The Forgotten Realms have the fey creator race. This is what confuses me: Are the fey from the FR evolved from them, or are they from the Feywild, like other Fey creatures?
I would hazard a guess and say both. Since much of that 4E (?) knowledge is yet in the works, you'd probably have to wait a little longer (Races of Faerûn 4E or something) for an answer. In 3E, they "Feywild" was no topic, though methinks it had another name anyway.
-It is my own personal belief that, unlike the other Creator Races, the leShay did not evolve on Abeir-Toril, like the Sarrukh, the Batrachi, and the other Creator Races. Unlike the other Creator Races, other Fey creatures did not 'evolve' from them. Rather, the leShay are the Fey Creator Race because, using their extensive knowledge of portals and magic related to transportation and translocation and such, they opened portals from the Plane of Faerie to Realmspace, allowing the Fey and Sylvan creatures already living there to enter into the Crystal Sphere for the first time. Thus, they are the genesis of all Fey and Sylvan creatures on Abeir-Toril, but not in the traditional sense, as with the other Creator Races.
...you'd probably have to wait a little longer (Races of Faerûn 4E or something) for an answer.
A little longer won't be enough, I suppose ;)
-It is my own personal belief that, unlike the other Creator Races, the leShay did not evolve on Abeir-Toril, like the Sarrukh, the Batrachi, and the other Creator Races. Unlike the other Creator Races, other Fey creatures did not 'evolve' from them. Rather, the leShay are the Fey Creator Race because, using their extensive knowledge of portals and magic related to transportation and translocation and such, they opened portals from the Plane of Faerie to Realmspace, allowing the Fey and Sylvan creatures already living there to enter into the Crystal Sphere for the first time. Thus, they are the genesis of all Fey and Sylvan creatures on Abeir-Toril, but not in the traditional sense, as with the other Creator Races.
Well, humans aren't one of the Creator Races in a traditional sense either. And as humans, the leShay still operate, but in a far more subtle way, apparently.
Well, humans aren't one of the Creator Races in a traditional sense either.
-They are in that they were native creatures that evolved on Abeir-Toril, and if you want to stretch it, some other creatures have evolved (or devolved!) from Humans. Neanderthals, for example. Mongrelmen, also.
-They are in that they were native creatures that evolved on Abeir-Toril, and if you want to stretch it, some other creatures have evolved (or devolved!) from Humans. Neanderthals, for example. Mongrelmen, also.
That's right, yes, though you can hardly compare neanderthals to yuan-ti, couatls, nagas, kuo-toa, and so on. They all developed some sort of society, with magic and all.
Anyway, the three traditional Creator Races all built powerful empires and created successor races. Additionally, they all had their own unique powerful type of magic (Aearee - mythals, Batrachi - summoning magic, Sarrukh - transmutation), that was later stored in the Nether Scrolls (that was one of the sources for the human predominance).
So the point is a traditional Creator Race would be a race...
...that built mighty but short-lived empires
...that created several well-established races
...whose magic was stored into the Nether Scrolls
...that evolved or were created on Toril.
So humans just qualify for one point.
Did I forget something important?
That's right, yes, though you can hardly compare neanderthals to yuan-ti, couatls, nagas, kuo-toa, and so on. They all developed some sort of society, with magic and all.
-Hey Neanderthals may be dummies, but it's not nice to insult their culture! Bonking things on the head with clubs in a pastime that goes way back. Eating raw meat is an activity that is fun for the whole family. Worshiping and fearing the most basic of phenomena, such as the sun, the moon, rain, and so on, provides hours of entertainment.
So the point is a traditional Creator Race would be a race...
...that built mighty but short-lived empires
...that created several well-established races
...whose magic was stored into the Nether Scrolls
...that evolved or were created on Toril.
-To qualify as one of the Creator Races (which includes Humans, Batrachi, Sarrukh, Aeraee and the leShay), the race simply needs to have evolved naturally on Abeir-Toril- that is, be indigenous to Abeir-Toril- and have "off-spring races" that stem from their creator (hence Creator Races).
-Hey Neanderthals may be dummies, but it's not nice to insult their culture! Bonking things on the head with clubs in a pastime that goes way back. Eating raw meat is an activity that is fun for the whole family. Worshiping and fearing the most basic of phenomena, such as the sun, the moon, rain, and so on, provides hours of entertainment.
I didn't insult their culture. Just pointed out that they are not as magically evolved and civilized as those other races.
-To qualify as one of the Creator Races (which includes Humans, Batrachi, Sarrukh, Aeraee and the leShay), the race simply needs to have evolved naturally on Abeir-Toril- that is, be indigenous to Abeir-Toril- and have "off-spring races" that stem from their creator (hence Creator Races).
Not necessarily naturally evolved, but rather existing for a long time on Toril. Then everthing would be alright, even with the leShay.
The Fey were a creator race, but that doesn't necessarily mean the LeShay... it could, sure, but we don't really know for sure. Bad LK for potentially propagating an opinion as fact. :P ;)
Actually, it just makes sense that the leShay, as such an exceptionally powerful race, are the Fey Creator Race - and it really justifies that they even exist ;)
Well, humans aren't one of the Creator Races in a traditional sense either.
I was unaware that you were around on Troil some 35,000 years ago.
Would you care to share with the rest of us what it was like?
I personally think that there was a HUMAN civilization that rose and fell on Toril VERY early on, and there is quite a bit of evidence supporting this. Mankind fell into barbarism once again after the fall of the Draconic Empires, but there was a time before the Dragons came to power when they could have come into their own - the Citadel of the Raven is testament to that. ;)
Other Things...
I think LK has the right of it, for the most part, but I have it where the Fey (Le'Sahy) Creator race came FIRST, and had pretty much left for their own demi-plane by the time the other Creator Races were coming around. Ergo, as periodic 'spottings' of them occurred down through the years, people (including the other 'Creators') assumed they came second-to-last. The Fey were given to visiting Toril often in the past, before the feywild 'drifted' further from Realmspace and many of the easy 'ways' were lost.
One of the last, canon visitations by the Le'Shay was the one allueded to in the frescos on the walls of that Imaskari ruin, in the novel Darkvision. It seemed they still 'cared enough' about Toril to get involved with the creation of the Imaskarcana (perhaps because they weren't invited to participate in the Nether Scrolls by the other 'Creators'?)
The Fey were a creator race, but that doesn't necessarily mean the LeShay... it could, sure, but we don't really know for sure. Bad LK for potentially propagating an opinion as fact. :P ;)
-I did specifically say, "...the Fey Creator Race (In all probability, the leShay)..."
I think LK has the right of it, for the most part, but I have it where the Fey (Le'Sahy) Creator race came FIRST, and had pretty much left for their own demi-plane by the time the other Creator Races were coming around. Ergo, as periodic 'spottings' of them occurred down through the years, people (including the other 'Creators') assumed they came second-to-last. The Fey were given to visiting Toril often in the past, before the feywild 'drifted' further from Realmspace and many of the easy 'ways' were lost.
-As to when the Fey Creator Race existed on the planet, AGHotR doesn't say. The latest they could have existed and/or been active would be -27,000, when portals were opened an the "Wild/Green" Elves were tricked into coming to Realmspace. This entry also gives some more connections between the leShay and the Fey Creator Race, because it simply uses the term 'Fey' when talking about what happened. The leShay were masters of portal magic and such.
One of the last, canon visitations by the Le'Shay was the one allueded to in the frescos on the walls of that Imaskari ruin, in the novel Darkvision. It seemed they still 'cared enough' about Toril to get involved with the creation of the Imaskarcana (perhaps because they weren't invited to participate in the Nether Scrolls by the other 'Creators'?)
-The very last mention dealt with the whole return of Sarifal, the leShay kingdom on the Moonshae Isles, that was mentioned in 1367 DR, Year of the Shield, when Yazilliclik the Wood Sprite told the Great Druid Robyn Kendrick, “Sarifal is awakening”.
Not how it read in post #7...
-I had already metaphorically asterisked all future statements with "...the Fey Creator Race (In all probability, the leShay)..." in my first post there. There's no need to write that over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over...
I was unaware that you were around on Troil some 35,000 years ago.
Would you care to share with the rest of us what it was like?
No.
I personally think that there was a HUMAN civilization that rose and fell on Toril VERY early on, and there is quite a bit of evidence supporting this. Mankind fell into barbarism once again after the fall of the Draconic Empires, but there was a time before the Dragons came to power when they could have come into their own - the Citadel of the Raven is testament to that. ;)
Nonetheless, alone the fact that humans are still around in significant numbers whereas neither sarrukh nor batrachi nor aearee are distinguishes humans from the other three 'traditional' Creator Races.
le shay are outsiders, from some other reality
My apologies. :embarrass
@Stig - the Le'Shay are the Fey creator race. - it's hinted at often enough (like in Stardeep), and LK reminded me of that Moonshae piece BRJ wrote, werein the Le'Shay return. Weather they actually created all the 'Fey Races' is another story.
They could have found them in an already existing plane (the Feywild), or created their own dremi-plane (Faerie) that evetually 'grew' into the Feywild. If they just found the Feywild, then LK's explanation makes sense. If they created the plane (which I think they did, using part of Toril - which is why Toril has a deep 'connection' with the Feywild), then I would imagine they created all those creatures to populate the place. Even some 35,000 years isn't enough time for all of those Fey Races to have evolved there naturally (although Fey do have natural mutanagenic abilites, and time DOES flow differently there...)
EDIT: The more I think about it, the more I think the Le'Shay were purposely created TO BE the Creator race. Think about it - calling them 'Fey' leaves us with more questions then anything else, and also creates quite a bit of inconsistencies throughout the multiverse (where Fey are from Faerie, NOT Toril). By giving us a race that isn't called 'Fey', they've come up with a work-around for all the semantic-problems that were caused by the original lore. The 'Fey Creator Race' created the Fey, but the themselves wouldn't be 'The Fey'.
In the same way that the 'Sauroid Creator Race' became the Sarrukh eventually.
imo I would like that the fey creator race(s) is native to Toril (or at least Realmspace)
le shay are outsiders, from some other reality
-They could have, in theory, been native to Realmspace. They were "born there", left at some point, and eventually became Outsiders. I don't think that necessarily works, with them being Fey, and not having connections to the Plane of Faerie, being "born naturally" in Realmspace, but...
@Stig - the Le'Shay are the Fey creator race. - it's hinted at often enough (like in Stardeep), and LK reminded me of that Moonshae piece BRJ wrote, werein the Le'Shay return. Weather they actually created all the 'Fey Races' is another story.
-Well, it is hinted plenty, yes, and I believe it to be so as well, but it isn't ever implicitly stated that the leShay are the Fey Creator Race.
EDIT: The more I think about it, the more I think the Le'Shay were purposely created TO BE the Creator race.
-I don't know of any myths, legends, fantasy, and so on that utilize the term 'leShay', so they were made up for D&D in the Epic Level Handbook, so it might just be.
-As an aside, I got a new D&D book recently: Fey Magic- Dreaming the Reverie.
Sorry Keveras - I thought you were saying they were different because they weren't around as long. What you are saying is that they are still around, making them different.
My apologies. :embarrass
No prob
And since Traitors I'm well aware that there actually were some humans with considerable magical skill even before the first human empires arose.
Scarey thing is, maybe they were Orcs...
-As an aside, I got a new D&D book recently: Fey Magic- Dreaming the Reverie.
I think thats the one I have as well - the other one (the one usually recommended at CK) I can't even access their website, for some bizarre reason.
Note that MUCH of the epic level handbook was written explicitly with FR in mind (all those NPCs!) - it's practically an FR source and not a core source. This is why I think they were introduced there, and they will slowly be slipping in lore here and there to let us know that they are indeed the creator race.
That doesn't mean they actually created the Fey, as you say - they may have just been responsible for spreading them throughout the mutiverse. Also, they may have only created a few - the first Taurics, the first 'wee folk' (the Brownie/Leprachaun pre-cursors), and the first 'diminutives' (small Fey, usually winged, never more then a foot high). Given the natural abilty for Fey to mate with just about anything, and their inborn talent of shape-changing, I would say it would only take three created by the Le'Shay to turn into all the hundreds of fey-types we have today.
I still like connecting them somehow to Toril, even if we just say "Faerie" was a realm on Toril that was moved into the feywild at some point in the distant past (and that Tintageer was the Faerie name for the Isle of the Elves, which was merged back into Realmspace accidently with the Sundering ritual).
That doesn't mean they actually created the Fey, as you say - they may have just been responsible for spreading them throughout the mutiverse.
-Or just in/around Realmspace, anyway. Other settings, I don't know how they explain things.
In almost all settings, 'Faerie' is 'elsewhere' (another plane, dimension, quantum universe, Corellon's backpocket, whatever...)
...Except on Mystara. There, Faerie is a place in the forest that anyone can get to... accidentaly, of course (for mortals). It exists on Mystara, and not 'elsewhere', although it does have some lore about it being 'hidden' as well.
Thats from Tall Tales of the wee Folk - one of my favorite old-school D&D products, and the only official D&D product to ever cover just the Fey.
In ALL settings that I know of, Fey come from Faerie.
-I wasn't entirely sure about that, but that wasn't what I meant. I meant that, in other settings, there might be explanations as to the hows/whys of Fey/Sylvan creatures existing, that do not involve the leShay. Say, for example, if the 'Acme' Campaign Setting already had in it that, "Pinky and the Brain accidentally opened a portal to a world in which Fey and Sylvan creatures arrived from".
Thats from Tall Tales of the wee Folk - one of my favorite old-school D&D products, and the only official product to ever cover just the Fey put out for D&D.
-Oh...G-d...
Well... except for maybe the giant rabbit with the pocket watch...
-For whatever reason, whenever I thought of the "Fey Creator Race", I always thought of Kushiban.
I was unaware that you were around on Troil some 35,000 years ago.
Would you care to share with the rest of us what it was like?
I personally think that there was a HUMAN civilization that rose and fell on Toril VERY early on, and there is quite a bit of evidence supporting this. Mankind fell into barbarism once again after the fall of the Draconic Empires, but there was a time before the Dragons came to power when they could have come into their own - the Citadel of the Raven is testament to that. ;)
Elven High Magi tampering with creation (the Sundering) didn't particularly help us out. No one at the time had the ability to block something like that idiocy without causing far greater trouble. A city was shifted out of the way and time was twisted, the rest didn't do well. The damage inflicted by Karsus and later the Time of Troubles destroyed most of what survived.
We are now back to my favorite subject - the quite obvious split timeline of FR. :D
The humans rose early and started their own, great 'Creator Race' Civilization, only to be nuked back into the Stoneage by the Sundering.
That makes loads of sense - the most likely location for such an early empire would have been in the northeast - the very area that was dropped into the Sea when the sundering occurred - which works with Brian James' original version of the GhotR, wherein he postulates the Illuskans/Northmen and the Azu-Pozi splitting off of a common, pre-Sundering group (my theoretical 'Pozi' - who split into the Azu-Pozi, and the Illu-Pozi).
Ergo the modern 'barbarians' are sadly the remnants of the very first human civilization... but such is life, in the Realms.
Very little evidence remains of this group, simply because they were 'erased from time'.
The reason why I really like this theory (aside from the fact that it is mostly mine :P ), is that I've always had trouble with certain aspects of the Nether scrolls.
Just who were those 'others' that the Sarrukh, Batrachi, and Aeriee needed to study, who's "magical traditions" awed them to the point they felt the need to record it all on the Skins of the World Serpent?
Certainly not the Fey....
To be more ooc though, if the entire civilization was erased from the timeline, then what little evidence remains would actually belong to refugees from a previous timeline/reality that manages to jump into our time or somehow block the effects of the temporal mod and while I play with that concept for amusement because I use organizations that exist out of sync with local time and basically consider the date to be part of the address, I doubt WotC will try it. Simpler explanation is that the Sundering prevented them from getting to their height and what evidence remains actually belongs to their predecessors who in the current timeline never got as far.
Much simpler explanation is that the Sundering's influence on time was very finite and we don't have much physical evidence because it was either utterly destroyed or is now very deep under water and hasn't been found yet.
Which would NOT have co-existed. You are imagining, LK, that I am talking about some alternate Toril where things are still "chuggin' along as planned" (which is kinda cool), when all I am saying is that the world was going a certain way for awhile, and then the clock was 'reset', and then about 30'000 of history was changed.
That lost civilization of humans? It NEVER happened, because time changed. Some anomalies may have occurred, like fortresses that can be attributed to no known human group, or Elven records of civilized humans appearing long before they should have, or even other oddities, like the Black Archer appearing in early Elven Lore... long before he should have.
I am assuming here that Elven Mythals/High Magic somehow partially block temporal effects from making changes - which is why Elves occassionally come-across things in their own histories which even they can't explain. While most of their lore gets 're-written' by the changes to the Timestream, some things manage to slip through the cracks, as it were (which is a great way to explain-away just about any consistency errors we come across).
All I am saying is that there are in fact TWO canon histories, but they never existed simultaneously. One simply over-wrote the other. That means that technically the first one 'never happened' as far as anyone on Toril is concerned.
I think the Sojourner might have been from that original timeline...
Though I tend to agree that the idea does make things a bit overly complicated for my liking MT, even though I like the basic premise in theory.
"are the mere remnant of a once-great race whose origins are lost to history. They claim to predate the current multiverse and refer darkly to some catastrophe that not only wiped out most of their people but changed time so that their era never existed, even in the remotest past."
Eric Boyd has established firmly in lore that the Sundering had reverberations backwards and forwards through time.
The High Magic spell that effected the Sundering couldn't just push continents around in an instant without wreaking horrible destruction upon Toril, so the spell actually made smaller changes through time that pushed the tectonic plates apart so as to mitigate the more destructive forces, thereby amortizing the damage over a number of millennia, paring the destruction back to acceptable levels.
My understanding is that as a direct (though inadvertent) result of the Sundering, the LeShay homeland in Toril was wiped out, erased/overwritten from time. Never existed.
I take it that the LeShay were originally native to Toril, and colonized Faerie/the Feywild from Toril. I take it also that the LeShay who survived the Sundering were the ones living in the Feywild (or other planes) at the time that the Sundering was cast.
Perhaps Iakhovas can chime in with some lore for us on the subject, but the above is what I gather from both official sources and what Eric Boyd and Iakhovas (Brian James) have mentioned on-line.
P.S. the LeShay alway reminded me of Elric of Melniboné, and his extinct magical empire of pseudo-elves, though of the bunch, I think Elric was the only actual albino.
Melnibonians where described as catlike. Look at the Leshay...
Although merely entitled "The Elf Guy", its very obvious who it is supposed to be.
Definately like to see Elric as a LeShay. Make's them less uniformly epic good elves and more like a dramaticly haughty and decadent race of pleasure seekers.
Wouldn't that be what drow are, short of their disposition toward sadistic pursuits?
Though, on a more serious note, I have heard of some groups of people seeking to make elves more under that kind of trend without trying to go overboard on the carnal aspect of pleasure seeking.
Best regards,
AryaNightingale
Aye Arya. I like my LeShay and ancient elves as more alien and awe inspiring.
Making LeShay remeniscant of Melnibonians gives me the opportunity to a decent backstory for them. Their culture was largely defined by being longlived forces of Chaos blessed by a chaotic fey diety of Death with Incarnum based powers to endulge their every whim. Their culture was molded into their decadent form by countless generations of static rulers appointed by their god who believed they should rule creation.
The sundering of Tintageer (i.e. Elrics sacrifice) largely removed their footprint on the surface of Fearie and sent their works scattered across the multiverse and its timeline. Some scattered remains of their temples or shrines to nature are still present on Fearun near Feywild crossroads in the Moonshaea's.
Edit: After a wee-bit of searching, I found I was definately right.
Wouldn't that be what drow are, short of their disposition toward sadistic pursuits?
Which is exactly what the Melniboneans are in the Elric novels - a type of pale surface Drow... who like to watch a good torture while eating dinner.
I believe that photo was from the Hellboy II movie (I' didn't see it, but I've heard good things). If I'm correct, that's probably the Elf King
yes, tough the king looks different
princess Nuala
what I liked most is the market, it looked Planescapey
I do not think they were strict on going off already established lore, but I was not looking for that when I watched the movie. I would recommend at least renting the movie.[/off topic]
Best regards,
AryaNightingale
__
Linking LeShay to early Incarnum use feels like it fits (considering all can shape bastard swords from their own soulstuff as free actions), as at the time of their height I can imagine primal forces were more prominent. What are the Melnibonian dieties that existed in Ed's early Realms work? They are all very interested in the soul trade and fit into philosophies about Incarnum. The Yuir Dieties have a totem feel to them, which fits Incarnum totemist philosophies aswell.
The same would go for violence, torture, and so forth. It has been a trend lately to have content define the plot, and not have the plot define content.
On another note, Hellboy did not go excessive on anything. I liked the series for that. They included a fiend-blooded protagonist without having to overdo the gore commonly seen in modern-day horror movies.
I almost want to say I want them to make a Forgotten Realms based movie involving elves or drow, or both, but I am worried that the people making the movie might compromise the lore for the big bucks. It happened in a several movies based on novels.
Best Regards,
AryaNightingale
That would work - you only need establish the background at the very beginning... so you do not pity them their fate later on.
And Elric would make short work out of Drizzt (who's really just an Elric wanna-be). I'd much rather see a movie based on him then our emo Drow any day.
In fact, at his most maudlin, Elric can even out-emo Drizzt. :D
Then about a week ago, desperate for something - anything - to read, I took a bunch of books out of the attic, and wound-up re-reading an Elric one.
The stories certainly don't stand-up to the test of time - It was as bad as a lot of FR novels
I guess as I aged, my tastes became more refined. Once you start reading good Sci-Fi and Fantasy, you realize what utter garbage all that pulp crap is. Still, I have my memories... I just have to avoid re-reading anymore.
On another note, about 2½ year ago, I read The Dream Thief's Daughter, which wasn't bad (Elric and Nazis, if you can believe it). His writing has definately improved quite a bit from those early days of magazine short-story writing.
I was thinking of re-visiting the Conan stories as well, but now I think I'm better off just letting them rest fondly in the past. Time has a strange way of making things seem so much better.
I liked the idea that they were trying to give us an actual race for 'the Fey', instead 'all fey' being part of the Creator Race, which was a little hokey.
Now at least we have a name to hang all those created-fey on. I think it has a lot of potential, but would agree that making them epic just for the sake of being epic may not have been the best way to go.
I don't mind it though - I look at this way - they are like the 'Q' in Star Trek - incredibly powerful beings, who are so because they've been around so long. Now, that doesn't mean they were born that powerful - its far more likely that no 'new' Le'Shay has been born in thousands of years (which is the case with the 'Q' Continuum).
Or they may be like the Pak of the Niven universe - they are the ultimate 'stage' of some other lifeform - perhaps all those diminutive Fey - so that we never see any 'immature' Le'Shay. They themselves could be a final evolutionary stage of something much greater. Thats why they are all epic - they are the final stage... that we know of.
Just some random thoughts...
btw there are fey creatures called leshi (or something like that) in Dragon
http://www.aeolia.net/dragondex/monsters.html
There's quite a few, going through every source, from every edition, for every setting (all of whom should be available in the Feywild).
I break them into Sprites (there's a great list in the 2e Monstrous Compendium), Urchins (the Brownie-sized ones), and Nobles.
There's also a GREAT breakdown of them in the 3e Ravenloft supplement The Great Rift, including a group known as Sith Lords... long before SW used that term (its a Celtic name for Fey).
If you take the three main racial groupings, and then add in the 'courts' (Seelie, Unseelie, and Twilight), you get Nine different major groupings you can pretty-much fit all of them into.
Somewhere in my attic I have all my notes from a Faerie Sourcebook I was writing for the Chivalry & Sorcery game system. I had dreams once of being a game designer, and even worked for the company back then (FGU).
I guess thats why Boulevard of Broken Dreams is my favorite Painting.
Anyhow, I'd have to start all from scratch now anyway, with 30 years having gone by and all....
Any new insights in the Practical Guide to Fearies?
Might not have all resources to scour... Anyone know anymore novels with Fey?
-Plague of Spells introduces a new Fey entity that I think was somewhat interesting: The Lord of Bats.
that's like the Batlord from Beastlands, seems redundant
There's also a GREAT breakdown of them in the 3e Ravenloft supplement The Great Rift, including a group known as Sith Lords... long before SW used that term (its a Celtic name for Fey).
I have Van Richten's Guide to Shadow Fey, it mentions Sithe, will have to check that
also Faeries of Bastion Press, and Tall Tales of the Wee Folk mention them
why do you want to categorize fey?
anyway I checked for Le Shay, those in Dragon 290 are part of the Eastern European/Slavic campaign, they look like satyrs, too bestial
in Dragon 119
Leshies are mischievous inhabitants of forests and wooded hills, delighting in bothering and misleading unwary travelers. They have their own sense of “fair play,” however, and usually let up on their victims if the unfortunate souls either retain their sense of humor throughout the ordeal or somehow manage to evade the tricks. Leshies are nomadic creatures, having no fixed lairs and acquiring only those items they can carry upon their persons.
Leshies appear as wizened humanoids with long noses and matted, dirty brown hair and beards. Their bodies are covered with hair of a similar color and consistency, and their skin is light blue in complexion where it shows through. While they can be more than a little irritating, leshies are on good terms with most nonevil, nonlawful forest creatures, including most elves (particularly grugach and wood elves), faerie dragons, grigs, buckawn, and centaurs. There is a longstanding enmity between the leshies and kech.
they are also in one Faerie third-party monster book done by Keith Baker
in Dragon 119
Leshies are mischievous inhabitants of forests and wooded hills, delighting in bothering and misleading unwary travelers. They have their own sense of “fair play,” however, and usually let up on their victims if the unfortunate souls either retain their sense of humor throughout the ordeal or somehow manage to evade the tricks. Leshies are nomadic creatures, having no fixed lairs and acquiring only those items they can carry upon their persons.
Leshies appear as wizened humanoids with long noses and matted, dirty brown hair and beards. Their bodies are covered with hair of a similar color and consistency, and their skin is light blue in complexion where it shows through. While they can be more than a little irritating, leshies are on good terms with most nonevil, nonlawful forest creatures, including most elves (particularly grugach and wood elves), faerie dragons, grigs, buckawn, and centaurs. There is a longstanding enmity between the leshies and kech.
-With the exception of their appearance, this is how I've always envisioned the Fey Creator Race.
Maybe it's the name....
I like the this description
A leszy usually appears as a tall man, but he is able to change his size from that of a blade of grass to a very tall tree. He has hair and a beard made from living grass and vines, and is sometimes depicted with a tail, hooves and horns. He has pale white skin that contrasts with his bright green eyes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leshi
And yes, Frogs, with pasty faces bumming cigarettes... the whole streotypical enchilada. :D
heh... anyone who can enjoy snails, raw chopmeat, and cow brains has to be some form of primitive spirit. :P
One of the more higher end fey opponents, but I cant recall what the FR sidebar said about his origin in the realms. He was a pretty localised threat as far as I recall, but he looks alot like a less hairy leshi...
MM4 sidebar mentions king Witchthorn of Kryptgarden Forest that has a pact with a noble family of Waterdeep
It appears to be some sort of 'Nature Elemental', which is how I always pictured Fey anyway
yea, me too, in my cosmology the Plane of Wood is incorporated into Faerie
The reason why he looks so much like a devil is because the church wanted you to think that... and they were obviously successful. ;)
They did the same thing to the Satyrs of Greek Legend.
yea, me too, in my cosmology the Plane of Wood is incorporated into Faerie
On this we can agree. :D
'Wood', 'Life', and 'Metal' (a bastardized version of an Alchemist's concept of 'Alloys') are all part and parcel with the Realm of Faerie - they are just different names for the same thing (depending on the culture involved).
Since I consider 'Life' to be an amalgam of the other four elements (mixed in equal parts - which fits in with Medieval notions about such things), thats how I rationalize 'Metal' (used by some Oriental cultures). In the Kara-Tur material I'm developing, the words 'Metal' and 'Alloy' are interchangable (thus fixing the obvious problems making everything seemless).
To Europeans (and western Faerûn), Druidism would be the form of Elementalism based on the elusive 'Fifth Element', which is why 'Life' (or wood, or Metal, etc...) isn't included in their list of Magical Specialists - they mistakenly consider it a seperate thing.
Also, there is a sixth 'non-element' - that of Void, or rather, the absence of ALL elements. It would be the polar opposite of 'Wood' (all elements need opposing forces), and would help wrap the old Positive and negative Palnes into the Elemental Ones (which helps a great deal with 4e lore conundrums).
Ergo, the Negative Plane was really the Shadowfel, and the Positive Plane was really Faerie (the Feywild), both of which subsumed the Planes they were once part of (as of the Spellplague, which also managed to 'flush' all the Elemental plains down the same cosmic whirlpool).
In that way, I get to keep the planes we lost, hidden DEEP within the planes that were once just small parts of them.
In the deep shadow, one finds the 'Places of Death' (like the Fugue), and in the heart of the Feywild, one finds the Well of Souls, which acts almost like a spiritual 'White Hole'.
After all, Fey are nothing more then spirits that were never born. ;)
Perhaps the Faerie beings are just an unformed 'Pupa stage' of material world souls? They would look like simple motes of light (Will-O-Wisps), but as time went on and they weren't born (for whatever reason) into the 'real world' (becoming souls), they would evolve into other things (Pixies, then Urchins, and eventual into Noble Fey - Le'Shay).
Could be a good way to explain changelings as well - say that they were exchanged because the Faerie-creature felt it was 'robbed' of its chance to be born.
Puts a bit of a nasty light on the Fey, but I like it that way.
-Oh, and on a list of Forgotten Realms Fey entities, we could also put Corellon Larethian's two servitors on there.
-I've always envisioned the "Fey Creator Race" as a very Kushiban-like, only with more foresty colors and such.
I love that idea--it's cute.;)
I always pictured fey creator race to be anthropomorphic, or alternatively as some kind of pixie-swarm-collective.
'Wood', 'Life', and 'Metal' (a bastardized version of an Alchemist's concept of 'Alloys') are all part and parcel with the Realm of Faerie - they are just different names for the same thing (depending on the culture involved).
Since I consider 'Life' to be an amalgam of the other four elements (mixed in equal parts - which fits in with Medieval notions about such things), thats how I rationalize 'Metal' (used by some Oriental cultures). In the Kara-Tur material I'm developing, the words 'Metal' and 'Alloy' are interchangable (thus fixing the obvious problems making everything seemless).
what do you mean by ''Life''? interesting there is a myth from Tall Tales of the Wee Folk, where Life arose from the four chaotic elements (Matter, Energy, Time, Thought)
I use some parts from it for the cosmology, tough I don't like the entropy/intergration cycles of the multiverse, instead, these processes happen simultaneusly, at any point in time, one of them is better concealed. Also I don't like that fey were uninvolved, it kinda contradicts with the leshay myth about the end of the last multiverse, and the Black Diamond disaster.
imo Metal isn't a part of Faerie, metals, especially iron are inimical to fey, so Metal is in concordant opposition to Wood (Spiritworld/Faerie, World Tree). Spiritworld is a transitive plane, and so is the base plane of Metal, Blood Rift (partially similar to Acheron of the Great Wheel). Blood Rift brutally invades all other planes.
According to Rule of Three there are three ways the four elements come into being, and multiverse is an amalgam of three basic elemental planes, Spiritworld (Cosmic Tree), Dragon Eyrie (Cosmic Serpent) and Jotunheim (Cosmic Egg).
Negative Plane was really the Shadowfel, and the Positive Plane was really Faerie (the Feywild), both of which subsumed the Planes they were once part of (as of the Spellplague, which also managed to 'flush' all the Elemental plains down the same cosmic whirlpool).
In the deep shadow, one finds the 'Places of Death' (like the Fugue), and in the heart of the Feywild, one finds the Well of Souls, which acts almost like a spiritual 'White Hole'.
here's what I have
Spiritworld is the oldest plane, initially there was only the Ethereal Tree, skeleton of the previous multiverse, realm of possibility, inhabited by the Firstborn (spirits/fey/genies), everything is backwards for fey, they were at the peak of power (evolution) in the beginning. Today, the Tree's ''bark'' is Faerie, where the elements manifest in a balance of seasons. Below the bark are the raw elements, composing the Elemental Core, Earth is pith, Water is xylem, Fire is phloem and Air is cambium. The Tree is enrooted in the Ethereal (includes Dream, fey tool of creation), outside of the bark is Shadowfel, first the Border Shadow (some substance), pass that it's Vacuum, and in the end, the Void, which can be silvery (Astral) or dark (Deep Shadow, source of the Negative).
Jotunheim is the plane of the Secondborn (titans/later gods). The Egg is diametrically opposite to the Tree, Ether gives birth to Air, then to Fire (Magma), Water (Ice) and Earth. The appearance of the Seconborn introduces time as we know it, and mortality (the Fugue demiplane). Today, Jotunheim is shaped like a hemisphere and not considered a complete plane cause a half of it was used in creation of other planes, mostly the Prime.
In balance to these two worlds, coiled around, is Dragon Eyrie. Wood births Fire, Fire creates Earth (Ash, Mineral), Earth bears Metal, Metal collects Water, Water nourishes Wood.
Conceptually the Rule of Three is about the mind, body and soul, where spirits (fey) mostly represent ''soul'', serpents (dragons and others) ''mind'' (balance, reason, logos) and mortals (humans/giants) ''body''. Spiritually fey represent eros (appetitive, desire, feminine) and humans thymos (emotion, spiritedness, masculine) while serpents manipulate in between. But it's not all black and white, and exclusive.
After all, Fey are nothing more then spirits that were never born.
Perhaps the Faerie beings are just an unformed 'Pupa stage' of material world souls? They would look like simple motes of light (Will-O-Wisps), but as time went on and they weren't born (for whatever reason) into the 'real world (becoming souls), they would evolve into other things (Pixies, then Urchins, and eventual into Noble Fey - Le'Shay).
Agreed about the never born part, but not about evolving. Evolution of souls is a mortal thing, after the appearance of mortals, the First World is in decline, no new noble fey or leshay did incarnate. Fey reincarnation is random, evolutionary it goes backwards. Eventually fey become spirit animals, animals, beastlords (nobles), plants (treants, dryads ...), rivers, mountains etc.
Faerie isn't the source of positive energy and Radiance, these places are too extreme for the balanced Faerie. Amalgam of the first three planes created all others, the World Tree was mostly involved in the creation of chaotic planes, tough even Mechanus has spirits of the gears. When Wood gave birth to Fire, it was in the form of Phoenix, who like in mayan myths ''vomitted fiery blood'', the spark of life. This is where is the Life Well and the Bastion of Unborn Souls, around it formed the CG plane. Cause of fey origin, Phoenix de-evolved into the CG part of the World Serpent.
Stars are ''White Holes'', Astral gates of Selune that reflect the Phoenix energy to the other planes.
Abyssal parts of the plane of xaOs (that's Limbo, Abyss and Pandemonium combined) are places of fear and evil, this is where reality dissipates in contact with the Deep Shadow. Annwn, realm of the Unseelie Court, once a part of Faerie's Twilight Lands, is now a part of xaOs.
http://www.forgottenrealmsvault.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=102&p=1498#p1498
Also, there is a sixth 'non-element' - that of Void, or rather, the absence of ALL elements. It would be the polar opposite of 'Wood' (all elements need opposing forces), and would help wrap the old Positive and negative Palnes into the Elemental Ones (which helps a great deal with 4e lore conundrums).
I don't consider wood and metal to be elements on their own, but a derivation of the basic ones, they're the result of constant flux and interaction between elements. The fifth element is ether (sound, Word). The sixth element is dualistic in nature, light and dark, it represents the Illusion (Maya). It's equivalent to the sixth chakra. Masters of the sixth element are rakshasas. The seventh element is a mystery, and it's connected to the Race of Destiny.
I always pictured fey creator race to be anthropomorphic, or alternatively as some kind of pixie-swarm-collective.
-That's an interesting idea, some kind of sentient swarm type thing.
-With Sylvan and Fey creatures though, I'll have to agree: I personally think that smaller = better.
-That's an interesting idea, some kind of sentient swarm type thing.
tough I imagined it as a Faerie Court, it's dispersed most of the time, except when they do important stuff, like facing great danger or ''race creation'' thing
Another take I used for awhile but recently discarded involved the Illithids, of all things. They did something disasterous at the end of time (causing it?), and have returned from the future to stop it (thats canon).
I had it where the gods, at the end of time, created the Fey, but unlike any other race, they 'age' in reverse! What that means is that to our perception, it appears the Fey become smaller and weaker as time goes on (I'm talking millenia here), when the reality is is that they are just 'moving the other way' in the timestream, reaching "full maturity" (the Le'Shay stage?) at the beginning of time.
A little weird, but I used to have a need to account for the 'Diminishing Effect' Fey seem to undergo in all folklore - they tend to be extremely powerful beings early on, who get smaller and weaker as the centuries pass. In reality, this was just because of the spread on Christianity and the desire of the church to paint these once-powerful elemental spirits as mere creatures of fancy, but I felt a more in-game explanation was needed.
Since then, I realized that its pretty hard to write any rules for creatures that 'live in reverse' to the rest of us (like, would they even remember meeting you before, since to them it is an earlier point in time?) - let alone try to run encounters with them - so I ignore that part and just create different stages of 'evolution'. Basically, if a spirit isn't born, it continues to 'grow' spiritually, but lacks the conection to the prime that tends to "anchor it", so that there various stages are more random and chaotic in nature.
Heavy Metal...
Also, just to clarify - my use of the term 'metal' was just to sync-up the eastern elements with the western. 'Metal' is used in the OA rules, and yet in the Kara-Tur material Wood is mentioned... along with metal! Ergo, I say that it is a simple grammatical error - the original theories of Alchemy came over with the Shou interlopers from their world, and the word for 'Alloy' was mistakenly translated to mean 'metal' in Roushoum (Imaskari). The same word is now in use mean both 'metal' and "alloy' in Kara-Tur, although originally the word was used to describe 'something composed of various elements'. 'Pure metals', like Iron, would have had a completely different word in the Shou tongue - now lost to time since the merger with the Lung people and language.
Ergo, 'Metal' to an oriental (Kara-Turran) wouldn't mean exactly the same thing to a westerner - it is simply a term for a thing composed of several things to creating a whole that is greater then the sum of it's parts. Pure metals, like Iron, would be anethema to Faerie, since Fey exist as a form of primal chaos - a mixture of various elements - and any pure one would cause pain, and some, like Iron, even death.
Convoluted? Yes... definately... but it covers the weirdness when trying to have two completely different systems of Elelements on one campaign world. Now the four basic = the same four in the east, and the myesterious '5th Element' is called by different names in different parts of the world - but all mean the same thing - a type of 'spirit energy' that is combination of the other four elements.
Edit: And once again my mind is being drawn to the Incarnum rules... perhaps 'Incarnum' is yet another name for this mysterious 5th Element?
Emanual of the Planes...
Lumping the positive plane into Faerie isn't a perfect fit - I pefer that Faerie was a 'growth' out of the positive (life evolving in a chaotic fashion). In fact, I used to say that Faerie was sort-of like Ravenloft's Planer opposite, because that was a 'growth' out of the plane of Shadows (both being sentient pieces that 'broke away' from the main plane). However, 4e's Feywild helps fix that - I just say that Faerie was a border-realm between the positive and the Prime, just as Shadow would have been a border-Realm between the Prime Material and the negative (which represents absolute darkeness). Because of the Spellplague and all the cosmic chaos cause by Mystra's death (or whatever), the planes that used to be 'just borders' (a'la the Border Ethereal) - Faerie and the Plane of Shadows - became full-blown planes of their own (now named the Feywild and Shadowfel), and both absorbed the energy planes that they once merely bordered.
Like I said, the Shadow/Negativbe works out much 'cleaner' then the Positive/Faeire thing, but I need some sort of juxtaposition - I'm all about cosmic symetry.
Certain Caveats...
Now Void being the sixth element - and the number '6' has all sorts of evil connotations - is just icing on the cake at this point. One of Shar's aliases is Entropy - and what better to represent THAT then Void. which fits neatly into this package as the old 'Negative Energy' and the infamous sixth element.
At least thats my take - adding another 7th element is a bit much, for me.
However, you have given me an idea - I too am a fan of the old Mystara material, and perhaps there was an older grouping of Elements that existed in the cosmic scheme of things before the prime material was created form the existing set.
That would be a perfect thing to give to my conceptuals - a group of 'Elder Gods' that existed at the beginning of time, each responsible for one of the basic concepts the universe is built upon (for instance - Chronepsis represents time - and that happens to be one of Mystara's Chaotic Elements - I may build upon that!)
I also use the rule of three (Authentic Thaumaturgy) for much of my lore - so I will take-apart what you have done and see if I can fit it into my own stuff. The egg-tree thing sounds a little too Norse for my taste, but I will see (I have several differnt trees worked in, as well as the entire affair of the Black Diamond... which quite obviously took place on Toril).
Mystara was off the Sheazy - and they had Fey bunnies - remember the Phooka? - way before Star Wars had Bunny Jedi.
Too bad they gave him that pocket-watch - it added a level of 'corny' I could have lived without.
And aren't Jedi Bunnies called Pikachu's, anyway? :P
Edit: And once again my mind is being drawn to the IIncarnum rules... perjaps 'Incarnum' is yet another name for this mysterious 5th Element?
-It's versatile enough.
Another take I used for awhile but recently discarded involved the Illithids, of all things. They did something disasterous at the end of time (causing it?), and have returned from the future to stop it (thats canon).
I ran one such futuristic campaign, tough I don't like that the illithids have such importance in the multiverse, they should be just meddlers, outsiders. Now that again happened with Abeir-aberrations thing, they're the oldest ...
imo The purpose of the Illithid time travel was genetic manipulation of humans, who will become important in the far future.
A little weird, but I used to have a need to account for the 'Diminishing Effect' Fey seem to undergo in all folklore - they tend to be extremely powerful being early on, who get smaller and weaker as the centuries pass. In reality, this was just because of the spread on Christianity and the desire of the church to paint these once-powerful elemental spirits as mere creatures of fancy, but I felt a more in-game explanation was needed.
yea, I remember you mentioned the reversed aging before. It's unique, I wanted a more Tolkienesque approach with the Firstborn.
Basically, if a spirit isn't born, it continues to 'grow' spiritually, but lacks the conection to the prime that tends to "anchor it", so that there various stages are more random and chaotic in nature.
yea, tough doesn't that happen with outsiders (e.g. the tanar'ri that spawn directly from Abyss), I imagine fey as something between immortal creatures composed just of spirit such as eladrins and mortals of the Prime, ''anchoring'' is a good term, so those fey connected with the outer planar environment would eventually lose substance and become pure spirits like eladrins (not 4e) while those more involved with the Prime would become lakes, elves, planets ...
Heavy Metal...
Also, just to clarify - my use of the term 'metal' was just to sync-up the eastern elements with the western. 'Metal' is used in the OA rules, and yet in the Kara-Tur material Wood is mentioned... along with metal! Ergo, I say that it is a simple grammatical error - the original theories of Alchemy came over with the Shou interlopers from their world, and the word for 'Alloy' was mistakenly translated to mean 'metal' in Roushoum (Imaskari). The same word is now in use mean both 'metal' and "alloy' in Kara-Tur, although originally the word was used to describe 'something composed of various elements'. 'Pure metals', like Iron, would have had a completely different word in the Shou tongue - now lost to time since the merger with the Lung people and language.
Alchemy originating on Earth, hmm
, personally I prefer the Inner Planes alternatively, maybe Shou learned alchemy from Imaskar or their slaves, alchemy, it's most likely, originated in Egypt (Khemet, alchemy)
Ergo, 'Metal' to an oriental (Kara-Turran) wouldn't mean exactly the same thing to a westerner - it is simply a term for a thing composed of several things to creating a whole that is greater then the sum of it's parts. Pure metals, like Iron, would be anethema to Faerie, since Fey exist as a form of primal chaos - a mixture of various elements - and any pure one would cause pain, and some, like Iron, even death.
I see, that's an interesting take
still I'm staying with Wood vs. Metal concept
Edit: And once again my mind is being drawn to the IIncarnum rules... perjaps 'Incarnum' is yet another name for this mysterious 5th Element?
I liked the basic concept of the, but chakras were in the wrong places
Because of the Spellplague and all the cosmic chaos cause by Mystra's death (or whatever), the planes that used to be 'just borders' (a'la the Border Ethereal) - Faerie and the Plane of Shadows - became full-blown planes of their own (now named the Feywild and Shadowfel), and both absorbed the energy planes that they once merely bordered.
so you're accepting Spellplague
Like I said, the Shadow/Negativbe works out much 'cleaner' then the Positive/Faeire thing, but I need some sort of juxtaposition - I'm all about cosmic symetry.
I like symmetry, but only with lawful planes, and some neutral
That would be a perfect thing to give to my conceptuals - a group of 'Elder Gods' that existed at the beginning of time, each responsible for one of the basic concepts the universe is built upon (for instance - Chronepsis represents time - and that happens to be one of Mystara's Chaotic Elements - I may build upon that!)
I also use the rule of three
I have several ancients for Time, Chronus, elder titans, Chronepis, serpents, and the Sand Man, fey
The egg-tree thing sounds a little too Norse for my taste, but I will see (I have several differnt trees worked in, as well as the entire affair of the Black Diamond... which quite obviously took place on Toril).
well, I just chose three most often concepts of the world creation myths, egg is also present in Finnish, Egyptian, Chinese, Indian, African etc. mythologies. The World Tree and Serpent similarly, and they were already in many mythologies of d&d races, tough there were imo too detached, and often contradictory.
Mystara was off the Sheazy - and they had Fey bunnies - remember the Phooka? - way before Star Wars had Bunny Jedi.
vaguely, I have some books that we got cheap from a group of old players, I like the rakasta and many other monsters unique to it though
the world seems very similar to FR when it comes to real world analogies, and cause it's older some cool aspects of its mythology aren't in FR, that's pretty much why I use it
imo The purpose of the Illithid time travel was genetic manipulation of humans, who will become important in the far future.
Interesting... and it makes a lot of sense.
yea, I remember you mentioned the reversed aging before. It's unique, I wanted a more Tolkienesque approach with the Firstborn.
I borrow from Tolkien as well (who deosn't?), and as I said, I've been moving away from that one for some time - it's a bit too 'Doctor WHOish'.
yea, tough doesn't that happen with outsiders (e.g. the tanar'ri that spawn directly from Abyss), I imagine fey as something between immortal creatures composed just of spirit such as eladrins and mortals of the Prime, ''anchoring'' is a good term, so those fey connected with the outer planar environment would eventually lose substance and become pure spirits like eladrins (not 4e) while those more involved with the Prime would become lakes, elves, planets ...
Fiends do evolve - at least they used to. Originally, they all started out as level 1's (manes and Lemure) and 'moved up the ladder'. I was unaware that that had changed.
Alchemy originating on Earth, hmm
alternatively, maybe Shou learned alchemy from Imaskar or their slaves, alchemy, it's most likely, originated in Egypt (Khemet, alchemy)
Ahhhhh... you haven't been following the Kara-Tur thread, have you? We've even been fortunate enough to have Brian James' help on certain points (he seems to be the only designer that still has an interest in the East).
The Lung were indigenous peoples of Kara-Tur, looking very much like our RW Chinese - small, light of frame mostly, and with the epicanthic fold in heir eyes.
Shou, on the other hand, came from another world entirely - the 'Oriental Homeworld' for all such races (there is a world called "Jadespace" in the Spelljammer material, and I alude that this may be the one the Shou came from, or just one more they settled). Tall and majestic, with firey red Hair and eyes much more like an Elfs (large, and actually slanted, unlike the epicanthic folds found amongst real peoples).
When a disaster struck their home sphere, the High God - the Celestial Emperor - chose to divide the people of his world into twelve groups and send them forth to colonize other worlds, with the hopes that at least some would survive (and all did, amazingly enough).
Toril was just one world the Shou came too... Earth was another.
The Easterners didn't come from our Earth - both groups had a common ancestry from yet another world.
And the Art of Alchemy was brought with them - the were 'masters of the material', and could create anything using elemental magic and precise alchemical formulas. In fact, it works very well to say that all of the Imaskari Golemic knowledge (along with the later Raumathar Construct-tech) stems from a sudden influx of Shou sciences, including Alchemical Humonculi - a spirit summoned from beyond to inhabit a material creation. :D
I see, that's an interesting take
still I'm staying with Wood vs. Metal concept
My problem is that I'm constantly revising my take on things, so that EVERYTHING works within my cosmic model. It's my own magical version of the theory of Relativity (which also needs to be incorporated). Ergo, EVERY book, comic, and game setting I have ever read (including SciFi), and every TV program and Movie I have ever seen, must all work within this model... which isn't easy.
On a much smaller scale, that means I have to rectify the differences between 'Eastern Elementalism', and 'Western Elementalism' - it doesn't suit to have two seperate sets of game rules - that just bogs things down - one of 3e's downfalls. It is so much easier to say they are the same (and cover the 'Metal' problem with a grammatical error), and simply say that the 5th element - Life - became the Druidic traditions found in the west.
I also have the Creator races each associated with a different Element, just to keep the theme of 'Five' going in the Utter East material.
Aeriee = Air (no-brainer there)
Batrachi = Water (fairly simple, considering their 'decendents')
Fey = Earth (another easy one - Fey are spirits of the earth given flesh)
Sarrukh = Fire (think Dinos & volcanos here - this one's the only stretch)
Humans = 'Life', the mysterious '5th Element', and is why they are a The Race of Destinty. They embrace a balance of all the other elements.
I liked the basic concept of the, but chakras were in the wrong places
Haven't looked into Incarnum yet... that would bother me as well... I was planning on touching on the Chakras in the Kara-Tur project.
so you're accepting Spellplague
In-as-much as that it IS canon, and therefore I must make sure all of my current (pre-Spellplague) homebrew lore does't contradict any changes the designers made, but rather helps to '"explain away" some of the anomalies. I don't plan on using it, but I hope that anything I create can be used buy everyone, not just folks using 3e rules.
If I simply ignored the 4e changes, then I would be alienating the 4e players, and that is something I don't really want to do - my personal opinions of the new setting have no bearing on how I feel toward people still enjoying the setting.
I like symmetry, but only with lawful planes, and some neutral
I need it...its like a crutch for me, and too much fantasy (and even SciFi) lore is established about "The Balance" (including Star Wars' Force) .
I also use Marvel Comics a lot for inspiration, and one of my favorite 'Cosmic Entities' is the In-betweener, who's power is based on balance, by being able to summon ANYTHING's opposite. When he attempted to do that to Galactus (to fight him off), he found that nothing showed up. It turns out that he - who represents ALL opposites - was the opposite of Galactus - who represented uniqueness in the Universe with No opposite.
Ergo, even the 'lack of opposites' had it's opposite. :D
I have several ancients for Time, Chronus, elder titans, Chronepis, serpents, and the Sand Man, fey
I have all of that, but they are all lesser aspects of the original Time Conceptual (and Chronus and Chronepsis are one and the same in my over-cosmology). I also have Matter (Ymir), Chaos (Cthulhu who is slightly higher then the rest, being the 'second born' in the Multiverse), Entropy, and others. I have also modified the Creation Myth surrounding Jazirian and Ahriman to include their 'lesser brethren' - Tiamet and Bahamut (originally children of Chaos, created in imitation of THE ONE's children).
Very long, very complicated... but it works for me.
well, I just chose three most often concepts of the world creation myths, egg is also present in Finnish, Egyptian, Chinese, Indian, African etc. mythologies. The World Tree and Serpent similarly, and they were already in many mythologies of d&d races, tough there were imo too detached, and often contradictory.
I use Judaeo-Christian Mythology for my base, and just say every other religion is an interpretation of that (although it is a VERY loose base - practically unrecognizable except for a couple of key elements).
In fact, I have it where the birth of THE ONE is at the moment when consciousness frist forms in the cosmic soup of chaos (ginnungap), and expels the chaos from its forming consciousness (it took threee tries - thus the rule of three) by driving the 'darkness' forth with the words "Let their be Light!"
In the language of Creation, of course, which is sung, not spoken. ;)
Metatext are the individual sounds that make-up the Sublime Song - the song of Creation itself.
Thus creating the bright center of the Universe, and at the exact same moment, creating that which lies outside the universe - the Far Realms - and the being that rules them (know as the Cthulhu on some worlds - he is both GOD's child and brother - that part of him which he expelled to achieve consciousness).
vaguely, I have some books that we got cheap from a group of old players, I like the rakasta and many other monsters unique to it though
I'm using a bunch of Mystara stuff in the Utter east project (like the Thouls), and Rakasta play a major part of the ancient history of that border-region (the area that border the four main setting - Faerûn, Hordelands, Kara-Tur, and Zakhara), which includes the Utter east and the Yehimals (where the Dwarves first discovered the Black Diamond).
I have it where the Rakasta were various strains of mortal creatures - based on their Rakshasa masters - bred as servants. Humans (and Hin) where just considered 'food' at that time. This is when a tribe of Tabaxi where taken from the Chultan region of the proto-continent (this is all pre-Sundering) and changed into the Tabaxi cat-creatures of the southern Jungle regions (kara-Tur and Zakhara, along with some in Maztica and perhaps katashaka).
the world seems very similar to FR when it comes to real world analogies, and cause it's older some cool aspects of its mythology aren't in FR, that's pretty much why I use it
Yes and no - Ed had already taken some of the cooler concepts of Mystara and imbedded them in his world before TSR bought it, and the reverse is also true - Ed's Hin (Halflings) made it into Mytara when Ed did The Five Shires supplement for that setting - the two settings actually have a great deal in common. It's almost as if Mystara (Mystra? :D ) was the 'springboard' from wence much of (published) FR came.
In fact, Ed's Drow were very close to Mystara's Albino version, but TSR shoe-horned Gygax's GH version in in the published Realms. We also got Aranea and Avariel fro there.
Mark - who really needs to learn not to go on so... :embarrass
Edit: ALL of the above should be taken with a grain of salt - nearly all of it is homebrew and FAR from being canon.
shadow elves have stupid ears and clothing
I was planning to use Lupins (as a natural adversary of the Rakasta) in the lower K-T region, but I'm second-thinking that now. I think I will put them into Guge now, and have them 'mutate' into the Shifters (Eb) come 4e. I already have the ancient Hutaakan civilization in the Raurin Basin LONG before the Imaskari came along (it was just TOO good a fit), and the Lupin would have been the devolved remnants of that once-great civilization (which arose from the even older Gnollish empire of Urgnarash).
Lots and lots of great Fey lore in the Mystara setting - I hope if they ever do a 4e book on the Fey - we never did get one in 3e (or 2e, for that matter) - they use some of that old - and still excellent - lore.
I loved the Mystarran Imps - the Prime material ones, not ones from the outer planes.
And the list of Familiars was very cool as well (a different one for each Alignmnet axis).
Lots of great material just going to waste - as much as I may regret saying this, I would love to see them re-do Mystara for 4e; it was just such a vast and cool setting.
also I like to use phanatons, actaeons, pegataurs, shargughs, hsiao, kna (batrachi), coltpixies, dusanu (for Malatra), elementals, gyerians (aeree), magens (cool constructs), scamilles, sollux (related to vaati)
Hutakaans are good for scaring players with arcanaloths
I told you it was ANCIENT. :D
Now... about them Fey critters....
Fiends do evolve - at least they used to. Originally, they all started out as level 1's (manes and Lemure) and 'moved up the ladder'. I was unaware that that had changed.
no it hasn't changed, I was just making a distinction between those that spawn directly from a plane, and those created from mortal souls
to clarify, I think that fey shouldn't be of pure ''spiritstuff'' like fiends or celestials, but something in that exists between both worlds
Ahhhhh... you haven't been following the Kara-Tur thread, have you?
some parts, not this one, wasn't on the site for a year
Toril was just one world the Shou came too... Earth was another.
The Easterners didn't come from our Earth - both groups had a common ancestry from yet another world.
whoa, I'm not familiar with Spelljammer, never liked the basic idea, but this is great
My problem is that I'm constantly revising my take on things, so that EVERYTHING works within my cosmic model. It's my own magical version of the theory of Relativity (which also needs to be incorporated). Ergo, EVERY book, comic, and game setting I have ever read (including SciFi), and every TV program and Movie I have ever seen, must all work within this model... which isn't easy.
yea I do that, but not everything, only those that are worthy and don't break the general theme of the world, so not much sci-fi. I like that magic has some vague, pseudoscientific explanation, and cause FR has so much real world analogues, historical pseudoscience can be a good source.
On a much smaller scale, that means I have to rectify the differences between 'Eastern Elementalism', and 'Western Elementalism' - it doesn't suit to have two seperate sets of game rules - that just bogs things down - one of 3e's downfalls. It is so much easier to say they are the same (and cover the 'Metal' problem with a grammatical error), and simply say that the 5th element - Life - became the Druidic traditions found in the west.
ok, personally I wouldn't leave that to grammatical errors, different traditions are fine, I made Celtic pantheon fey, so the western tradition is based on Cernunnos/Herne/Erastil, the eastern one is more versatile, there are bladeling metal druids in Acheron.
Life, I don't consider it an element, elements should be building blocks, to constitute something, so Life is a result of the interaction between material and spiritual elements. Again, metal and wood aren't raw elements, both are a mixture of earth and some other basic elements.
Aeriee = Air (no-brainer there)
Batrachi = Water (fairly simple, considering their 'decendents')
Fey = Earth (another easy one - Fey are spirits of the earth given flesh)
Sarrukh = Fire (think Dinos & volcanos here - this one's the only stretch)
Humans = 'Life', the mysterious '5th Element', and is why they are a The Race of Destinty. They embrace a balance of all the other elements.
I like that idea, with few adjustments
fey - earth, represents the root, base chakra, that's why the first element created from ethereal in Elemental Core of the World Tree is earth-pith, it also explains their knowledge of ley lines
batrachi - that's why they're shapechangers, it represents the adaptability of water
sarrukh - fire, but representing the energy (like in that book about Immortals) of life(forms) that they like to manipulate, they have fiery eyes, that ''fire'' quickly burns out in them, that's why they sleep so much
I also use Marvel Comics a lot for inspiration, and one of my favorite 'Cosmic Entities' is the In-betweener, who's power is based on balance, by being able to summon ANYTHING's opposite. When he attempted to do that to Galactus (to fight him off), he found that nothing showed up. It turns out that he - who represents ALL opposites - was the opposite of Galactus - who represented uniqueness in the Universe with No opposite.
seems like a good option for a rilmani power
don't know much about comics, the Phoenix was more mythological, the rebirth from ashes part, I'm aware there is something similar in Marvel, now that I look at it, their cosmology looks very well thought out and similar, might be useful ...
I have all of that, but they are all lesser aspects of the original Time Conceptual (and Chronus and Chronepsis are one and the same in my over-cosmology). I also have Matter (Ymir), Chaos (Cthulhu who is slightly higher then the rest, being the 'second born' in the Multiverse), Entropy, and others. I have also modified the Creation Myth surrounding Jazirian and Ahriman to include their 'lesser brethren' - Tiamet and Bahamut (originally children of Chaos, created in imitation of THE ONE's children).
I simplified all this, to the rule of three, there are basically three pantheons or groups of powers, fey (or other spirits of ethereal possibility and chaos), giants (titans and giants are forms of humans, Ymir, matter, was initial Jotunheim) and serpents (they are the law and balance, including Io, Shekinester, different Jade Emperor etc., they represent something like the gnostic form of evil, the universe in endless cycles of stagnation, Ahriman and Jazirian were helions, not helions from Mystara, but LN serpents of fire, when Mechanus was more primal, there were vaati of air etc.).
So Chronus and Chronepsis are opposed, it's one of the reasons the titan is imprisoned in Carceri. Cthulhu is not chaos, but something else entirely.
I use Judaeo-Christian Mythology for my base
I don't like the story from Guide to Hell and consider it law propaganda, chaos should be equally represented in the forming of the multiverse, not just as the source, same with the good and evil (Grey Waste and Elysium), it's a balance thing.
Only used Canaanite-Ugaritic-Phoenician mythology for elder 'loths. Meaning all those with names like Baal or Bel in Baator are either yugoloth spies or originate from the purge of law from their ranks done by the Heart of Darkness.
In fact, I have it where the birth of THE ONE is at the moment when consciousness frist forms in the cosmic soup of chaos (ginnungap), and expels the chaos from its forming consciousness (it took threee tries - thus the rule of three) by driving the 'darkness' forth with the words "Let their be Light!"
I found the One behind it all concept bothersome, just a personal preference, maybe as the Demiurge, even that better leave to mystery
actually I like the gods initially as mortal creations, so god or demigod means just how many mortal followers it has, not necessarily that god is more powerful than a demigod
which includes the Utter east and the Yehimals (where the Dwarves first discovered the Black Diamond).
wouldn't that mean that the dwarves were much longer in FR
I have it where the Rakasta were various strains of mortal creatures - based on their Rakshasa masters - bred as servants.
interesting, never thought of connecting them, in 4e there are ravaastas also, who are partially similar to arcanaloths
for rakshasa I have a different origin, ''raksh'' means to guard in sanskrt, so they're fallen guardinals, tigerals or something
The original name for those Feline Fiends was Ra's kaasta - Kaasta being an Abyssal word for 'servant', or more accurately, 'Soldier', with a slave connotation (hence the race of Khaastas that serve Demogorgon).
Part of my Mythology:
Show
In the dim recesses of time, back when the worlds were yet young, there came to be a great war in the heavens, and the gods formed-up into two sides, and pulled every Fiendish and Celestial race into their conflict in the process.
The Pharaonic Pantheon arrived late, having been detained by Set (on purpose), and found that while many of their godly allies had vast armies to fight in the coming battle for them, the Pharaonic Gods stood alone.
Ra called upon Baast, who's primary mission had always been to watch-out for the trickery of Set - only a cat had the stealthiness and hunter-cunning to stalk the Serpent (thats Egyptian canon, btw). Ra blamed Baast for not having seen Set's ploy, and charged her with finding him an army. By his word, he said that she would no longer be a member of their family if she failed the Pharaonic Gods.
Feeling both ashamed at her failure and yet still prideful (ever prideful, are cats...), she bespoke Ra, and said "I will find you your army, but know this - I will go where I will. You will except me as one of you when I am amongst you, but I will stray elsewhere when it suits me to do so." Ra agreed to these terms, and off Baast went, to search all the Outer and Inner Planes for a group that had not yet committed to the coming battle.
In a far corner of a distant plane, she came across a group of demons merely lounging about, enjoying their respite from the Bloodwar (which had been postponed until after the gods had all killed each other). She asked them if they would not like to be in the coming battle, and to her shock they said they'd rather not. Never before had she met demons that didn't jump at the opportunity to rend flesh and cause carnage. It appeared she had found demons that possessed a quality no other had - common sense.
Ther leader, Vanna, steped forth, and ask "what do the gods offer us, to fight and die for them?", and Baast said, "What is it you most desire?"
The leader looked about at his fellow demons, and then turned to Baast, smiling a toothy grin "My people want... focus".
"Focus", Baast said, "What do you mean by Focus?" and Vanna answered "In all the untold mllenia the Bloodwar hath raged, and will rage, never are the demons able to score a major victory. We out-number the Devils a thousand to one, for the legions of the Abyss are truly endless, and yet we can never score more then a minor victory, or hold onto anything we take. This is because we lack FOCUS. The Devils have focus - they can relentlessly persue something for centuries, and work the deeper machinations required to maintain control over mortal minions."
Baast laughed then, and said "What you seek is patience, my good Demon-Lord, and I've never met a Demon with any."
Vanna said "That is what we require, and if you give us this thing, we will fight for your gods". And so Baast took the army of feral demons before Ra, high god of the Pharaonic Pantheon, and told them of their offer.
Ra looked upon Vanna, and spoke thus "You wish to have focus, and this you shall have, but you are now MY creatures, for the duration of this war, to order how I will, and die as I command".
"Agreed", said Vanna, and Ra waved his hand, and the mighty host was filled with light - golden light that pained them, and felt like spikes driven into their heads. And the when the light faded, Vanna - and all the others - stood blinking their eyes, as if seeing the world for the first time. They looked upon each other, and they had been changed in body as well as mind.
"Wha... what have you done?!" said the leader of the Demonic Horde. "I have driven the Chaos from your minds, so that now you only know the law that is normally the devil's due", spoke Ra, for such was the truth of things.
"And these forms?", said Vanna, looking at his paws and the great, Cat-like faces of his troops, "what of that?"
"I chose this shape so that all will know it is Baast who has lead you here, and will lead you into battle", said Ra, "and while you be my creatures for the tenure of this war, all shall know until the end of time that it was Baast who delivered you from the Abyss and brought you this new beginning".
And then Vanna grinned a wicked grin, and said "We are ordinary demons no more - we, the servants of Ra, the Ra'Kaasta, have become greater then any other demons, for we possess the shear power of our Demon heritage coupled with the cunning of law. I am now Ra'Vanna - the General of Ra!"
And a great shout went up from the army of Demons - the newly re-born Rakaasta "Ra-Vanna, Ra-vanna, Ravanna!!!", and Ra'Vanna smiled yet again, for never before have so many demons had a common purpose. He new in his vile and wicked heart that HIS Ra'Kaasta will be the scurge of mortal-kind, a far greater threat then the devils ever were.
And so it was, but as it happens, the war never occurred. The Draconic Gods left the battlefield en'mass before it even began, and without their mighty presensce, many of the other evil gods turned tail and fled. The Ra'Kaasta were allowed to go about their business, on the promise that if the war should ever start anew, they must come and fulfill their contract. They changed their name to Ra'kshasa - Kshasa meaning 'Prince' in Abyssal, as a last dig at the Pharaonic Gods, whom they didn't have to serve despite the boon they recieved. Ra's Princes - a group of malignant beings who would ever after hound mankind and others, would forever bear the name of the God who must always face his shame for their creation.
And they, in turn, forever wear the face of Baast.
The Pharaonic Pantheon arrived late, having been detained by Set (on purpose), and found that while many of their godly allies had vast armies to fight in the coming battle for them, the Pharaonic Gods stood alone.
Ra called upon Baast, who's primary mission had always been to watch-out for the trickery of Set - only a cat had the stealthiness and hunter-cunning to stalk the Serpent (thats Egyptian canon, btw). Ra blamed Baast for not having seen Set's ploy, and charged her with finding him an army. By his word, he said that she would no longer be a member of their family if she failed the Pharaonic Gods.
Feeling both ashamed at her failure and yet still prideful (ever prideful, are cats...), she bespoke Ra, and said "I will find you your army, but know this - I will go where I will. You will except me as one of you when I am amongst you, but I will stray elsewhere when it suits me to do so." Ra agreed to these terms, and off Baast went, to search all the Outer and Inner Planes for a group that had not yet committed to the coming battle.
In a far corner of a distant plane, she came across a group of demons merely lounging about, enjoying their respite from the Bloodwar (which had been postponed until after the gods had all killed each other). She asked them if they would not like to be in the coming battle, and to her shock they said they'd rather not. Never before had she met demons that didn't jump at the opportunity to rend flesh and cause carnage. It appeared she had found demons that possessed a quality no other had - common sense.
Ther leader, Vanna, steped forth, and ask "what do the gods offer us, to fight and die for them?", and Baast said, "What is it you most desire?"
The leader looked about at his fellow demons, and then turned to Baast, smiling a toothy grin "My people want... focus".
"Focus", Baast said, "What do you mean by Focus?" and Vanna answered "In all the untold mllenia the Bloodwar hath raged, and will rage, never are the demons able to score a major victory. We out-number the Devils a thousand to one, for the legions of the Abyss are truly endless, and yet we can never score more then a minor victory, or hold onto anything we take. This is because we lack FOCUS. The Devils have focus - they can relentlessly persue something for centuries, and work the deeper machinations required to maintain control over mortal minions."
Baast laughed then, and said "What you seek is patience, my good Demon-Lord, and I've never met a Demon with any."
Vanna said "That is what we require, and if you give us this thing, we will fight for your gods". And so Baast took the army of feral demons before Ra, high god of the Pharaonic Pantheon, and told them of their offer.
Ra looked upon Vanna, and spoke thus "You wish to have focus, and this you shall have, but you are now MY creatures, for the duration of this war, to order how I will, and die as I command".
"Agreed", said Vanna, and Ra waved his hand, and the mighty host was filled with light - golden light that pained them, and felt like spikes driven into their heads. And the when the light faded, Vanna - and all the others - stood blinking their eyes, as if seeing the world for the first time. They looked upon each other, and they had been changed in body as well as mind.
"Wha... what have you done?!" said the leader of the Demonic Horde. "I have driven the Chaos from your minds, so that now you only know the law that is normally the devil's due", spoke Ra, for such was the truth of things.
"And these forms?", said Vanna, looking at his paws and the great, Cat-like faces of his troops, "what of that?"
"I chose this shape so that all will know it is Baast who has lead you here, and will lead you into battle", said Ra, "and while you be my creatures for the tenure of this war, all shall know until the end of time that it was Baast who delivered you from the Abyss and brought you this new beginning".
And then Vanna grinned a wicked grin, and said "We are ordinary demons no more - we, the servants of Ra, the Ra'Kaasta, have become greater then any other demons, for we possess the shear power of our Demon heritage coupled with the cunning of law. I am now Ra'Vanna - the General of Ra!"
And a great shout went up from the army of Demons - the newly re-born Rakaasta "Ra-Vanna, Ra-vanna, Ravanna!!!", and Ra'Vanna smiled yet again, for never before have so many demons had a common purpose. He new in his vile and wicked heart that HIS Ra'Kaasta will be the scurge of mortal-kind, a far greater threat then the devils ever were.
And so it was, but as it happens, the war never occurred. The Draconic Gods left the battlefield en'mass before it even began, and without their mighty presensce, many of the other evil gods turned tail and fled. The Ra'Kaasta were allowed to go about their business, on the promise that if the war should ever start anew, they must come and fulfill their contract. They changed their name to Ra'kshasa - Kshasa meaning 'Prince' in Abyssal, as a last dig at the Pharaonic Gods, whom they didn't have to serve despite the boon they recieved. Ra's Princes - a group of malignant beings who would ever after hound mankind and others, would forever bear the name of the God who must always face his shame for their creation.
And they, in turn, forever wear the face of Baast.
wouldn't that mean that the dwarves were much longer in FR
They were.
All we have is a canon reference to their first appearance. Nowhere does it say when they arrived on Toril.
And even that reference is ancient, -16000 DR to be exact. Plenty of time for the Dwarves to have screwed-up, and then bounced back, and only becoming known to humans at that later time.
tough I like that they arrived earlier
MT, that's an entertaining story
why Egyptians and not Indians? cause they are zoomorphic?
in our Eastern Realms, I don't know much about local canon, they're enemies of Sages (monastic immortals) and devas of the Bureaucracy, similar to the mythology
The Rakshasas were enemies of most of the Vedic Gods, hence I would not use them for their creation... who says the Vedic and Pharaonic Pantheons weren't on opposite sides of that war?
I've never detailed that 'War in the Heavens' - its easier to just use it as a Deux ex machina to explain stuff away. I've toyed with the thought that it wasn't about good or evil though - more about law vs. Chaos, but even that isn't a such a great fit.
I think it was just a free-for-all that got out of hand. :D
and where they lived before they had settlements? caves?
Perhaps primitive Dwarves were nomads?
Considering they no longer have dark Vision in 4e, I would think they evolved on the surface and then went Underground... but we stiil have 'old lore' saying they did have dark vision at one point (which is neither here nor there, given evolution, magic, and gods).
I'm thinking that the Dwarves true form is that of the Urdunnir - that race is really a throw-back to an earlier stage of evolution. If we make primordial Dwarves (wow... does that ever sound.. correct...) out to be closer to earth Elementals - which suits them well - then they would have had no need for settlements.
Hmmmm... perhaps if the Urdunnir were like Dwarven crowmagnon man, then the Galeb Duhr would have been like neanderthals! Or perhaps they are more like 'the missing link' between Dwarf and Elemental. :D
Considering they no longer have dark Vision in 4e, I would think they evolved on the surface and then went Underground... but we stiil have 'old lore' saying they did have dark vision at one point (which is neither here nor there, given evolution, magic, and gods).
-You can't "properly" take new information (like the Dwarves without Darkvision) and "shoe horn" it in to older information.
-As Steve Schend said, "You can state that "this is how it is now" and claim that "it's always been like this;" that's fine from a game rule POV, but as for the lore already established, it can't be dismissed so readily. Thus, within the game, yes, [the issue that was being discussed]. However, as a matter of story and narrative and lore, there's differences that won't affect your game at all (such as [issue that was being discussed]) that can be left alone. That's my suggestion--honor the older lore, rather than force a lot of unnecessary changes retroactively because of a decision made for the game side of things."
Its one of the few 4e things I agree with - I have NEVER seen a Dwarven mine/Citadel/Cavern/whatever NOT illustrated with torches!
They ALWAYS have a light source, which made Darkvision ridiculous for them. Plus, it created the rules-conundrum of Dwarves being the ONLY race with dark vision that didn't have light-senstivity!
It made NO sense - Low-light is a much better fit for them (at least now, in 'modern' times).
And I'm a fan of dwarves, and have played many in my day, and I just wanted to make that clear before I'm inundated by flames from all the dwarf-lovers out there. It doesn't matter how much I like a race - if they have an ability that doesn't make sense, they should lose it, end of story.
Its one of the few 4e things I agree with - I have NEVER seen a Dwarven mine/Citadel/Cavern/whatever NOT illustrated with torches!
-If I said I had, would that change things?
Because of the 'Ra' in their name, which shoe-horns pefectly into 'Kaasta' being and infernal word for Soldier/servant (like Mamluks), and the obvious matching aestheitics of both Baast (who I like to hint as being 'beyond her pantheon' long before FR) and the Rakshasas.
ok
The Rakshasas were enemies of most of the Vedic Gods, hence I would not use them for their creation... who says the Vedic and Pharaonic Pantheons weren't on opposite sides of that war?
Thanks for that, it gave me an idea, never thought of connecting rakshasas to the pharaohs. Most of my Egyptian pantheon is dead, except S(s)et(h) and the Order of the Black Circle. Also Bes and Black Bess (Beshaba), but that's some other story. Conflict with the Bureaucracy (serpents) fits. I use the azlanti myth from Golarion. Basically the Egyptian gods are all ascended mortals, Thoth the Atlantean was the first. Similar to hermeticism. So in the background of that conflict was guardinals vs. Sages, who are both monastic.
I've never detailed that 'War in the Heavens' - its easier to just use it as a Deux ex machina to explain stuff away. I've toyed with the thought that it wasn't about good or evil though - more about law vs. Chaos, but even that isn't a such a great fit.
your war seems similar to the 4e myths
tough gods capable of pausing the Blood War, impossible imo
Perhaps primitive Dwarves were nomads?
I'm thinking that the Dwarves true form is that of the Urdunnir - that race is really a throw-back to an earlier stage of evolution. If we make primordial Dwarves (wow... does that ever sound.. correct...) out to be closer to earth Elementals - which suits them well - then they would have had no need for settlements.
Hmmmm... perhaps if the Urdunnir were like Dwarven crowmaagnon man, then the Galeb Duhr would have ben like neanderthals! Or perhaps they are more like 'the missing link' between dwarf and Elemental. :D
maybe, I like that the urdunnir are older, I already have that Grome created dwarves, his realm is the Mountain of Urdu in the Outlands, he's like Aule, Moradin is like Durin
note that cromagnons are biologically equal to the modern man
-If I said I had, would that change things?
A piece of artwork depicting Dwarven caverns without torches?
I'm sure some exist... but my point was, that in illustrations and in stories (novels, comics, source..), Dwarven tunnels and structures are nearly always depicted illuminated, which wouldn't be the case, if they had true dark vision.
It just makes more sense, rules-wise, for them to have Low-light vision as well. Why should they be the ONLY exception to the light-sensitivity rule?
If Dwarves have Darkvision, then they MUST also have light sensitivity.
your war seems similar to the 4e myths
tough gods capable of pausing the Blood War, impossible imo
I'm talking waaaaaay back - near the start of the Bloodwar, or perhaps even before it (or maybe the Godwar instigated it?)
And I had my 'primordial war' long before most of the designers working on FR today ever started designing - thats been my take since I was 16, and I based it on the Greek Myths in which the Gods battled the Titans for supremacy, and also a little bit of Michaell Moorcock's cosmology, with the eternal war between Law and Chaos.
Also, that particular war never happened - the Dragons mended their own feud and left together, and the whole thing fell apart after that (sparking dozens of 'smaller wars'.)
There was an earlier cosmic conflict, but the gods weren't even involved. The cycle always repeates, and the first time around it was the Conceptuals (Titans, Jotuns, Overgods, etc) vs the Elder Gods, at the beginning of time. Thats the war in which Ymir perished, and his body was made into the Prime Material Palne.
maybe, I like that the urdunnir are older, I already have that Grome created dwarves, he's realm is the Mountain of Urdu in the Outlands, he's like Aule, Moradin is like Durin
Right, so Grome created the Galeb Duhr, some of which slowly evolved (with deific help?) into the Urdunnir , and eventually into the Dwarves we know of today (all the various breeds, including those 'skinny' eastern ones).
note that cromagnons are biologically equal to the modern man
Well, my point was that the Dwarves evolved, even if they were created whole-cloth at some point by a god or Elemental Lord.
Dwarves are 'of the Earth', but perhaps those that deal with surface races have "lost their way", and are slowly losing their links to the Earth?
In that way, 'regular' Dwarves would look at Urdunnir with a mixture of pity and piety - they harken back to an earlier time. On the other hand, the Urdunnir would consider modern dwarves 'lost', and pity them in return.
Just my take, for what it's worth.
also the only races galeb dhur work with are treants and occasionally pechs, maybe the fey creator race(s) was more elemental in nature
elves evolving, LK hates that :evillaugh
In a thousand years, a group of humans can migrate from the Equator to the Northpole, and be perfectly adapted to the climate. Elves live for a thousand years - it is entirely possible for an Elf to live through an entire 'Ice Age', ergo they had to be able to adapt on an individual basis, and cannot wait for 'generations' to pass.
That is why Elves are not as readily affected by temperture extremes, and also why surface Elves can 'turn into' Sea Elves at will.
Elves can become what they want to become, literally, on a prayer.
Other long-lived races may have a little bit of this as well, but none as powerful as the Elves.
Humans don't need it - we breed like cockaroaches, and adapt just as easily. A hundred years is nothing to an Elf, for humans, five generations could have come and went, and any diseases or anything else that we were effected by are weeded out by Darwinism.
That which doesn't kill us makes us stronger.
So an Elf must learn to do on his own what dozens and dozens of generations of humans does by evolution.
Their 'evolution' is internalized.
==============================================
One more thing - the Black Diamond wound up as the center piece to the Crown of Horns. :D
tough I think that humans also sometimes evolve in a moment, but collectively, like in the Morphic Field theory
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that's one of my favorite pictures in FR
I have the same thoughts and can't find her mention in the old fr books, so far.
Crown of Thorns...
Queen of Thorns...
I'm sure some exist... but my point was, that in illustrations and in stories (novels, comics, source..), Dwarven tunnels and structures are nearly always depicted illuminated, which wouldn't be the case, if they had true dark vision.
Darkvision only works up to sixty feet. If they want to see further than that, they need torches.
It just makes more sense, rules-wise, for them to have Low-light vision as well. Why should they be the ONLY exception to the light-sensitivity rule?
If Dwarves have Darkvision, then they MUST also have light sensitivity.
Not only are dwarves not the only "exception," but there is, in fact, no rule for them to be excepted from. Or the rule is the opposite of what you thought it was.
Some creatures who, in 3e, had darkvision but not light sensitivity: dwarves, svirfneblin, deep halflings, goblins, hobgoblins, bugbears, gnolls, tieflings, aasimar, all other outsiders, ghouls, most other undead. I'm sure there were others. This seems to be the rule, rather than the exception.
Some creatures who, in 3e, had both darkvision and light sensitivity: orcs, kobolds, drow, vampires. There could be others. I kind of doubt it at present. I think these were the exceptions rather than the rule.
Therefore, whatever the explanation is for the light sensitivity of a handful of creatures, it isn't their darkvision.
The question then arises: what is the common factor here? Drow and orcs both have patron deities who annoyed Corellon Larethian, so some sort of divine curse might well be in play; however, the nature of drow and orcish light sensitivity is different, so they would have to be two separate curses. The only one who seems to even notice Kurtulmak is Garl Glittergold, and he doesn't seem to be in the habit of cursing entire races as Corellon is; perhaps both Corellon and Garl begged a favor from a solar deity, perhaps Amaunator. I really doubt kobolds are particularly cursed, though; being reptiles, they're on an entirely different evolutionary track, and this just happens to be how they evolved.
Still, if any mistake was made, I don't think it was in not giving dwarves light sensitivity, but rather in giving it to kobolds, who don't seem to need it. They aren't even exclusively subterranean. Goblins had light sensitivity in 2e (hobgoblins didn't), but we can't even discuss 2e in this context or we have to bring up elves, gnomes, and all the other creatures who had infravision back then. So never mind.
Vampires obviously have some sort of curse from a solar deity or what have you, so they can be lumped in with orcs and drow, possibly. Kobolds still stick out like a sore thumb, assuming kobolds have thumbs. I've had too much caffeine and I'm not thinking coherently, I'm afraid. Anyway, this is pretty much what I wanted to say a few hours ago, probably. I hope your evening is going well, if it's evening for you?
Oh, basically, the gist... I don't think either of your objections concerning dwarves and darkvision passes muster. The whole light-sensitivity issue is factually incorrect. And basically all of the canonical dwarven holds in Faerun are underground, right? Probably? So that's a lot of lore to overwrite for the sake of a change that, as I recall, was justified in Races and Classes as purely an aesthetic choice, because they thought dwarven holds looked better in the artwork if you could see them from outside. Does Deep Shanatar not exist anymore? Did Mithral Hall never have a shadow dragon problem? Yes. Or no. Yes. Was this even under discussion? I am done writing for now. Thank you.
Three more with light sensitivity: derro, deep dwarves, duergar. All dwarven races who never have any reason to go to the surface. So the difference between them and common gold dwarves and whatnot is that gold dwarves sometimes blink at the sun. Sounds like pure adaption, rather than a curse from Moradin, because why would Moradin curse the deep dwarves? Though why don't svirfneblin have it? Sounds like an oversight with svirfneblin; anyway, it seems generally more an Underdark thing than a darkvision thing. Maybe Garl Glittergold somehow transferred svirfneblin sensitivity to kobolds as part of a prank. Oh, and: svirfneblin had ultravision in 1e, rather than infravision. Perhaps that's a factor. Possibly. Now we're into 1e now? Deep.
Mind flayers are another one with darkvision but no light sensitivity. And aboleths. I guess their eyeballs are just too alien to work like underdark dwarves do. Also no divine curse, if that's what's going on. I'm a little calmer now, I think. Yes.
bump, so is there some information about any fey realms and cities, not including elves?
Here is a link to the Eladrin city of Mithrendain
This city has a connection where it is under attack by a Fomorian Lord I believe. In one of the Dungeon Magazines, there is also a module for the city revolving around this. (I think.) So, it may have some information about the Fomorian realm. this is generic D&D material but can be transferred easily to FR.
Here is the module:
Dark Heart of Mithrendain
I haven't looked through it so I don't know if it has much (any?) information on the fomorian realm.
Sometimes common sense takes precedence over rules - you can't have rules that only apply some of the time.
Here is a link to the Eladrin city of Mithrendain
This city has a connection where it is under attack by a Fomorian Lord I believe. In one of the Dungeon Magazines, there is also a module for the city revolving around this. (I think.) So, it may have some information about the Fomorian realm. this is generic D&D material but can be transferred easily to FR.
Here is the module:
Dark Heart of Mithrendain
I haven't looked through it so I don't know if it has much (any?) information on the fomorian realm.
thank you, but Mithrendain is basically elves, there are mentions of fomorian realms in the MotP, I meant are there any pixie or sylph communities, preferably with many different fey races
They had to 'coolify' Dryads in 4e, just ro make them decent encounters - they rurned them into Lady deathstrike.
And Warhammer did the same exact thing first - I know, because I have a Wood Elf army and have a bunch of those things long before 4e was even a gleem in WotC's eye.
I don't mind them in WHFB, because thats about miniatures combat, and not RPGing, but I don't like them in D&D... then again, I guess that makes them perfect for 4e.
Anyway, if it ain't "scarey, sexy, cool", there's an extremely slim chance will ever see a lot of things anymore, including all the 'cutesy' Fey.
If something has darkvision, then it should have low-light sensitivity.
Sometimes common sense takes precedence over rules - you can't have rules that only apply some of the time.
-That's not as anywhere as clear cut as you seem to imply. Dwarves, who were proverbial amphibians- they saw in darkness and in light- should be light sensitive? Even those who live on, or close to the surface? Races that live their lives without any contact with sunlight, I agree should have light sensitivity. Not all races, however.
If something has darkvision, then it should have low-light sensitivity.
Sometimes common sense takes precedence over rules - you can't have rules that only apply some of the time.
Since it's by far more common for creatures with darkvision to not have light sensitivity, then that seems like the rule. By your logic, nobody should have light sensitivity. There's never been any sort of rule that said being able to see in the dark for a meager sixty feet should make it difficult to see in the day.
But I agree with Karsus; the crucial element is whether or not the race spends much time on the surface. Gold and shield dwarves do, but duergar, illithids, and svirfneblin don't.
On the other hand, the origin of the fact that orcs have light sensitivity and hobgoblins don't is Tolkien; the hobgoblins are inspired on Tolkien's Uruk-hai. It didn't seem to bother Tolkien to have rules that only apply some of the time. There's nothing wrong with exceptions.
If something has darkvision, then it should have low-light sensitivity.
Sometimes common sense takes precedence over rules - you can't have rules that only apply some of the time.
Common sense?
So, dragons should have lowlight sensitivity? (They had lowlight and darkvision in third, I am not sure what they have in 4th off the top of my head...)
In the RW, nocturnal creatures have problems with full-daylight. Low-light would be the equvalent of a cat (which can adapt to bright-light with pupil dilation, just as humans can), but Darkvision would be more akin to an Owl, or even a bat - Bright light should blind a creature who is used to going about in total darkness all the time.
IMGs, a player playing a Dwarf can choose either low-light or Darkvision (coming from a surface settlement or clan-hold), but if they choose Darkvsion, they also have light-sensitivity, which means they need to take the light-adaption Feat - you can't get the better benefit without paying for it somehow.
However, I give Feats at every level, and have them divided-up by power; light-sensitivity becomes a 'column 'B' Feat for those off-levels when you get a lesser Feat.
I'm redesigning that once again, addng in a third category for racial feats - I seem to like that idea from 4e, and will put my own system slighty closer to the 3e Feat-progression (giving 'Class 'A' Feats every third level).
I suppose magic overides common sense.
In the RW, nocturnal creatures have problems with full-daylight. Low-light would be the equvalent of a cat (which can adapt to bright-light with pupil dilation, just as humans can), but Darkvision would be more akin to an Owl, or even a bat - Bright light should blind a creature who is used to going about in total darkness all the time.
-In real life, I don't think there is such thing as what D&D Darkvision is.
-As far as I know, there aren't any actual animals that have "Darkvision". Cats, dogs, owls, whatever, they have "Low Light Vision". It's been a while, so I forget the full term, but there is a stricture in the eye that some (maybe all?) animals have, behind the retina, called the 'whatever lucidum' (the Latin root involving 'light', which is the only reason I still remember). The retina is the part of the eye that absorbs light and turns it into images in our brains that we can recognize as sight. The 'whatever lucidum' absorbs extra light and shines it into the retina, or something to that effect, so that the animal's retina has extra light, and can send it's brain impulses that create sight. In the end, though, those animals are still needing light, however minute, to be present. If absolutely no light is present, they still won't be able to see.
-When things evolve with absolutely no light, that's what produces nasty things like cavefish (those things are nasty, and make me shiver. Anything that has evolved in and adapted to pure darkness does that to me, really), that don't have eyes, period. If you shine a light in something like a cavefish's face, nothing is going to happen, because it doesn't have eyes (ewww!).
For those who want a hard and fast rule, perhaps those with a darkvision range of 90' or greater have light sensitivity, while those with a darkvision range of less don't. That would be equally as consistent, and equally as good an analogy to the real world, though no less arbitrary, as the darkvision/low-light distinction.
As I said before, it seems likely that the true distinction should be those who dwell in the Underdark and those who dwell closer to the surface, where regular exposure to sunlight is possible. The latter usually have darkvision in a 60' range, while the former generally have it in a 90' range.
For those who want a hard and fast rule, perhaps those with a darkvision range of 90' or greater have light sensitivity, while those with a darkvision range of less don't. That would be equally as consistent, and equally as good an analogy to the real world, though no less arbitrary, as the darkvision/low-light distinction.
As I said before, it seems likely that the true distinction should be those who dwell in the Underdark and those who dwell closer to the surface, where regular exposure to sunlight is possible. The latter usually have darkvision in a 60' range, while the former generally have it in a 90' range.
-Yeah, that is something that I've noticed that generally holds true: the races that seem more light acclimated normally have a shorter sight of distance with darkvision.
-Tying this back to the topic of the thread, many Fey/Sylvan creatures have Low-Light Vision/Darkvision, and many (not all) of such creatures aren't necessarily related to caves, darkness, and so on, so Low-Light Vision/Darkvision don't need to be fully related to light and darkness, as they can be part of "intelligent design" of sorts, as opposed to evolution.
"Deep Drow", who have evolved without eyes, and used a form of sonic sense (echolocation).
I like that 90' rule - it definately works for me. I may modify it just a tad: Give a -1 per 30' increment over 60', or some such.
-Hmm...Perhaps a bunch of Drow, after being transformed as Drow, turned to the Eilistraee and Seldarine, and were attempting to bring mainstream Drow society out of Lolth's grip, and back into that of the Seldarine. She cursed them, literally, making sure that they'd never see the light of the surface world again.
-Miraluca Drow. Perhaps with some kind of Fey blessing, of sorts (Unseelie, perhaps), because I've always, for whatever reason, thought of the Miraluca as Fey-like.
Ooooh, go for it!