Then one day I was expressing my concerns to a friend. He asked me to describe then changes, then countered with; "It almost sounds like 'Crisis on Infinite Earths'."
"It's NOTHING like 'Crisis'", said I, "DC comics HAD to do the whole 'Crisis' thing because they had years upon years of confusing continuity to sort through that was--"
Hearing myself, I stopped and laughed. The exact issue which plagued DC Comics in the early 80s was plaguing the Forgotten Realms now, and would have only grown worse if 4th edition had to convert itself to the setting.
For those who don't know, Crisis on Infinite Earths was a storyline used by DC Comics years ago in which they basically hit the reset button on the whole universe. This was a time when Superman had powers like hypnotism and super-kisses (not even joking), and different stories were starting to take place on one of three different Earths, which was pretty damn confusing. So the "Crisis" storyline tidied everything back up.
That's whats happening in the Realms now. Embrace it; looks to me like the world will start to make a lot more sense.
2. Ed is not happy about the changes and I am not sure what makes you think he doesn't disapprove
The exact issue which plagued DC Comics in the early 80s was plaguing the Forgotten Realms now, and would have only grown worse if 4th edition had to convert itself to the setting.
I do not agree. Maybe the only problem that the Realms had is that its search for new plots touched too much cosmic aspects, and I'm not referring to anything that was because its preparation to 4E such as Lady Penitent or the Spellplague. I mean, how it is possible the Time of Troubles, the War of the Spider Queen, the Return of the Archwizards in less than twenty years? That was the only thing I think wasn't good.
But do not compare the Realms to the Infinite Earths of DC. The Realms only was a bit realistic in that it covered a continent and the plots it had inside, nothing more. The Realms didn't have Drizzt from Toril-1 and Toril-2, for example, or there wasn't a a reunion of four Elminsters that found how to travel between the worlds!
I think the main error of 4E is: How it can be that a new system does not work for a fantasy world? And even one that they were working in? For a game intended to create your own setting, I find that a bit... limited.
Final Final Crisis? Which edition will cause that?
Okay, so will 5th lead to Infinite Crisis? Will 6th lead to Final Crisis? How about
Final Final Crisis? Which edition will cause that?
-See THIS thread.
But I don't see the continuity problems, and people like George Krashos and others were constantly 'filling in the holes' to keep everything on track when some author/designer didn't bother to do his homework.
With George out of the loop, the Realms are doomed.
Bel
Not so much Crisis as the Amalgam of Marvel and DC.
NOTHING could be that much of a Crisis! lol I saw some of those books at a comic shop fairly recently and they inflicted significant physical pain to even look at... yet like a trainwreck I couldn't look away (I think "Bruce Wayne: Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D." had to be my favorite).
Anyway to respond to the individual who pointed out that Mr. Greenwood is not happy about the new changes, I may have been misinformed but someone on the boards told me that he was tired of people calling WotC an evil empire and that we should wait to see where the Realms are going before we make any judgements. He/she may have been wrong, and if that's the case then I've been corrected for the second time on the same issue, making me some kind of unstoppable super-genius (time to don some tights!).
As to the insinuation that the Realms weren't bogged down by as much crazy continuity as I made it seem, you folks may be quite right. But still, can anyone argue that Toril ISN'T an insanely huge, confusing place? I mean, the world literally exists so that every new monster, race, and class they come up with can all be shoved into one omni-setting. Consider that the Realms have been the official D&D world since the late 80s and you'll see that at some point they had to start shoveling crap on top of crap.
Now, I'm not saying that everything they shoveled was the stinky, bacteria-laden kind of crap. I'm just saying that the world became so full of material that it was beggining to implode on itself, that too much of a good thing inherently becomes a bad thing. A clean-up of SOME kind was called for. No, the continuity mess wasn't nearly as bad as the one DC comics had to fix, but it was still there. At the very least, the Realms have always been a more intimidating place for newbies than a lot of other worlds out there, such as Krynn or Ivalice (before you say anything, I see all fantasy worlds under the same looking glass no matter what form of media they're popularized by).
Even other intimidating worlds such as Middle-Earth or the Star Wars galaxy are more concise; in both examples, I can easily show a newbie an engaging place to start without thinking too hard about it. Unfortunately, the most popular (and arguably the best) books in the Forgotten Realms line barely touch upon what the world is all about. I mean, no offense to Drizzt n' friends, but the good ranger hardly ever involves himself in Realms-shattering events, and reading his novels won't tell you much about the history or even geography of Toril.
As for the comment someone left about 4e being fundamentaly limited because it was unable to conform to a given fantasy world... well, I can't fully disagree with that. However, I will say this; every fantasy setting operates under its own individual rules, and there can be no all-encompassing system to cover them all. For example, if I wanted to run a Shannara-based D&D campaign, I'd probably need to design a new Druid class with arcane powers instead of primal, wouldn't I?
Maybe it would have been better for 4e to conform to the Realms instead of the other way around, but unfortunately at this point that's merely speculation. All we can do is wait and see. Personally, I haven't had this much fun gaming in years, and if that means the Realms have to change to fit with the times then so be it.
After all, it can't be any worse than what happened to Krynn after "Dragons of Summer Flame"... can it...???
...oh no, memories of "afflicted" kenders are starting to surface...
...oh dear, sweet, loving Goddess don't anything THAT horrible happen to the Realms...!
There are some novels which the main characters have very tragic endings in the Realms like: "Crusades", "Death of the Dragon", "Blackstaff", "Trial of Cyric the Mad"....Some of them has even many injustices.
Anyway to respond to the individual who pointed out that Mr. Greenwood is not happy about the new changes, I may have been misinformed but someone on the boards told me that he was tired of people calling WotC an evil empire and that we should wait to see where the Realms are going before we make any judgements. He/she may have been wrong, and if that's the case then I've been corrected for the second time on the same issue, making me some kind of unstoppable super-genius (time to don some tights!).
-He did indeed say as much. What kind of employee criticizes his/her employers like that, though? Not an employee I'd want to keep in my employ, I can say that much. When read in between the lines, however, you get a much different impression of what he seems to think. "Not in MY Realms", for instance, is quite noteworthy, and telling.
As to the insinuation that the Realms weren't bogged down by as much crazy continuity as I made it seem, you folks may be quite right. But still, can anyone argue that Toril ISN'T an insanely huge, confusing place?
-I can. Confusing entails 'ham-handedness', and 'perplexing'. The Forgotten Realms are complex, which entails something wholly different: 'intricacy'.
I mean, the world literally exists so that every new monster, race, and class they come up with can all be shoved into one omni-setting. Consider that the Realms have been the official D&D world since the late 80s and you'll see that at some point they had to start shoveling crap on top of crap.
-Incorrect. Plenty of races, classes, spells, prestige classes, monsters, and so on do not exist in the Forgotten Realms. They only exist, officially, when introduced into the setting in a canon Forgotten Realms supplement.
I'm just saying that the world became so full of material that it was beggining to implode on itself, that too much of a good thing inherently becomes a bad thing. A clean-up of SOME kind was called for.
-This notion is inherently flawed. If this were the case, and it was so bad, WotC would have addressed the "problem" when it first gained control of the setting, at the advent of 3e.
At the very least, the Realms have always been a more intimidating place for newbies than a lot of other worlds out there, such as Krynn or Ivalice (before you say anything, I see all fantasy worlds under the same looking glass no matter what form of media they're popularized by).
-I first became interested in this setting circa 2002-2003. 75%+ of the sourcebooks and novels that exist now were already published at this point. Never once did I find the setting intimidating, to the point that it drove me away, or made me think twice, or anything to that effect. I am hardly an isolated case, as the setting continues to garner interest and fans.
...can easily show a newbie an engaging place to start without thinking too hard about it.
-So, too, can you in the Forgotten Realms. That said, where would you point someone to begin a Star Wars campaign?
Unfortunately, the most popular (and arguably the best) books in the Forgotten Realms line barely touch upon what the world is all about. I mean, no offense to Drizzt n' friends, but the good ranger hardly ever involves himself in Realms-shattering events, and reading his novels won't tell you much about the history or even geography of Toril.
-How is this a problem? Not everyone is a "mover and shaker" in the world. Drizzt is not one of them.
4e is just like life....In the Realms, good doesn't always win...Makes things more realistic.
There are some novels which the main characters have very tragic endings in the Realms like: "Crusades", "Death of the Dragon", "Blackstaff", "Trial of Cyric the Mad"....Some of them has even many injustices.
-Right...But, this has to do with...?
4e is just like life....In the Realms, good doesn't always win...Makes things more realistic.
And that was the case in previous editions. You proved that yourself, as all the novels you listed weren't 4E novels.
NOTHING could be that much of a Crisis! lol I saw some of those books at a comic shop fairly recently and they inflicted significant physical pain to even look at... yet like a trainwreck I couldn't look away (I think "Bruce Wayne: Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D." had to be my favorite).
Being both a fan of DC (60-70's) and Marvel (80-90's), I think the Amalagam comics are the best! They were like a dream come true for me. Without them, we would have never had this wonderful scene -
I posted in some other thread yesterday a rather long-wided explanation of why (I think) people fell in love with the Realms in the first place, and it had to do with the more 'realistic' storylines - more often then not, you were fighting evil humans. Killing monsters is fun, but killing RW 'monsters' gives you a sense of accomplishment.[/IMG]
-Copy and paste, my friend. ;)
Where can I find this blog/message board/whatever? It sounds interesting, because Ed Greenwood is a badass of genius proportions. Literally; I think he was one of them child prodigies or something. Ever hear the story of how he created the Realms (probably, I'm sure)? It happened long before the advent of D&D!
-I can. Confusing entails 'ham-handedness', and 'perplexing'. The Forgotten Realms are complex, which entails something wholly different: 'intricacy'.
Good use of adjectives, and once again I don't fully disagree with you at all. Complexity is a good thing when it comes to fantasy settings. However, I will say this; I got into the Realms around the same time you did (well, I've been reading Drizzt books for a little longer, but be that as it may), and I have to say if not for the 3e Campaign Guide I'd be a little confused. Many Forgotten Realms novels I've read assume to a certain degree that the reader already has a working knowledge of Realms-lore. Luckily I do, but not everyone does.
-Incorrect. Plenty of races, classes, spells, prestige classes, monsters, and so on do not exist in the Forgotten Realms. They only exist, officially, when introduced into the setting in a canon Forgotten Realms supplement.
This is true. Also as a DM I'm free to take-or-leave whatever I so please. However, I count no less than 11 elven subraces running around the setting in question. I'm sorry, but in my book that's just too many.
-This notion is inherently flawed. If this were the case, and it was so bad, WotC would have addressed the "problem" when it first gained control of the setting, at the advent of 3e.
Possibly, but then they might not have wanted to tick people off at the time. Fans were still freaking out over 2e being left behind and TSR no longer publishing their favorite game.
But then again, 3e was also designed to fit in with the Realms from the very beggining. As I previously stated, perhaps this was a better idea than the current stance of changing the Realms to fit in with the new edition. Only time will tell.
-I first became interested in this setting circa 2002-2003. 75%+ of the sourcebooks and novels that exist now were already published at this point. Never once did I find the setting intimidating, to the point that it drove me away, or made me think twice, or anything to that effect. I am hardly an isolated case, as the setting continues to garner interest and fans.
Don't get me wrong! I LOVE the Realms! I'm a fan as much as you are (well, almost, evidently)! However the fact that the D&D MMO is based on Eberron shows that they wanted a more concise, less jam-packed setting. Personally, I STILL think the MMO should have been based on the Realms, its a FAR more classic and traditional setting, but if they pulled it off CORRECTLY that game would be the most massive game of all time... would have been nice, but at some point you have to take your head out of the clouds.
-So, too, can you in the Forgotten Realms. That said, where would you point someone to begin a Star Wars campaign?
Here's where I disagree completely. First of all, I was talking about each world in the context of how entertaining they are, no matter what form of media they entertain with at any given moment. You seem to imply that we're talking solely about gaming, which technically we should be, but when novels and whatnot got brought up the conversation shifted to general storytelling, not just gaming.
That said, if I wanted to introduce someone to the Star Wars galaxy, there are six feature-length films currently available for viewing.
If I wanted to introduce somebody to Lord of the Rings, I'd direct them to Tolkien's classic book quintet (or, if they had too short of an attention span, the now-classic film trilogy).
When it comes to books based on a D&D setting, it becomes even more confusing to newbies. I've met people who were unimpressed with what Dragonlance novels they had read, only to discover that they hadn't read the original trilogy! In the case of the Realms, there is no "original trilogy", and that was the point I was trying to make.
You may know several good starting points. If you do, let me know! I'd like to introduce people to Realms -- the OLD Realms -- myself!
-How is this a problem? Not everyone is a "mover and shaker" in the world. Drizzt is not one of them.
The fact that Drizzt Do'Urden isn't a "mover and shaker" is absolutely, positively, beyond any shadow of a doubt NOT a problem! One of his most charming qualities remains that while he very well may be the greatest swordsman in the world, he generally keeps to himself. I LOVE Drizzt; his essays and general attitude towards life taught me a lot about myself when I was a young(er) man. Moreso than any other fictional character I can think of, Drizzt is "alive" to me.
All I was saying was that the premier series of Forgotten Realms books are vastly different than the core Star Wars, LotR, or Dragonlance trilogies in that the Drizzt series serves as no introduction to the setting. Personally, I'd very much like it if there were an FR "Core Trilogy" out there that I could recommend just as much as the Drizzt series to a casual reader (hardcore fans like us aren't the only fans, after all).
And that's that!
Whew! At the very least, I'm glad my thread generated enough interesting conversation to get me through lunch breaks and bouts with insomnia. I already enjoy this community immensely, even if some of the 4e nay-sayers are a little rude at times. Keep rolling dice guys!
-
That was a great series
Being both a fan of DC (60-70's) and Marvel (80-90's), I think the Amalagam comics are the best! They were like a dream come true for me. Without them, we would have never had this wonderful scene
Isn't that from some other crossover? If I remember right, the Amalgam ones were the ones that gave us crap like Iron Lantern and so on.
The X-men vs the Teen Titans was one of my old-time favorites. Spiderman vs Superman (OLD school) was pretty good, but Batman vs The Hulk was lame as hell. Those are ANCIENT cross-overs, before the two companies realized all the money to be made fulfilling all of our childhood wishes.
Robin and Jubilee falling in love was a great sub-plot in two different series as well. Talk about your star-crossed love affairs.
I also loved when Superman had to snap the Hulk's neck to beat him - otherwise he would have eventually become stronger then Superman.
Crossovers are COOL.
Hey man, if you liked Amalgam, more power to ya! Personally, I think that MOST (certainly not all) super-hero comics that came out of the 90s were over-hyped garbage (Spidey's Clone Saga, anyone? How about Superman Blue/Red?). I've actually read many of the Amalgam titles, and they were... well, not good in my opinion.
That said, "JLA/Avengers" felt like being with a woman for the first time... utterly mind-blowing! As a matter of fact, my brother and I have dinner with George Perez every year after a particular local convention (our grandfather worked for DC comics, so we know certain people), and every time I see him I remind him that "JLA/Avengers" was his best work.
Erm... not that "Crisis of Infinite Earths" wasn't crazy-amazing too. lol on that note, allow me to get everyone back on track by saying the following;
The Spellplague reminds me of "Crisis on Infinite Earths!" All we need is George Perez to draw Cyric killing Mystra!
There I said it. Now back to the original conversation, lol!!!
Where can I find this blog/message board/whatever? It sounds interesting, because Ed Greenwood is a badass of genius proportions.
-Here is his post, in it's entirety:
Show
Hello, all. I continue to receive e-mails, phone calls, snail mail letters, and in-person queries, beefs, and pleas for reassurance from longtime Realms fans - - and continue to be humbled by the depth of your feeling for the Realms. Thank you, everyone.
Though I am frantically busy trying to get things done before flying off to Australia (during which trip I will almost certainly fall e-silent, BTW) I will try to respond to scribes who have posted in this thread, as I come to your posts in the e-mails THO forwards me.
Red Walker, you’re welcome, thanks for the love, and you are very, very right to say: “Fear of change is natural, and greater fear of Big changes is too!”
The reactions of Realms fans were expected for this very reason. Of COURSE everyone will be upset, or at least anxious, in some way, whether eager for change or hating its possible/probable consequences. Wooly Rupert and others are correct to say we haven’t seen enough yet to really judge the so-called “new” Realms, and I agree.
None of which doesn’t make opinions on it, based on the little we have seen, perfectly valid. Zandilar isn’t the only one to decide that the changes she’s heard about thus far seem “so... well... dumb, to put it bluntly.”
Please, please, all of you: respect each other’s opinions. Disagree with them as heatedly as you want, but please bend over backwards not to disrespect each other for holding them. As it happens, the way the “peekaboo” revelations have thus far appeared (I’m guessing so as to foment maximum “buzz” and therefore unpaid publicity), I agree with Zandilar. Those don’t sound like MY gods. :}
However, Chosen of Moradin quite rightly points out that “a timeline is not an explanation of what happens. It's only a summary. And a summary cannot explain clearly anything. The summary of the Fall of Myth Drannor don't explain the Fall of Myth Drannor. So, to see exactly what happened, we will have to wait until the next FRCS.”
Correct. As I’ve always said, mortals in the Realms can never know the “truth” about divine deeds and intentions, only what’s reported to them. By deities, priests, soothsayers, “possessed” madwits, and in dream-visions - - and ALL of those sources can be mistaken or misinterpreted, or can lie and distort or slant to further their own agendas. Yes, even the gods themselves. So what appears in THE GRAND HISTORY OF THE REALMS is what “the loudest reports say” happened, not what every being in the Realms personally saw and therefore “knows” (and agrees) happened.
It should be obvious to everyone by now that there are major changes in magic and the deities underway, and that the Spellplague is part of that. We now know that it begins in the Year of Blue Fire, in a dramatic way, and that part of Bob’s newest novel takes place a hundred years in the future (at a time when almost all human characters alive in the Realms of “today,” if they haven’t found some magical means of prolonging their lifespans - - in a “magic unstable and unreliable” situation - - will have perished of old age).
Which brings us to eiglos, who posts: “My only current played character in the Realms is a Priestess of Lurue. Her future must be uncertain, unless Lurue returns to her original role in the Realms.”
Passing over the obvious points that everyone’s future is always uncertain, and that the particular priestess will almost certainly have died of old age by the time of THE ORC KING anyway, we know that gods can and have been subsumed by other gods, and that “dead” or fallen gods are still worshipped fervently, just as before, because other deities adopt their followers, still grant spells, and so on - - so mortals may or may not know the true fate of the deity they worship. This MIGHT be one future for this specific priestess. Lurue (or any other deity, for that matter) could of course survive “unchanged,” or change in divine power but keep the same looks, portfolios, aims, and credos. Deities tend to shift subtly all the time in these things, however. And IF we are talking a century of time, that’s a lot of roleplaying (in terms of real-world duration). So for now, eiglos, roleplaying “life” for your priestess can be very much “business as usual.”
I personally would welcome the separation of, say, The Living Realms and the “history” RPGA play therein develops, from my own home campaign. If characters played in an RPGA adventure slay a wizard and blow up his tower, and I’m using both wizard and tower extensively in my home campaign, the potential conflict vanishes; the destruction won’t occur until the future (if mage and/or structure “go down” in my campaign, there’s plenty of in-Realms time for the one to be brought back to life somehow and the other rebuilt, to “explain away” the conflict).
A gamer can play in their own current campaign just as before, peek at eventual 4e Realms releases in hobby shops, at conventions, and via online discussion, and either decide never to go to 4e, or (if the new material at some point seems really exciting) “jump” the characters from one Realmsdate to the other by some magical means (even if it’s “caught in a portal for a century,” and I set just such weirdness up with some comments in SWORDS OF DRAGONFIRE that also “start to” explain the 2e to 3e “map changes” in the Realms without being too explicit, for those who didn’t make the change). Or, if a DM and player group collectively decide to move to the “new” Realms, they can even try to arrange cached treasure and PC breeding so as to “set up” descendants of their favourite characters as adventurers in the future Realms.
So, eiglos, your priestess can have a long and rewarding life and career, regardless.
However, this leads to another important point Zandilar raised: “If I run my campaign prior to the Year of Blue Fire, then I don't need the 4e products. Since I don't need them, I don't buy them. Since I don't buy them, WotC doesn't get my money. WotC doesn't get my money, and it is starting to look like a lot of the "old guard" are going down this path... So WotC starts to loose money, and eventually the line will get cut.”
This is indeed the Big Risk in all of this, the “roll of the dice” that I wish someone had never decided to make (because I personally value the ongoing development of a shared and unbroken imaginary Grand History of a fictional fantasy setting as something magnificent in itself, an achievement we should all continue to contribute to).
Yet it’s happening regardless of my personal wants, and I choose to be onboard trying to paddle and steer, rather than left behind swimming in the water, calling out that perhaps we should have set a different course.
Zandilar is perfectly correct to post: “I've never ever had problems with a business wanting to make a profit. That is, after all, the purpose of a business. But what they're doing here is taking a HUGE risk with a known quantity. They're risking the entire Realms product line with this move, and they seem to have gone to great lengths to rub us old guard up the wrong way with the changes they're making. (Just my perception, I'm sure they haven't deliberately set out to slight us.)”
I don’t think anyone at Wizards set out to deliberately upset or slight anyone. I do think it has been decided to make these changes swiftly, and that very “brutal rapidity” is increasing some of the upset along with the “buzz.”
However, there’s no reason at all to move your own campaign if you don’t want to. IF there’s a hundred-year jump, that’s a LOT of time to roleplay through; most FR campaigns I hear about don’t cover more than ten to twelve years in the Realms unless they incorporate “down time” jumps of their own, before they “run down” and the folks involved start anew.
Yes, the Spellplague is going to shift the flavour of the Realms (if wizards are dying or their magic is going wild or failing, and priests are all upset, too, it follows that the “tone” of daily life and therefore of roleplaying will change a bit), but the Realms is a big place, and there’s no reason yet to suspect that “all civilization will fall.” Waterdeep, Silverymoon, Cormyr - - I don’t think a century will sweep any of them away. CHANGE them, yes, but they’re all changing constantly, anyway; we just usually live with the changes as they’re happening rather than seeing a “big jump-cut.” Nor is there any reason, based on what we’ve seen thus far, to believe that the Spellplague is a single big event, over in a short time; the very name implies something of longer duration, with almost certainly (if real-world “plagues” are anything to go by) varying results from place to place and person to person (this city or region largely unaffected, that wizard untouched, this one over here driven mad; that allows DMs plenty of “elbow room” to preserve the “heart locations” of a beloved campaign, and favourite PCs and NPCs, too; it’s “the rest of the Realms” where the BIG changes occur . . . something that a lot of DMs have already been doing for two decades, as they steer their own campaigns around events in the published Realms).
None of which means my arguments should be seen as quelling, denying, or belittling the personal anger and upset longtime Realms fans are feeling over this. Believe me, I know how you feel. :}
Neriandal Freit, your queries don’t come off as offensive, at all (and I’m glad you loved that little scene in EL’S DAUGHTER; one of my favourite moments, out of everything I’ve written). I hear you and I sympathize, deeply. (And yes, I’ll check out “Redeemers of Dawn,” and let you know; somebody please give THO a heads up when the new Compendium is released, okay?)
My answer begins: Although I know the Realms is intended as “a place to play,” and therefore should be something of a haven from the unpleasantnesses of real life, so we can hold on to elements in it we love and hold most precious, even in the Realms everything changes. I hate changing anything in the published Realms before I finish the (admittedly endless) task of detailing every corner of it (we still aren’t really off the first continent, are we?), but the alternative is static boredom . . . dust settling on statues in silence.
Everything changes; eventually, everyone (even deities, as they are conceived of in the Realms, with power tied to worshippers) dies. So with that said, my "answer direct" to you becomes another question: In real life, and in the Realms, do you NOT fall in love with someone, or befriend them, or work with them on something that interests you both and that you can both be proud of, because someday both of you will die?
I don’t think so. Despite yourself, even if you know we’re all rushing to oblivion, you do it anyway. In the end, that’s what “living” is all about.
We know we’re all doomed (as the song goes: “We’re here for a good time/Not a long time”), but we go ahead and love, laugh, climb mountains, read books, and fall in love with the Realms anyway. At least I did. :}
If it helps you decide, I intend to go on exploring the Realms, bringing us all more detail. Some of it in the “now” Realms, and some of it in the “new” Realms.
I strongly suspect the published Realms will shortly become “new Realms only” in terms of the time-setting of products - - and that many fans may step back from that new Realms. That’s an individual choice I certainly don’t want to try to (further than by setting forth my views here) influence for everyone. It’s going to have to be your call.
I hope you’ll join with Xysma and others in “clinging to the merest sliver of hope that Ed, Eric, and the rest can salvage what at first glance is going to be a nightmare for those of us who love the Realms so dearly,” and therefore at least give the new Realms a look.
I’m going to go right on exploring the Realms, and if that means finding some way to paint in bits of the “Lost Years” in the time-jump, I’ll try to find some way to do that. We MIGHT end up with a Realms of the novels that’s far “ahead in time” of where you or other gamers might be roleplaying, and therefore not conflicting much with your unfolding play. Lovely smell over here, steak sizzling over there, so to speak.
I KNOW it hurts when you’ve come to love and cherish a fictional place and characters, that you can enjoy in your imagination, and someone goes and stomps on what you hold precious. Yet what lies your imagination can be only be hurt if you let it be.
In the Realms, this has all happened before; the Mystra you loved that scene about is Mystra Number 2 (Number 3 if you count Mystryl). The Realms you love grew out of previous planet-shaking debacles. and you may come to like the post-Spellplague Realms.
Or not. I understand and respect both your love for the Realms, and that you feel the way you do right now.
Kuje expressed his dismay early on in this, and many other scribes have cried out between him and you; I understand and sympathize with all of your misgivings and raw emotions. I went through the same thing at a secret summit meeting at GenCon some years ago; believe me, heavy-hitter novelists and game designers who love the Realms have argued about this “change” over and over heatedly.
There’s always a strong streak in gamers and game designers of what I said onstage at the Killer Breakfast this year, when Tracy asked me what my character was going to do, and I replied: “Being a game designer, I go for the bright shiny object.” We always feel the lure of what’s exciting and new.
Yet I deliberately left the ever-busier city where I grew up (“home”) to go and live in the country, to try to cling to some of the good things of the past that were slipping away in the big city. So I’m going through this struggle, too. Lose Syluné? Hell, lose ALL the human NPCs I spent forty years bringing to life? This had BETTER be good!
Wizards of the Coast obviously believes it will be. I’m going to do my best to help them make it so. I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . . .
So saith Ed.
love to all,
THO
Though I am frantically busy trying to get things done before flying off to Australia (during which trip I will almost certainly fall e-silent, BTW) I will try to respond to scribes who have posted in this thread, as I come to your posts in the e-mails THO forwards me.
Red Walker, you’re welcome, thanks for the love, and you are very, very right to say: “Fear of change is natural, and greater fear of Big changes is too!”
The reactions of Realms fans were expected for this very reason. Of COURSE everyone will be upset, or at least anxious, in some way, whether eager for change or hating its possible/probable consequences. Wooly Rupert and others are correct to say we haven’t seen enough yet to really judge the so-called “new” Realms, and I agree.
None of which doesn’t make opinions on it, based on the little we have seen, perfectly valid. Zandilar isn’t the only one to decide that the changes she’s heard about thus far seem “so... well... dumb, to put it bluntly.”
Please, please, all of you: respect each other’s opinions. Disagree with them as heatedly as you want, but please bend over backwards not to disrespect each other for holding them. As it happens, the way the “peekaboo” revelations have thus far appeared (I’m guessing so as to foment maximum “buzz” and therefore unpaid publicity), I agree with Zandilar. Those don’t sound like MY gods. :}
However, Chosen of Moradin quite rightly points out that “a timeline is not an explanation of what happens. It's only a summary. And a summary cannot explain clearly anything. The summary of the Fall of Myth Drannor don't explain the Fall of Myth Drannor. So, to see exactly what happened, we will have to wait until the next FRCS.”
Correct. As I’ve always said, mortals in the Realms can never know the “truth” about divine deeds and intentions, only what’s reported to them. By deities, priests, soothsayers, “possessed” madwits, and in dream-visions - - and ALL of those sources can be mistaken or misinterpreted, or can lie and distort or slant to further their own agendas. Yes, even the gods themselves. So what appears in THE GRAND HISTORY OF THE REALMS is what “the loudest reports say” happened, not what every being in the Realms personally saw and therefore “knows” (and agrees) happened.
It should be obvious to everyone by now that there are major changes in magic and the deities underway, and that the Spellplague is part of that. We now know that it begins in the Year of Blue Fire, in a dramatic way, and that part of Bob’s newest novel takes place a hundred years in the future (at a time when almost all human characters alive in the Realms of “today,” if they haven’t found some magical means of prolonging their lifespans - - in a “magic unstable and unreliable” situation - - will have perished of old age).
Which brings us to eiglos, who posts: “My only current played character in the Realms is a Priestess of Lurue. Her future must be uncertain, unless Lurue returns to her original role in the Realms.”
Passing over the obvious points that everyone’s future is always uncertain, and that the particular priestess will almost certainly have died of old age by the time of THE ORC KING anyway, we know that gods can and have been subsumed by other gods, and that “dead” or fallen gods are still worshipped fervently, just as before, because other deities adopt their followers, still grant spells, and so on - - so mortals may or may not know the true fate of the deity they worship. This MIGHT be one future for this specific priestess. Lurue (or any other deity, for that matter) could of course survive “unchanged,” or change in divine power but keep the same looks, portfolios, aims, and credos. Deities tend to shift subtly all the time in these things, however. And IF we are talking a century of time, that’s a lot of roleplaying (in terms of real-world duration). So for now, eiglos, roleplaying “life” for your priestess can be very much “business as usual.”
I personally would welcome the separation of, say, The Living Realms and the “history” RPGA play therein develops, from my own home campaign. If characters played in an RPGA adventure slay a wizard and blow up his tower, and I’m using both wizard and tower extensively in my home campaign, the potential conflict vanishes; the destruction won’t occur until the future (if mage and/or structure “go down” in my campaign, there’s plenty of in-Realms time for the one to be brought back to life somehow and the other rebuilt, to “explain away” the conflict).
A gamer can play in their own current campaign just as before, peek at eventual 4e Realms releases in hobby shops, at conventions, and via online discussion, and either decide never to go to 4e, or (if the new material at some point seems really exciting) “jump” the characters from one Realmsdate to the other by some magical means (even if it’s “caught in a portal for a century,” and I set just such weirdness up with some comments in SWORDS OF DRAGONFIRE that also “start to” explain the 2e to 3e “map changes” in the Realms without being too explicit, for those who didn’t make the change). Or, if a DM and player group collectively decide to move to the “new” Realms, they can even try to arrange cached treasure and PC breeding so as to “set up” descendants of their favourite characters as adventurers in the future Realms.
So, eiglos, your priestess can have a long and rewarding life and career, regardless.
However, this leads to another important point Zandilar raised: “If I run my campaign prior to the Year of Blue Fire, then I don't need the 4e products. Since I don't need them, I don't buy them. Since I don't buy them, WotC doesn't get my money. WotC doesn't get my money, and it is starting to look like a lot of the "old guard" are going down this path... So WotC starts to loose money, and eventually the line will get cut.”
This is indeed the Big Risk in all of this, the “roll of the dice” that I wish someone had never decided to make (because I personally value the ongoing development of a shared and unbroken imaginary Grand History of a fictional fantasy setting as something magnificent in itself, an achievement we should all continue to contribute to).
Yet it’s happening regardless of my personal wants, and I choose to be onboard trying to paddle and steer, rather than left behind swimming in the water, calling out that perhaps we should have set a different course.
Zandilar is perfectly correct to post: “I've never ever had problems with a business wanting to make a profit. That is, after all, the purpose of a business. But what they're doing here is taking a HUGE risk with a known quantity. They're risking the entire Realms product line with this move, and they seem to have gone to great lengths to rub us old guard up the wrong way with the changes they're making. (Just my perception, I'm sure they haven't deliberately set out to slight us.)”
I don’t think anyone at Wizards set out to deliberately upset or slight anyone. I do think it has been decided to make these changes swiftly, and that very “brutal rapidity” is increasing some of the upset along with the “buzz.”
However, there’s no reason at all to move your own campaign if you don’t want to. IF there’s a hundred-year jump, that’s a LOT of time to roleplay through; most FR campaigns I hear about don’t cover more than ten to twelve years in the Realms unless they incorporate “down time” jumps of their own, before they “run down” and the folks involved start anew.
Yes, the Spellplague is going to shift the flavour of the Realms (if wizards are dying or their magic is going wild or failing, and priests are all upset, too, it follows that the “tone” of daily life and therefore of roleplaying will change a bit), but the Realms is a big place, and there’s no reason yet to suspect that “all civilization will fall.” Waterdeep, Silverymoon, Cormyr - - I don’t think a century will sweep any of them away. CHANGE them, yes, but they’re all changing constantly, anyway; we just usually live with the changes as they’re happening rather than seeing a “big jump-cut.” Nor is there any reason, based on what we’ve seen thus far, to believe that the Spellplague is a single big event, over in a short time; the very name implies something of longer duration, with almost certainly (if real-world “plagues” are anything to go by) varying results from place to place and person to person (this city or region largely unaffected, that wizard untouched, this one over here driven mad; that allows DMs plenty of “elbow room” to preserve the “heart locations” of a beloved campaign, and favourite PCs and NPCs, too; it’s “the rest of the Realms” where the BIG changes occur . . . something that a lot of DMs have already been doing for two decades, as they steer their own campaigns around events in the published Realms).
None of which means my arguments should be seen as quelling, denying, or belittling the personal anger and upset longtime Realms fans are feeling over this. Believe me, I know how you feel. :}
Neriandal Freit, your queries don’t come off as offensive, at all (and I’m glad you loved that little scene in EL’S DAUGHTER; one of my favourite moments, out of everything I’ve written). I hear you and I sympathize, deeply. (And yes, I’ll check out “Redeemers of Dawn,” and let you know; somebody please give THO a heads up when the new Compendium is released, okay?)
My answer begins: Although I know the Realms is intended as “a place to play,” and therefore should be something of a haven from the unpleasantnesses of real life, so we can hold on to elements in it we love and hold most precious, even in the Realms everything changes. I hate changing anything in the published Realms before I finish the (admittedly endless) task of detailing every corner of it (we still aren’t really off the first continent, are we?), but the alternative is static boredom . . . dust settling on statues in silence.
Everything changes; eventually, everyone (even deities, as they are conceived of in the Realms, with power tied to worshippers) dies. So with that said, my "answer direct" to you becomes another question: In real life, and in the Realms, do you NOT fall in love with someone, or befriend them, or work with them on something that interests you both and that you can both be proud of, because someday both of you will die?
I don’t think so. Despite yourself, even if you know we’re all rushing to oblivion, you do it anyway. In the end, that’s what “living” is all about.
We know we’re all doomed (as the song goes: “We’re here for a good time/Not a long time”), but we go ahead and love, laugh, climb mountains, read books, and fall in love with the Realms anyway. At least I did. :}
If it helps you decide, I intend to go on exploring the Realms, bringing us all more detail. Some of it in the “now” Realms, and some of it in the “new” Realms.
I strongly suspect the published Realms will shortly become “new Realms only” in terms of the time-setting of products - - and that many fans may step back from that new Realms. That’s an individual choice I certainly don’t want to try to (further than by setting forth my views here) influence for everyone. It’s going to have to be your call.
I hope you’ll join with Xysma and others in “clinging to the merest sliver of hope that Ed, Eric, and the rest can salvage what at first glance is going to be a nightmare for those of us who love the Realms so dearly,” and therefore at least give the new Realms a look.
I’m going to go right on exploring the Realms, and if that means finding some way to paint in bits of the “Lost Years” in the time-jump, I’ll try to find some way to do that. We MIGHT end up with a Realms of the novels that’s far “ahead in time” of where you or other gamers might be roleplaying, and therefore not conflicting much with your unfolding play. Lovely smell over here, steak sizzling over there, so to speak.
I KNOW it hurts when you’ve come to love and cherish a fictional place and characters, that you can enjoy in your imagination, and someone goes and stomps on what you hold precious. Yet what lies your imagination can be only be hurt if you let it be.
In the Realms, this has all happened before; the Mystra you loved that scene about is Mystra Number 2 (Number 3 if you count Mystryl). The Realms you love grew out of previous planet-shaking debacles. and you may come to like the post-Spellplague Realms.
Or not. I understand and respect both your love for the Realms, and that you feel the way you do right now.
Kuje expressed his dismay early on in this, and many other scribes have cried out between him and you; I understand and sympathize with all of your misgivings and raw emotions. I went through the same thing at a secret summit meeting at GenCon some years ago; believe me, heavy-hitter novelists and game designers who love the Realms have argued about this “change” over and over heatedly.
There’s always a strong streak in gamers and game designers of what I said onstage at the Killer Breakfast this year, when Tracy asked me what my character was going to do, and I replied: “Being a game designer, I go for the bright shiny object.” We always feel the lure of what’s exciting and new.
Yet I deliberately left the ever-busier city where I grew up (“home”) to go and live in the country, to try to cling to some of the good things of the past that were slipping away in the big city. So I’m going through this struggle, too. Lose Syluné? Hell, lose ALL the human NPCs I spent forty years bringing to life? This had BETTER be good!
Wizards of the Coast obviously believes it will be. I’m going to do my best to help them make it so. I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . . .
So saith Ed.
love to all,
THO
They said they weren't going to do any novels (yeah... riiiiight) or sourcebooks covering that period, but I think a comicbook set then would be frickin' awesome!
And don't dis crossovers - Darkhorse practically re-invented them and made them cool enough that the 'big two' had to copy the format. They were the first to give us Jason vs Freddie, or Alians vs Predator - both of which went on to become movies.
I'm still waiting for the Robo-cop/Terminator crossover movie to go with that comic. :D
Of course, that same cross-over fad gave us Batman vs Predator, The X-men vs Star Trek, and Batman meets the Archies
.At least Batman got his A__ kicked. :P
And don't dis crossovers
Don't worry, I'm not. Like I said, some are. I just got a bone to pick over Thor losing to Superman and Captain Marvel losing to Thor, that's all. ;)
As for Dark Horse, yeah, I loved their Aliens Vs. Predator comics. Hell, I loved the individual Aliens and Predator comics they had. They had this great run-up to the first Aliens Vs. Predator comic in Dark Horse Presents. Wish I still had that comic, because it was amazing. Hell, that reminds me. I really need to get around to buying up the various omnibus's that Dark Horse is putting out, like this one.
And yes, a Robocop Vs. Terminator movie would be unbelievably bad-ass. To bad it'll never happen. Hell, I'm still waiting for a good Aliens Vs. Predator movie.
First of all, your analogy of comparing the Realms to "That 70s Show" was a good one. I can't disagree with that at all. But you know there's a "but" coming. If I interpreted your acronym correctly, FRCS stands for the "Forgotten Realms Campaign Sourcebook." Yes, it does in fact serve a worthy introduction for the setting. Yes, that is in fact what it was designed for (the 2e and 3e versions both). But if someone were to ask me, "What's the big deal with Forgotten Realms?" and I handed them what essentially boils down to a textbook, it probably won't hold their attention for more than a few minutes unless they already play D&D.
Conversely, if someone were to ask me, "What's the big deal with Star Wars?" I'd simply sit them down and pop A New Hope into my DVD player (I happen to like the prequel films as well, they can teach a person much about the evils of politics, but I refuse to get dragged into THAT conversation, lol).
As for the whole thing about subraces, it's interesting that you should say there should be more subraces; you'd be the first person I've ever seen express such an opinion. As far as I'm concerned, evolution doesn't work that fast, and if it did why are there still modern animals roaming Faerun? Also, why do elves seem to evolve faster than other races when their generations are so much longer? All this simply reflects personal play-style, and as we all know that can vary significantly from game to game, so there's no way either of us are wrong. We just run different games.
Next, you said Drizzt was far from the greatest swordsman in the world, that he's mid-level. That reflects another problem I have with the Realms; the power levels can get a little too insane a little too often. A strange thing to say coming from a self-admitted fan of super-hero comics, but I like my fantasy to be slightly more powered-down. Makes everything feel a bit more realistic, which isn't the most important thing to me but it's an issue nevertheless.
Last and for once pretty much least of all, I too heard that the MMO was complete crap. I've never been big on MMOs in general, nor have I ever been big on Eberron. And no, I didn't back up anything I said about the MMO with facts, because I don't work for WotC. But they DID pick Eberron for reason, and there IS a distinct possibility that they chose Eberron over Toril as not to overwhelm people. Of course, I'm merely speculating and you can discount such musing all you want without offending me.
It was actually both a good Punisher story and a good Archie story, which scared the crap out of me. At the same time, it reinforced the notion that there's NO EXCUSE for books like Batman/Spider-Man being garbage.
I love and hate crossovers. They rarely meet my expectations, but when they do it's just awesome (once again, "JLA/Avengers" comes to mind).
As for the whole Spellplague era comic... like I said, I know people in the industry and have access to some pretty good artists. I definitely can't get WotC to listen to me, but I can see about working on one heckuva badass fanfic, complete with pretty pictures. Anyone got any good plot ideas?
If I interpreted your acronym correctly, FRCS stands for the "Forgotten Realms Campaign Sourcebook."
-Yes, that's what it stands for.
Yes, it does in fact serve a worthy introduction for the setting. Yes, that is in fact what it was designed for (the 2e and 3e versions both). But if someone were to ask me, "What's the big deal with Forgotten Realms?" and I handed them what essentially boils down to a textbook, it probably won't hold their attention for more than a few minutes unless they already play D&D.
-For better or for worse, the Forgotten Realms are a D&D campaign setting. That said, I never played in the Forgotten Realms until a few weeks ago. All of the D&D-centric information was more or less useless to me, as someone who didn't campaign in the Forgotten Realms. That never dissuaded me from reading the book, and learning about the setting, as the FRCS, D&D elements aside, is a book designed to give an overview of the setting.
Conversely, if someone were to ask me, "What's the big deal with Star Wars?" I'd simply sit them down and pop A New Hope into my DVD player (I happen to like the prequel films as well, they can teach a person much about the evils of politics, but I refuse to get dragged into THAT conversation, lol).
-Which is, in effect, what the FRCS does, though in a less "stimulating" medium.
As for the whole thing about subraces, it's interesting that you should say there should be more subraces; you'd be the first person I've ever seen express such an opinion.
-And, I'm far from the only, mind you.
As far as I'm concerned, evolution doesn't work that fast, and if it did why are there still modern animals roaming Faerun?
-I'm not exactly getting how you are going from Point A to Point B...
Also, why do elves seem to evolve faster than other races when their generations are so much longer?
-Elves don't evolve, period. Various Elven subraces exist due to divine intervention and origin.
Next, you said Drizzt was far from the greatest swordsman in the world, that he's mid-level. That reflects another problem I have with the Realms; the power levels can get a little too insane a little too often. A strange thing to say coming from a self-admitted fan of super-hero comics, but I like my fantasy to be slightly more powered-down. Makes everything feel a bit more realistic, which isn't the most important thing to me but it's an issue nevertheless.
-Again, this is something that is subjective. I don't have a problem with the relative power levels of various individuals. My own setting has quite a few Epic NPCs, many high level characters, many middling level characters, and a bunch of low level characters. I don't find any problems, nor have my players ever mentioned anything.
And no, I didn't back up anything I said about the MMO with facts, because I don't work for WotC. But they DID pick Eberron for reason, and there IS a distinct possibility that they chose Eberron over Toril as not to overwhelm people. Of course, I'm merely speculating and you can discount such musing all you want without offending me.
-Right...And, the odds of that are (let's choose an arbitrary number) 100 to 1. The odds of any reason other than that are 100 to 99.
My vote for Best Crossover Ever; "The Punisher Meets Archie"!
Geeee... I must have missed that little Gem.
Best pseudo-crossover -
When they had that stupid 'Race of Champions' held by the Running Man (an Elder of the Universe), and all of the 'speedsters' from the Marvel Universe had to run a race from Earth to the Moon (someone built a highway - go figure).
It came down to - after hours of running - only a few participents still in, and when one of them (I forget who) was just about to touch the finish line, Barry Allen appeared on the Marvel Earth and ran the entire distance in a nano-second, completeing it instantly and not letting ANY of the Marvel heroes win.
Being an old-time Flash fan, I just thought that was THE coolest tribute to the dead hero.
Since they didn't actually mention his real name or his super-hero name it wasn't a real cross-over, but he was in a shredded Red suit with a lightning bolt on the chest and little wings on his tattered mask.
I found it intersting as well that in TWO Spiderman movies, Mae parker says to Peter "You're not Superman, you know".
I just love stuff like that.
The reason I mention this is because it makes Dragonlance more than just a fun place to game. It's similiar to Star Wars d20; when people gather round the table, there's no need for exposition. The GM doesn't need to explain the nature of the Force, who Jedi/Sith are, what the hell a Tattooine is, or what happens when you don't let the Wookie win. Of course that leaves less room for creativity, but the feeling of familiarity goes a long way toward keeping things moving, I find. Dragonlance is the same way; once you've read the books, you become endeared to them and the setting comes to life long before the game starts.
As for the whole thing about power levels, I prefer lower power levels in my campaign after the 3e Epic Level Handbook came out. I loved the book at first, but over time my players became less and less interested in playing a fantasy role-playing game than they did crunching big numbers. To make matters worse, every time I tried enter a game as player the DM would always spend too much damn time introducing his mega-NPCs of doom. When that happens, you take the spotlight away from the players and that's neither fun nor fair.
But like I said, I loved the book. In my campaign, the epic-level characters are heroes of legend the players likely won't run into. They're the exception, not the rule, and most of them are no longer among the living. The world is lacking heroes, and that's where the PCs come in! If said PCs can show up every week and contribute toward the fun of the group, eventually they'll get to enjoy those epic levels and when they do, they'll feel truly powerful because Elminster won't be there to school their 30th level arses!
Bah... at this point I'm just rambling. We both make valid points (at least I hope I do) and we're both evidently pretty good at wasting time when there's excess time to be wasted. One question though; do ya play 4e yet/at all? Whether you embrace all the changes or not, it IS a heckuva lotta fun. If ya do, I plan on picking your brain once I start up a FR campaign.
Like you, I only have the barest experience gaming in said world, and I'd like to simply to take a break from all the work that's gone into and continues to go into my homebrewn world of Shallen.
Break it into bite-sized chunks, and more folks are apt to read it. ;)
Just some friendly advice.
lol I just read an old Avengers story arc called "The Kree/Skrull War" (you've heard of it, I'm sure). At one point, Rick Jones is musing on all the WWII super-hero comics he used to read back in the orphanage, and it shows the following old-school heroes; Captain America, Namor, the Patriot, the Human Torch, and oh yes, BATMAN!!!
lol the symbol on his chest was hidden, of course, but there was no doubt who the pointy-eared fellow was!
Later, everyone's favorite wife-beating jerk Hank Pym shrinks himself down to explore the innards of the Vision (an underrated hero if there ever was one), and he remarks that all the tech-stuff "...reminds me of Metropolis! The one from the movie with that cute dame, not Clark Kent's!"
Good stuff, good stuff.
Go find Punisher vs. Archie. It's pretty cheap, pretty common, and all-around fun.
Still though, absolutely nothing beats the new Marvel movies when it comes to crossovers. They may cross into DC or anything that crazy, but c'mon man; we actually got to see Sam Jackson play Nick Fury!
Sweet Goddess I can't wait for The First Avenger: Captain America to come out... Cap is easily my favorite super-hero next to Batman. Long live Steve Rogers!
Of course FR is a D&D campaign setting first and foremost. But have you ever read the original Dragonlance trilogy? Don't feel bad if you haven't, but do go out and read them as soon as possible. Also get into the sequels; they're even better than the original trilogy, no joke. Of all the hundreds of novels I've read in my life, Dragonlance has been the only series to make consistiently laugh out loud (to the point where I have to put the book down and compose myself) AND cry (again, to the point where I have to put the book down and remind myself it's just a damn book).
-Never read any Dragonlance books, nor am I interested in doing so.
The reason I mention this is because it makes Dragonlance more than just a fun place to game. It's similiar to Star Wars d20; when people gather round the table, there's no need for exposition. The GM doesn't need to explain the nature of the Force, who Jedi/Sith are, what the hell a Tattooine is, or what happens when you don't let the Wookie win.
-Only if the players in question already know what the Force is, who the Jedi/Sith are, what/where Tattooine is, and what happens when you don't let the Wookie win. If they don't, then such things need to be explained, in order for them to understand to the fullest capacity.
To make matters worse, every time I tried enter a game as player the DM would always spend too much damn time introducing his mega-NPCs of doom. When that happens, you take the spotlight away from the players and that's neither fun nor fair.
-Which highlights the issue of higher level NPCs, and how it is not a fault with the setting, but rather, with the DM. Just like guns aren't inherently bad, though they have the capacity to do bad in the "wrong hands", so too are said NPCs.
One question though; do ya play 4e yet/at all? Whether you embrace all the changes or not, it IS a heckuva lotta fun. If ya do, I plan on picking your brain once I start up a FR campaign.
-No I do not, nor do I intend on it, unless someone specific decided to run a campaign. Then, and only then, will I.
-That said, feel free to "pick" my brain anytime.
I don't agree with many or most of the changes made to the 4E Realms. I doubt I will enjoy or play in the setting. Although, in the beginning, I was hopeful. The setting needed a face lift and a time jump - not necessarily a 100 year time jump - but one large enough to clean things up.
WotC could have retconned the planes (I actually like the 4E Cosmology), since it would have only been a retcon of a retcon, did the time leap and then changed the setting as needed. NPC's they wanted dead could have died off (without a major RSE), lands that they wanted changed could have been changed (without the Abeir crap).
In the end, I don't think people would have complained as much. There would still be a large amount of people up in arms, but the backlash wouldn't have been as bad.
First of all Mr. Karsus, we're all entitled to our opinions, so if you don't want to read Dragonlance of course you don't have to. Are there any particular reasons, though? Just curious. If you enjoy Forgotten Realms or Star Wars you can enjoy Dragonlance (not that you ever said you particularly enjoyed Star Wars).
And speaking of Star Wars, I wouldn't play Star Wars with someone who didn't know what a Jedi or Wookie was. It'd be somewhat rude if I asked someone to engage in fandom they were clueless about. Most likely, I invite them over for some beers and Star Wars flicks long before I played d20 Star Wars with them.
Last but not least, the high-level NPC thing; no, that's not campaign specific, and it's definitely more of a DM issue. Total agreement, no argument. FR is still pre-built with crazy NPCs of doom, but once again as DM I'm free to ignore said NPCs entirely if I so choose.
Most likely, I'll use the FR campaign guidebooks for their crunch material (new feats, powers, classes and whatnot). Once again I'd like to run a game without making my own world, and hopefully the new FR books will help me do just that.
If they don't, oh well. I still have the 3e book and I'll just use that one in 4e (not terribly difficult, really).
First of all Mr. Karsus, we're all entitled to our opinions, so if you don't want to read Dragonlance of course you don't have to. Are there any particular reasons, though? Just curious. If you enjoy Forgotten Realms or Star Wars you can enjoy Dragonlance (not that you ever said you particularly enjoyed Star Wars).
-I enjoy the Forgotten Realms for specific reasons. To make it simple, I like them because of 'X','Y' and 'Z'. Otherwise, I don't particularly enjoy the fantasy novels that make up the bulk of the genre. That said, because Dragonlance does not have 'X', 'Y' and 'Z', I am not interested in it.
And speaking of Star Wars, I wouldn't play Star Wars with someone who didn't know what a Jedi or Wookie was. It'd be somewhat rude if I asked someone to engage in fandom they were clueless about. Most likely, I invite them over for some beers and Star Wars flicks long before I played d20 Star Wars with them.
-Well, that's a personal choice, and nothing wrong with it. The point is that not everyone knows the details of Star Wars. When I tell most people that I, personally, ascribe to Leor Hal's philosophical theory on the Force, most people kinda look at me.
Last but not least, the high-level NPC thing; no, that's not campaign specific, and it's definitely more of a DM issue. Total agreement, no argument. FR is still pre-built with crazy NPCs of doom, but once again as DM I'm free to ignore said NPCs entirely if I so choose.
-Right. For whatever reason, it's a common "criticism" regarding the Forgotten Realms, that is often thought to be an inherent problem of the setting itself. Of course, Star Wars "suffers" from the same problem, and yet, you hardly hear people citing the "problem" there.
-Well, that's a personal choice, and nothing wrong with it. The point is that not everyone knows the details of Star Wars. When I tell most people that I, personally, ascribe to Leor Hal's philosophical theory on the Force, most people kinda look at me.
Having not read any of the books, when I started playing Star Wars D20 all I knew is that I believed, "There is no light side, there is no dark side, there is only the force." I didn't realize there was an actual name for that philosophy in the world.
On a separate note, I understand you are only interested in the Realms, but I think you should seriously consider at some point picking up the original Dragonlance Trilogy by Margaret Weiss and Tracy Hickman. If for no other reason than I think the success of that trilogy helped pave the way for the success and amount of the FR novels today (Lord knows the Greyhawk novels didn't.)
And that was the case in previous editions. You proved that yourself, as all the novels you listed weren't 4E novels.
Well, they might not be the same, but you have to admit that they have plenty of similarities when it comes to the "good doesn't always win" moral.
Bah, how would you and/or I know? Through novels? campaign settings? I really don't pay much attention to campaign settings. :snob:
And how do you know that 4e novel morals which state facts about "good doesn't always win" is not similar to 3.5?
-On another version of 4e defense....Life's like a wheel....When you think in the earlier versions good always seemed to be winning, that the legends always had happy endings...Well then in 4e, the wheel of life turns....Mystra gets killed by Cyric, gods become less numerous...after all, where's the balance in power and uberness if the wheel of life doesn't turn.
Having not read any of the books, when I started playing Star Wars D20 all I knew is that I believed, "There is no light side, there is no dark side, there is only the force." I didn't realize there was an actual name for that philosophy in the world.
-Yes...The Potentium, the Unifying Force, take your pick. While George Lucas has said, "This isn't the way things really are!", he's a stupid turkey, so take anything he says with a grain of salt. The Potentium is the only Force philosophy that makes absolute sense, metaphysically and politically/sociologically.
On a separate note, I understand you are only interested in the Realms, but I think you should seriously consider at some point picking up the original Dragonlance Trilogy by Margaret Weiss and Tracy Hickman. If for no other reason than I think the success of that trilogy helped pave the way for the success and amount of the FR novels today (Lord knows the Greyhawk novels didn't.)
-As I said before, I actually don't like fantasy novels. My interests are fairly limited, and generic fantasy is not something I like. I have some exposure to Dragonlance, via the Cloakmaster Cycle, but I wasn't particulatly enamored with the world. For whatever reason, the Forgotten Realms have that something that make me like it. The 4-Gotten Realms don't, for a variety of reasons, which saddens me, as there aren't too many "current era" Forgotten Realms books I haven't read, which means once I read the last one, the well is dried up.
Well, they might not be the same, but you have to admit that they have plenty of similarities when it comes to the "good doesn't always win" moral.
Bah, how would you and/or I know? Through novels? campaign settings? I really don't pay much attention to campaign settings. :snob:
And how do you know that 4e novel morals which state facts about "good doesn't always win" is not similar to 3.5?
-On another version of 4e defense....Life's like a wheel....When you think in the earlier versions good always seemed to be winning, that the legends always had happy endings...Well then in 4e, the wheel of life turns....Mystra gets killed by Cyric, gods become less numerous...after all, where's the balance in power and uberness if the wheel of life doesn't turn.
-Creyzi, no offense but...What are you talking about?
I found it intersting as well that in TWO Spiderman movies, Mae parker says to Peter "You're not Superman, you know".
I just love stuff like that.
While it's not the same as an inter-company crossover, check out the new Marvel movies. I love what they've been doing with that. Usually, at best, you get a small blurb or hint of the greater world outside. Metropolis gets mentioned in a Batman movie, etc. But what they're doing with the Marvel movies, wow! Let's see...
- Captain America's shield gets a cameo in the Iron Man movie
- SHIELD is in the Iron Man movie
- Nick Fury is in the Iron Man movie
- There's talk of an "Avenger Initiative" in the Iron Man movie
- SHIELD, Nick Fury, and Stark Industries are referenced in the Hulk movie
- Operation Rebirth and Captain America are alluded to in the Hulk movie (and someone is subjected to a version of the Super Soldier Serum)
- Tony Stark appears in the Hulk movie, and the Avenger Initiative is mentioned again
- Oh yeah, and supposedly, there's a brief glimpse of Daredevil in the end, during the fight with Abomination
And that's just for starters. In 2010 we'll have a Thor and Ant-Man movie, and possibly Iron Man 2 as well, all of which will have further references. That'll culminate in 2011 with the release of 'The First Avenger: Captain America', and 'The Avengers', which'll have Captain America, Iron Man, the Hulk, Thor, and Ant-Man. Marvel's kicking all kinds of ass with these movies. I can't wait for the next!
...man, my spine tingled just typing that!
Indeed, there will be an extended DVD with these remarkable scenes released sometime around Christmas. Needless to say, said DVD will likely end up sticky before it even gets home from Best Buy.
Evidently they cut these scenes out because they would have depressed children. Which makes sense. I mean, I don't know if you guys saw the new Hulk yet, but it was practically a Pixar film. Totally made for kids.
(I think my favorite part was when Abomination rubbed an exploding missile all over his nipples! Mmmm missile!!!!!)
Peep THIS out; the Incredible Hulk had over 70 minutes cut out of it. They showed part of one of the more important cut scenes in one of the old trailers; Bruce Banner goes to the antarctic to kill himself. When he goes there he encounters Nick Fury attempting to find a certain "someone" frozen in ice...
...man, my spine tingled just typing that!
Holy crap, serious? There were at least two scenes cut from the movie that were shown in the trailers (Banner talking to Samson and something else), but I didn't think it'd be anything near as important as that! Although I did know that the end fight scene got cut down from 20 minutes to 10. I really hope they do a Director's Cut, with the scenes included, rather then having the scenes separate.
Indeed, there will be an extended DVD with these remarkable scenes released sometime around Christmas. Needless to say, said DVD will likely end up sticky before it even gets home from Best Buy.
I'm itching to get both it and Iron Man on DVD already.
Evidently they cut these scenes out because they would have depressed children. Which makes sense. I mean, I don't know if you guys saw the new Hulk yet, but it was practically a Pixar film. Totally made for kids.
I saw it and I didn't get a kiddie vibe off of it. It was a damn good movie. As for why they cut it down, it's probably because those scenes would've made it a 3 hour long movie.
Didn't know about the part with Doc Sampson. Did he have green hair? lol I doubt it, but that would have been cool.
I knew the movie had to have a lot cut out when I first saw it, simply because of things like that chick Banner kissed in Brazil. That was random, and didn't seem to have much to do with the plot, indicating that other scenes were cut.
Speculation; the Mandarin survived Iron Man, and the Leader survived Hulk... an Avengers plot already in the works, maybe?
Never heard that the Magneto flick got canned, but I DO know that the Wolverine movie is gonna ROCK!!! It's going to start with the Origin storyline (which is one of the most beautiful comics ever produced), and... get this... Ryan freakin' Rynolds as Deadpool!
Again, tingles...
Oh, and in case people were wondering, Leonardo Decaprio is most likely going to play Steve Rogers in "The First Avenger: Captain America". I can see that (Decaprio IS a fantasic actor, no matter what anyone says), but he needs to REALLY bulk up for the role. Captain America needs to look like he can totally beat the crap out of people like Nick Fury and Tony Stark without even trying.
Didn't know about the part with Doc Sampson. Did he have green hair? lol I doubt it, but that would have been cool.
No green hair, as the guy didn't get hit with gamma radiation in the movie. He's Betty's boyfriend, remember?
Speculation; the Mandarin survived Iron Man, and the Leader survived Hulk... an Avengers plot already in the works, maybe?
Mandarin wasn't in Iron Man, but there were allusions to him. That terrorist group in Iron Man, IMO, was created by the Mandarin, as it was called the Ten Rings.
Never heard that the Magneto flick got canned
Shame about that, but I doubt there would've been any mention of Captain America in it. Marvel really needs to do with X-Men what they did with Hulk and the rest. Bring them back inhouse and make movies about them themselves. Although in the case of the X-Men, I'd keep the previous movies in continuity (even though X-Men 3 sucked horribly), and try to keep as much of the cast as possible. Kelsey Grammer as Beast. Who doesn't want to see that again?
but I DO know that the Wolverine movie is gonna ROCK!!! It's going to start with the Origin storyline (which is one of the most beautiful comics ever produced), and... get this... Ryan freakin' Rynolds as Deadpool!
Again, tingles...
I just hope they make an effort to recreate his costume onscreen. I'd love to see a real-life Deadpool costume.
Oh, and in case people were wondering, Leonardo Decaprio is most likely going to play Steve Rogers in "The First Avenger: Captain America". I can see that (Decaprio IS a fantasic actor, no matter what anyone says), but he needs to REALLY bulk up for the role. Captain America needs to look like he can totally beat the crap out of people like Nick Fury and Tony Stark without even trying.
I heard that and ugh! I have a hard time believing he could ever bulk up enough for the role of Captain America. Then again, a friend of mine did say that he was somewhat respectable in Blood Diamond. But from the pics of him in that movie I've seen, he wasn't close to being Steve Rogers big.
You're right about Doc Sampson... in fact when I saw the movie I pointed that out to my peeps. Guess they don't call me Longbottom Leafman for nuthin... lol!
I kinda disagree with X3 assessment, but I know I'm alone in this. It wasn't great, but it wasn't horrible either. Things like Beast and Juggernaut were awesome (go to Youtube and look up "I'm the Juggernaut {insert word for female dog here}" if you haven't seen that classic, hilarious cartoon yet), and the action finally lived up to what an X-Men movie should deliver. The plot, however, felt forced. Personally I blame Bryan Singer; it's his fault X3 and Superman Returns were both mediocre AT BEST.
I definitely don't think that X-Men should merge with the current Marvel Movie Universe. That has the potential to confuse audiences... hell, I read tons of comics every month, but I avoid non-Astonishing X-Men like the plague for fear of my head exploding. Spidey, the Fantastic Four, Daredevil... these are cameos that I'd personally approve of.
Last but not least, from what I read in Wizard Mandarin was sort of in Iron Man... he was the bald leader guy of the Ten Rings. Mandarin himself likely won't be any movies cuz let's face it, he's kind of a racist character concept, especially the way Jack Kirby used to draw him (and I mean NO disrespect to ol' Jack!).
And just to start more side-conversations; anyone seen the trailer for Punisher: War Journal? Go to Marvel.com RIGHT NOW if you haven't! The first one was good, but this one is gonna be Marvel Max good!
Ah dude, see Blood Diamond! Despite how much of a pretty boy Leo normally looks, he's a TOTAL badass in that movie. Eventually his baby-face disappears from your mind's eye. Once again though, he needs to bulk up. Perhaps Cap's chainmail will help a bit... but if you ever start losing hope, just think about what Christian Bale had to do for Batman Begins.
Yeah, I'm planning on buying both Blood Diamond and The Aviator in a week or two, if for no other reason than to assuage (or confirm) my fears about the possibility of DiCaprio playing Cap. A friend of mine says they're both good, so at least I'll get two potentially good movies, even if I end up deciding I hate the thought of DiCaprio as Cap.
(go to Youtube and look up "I'm the Juggernaut {insert word for female dog here}" if you haven't seen that classic, hilarious cartoon yet)
No worries. :D I saw that clip a good long while before I went to see X-Men 3. I made sure to show it to my brother a couple weeks before X-Men 3 came out, too. When the Juggernaut actually went and said that line
, the both of us laughed our asses off. Nobody else laughed, so apparently we were the only ones in the theater who'd seen that video. The plot, however, felt forced. Personally I blame Bryan Singer; it's his fault X3 and Superman Returns were both mediocre AT BEST.
You can't blame Bryan Singer for X3, as it was directed by Brett Ratner (who I DO blame). Superman Returns, however, you CAN blame on Bryan Singer. Man, I feel sorry for DC. They can't seem to catch any breaks with their movies, with the exception of Batman. Unfortunately for them, they're owned by Time-Warner. So they can't go ahead and make their own movie studio, the way Marvel has. It's completely out of their hands what Warner does with their characters.
I definitely don't think that X-Men should merge with the current Marvel Movie Universe. That has the potential to confuse audiences... hell, I read tons of comics every month, but I avoid non-Astonishing X-Men like the plague for fear of my head exploding. Spidey, the Fantastic Four, Daredevil... these are cameos that I'd personally approve of.
I don't know. I think they could do some great stuff. For one, Wolverine & Nick Fury. You can't tell me Hugh Jackman + Samuel L. Jackson wouldn't kick a metric ton of ass (Hmm. Jackman? Jackson? Jackson? Jackman?). There're other possibilities with SHIELD, like Project Wideawake.
Last but not least, from what I read in Wizard Mandarin was sort of in Iron Man... he was the bald leader guy of the Ten Rings. Mandarin himself likely won't be any movies cuz let's face it, he's kind of a racist character concept, especially the way Jack Kirby used to draw him (and I mean NO disrespect to ol' Jack!).
That guy was pretty cool, but I don't think he's gonna be the Mandarin. Besides, the Mandarin is chinese. And I'm sure they can portray him without being racist. I think there're a lot of great possibilities there, though, because from the point-of-view of the Chinese, the Mandarin may end up being the super-hero in that fight. Depends on what kind of storyline and portrayal they go for, of course.
And just to start more side-conversations; anyone seen the trailer for Punisher: War Journal? Go to Marvel.com RIGHT NOW if you haven't! The first one was good, but this one is gonna be Marvel Max good!
Haven't seen it, but man, I feel sorry for Tom Jane. If it's true that this movie is gonna kick ass, then it's a shame that he wasn't in it. Especially after fighting hard for a bloody Punisher sequel.
I loved him in the first one, even though I felt that the rest of the movie was pretty weak.Shame about that, but I doubt there would've been any mention of Captain America in it.
-Why? The early scripts that I learned from Wizard were that it was a WWII-era movie, centering around Magneto, his time in Poland, his time in a Nazi, concentration camp, and a climax with him discovering his powers, and being liberated. Being as that Wolverine, Captain America, Nick Fury, the original Human Torch, and others were all active during this point in time, any could have theoretically made cameos, or at least gotten mentions.
Yeah, I'm planning on buying both Blood Diamond and The Aviator in a week or two, if for no other reason than to assuage (or confirm) my fears about the possibility of DiCaprio playing Cap. A friend of mine says they're both good, so at least I'll get two potentially good movies, even if I end up deciding I hate the thought of DiCaprio as Cap.
Those are indeed good movies. I have my fears about Decaprio as well, but back in the day I had my fears about the new Iron Man and Hulk flicks and well... those movies kinda slapped me across the face with awesome. I have faith in Marvel Studios.
No worries. :D I saw that clip a good long while before I went to see X-Men 3. I made sure to show it to my brother a couple weeks before X-Men 3 came out, too. When the Juggernaut actually went and said that line
, the both of us laughed our asses off. Nobody else laughed, so apparently we were the only ones in the theater who'd seen that video. lol for almost a year, that video served as the framework for my entire sense of humor. It was awful.
You can't blame Bryan Singer for X3, as it was directed by Brett Ratner (who I DO blame). Superman Returns, however, you CAN blame on Bryan Singer. Man, I feel sorry for DC. They can't seem to catch any breaks with their movies, with the exception of Batman. Unfortunately for them, they're owned by Time-Warner. So they can't go ahead and make their own movie studio, the way Marvel has. It's completely out of their hands what Warner does with their characters.
I don't blame Brett Ratner. I blame the guy who hired the guy who directed the ******* Rush Hour series to direct X-Men. I also blame Bryan Singer for leaving his trilogy before it was done only to make a crappy Superman movie. That said, I think Superman Returns would have utterly unwatchable WITHOUT Singer.
When you pitch a movie in Hollywood, you first have to summerize it in 25 words or less. Here's my pitch for the next Supes flick; "Superman fights a villain, perhaps Brainiac."
lol is that so freakin' hard? You're right, it's got to be Warner Bros. I'm gonna laugh when the Shazam movie out Supermans Superman. It'll be ironic and appropriate.
I don't know. I think they could do some great stuff. For one, Wolverine & Nick Fury. You can't tell me Hugh Jackman + Samuel L. Jackson wouldn't kick a metric ton of ass (Hmm. Jackman? Jackson? Jackson? Jackman?). There're other possibilities with SHIELD, like Project Wideawake.
Wolverine isn't an X-Men character, as far I'm concerned (I'm being halfway sarcastic again, FYI). He was on the X-Men for a long time and he's one of the most important aspects of the teams overall history, but he originated in an issue of Hulk, which is an Avengers title. Thus, to me, Wolverine is an Avenger.
And no, I can't tell you Hugh Jackman and Sam Jackson kicking ass together wouldn't be awesome, because it would be utterly epic.
Sam Jackson is the ultimate nerd, man... not only is he debatably the most powerful Jedi ever, but he's also Nick freakin' Fury!
That guy was pretty cool, but I don't think he's gonna be the Mandarin. Besides, the Mandarin is chinese. And I'm sure they can portray him without being racist. I think there're a lot of great possibilities there, though, because from the point-of-view of the Chinese, the Mandarin may end up being the super-hero in that fight. Depends on what kind of storyline and portrayal they go for, of course.
Yes, Mandarin is in fact Chinese, and I can definitely see him being portrayed as a hero to his people considering the political tone of the Iron Man flick. But consider this; in the original storyline, Tony Stark was captured and tortured in Asia because that was what was relevant at the time (the early 1960s). These days, wouldn't a Middle-Eastern analog to Mandarin make sense?
Haven't seen it, but man, I feel sorry for Tom Jane. If it's true that this movie is gonna kick ass, then it's a shame that he wasn't in it. Especially after fighting hard for a bloody Punisher sequel.
I loved him in the first one, even though I felt that the rest of the movie was pretty weak.I loved him in the first one, too. Loved the whole movie other than his roommates... Frank Castle does NOT need roommates. The new guy looks EXACTLY like Castle is drawn in Punisher Max, however, and that makes me very, very happy.
And if you want more Thomas Jane action, I saw a pic of him dressed up as Jonah Hex. My grandfather created Jonah Hex so that may excite me more than it does you guys, but still if you don't know about the character look him up. Hex is every bit as cool as Castle (I'm getting a tattoo sleeve of the both of em, since a crossover could never happen lol).
lol for almost a year, that video served as the framework for my entire sense of humor. It was awful.
You're not the only one. I quoted various parts of it for a long time after I first saw it. "Don't you know who I am? I'M THE JUGGERNAUT, *****!" I don't blame Brett Ratner. I blame the guy who hired the guy who directed the ******* Rush Hour series to direct X-Men. I also blame Bryan Singer for leaving his trilogy before it was done only to make a crappy Superman movie. That said, I think Superman Returns would have utterly unwatchable WITHOUT Singer.
Jon Peters was the producer (google him, Superman Lives, and Kevin Smith to find out how horrible that is). Between that and Singer's unhealthy love for the crappiest elements of the original Superman movies (Lex Luthor as a super real estate agent? Come ON! What a waste of Kevin Spacey), it was doomed to failure. And frankly, despite what they've been talking about with the sequel, I am not confident, as it still sounds like crap. Superman as "an angry god"? Huh? How about Superman as Superman? Not to mention that we'll still be stuck with that lousy superkid in the sequel. Blech!
Mandarin is Chinese, and I can definitely see him being portrayed as a hero to his people considering the political tone of the Iron Man flick. But consider this; in the original storyline, Tony Stark was captured and tortured in Asia because that was what was relevant at the time (the early 1960s). These days, wouldn't a Middle-Eastern analog to Mandarin make sense?
Good point. But you can't have a middle-eastern character... and still call him the Mandarin. It doesn't fly. The character's rooted in his being Chinese.
I loved him in the first one, too. Loved the whole movie other than his roommates... Frank Castle does NOT need roommates. The new guy looks EXACTLY like Castle is drawn in Punisher Max, however, and that makes me very, very happy.
I actually thought they were the best part other than Tom Jane. But then again, I'm partial to anything and everything that has Garth Ennis' name on it.
And if you want more Thomas Jane action, I saw a pic of him dressed up as Jonah Hex. My grandfather created Jonah Hex so that may excite me more than it does you guys, but still if you don't know about the character look him up. Hex is every bit as cool as Castle (I'm getting a tattoo sleeve of the both of em, since a crossover could never happen lol).
Your grandfather created Jonah Hex? Damn, that's fantastic. I love the current Jonah Hex title. A Jonah Hex movie would be absolutely amazing.
Everything I can find says that "X-Men Origins: Magneto" is still a go (currently "in production"). I think they are planning for a release in 2010, maybe the end of 2009.
-Didn't know that was the title...
-Anyway, let's try to return to the topic, or, at least cleverly weave the current conversation into something having to do with the Forgotten Realms.
Bottom line, I think the original analogy doesn't really hold up. While one can make the assertion "both settings were in need of changes" - to then jump the conclusion that any changes are beneficial is a logical fallacy.
To illustrate what I mean, we are comparing a 'full reset' to 'radical alteration of the existing setting combined with significant advancement of the timeline'. Had there been an actual 'reset' of the Realms, we would be having radically different discussions on these boards. Personally, I would have accepted a full reset far more easily than the changes they've made - but that's me, and I'm sure others would be as upset, or more (and some who like the changes might well be upset).
Secondly, I greatly disagree about the nature and scope of the changes needed. I feel that what was called for was a scalpel - not a chainsaw. In fact, many of the changes seem like they will cause more problems than they solve, or will fail to solve the things that they were intended to address (while upsetting fans of the setting).
To attempt to make a comparison (and, fair warning, I am no expert on either the Marvel or DC universes, in any of their iterations), that instead of pushing the reset button, DC had instead elected to create a storyline about a "Superhero Plague", and advanced the overall timeline by a century, killing off a number of superheros and villains (because there were just too many of them, and they were overshadowing the new heroes that comic authors wanted to create), and had done so in ways that many fans found distasteful and nonsensical (say, Wonder Woman being hunted down and killed on her home island, in her stronghold, by her two greatest enemies) - but had kept all of the previous continuity intact, trying to shoehorn it all in despite the fact that one of the proclaimed reasons for the change was that the overly large amount of prior history was a problem?
Regarding another point, Dragonlance - what did you think of the Fifth Age stuff, then? What would you say to someone who, new to the setting, went back to read those 'classic' novels, and was then introduced to what happens in Dragons of Summer Flame and afterward?
Personally, I liked Dragonlance - but it had a salient problem that the world revolved too closely around those iconic characters from the novels. I always found it difficult to create my own campaign there, because the world seemed so focused on that single plotline, and the things that derived from it. I still liked the setting, I simply found that there wasn't enough effort made to highlighting alternative examples of storylines, or de-centralizing the world storyline from those iconic NPCs, de-emphasizing them.
And when they did decide to go on a mass setting-changing NPC-killing spree, it destroyed much of what I loved about the setting, and the story that had brought me there in the first place. Again - chainsaw, instead of scalpel.
-Didn't know that was the title...
-Anyway, let's try to return to the topic, or, at least cleverly weave the current conversation into something having to do with the Forgotten Realms.
Well then...
One of the good things about comic books is that the material comes out in so many different sources, that it is much easier to "reboot" or "re-imagine" the line and simply put it out in a new book like the Ultimate series, or a movie. While this might earn fan ire, this is a lot less likely to upset them as much as if there was only one line that was considered canon in terms of continuity. If you try to keep everything canon and preserve complete continuity, you wind up having to pull things like DCs Crisis on Infinite Earths if you want to try to simplify the setting or make changes.
This is the same problem that Campaign settings face, as they are the only source for the world, so you can't really separate changes into other lines so people are not upset. This problem is often amplified by the addition of canon novels into the setting. This means that you have lot's of possibilities for things to build up and become more complicated, but no real methods to try stuff out with minimal repercussions. So if you want to change the setting or try something new out, the entire setting has to go in a giant cluster**** much like Crisis on Infinite Earths. Enter the Spellplague....
That good enough for you LK? :P
That good enough for you LK? :P
-Yes.
-I don't agree with the notion you raise, however.
-Yes.
-I don't agree with the notion you raise, however.
So you are saying if there weren't a few different "Realms" so to speak (much like you have the movie universes, and possibly a couple of different comic universes of the same comic) it wouldn't be possible that at the least one of the classic Realms would have avoided devastation?
-No, the general notion that, in having everything canon in the same line of continuity, things must, every so often be "reset" via DC's Infinite Earth. When it is brought up, I look to actual society/societies to disprove such notions. But, that's just me.
Yes, but the difference with actual society/societies is they don't have an eternally flawed and inherently stupid human acting as Supreme Over-Deity. I guess I just have a lot less faith in the human race.....
Yes, but the difference with actual society/societies is they don't have an eternally flawed and inherently stupid human acting as Supreme Over-Deity. I guess I just have a lot less faith in the human race.....
-No, you have multiple flawed and possibly inherently stupid Humans attempting to act as supreme over deities.
-No, you have multiple flawed and possibly inherently stupid Humans attempting to act as supreme over deities.
Ahh, but an overwhelming sense of entitlement and control does not omnipotence make.
-No, you have multiple flawed and possibly inherently stupid Humans attempting to act as supreme over deities.
That should be the first sentence in the Dungeon Master's Guide 4E.
The comic book worlds presented the world as existing in a multiverse with worlds somewhat similar to each other. Have the supreme over-deities ever applied the concept of a multiverse to D&D, specifically to the Forgotten Realms. With so many different places its history could diverge into ulternate timelines............:pile:
More to the point, I'd like to reiterate that I stand by my original post. My call for everyone to "embrace" the new changes was certainly too presumptive, so I'd like to withdraw said statement and replace it with a nice, clean, "keep an open mind folks". You don't have to agree with any of the new changes, but if the similarities between 'Crisis' and the Spellplague weren't there the entire thread would have been quickly dismissed.
Lord Karsus may be right about the whole "scalpel/chainsaw" thing, but it's too early to tell I think. The books aren't even out yet. Be that as it may, the Spellplague serves as a great jump-on point for newbies, and that notion should certainly be embraced even if the method of delivering it isn't.
Y'see, superheroes and D&D are all about two things; fun and passion, both of which should be shared as often as possible. One shouldn't need to learn the "secret handshake" in order to appreciate the Realms or any other aspect of D&D. Seasoned folks like us should teach that handshake to anyone and everyone who seems interested in learning.
Projects like Crisis on Infinite Earths and the new FR campaign sourcebooks help these newbies feel like they're on the same page as us vets. And that's a good thing.
First of all, I'm sorry to everyone that I can't use the quote boxes properly.
-It's not that hard. Put 'QUOTE' in brackets at the beginning of what you want to quote, and but '/QUOTE' in brackets at the end of what you want to quote.
Lord Karsus may be right about the whole "scalpel/chainsaw" thing, but it's too early to tell I think. The books aren't even out yet.
-There are plenty of materials available, via the WotC website, and novels.
One shouldn't need to learn the "secret handshake" in order to appreciate the Realms or any other aspect of D&D. Seasoned folks like us should teach that handshake to anyone and everyone who seems interested in learning.
-One never needed to learn a "secret handshake" to appreciate the Realms to begin with. Is there a lot of material out there? Sure. It has 20+ years of history, and a level of detail that no other published D&D campaign setting has. Is that a chore, to learn about the setting? No. If someone is picking up the campaign setting to begin with, they are showing a level of interest, and thus, learning is not seen as a chore, but as a fun activity.
What I mean is that we decided to assume that our players came to us knowing little, if anything, about the Forgotten Realms. If someone did - great, saved us the trouble. For everyone else, we did our best to provide a brief overview of the part of the setting we were using, from the standpoint of general fantasy, as well as anything that might be appropriate for their character. If people wanted to learn more (and they eventually did, in most cases) we pointed them in the right direction for appropriate source material online and in novels/sourcebooks.
Where I think a lot of people run into problems is not in the fact that there is too much history and detail to the setting. Rather, it's in the unfriendly (or even hostile) attitudes of some people towards less experienced gamers. This sort of thing isn't unique to the Realms by any means. You can find it in any hobby of sufficient size and depth, whether it's Star Trek, Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, Marvel or DC Comics, etc... It comes down to people who draw a sense of superiority out of their mastery of the subject matter, and who like to wield that as a club over newcomers. This then becomes a barrier to entry, because a lot of those otherwise interested newcomers quickly become disillusioned with the material, and associate it with those arrogant experts.
-One never needed to learn a "secret handshake" to appreciate the Realms to begin with. Is there a lot of material out there? Sure. It has 20+ years of history, and a level of detail that no other published D&D campaign setting has. Is that a chore, to learn about the setting? No. If someone is picking up the campaign setting to begin with, they are showing a level of interest, and thus, learning is not seen as a chore, but as a fun activity.
Actually in me and my groups experience it actually is a detriment, theres to much detail and it feels like to much has all ready been done, one of the main reasons I moved onto Eberron. I like reading about the Realms but not Playing in it.
Actually in me and my groups experience it actually is a detriment, theres to much detail and it feels like to much has all ready been done, one of the main reasons I moved onto Eberron. I like reading about the Realms but not Playing in it.
-Okay then.
-Okay then.
Though I am in the middle of giving it another chance but I am more interested in 4orgotten Realms from the snippets I've seen from Swordmage.
Though I am in the middle of giving it another chance but I am more interested in 4orgotten Realms from the snippets I've seen from Swordmage.
-Good luck with that, then.
Presenting the... Silver Savage!?
It seems somebody at Hasbro has decided to make the Silver Surfer 'cooler' as well - they even turned his friggin' Surf Board into a Tower Shield!!!
Will the constant stream of retcons never end?
Though I am in the middle of giving it another chance but I am more interested in 4orgotten Realms from the snippets I've seen from Swordmage.
In other words, you are more interested in the Realms as presented by Rich Baker, who had always done a bang-up job with FR flavor.
Rich Baker, the author of that novel, had no part in creating the 4e FRCG - he got informed of the changes just like the rest of us.
So what you like is how Rich presents the Realms - which is with that 'same old style' he always used in 3e. You're liking the old flavor... NOT the new setting.
Just thought you should know....
Presenting the... Silver Savage!?
It seems somebody at Hasbro has decided to make the Silver Surfer 'cooler' as well - they even turned his friggin' Surf Board into a Tower Shield!!!
Will the constant stream of retcons never end?
That had nothing to do with Hasbro. That was a Marvel plotline. Hasbro just made a toy of it. And it wasn't a retcon. Just a plotline that the Silver Surfer got pulled into when he appeared in the Hulk comics for a time. He ended up on the same planet that the Hulk had been banished to by other Marvel heroes, was implanted with a slug to make him fight in the gladitorial arenas on that planet, and eventually had to fight the Hulk. They teamed up, found a way to break the mind control, and got away. The end. No retcon. No revamp. Nothing of the sort. It's no different than the plotline where Captain America becomes a werewolf, Spider-Man grows four extra arms, etc.
;)
They're is some familial resemblance - they both can stretch their body-parts into grotesque forms. :P
But at least Sue is REAL happy...... :embarrass
That had nothing to do with Hasbro. That was a Marvel plotline.
Thanks for the 'heads-up' about the Silver Savage thingy - I saw that in Walmart today and said "no way..."
Still, looking at those ugly superhero kiddy-toys does cause me further intestinal discomfort toward Hasbro in general.
People tend to forget that Reed Richards supposedly 'created' the suit with an alien machine, so that makes him Venom's Papa!
Not really. It was a machine that they found in the base that the Beyonder provided for them as a homebase, and the Hulk discovered one which could create new costumes. Spider-Man went in and got the symbiote from one of the machines, only to find out later that the machine he used wasn't the costume making machine.
Thanks for the 'heads-up' about the Silver Savage thingy - I saw that in Walmart today and said "no way..."
No problem. Though next time I suggest using Google before going on off a tangent. :P
Besides, I did Google it, and I only found one site that had any sort of info about it, and it didn't mention any of those things you said.
Google is for people who don't already know more then Google. :P
Says the guy who in this case knew less than Google. :P
Besides, I did Google it, and I only found one site that any sort of info about it, and it didn't mention any of those things you said.
Clearly your Google-Fu is weak. I googled Silver Savage and came up with this, with this link being first and foremost. You'll see a bit about the Silver Savage in his Silver Surfer wikipedia entry.
Says the guy who in this case knew less than Google. :P
Touche' ;)
Perhaps I was a bit TOO specific? I typed in "Silver Savage Planet Hulk" and got a list relating to that particular toy.
Your Google-Fu shall ever be weaker then mine, grasshopper.