Song Dragons, as presented in Monsters of Faerun do not seem to have a male gender.
Their alternate form, according to the supplement, is always a human female, never a male. In the novel Elminster's Daughter When Vangerdahast is told by Myrmeen Lahl that a dragon is "digging out your sanctum like a dog after bones" she describes the offending dragon "the basic shape of a copper wyrm but blue in color" Vangerdahast (presumably succeeding his knowledge check) identifies it as a song dragon thusly "oh a song dragon, I wonder how her human form strikes the eye". It never seems to cross his mind that an attacking song dragon might be male.
This raises some reproductive issues naturally, some lizards are all female and reproduce through parthenogenesis however SPOILERS TO FOLLOW!
This particular song dragon has a daughter who is not a clone of herself but was conceived with the help of a certain old mage of Shadowdale. When Elminster encountered the thief Narnra Shalace, he seemed to cast some sort of identifying spell (best guess, the reader is not allowed a spellcraft check) that caused her blood to glow with a blue flame which he found interesting. When Narnra is being interrogated by Caladnei and Laspeera, they ask if her current form is her true one, she replies sarcastically "what else would it be" to which they remark to each other "what indeed?"
Perhaps song dragons reproduce with humans to create, not half dragons, but full blooded song dragons that are raised as humans until they can take on their "true" forms. Narnra, being only 20 years old would not be very impressive as a dragon yet.
This provides something of a prediction for the 4th edition realms as far as Cormyr is concerned. Could Narnra be a prominent NPC there? Perhaps even the new Mage Royal?
This provides something of a prediction for the 4th edition realms as far as Cormyr is concerned. Could Narnra be a prominent NPC there? Perhaps even the new Mage Royal?
I would certainly hope not. That character did nothing for me--in fact, she annoyed me.
Interesting about the song dragon thing though. I like the idea of human mating to establish offspring. It helps explain why they don't fit into the chromatic, metallic and gem arena. Which always bugged me.
I would certainly hope not. That character did nothing for me--in fact, she annoyed me.
Interesting about the song dragon thing though. I like the idea of human mating to establish offspring. It helps explain why they don't fit into the chromatic, metallic and gem arena. Which always bugged me.
I liked the cut of her jib
Also, the realms has 5 dragons which don't fit into the chromatic, metallic, gem wheel. Fang, Shadow, Deep, Song and Brown. I just call these dragons "Realms Specific".
I liked the cut of her jib
Also, the realms has 5 dragons which don't fit into the chromatic, metallic, gem wheel. Fang, Shadow, Deep, Song and Brown. I just call these dragons "Realms Specific".
Yeah, I'm aware. Brown I always classified as chromatic. Shadow I could deal with, because it can can sort of be seen as an "alter ego" of any basic wyrm. Fang and Deep make no sense to me.
"celebrate diversity" That's my motto, I guess.
I always wondered why you would have two "underdark" dragons with the Deep and Shadow dragons, they seem thematically very similar but it is a setting with thirty different sub-races of elves so I figure that fits.
Which makes me remember...is there a Purple dragon, as well, or is that the Deep dragon?
Which makes me remember...is there a Purple dragon, as well, or is that the Deep dragon?
The Purple Dragon of Cormyr was actually an ancient black dragon and his scales seemed to be purpleish. Was stated in Cormyr: A Novel I believe. He was ruler of those lands until some elf beat him in a dragon challenge of somekind. A one on one fight with certain rules and restrictions and not to the death. Civilized dragonkind.....who woulda thunk it?! Nice novel actually lots of realm lore for that geo graphical and political history.
The Purple Dragon of Cormyr was actually an ancient black dragon and his scales seemed to be purpleish. Was stated in Cormyr: A Novel I believe. He was ruler of those lands until some elf beat him in a dragon challenge of somekind. A one on one fight with certain rules and restrictions and not to the death. Civilized dragonkind.....who woulda thunk it?! Nice novel actually lots of realm lore for that geo graphical and political history.
Shortest thing you've said all night. ;)
Interesting to know.
But the dragon I am speaking of dwelt in the underdark and was mentioned in some novel about the drow. I'm thinking it was Cunningham's Daughter of the Drow, though it may have been an early War of the Spider Queen novel. It was a strange two-headed dragon, from what I remember.
Anyone?
Been a while.
The Purple Dragon of Cormyr was actually an ancient black dragon and his scales seemed to be purpleish. Was stated in Cormyr: A Novel I believe. He was ruler of those lands until some elf beat him in a dragon challenge of somekind.
-Correct.
But the dragon I am speaking of dwelt in the underdark and was mentioned in some novel about the drow. I'm thinking it was Cunningham's Daughter of the Drow, though it may have been an early War of the Spider Queen novel. It was a strange two-headed dragon, from what I remember.
Anyone?
Been a while.
-That was Zz’Pzora ("Zip"), a two-headed Deep Dragon.
-That was Zz’Pzora ("Zip"), a two-headed Deep Dragon.
Thank you, good sir.
You know what novel?
Thank you, good sir.
You know what novel?
Starlight and Shadows trilogy
- Daughter of the Drow
- Tangled Webs
- Windwalker
Perhaps others? I am not sure of that though.
Song dragons, neither chromatic or metalic. their humanoid form are mostly female.
Starlight and Shadows trilogy
- Daughter of the Drow
- Tangled Webs
- Windwalker
Thank you. Thought so. Been years though....
umm i thought the shadow dragon was planar and native to the plane of shadow( soon to be shadowfell) and entered Faerun through portals in the lower underdark?
Song dragons, neither chromatic or metalic. their humanoid form are mostly female.
Um...
You are correct twice.
Thank you, good sir.
You know what novel?
-Zip was featured in (and died in) Daughter of the Drow.
umm i thought the shadow dragon was planar and native to the plane of shadow( soon to be shadowfell) and entered Faerun through portals in the lower underdark?
-Correct.
-Zip was featured in (and died in) Daughter of the Drow.
-Correct.
You too slow!!
You too slow!!
You too slow!!
Ha-ha!!
You too slow!!
You too slow!!
You too slow!!
Ha-ha!!
-Nope. Archmagus_Ioulaum did not answer your question, which was specifically in which novel did Zip appear in. He provided an overview of the Starlight and Shadows trilogy, but did not answer your query. I did.
-Nope. Archmagus_Ioulaum did not answer your question, which was specifically in which novel did Zip appear in. He provided an overview of the Starlight and Shadows trilogy, but did not answer your query. I did.
You're so **** I'm buying a padlock for that **** place of mine.
I still give you no credit.
I still give you no credit.
-That's okay.
-Nope. Archmagus_Ioulaum did not answer your question, which was specifically in which novel did Zip appear in. He provided an overview of the Starlight and Shadows trilogy, but did not answer your query. I did.
Dang younguns these days! In my day we respected our elders. I was just haveing an oldstimers moment tis all......carry on you whippersnappers. :P
Sorry I do not really like to read her novels and have not bothered reading that specific trilogy.
-Uh huh...:whatsthis
Dammit!! Just give me a cup!
Other then that I have found nothing else out.
So far I have found NDAs about Song Dragons and what is going to happen to Elminster's Daughter. The only other mention I remembered and looked up was about Nurvureem the half shadow dragon/half song dragon. She takes drow form and is rumored to have ties to the destroyed drow city of Chaulssin. Jaezred Chaulssin comes to mind.
Other then that I have found nothing else out.
Thanks for destroying a beautiful dream.
The world was perfect until you busted in with your knowledge.
Can't we all just be stupid?
Thanks for destroying a beautiful dream.
The world was perfect until you busted in with your knowledge.
Can't we all just be stupid?
Stupid is easy though remaining "ignorant" is I believe the word your looking for. Ignorrance is bliss after all. ;)
Dammit!! Just give me a cup!
-Sure, have some.
:: Gives ::
So far I have found NDAs about Song Dragons and what is going to happen to Elminster's Daughter.
-Narna's future status, like most other NPCs, in currently in question.
The only other mention I remembered and looked up was about Nurvureem the half shadow dragon/half song dragon. She takes drow form and is rumored to have ties to the destroyed drow city of Chaulssin. Jaezred Chaulssin comes to mind.
-She is detailed in the Dragons of Faerûn web-enhancement PDF.
she also has an article devoted to her scaly hide
-Heh, an interesting way of putting it. ;)
Stupid is easy though remaining "ignorant" is I believe the word your looking for. Ignorrance is bliss after all. ;)
Eh. Stupid. Ignorant. One in the same.
-Sure, have some.
:: Gives ::
Why, thankee!
:whatsthis Mmmm...
Why, thankee!
:whatsthis Mmmm...
-French Vanilla Cappuccino.
-French Vanilla Cappuccino.
Knew it was something fancy like that. I feel high class.
I liked the cut of her jib
Also, the realms has 5 dragons which don't fit into the chromatic, metallic, gem wheel. Fang, Shadow, Deep, Song and Brown. I just call these dragons "Realms Specific".
THe Shining South also presents a dragon native to the deserts and hot climate of the south, the Rattler Dragon. You know, like the snake, but way bigger.
THe Shining South also presents a dragon native to the deserts and hot climate of the south, the Rattler Dragon. You know, like the snake, but way bigger.
I always thought that thing was cool.
-Do not forget all of the Wyrms and Wurms presented in the Draconomicon, and a specific DRAGON magazine that I cannot think of at the moment. Many have been seen in the Realms as well (Year of the Rogue Dragon books).
-That sounds cool.
Looks cool, too. There was a nice picture of it--you might be able to see its picture right in the WotC art gallery, if the pictures for the Shining South sourcebook are up.
Looks cool, too. There was a nice picture of it--you might be able to see its picture right in the WotC art gallery, if the pictures for the Shining South sourcebook are up.
-Just looked. That is pretty cool looking. Kinda rattle snake/cobra-esque.
I like snakes (especially desert snakes!), and meshing snake with dragon was a clever idea.Isn't the Draconomicon core? The new one and not the second-edition on, I mean.
Yes, it is. However, any dragon in that book could conceivably be found in the Realms, and indeed, many of the dragons therein have been included or referenced in the recent novels and anthologies centered around dragons.
Oh OK. That makes sense. At the same time, though, that means that writers could add things like Warforged or Changlings into the Forgotten Realms. I mean, its not like I dont like them, but I dont really think they fit. Same thing goes for some Dragons I'm sure. They dont fit. I dont have the Draconomicon though so...
Agreed. I preferred the structured approach with the chromatic, metallic and gem. I would prefer the others not be labeled "dragons" so much as "dragonkin."
Agreed. I preferred the structured approach with the chromatic, metallic and gem. I would prefer the others not be labeled "dragons" so much as "dragonkin."
Well, there was actually a seperate race called "dragonkin".
Agreed. I preferred the structured approach with the chromatic, metallic and gem. I would prefer the others not be labeled "dragons" so much as "dragonkin."
-What about Planar Dragons? No love for them? Mind you, they aren't "Misc. Dragons", as many others would be.
Well, there was actually a seperate race called "dragonkin".
I'm aware--just think that they can be clumped under the same category. Change their name, like you just did with the Aasimar, and all is right with the world.
-What about Planar Dragons? No love for them? Mind you, they aren't "Misc. Dragons", as many others would be.
Yeah. Shadow Dragons are personally my favorite. Planar's are fine, as long as there is some sort of structure and hierarchy involved in what establishes a true dragon compared to what makes a "dragonkin."
I'm aware--just think that they can be clumped under the same category. Change their name, like you just did with the Aasimar...
I didn't, WotC did.
I didn't, WotC did.
I...
(sigh)
...nevermind.
Oh, relax, it's fine.
Oh, I'm relaxed. In due time, you'll see that I don't get riled up all that easily...except where it comes to BejeBuz, of course. ;)
-Just looked. That is pretty cool looking. Kinda rattle snake/cobra-esque.
Just by reading the description, I got the need to implement it. A dragon that talks to its meal, and if the meal is lucky or knowledgeable enough (know something what the dragon doesn't and share it with him - it loves hoarding knowledge) he'll let them go. Plus the troupe would be very surprised that after hearing some rattling, something more than an usual snake approached them
Just by reading the description, I got the need to implement it. A dragon that talks to its meal, and if the meal is lucky or knowledgeable enough (know something what the dragon doesn't and share it with him - it loves hoarding knowledge) he'll let them go. Plus the troupe would be very surprised that after hearing some rattling, something more than an usual snake approached them
-Sounds almost like a Dragon-Sphinx.
Just by reading the description, I got the need to implement it. A dragon that talks to its meal, and if the meal is lucky or knowledgeable enough (know something what the dragon doesn't and share it with him - it loves hoarding knowledge) he'll let them go. Plus the troupe would be very surprised that after hearing some rattling, something more than an usual snake approached them
Oh...the torturing of PC's. Just love it.
You'd be best to have the "dragon" capture two PC's, then have them compete in a Jeopardy contest to see who doesn't end up lunch.
Meal time! :D
Oh...the torturing of PC's. Just love it.
You'd be best to have the "dragon" capture two PC's, then have them compete in a Jeopardy contest to see who doesn't end up lunch.
Meal time! :D
Sounds interesting
-Sounds almost like a Dragon-Sphinx.
Where can I find some info on that creature?
Sounds interesting
Where can I find some info on that creature?
sphinx with half dragon template
i always wonder if the song dragons were created by sylune since she could turn into a dragon.....
chromatic dragons:
Red
blue
black
green
white
brown
metallic
gold
silver
brass
bronze
Mercury(?)
copper
Steel
gem
diamond
emerald
topaz
you get the idea
planar
radiant
shadow
fang
force
prismatic
battle
ethreal
chaos
others:
sand
dragon turtle
Rust
Song
oceanus
draconic nature
dragonkin
wyvern
leviathan
half dragon
dragonborn 3e
dragonborn 4e
land wyrms
other draconic species
draconians
Hydras
just incase anyone cares
Where can I find some info on that creature?
-No, there isn't such thing. I was just saying...
just incase anyone cares
Too many, in my opinion. And wasn't there a platinum dragon? Or is that just for use in DL?
Too many, in my opinion. And wasn't there a platinum dragon? Or is that just for use in DL?
paladine the former god of good dragons etc in dragonlance
bahamut in the FR good of good dragons were both pictured as platnium scaled dragons.
no platnium dragon write ups.
Anyway back to the topic at hand, has anyone ever heard of a male song dragon? If not, they must reproduce by means of their female human transformation. Check out your girlfriends guys (hah, as if...) they may just be using you to create more song dragons!
The easiest way to check is to see how many hit points they have, song dragons retain their hit points when they transform, a human female with the hit points of an ancient song dragon would be quite a hint.
I am liking the "misc" dragons. Wizards set out to break the symmetry they had built up and they are doing it nicely. According to World and Monsters, dragons will no longer be lock-stepped into alignment based on their color. "Even a paladin of Bahamut might be called upon to slay a gold dragon dictator" it said.
Anyway back to the topic at hand, has anyone ever heard of a male song dragon? If not, they must reproduce by means of their female human transformation. Check out your girlfriends guys (hah, as if...) they may just be using you to create more song dragons!
The easiest way to check is to see how many hit points they have, song dragons retain their hit points when they transform, a human female with the hit points of an ancient song dragon would be quite a hint.
well yes actually, i do remember reading an article on a mercenary unit somewhere, and it listed one of its agents wa a male song dragon.
lives in neverwinter, dont remember the article's title though.
personally, they could ditch the rust dragon, the sand dragon.
kill off the brown ones, banish the fang dragons back to the elemental chaos or whatever, back to the hells with them.
the two epic dragons would be hard to find anyway since they are on top of the chain.
the clestial dragons, would stay there unless ordered to quest.
come to think of it, i didnt mention the oriental adventures dragons....
Song Dragons, as presented in Monsters of Faerun do not seem to have a male gender. Their alternate form, according to the supplement, is always a human female, never a male.
While Technically true, I was looking through the list of dragons in the appendix of Dragons of Faerun and I found a male song dragon. He's on pp. 150. His name is Ilden Garthammus and he lives in Hawkarth/Border Kingdom. He was the only male that I could find, but it is a textual proof that songs can indeed be male, though it seems highly rare.
Talk about epic level necromancy.
