As such I am looking to find a list of gods still alive in the forgotten realms that would be fairly hands off and good with the smiting. I know Tempus would work, but I'd prefer not to deal with people thinking I'm trying to cheeze or anything as I don't even want one of the channel divinity powers.
Ideally I would probably take Ao, but I'm not sure if he got killed.
(And please don't harp on me for not roleplaying, he follows the old gods just not one specifically in roleplay)
Thank you in advance for any help on this front.
It seems pretty clear that it's an incomplete list. Is there a better one in FRPG?
Or is there a list of dead ones?
I know Tyr and Mystra were supposed to have died, but am pretty unclear besides them.
It seems pretty clear that it's an incomplete list. Is there a better one in FRPG?
It's supposed to be complete. The designers said so on the FR boards. One of the stupid goals of 4e was to kill of as many gods as possible because obviously people complained about the FR having too many gods.
While a few of the missing names have since then be reintroduced it wasn't as deities (e.g. Nobanion and Eldath have been mentioned as a nature spirits)
It's supposed to be complete. The designers said so on the FR boards. One of the stupid goals of 4e was to kill of as many gods as possible because obviously people complained about the FR having too many gods.
While a few of the missing names have since then be reintroduced it wasn't as deities (e.g. Nobanion and Eldath have been mentioned as a nature spirits)
Yes, yes we did. There were more gods in FR than there were Pokemon in the first game, and many of them were redundant. How many gods of battle were there? How many gods of magic? And then you have the ludicrous racial pantheons ...
The FR pantheon is now of a manageable, reasonable size, as it should have always been.
---
It may be a complete list of the "greater gods". Is there a good list of the lesser gods/exarchs elsewhere?
Ideally I would probably take Ao, but I'm not sure if he got killed.
Ao is still alive, as far as I remember. But he never cared much about followers (because he never needed them), so the question stays the same, who gave his followers their powers?
Yes, yes we did. There were more gods in FR than there were Pokemon in the first game, and many of them were redundant. How many gods of battle were there? How many gods of magic? And then you have the ludicrous racial pantheons ...
The FR pantheon is now of a manageable, reasonable size, as it should have always been.
Who is we? I for instance liked it the old way and I am sure there are enough "we" who are thinking the same. It was more realistic, like it is in normal polytheistic religions. A god for everyone who needs one, for every race and nation with their own traditions and their own ways to believe and follow. Even the ancient greeks had more than one god for war and they were one culture. It was only the question if someone had enough fantasy to comprehend and think in different worlds and situations, to put oneself into different cultures and their thinking (but that's what's roleplaying is for, isn't it? To plunge yourself into another world full of interesting and lively environments not sterile hack and slay battleorgies.).
If someone could read, he had been able to tell the difference between the gods of different FR races and the pantheons. But if someone did not want to do that, he could have used the normal major ones. Now there is some kind of "oh it is all easier to have it in a light FR version". But then, why are they bringing them back, even if they are now exarch, spirits or whatsoever? Seems the old way wasn't that bad, as they wanted everyone to believe at the start of 4th Edition.
Who is we? I for instance liked it the old way and I am sure there are enough "we" who are thinking the same. It was more realistic, like it is in normal polytheistic religions. A god for everyone who needs one, for every race and nation with their own traditions. Even the ancient greeks had more than one god for war and they were one culture. It was only a question if someone had enough fantasy to comprehend and think in different worlds and situations, to put oneself into different cultures and their thinking. If someone could read, he had been able to tell the difference between the gods of different FR races and the pantheons. But if someone did not want to do that, he could have used the major normal ones. Now there is some kind of, oh it is all easier, but then why are they bringing them back, even if they are now exarch, spirits or whatsoever. Seems the old way wasn't that bad, as they wanted everyone to believe.
Completely agree.
I for instance liked it the old way and I am sure there are enough "we" who are thinking the same.
Yep. I agree with you on that part of yours.
How many gods of magic?
Well, uhm, one. Then there was a deity of shadow magic, of mages, of elven magic, and so on. ;)
FRCG lists the greater gods, then gives an example of one of the lesser gods (Umberlee) and further states exarchs are appropiate for clerics to follow as well.
---
It may be a complete list of the "greater gods". Is there a good list of the lesser gods/exarchs elsewhere?
There's a complete list of all deities, exarchs, primordials, and archdevils in the FRCG. Unfortunately, it's just an overview; there's no detailed information on the other 4e FR divine beings except the greater gods yet. So all you can do is getting yourself a copy of the various deity sourcebooks of previous editions. I don't even start trying to list them all, since LK will repeat anything that's already be said here in any case - sooner or later. :P
Yes, yes we did. There were more gods in FR than there were Pokemon in the first game, and many of them were redundant. How many gods of battle were there? How many gods of magic? And then you have the ludicrous racial pantheons ...
The FR pantheon is now of a manageable, reasonable size, as it should have always been.
Bel
Most of the old minor deities are now exarchs and the like. Others are primal spirits, or archfey, or elemental, or demon lords or something or another. Afew of those classifications have new additions or minor entities that take on new significance or prominence. Then you layer on the new fangled Primordials/Dawn Titans, even if they are in the background.
It's about as manageable as before, if not even messier.
Ao is still alive, as far as I remember. But he never cared much about followers (because he never needed them), so the question stays the same, who gave his followers their powers?
None of them were granted spells by Ao. The "false priests" of Ao [featured in the War of Tethyr novel], were actually Cyricists operating in disguise.
I am playing a human invoker with kind of a wrath of god/old testament thing going on (Covenant of Wrath), but he doesn't espouse religion so much as action against the greater planar evils (ex primordials), but I am required to have one (and only one).
As such I am looking to find a list of gods still alive in the forgotten realms that would be fairly hands off and good with the smiting. I know Tempus would work, but I'd prefer not to deal with people thinking I'm trying to cheeze or anything as I don't even want one of the channel divinity powers. [emphasis added]
Ideally I would probably take Ao, but I'm not sure if he got killed.
(And please don't harp on me for not roleplaying, he follows the old gods just not one specifically in roleplay)
Thank you in advance for any help on this front.
As Leiril and Old Sage point out, by RAW and convention Ao is non-involved to the extreme in that he doesn't even support followers...but of course it's your (and your DM's) game.
The entire list of greater gods, regular gods, and exarchs is in the FRCG. Only the greater gods, a single god, and a single exarch have a descriptive entry; others are simply named on the chart. (Oh, and there is an article which has some lore on Auril.) Any deity can be a smiter in the right context, and they can all be as hands off as you need them to be.
Having said that, the most typical (non-evil) smiter-types would probably (& arguably) be these ones:
- Amaunator
- Kelemvor
- Moradin
- Selune
- Tempus
- Torm
- Bahamut
- Clangeddin
- Hoar
- Obould
- Red Knight
- Shevaresh
- Uthgar
- Valkur
The oldest deities there are probably Amaunator, Moradin, Selune, and Tempus. The most hands off of those four are probably Selune and Tempus, but again that gets pretty subjective and IMHO it's more important the deity match your character. Then you just find a reason (if one is even needed) why they don't call or text that often. (Invokers kind of have that fluff already.)
Let us know what you decide.
As Leiril and Old Sage point out, by RAW and convention Ao is non-involved to the extreme in that he doesn't even support followers...but of course it's your (and your DM's) game.
Indeed. If I remember correctly, the FRPG goes as far as to say that when the occassional cult of Ao that does pop up, it usually disappears suddenly and completely. It almost seemed to imply that Ao may have a hand in such disappearances, as he does not desire such worship. I'm away from my books at the moment, and could be remembering incorrectly, but I believe I recall this.
Also, Cromag, why are you required to follow "one and only one" god? Is this a DM restriction? I recall the Invoker's PH2 fluff specifically suggesting that Invokers often follow the gods as a whole, rather than individual deities. For your concept-- that of opposing the enemies of the gods, such as the primordials-- this PH2-type Invoker would be perfect.
With Abeir's partial return, and the corresponding return of the Primordials, I'd think the time is right for just such a character to emerge.
the 4e list was to cul the list so to speak.
the LP series never happened and neither did the thing with Mask.
Ao is still alive, as far as I remember. But he never cared much about followers (because he never needed them), so the question stays the same, who gave his followers their powers?
Who is we? I for instance liked it the old way and I am sure there are enough "we" who are thinking the same. It was more realistic, like it is in normal polytheistic religions. A god for everyone who needs one, for every race and nation with their own traditions and their own ways to believe and follow. Even the ancient greeks had more than one god for war and they were one culture. It was only the question if someone had enough fantasy to comprehend and think in different worlds and situations, to put oneself into different cultures and their thinking (but that's what's roleplaying is for, isn't it? To plunge yourself into another world full of interesting and lively environments not sterile hack and slay battleorgies.).
If someone could read, he had been able to tell the difference between the gods of different FR races and the pantheons. But if someone did not want to do that, he could have used the normal major ones. Now there is some kind of "oh it is all easier to have it in a light FR version". But then, why are they bringing them back, even if they are now exarch, spirits or whatsoever? Seems the old way wasn't that bad, as they wanted everyone to believe at the start of 4th Edition.
The reason for so many gods in 2E was the spheres of influence. Depending on the level of the god, they couldn't grant spells above a certain level. I tried that with a lesser god, and the goal was to try and increase their faith to make them a greater god. I was shouted down because what I wanted to do was too power hungry. Gods couldn't just assume other portfolios, and mortals couldn't just add worshipers to the god and make them powerful. Then Lolth assumed Moander, Mask was brought down by Cyric when he shattered the sword that held his essence in it, Myrkul, Bane and Bhaal met gruesome ends, Iyachtu Xvim reclaimed Banes throne, and then Bane was reborn through his God-son. Baldurs Gate became the game to make you Bhaal's son. And all of sudden I wasn't so grandiose in my ideas.
Wow, much respect to everyone's feelings and opinions, but let's focus on the OP's issue, shall we??
As Leiril and Old Sage point out, by RAW and convention Ao is non-involved to the extreme in that he doesn't even support followers...but of course it's your (and your DM's) game.
The entire list of greater gods, regular gods, and exarchs is in the FRCG. Only the greater gods, a single god, and a single exarch have a descriptive entry; others are simply named on the chart. (Oh, and there is an article which has some lore on Auril.) Any deity can be a smiter in the right context, and they can all be as hands off as you need them to be.
Having said that, the most typical (non-evil) smiter-types would probably (& arguably) be these ones:
- Amaunator
- Kelemvor
- Moradin
- Selune
- Tempus
- Torm
- Bahamut
- Clangeddin
- Hoar
- Obould
- Red Knight
- Shevaresh
- Uthgar
- Valkur
The oldest deities there are probably Amaunator, Moradin, Selune, and Tempus. The most hands off of those four are probably Selune and Tempus, but again that gets pretty subjective and IMHO it's more important the deity match your character. Then you just find a reason (if one is even needed) why they don't call or text that often. (Invokers kind of have that fluff already.)
Let us know what you decide.
Alas, thou must strike Holy Hoar from thy list. For the Lord of Three Thunders hath been enchained by most foul Bane.
Also, Cromag, why are you required to follow "one and only one" god? Is this a DM restriction?
GM is running it as RPGA official those rules unfortunately require that of all divine characters. I assume that it was intended originally to keep people from choosing multiple channel divinity feats /shrug
Also thank you for the list Marius, I'll look into them as candidates that may fit. After looking through the FRCG it specifies for Ao that he doesn't have clerics, but that works out just fine (as I'm not playing a Cleric :D ) yet he still follows the strict rules that I am being forced to follow (single living non-evil god). He also has the added benefit of no religious group so I don't have to deal with a bunch of clerics and can act a lil' crazy.
Ao's intention to avoid this conflict is evident in his split of the earlier Abeir-Toril into two separate realms. Toril even had its share of Ao approved "friendly" abeiran primordials acting in concert with the gods.
The new century has renewed the chance for conflict from Abeir and a mortal agent invested in culling such could be needed to steer events the right way (so Ao can finally settle down for some millenia long rest). He wont like being mentioned though. At all. And any being acting under him should avoid unneccesary attention (this part might be difficult for your PC).
Watch out for any strange dissapearances of or memory lapses by the ones the PC has met. Ao does actively try to stop people from knowing he is there. Evangelising Ao's wrath might give your DM some dangerous hooks to hunt you're character with.
__
A god with a temper is always a good one to take when going smite-happy. Also rigidly lawful dieties can easily start putting on the hurt when rules are offended. So in your view of them, any dieties who are easily slighted can apply.
Being invested by team Bane is really not a bad choice for an invoker planning on joining an adventuring party. Banites use their smites a bit different but are very effective in enforcing a disciplined party. Beshaba is a real babe, but her smites are additionally below the belt and unpredictable. Loviatar is all about spreading the pain through repeated strikes, again and again.
Hoar's agents might have fallen a little bit further down the path to evil, but they should act in the same matter they used to. Upholding the eye for an eye principles will eventually lead them to fighting evil to with their own evil methods.
FRCG lists the greater gods, then gives an example of one of the lesser gods (Umberlee) and further states exarchs are appropiate for clerics to follow as well.
FRCG gives a list on pages 80-81. Anyone not on this list is no longer a current FR god and is either dead or at least no longer a god
How many gods of battle were there?
Well, there still six of them in 4e (Tempus, Bahgtru, Clangeddin, Garagos, Obould, The Red Knight). The even made a new one (Obould) just for 4e
Ao is still alive, as far as I remember. But he never cared much about followers (because he never needed them), so the question stays the same, who gave his followers their powers?
No one. Followers of Ao had no divine power (except for one cult that was later revealed to have been backed by Cyric)
It may be a complete list of the "greater gods". Is there a good list of the lesser gods/exarchs elsewhere?
If you turn a page you will see a list of all the currently recognized gods, the lesser gods, and their exarchs. It's still a reasonable list.
For deity, think of one your Invoker would 'ally with'. If you follow the (heriditary) theory that Shar is or used to be a Primordial of destruction, then Selune is a good choice.
Gomez
For deity, think of one your Invoker would 'ally with'. If you follow the (heriditary) theory that Shar is or used to be a Primordial of destruction, then Selune is a good choice.
Gomez
I thought Shar and Selune were sister goddesses that were born when Ao created the cosmos with them representing light and dark. They were oppositional forces, but both firmly on the divine side of the divine vs.primordial conflict.
Ao's intention to avoid this conflict is evident in his split of the earlier Abeir-Toril into two separate realms. Toril even had its share of Ao approved "friendly" abeiran primordials acting in concert with the gods.
The new century has renewed the chance for conflict from Abeir and a mortal agent invested in culling such could be needed to steer events the right way (so Ao can finally settle down for some millenia long rest). He wont like being mentioned though. At all. And any being acting under him should avoid unneccesary attention (this part might be difficult for your PC).
Watch out for any strange dissapearances of or memory lapses by the ones the PC has met. Ao does actively try to stop people from knowing he is there. Evangelising Ao's wrath might give your DM some dangerous hooks to hunt you're character with.
That would actually be pretty cool, especially if when someone asks who I followed I could tell them it would destroy their mind...and then it did :P
I don't plan on being an evangelist though, that's a Clerics job. I'm there to make sure things get done and let someone else do the 'smiles and cake' routine afterward.
A god with a temper is always a good one to take when going smite-happy. Also rigidly lawful dieties can easily start putting on the hurt when rules are offended. So in your view of them, any dieties who are easily slighted can apply.
Being invested by team Bane is really not a bad choice for an invoker planning on joining an adventuring party.
Only issue with super lawful easily slighted gods is they might make the GM want to pick up the god-hammer when I don't follow how he interprets my character should be. Basically the same reason very few people played paladins in 3.5. Invokers even have the not so nice benefit that they must be the same alignment as their god...Which means they are the one and only class in the game that is screwed if their alignment shifts.
-Bane is actually pretty cool, unfortunately since we're doing the RPGA LFR rules I can't have a PC following an 'evil' god (or having your PCs' alignment be evil)
I thought Shar and Selune were sister goddesses that were born when Ao created the cosmos with them representing light and dark. They were oppositional forces, but both firmly on the divine side of the divine vs.primordial conflict.
Afaik, the word "firmly" may be the issue here. The lore does tell of Selune and Shar as the initial sister goddesses of FR, but with 4e's reconceptions of various 3e deities into primordials, primal spirits, archfey, and what not (e.g., Akadi, Grumbar, Nobanion, Eldath, etc.) theories about alternate origins and natures have arisen.
The primordials are generally thought of as wanting to destroy the world. Shar longs for a return of the universe to primal darkness and oblivion. Since that goal seems at odds with the deities' (even evil ones) vying for influence over existence (rather than non-existence), many speculate that she is a somehow-deified primordial.
On the other hand, one might argue that the primordials only want to destroy the stability of the world. From their perspective as cosmic creators and tinkerers, the philosophies and principles cultivated by the deities are uselessly abstract and impose restrictions on their ability to create and recreate the world at whim. If Shar wants to end even this, then perhaps she is appropriate as a deity through and through. (Plus, would becoming a deity be considered striving for better in life? That'd be against Sharran doctrine! :P ...At least for mortals.)
For deity, think of one your Invoker would 'ally with'. If you follow the (heriditary) theory that Shar is or used to be a Primordial of destruction, then Selune is a good choice.
Even regardless of primordial stuff, I would agree that Selune is an optimal choice. She is about as ancient as you can get, her church(es) encourages self-reliance over adherence to doctrine, and she is well known in many incarnations as a fierce warrior.
You also mentioned fighting planar evils. On that spectrum, you might want to consider the following deities for a second look:
- Selune (another reason she fits)
- Silvanus (when said evils encroach on nature)
- Torm (I'm thinking as part of the former Triad)
- Ilmater (same as Torm)
- Waukeen (in light of fiendish deals gone awry)
After all, primordials changing in other beings is already established: most demon lords used to be primordials.
Even if the theory is false, it is one you can use to tie your invoker to a goddess, and name another your nemesis.
Belief hardly ever is based on fact...
Gomez
Now that would make a good heresy! :DThere's a complete list of all deities, exarchs, primordials, and archdevils in the FRCG. Unfortunately, it's just an overview; there's no detailed information on the other 4e FR divine beings except the greater gods yet. So all you can do is getting yourself a copy of the various deity sourcebooks of previous editions. I don't even start trying to list them all, since LK will repeat anything that's already be said here in any case - sooner or later. :P
-Faiths and Avatars, Powers and Pantheons and Demihuman Deities. There's only three. Hell, if it were up to me, each deity would have a 200+/- sourcebook.
-Faiths and Avatars, Powers and Pantheons and Demihuman Deities. There's only three. Hell, if it were up to me, each deity would have a 200+/- sourcebook.
I can honestly say I only heard of the last one... Granted, I have Faiths and Pantheons right next to me, so... Yeah. I didn't see that make the list ether come to think of it... You haven't been missing sleep again have you, LK?
-We were only talking about the 2e books. I think.
Ah, okay then. Sorry, after a while my eyes just kinda glaze over.
Yes, yes we did. There were more gods in FR than there were Pokemon in the first game, and many of them were redundant. How many gods of battle were there? How many gods of magic? And then you have the ludicrous racial pantheons ...
The FR pantheon is now of a manageable, reasonable size, as it should have always been.
Burn the heretic!!!
I'm pretty sure that the majority never asked for this. For those people who can't stand a detailed setting like the FR once were the core setting of 4E is perfect. No need to ruin the FR for the rest.@ Cromag
I think humans have the most gods, so maybe you should choose your alignment first and then look which gods are available. Unfortunately they folded the law-chaos-axis on the good-evil-axis, so being chaotic good and getting away with a few grey actions isn't an option anymore. If you want to be lawful good I would say Red Knight (I'll never understand why she shifted from lawful neutral, but she's there now) or Torm would be fine. If iyou want to be good I would choose Selûne, for unaligned I would choose Tempus.