There seem to be a lot of changes that aren't necessary for transition to a new edition. As for making the Realms "darker", most of the Realms that got the stovepipe are not the "light" Realms.
not that I'm saying it's unrealistic - IRL places have done similar things - but certainly a bad idea on the part of Waterdeep's rulers, from which no good will come. It's like Byzantium deciding they didn't need a fleet, because they'd rely on their treaty with Venice...
), Tethyr has problems, Evermeet got moved ("Thrown in the Briar Patch" really - save any crocodile tears on that change) &tc.But the main "Heartland" "light" realms aren't nearly as bad off as many of the Heartland "dark" realms as a result.
The cynic in me wonders if some of these places were so completely scoured, not long after having 3.5E Realms products published covering them, so that one would be *required* to buy new accessories to keep up with the published Realms. OtoH, some Realms (especially on the southern coast) were drowned so completely that nothing will be published to describe a replacement-Realm, because their aint none. So the cynical answer ("they did it just to sell new product, 'cause now your old stuff on Chessenta or Unther or Calimsham is pretty well worthless") doesn't apply.
Chessentia & part of Unther had been given good additional campaign hooks in the Dragons of Faerun book, the Kingdoms of the Shining Sea and Hlondeth given descriptions in the Serpent Kingdoms book, &tc. - those books aren't that old at all.
Indeed, the entire geography of the Realms has changed in many areas, invalidating old maps. IMO (and perhaps just IMO) the new geography is less cool (I found the coastline of the Shining Sea & of the Inner Sea, especially eastern Inner Sea, more interesting before than now).
Right now my plan is to just use my old Realms materiel, but that would mean ignoring the 4E Realms. It's not my preference to be a disgruntled fan, but...
...haven't game designers learned from past experience (Greyhawk Wars, Mystara's "Wrath of the Immortals") that massive changes are guaranteed to create a "Divided Base"?
The Realms' transition from 2E to 3E was much smoother, by comparison: They seem to have learned from the "Time of Troubles" saga.
Anyhow, I'm not just posting this to rant: I'm interested in the rationale/criterion used for determining not just to change the Realms, but which changes to make and why specific Realms were nuked.
Does anyone know what criterion was used to determine which Realms had a bridge dropped on them in 4E?
Anyhow, I'm not just posting this to rant: I'm interested in the rationale/criterion used for determining not just to change the Realms, but which changes to make and why specific Realms were nuked.
-To make it short, we don't know.
-One 'problem' that seems to have been addressed was dealing with areas that seemed to have very distinct flavor of their own, that didn't exactly lend well to the rest of the setting (ie, Maztica, Mulhorand, Unther). That is, these places had their own distinct flavor (Mesomaerica, Egypt and Babylonia, respectively) that was not very "Realmsian". So, the decision was made to axe these "unRealmsian" places. The problem is, the places they introduced to replace these realms are just as "unRealmsian" ('Abeir', Tymanther). So, concerning this, it's akin to fixing the leak that was fixed by a patch by removing the old patch, and replacing it with a new one.
1) Silverymoon - a "Light" Realm, but when and how did the ethnic cleansing take place that turned it from being a cosmopolitan city with a plurality human population into an elven city?
Elven Refugees. The other option is the Elves just outlived their human owners and bought up more property, it's Gentrification to drive out the round ears! Resist! In all actuality, they probably felt Alustriel's "Dream" was very Elvish.
In other words, missing the point. Just like Myth Drannor is now an Elvish City.
2) Calimshan - Mystra died twice before without releasing the Djinis. Why the decision to fry this area, one of the few "dark" realms with depth to it? (recalling that Gensai were intro'd into 3E FR without requiring the depopulation of any Realm).
I think it was meant to make it a more desert area. Calisham is still the same sweltering Hell-Hole that it's always been, it's just now ruled by Genies.
3) The re-nuking of Zhentil Keep. How does this make the world "dark-point-of-lights"-er?
My personal theory? Richard Baker and his Cohorts are 2E gamers. I fully expect them to find Xvim's entrapped body underneath Zhentil Keep and convert most of the Cyricists in the city to his worship.
4) Dropped a bridge on Chessenta - see also #2 above.
I think no one knew what to do with the Realm.
5) Dropped a bridge on Unther - see also #2 above.
6) Dropped a bridge on Muhlorand - ok, that was (arguably) a "light" realm, destroyed but replaced with a "light(ish)" Imaskar. High Imaskar's city-state couldn't have been located elsewhere?
Mulhorand and Unther were the same realm in 3E. But yes, they wanted to ditch the obvious Egyptian influence.
7) New Thay - I guess...since there are no Wizard schools/specialists - yet. But a lazy way to do it, since no doubt eventually there will be 4E arcane casters of various flavours.
I think it was more they wanted to make Thay into Mordor/The Realm of the Lich King. Oddly, it makes them seem like they're taking pages of notes from Blue Rose, which is the only other undead kingdom I can think of.
8) Vilhon Reach (Chondath, Hlondeth) - scowered, reason unknown.
9) Most of the Shinning Sea kingdoms - along with *3, much of the recently published "Serpent Kingdoms" invalidated as a result.
No clue on these, to be honest.
-One 'problem' that seems to have been addressed was dealing with areas that seemed to have very distinct flavor of their own, that didn't exactly lend well to the rest of the setting (ie, Maztica, Mulhorand, Unther).
A reasonable explaination, but these places had always been off the beaten path anyhow (well, except for Calimshan), and IMO did add some variety, even if it was of a "earth-based" sort. They may as well have nuked E-China (ooop, well, they do hint that something happened...but it's probably more of a "Warring States situation than a "we eliminated all the Shou" - after all, whatever changed Shou Lung actually introduced *more* E-China into the Realms proper, in the form of refugees and an entire city-state).
Elven Refugees. The other option is the Elves just outlived their human owners and bought up more property, it's Gentrification to drive out the round ears!
Could be; kind of an odd choice, but...
Resist! In all actuality, they probably felt Alustriel's "Dream" was very Elvish.
In other words, missing the point. Just like Myth Drannor is now an Elvish City.
Yeah, missing the point and probably even negating aspects of the "dream", but that happens IRL all the time, so it's a fair explaination. Not keen on the change from a game standpoint though (it being realistically plausible isn't enough to say it's a good change to the gameworld, but I guess that's a preference thing and I'm betting many will like the Elven City of Silverymoon).
I think it was meant to make it a more desert area. Calisham is still the same sweltering Hell-Hole that it's always been, it's just now ruled by Genies.
Well, it's not really - Calimport being depopulated, along with the other cities. Calimshan wasn't just desert, it was, oddly, urban too. And a lot of the details are now under sand, which IMO is unfortunate since it eliminates a lot of the variety from the place.
They made Shaar into a huge desert, and IMO that coulda been enough of additional desert lands, if the Realms really needed larger desert areas. But opinions may vary...
I do wonder what happened to Shoon VII, who seemed in the 3E Realms to be set up for a comeback-to-power, but the Djinification of the region and the lack of mention of him makes me wonder if I missed the plot-result of a book or something where he was killed off.
{Re. Zhentil Keep} My personal theory? Richard Baker and his Cohorts are 2E gamers. I fully expect them to find Xvim's entrapped body underneath Zhentil Keep and convert most of the Cyricists in the city to his worship.
Mighta made more sense to let it continue it's gradual rebuilding, then. I got the sense reading the FRCG that the 4E Zhentil Keep was essentially an abandoned ruin (so no Cyricists left to convert there), with all the Zhents being refugee mercs.
I think no one knew what to do with the Realm.
Well, that's just it: In one of the last 3E Realms books, they seemed to have decided, bringing in Tchazzar (and a rival for him), setting up some campaign hooks for future development.
Anyhow, I liked the geography of the Bay of Chessenta & Akanul (lake), and it may be a petty complaint, but the area looks geographically ugly now. :p
A reasonable explaination, but these places had always been off the beaten path anyhow (well, except for Calimshan), and IMO did add some variety, even if it was of a "earth-based" sort.
-You are preaching to the choir. I, personally, never had problems with these places, especially when the concept that they were settled by slaves taken from Earth is factored in.
Mighta made more sense to let it continue it's gradual rebuilding, then. I got the sense reading the FRCG that the 4E Zhentil Keep was essentially an abandoned ruin (so no Cyricists left to convert there), with all the Zhents being refugee mercs.
Is it an abandoned ruin or just a wretched hive of scum and villainy? Cause, the Ruins of Zhentil Keep was that before.
-I'm happy to say my hometown has never been knocked down and leveled completely.
Mine needs to be.
-Well...Good luck with that...?
I don't need luck, I need enriched uranium. :D
Calimport being depopulated, along with the other cities. Calimshan wasn't just desert, it was, oddly, urban too.
-Calimport, the capital city of Calimshan, was the largest and most populated city on all of Faerûn.
Indeed, the entire geography of the Realms has changed in many areas, invalidating old maps. IMO (and perhaps just IMO) the new geography is less cool (I found the coastline of the Shining Sea & of the Inner Sea, especially eastern Inner Sea, more interesting before than now).
I find the whole map in general less interesting than it was before. A lot of places I found intriguing are now just in ruins. Why would I like that better?
Anyway, I'm not sure if we'll ever get a detailed explanation for each change, but various reasons have been given in addition to making the setting fit the new rules better and 4E design principles better, such as making the current setting less detailed and therefore less "intimidating" to newer players (WotC's idea, not mine, I'm just reporting
).Calimshan wasn't just desert, it was, oddly, urban too.
Well, it's not that odd, when one considers how RW humans have flourished in desert regions for thousands of years.
Anyway, you're right, Calimshan wasn't only desert. And I don't care for what was done with it.-I'm happy to say my hometown has never been knocked down and leveled completely.
Really?
Really?
-Really really.
3) The re-nuking of Zhentil Keep. How does this make the world "dark-point-of-lights"-er?
Yeah, I don't care for this. What was the point of destroying Zhentil Keep... again? I liked Zhentil Keep, so this development was a disappointment.
-Really really.
What's the oldest building there? Just curious, don't mean to take the thread off topic.
What's the oldest building there? Just curious, don't mean to take the thread off topic.
-Hmm...The neighborhood that I grew up in, Gravesend, was one of the oldest neighborhoods in Brooklyn. It was a Dutch settlement, and the leader/mayor, was actually a woman (uncommon for the time), named Lady Deborah Moody. There are four streets in the area, called Gravesend Road North/South and Gravesend Neck Road East/West, that actually are where the walls of the settlement used to be. Lady Moody's House is still there, and is around 400 or so years old, Gravesend being first settled in the early 1600s by the Dutch.
-Ah, here, I looked on Wikipedia, and there's actually an article: Gravesend
-Well, that's the history lesson for today.
-To make it short, we don't know.
-One 'problem' that seems to have been addressed was dealing with areas that seemed to have very distinct flavor of their own, that didn't exactly lend well to the rest of the setting (ie, Maztica, Mulhorand, Unther). That is, these places had their own distinct flavor (Mesomaerica, Egypt and Babylonia, respectively) that was not very "Realmsian". So, the decision was made to axe these "unRealmsian" places. The problem is, the places they introduced to replace these realms are just as "unRealmsian" ('Abeir', Tymanther). So, concerning this, it's akin to fixing the leak that was fixed by a patch by removing the old patch, and replacing it with a new one.
Whether these places are "unRealmsian" or not may not be the point. Personally I think it's the blatant "It's Mesoamerica/Egypt/Mesopotamia/Greece in a fantasy setting" that they want to get rid of. The places that have replaced them have a distinctly more "fantasy" feel in most cases, although you could argue about High Imaskar. As someone who dislikes things that are close analogues for real-life settings, particularly when they are often based on cliches, I like the idea. I may not like all the things that have replaced them, but that's a different problem.
If you like your fantasy with pyramids and mummies, then you have Mulhorand. If pegasi and cyclops and hoplites are your thing, then there's Chessenta, for example (okay, the first two aren't mentioned in the lore, but you get the idea). Like Aztecs and Inca? Maztica's over there. And so on.
At the same time, they're a bit familiar (much like the old medieval europe style lands), so a person new to the area has something that they can grab on to understand. A fantasy world that is completely full on alien names and concepts can be quite hard to grasp and get into.
I got into Chessenta due to an interest in Ancient Greece, for example.
True, some were a bit lazy and simply cloned stuff willy-nilly. The balance between imitation and plagiarism is a difficult one. But they're not hard to fix and spin off into new directions, like Chessenta and the dragon kings development. Replacements like Akanul and Tymanther just give us alien, hard-to-grasp worlds instead.
Elven Refugees. The other option is the Elves just outlived their human owners and bought up more property, it's Gentrification to drive out the round ears! Resist! In all actuality, they probably felt Alustriel's "Dream" was very Elvish.
Hasn't the problem been that humans outbreed elves? And another question; where'd the refugees come from? Everaska and Myth Drannor are up and going.
Ironically, part of my problem is that I know quite a bit of history and therefore have certain expectations about something based on reality which the game doesn't always fulfil. I'd rather have something distinctly different than something which is just familiar enough that the differences are confusing.
-Calimport, the capital city of Calimshan, was the largest and most populated city on all of Faerûn.
Not just Calimport. The drow city Guallidurth beneath Calimshan had more than 80,000 drow and many more slaves. During the Night Wars they even captured 750,000 people from Calimshan.
Well, and now the city is just a shadow of its former self, just because Menzoberranzan has to be the most powerful drow city.
Whether these places are "unRealmsian" or not may not be the point. Personally I think it's the blatant "It's Mesoamerica/Egypt/Mesopotamia/Greece in a fantasy setting" that they want to get rid of.
-Personally, I don't find them to be blatant analogues of said places (with the exception of Maztica). Certainly, they have a great deal of influence from those places, and a culture that reflects that, but on the whole, Mulhorand, Unther and Chessenta used the Egyptian/Mesopotamian/Greek roots they had, and used those as a starting point to create Mulhorandi/Untheric/Chessentan culture.
-Hmm...The neighborhood that I grew up in, Gravesend, was one of the oldest neighborhoods in Brooklyn. It was a Dutch settlement, and the leader/mayor, was actually a woman (uncommon for the time), named Lady Deborah Moody. There are four streets in the area, called Gravesend Road North/South and Gravesend Neck Road East/West, that actually are where the walls of the settlement used to be. Lady Moody's House is still there, and is around 400 or so years old, Gravesend being first settled in the early 1600s by the Dutch.
-Ah, here, I looked on Wikipedia, and there's actually an article: Gravesend
-Well, that's the history lesson for today.
Well, thanks for the lesson!
Whether these places are "unRealmsian" or not may not be the point. Personally I think it's the blatant "It's Mesoamerica/Egypt/Mesopotamia/Greece in a fantasy setting" that they want to get rid of. The places that have replaced them have a distinctly more "fantasy" feel in most cases, although you could argue about High Imaskar.
Just out of curiosity, why?
Anyway, it's one thing that they wanted to ditch places that they felt were too real-worldish. However, those weren't the only places that got ditched--Halruaa was about as magical and fantastic as places get, and look what happened to it.
problem is, that whomever said it was kinda wrong, the skyships were created differently.....
on t he otherhand, atleast I can say i killed off a character of mine there during the blowing up the place.