taken away. This idea handles why Investiture is a one-time-deal and also allows for the retention of power should any deific strife occur.
This also allows for people to come to power through philosophies or groups of gods or even directly. These could be the searches to harness this power directly and as such are likely to be more difficult but with fewer restrictions (I would imagine) though always with the risk of being burned to a husk (mentally or physically) by the extreme level of energy.
As I said before, this is my own idea and I don't expect it to either be "right" or for anyone to agree with it. Take it as you will.
Thank you very much for your explanations. You thoughts are close to mine. we just don't understand each other at first.
So after God's death- it is better for cleric to choose another deity as a domain and moral example, because it is more like for cleric to serve deity, right? And also it is easier to controll power source throw the deity, yes?
Well and if cleric become an epic character, for example Demigod, Exalted Angel, Revereved One, Radiant One, or Avatar- in all that epic destinies PC grants a piece of divinity or smth like that, so he don't need so strong connection with God to controll Divine Power in case of God's death or smth like that( he surely continue serving de and helping deity, because he is a cleric, I mean just mechanically)
Other than gods there was also beast cults in the Realms. These cults believed that there were perfect examples of animals, example the cat cult believed some where there was a perfect cat who was the leader of all the other cats, and these worshipers tapped into the power of these perfect beasts to cast their spells. There must of been something to this as they did recieve spells.
I always chalked that one up to the Beast Lords on Arborea (I think it was, its been a long while), the ones mentioned in Planescape, myself.
I always chalked that one up to the Beast Lords on Arborea (I think it was, its been a long while), the ones mentioned in Planescape, myself.
Right, that would make sense.
Salla,and what will be a sourse of cleric's powers after his deity dies? Astral Sea or smth like that?
That's my take on it. Astral Sea -> Cleric as conduit and shaper -> Prayer Effect in the Natural World.
Beastlands, not Arborea, for the Animal Lords.
Beastlands, not Arborea, for the Animal Lords.
The Beastlands! of course! Im spending too much time in 4e land, forgeting my planes. Im gonna have to go reread me some Planescape.
Everyone should read them some planescape, whether they have to or not. 
*cuddles copies of PSCS boxed set, The Inner Planes and On Hallowed Ground*
you should be so lucky..... planescape.
Aye, some of us don't have such materials to hoard... yet. *dispatches Zhentarim bullyblades*
yep, most of what I have is FR or core, beyond that dragonlance and star wars
Aye, some of us don't have such materials to hoard... yet. *dispatches Zhentarim bullyblades*
Be careful Manshoony shoon is unleashing the Key Stone Cops!
I miss Billy the kid
William H. Bonney?
Could you please show me a source in 4E where you find that informaton?
It's just my opinion (I noted that at the start of my post). The PHB does not say where the power does or does not come from - only how it is aquired (through ritual).
As it is divine it seems to imply (IMO), that the power comes from a deity. The ritual opens a channel, and the deity can then not close that channel. However, if he dies (or is othewise unable to act), there is no deity to draw power from (again, IMO - if you don't mind, I stop writing 'IMO' every other sentence now.
If you need a reference on which to base tht opinion on: Lolth's Silence. She didn't even die - she was merely 'inconvenienced' - and all her clerics lost their powers. Of course, that is pre 4th ed, but I don't think that, in FR at least, that particular aspect of divine power has changed.
Now, is it possible to draw power from a pantheon, a dead god, or the astral sea? Possibly, but I think those would be anomalies if it woudl concern 'divine' power (esp as a cleric). In FR, almost everyone who receives divine power gets it from a single deity. Philosophers likely draw on psionic or arcane power, while those that draw power from the planes likely draw arcane or primal power.
Only pantheons seem to me to be a possible alternate power source for a cleric. But there are not many pantheonic power groups in the Realms (the Adama seems to be one of the very few exceptions), partly due to the nature of the FR deties and their penchant to backstab each other.
Personally, I do not think the PHBconsiders stuff sucha s deities dying, if only because that is not something that is normally to happen (except, apparently, in FR... sigh.).
Still, I think that a cleric looses all his powers upon a deity's death (In the Realms, since that is how ot worked before as well - it is possible the dissapearance of the Weave makes a difference, but if so, my clerics of Eilistraee would still wield power... and I think that would be a bit odd).
A cleric is likely quickly given the opportunity to switch to another diety - either an allied deity or the one that usurped the former deity's power.
But the fact that the PHB does not describe the process doesn't mean a deity's death has no effect (after all, arcane characters in magic dead areas are not described either).
Gomez
It seems that in 4E the Beastlands have merged with the natural world. Nobanion, Skerrit, Lurue and other Beastlords are classified as primal spirits in the 15th century Realms.
Might be the spirit realm, where dead unaligned spirits go, has the same properties as the former Beastlands. One could even extrapolate that primal classes like druids have to focus their devotion to nature on a single primal spirit to evoke their powers; just as Torilian clerics do with dieties.
They really need to clear up WTF happened with poor Rillifane. Primal spirit seems a shoo-in if he's no longer a god, but knowing them we'll never know because you know nobody cares about elves. *eyeroll*
Me and Suin are apparently both nuts according to that test. Which I seem to have spread to these quarters. Whoops.
I think these opposed dual color personalities are the most interesting. Nuts yes, but in a good way.
I used to build strong red blue Magic decks too.
____
Rillifane is probably older than Corellon and other fey entities, so that makes it possible he used to be a primal spirit.
In older editions fey creatures already were partly spirits, but they had physical bodies aswell. They definatley should bring out a tome on the Feywild exclusively so some of this can be made more clear.
Could you please show me a source in 4E where you find that informaton?
But the fact that the PHB does not describe the process doesn't mean a deity's death has no effect (after all, arcane characters in magic dead areas are not described either).
I read somewhere in wiki or in core books( don't remember ) that magic now doesn't depends on one deity as it was before, so magic source and magic wave now is more constant for using.
I think that changes in Divine source were to, so now powers don't go from deity itself, but deity is nexus point of power and somebody who can allow or award using that power to cleric, avanger...I think it was also made for stabylizing that source as well as magicall. ( IMO)
The ' one deity' was Mystra. It is an issue separate form drawing magic from a deity or not.
IMO, if you draw divine power, it comes from the gods, in one way or another.
It doesn't make sense to otherwise call it divine. There are other power sources for power that doesn' t come from the gods: arcane, pisonic, primal, or shadow.
A DM can always rule the divine power doesn't come from one specific god, or comes from a dead god. But it should come from the gods (or at least be channeled by them) - else there is no reason to call it divine.
A DM can always rule the divine power doesn't come from one specific god, or comes from a dead god. But it should come from the gods (or at least be channeled by them) - else there is no reason to call it divine.
Or it simply comes about because it's drawn from the Astral Sea, where the gods purportedly hang out (aka 'a divine realm').
A DM can always rule the divine power doesn't come from one specific god, or comes from a dead god. But it should come from the gods (or at least be channeled by them) - else there is no reason to call it divine.
Or it simply comes about because it's drawn from the Astral Sea, where the gods purportedly hang out (aka 'a divine realm').
That is sound more like for 4E rules. Gods now are only connectors with people and astral sea's divine source, worshipimg them are need to open that chanell- once and use it thanks to learning and training in churches or smth like that for clerics and avangers( IMO ) Worshiping deities for those who use divine power surtenly very important, because it helps in using that power abd often grants special abilities and powers. ANd let's not forget that for openning that source we must not just worship a deity but go throw a specific ritual to open powers, which could be provided only in churces or thanks to other divine servants of deities, who know how to open chanell. ( Also may be it could be some cases when person could try to open that source thanks to knowledge of his deity and knowing of that ritual thanks to some special churche's leterature and scrolls.) ( IMO again)
Invokers don't need to open a channel throw worshiping one deity, instead of that they open it throw their own connection with astral sea and even don't need to study spells from other places, they just control power that is in astral sea by their own understandding. ( Like sorcerers do with their sources) (IMO )
They really need to clear up WTF happened with poor Rillifane. Primal spirit seems a shoo-in if he's no longer a god, but knowing them we'll never know because you know nobody cares about elves. *eyeroll*
I'd rather wait a bit to find out he's now a Primal Spirit than find out soon that he always was Silvanus in a fey mask.
Me and Suin are apparently both nuts according to that test. Which I seem to have spread to these quarters. Whoops.
Actually, I did this test a while ago, but never put it in my sig, until I saw you. You claim partial credit in my case. And, according to the test, I'm as brilliant as they come in MtG. Oddly enough, the results are exactly in-line with my personality, even the best/worst bit.
Or it simply comes about because it's drawn from the Astral Sea, where the gods purportedly hang out (aka 'a divine realm').
That is a way to rule it, but imo that is positively boring. Everyithing comes from the planes? Meh.
As to invokers: they, like paladins, are even closer tied to the gods than clerics. They are personally touched by the gods, and have to match their alignment.
Gomez
I think these opposed dual color personalities are the most interesting. Nuts yes, but in a good way.
I used to build strong red blue Magic decks too.
____
Rillifane is probably older than Corellon and other fey entities, so that makes it possible he used to be a primal spirit.
In older editions fey creatures already were partly spirits, but they had physical bodies aswell. They definatley should bring out a tome on the Feywild exclusively so some of this can be made more clear.
I'm apparently Lawful Chaotic. lulz.
I've always seen Corellon as one of those types of gods who's been around so long even he doesn't know how long he's been around. He's obviously been around a very long time, since he's the creator of the elven race and elves have been in Toril for what, 30,000 years, and they came from elsewhere when they came, implying that they've been around quite a bit longer than even that. (4e retcons can go have sex with themselves. They're stupid and pointless and show a total lack of imagination.) His portfolios are as varied as they are because he was one of the first of the gods and back then it wasn't so much what he was created by another god or by the worship of mortals to embody, but what aspects of the multiverse he came into being embodying and what sort of culture he shaped from that.
But I ignore the 3e and 4e cosmology changes, and I like my gods to be *Gods*. They can act like mortals if they want, especially since they created mortals in their own images, but they're not just overpowered mortals who decided 'Hey let's get some worshippers'. They're something far deeper and more profound. Much like an Eladrin(A real one, not this 4e crud) is a being whose basic essence is Chaotic Good, Corellon's essence *is* that of everything that would later become elven. He *is* a particular aspect of music, a particular aspect of magic, of the arts, etc. Shevarash was so consumed by hatred and a need for vengance that he *became* those things to his very core, and Fenmarel was merely providing him with the needed divine spark when he helped him ascend to godhood upon his death. Etc. Not just 'hurr I'm really powerful worship me'.
Wow this is a popular thread! Usually i get on here and theres a handful of responses. I get on here today and theres like 25 for this one! I just want to point out that many of the deities in the Realms have different aspects. The Seldarine all have Primal aspects and probaly Arch Fey Status as well. Kossuth and the other Elemental lords I could seeing having Elemental and Divine connections. I think alot of it has to do with the worshpper, and how they see the connection to the deity.
And im not taking a MTG test. Now if theres a Bloodwar test ill take that one. Any one remember the Bloodwar CCG? Unfortunatly i have no idea what happened to all my cards or i would challange some one to a game.
I just want to point out that many of the deities in the Realms have different aspects. The Seldarine all have Primal aspects and probaly Arch Fey Status as well. Kossuth and the other Elemental lords I could seeing having Elemental and Divine connections. I think alot of it has to do with the worshpper, and how they see the connection to the deity.
Normally I appreciate blurring the lines, but this is one of the areas where I like things to be clear-cut, for my own peace of mind. I like gods to be gods, my demon lords to be demon lords, etc. While I certainly allow for mortal beings to view, say, Rillifane as a Primal Spirit rather than a god, that doesn't change the fact that in my game, Rillifane is a deity, and is not a primal spirit.
And im not taking a MTG test. Now if theres a Bloodwar test ill take that one. Any one remember the Bloodwar CCG? Unfortunatly i have no idea what happened to all my cards or i would challange some one to a game.
Take the MtG test. You know you want to. I myself have only just recently become interested in MtG, and even I took the test. All the cool kids are doing it.
I took that mtg test, and I dont think its was avery good diea.
I took that mtg test, and I dont think its was avery good diea.
In other words, you got a result you weren't expecting, and didn't much care for it?
nah, I think it was the same as yours.
but you see, to me its no better than the alignment tests in and around the web.
they all end up different
Normally I appreciate blurring the lines, but this is one of the areas where I like things to be clear-cut, for my own peace of mind. I like gods to be gods, my demon lords to be demon lords, etc. While I certainly allow for mortal beings to view, say, Rillifane as a Primal Spirit rather than a god, that doesn't change the fact that in my game, Rillifane is a deity, and is not a primal spirit.
Well I definatly see what youre saying. I myslef dont like Demon/Devil deities either. In previous editions i could definalty see evil Clerics dedicated to these beings, but in 4e they would definalty be Warlocks IMO. I like the blurred lines for the gods myself, so Silvanus could have Clerics or Druids, or whatever. I think the gods are far beyond mortal understanding, so they could be Divine/Primordal/Archfey/Priamal Spirit/ whatever else at the same time. I also dont think Gods should have stats, I never really liked that. They dont seem to be doing it so much in this edition. But if you give Zeus hitpoints and a AC, someone is going to kick his a$$, and i think that is just wrong.
Well I definatly see what youre saying. I myslef dont like Demon/Devil deities either. In previous editions i could definalty see evil Clerics dedicated to these beings, but in 4e they would definalty be Warlocks IMO. I like the blurred lines for the gods myself, so Silvanus could have Clerics or Druids, or whatever. I think the gods are far beyond mortal understanding, so they could be Divine/Primordal/Archfey/Priamal Spirit/ whatever else at the same time.
Well, even though I clear-cut my higher entities, I would still allow, for example, Silvanus to have both clerics and druids. What I mean is: mortal perception is fine. If Clerics perceive Silvanus as a god, Silvanus can have clerics. If Druids perceive Silvanus as a Primal Spirit, Silvanus can have druids. If a select few view Silvanus as an Elemental Lord, Silvanus can have Warlocks. So the varied perception of these higher beings in the eyes of the mortal races is fine with me.
However, ultimately, unbeknownst to them, Silvanus is only a deity. He can be viewed as a Primal Spirit or Elemenetal Lord, but in the end, he is just a deity. However, because the devotion of the druids and warlocks is about as fervent as that of his clerics, he can maintain the illusion of being a Primal Spirit/EL, and grant powers to those servants in as much the same way as he blesses his clerics, though in doing so, he is acting as an entity with one true identity managing his faithful through different means (answering prayers, inspiring actions, granting pacts), not as a multi-faceted being with several true identities managing his faithful through different mantles (God, Elemental Lord, Primal Spirit). The identity is in the eye of the entity him/her/itself, not the mortals, who only believe they understand the identity of the one they follow. Hopefully this makes sense to those reading it.
I also dont think Gods should have stats, I never really liked that. They dont seem to be doing it so much in this edition. But if you give Zeus hitpoints and a AC, someone is going to kick his a$$, and i think that is just wrong.
Agreed 100%. I just don't like the idea of gods being viable targets, and even if you give them incredible stats, they're still going to be viable targets to some extent, simply because they have stats, and as such, are theoretically vulnerable to mortals. It also ruins the idea of the powers of the gods being mysterious and kept from mortal eyes.
Yes LM that makes perfect sense. I agree the thing there is the worshippers and how they see the gods they follow. I dont see too much of a reference to gods being directly tied to their followers in 4e, like after the ToT, but im still keeping with that.
I dont see too much of a reference to gods being directly tied to their followers in 4e, like after the ToT, but im still keeping with that.
This ties into another question that I never saw answered. What is the worth of faithful souls residing in the deity's homeplane in death? Gods only seem to care about how many servants they have alive in the mortal realms. The dead souls earning their eternal reward seem to get shafted. I don't see why their value should suddenly disappear after passing away. So, in my realms, a god's strength is determined not only by the number of living faithful, but also by the number of dead faithful residing in his homeplane.
So, to provide an example: For those of you read the Avatar series, remember when Kezef tore through Fury's Heart and chomped on the souls of Talos' faithful, effectively obliterating them? In my realms, that would've been a few scratches on the level of strength Talos had at that time, because he lost a few followers, even though they were dead souls residing in the afterlife.
I never really thought of that before. That does make a lot of sense. Im gonna have to start usin that myself. Thanx man!
interesting point of view LM
A DM can always rule the divine power doesn't come from one specific god, or comes from a dead god. But it should come from the gods (or at least be channeled by them) - else there is no reason to call it divine.
Or it simply comes about because it's drawn from the Astral Sea, where the gods purportedly hang out (aka 'a divine realm').
That is sound more like for 4E rules.
Well, yeah. I play 4e, so I go off 4e rules. 
A DM can always rule the divine power doesn't come from one specific god, or comes from a dead god. But it should come from the gods (or at least be channeled by them) - else there is no reason to call it divine.
Or it simply comes about because it's drawn from the Astral Sea, where the gods purportedly hang out (aka 'a divine realm').
That is sound more like for 4E rules.
Well, yeah. I play 4e, so I go off 4e rules.
As I am- it was just my understanding too. =)))
By the way just read in 3E book called Complete Divine- that clerics( even clerics) can worship a phylosophie or just chosen by his own will domains, and he still would be a cleric with divine powers and no penalties for that. =))
Ah, right, the Beastlands... been a while since I've read those books, obviously.
So... yeah. Screw the edition stuff, just do what makes sense to you and be a real individual, instead of the guy screaming "Me too!".
My take on this:
Right the clerics spells come from within the cleric, not the actual deity.
[...]
Right, exactly.
Actually no, the cleric spells still come from the deity, the deity is only unable to stop them from flowing into the cleric if he goes against her wishes. But "no deity, no spells" is still in place, so if your deity bites the dust, so do your spells
So power goes from inside the cleric after activating it, or not?
No. Once activated the cleric can draw from the deity without the deity being able to sever the connection, but it's still drawn from the deity.
Any examples?
E.g. Living Forgotten Realms campaign. No divine characters without a living deity supplying their spells. Doesn't matter that your elven cleric of Mystra got the ritual performed pre-spellplague. Once Mystra was no longer around, all these ritual-granted connections to draw on her power became useless without there being power to draw from
And what about other divine classes( Invoker Avanger) after all? DO they have the same problems? =))
Yes
"....Notably, it is also stated that a cleric needn't worship a specific deity or have a religion at all, but can draw their power from a philosophy or even their personal devotion to a cause or way of life..." ( From3E)What do you think about it? =))
These were the 3.x core rules, the FR had setting specific special rules that said contrarywise
This ties into another question that I never saw answered. What is the worth of faithful souls residing in the deity's homeplane in death? Gods only seem to care about how many servants they have alive in the mortal realms. The dead souls earning their eternal reward seem to get shafted. I don't see why their value should suddenly disappear after passing away.
Actually that has been answered in On Hallowed Grounds. The souls are basically the food of the gods. They hang out in the divine realms for some time, during which they lose all their mortal imperfections and become more and more perfect representatives of their deity's portfolios. Once they reach this enlightened state, they feel an unbearable urge to merge with their deity and this is what happes. May vary from being absorbed during a loving embrace for the good deities to the evil deities literally devouring their faithfull souls. Basically the gods reenergize themselves by consuming pure representations of their own ideals
These were the 3.x core rules, the FR had setting specific special rules that said contrarywise
Yay! Someone brought it back towards being FR specific. So looking at the FR specific rules can we say why gods now cannot withdraw their powers as they were once able to?
no they cant.
however they might be likely to not allow their rituals...
man lets see how long it takes for rules to start contradicting themselves
Agh whatever...can somebody say me where it was written about powers going from deity directly in FR? Because I wish to know exactly information about it.
Sounds like divine PC have the most unstable source of power.
Martial takes power from self training.
Arcane heroes from magic wave( which all moast always stable- except of huge catastrophies aka Spellplague- and even then their powers came back)
Primal heroes take powers from wilderness and spirits( which also could not be destroyd intil nature exists.)
Psionic heroes get powers from inside and trainings themselves.
ANd only divine heroes can lose their powers because of deities death or deities descision. Wondefull !
Agh whatever...can somebody say me where it was written about powers going from deity directly in FR? Because I wish to know exactly information about it.
3e Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, page 22: Faerunian clerics function as described in the Player's Handbook, except that no clerics serve just a cause, philosophy or abstract source of divine power.[...]All clerics serve a patron deity.
ANd only divine heroes can lose their powers because of deities death or deities descision. Wondefull !
I know this might be too uncool for the hip new 4e, but divine heroes are SERVANTS, they're supposed to serve a higher master and actually put their own desires behind the wishes of their deity (although their desires should match the wishes of their deity).
Agh whatever...can somebody say me where it was written about powers going from deity directly in FR? Because I wish to know exactly information about it.
Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, page 22: Faerunian clerics function as described in the Player's Handbook, except that no clerics serve just a cause, philosophy or abstract source of divine power.[...]All clerics serve a patron deity.ANd only divine heroes can lose their powers because of deities death or deities descision. Wondefull !
I know this might be too uncool for the hip new 4e, but divine heroes are SERVANTS, they're supposed to serve a higher master and actually put their own desires behind the wishes of their deity (although their desires should match the wishes of their deity).
O.K. than in case of deity death could cleric choose another deity with similar domains or the new deity which take previous dead place and renew his powers with no loosing in power's level?
By the way thank you for giving page and book where I can find it, I have just read it.
O.K. than in case of deity death could cleric choose another deity with similar domains or the new deity which take previous dead place and renew his powers with no loosing in power's level?
Yes, that's certainly possible and has happened before.
O.K. than in case of deity death could cleric choose another deity with similar domains or the new deity which take previous dead place and renew his powers with no loosing in power's level?
Yes, that's certainly possible and has happened before.
Thank you for helping. So in that case clerics also have a stable power source in some way I think.
Just choose another deity if your heart desire it or in case of deities death etc.. and you are O.K. again. =)) Wright?
Thank you for helping. So in that case clerics also have a stable power source in some way I think.
Yes, but ideally deciding to become a divine character should be driven by more than "I want power and I am too lazy to train enough to become martial or study enough to become arcane ..."
Just choose another deity if your heart desire it or in case of deities death etc.. and you are O.K. again. =)) Wright?
Yes, although I think you would require a new investment before you can continue as a cleric of your previous level. If you're known for just switching deities because you don't like to fullfill their wishes you might find that other faiths are unwilling to accept you. If you need a new boss because your old one did bite the dust it'll certainly be easier to find acceptance by allied faiths. Yet many former servants of the dead deity might be so grief stricken that they'll never again even consider to wield divine power, their world, hopes and dreams having ended together with their deity.
Thank you for helping. So in that case clerics also have a stable power source in some way I think.
Yes, but ideally deciding to become a divine character should be driven by more than "I want power and I am too lazy to train enough to become martial or study enough to become arcane ..."Just choose another deity if your heart desire it or in case of deities death etc.. and you are O.K. again. =)) Wright?
Yes, although I think you would require a new investment before you can continue as a cleric of your previous level. If you're known for just switching deities because you don't like to fullfill their wishes you might find that other faiths are unwilling to accept you. If you need a new boss because your old one did bite the dust it'll certainly be easier to find acceptance by allied faiths (yet many former servants of the dead deity might be so grief stricken that they'll never again even consider to wield divine power)
Well for me I choose Tymora, because of her domains( Luck/Change) , her alignment ( Chaotic Good) and her Dogmas- to travel to look for adventures, to help good adventurers, have own goals and dreams in lfe which you wish to achieve, to trust a good luck etc...So for me it won't be any problem I think in understanding and worshiping her dogmas( as I am young Half-elf who wish to realise him in a big world and to run our from dauly routine, but also wosh to serve some high good ideals etc.) Just need to know about cases of death mostly.
Oh, one more thing- to active that power source it is need a ritual with help of other divine worshipers in FR also yep? Ot could be other ways? Any examples of it?
And by the way- activating is not enough- Cleric is not Favored Soul in 3E =)) He has to learn and practise spells in any case just as wizard. So lazy guys will not achieve great powers =)) =))
The souls are basically the food of the gods. They hang out in the divine realms for some time, during which they lose all their mortal imperfections and become more and more perfect representatives of their deity's portfolios. Once they reach this enlightened state, they feel an unbearable urge to merge with their deity and this is what happes. May vary from being absorbed during a loving embrace for the good deities to the evil deities literally devouring their faithfull souls. Basically the gods reenergize themselves by consuming pure representations of their own ideals
*vomits in disgust*
Don't get me wrong. I thank you for bringing that to my attention, but that's one bit of lore I'm going to ignore. I prefer the faithful to metaphorically be the sustenance of the gods, not literally.
*vomits in disgust*Don't get me wrong. I thank you for bringing that to my attention, but that's one bit of lore I'm going to ignore. I prefer the faithful to metaphorically be the sustenance of the gods, not literally.
Indeed! I spend my whole life in the service of a god, only in the end to be eaten by then!? No thanx!! I'll pass on that one. I guess its the Wall for me.
that was ..... umm.. I dont even know if gross would be the right word.
that was ..... umm.. I dont even know if gross would be the right word.
My comment, Mirtek's, or Silversword's? Just curious...
mirteks
that was ..... umm.. I dont even know if gross would be the right word.
My comment, Mirtek's, or Silversword's? Just curious...
Im betting it was yours. You actually emptied the contents of your stomach all over the place! I AM NOT cleaning THAT up!
Edit: AHHHHH I stand corrected.
that too
Im betting it was yours. You actually emptied the contents of your stomach all over the place! I AM NOT cleaning THAT up!
Bleh, it was metaphorical, and you know it. Though should I ever release the contents of my stomach upon a foreign surface, I'd just have one of the lowest level Zhentarim clean it up. Or magically whisk it away to splatter the robes of the nearest Banite.
Well metaphoric vomit is alot easier to clean up...
metaphorically, it smells twice as bad.
good thing it'll end up on the nearest banite
It should be noted that On Hallowed Ground also notes that the soul is not generally obliterated by this and still exists and is indeed still partially seperate from the god.
The part that always bugged the living hell out of me was the part where 'Oh yeah the souls of the dead always lose their memories when they die, period'. *THAT* was BS. (And contradicts FR anyway because every time I've seen someone in the afterlife in FR they still remembered their life anyway.)
That part I'd ignore, or to stick it to the oh-so-sophisticated planars, make it so that like everything else with the planes, Belief shapes everything. Jaded planar who knows it all and 'knows' that you're gonna lose your memories when you die? Hey guess what, the Astral takes 'em and you do. Naive Prime who believes that the afterlife is where they'll be reunited with their dead loved ones and still remember everything? Astral can't take **** from you, and you show up remembering your life and spend your days with mom and dad or whoever until they reach their final understanding of their god, and then you're seperated from them for a bit before you reach your own final understanding and are united with your god and your loved ones once and for all.
I have no idea why the hell D&D is so determined to make the afterlife depressing.
I have no idea why the hell D&D is so determined to make the afterlife depressing.
To stop us all choosing a TPK so that we can enjoy the joyful hereafter?
Kelemvor says no
That's what OHG says:
On Hallowed Grounds, page 30-32
The basic goal of an petitioner is to become the ideal of his devotion. In other words, a spirit that reforms on a plane but not on a particular god's realm seeks only to merge with that plane - to become the ultimate representation of the land's alignment. [...] A spirit that takes shape in the realm of a power, though, is a bit more directed. Petitioners of realms don't want merely to merge with the plane, they want to achive union with their god. [...] Eventually, it's hoped, he reaches the end of the road, discovers the answers that eluded him in life, an merges with his plane or power. If he doesn't, chant is that he eventually fades away, with only the barrest essence of his devotion fueling the land's heart or the god's might. The most important thing to remember about a petitioner is this: The basher's always, always looking for a way to join his plane or power. It doesn't matter what else he's doing; that goal always lurks in the corner of his brain box and he bends all his efforts toward achieving it. [...] Why do the great powers if measly petitioners merge with them or not? [...] And a power who receives petitioners receives distilled belief. [...] A petitioner who merges with her power doesn't lose her identity fully; it remains an integral part of the union, something that gives more strength to the god. Her personality is subsumed into the power's and she becomes one of the voices in his head. The god maintains his force of will, the petitoner (to a lesser extend) maintains hers. [...] The odd thing about this is that every petitioner who ever merged with the power feels the same. They all feel like the driving force behind the god's mind, and because they all believe it, they're all correct.
I'd have to wonder if the dieties often send their dead followers back to the land of living after a few generations..
Yay! Someone brought it back towards being FR specific. So looking at the FR specific rules can we say why gods now cannot withdraw their powers as they were once able to?
A clarifiaction could be that earlier, the deities restricted that access through manioulkation (Mystra allowing) of the Weave. With the weave gone, they have no means to severe the connection (or it may now be moee trouble than they are willing to expend).
Btw: as a player, I would not expect my PCs' deity to drop dead that quickly, so normally the death of deity's should not be a concern in play (the fact that FR deities dropped like flies in the novels notwithstanding).
Also every god ever has a truly epic case of MPD. That's the real reason Labelas went nuts during the ToT, he was temporarily all by himself and the lonliness drove him mad.
Also every god ever has a truly epic case of MPD. That's the real reason Labelas went nuts during the ToT, he was temporarily all by himself and the lonliness drove him mad.
That does explain alot.
I'd say it was just easier to hide on the Planes... he's still nucking futs wherever he is. Just like all those murderous bastards in the Seldarine. 
Btw: as a player, I would not expect my PCs' deity to drop dead that quickly, so normally the death of deity's should not be a concern in play (the fact that FR deities dropped like flies in the novels notwithstanding).
Well, my first impulse to the statement "in case of deity death" was to answer something like that this should be the last thing a mere mortal needs to concern himself with, but then I remembered we're talking about the FR and
My first impulse to that statement was to suggest that it should then be considered as a matter of Realmslore itself and not in terms of its likelihood while being subordinated to the game
A clarifiaction could be that earlier, the deities restricted that access through manioulkation (Mystra allowing) of the Weave. With the weave gone, they have no means to severe the connection (or it may now be moee trouble than they are willing to expend).
Aye, Gomeztoo. I think I saw Rich Baker over on the Ask the Designers thread saying the weave made maintaining and severing the Power to clerics easier.
>Planes
>Time of Troubles
HERP A DERP
We're not going back to that whole D-STD discussion again, are we?
A clarifiaction could be that earlier, the deities restricted that access through manioulkation (Mystra allowing) of the Weave. With the weave gone, they have no means to severe the connection (or it may now be moee trouble than they are willing to expend).
Aye, Gomeztoo. I think I saw Rich Baker over on the Ask the Designers thread saying the weave made maintaining and severing the Power to clerics easier.
How much easier it is for now ? =)
And some oftop- (people in another thread couldn't give normal answer ) :
Do "Deva Herritage" feature plus with 30-th lvl Exalted Angel's epic destiny feature? I mean penalty for atack roll against PC. So the penalty for enemies become 4 to atack rolls?
What advantages do PC take if he Hover?
a flying pc that takes over can hover 50' over a battle feild and use a repeating crossbow and rain death on the battle field, and or use a bow with a quiver with unlimited ammo, and use ranged spelllike abilities on enemies.
you know you see the ulmited arrow quiver, but you never see a reopeating crossboww with unlimited ammo
O.K. and for what things PC would be imune in hover? Like melee atack
well in 3e they got an ac bonus.
you would also have the what goes up must come down as far as throwing stars, arrows, bolts, any weapon that can be thrown.
what you have to worry about is swooping in and getting caught in airborne nets or other goning to knock you dwon, such as the former dont know if its till around or not wingbind spell.
in 4e.....well I'd assume that flying creatures still getthat bonus.....
so hovoer would only be good if your beyond the reach of things that make you drop.
bolows do come to mind there too.
remember, never stay in one place, dont over in the same place for more than 2 rounds
well in 3e they got an ac bonus.
you would also have the what goes up must come down as far as throwing stars, arrows, bolts, any weapon that can be thrown.
what you have to worry about is swooping in and getting caught in airborne nets or other goning to knock you dwon, such as the former dont know if its till around or not wingbind spell.
in 4e.....well I'd assume that flying creatures still getthat bonus.....
so hovoer would only be good if your beyond the reach of things that make you drop.
bolows do come to mind there too.
remember, never stay in one place, dont over in the same place for more than 2 rounds
And are there imune for traps that activates in step? Terrain on th earth? Close powers melee powers?
Or all powers that are close, area, blast burst damage in any way hovering creature even if it is high enough?
flying over a trap that you have to step on, you are not immune to, you just are above it so you bypassed it all together.
however, you ever hear of the trap that uses a fishline as a clothesline, this is a touch trap, it would nail a flying character if high enough.
as for powers, single or aoe well, well that depends, on dm...
flying over a trap that you have to step on, you are not immune to, you just are above it so you bypassed it all together.
however, you ever hear of the trap that uses a fishline as a clothesline, this is a touch trap, it would nail a flying character if high enough.
as for powers, single or aoe well, well that depends, on dm...
Oh, and melee atack from the earth hits or not the hover character who fly above him, also depends on DM? I can't believe that there not rulls in books....sounds like hovering is somekind of useless thing al most then...
common sense rule:
if its out of reach a melee attack, wont hit you.
that stated, you cant hit an opponent with a melee attack either
common sense rule:
if its out of reach a melee attack, wont hit you.
that stated, you cant hit an opponent with a melee attack either
So hovering helps in a such way:
Nobody on the earth could make a melee atack against flying PC
When Hovering PC go by over somebody on the eath he don't provoke oportunitie atack.
If there any earth dif. terrain hover PC don't get penalties from it.
If trap on the earth include step to activate it, hover PC don't activate it.
Is it all or may be smth more?
Sory guys for that oftop questions, but you are one of the most experienced whom I met here =) And questions go from divine epic destiny( Exalted Angel) so I decided to write here after all. =)))
So hovering helps in a such way:
Nobody on the earth could make a melee atack against flying PC
When Hovering PC go by over somebody on the eath he don't provoke oportunitie atack.
If there any earth dif. terrain hover PC don't get penalties from it.
If trap on the earth include step to activate it, hover PC don't activate it.
Is it all or may be smth more?
I think thats it, yes. Nothing else comes to mind.
Not bad enough at least.
At least Exalted Angel is interesting roleplay character.
Don't like that Divine EP in DP - avatars. They are powerfull -yes, but bad for roleplay and especially for FR world as for me.
I think it woun't be forbidden in FR by the way to be Exalted Angel?
Nah i dont see any reason for it to be forbidden. I say go for it!
And Silver_Sword, do Deva Herritage util. power "AStral Splendor" plus its penalties to atack roll for atackers with 30-lvl feature of Exalted Angel penalties for atack roll?
And what about covers from hovering character?
Example- Goblin stand behind a wall, which are not very high but enough for a cover for him. Standing on the earth PC get penalties to atack him from cover, and what about hovering character who fly high enough to see it well even behind that wall?
And Silver_Sword, do Deva Herritage util. power "AStral Splendor" plus its penalties to atack roll for atackers with 30-lvl feature of Exalted Angel penalties for atack roll?
And what about covers from hovering character?
Example- Goblin stand behind a wall, which are not very high but enough for a cover for him. Standing on the earth PC get penalties to atack him from cover, and what about hovering character who fly high enough to see it well even behind that wall?
Yes I belive Deva Heritage + 30th Level Exalted Angel would stack, giving eneimies a -4 to hit you. I think thats right, untyped bonus do stack right?
As for the Goblin with cover, it depends how high the wall is and how high you are hovering.
And Silver_Sword, do Deva Herritage util. power "AStral Splendor" plus its penalties to atack roll for atackers with 30-lvl feature of Exalted Angel penalties for atack roll?
And what about covers from hovering character?
Example- Goblin stand behind a wall, which are not very high but enough for a cover for him. Standing on the earth PC get penalties to atack him from cover, and what about hovering character who fly high enough to see it well even behind that wall?
Yes I belive Deva Heritage + 30th Level Exalted Angel would stack, giving eneimies a -4 to hit you. I think thats right, untyped bonus do stack right?
As for the Goblin with cover, it depends how high the wall is and how high you are hovering.
And how to understand is PC high enough?
Well im not sure, doesnt it say how high the hover is? If not than I would assume its just enough off the ground that youre not actually touching it. So in that case the goblin would still have cover.
It doesnt specificaly state the range of the hover? Like you can hover so many feet off the ground or anything?
I have a
Moon elf
paladin/champion of corellon larethian/exalted angel planned.
sounds like a good concept.
I have a
Moon elf
paladin/champion of corellon larethian/exalted angel planned.
sounds like a good concept.
Yes it does, but what about the hovering thing? It doesnt actually tell you how high you can go or anything?
if anything does, it would be in a book I dont own.
I dont own the dm 1 or 2( although the dmg 2 is interesting), either MM or any of the dragon books.
okay it only lasts to the end of the next turn or the end of the current turn.
and no the divine power does not mention it.
I'm off to look at he phbII and ahve a look at th e one there.
okay from looking at the dragonborn gets to fly pp, they all state must land at specific time either at the end of current turn or end of next turn.
its the same for the favored soul as well.
my only other character that flies is a
windsoul monk/ wirlwind?/ ???? cant rememeber its name.
the winstorm pp allows for flight and some others for x amount of time but no wings..
but it too, x amount of time or else
So they dont just get hover they get flight as well?
they all get temp flight, well during the enocunter anyway.
as for hover, you know I need to go check something at the demo of the rules compendium on this.
I might get to see it..but....
okay as far as the compendium is concerned, there is no hover feat. so.... its just flight.
O.K. and for what things PC would be imune in hover? Like melee atack
You're not "immune" to anything, you'll just be out of reach for most enemies. If an enemy can fly as well, he can melee attack you.
And are there imune for traps that activates in step? Terrain on th earth?
Only if they are already flying when stepping on the trap/terrain. If you're a flyer with hover and walk on a pit trap, you fall and take damage like anybody else, you do not automatically start flying/hovering as soon you lose the ground under your feet. Exeption is if the sudden fall is longer than 20 squares, in this case you only fall 20 squares and then can try an athletics check to stop falling.
Close powers melee powers?
No, although you may be out of range for many opponents
Or all powers that are close, area, blast burst damage in any way hovering creature even if it is high enough?
If the power reches high enough it affects the hovering creature normally, if not it's merely a matter of being out of range.
If trap on the earth include step to activate it, hover PC don't activate it.
Only if you were already hovering before, if you were walking you fall like anyone else.
okay from looking at the dragonborn gets to fly pp, they all state must land at specific time either at the end of current turn or end of next turn.
Actually it's even worse, the Dragonborn has to land at the end of his move action.
Note that once the dragonborn get's his overland flight ability he can also remain airborne indefinitely, yet he only as long as he does nothing but moving, he crashes as soon as he fights.
its the same for the favored soul as well.
It's not the same. The favored soul gains true flight and unlike the dragonborn does not need to land at the end of each move but can remain airborne indefinitely
So they dont just get hover they get flight as well?
Hover is the improved form of flight. Whenever you can hover, you can fly, whenever you can fly this doesn't automatically mean you can hover.
The three forms of permanent flight ability are:
Overland flight: fly indefinitely as long as you do nothing but move actions
Fly: fly indefinitely as long as you always move two squares every turn, can fight normally except for taking OAs or shift
Fly + hover: fly indefinitely, don't need any minimum movement, can fight normally and take OAs and shift
they all get temp flight, well during the enocunter anyway.
Except the favored soul, she get's permanent flight
okay as far as the compendium is concerned, there is no hover feat. so.... its just flight.
Correct, there is no feat that makes a PC improve his flight ability to hover. So you either get hover from your flight ability or you don't get it at all (at least in any permanent way, there are certain powers that enable you to hover temporarily)
Ahhh thank you Mirtek for clearing that up. So if you got hover then you can fly. I was thinking they could hover just off the ground.
Thank you Mirtek! But I wish to clear something more-
How to understand if power reaches high enough or not for deeling damage to hover creature? ( if it is not difficult for you answer please with some situiational examples, like range, blast, burst, area atack. )
How high could hover creature on open surface?
Thank you again for explanations. =)
According to the Monster Manual, creatures cant fly higher that their fly speed. so if their fly speed is 10 they couldnt fly higher than 50 feet.
Thanks Silver! And what about power's height understanding? =) Is it anywhere information about it?
well how far up you are would still count into your powers range. so if you was 50 feet up and your power had a range of 20 feet, any one on the ground would be out of range. As for a goblin behind a wall, if you flew higher than the wall and had line of sight to the goblin, that goblin would have no cover. I don't know if this is specifically covered by a rule or what page number it would be on, I am guessing.
By the way where are you from anyway? I keep making reference to feet and you probably use the metric system?
well how far up you are would still count into your powers range. so if you was 50 feet up and your power had a range of 20 feet, any one on the ground would be out of range. As for a goblin behind a wall, if you flew higher than the wall and had line of sight to the goblin, that goblin would have no cover. I don't know if this is specifically covered by a rule or what page number it would be on, I am guessing.
By the way where are you from anyway? I keep making reference to feet and you probably use the metric system?
I am from Ukraine =) May be someday I will make a real community here for D&D fans in my country , because we don't have even shops with D&D staf in my city only there are one or two in capital of our country- Kiev. Even there are not enough staf always so I have ordered my staf throw Russia from USA. =)) And I know A LOT OF people who wish to play D&D, so I took a role of emisar or smth like that. =))) My English knowledge helps me to communicate free with you guys and I am glad for that. =)
Well that sucks that you dont have D&D stores over there. Your english is very good by the way. Far, far better than my Ukrainian. So you use the metric system there right? I think the U.S. is really backwards in that regard I think we're the only country that still uses feet and inches. But any way im getting way off topic here.
Back to cleric powers!
Coming back to power's height =) Let's try to find out how to define it. I understand what happends in case of range power, but what about area, blast and burst.......
They would still work the same. Except blasts which specifically stat that it fills an area adjacent to you, so you couldn't hit any one on the ground with a blast, unless they was flying too and adjacent to you.
According to the Monster Manual, creatures cant fly higher that their fly speed. so if their fly speed is 10 they couldnt fly higher than 50 feet.
A monster can't fly higher than it's altitude limit, which may coincidence with it's flight speed or be higher/lower than it's fly speed. Monsters without an attitude limit can fly as high as they want.
As per the Compendium, from all of both MMs, the Draconomicon, the Eberron Campaign Setting and Dragon Magazine only a grand total of 7 monsters have an altitude limit, all other flying monsters are free to go as high as they want
They would still work the same. Except blasts which specifically stat that it fills an area adjacent to you, so you couldn't hit any one on the ground with a blast, unless they was flying too and adjacent to you.
Actually you could, your blast just needs to be large enough. If you're flying at height 3, you can hit the ground (and be hit from the ground) with blast 3+ powers (if we count ground level as height 0, if we count ground level as height 1 you only need a bast 2+ to hit someone at height 3)
O.K. Thank you let's check if I understood you correctly.
Example : Hovering highty of PC is 7 squares, so he flies above the earth on a height of 35 feets.
Here comes cleric's power flame strike which is a burst 2 within 10 squares of him, which means the power originates in a square up to 10 squares away from him and effects the origin square and every square within 2 squares of it ( 5x5 square area) So power's height is also 5 squares and it doesn't damage that hovering PC with 7 squares above earth. Right?
And are there some kind of usual standart to count earth as 0 or 1 height?
And are there some real rules about power's height or it just goes from it's usual description and understanding from PHB ?
Here comes cleric's power flame strike which is a burst 2 within 10 squares of him, which means the power originates in a square up to 10 squares away from him and effects the origin square and every square within 2 squares of it ( 5x5 square area) So power's height is also 5 squares and it doesn't damage that hovering PC with 7 squares above earth. Right?
The power affects a 5x5x5 cube area and it can affect the flyer since the cleric can have the power's origin square be in the air right next to (or at) the flyer's square. You're right insofar as that the power would not reach high enough to hit the flyer if the cleric would chose to have it originate from the ground below the flyer, but since it can originate anywhere within 10 squares the cleric can have it detonate from the up in the air too.
If the cleric makes the power start at ground level it only affects a 4x5x5 cube area, as the bottom row of the affected cubes would be below ground, so for maximum area affected such burst should always be started one square above groundlevel
And are there some real rules about power's height or it just goes from it's usual description and understanding from PHB ?
The most common agreement is to just threat everything as cubes. So a blast 3 affectes a 3x3x3 area. While it's not the most elegant solution for characters (since fighting in a 5-feet-square is fine for a medium creature but fighting in a 5-feet-cube is very strange), it's the best solution for determining affected areas. This also can be easily supported by RAW
burst: [...]is a specified number of squares on a side. -> z-axis is just as much a side as x- and y-axis
blast: [...]extends in all directions to a specified number of squares from the origin square. -> once again up and down are as much directions as are left and right
walls: well, these are a little tricky and from RAW one could either argue that they're as high as they're long or that they just have a fixed number of cubes and if you chose to pile them high, you just lose length for doing so (either your wall 10 is 1x10x10 cubes or it's just 10 cubes that you could either pile 1x1x10 or 1x5x2 as long as you don't use more than 10 cubes)
The crunched humans trying to fight within their 5-feet-cubes are the unfortunate side effect
Thank you a lot Mirtek for explanations!
Now I understand that the main priority when hovering- is a good chance to be on a big distance from foes, so they could not use any powers except of far ranged. Surely they can use blast, and burst but I could be far from their's power reach even if they can choose starting point for blast in a sky- I have a good chance to avoid it just taking some more distance.
Here it is Rich Baker's answer on my question about FR cleric's powers. He answered in PM to me. Thanks him for attention.
I think the best way to look at it is like this: When you become a cleric, you go through a ceremony in which you are given all the divine energy you will ever use for spellcasting. How you wield that divine energy is a matter of your own training and your personal faith. You aren't really channeling energy from some other place or source. (We did this so that clerics would have the ability to act contrary to their deity's interests; this means you can have evil clerics as bad guys in a good deity's church, for example.)
Ahhh interesting stuff there.
It become even more interesting and useful that we thought. =)
The thing we need is worshiping deity on a moment of ritual and then we are on our own and our power don't depends on deity and source- it is just have been allready put in us during ritual- that part of divinity from Astral Sea or from deity itself.
Hmm.I disagree with Rich's suggestion.
Imbuing somone with 'all the power he ever needs' does not sound to me to work mechanically. Where do you store all that power? And how do you know its enough? How do you do this with clerical undead?
No, I'll keep to the idea that you channel energy from a deity, who can't sever the connection once established buts till acts as a conduit. I like there to be consequences for deity death, and I like the idea that you channel it from a deity, whether you faithfully serve it or not.
Gomez
May be cleric gets that power in him during the ritual, but it won't work good enough with out of training and training and more experience etc...I like that idea with giving powers in time of ritual, but also I would for example surely worship and thank deity that give me power and faith.
Well that power stores from deity or Astral Sea thanks to deity.
It is not by cleric to decide enough or not, but with his faith and again powers could be oppened fully only after a lot of experience and training- using divine spells. ( IMO)
Here it is another question from me :
"The divine power lore has changed since 3.5 edition in Forgotten Realms right? Because earlier it was the only way to have power source for clerics- was to get it from his deity directly. From your answer I understood that for now( in 4E FR) cleric's powers don't depend from deity after it was activated.
Even if deity dies or loses it's divine status - cleric don't lose his powers because it was given to him powers for a hall life using, right?
Because if get as an example times when Lloth's priests lost their powers because of Llots's will - then deity could took given powers back from his folowers. Is that rule don't work for now and cleric's power source could not be taken away?"
And answer from Mr. Baker:
"You are correct -- this is a change from the way clerics received their magic in 3rd Edition (and previous editions).
Regarding Lolth's Silence (and the War of the Spider Queen), remember that all occured more than 10 years before the Spellplague, the death of Mystra, and the changes in the way magic worked in Faerun. So while Lolth's Silence was possible in the era of 3rd Edition Realms, it wouldn't really be possible in the same way in the era of 4th Edition Realms."
Thank you for attention Mr. R. Baker!
Still doesn't sound right to me.
Or me either.
There are many examples of peoples in the Realms worshipping things other than gods. Worshippers of the Elemental lords (Primordials) for instance, Beholder cults, cults dedicated to dead gods, and they were all able to cast spells. In some cases those prayers were answered by other gods (Tiamat had a habit of doing that alot), but still i see faith and belief holding a great deal of power, while i dont see a potted plant granting powers perhaps Nature itself would. I also find it interesting that cults of AO never ever got any spells. I mean those beholder cult guys got some spells, but its like AO went out of his way to block any one from casting any spells in his name. With the changes in 4e, where the power now comes from the cleric and not directly from the god i wonder if it would now be possible to have a spell casting cleric of AO.
Interesting statement! You could come up with any kind of cult to support the statement and there are a lot. Just name it and I make a fair bet it exists somewhere in the cosmology. How do demons and devils grant spells? By defintion they are not divine entities, they hold no portolios! They do not count as "quasi divine entities" either, since they lack a divine ranking altogether, but still cults have been mentioned to exist which do worship them and seem to receive spells.
It become even more interesting and useful that we thought. =)
The thing we need is worshiping deity on a moment of ritual and then we are on our own and our power don't depends on deity and source- it is just have been allready put in us during ritual- that part of divinity from Astral Sea or from deity itself.
I just do not like the idea that clerics are fully fuelled tanks and everyone else is just an empty tank.^^
To me most of the theories about the divine power source do not satisfy me. I see it this way:
Divine magic is "the Force". It is everywhere, it surrounds us, it pervades us, it creates life and holds all the things together. It's just a matter of "awareness" in an intuitive sense to "feel" its ebb and flow. And to "control" it is more a matter of "willpower". You make a spell "happen" by believing that it will happen where and in the way you have "foreseen". Divine magic isn't cast it "takes place". And while you "call" it you may speak prayers or make some fancy moves, but the difference to arcane magic is, there is no formula, there isn't a way to make it "right". The words you say or the things you do, do not really matter. What matters is the emotional energy you put into your action. As you are a part of the universe yourself its just a matter of convincing yourself that it will happen and through you the universe as a whole will believe it too and thus it will not just remain your reality it will become the universe's reality.
Speakin of the Beast Cults I ran across this while flipping through an old issue of Dragon Magazine, #54 to be exact and I came across this listing of Beastlords of the Forgotten Realms.
Beastlord Name
Title; Portfolio; Alignment; Rank; Home Plane
ASLAN
Lord Firemane; Lord of Lions, Strong Beasts; LG; Lesser God; Seven Heavens
BESPARR
---;Lord of Horses ;CG ;Demigod ;Prime Material
CAMAZOTZ
--- ;Lord of Bats; CE; Lesser God; Prime Material
FILEET
---; Lady of the Birds; CN; Demigoddess; Prime Material
HAAASHASTAAK
--- ;Master of All Lizardkind; N ;Demigod; Prime Material
HLYYAAK
---; King of Camels; CG; Demigod; Prime Material
LOLTH
---; Demon Queen of Spiders; CE; Lesser Goddess; Abyss
LURUE
Silverymoon; Queen of Talking Beasts, Intelligent Creatures; CG; Lesser Goddess; Olympus
MEERCLAR
---; Mistress of Catkind; CN; Demigoddess; Prime Material
NNUUURRRR'C'C
King With Wings; Master of the Insect Swarm; N; Demigod; Prime Material
NURU-AH
---; Master of Cattle; N; Demigod; Prime Material
PYARAY
Whisperer of Impossible Secrets ;Creatures of the Deep, Lord of the Ocean Abysses; CE; Lesser God; Prime Material
REPRA
--- ;King of Serpents; CE; Demigod; Abyss
ROOFDRAK
---; Master of All Dogs; N; Demigod; Prime Material
SNEEL
The Great Rat; Lord of Rats; CE; Lesser God; Prime Material
The Realms gods were all listed too, The 1e ones any way, and Tyche is listed instead of Tymora and Beshaba. The Elemental Lords are listed as well but they all have different names:
Grome: Earth
Kakatal: Fire
Misha: Air
Straasha: Water
I just might start using those names in my own campaign.
I have to agree with the people expressing their dislike for Rich Baker's explanation and I can't wait until it will be used as an argument to get priest of dead deities allowed in LFR.
Also the part about "all the power ever needed" just seems so wrong. So either the deities are now more clairvoyant than in earlier editions or investing in a cleric is actually mostly just a terrible waste of power (since all these guys never making it past level 5 still have to be imbued with all the power a level 30 cleric ever needs just in case they make it that far)
NNUUURRRR'C'C
Now, there's a keeper.
NNUUURRRR'C'CNow, there's a keeper.
Indeed! Im not even sure how to pronounce that. After further reading of that article I realized that most are not Realms orginals, but taken from the old Deities & Demigods book, except for Bespar, Hlyyaak and Lurue which are Realms original, And of course Aslan, which everyone knows is from Narnia.
The Elemental Lords are from Moor**** Elric Pantheon, so perhaps I wont be using them after all.
Edit: How insulting! It censoreed Michael Moorc o c k's name! Thats so stupid. **** is not even a bad word, its a rooster, get you minds outta the gutter WotC!
That is indeed a very anemic answer from Rich... I guess it works for 4e's logic, but it still sounds stupid as hell for a supposedly divine source to me. I don't see much difference between that and an arcane source when it comes down to it, beyond semantics anyway.
Postscript...
Really very stupid to censor out the name of a pretty damned influential writer for the whole D&D genre...
Yes thats what I was thinking. I just brought up Moorcock in off topic tavern but it didnt censor me there. But I couldnt say ****ss. Go figure!
Edit: Well now I can say Moorcock? Maybe they realized the error of their ways?
But I still cant say Gu i nn e ss. What up with that?
Heh, guess the boards just hate you...
I think I can say Moorcock just not Moor**** ?
Yup thats it. If I put an 's at the end it blocks it out. That is so stupid.
Could be because he has a different publisher... okay, so I'm reaching there, but still...
With the changes in 4e, where the power now comes from the cleric and not directly from the god i wonder if it would now be possible to have a spell casting cleric of AO.
Aha...so now power comes not from a god, but from cleric itself and then he decide in which god's name to spell it- right?
Well, the cleric gets his/her power from a ritual performed by other members of the faith who already possess divine power. But the latter part of the statement is correct: it's then entirely up to the cleric to use it as s/he wishes, even in a heretical manner.
Sorry for ressurecting an old thread -- but is this right? It doesn't seem right. On the one hand, the player's handbook says:
As a cleric, your deity does not directly grant you powers. Instead, your ordination or investiture as a cleric grants you the ability to wield divine powers.
Yet it describes the divine power source like this:
Divine: Divine magic comes from the gods. The gods grant power to their devotees, which clerics and paladins, for example, access through prayers and litanies. Divine magic excels at healing, protection, and smiting the enemies of the gods. Divine powers are called prayers.
So, you access divine powers "through prayers and litanies." It makes me think that the initial quote makes a distinction without a difference-- I mean, if you access your powers by praying to your deity, how is your deity not granting you your powers?
Even if it does work this way in the core setting, does it work this way in FR?
And, this whole conversation aside, it does not follow that the power *comes from* you. It comes from the gods. If your god gets killed or if you stop worshipping your god, the well has run dry, no?