On page 73 of the Forgotten Realms Campagin book under Pantheons, Asmodeus is listed as a greater god, specifically "an ancient diety turned arch-devil." There is no problem with that statement. In relation to the Blood War, the book mentions Azuth (former lesser god associated with magic) being consumed by Asmodeus and with that power, "ended the Blood War by pushing the Abyss to the bottom of the Elemental Chaos."
Okay, I can accept that as a portion of the change within the 4th edition lore. Keep in mind however, I felt shocked that the Blood War would end so trivially within the confines of only a few sentences.
However, in direct contradiction to this, we have the cosmology as pushed forth by the latest Manual of the Planes.
In the sidebar on page 89 of the MOTP, we get a brief description of the Blood War still being fought. The book agrees with Forgotten Realms that the Abyss is at the bottom of the Elemental Chaos, but fails to mention any end of the Blood War. There is mention of a truce, but this hardly qualifies as the distinct and dramatic words that are mentioned by the Forgotten Realms book, and we have no knowledge of where this truce came from. Asmodeus is not shown to have ascended in any power whatsoever within the pages of the Manual of the Planes, and no mention (as far as I have read) that he has personally involved himself within causing this truce. We also get a slightly different backstory, with him being a fallen angel of a previous god and the reason behind the Blood War is that Asmodeus stole a piece of the Abyss and now the demons of the Abyss want it back. There is no mention of recent history (as proposed by Forgotten Realms), and changes the composition of the conflict that is supposedly ended by Asmodeus himself.
Further, when looking at Astral Sea domains of deities within the Forgotten Realms pantheon, Lloth's Demonweb is listed within this region (with portal connections to the Abyss) on page 63 of the Campaign Book, while the Manual of the Planes has it listed specifically in the Abyss on page 81. As of the events from the War of the Spider Queen, her realm was seperated from the Abyss and therefore corresponds with Forgotten Realms cosmology. Why the sudden reversal in her address?
I've read over Manual of the Planes once already and have doubled back to the specific sections that are causing me concern. Are these contradictions real? Is there other sections of either book I am missing?
Or is there some other vital information I am missing that is not found within either text? Are the authors of each book able to print material that runs counter to other published material within the same edition? Is there some errata I have not found yet that corrects these mistakes? Any information on this matter would help me understand the differences each book has so far in their cosmology.
in generic 4th ed (IE: not FR) asmodeus is Y
i don't see what the problem is.
Core fluff is slightly different, because there is no pre-4E Asmodeus as an Archdevil non-diety to contradict his new orgin story.
Ares = Mars.
AsmoedusFR != Asmodeus Generic. :D
Use the FR book's description when you're playing in the FR and the MotP's one when you're playing in Points of Light (or an equivalent). Both are accurate in their own context.
How should it be addressed by DMs, do you guys think?
...
honestly each dm will probably have their own interpretation as what they are going to do: use the new stuff or keep (and update with equivalents) the old
How should it be addressed by DMs, do you guys think?
Either as different gods, with the same name, or there independent parts of a single larger entity.
How should it be addressed by DMs, do you guys think?
Well the old way of doing things when you were Planescaping was "Individual settings are wrong if there is a contradiction." No one said that the people of any given cosmology actually got it right.
Of course it could just as easily be set so that FR is right, and the berks in Sigil just listened to one to many demons telling lies. Or the big evil guy is playing everyone and NONE of the stories are true. Or there are actually 2 of them or....
Just grab one and stick with it.
There is no official answer in 4E; every setting and its own cosmology are correct. It's unlikely to be stated as the same beings viewed differently (at least on the whole) because some settings have different foundations; though the Eberron cosmology might end up looking similar to the standard one in its planar concepts, deities simply don't work the same way there as in Points of Light or the FR.
An old episode of Star Trek If I remember correctly called Though a Mirror Darkly is a good reflexion of this concept.
The thing is that they are separate realities. Another reality may have similarities, but one doesn't need to be consistent with another. They only need to be consistent with themselves.
-Right. In 3e, when the "Planescape/Spelljammer concept" was removed for the most part, different settings became their own self-contained places. For example, the Forgotten Realms had a Lolth. Greyhawk also had an Lolth. The Forgotten Realms Lolthwas not the Greyhawk Lolth, and vice-versa.
-Anyway, if you are using the Forgotten Realms setting, information in Forgotten Realms sourcebooks take precidence over information from generic sourcebooks.
Since 4eFR (or 'FR-lite') is supposed to sync-up to core perfectly now, I don't think any discrepencies should be pushed off into the 'setting-specific lore' category like we used to be able to do.
I think we need to fall back on the tried-and-true rule of "newer lore trumps older lore", and be done with it. If the manual of the planes says the war continues, albeit more serepticiously then before, then that should be the right of it. 'Realms Sages' may think Asmodeus was able to end the Bloodwar with the power boost he got from Azuth, but that would just be a conceit of the Realms Sages themselves, thinking so highly of their gods.
The universe doesn't change entirely just because of one Crystal Sphere, however powerful it may be in the cosmic scheme of things. It is far more likely that Asmodeus merely ended the 'main war', but small battles are still being fought in a thousand thousand spheres.
Since Demons and Devils have appaerently ended their contention on Toril itself, the Sages have made some wrong assumptions regarding the rest of the multiverse, is all.
Since 4eFR (or 'FR-lite') is supposed to sync-up to core perfectly now, I don't think any discrepencies should be pushed off into the 'setting-specific lore' category like we used to be able to do.
-The concept that each setting exists in it's own self-contained universe, separate from other settings hasn't been tossed aside. It still technically stands. Niche settings and the 'Core' setting can never fully match up. How would that work in Eberron, for example, when plenty of things differ from the 'Core' presentations?
Since Demons and Devils have appaerently ended their contention on Toril itself, the Sages have made some wrong assumptions regarding the rest of the multiverse, is all.
I would - rather cynical, I know - assume that the Blood War was ended because designers would have to spent time on it to bring it into 4E ... when they have their schedule already filled with "cool" new FR stuff for years to come. And, hand on heart, the Bloodwar is usually just that, a war that happens somewhere behind the scenes with hardly any involvement of the PC. Hence the "Why bother with it at all?" - reasoning.
BTW, Paul S. Kemp gives a good account of Mephistopheles in Shadowstorm. That's how it should be done, IMHO.
That Planescape proclamation was the single biggest thing that caused many players of other settings to develop a dislike of it. (It was also dropped in 3E, when several settings went their own way cosmologically.)
This was actually one of the more curious aspects of Planescape. It basically belittled every single other setting as being "lolwrong" and just silly primes thinking they know more than they do. The planescape interpretation of the planes is still the best I've used though and I much preferred the cosmology being fixed, with the "primes" being horribly wrong about things because it make going between settings (and similar) less of a headache.
I'm not at all sure what a 4E planescape is going to look like, but I am imagining that it isn't going to be pretty.
I'm not at all sure what a 4E planescape is going to look like, but I am imagining that it isn't going to be pretty.
-Things concerning the actual Planes themselves will be very different. Other than that, though...Things concerning Sigil, the people living there, the balance of power and such, that will probably be the same, or very similar. Unless the designers feel like changing things for the sake of changing things.
-The concept that each setting exists in it's own self-contained universe, separate from other settings hasn't been tossed aside. It still technically stands. Niche settings and the 'Core' setting can never fully match up. How would that work in Eberron, for example, when plenty of things differ from the 'Core' presentations?
If you went to the Eberron forums (as I do, sometimes), you'd note that they are already pi$$ing and moaning about "the 4e Cosmology changes"...
Which have been announced. ;)
ALL settings must work within the 'core structure', and although they may have their own idiosyncrisies, the Cosmology is one of the 'big things' that the designers need to keep all the same, throughout the products.
Else, books like Manual of the Planes, the various Fiend Folios, Lords of Madness, and any books they do on the Feywild and the Shadowfel (and it's only a matter of time) will all have to have tons of wasted space with sidebars that say "In the Realms" or "In Eberron", etc...
They want ALL of the core books to be able to be used AS-IS in all the settings, and the Cosmology is a VERY big part of that - you can't even do Fiends the same way if the cosmology varies from world to world (One of the major problems the Eb people had with those core Fiend books - they had nothing they could use 'off the rack').
Eberron's Cosmology is one of it's bigger selling-points, and the fan-reaction to changing it should be on-par with ours and Mystra/Weave, I would imagine.
I just can't wait for round II - it'll be nice to see Eberron people and Realms people singing "cum by ya" together and holding vigils... :D
They were supposed to get some changes and a minor timejump (5 years?), but the fan-base screamed and cried and Wyatt announced (some time ago) that they will NOT be getting much in the way of setting changes (except what is comletely neccessary to changing the agic in 4e), and the timejump has been scrapped (although I don't see how - they would still need at least a tiny one, say a year, to explain even minor changes).
However, I think that 'giving-in' was a way of placating them until the MAJOR announcement hit - the Cosmology changes! As I said above, this is like what we were handed with the removal of Mystar, her Chosen, and the Weave.
And it has ben announced such changes WILL be made to make Eb 'conform better' to the core rules.
So it has begun on the Eberron forums, much as it did here when we were still guessing about the changes a year and a half ago.
Never thought I'd feel sorry for the Eb-fans... but at least now we have a common cause.
I like Eb's Cosmology (for Eberron), and it's one of the many things that set it apart. However, they want all the 'Planer' Splatbooks to be useable by everyone, so I completely undestand WotC's decision to make these changes (even if I don't agree with them).
From what little I read, it won't be a complete overhaul - it will work much the way it did in FR. Some planes will merge, others will be 'Eberron-specific', but any of the planes that are shared with the multiverse MUST come into line with the core ones.
The real biggie for them will be the Elemental Maelstrom - they had seperate 'worlds' for their elements, and this wil effect them, I think, even more then it did us.
I just can't wait for round II - it'll be nice to see Eberron people and Realms people singing "cum by ya" together and holding vigils... :D
I read vigils as virgins.
One Sourcebook to rule them all, One Sourcebook to find them,
One Sourcebook to bring them all and in the Core Rules bind them.
:P
For someone who enjoys the 4th Edition Realms this is not so bad. Bringing the cosmologies into line allows the Eberron sourcebooks to be useful as well. It is easy to say that the planes that they share in common float between parallel universes, and that traveling on those planes allows you to visit those other universes. Thus, you could have an Eberron character travel through the Feywild / Elemental Chaos / Shadowfell to get into the Realms and vise versa.
I think we need to fall back on the tried-and-true rule of "newer lore trumps older lore", and be done with it. If the manual of the planes says the war continues, albeit more serepticiously then before, then that should be the right of it. 'Realms Sages' may think Asmodeus was able to end the Bloodwar with the power boost he got from Azuth, but that would just be a conceit of the Realms Sages themselves, thinking so highly of their gods.
I don't think the published material so far supports this theory at all. Sure, the core framework of the cosmology is the same, but each setting differs in the details. This is explained in the MotP. The FRCG details the ways in which the FR cosmology differs from the default cosmology.
Else, books like Manual of the Planes, the various Fiend Folios, Lords of Madness, and any books they do on the Feywild and the Shadowfel (and it's only a matter of time) will all have to have tons of wasted space with sidebars that say "In the Realms" or "In Eberron", etc...
Again, the published books don't support this idea. Differences clearly exist between settings and core, and no sidebars are given in the MotP to explain this. That's what the setting books are for.
I suppose it could be a question of continuity for people whose campaigns go back and forth between worlds with different cosmologies.
How should it be addressed by DMs, do you guys think?
In my campaign, the whole multiverse switched from the Great Wheel to the World Axis because of the 4e FR events. I'm keeping more of the Great Wheel than the MotP does, though, and assuming that the World Tree was just one of those clueless prime misconceptions.
-Things concerning the actual Planes themselves will be very different. Other than that, though...Things concerning Sigil, the people living there, the balance of power and such, that will probably be the same, or very similar. Unless the designers feel like changing things for the sake of changing things.
Do you think in the end it will matter that much if it does change?
-The concept that each setting exists in it's own self-contained universe, separate from other settings hasn't been tossed aside. It still technically stands. Niche settings and the 'Core' setting can never fully match up. How would that work in Eberron, for example, when plenty of things differ from the 'Core' presentations?
I agree. I think campaigns should be treated as self-contained but 4E also let's the DM tie the wolrds together if they wish it. If EB names it's Shadowfell Mabar but still drops the name Shadowfell in the description it can help tie the other core supplements with the EB supplements or articles.
On a side note gamers love to **** and moan about any little thing. I do mean little because in the we the players and DMs are in total control of the world and game. OMG shocker! We are in charge?!?! Yep. The core books and campaign supplements are strictly tools and guides that help us play the game. We determine what is in that game though. Remember we hvae it better than comic and movie fans.
All of this is my opinion of course (even though it is all true, heh).
On a side note gamers love to **** and moan about any little thing. I do mean little because in the we the players and DMs are in total control of the world and game. OMG shocker! We are in charge?!?! Yep. The core books and campaign supplements are strictly tools and guides that help us play the game. We determine what is in that game though. Remember we hvae it better than comic and movie fans.
Dungeons & Dragon: The Movie (and it's sequel).
Huh... I just heard thousands of gamers cry out in pain and misery as soon as I hit the submit button.
I'm not sure why Eberron fans would be shocked or surprised. Almost right from the beginning when 4th Edition was announced it was clear that these were their intentions for all published settings.
One Sourcebook to rule them all, One Sourcebook to find them,
One Sourcebook to bring them all and in the Core Rules bind them.
:P
-Like I said, I'm not that familiar with Eberron, but Eberron had a very unique cosmology, and a cosmology that, as it was, was very important in explaining why things in the setting were a certain way. Changing things is likely to create a "Narbondel Moment" (I think I should coin that term): A thing in the lore of the setting that, with rule changes, doesn't make much sense anymore.
Do you think in the end it will matter that much if it does change?
-Depends on how much is changed. If, for example, Sigil is changed into a democracy ruled by Yetis who worship Shar, well, then yes, that's a pretty big departure from what Sigil was.
-Depends on how much is changed. If, for example, Sigil is changed into a democracy ruled by Yetis who worship Shar, well, then yes, that's a pretty big departure from what Sigil was.
But you need to justify that with context -
If your group never, EVER travels to Sigil, did it make any difference at all?
Most Eberron games, just like most FR games, never leave the planet. The cosmology is just something folks talk about. In FR, it made no difference to me at all if I used the Tree or the Wheel, because my players were NEVER going there.
HOWEVER - some of the 'native' races are tied directly to their cosmology - they migrated from those 'worlds' which work as Eb's planes. Changing the Cosmology there may indeed have a MUCH worse effect on them then it did on us (definately one of those 'Narbondel moments').
I certainly can't see them doing a "it was always that way" explanation, and using FR's Spellplague to explain the Cosmology changes seems a bit... silly.
Which is still a huge problem, as far as I'm concerned - how are they going to explain the Cosmology changes across the board in all the worlds? I would think that every friggin' planet in the universe would declare war on Toril for screwing things up so bad.
Hmmmm... I don't think they'll ever be able to connect all the worlds together again like they did under 2e - technically Szass Tam should have been sucked into Ravenloft just as soon as he cast that ritual. If Vecna couldn't resist the pull, how the hell could Tammy Thay?
But you need to justify that with context -
If your group never, EVER travels to Sigil, did it make any difference at all?
-The question was, would it matter much in Sigil to people in Sigil if certain things were changed in Sigil.
Well, to put it another way, NO change really effects your game in any discernable way unless you travel to a place that has been changed, even if its on the same continent.
In my case, I already have established certain things as 'fact', which the new Empire of Netheril interferes with, ergo I am having 'contradiction' problems.
If my entire campaign took place within Cormyr, then very little would be effected, aside from, perhaps, a bit more militaristic bent (they probably have gone to conscription at this point).
I'm trying to come up with another example of a place that wasn't changed much... but I can't think of one.
Osse?
