Like magic, the descendants, if any liches were long lived or still exist.
I know that GHotR said what they were, but I was never really able to get a clear picture myself.
Sarrukh (Reptilian Creator Race)
Batrachi (Amphibiant Creator Race)
Aeiree (Sp?) (Avian Creator Race)
Fey (Perhaps the LeShay)
-Others include Humans on the list of the Creator Races, while others don't. Some include Dragons on the list, while others don't.
My take? The stuff I'm working on for the Kara-Tur project links each race to an Element, and in Oriental philosophy there are FIVE, although once again there is some disagreement about the 5th element. The Shou call it 'Metal', which on a meta-physical level means it is derived from the others (which it is), and the Zakharans refer to it as 'Wood', which revolves around its life-giving qualities. The 5th element is just that - a combination of the other four, neccessary for life to exist, so I simply dub it 'spirit'.
Now, we can come up with a list like this -
Aearee - Air
Batrachi - water
Fey - Earth (their natural attachment to the 'earth')
Sarrukh - Fire (maybe a stretch, but when I think of Dinosaurs, a picture a world of volcanos)
Humans - Life, or 'Spirit' - this is why mankind is considered the 'Race of Destiny'
Dragons are connected to all the elements, much like man, but I think they are an artificial creation by some god(s) to override the natural order of things. At some point, I figure the Draconic Gods wanted the fifth and final race to fall under their sway, so they created the Dragons to rules the elements, rather then be a part of them (as man is). Unfortunely, this 'meddling' did not work, and even though they insist they are the fifth Creator race, they are actually constructs of the Draconic Gods and therefore cannot be one of the 'natural five'.
-Depending on who you ask, there list of the Creator Races differs. Generally, the agreed list contains:
Sarrukh (Reptilian Creator Race)
Batrachi (Amphibiant Creator Race)
Aeiree (Sp?) (Avian Creator Race)
Fey (Perhaps the LeShay)
-Others include Humans on the list of the Creator Races, while others don't. Some include Dragons on the list, while others don't.
Humans are considered a Creator Race. They're listed as among the five Creator Races on pg. 55 in Serpent Kingdoms.
... The most pathetic creator race at the time
-Who, Humans? Note that they are the only ones still around, in any real and meaningful fashion. ;)
-Who, Humans? Note that they are the only ones still around, in any real and meaningful fashion. ;)
And they've basically conquered the world.
And they've basically conquered the world.
-Partially though their own efforts, and partially because other races "let them". That said, remember who the only mortal to achieve godhood via "forcing the issue" was, Zsych? Hi.
That list only pertains to the Creator Races of This Age, and there may have been and in-between list during the 'second age' that included Dragons, Giants, Elves, and Dwarves, and ?
Its very subjective, depending on what race you ask, and WHEN you ask. ;)
HA!
-Exactly.
Plus the whole concept of 'Creator races' is based on information we have from cureent sources (like the Elves).
-3e sources that list the Creator Races, such as Serpent Kingdoms, are objective, not subjective, being omniscient and all.
If all these races were created by their gods at some indeterminate time and they all came into their own within a supposed known time, did the Aboleths rule over the proto-creator races? Or what was around on Toril (Feaerun) originally?
So if Aboleths were supposed to rule the world when it was young, what/who did they rule over?
-We don't know. The only bit of lore that we have on this (This was an element that was recently introduced, and clashes with a lot of other established information) is that, long, long ago, Abberations from 'Abeir' came to 'Toril', somehow "linking" the two planets/planes/whatever, and began colonizing it. The Abberations were later "cast away" by some ancient, lost deities, and 'Abeir' was sent packing, it no longer "linked" to 'Toril'.
If all these races were created by their gods at some indeterminate time and they all came into their own within a supposed known time, did the Aboleths rule over the proto-creator races?
-We don't know the concrete facts surrounding the creation of the Creator Races. That said, the new lore in Stardeep suggests that the Abberations ruled over the linked 'Abeir'-'Toril' long, long ago, much before the Creator Races arose.
Or what was around on Toril (Feaerun) originally?
-We don't know.
Or what was around on Toril (Feaerun) originally?
As Lord Karsus said, we don't know, but I would assume the oozes and slimes that originally worshipped Ghaunadaur and who he stripped of their intelligence were around, at least.
Unless they wanted to come to Toril and 'lord it over' some protozoa and lichen, but they must have had some serious self-esteem issues to do that. :P
Like I said, they probably ruled a kingdom of Illithids and Beholders and other ugly things. maybe they also ruled the Delkyr (sp?) from Eberron, although in that setting the Delkyr are the 'Creator Race' that spawned all of the Aberrations.
Or perhaps other Aberrations, which is weird, because they needn't have left Abeir to do that.
-I'm still trying to figure out what 'Abeir' is, to begin with. A mobile Plane, like Neth? A Demiplane, like Ravenloft? Another planet? A Moon? It might be a moon, because of Ed's cryptic remarks about 'Abeir' in 2005/6.
Its completely black and therefore invisible against the backdrop of space (unless you know where to look).
It would make some sense, but only because Selûne is her opposite.
Which reminds me of something...didn't the Sarrukh create the Nether Scrolls?
-Yes. That whole shpiel can be found in Serpent Kingdoms. Personally, I don't like it. I'd rather the Nether Scrolls be of 'unknown origin'. As 3e has done time and time again, not everything needs an explanation. Some things are better left unsaid.
They even had time travel magic which wasn't possible ryt now...I even thought that their magic was different from the Weave or Anti-weave since Mystryl wasn't their goddess.
I think there are many unknown Sarrukh wizards in Faerun still lingering in the caverns ryt now...who knows they could be very powerful and mysterious but doesn't mind themselves in taking over Faerun...mebbe their epic mages went to other worlds besides Abeir Toril for conquering or power (which I think was one of the big reasons why the Sarrukh civilization disappeared.)...Take Larloch for example, he's not that interested in the realms. Instead he's more interested in finding portals and other gates to other worlds.
Mebbe only level 40's beyond (Elminster isn't one of them) could understand how they feel...
Those are all speculations tho'
Maybe we should give another term for 40 above besides epic.
Yeah which means the Sarrukh the most powerful of all creator races.
-Not necessarily the most powerful, but they are the only Creator Race, asides for Humans, that exist in a (somewhat) meaningful way.
I even thought that their magic was different from the Weave or Anti-weave since Mystryl wasn't their goddess.
-Regardless of whether or not you worship, or even know of Mystra, any magic cast in Realmspace utilizes either the Weave, or the Shadow Weave.
Which reminds me of something...didn't the Sarrukh create the Nether Scrolls?
some parts of it, B'aetith, the organization that compiled the arcane lore, had other races as members (Batrachi ...)
They, instead, helped with the Imaskarkana. ;)
Anyhow, since theose scrolls were being compiled for all three races, I have surmised that their is most likely a missing 'third set' (one for each group). I posted my homebrew musings awhile back at CK, but I'll repost them here in case anyone was interested -
Show
"In the final days of the Sarrukh, they gathered together their greatest scholars and tried to come up with some plan to save their species. They met with representatives of the Batrachi and the Aearee, races that were also threatened by extinction. The three pondered their dilema, and came up with a final solution. Their peoples would abandon Abeir-Toril for other 'timeless' planes, until such a time when these new races fell by the wayside and the Creators could return and rule once more. To this end they gathered their greatest scholars, led by the Terraseer, and created a hidden sanctuary away from prying eyes, there to work on a collection of the most powerful magical lore ever seen. These Sages became known as the Ba'etith.
The remainder of these races then left - The Aearee finding comfort in the open spaces of the Astral, the Sarruhk enjoying the misty darkness of the Ethereal, and the Batrachi were left with settling Limbo. There, these races could hide away in the timeless emptines of those planes, awaiting the call to return. In the interrum, the Terraseer organized the scholars of the three races into research groups, and began work on the collection of Lore that would later become known as the Nether scrolls. There were to be three sets, one for each race - a gold for the Sarruhk, a Silver for the Aearee, and a copper set for the Batrachi. As the sets neared completion, the Batrachi scholars realized that the Sarruhk never intended the other two races to recieve their copies and allow their races to return, and so they fled far to the East and away from the plotting Sarruhk. The Sarruhk, for their part, became enraged, and killed the remaining Aearee sages. And so it was, but none of the races realized that their long lost people had evolved into other forms, and were no longer awaiting the call to return..."
The remainder of these races then left - The Aearee finding comfort in the open spaces of the Astral, the Sarruhk enjoying the misty darkness of the Ethereal, and the Batrachi were left with settling Limbo. There, these races could hide away in the timeless emptines of those planes, awaiting the call to return. In the interrum, the Terraseer organized the scholars of the three races into research groups, and began work on the collection of Lore that would later become known as the Nether scrolls. There were to be three sets, one for each race - a gold for the Sarruhk, a Silver for the Aearee, and a copper set for the Batrachi. As the sets neared completion, the Batrachi scholars realized that the Sarruhk never intended the other two races to recieve their copies and allow their races to return, and so they fled far to the East and away from the plotting Sarruhk. The Sarruhk, for their part, became enraged, and killed the remaining Aearee sages. And so it was, but none of the races realized that their long lost people had evolved into other forms, and were no longer awaiting the call to return..."
-Yes. That whole shpiel can be found in Serpent Kingdoms. Personally, I don't like it. I'd rather the Nether Scrolls be of 'unknown origin'. As 3e has done time and time again, not everything needs an explanation. Some things are better left unsaid.
Actually LK, this was revealed in REF5 Lords of Darkness, a 1st-Edition game accessory, and penned by Paul Jaquays (the creator of the creator races).
Ouch.
*Attempts to gain favour by high-fiving iakhovas*
I agree with the spirit of LK's post, though--keep in some mystery.
I suspect you'd have a difficult time finding a consensus as to which mysteries should be solved and which should remain an enigma. It's really an impossible situation to be in as a designer. You're bound to disappoint someone.
I agree. There's keeping an air of mystery and being obtuse, and often people disagree as to where the line is. Also, if one mystery is solved, but another pops up, the Conservation of Mystery constant is kept. *LOL*
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I don't mind that the Sarrukh were behind (at least, in part) the Nether Scrolls, because there is still enough holes in the story for me to fill in (as I did above).
In fact, I usually like whatever they come up with for the major suff - its the 'little mysteries' I don't want them to solve, like what happened to a sunken ship, or where a certain magic item is today, or what became of someone who disappeared. Those are the 'little touches' that Ed (and others, like Schend) used to pepper throughout the Realms, and each and every page was golden.
Who dropped Netheril on its head? Halaster's a what? Those are things I can easily live with (and change if I want), just don't touch my 'current clack' and I'll be happy.
BTW Brian, nice drop kick to LK off that pedestal. :D
We all need that once in awhile... even me. ;)
Actually LK, this was revealed in REF5 Lords of Darkness, a 1st-Edition game accessory, and penned by Paul Jaquays (the creator of the creator races).
-Either way, the spirit of the post still stands. Various mysteries are better off left mysteries, and Third-Edition has shed illumination multiple mysteries that have been unsolved in the setting beforehand.
BTW Brian, nice drop kick to LK off that pedestal. :D
We all need that once in awhile... even me. ;)
-I was dropkicked? On a pedestal, none the less? Riiight...
I suspect you'd have a difficult time finding a consensus as to which mysteries should be solved and which should remain an enigma. It's really an impossible situation to be in as a designer. You're bound to disappoint someone.
Well, yeah, that's true too. Everyone has their own preferences.
BTW Brian, nice drop kick to LK off that pedestal. :D
We all need that once in awhile... even me. ;)
But he's a god.
You can't drop kick a god.
But he's a god.
You can't drop kick a god.
-To paraphrase one of my favorite lines from Revenge of the Sith, "You can try..."