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Comparative power levels

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
krownhunter07
Apr 24, 2009 16:14:31 LK's threads in the lore section brought up an interesting speculated observation. So, instead of taking the threads off-topic, I though it best to start a new thread.

So, I'd like to discuss the power levels of different groups of greater powers. I'd also like to see the difference between 3e's and 4e's power levels for the known groups of the two editions.

This is not intended to be an edition war or anything like that, just compiling the base information of greater powers for both edition and comparing the two based off the differences (IE; Orcus is to Vecna is to an Archfey, between 3e and 4e).

Here is a basic list of all stated greater powers in 4e.

Terpenzi 30 Controller Solo Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide

Tarrasque 30 Brute Solo Monster Manual

Nefermandias, Ancient Brown Dragon 31 Artillery,Leader Solo Draconomicon

Maglubiyet, the Mighty One 32 Brute Solo Dragon Magazine 372

Grazzt 32 Controller Solo Manual of the Planes

Blazing Rorn the Fury 33 Brute Solo Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide

Orcus 33 Leader,Brute Solo Monster Manual

Mual-Tar 35 Brute Solo Dragon Magazine 370

Vecna 35 Controller,Leader Solo Open Grave

*and The Prince of Frost 31 level solo Controller in the Court of Stars article from today.

So far, from these, it shows that Archfey, Primordials and Deities and around the same level of power from each other as well as some mortal creatures of great power.

These are all solos, feel free to add Elites I missed and their 3e namesakes or other 3e creatures of equal power of deities.
#2
Stigger
Apr 24, 2009 16:29:51 Vecna? Isn't he Grayhawk, not Realms? Well, I know he's not in the Realms, at least pre Spellplague...

As to the rest, not familiar enough with 4e mechanics to offer much more than a good luck with that.
#3
krownhunter07
Apr 24, 2009 16:34:02
Vecna? Isn't he Grayhawk, not Realms? Well, I know he's not in the Realms, at least pre Spellplague...

As to the rest, not familiar enough with 4e mechanics to offer much more than a good luck with that.

You could list 3e related creatures and levels. this is mostly to compare the difference between power levels for things between editions.

Ex; take the difference between the 4e list to 3e. Vecna and Orcus in 4e is x, in 3e it is y...
#4
lord_karsus
Apr 24, 2009 22:13:52 -I don't quite understand. Relative or actual CR, is that what you mean?
#5
krownhunter07
Apr 25, 2009 8:02:35 ok... I wanted to see the difference between the levels for 'greater powers' for both editions, then compare them to each other.

Basically, take the level difference between, say, Orcus and the Tarrasque, from both 3e and 4e, then see the difference of comparative power.

Ex: Tarrasque is 30 solo, Orcus is 33 solo, both brutes in 4e.

In 3.x they are Tarrasque cr 20, Orcus cr 22 (codex 1) or 28 (BoVD)

After we get the general power difference between the creatures, we compare the differences between the two editions.

So, in this instance, the difference is either +1 Orcus 4e or +8 Orcus 3e.

Now, we do this for all the creatures we have in both editions, as well as other greater powers that are unique to one or the other (Ex, I'm not sure if we have stated Archfey in 3e, but we have one for 4e [Prince of Frost 31 solo controller] but we might use an Eladrin in 3e to compare with).

This is mostly to see two things. 1) If gods, demons, devils and other powerful beings are of equal power [in the same edition] and 2) If they stayed around the same level of power between editions.

I'm fairly certain that gods were, hands down, the most powerful beings in 3.x and now [in 4e] they are more on par with other powerful outsiders.

EDIT: I think relative cr is best. Judge their power based on their CR (4e doesn't have CR, but the level of a solo creature is what level a 5 party group should be at when they face it).
#6
keveras
Apr 25, 2009 8:34:27
I'm fairly certain that gods were, hands down, the most powerful beings in 3.x...

You're fairly wrong. Since deities in Deities & Demigods and Faiths & Pantheons got no CR it's quite hard to compare them to other creatures, but aside from that a few (even official) creatures would surpass the deities in personal power (e.g. fully advanced creatures found in the Epic Level Handbook).
And those are just the creatures that actually got stats. Fluff-wise, 3e lists entities that definitely are or at least might be above the deities.
If we're also going into fan-made creatures (or let's say non-WotC-creatures) you couldn't even be more wrong.

That said, you seem to have forgotten quite a few 4e guys:

Baphomet, Yeenoghu, Beleth, Dispater, Kyuss, and Tiamat. But since you loosely defined 'greater powers' I'm not sure if this was intentional or not (since most of them are below lvl 30).
#7
krownhunter07
Apr 25, 2009 8:43:29
You're fairly wrong. Since deities in Deities & Demigods and Faiths & Pantheons got no CR it's quite hard to compare them to other creatures, but aside from that a few (even official) creatures would surpass the deities in personal power (e.g. fully advanced creatures found in the Epic Level Handbook).
And those are just the creatures that actually got stats. Fluff-wise, 3e lists entities that definitely are or at least might be above the deities.
If we're also going into fan-made creatures (or let's say non-WotC-creatures) you couldn't even be more wrong.

I was mostly trying to stick with WotC stuff. Aside from that, I know ELH had some nasties in them, but wasn't sure if that made a difference against the gods.

Not having cr's is going to make things harder on us, though... Anyways, I could be wrong, I just remember divine powers (or power) that was/were an 'I win' button.

That said, you seem to have forgotten quite a few 4e guys:

Baphomet, Yeenoghu, Beleth, Dispater, Kyuss, and Tiamat. But since you loosely defined 'greater powers' I'm not sure if this was intentional or not (since most of them are below lvl 30).

Yeah, I didn't list all of them, you can if you like. The more we can get that both 3e and 4e have, the better.
#8
keveras
Apr 25, 2009 9:06:49
Not having cr's is going to make things harder on us, though.

If not impossible, if you insist on sticking with only official stuff. Maybe for deities, where's no official CR, just taking the stuff thats available?

Anyway, here I'm just listing the respective CRs/Lvls for a few guys:

Baphomet: 24 CR (Dragon #341)/28 Solo
Yeenoghu: 22 CR (BoVD)/28 Solo
Dispater: 26 CR (BoVD)/28 Solo
Kyuss: 20 CR (EE)/31 Solo
#9
krownhunter07
Apr 25, 2009 9:31:29 Nice, thank you. I'm grabbing my old books from the shelf and looking to see some other.

Everyone is welcome to add to the list.
#10
lord_karsus
Apr 25, 2009 10:37:22 -From Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss:

Baphomet: CR 20
Dagon: CR 22
Demogorgon: CR 23
Fraz-Urb'Luu: CR 21
Graz'zt: CR 22
Jubilex: CR 19
Kostchtchie: CR 21
Malcanthet: CR 21
Obox-Ob: CR 22
Orcus: CR 22
Pale Night: CR 21
Pazuzu: CR 22
Yeenoghu: CR 20
Zuggtmoy: CR 21

-Note that most agree that these numbers represent "avatars" of these Demon Lords.
#11
keveras
Apr 25, 2009 12:02:53
-Note that most agree that these numbers represent "avatars" of these Demon Lords.

Right. It's even mentioned that these are the CRs for their aspects, not for the true demon lords.

Anyway, even though most of the following guys didn't appear in 4e yet, here's a list of official 3e entities (archdevils, demon lords, celestial hebdomad, court of stars, talisid and his gang, elder evils) together with their CR (not including the CRs of the aspects found in the Fiendish Codex I + II):

CR 20 Juiblex (BoVD)
CR 20 Bel
CR 20 Manath
CR 21 Kezef
CR 21 Bazim-Gorag
CR 22 Barachiel
CR 22 Yeenoghu (BoVD)
CR 22 Geryon
CR 22 Hag Countess
CR 22 Kharash
CR 22 Ityak-Ortheel
CR 23 Soneillon
CR 24 Domiel
CR 24 Graz'zt (BoVD; Dragon: CR 32)
CR 24 Pazuzu (BoVD WE; Dragon: CR 29)
CR 24 Rhyxali (BoVD WE)
CR 24 Belial/Fierna (BoVD)
CR 24 Vhara
CR 24 Baphomet (Dragon)
CR 25 Erathaol
CR 25 Mammon
CR 25 Levistus
CR 25 Zuggtmoy (Dragon)
CR 25 Ardat (Dragon #359)
CR 25 Dwiergus (Dragon #359)
CR 26 Wendonai
CR 26 Pistis Sophia
CR 26 Dendar
CR 26 Dispater
CR 26 Gwynharwyf
CR 26 Sathia
CR 26 Lascer (Dragon #359)
CR 27 Malkizid
CR 28 Raziel
CR 28 Eltab
CR 28 Fraz-Urb'luu (Dragon)
CR 28 Orcus (BoVD; had some other stats in Dungeon #142 afaik)
CR 28 Bharrai
CR 28 Kostchtchie (Dragon)
CR 28 Malcanthet (Dragon)
CR 28 Shaktari (Dragon #359)
CR 29 Sealtiel
CR 29 Baalzebul
CR 29 Mephistopheles
CR 29 Faerinaal
CR 30 Demogorgon (BoVD; Dragon CR 33)
CR 30 Talisid
CR 30 Dagon (Dragon)
CR 30 Ugudenk (Dragon #359)
CR 31 Morwel
CR 32 Zaphkiel
CR 32 Asmodeus

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 krownhunter07 Apr 24, 2009 16:14:31	LK's threads in the lore section brought up an interesting speculated observation. So, instead of taking the threads off-topic, I though it best to start a new thread. So, I'd like to discuss the power levels of different groups of greater powers. I'd also like to see the difference between 3e's and 4e's power levels for the known groups of the two editions. This is not intended to be an edition war or anything like that, just compiling the base information of greater powers for both edition and comparing the two based off the differences (IE; Orcus is to Vecna is to an Archfey, between 3e and 4e). Here is a basic list of all stated greater powers in 4e. Terpenzi 30 Controller Solo Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide Tarrasque 30 Brute Solo Monster Manual Nefermandias, Ancient Brown Dragon 31 Artillery,Leader Solo Draconomicon Maglubiyet, the Mighty One 32 Brute Solo Dragon Magazine 372 Grazzt 32 Controller Solo Manual of the Planes Blazing Rorn the Fury 33 Brute Solo Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide Orcus 33 Leader,Brute Solo Monster Manual Mual-Tar 35 Brute Solo Dragon Magazine 370 Vecna 35 Controller,Leader Solo Open Grave and The Prince of Frost 31 level solo Controller in the Court of Stars* article from today. So far, from these, it shows that Archfey, Primordials and Deities and around the same level of power from each other as well as some mortal creatures of great power. These are all solos, feel free to add Elites I missed and their 3e namesakes or other 3e creatures of equal power of deities.
#2 Stigger Apr 24, 2009 16:29:51	Vecna? Isn't he Grayhawk, not Realms? Well, I know he's not in the Realms, at least pre Spellplague... As to the rest, not familiar enough with 4e mechanics to offer much more than a good luck with that.
#3 krownhunter07 Apr 24, 2009 16:34:02	Vecna? Isn't he Grayhawk, not Realms? Well, I know he's not in the Realms, at least pre Spellplague... As to the rest, not familiar enough with 4e mechanics to offer much more than a good luck with that. You could list 3e related creatures and levels. this is mostly to compare the difference between power levels for things between editions. Ex; take the difference between the 4e list to 3e. Vecna and Orcus in 4e is x, in 3e it is y...
#4 lord_karsus Apr 24, 2009 22:13:52	-I don't quite understand. Relative or actual CR, is that what you mean?
#5 krownhunter07 Apr 25, 2009 8:02:35	ok... I wanted to see the difference between the levels for 'greater powers' for both editions, then compare them to each other. Basically, take the level difference between, say, Orcus and the Tarrasque, from both 3e and 4e, then see the difference of comparative power. Ex: Tarrasque is 30 solo, Orcus is 33 solo, both brutes in 4e. In 3.x they are Tarrasque cr 20, Orcus cr 22 (codex 1) or 28 (BoVD) After we get the general power difference between the creatures, we compare the differences between the two editions. So, in this instance, the difference is either +1 Orcus 4e or +8 Orcus 3e. Now, we do this for all the creatures we have in both editions, as well as other greater powers that are unique to one or the other (Ex, I'm not sure if we have stated Archfey in 3e, but we have one for 4e [Prince of Frost 31 solo controller] but we might use an Eladrin in 3e to compare with). This is mostly to see two things. 1) If gods, demons, devils and other powerful beings are of equal power [in the same edition] and 2) If they stayed around the same level of power between editions. I'm fairly certain that gods were, hands down, the most powerful beings in 3.x and now [in 4e] they are more on par with other powerful outsiders. EDIT: I think relative cr is best. Judge their power based on their CR (4e doesn't have CR, but the level of a solo creature is what level a 5 party group should be at when they face it).
#6 keveras Apr 25, 2009 8:34:27	I'm fairly certain that gods were, hands down, the most powerful beings in 3.x... You're fairly wrong. Since deities in Deities & Demigods and Faiths & Pantheons got no CR it's quite hard to compare them to other creatures, but aside from that a few (even official) creatures would surpass the deities in personal power (e.g. fully advanced creatures found in the Epic Level Handbook). And those are just the creatures that actually got stats. Fluff-wise, 3e lists entities that definitely are or at least might be above the deities. If we're also going into fan-made creatures (or let's say non-WotC-creatures) you couldn't even be more wrong. That said, you seem to have forgotten quite a few 4e guys: Baphomet, Yeenoghu, Beleth, Dispater, Kyuss, and Tiamat. But since you loosely defined 'greater powers' I'm not sure if this was intentional or not (since most of them are below lvl 30).
#7 krownhunter07 Apr 25, 2009 8:43:29	You're fairly wrong. Since deities in Deities & Demigods and Faiths & Pantheons got no CR it's quite hard to compare them to other creatures, but aside from that a few (even official) creatures would surpass the deities in personal power (e.g. fully advanced creatures found in the Epic Level Handbook). And those are just the creatures that actually got stats. Fluff-wise, 3e lists entities that definitely are or at least might be above the deities. If we're also going into fan-made creatures (or let's say non-WotC-creatures) you couldn't even be more wrong. I was mostly trying to stick with WotC stuff. Aside from that, I know ELH had some nasties in them, but wasn't sure if that made a difference against the gods. Not having cr's is going to make things harder on us, though... Anyways, I could be wrong, I just remember divine powers (or power) that was/were an 'I win' button. That said, you seem to have forgotten quite a few 4e guys: Baphomet, Yeenoghu, Beleth, Dispater, Kyuss, and Tiamat. But since you loosely defined 'greater powers' I'm not sure if this was intentional or not (since most of them are below lvl 30). Yeah, I didn't list all of them, you can if you like. The more we can get that both 3e and 4e have, the better.
#8 keveras Apr 25, 2009 9:06:49	Not having cr's is going to make things harder on us, though. If not impossible, if you insist on sticking with only official stuff. Maybe for deities, where's no official CR, just taking the stuff thats available? Anyway, here I'm just listing the respective CRs/Lvls for a few guys: Baphomet: 24 CR (Dragon #341)/28 Solo Yeenoghu: 22 CR (BoVD)/28 Solo Dispater: 26 CR (BoVD)/28 Solo Kyuss: 20 CR (EE)/31 Solo
#9 krownhunter07 Apr 25, 2009 9:31:29	Nice, thank you. I'm grabbing my old books from the shelf and looking to see some other. Everyone is welcome to add to the list.
#10 lord_karsus Apr 25, 2009 10:37:22	-From Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss: Baphomet: CR 20 Dagon: CR 22 Demogorgon: CR 23 Fraz-Urb'Luu: CR 21 Graz'zt: CR 22 Jubilex: CR 19 Kostchtchie: CR 21 Malcanthet: CR 21 Obox-Ob: CR 22 Orcus: CR 22 Pale Night: CR 21 Pazuzu: CR 22 Yeenoghu: CR 20 Zuggtmoy: CR 21 -Note that most agree that these numbers represent "avatars" of these Demon Lords.
#11 keveras Apr 25, 2009 12:02:53	-Note that most agree that these numbers represent "avatars" of these Demon Lords. Right. It's even mentioned that these are the CRs for their aspects, not for the true demon lords. Anyway, even though most of the following guys didn't appear in 4e yet, here's a list of official 3e entities (archdevils, demon lords, celestial hebdomad, court of stars, talisid and his gang, elder evils) together with their CR (not including the CRs of the aspects found in the Fiendish Codex I + II): CR 20 Juiblex (BoVD) CR 20 Bel CR 20 Manath CR 21 Kezef CR 21 Bazim-Gorag CR 22 Barachiel CR 22 Yeenoghu (BoVD) CR 22 Geryon CR 22 Hag Countess CR 22 Kharash CR 22 Ityak-Ortheel CR 23 Soneillon CR 24 Domiel CR 24 Graz'zt (BoVD; Dragon: CR 32) CR 24 Pazuzu (BoVD WE; Dragon: CR 29) CR 24 Rhyxali (BoVD WE) CR 24 Belial/Fierna (BoVD) CR 24 Vhara CR 24 Baphomet (Dragon) CR 25 Erathaol CR 25 Mammon CR 25 Levistus CR 25 Zuggtmoy (Dragon) CR 25 Ardat (Dragon #359) CR 25 Dwiergus (Dragon #359) CR 26 Wendonai CR 26 Pistis Sophia CR 26 Dendar CR 26 Dispater CR 26 Gwynharwyf CR 26 Sathia CR 26 Lascer (Dragon #359) CR 27 Malkizid CR 28 Raziel CR 28 Eltab CR 28 Fraz-Urb'luu (Dragon) CR 28 Orcus (BoVD; had some other stats in Dungeon #142 afaik) CR 28 Bharrai CR 28 Kostchtchie (Dragon) CR 28 Malcanthet (Dragon) CR 28 Shaktari (Dragon #359) CR 29 Sealtiel CR 29 Baalzebul CR 29 Mephistopheles CR 29 Faerinaal CR 30 Demogorgon (BoVD; Dragon CR 33) CR 30 Talisid CR 30 Dagon (Dragon) CR 30 Ugudenk (Dragon #359) CR 31 Morwel CR 32 Zaphkiel CR 32 Asmodeus