so cyric kills mystra with shars help but he at least partially suceeds in claiming it... hence the spellplague; when a mad god becomes the guardian of magic, what else one can expect...
shar tries her luck but fails miserably... sune, amanauthor and tyr then confine cyric to the supreme throne to quell the spellplague and Ao allows this not as a punishment for the death of mystra but to protect reality from unraveling
ok here is my reasoning; shar wants mystra dead but doesnt want to risk a fight with her, she thinks since cyric wouldnt be able to control the weave, she can take it fom him when he tries to take control.
so cyric kills mystra with shars help but he at least partially suceeds in claiming it... hence the spellplague; when a mad god becomes the guardian of magic, what else one can expect...
shar tries her luck but fails miserably... sune, amanauthor and tyr then confine cyric to the supreme throne to quell the spellplague and Ao allows this not as a punishment for the death of mystra but to protect reality from unraveling
It's been stated by the Realms designers that there is no new god or goddess of magic because Shar has prevented the rise of a new one. And Shar can't claim the portfolio herself because the original life-energy of Mystryl was only partially hers to begin with. So there isn't any god of magic. Except for Corellon, who is technically more the god of (imported) Elvish high magic.
everybody Takes Cyric for being mad, but he has told so many lies, and since he killed the lady of illusions,he has woven illusions so that; maybe the only one he killed was savras and imprisoned the original life force of Mystra and sent it into the palguelands that was once known as Halruaa.
maybe the Mad God isnt Mad as much as people think he is, and saw through the lies Shar told him.
But Cyric could certainly claim to be the god of magic under several theories:
1) Right of conquest
2) Survivorship
3) Natural enlargement of his existing portfolio
4) By simply claiming the abandoned portfolio(s) (up for grabs, right?)
5) Taking custody of a portfolio from a god who was abusing the portfolio
6) Reversion by escheat
Granted, several of these theories are tenuous and barely colorable, but if he had a good attorney...
The fact that he was tried and found guilty of deicide (or whatever they found him guilty of) may complicate his claim, but I think it would be interesting if he tried to assert them.
Although, with the Spellplague and the destruction of Dweomerheart, there may not actually be any portfolio of magic left to claim. Not sure that any god could claim it even should they want to. Time will tell...
Although, if he really wanted to be god of magic, Cyric should just get his worshipers to start revering him as such. Then, if the metaphysics of the Realms still work the same way, the portfolio should just inhere in him when he reached a certain critical mass of belief.
at the creation of Mystryl, at the tearing of her own divinity and hurlyinh it at the evil goth bimbo goddess Shar; Selune stole the dark magic portfolio and it merged with the light magic portfolion and created the goddess of magic.
the Death of Mystra/Midnight split up the portfolio back to Selune and Shar the evil queen of Goth bimbos everywhere.
the Mistress of Illusion rose and fell during the Weave era, and thus Cyric only has Lies, the Illusionary portfolio lost someof its potentcy imo; thus all it is now, are natural illusions, lies, mirages etc...
even with the 4e version of spells long ago.
Cyric the lord of Lies and Illusions make him the god of magic, it does not.
it just means he can "murder"with mirages... which are nothing more than lies of that effect the eyes.
Selune and Shar are the reigning goddess of Magic.
Until MYstra 1.0 or Mystryl returns, or a new deity of magic is seated.
til then.
All Hail and Praise Lord Cyric THE GOD OF MAGIC!;)
Simple, it's the Necromunger way: You keep what you kill.
We have discussed on multiple occasions that Mystra is imprisoned in the Stick Lord Cyric smacked her with...
18DELTA(CHOSEN OF LORD CYRIC)
Cyric was definitely a god of magic and may still be. He had the portfolio of Illusion, which was a school of magic, though I've no clue as to whether it still is or whether he still has the portfolio.
I disagree with this belief on a few levels. Illusion, as a portfolio, isn't and never was simply a school of magic. Illusion involves deception, misdirection, and distortion of the senses, and does not inherently imply magic. The magic school of illusion involved manipulation of the Weave in order to accomplish illusion, but illusion itself is bigger than magic and does not fall under the proviso of magic. Cyric therefore would never have been a god of magic proper.
But Cyric could certainly claim to be the god of magic under several theories:
1) Right of conquest
2) Survivorship
3) Natural enlargement of his existing portfolio
4) By simply claiming the abandoned portfolio(s) (up for grabs, right?)
5) Taking custody of a portfolio from a god who was abusing the portfolio
6) Reversion by escheat
None of these arguments really hold water, because:
1) Cyric did not absorb her power. Rather, it was dispersed through the planes and Faerun.
2) Although Cyric survived the destruction of Dweomerheart, this isn't a case for gaining a portfolio. Shar was there, as were a few mortals, why not them?
3) Certainly he wants this, but again it's not a compelling argument. Wanting is not the same as getting.
4) Most importantly, the portfolio of magic is NOT "up for grabs" but rather is being (halfway) blocked by Shar. Her original half of Mystra's energies did not return to her, as evidenced by the destruction of the shadow weave along with the weave. Although Shar could lay claim to any residual energies related to her portion, she cannot claim all of it (and the portfolio of Mystryl-Mystra) because it no longer exists as it was. Think of it this way: no one can claim the full portfolio of Tyche, of all forms of luck, because she no longer exists.
5) Nothing suggests that Mystra was abusing her portfolio at the time of her death.
6) Reversion of any portfolio would go to Ao for possible reassignment, not to Cyric. Cyric was never Mystra's heir, nor can he be considered the "state." If anything, this particular argument would favor the surviving (former) Chosen of Mystra.
Although, if he really wanted to be god of magic, Cyric should just get his worshipers to start revering him as such. Then, if the metaphysics of the Realms still work the same way, the portfolio should just inhere in him when he reached a certain critical mass of belief.
Although I agree that this sort of thing is possible for free-floating, unclaimed portfolios, it doesn't apply in this case. For one, the portfolio no longer exists. For another, Shar has been said - by the designers - to be blocking the rise of a new deity of magic. Finally, Mystra's energies were not absorbed by anyone but rather were released in a massive explosion which destroyed her own plane entirely and had devastating effects on all the other planes and on Faerun. All of her energy is so dispersed now that it would be impossible to mop-up all of the bits of plague energy, harvest all the frayed remains of the Weave (both types), and recover all of the spellscars back into a central focus. The goddess of magic and her portfolio are both unrecoverable and gone forever.
On another note, I suspect that Cyric was not imprisoned because of his attempt to murder Mystra, or his success in doing so. It's in his own portfolio and his nature to try this. Instead, I think he was imprisoned for accidentally destroying a portfolio. If Cyric had actually claimed it, it would have been mean and evil and awful, but it would have been "acceptable" as far as deific power is concerned for the Realms. Ultimately, it's what happens in the Realms: some gods kill others and take their power and portfolios. Sometimes evil wins, sometimes good wins. But in this case, Cyric's own stupidity resulted in the destruction of one of the most powerful portfolios -and- a massive source of deific energy, both of which can never be recovered. On the level of deities, that's a huge crime. It's not that he murdered her or tried to take her power from her. If he had actually gained her power and portfolio, the other gods would not have acted in concert to punish him for a "crime" in the same sense that we view murder as a crime.
Illusion involves deception, misdirection, and distortion of the senses, and does not inherently imply magic. The magic school of illusion involved manipulation of the Weave in order to accomplish illusion, but illusion itself is bigger than magic and does not fall under the proviso of magic. Cyric therefore would never have been a god of magic proper.
While I follow your reasoning, I don't think that is how the designers of the world saw it. Leira (prior to her death) had a dominion in the plane of Dweomerheart, so that would seem to support her being classified as a god of magic. Illusion is one of the 8 schools of magic, along with Necromancy, which was claimed by Velsharoon, who was also a god of magic and had a dominion in the plane of Dweomerheart. Not to mention Divination, a school claimed by Savras, who also had a dominion in Dweomerheart. It is clear that the gods of individual schools were gods of magic. Although, I suppose you could split hairs.
1) Cyric did not absorb her power.
Are you sure? Maybe that is the real reason he was imprisoned... But whether he did or didn't, the theory was simply that he could assert a claim on her portfolio by "right of conquest" because he killed her and could make a case that her portfolios were his rightful spoils.
Shar was there, as were a few mortals, why not them?
The right of survivorship is the idea that when people hold property jointly, say, like a married couple owns a house, then the one who survives the other(s) then becomes the sole owner of the whole thing (including all the rooms). In this case, since Cyric could claim to be the only remaining god of "magic" then he might try to assert a claim over all the attendant portfolios of magic as the only surviving member of the class. As for why not Shar? Well, nothing prevents her or anyone else from trying to claim it also. It's probably less dependent on any sort of divine rules or legal system, than trying to win the hearts and minds and beliefs of a critical mass of worshipers.
it's not a compelling argument
Really? You weren't compelled? Well, I think he has at least a good case to claim Necromancy; that would totally be a natural enlargement of his portfolio, as he used to be a god of death. And if he could claim 2 magic portfolios, why not 3 or 8? There's an argument to be made there. Remember, there is no one left to turn to, so people who want their prayers regarding magic fulfilled might pray to him as there simply is no one else left to petition. It strikes me as a perfectly plausible progression for him to claim the other portfolios as a natural enlargement of his own portfolio.
the portfolio of magic is NOT "up for grabs" but rather is being (halfway) blocked by Shar.
Your source for this? Or are you just speculating? Anyway, she can attempt to block, but Cyric is competent and she might not be successful in blocking him.
Although Shar could lay claim to any residual energies related to her portion, she cannot claim all of it (and the portfolio of Mystryl-Mystra) because it no longer exists as it was.
I see no reason why Shar could not make whatever claims she likes. The only problem she might run into is that she wasn't an open, or "official" god of magic. She held her portfolio over the Shadow Weave secretly, since few people ever knew of this, and any Shadow Weave users that existed probably exploded or went insane during the Spellplague; she may lack the critical mass of believers necessary to press her claim. But no reason she can't try--if she were so inclined.
no one can claim the full portfolio of Tyche, of all forms of luck, because she no longer exists.
Sure they could! He would just have to fight it out with Tymora and Beshaba... oh, and foster a critical mass of believers to empower him. There's precedent for this, I'm thinking Tempus v. Garagos. Also Kiputytto v. Talona.
Nothing suggests that Mystra was abusing her portfolio at the time of her death.
It's not important that she was or wasn't, but it could be the reason given by Cyric to justify his actions. Plus she's dead, so he gets to tell the tale. He is the lord of LIES remember? I've no doubt at all he could make a persuasive case, and it might even be half true.
Reversion of any portfolio would go to Ao for possible reassignment, not to Cyric.
You're sure of that are you? I haven't read the Tablets of Ao, so I don't know the peculiarities of divine law, but I'm sure Cyric would be an expert. While in the modern day "escheat" usually means to the state, in medieval times it meant that unclaimed property in the absence of an heir reverted to the immediately superior feudal lord. Now, while one may argue that Cyric is not Mystra's immediately superior feudal lord, I wouldn't put it beyond him to try and finagle a claim to being so. I could imagine him arguing arcane interpretations of clauses from the tablets or other divine precedents. I don't know if he would be successful, but he is a smart fellow and might be able to work an angle.
The goddess of magic and her portfolio are both unrecoverable and gone forever.
Pish tosh! You don't know that! In a magic world anything is possible. I think one way for it to happen is for people to start believing that some god IS the god of magic and bingo, he would be. I think epic quests could maybe gather up her magic or reconstruct the weave or reestablish the portfolio. While there might be "meta" reasons for it not to happen (like the designers don't want it to currently) that doesn't mean that winds coud not change, or that some writer might pitch an excellent story that could change their minds. A good writer or designer could swing it, so it can't be counted out, though I agree it is not LIKELY at this time.
although jorunhasts i found jorunhasts 'theories' really apealing, i still think that the whole spellplague thing and mad god as the god of magic really fits... and spellplague is now much better contained and much less virulent is because cyric is confinedbut that's me
thanks again for the input..www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/d...
Bottom line: Mystra was destroyed, her power was not absorbed by anyone, and Cyric (yet again, and true to his character) remains an idiot. Cyric is not sharp, bright, intelligent, or anything of the sort and he never has been. Seriously, he even flubbed up and read his own book of lies. That's not a bright guy! At best he is a poor schemer, at worst he is an unwitting stooge. The gods imprisoned him because he is an accident waiting to happen, much like a bull in a China shop, not because they consider him competent as a deity.
I don't particularly like all of what's happened, mind you. But it's how the designers have clearly spelled it out for 4E. It's not a theory, except for the part about how I think Shar is managing to suppress the rise of a new deity of magic and the part about why I think Cyric was imprisoned.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nk_zpMory-0
Faiths & Pantheons lists Cyric with a 40 intelligence, and a wisdom of 24. He's a pretty smart! Technically that's a lot smarter than you, and you seem like a pretty bright guy. He may have appeared to make unwise choices, but he is certainly not dumb. He is clever in a very scary way. At the time he read the Book of Lies, he was operating under a mental disability: he was insane. Supposedly he is cured now, though perhaps that is yet to be seen. However, we don't know for sure that Cyric didn't just "pretend" to be tricked into reading the Book of Lies... now that's one to think about! Reading the Book of Lies might have been his plan all along...
I totally agree with you that the designers have set a course for 4E that doesn't involve a new god of magic.
However, that has nothing to do with what options lay open for Cyric or what COULD happen with the portfolio of magic. He's probably playing the long game anyway. He has a looooong time to sit and stew about things and work on his plans.
Shar is trying to suppress a new god of magic from ascending. But that doesn't mean she will be successful. One may still yet ascend despite her best efforts.
Hey, in the magic future where anything can happen, Lolth could be the new deity of magic. Or Garagos, for that matter. I'm only commenting on what's known here and now. *shrug*
Faiths & Pantheons lists Cyric with a 40 intelligence, and a wisdom of 24. He's a pretty smart! Technically that's a lot smarter than you, and you seem like a pretty bright guy. He may have appeared to make unwise choices, but he is certainly not dumb. He is clever in a very scary way. At the time he read the Book of Lies, he was operating under a mental disability: he was insane. Supposedly he is cured now, though perhaps that is yet to be seen. However, we don't know for sure that Cyric didn't just "pretend" to be tricked into reading the Book of Lies... now that's one to think about! Reading the Book of Lies might have been his plan all along...
If you've read the various books that star Cyric in one way or another, it's completely obvious that the "40 intelligence" in F&P is a typo. From the way he is written, I am in fact a lot smarter than Cyric. But that personal dig at me aside, if Cyric acts like he should be on the short bus... if he walks like he should be on the short bus... if he's wearing that padded helmet like certain kids on the short bus, then he should in fact ride that short bus and just own it. He's not clever, either. He's contrived and wears plot armor, and he's a completely unworthy successor to Bhaal. Given that Bane has recovered his portfolio and power, and that Kelemvor took over the responsibilities that Cyric stole from Myrkul, it seems far more likely that Cyric will lose both Bhaal's and Leira's portfolios in the future rather than gaining any additional power.
However, that has nothing to do with what options lay open for Cyric or what COULD happen with the portfolio of magic. He's probably playing the long game anyway. He has a looooong time to sit and stew about things and work on his plans.
Actually, one might say that he's essentially been put in a home for the mentally incompetent, because the poor guy is so disabled that he's dangerous to himself as well as others. And others who are smart, like Shar, can't as readily trick him into being an unwitting stooge again.
As the god of illusion, perhaps he's really effective at creating the illusion that he's smart. He's certainly convinced some people, despite massive evidence to the contrary. Fail that save roll, and you too might think Cyric is a smartie!
Cyric isn't even remotely the most likely to have a claim to the portfolio of magic. If we're going to argue about the Gods' stats as basis for things relating to them, there's exactly three gods left in FR with an 'official' association with magic, via having the Arcana domain: Corellon Larethian, Selune, and Sseth. Sseth seems unlikely; Selune or Corellon would both be more likely, and Corellon has a long association with elven magic and in 4e is noted as the more general of the two.
No idea in 4E, though it doesn't seem to have changed much, but assuming that if we aren't told otherwise that the stats from 3E's Deities and Demigods apply to FR gods not given stats in Faiths in Pantheons, Corellon had more Divine Ranks than Shar and assuming that he's held that advantage, he could potentially overpower her blocking attempts if he wanted to.
Claiming it would also fit under your idea of a god claiming it as 'natural extension'. Corellon was always a god of magic. Particularly Elven magic, though also magic in general since he's a multi-spheric interloper deity, but in 4E era the idea of the racial pantheon is dead and all gods have worshippers of all races now, even if they still retain their associations with the demihuman races. He's been the god of magic for the elves, he's now getting non-elven worshippers turning to him as one of the few remaining deities associated with magic, it makes sense for him to claim the general portfolio as well, in order to better serve his followers.
Same with 'getting people to worship you as god of whatever'. Not hard, elves/eladrin already worship him in that respect. Arcanists familar with him, or even having heard of him in passing, might very well be drawn to him as a god and a religion capable of understanding the needs and soul of the arcanist.
By the present day we're presented with 'general' formerly-racial gods who seem to be well-established among humans and races other than their original association.
But see, Corellon is smart, and he's been around for a while. He's not going to directly claim it, because that just creates problems and conflicts. He's just going to let the worship come to him. The priests can go preach among the other races, spread his doctrines among people and garner new faithful, and he can just kind of slide into it unofficially without actually having to take it and deal with the stupidity and divine death that seems to generally go along with it.
Ooh, there's an idea. Corellon, as much as the idea of working with her galls him, is helping Shar suppress the rise of a new god of magic. He knows how much trouble it usually causes and how the gods of magic tend to end up dead, since he's seen three of them eat it in the milennia since his attention was brought to Toril by elves who carried his worship there from other worlds, and he's not going to let anything like the Spellplague happen again. No more god of magic, no more weave. He'll care for the arcanists who come to him, but he won't do it officially as the official God of Magic and he won't allow an official god to arise either. He hates that he's working with an evil god in this respect, but views it as a necessary evil that must be done for the good of Toril. (Perhaps, since it's somewhat implied that he absorbed the essence of his daughter at the end of the Lady Penitent trilogy, and her absorption of Vhaeraun would have come along with that, he's taken on a bit of Vhaeraun's sneaky bastardness that's made him a bit more willing to do such things.)
Cyrics intelligence is high, he just doesn't know how to handle some aspects of divinity because of his fledgeling divine status. After all he did manage to create a large worshippers base on fearun, as evidenced by Amn and Calimshans growing Cyricist cults. His portfolio of Murder and Strife are powerfull in themselves to generate huge amounts of worship across Fearun. His Illusion portfolio holds a certain mystery for Fearun as there must have been a lot of confusion about where Leira went. Add Cyrics mad period and the spellplagues effects and you see how the megalomanic ideas of the Prince of Lies instill fear into the general public of Fearun. No sane inhabitant of Fearun would dismiss the evil of the church of Cyric as stupid or easily dealt with.
If you've read the various books that star Cyric in one way or another, it's completely obvious that the "40 intelligence" in F&P is a typo. From the way he is written, I am in fact a lot smarter than Cyric. But that personal dig at me aside, if Cyric acts like he should be on the short bus... if he walks like he should be on the short bus... if he's wearing that padded helmet like certain kids on the short bus, then he should in fact ride that short bus and just own it. He's not clever, either. He's contrived and wears plot armor, and he's a completely unworthy successor to Bhaal. Given that Bane has recovered his portfolio and power, and that Kelemvor took over the responsibilities that Cyric stole from Myrkul, it seems far more likely that Cyric will lose both Bhaal's and Leira's portfolios in the future rather than gaining any additional power.
Personaly I don't think he actualy killed Leira...he just think he did. All this a illusion to feeds his ego. Of course they won't go with that. But it would be a very good twist.
ok here is my reasoning; shar wants mystra dead but doesnt want to risk a fight with her, she thinks since cyric wouldnt be able to control the weave, she can take it fom him when he tries to take control.
so cyric kills mystra with shars help but he at least partially suceeds in claiming it... hence the spellplague; when a mad god becomes the guardian of magic, what else one can expect...
shar tries her luck but fails miserably... sune, amanauthor and tyr then confine cyric to the supreme throne to quell the spellplague and Ao allows this not as a punishment for the death of mystra but to protect reality from unraveling [emphasis added]
I like that bolded part. To clarify: You're saying instead of Cyric killing Mystra and then no one being able to take control of magic...thus the Spellplague, Cyric killed Mystra and DID take "control" of magic and the result is the Spellplague. So really you mean he DID succeed, it's just that the resulting "success" equals magical insanity, yes? I think that's a pretty cool take on things for a campaign.
If you mean he "partially" succeeded, well, I definitely don't think that would give him any more claim than anyone else. In that interpretation I'd just say he may have temporarily succeeded at taking the reins of magic, but he totally failed in maintaining any hold over it whatsoever.
Speaking of such claims, I think Selune is definitely intended as the implied 4e deity of "magic," so to speak. (Really I don't think the devs intend for the portfolio to remain exactly the same.) The old lore always had Mystra born of Selune, and now that power has returned to its original owner. Sorry, Corellon! Looks like you're the new Azuth instead!
Tough when one of your girlfriends is the boss, eh? (i.e., Sehanine).On to Leira...When a deity claims a portfolio it usually gets rolled up into their other aspects. Cyric claimed Leira's portfolio but clearly emphasizes lies and deception, with a heaping portion of malice mixed in. In that sense, illusion magic stuck around as an extension of that, but I think it's a stretch to say he became the new patron of all illusionists in the same sense that Leira was. So despite having a certain sway over illusion magic, his claims to the larger portfolio of Magic are still tenuous and tangential imho.
Personaly I don't think he actualy killed Leira...he just think he did. All this a illusion to feeds his ego. Of course they won't go with that. But it would be a very good twist.
Of course he didn't kill her. Leira is still with us! Cyric's okay for what he is, but he's no Leira. In fact, in my Realms I think I'd have Selune back to full power (but without the Arcana domain) and the portfolio of Magic (modified) in Leira's hands. Leira is the true Lady of Mysteries!
Of course he didn't kill her. Leira is still with us! Cyric's okay for what he is, but he's no Leira. In fact, in my Realms I think I'd have Selune back to full power (but without the Arcana domain) and the portfolio of Magic (modified) in Leira's hands. Leira is the true Lady of Mysteries!
My take on it was slightly different. Though I like yours.
Leira was suppose to write a big book of lies...to annoy Denier. She did just that...she just used Cyric as a patsy. How much better for a goodees of Illusions and Lies is that. That is how it is suppose to be done...Cyric is a joke as those things...
By 5th ed FR if Cyric is alive I want to nominate him to a new portfolio...The God of Patsies. ;)
Who else in FR history has done such damage to the pantheon as he? While it could be true that he was mad, you can't deny the claim of his genius in creating plans to overtake the pantheon. The only reason why he hasn't succeeded in taking the pantheon is that all gods are against him....thus, making him one the most dangerous beings in FR ever.
He kind of reminds me of the Joker in Batman.
That being said, I believe that somone else will rise up and take Cyrics portfolio because it includes lies right? and almost everyone lies...
' To clarify: You're saying instead of Cyric killing Mystra and then no one being able to take control of magic...thus the Spellplague, Cyric killed Mystra and DID take "control" of magic and the result is the Spellplague. So really you mean he DID succeed, it's just that the resulting "success" equals magical insanity, yes? I think that's a pretty cool take on things for a campaign.'
yes thats what i ment... magic went insane at least for a time because cyric did ascend to the status of the guardian of the weave... the weave started mirroring him, hence spellplague... after his imprisonment spellplague abated somewhat as his influence was lessened...
of course this was all speculation and i wanted to hear what others more knowledgable would think... thanks everyone for the input
It's the Author's fault Lord Cyric was written out like an Idiot.
18DELTA(LORD CYRIC IS THE GREATEST EVAR!!!!)
Well, Cyric used to number amongst the deities of magic since his murder of Leira.
I disagree with this belief on a few levels. Illusion, as a portfolio, isn't and never was simply a school of magic.
It is. Leira was an underling of Mystra and Azuth just like Savras and Velsharoon. She was a little lazy with her reports to her Azuth, but she was numbered among them nonetheless.
On another note, I suspect that Cyric was not imprisoned because of his attempt to murder Mystra, or his success in doing so. It's in his own portfolio and his nature to try this. Instead, I think he was imprisoned for accidentally destroying a portfolio. If Cyric had actually claimed it, it would have been mean and evil and awful, but it would have been "acceptable" as far as deific power is concerned for the Realms. Ultimately, it's what happens in the Realms: some gods kill others and take their power and portfolios. Sometimes evil wins, sometimes good wins. But in this case, Cyric's own stupidity resulted in the destruction of one of the most powerful portfolios -and- a massive source of deific energy, both of which can never be recovered. On the level of deities, that's a huge crime. It's not that he murdered her or tried to take her power from her. If he had actually gained her power and portfolio, the other gods would not have acted in concert to punish him for a "crime" in the same sense that we view murder as a crime.
Cyric was imprisoned just because they could. There was no charge or judgment against him. The three saw an opportunity and took advantage of it. There was no divine law or trial as justification.
I fancy the theory that the older deities used their advanced knowledge about planar matters to seal Cyric in through a clever trick, not because of raw power. And they now live in constant feat that Cyric figures out how their lock works and breaks out to take his vengeance (strengthened by his murder of Mystra and brilliant plot with Helm and Tyr)
If you've read the various books that star Cyric in one way or another, it's completely obvious that the "40 intelligence" in F&P is a typo. From the way he is written, I am in fact a lot smarter than Cyric. But that personal dig at me aside, if Cyric acts like he should be on the short bus... if he walks like he should be on the short bus... if he's wearing that padded helmet like certain kids on the short bus, then he should in fact ride that short bus and just own it. He's not clever, either.
Well, Karsus was running around and dressing like the village idiot too. He just got away with it because he was also the most brilliant and most powerfull arcanist.
And judging from behavior shown in novels, Bane should be a crying 5 years old, given how he
He's certainly convinced some people, despite massive evidence to the contrary.
Yet he actually has quite an impressive list of successes, unlike Bane and Bhaal who only heaped failure upon failure since their ascension (well, Bane at least has some minor successes, yet nothing that comes even close to what Cyric did to promote his portfolios)
Speaking of such claims, I think Selune is definitely intended as the implied 4e deity of "magic," so to speak. (Really I don't think the devs intend for the portfolio to remain exactly the same.) The old lore always had Mystra born of Selune, and now that power has returned to its original owner. Sorry, Corellon! Looks like you're the new Azuth instead!
I'm not seeing that at all, so they're doing an incredibly lousy job of implying it if so. Corellon has had much more implication in that respect, and while the Mystryl being born of Shar and Selune thing is nice, it's a: not necessarily known by everyone and b: irrelevant since there's no official deity as well as c: Selune hasn't traditionally had a magic focus, where Corellon has.
Also, don't get me started on how retarded Sehanine is and how her very existence in the first place is a retcon. Besides, the new lore that supposedly overrides the old is that it's Angharradh, not Sehanine, who's Corellon's girlfriend.
Seriously, no, I don't see Selune at all, even with her being a traditional human goddess. She's got some bards, sure, but otherwise? Nope, not seeing it.
Also, the claim that anyone is the new anything is, quite frankly, stupid, for reasons that have been stated above. Nobody is your snide little 'new Azuth', nobody is the 'new Mystra', those positions are, wisely, not even around, much less filled. 
You may not care for the secret to be true, but it is actually perfectly in line with what we know about Selûne and the gods and everything that Ed Greenwood has ever said about the gods. It makes sense that having interloped to Faerûn, the elves would "elfapomorphize" the Torilian god of the moon into an elven version and worship her under a different name and guise.
As for Corellon possessing the magic portfolio, that doesn't really make sense (to me anyway) as he is an interloper deity. Mystryl/Mystra was the original god of magic in Toril's cosmology, and all the "magic" gods of the Faerûnian pantheon held their portfolios in a direct chain of succession that originated with Mystryl. I suppose Corellon was seen by elves as the source of elven "high" magic, and in so much as Corellon has the worshiper base to prove it he has a legitimate claim to the portfolio of elven high magic as far as the elves are concerned. But it was always a minor part of his portfolio. Unless a few million people of other races convert or at least start to revere him in that capacity, I don't see him ever becoming vested with the magic portfolio as far as humanity, dwarves, or other races are concerned. But then again, stranger things have happened.
Cyric is only doing his job, that is creating balance in the pantheon of the gods by upholding his duty as a god of strife, chaos, destruction..etc.
And the way he does things, like acting mad and a total fool in terms of god battles, is all a masterplan.
You see, acting as a madman and a fool gives one a total advantage of the enemy..That is, if you act like a fool, then the enemy has a bigger chance to underestimate your abilities, giving you the chance of surprise.
And the way he does things, like acting mad and a total fool in terms of god battles, is all a masterplan.
You see, acting as a madman and a fool gives one a total advantage of the enemy..That is, if you act like a fool, then the enemy has a bigger chance to underestimate your abilities, giving you the chance of surprise.
I like to think of Cyric that way, too. I would prefer for the god of lies and intrigue to be cunning and manipulative, rather than a dunce whose luck makes Tymora blush. Then again, I did demote Cyric to a Lesser God and have most of his portfolios stripped away by Bane and Mask in my own Realms, so I suppose I can't think too highly of him.
I'm not even talking about the Sehanine/Selune thing, actually, and I don't even see where you're jumping to that conclusion. Sehanine's existence in the Realms *is* a retcon, just as Fenmarel Mestarine, Angharradh, etc are. None of them were in the Realms as originally published in the grey box, and were retconned in as having always been there in 2E after they got created. 'Uh yeah, these gods nobody's ever heard of, they were always here, shut up' is in fact a retcon. Not a secret history, not 'uh... we just never mentioned them. yeah'. Retcon.
I don't see magic being a particularly minor part of Corellon's portfolio, especially not with its importance to elves, nor do elves usually revere him solely as the patron of high magic when it comes to associating him with magic. (Stemming, undoubtedly, from the carried-over worship from other worlds, where having more than one god of foo in existence, particularly among the non-human pantheons, is normal. To the elves, then, Corellon would have been in their opinion *the* god of magic in the other world. That human/whatever god, whoever he/she/it was? Meh, that guy's for *humans*. Our god is better. Elven culture and especially Elven religious practice are not particularly mutable and don't change much, if at all, even over the course of millennia, because elves are a bunch of stubborn bastards. Mystra, eh, ok, she controls the weave, but does she really understand us and all of our magic like Corellon does?)
So with elves as the people to ask about any given association Corellon may have, the fact that elsewhere he *is* a proper god of magic and thus knows a thing or two about it, and the fact that they've done away with demihuman pantheons and everyone is a core multi-racial god now, it actually doesn't seem that *un*likely. And stranger things have, in fact, happened in Toril, as you say. 
Although that brings us back to my whole 'He's deliberately avoiding doing it *officially*' thing. Which any sane god would do at this point. Let Shar block it all she wants, nobody in their right mind would WANT to officially have the job anyway.
It's not a retcon. It is secret history. A secret about her was revealed that was not previously known. It did not change past continuity, therefore it was not a retcon. It really chaps my hide when people use the word "retcon" as a slur, and more so when they use the term incorrectly.
Actually, the point of a "retcon" is to completely reinterpret past events in a new way, while preserving continuity. It's a recton unless continuity is seriously damaged. The most common type of retcon is exactly what has happened here, the "this is the way it always was, you just thought it was different."
From www.learnthat.com/define/view.asp?id=231...
/ret'kon/ retroactive continuity. The common situation in fiction where a new story "reveals" things about events in previous stories, usually leaving the "facts" the same (thus preserving continuity) while completely changing their interpretation. For example, revealing that a whole season of "Dallas" was a dream was a retcon. This term was once thought to have originated on the {Usenet} newsgroup {news:rec.arts.comics} but is now believed to have been used earlier in comic fandom.
From tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RetC...
Retcon = Retroactive Continuity. Reframing past events to serve a current plot need. When the inserted events work with what was previously stated, it's a Revision; when they outright replace it, it's a Rewrite. The ideal Retcon clarifies a question alluded to without adding excessive new questions. In its most basic form, this is any plot point that was not intended from the beginning. The most preferred use is where it contradicts nothing, even though it was changed later on.
So it's most definitely a retcon. Not sure why you're claiming that people are using the word the wrong way when they're using it appropriately.
strike that, Bahamut is all you need
Bane is all you need, froget Cyric.
strike that, Bahamut is all you need
Froget? Whats that?
Gray its a retcon BECAUSE they don't like it. If they liked it, it wouldn't be a retcon...
Gray its a retcon BECAUSE they don't like it. If they liked it, it wouldn't be a retcon...
No, it's a retcon by definition. The fact that some of us dislike the retcon is a separate issue, unrelated to the fact that it's a retcon.
I'm not saying WotC has never retconned anything, some things they have and some they haven't. There was definitely some major retconning between 2nd & 3rd edition. But the designers have tried to maintain continuity between 3.5 and 4th edition and have said repeatedly that continuity prior to the Spellplague was not retroactively changed. Advancing the story is not a retcon. Revealing secrets about people, places and things that were previously not known or were thought to be different is not a retcon.
Very little of what WotC has done with 4th edition constitutes a retcon and can be explained by in-story events or secret history. There may be a few things you can point to that there is no other explanation for it but that it is a retcon. However, the vast majority of things that members on this board deride as "retcon" do not meet the "definition" of retcon.
Plus, I don't understand why people get in such a tizzy over the concept of retcon in the first place. Retconning is a time-honored tradition that extends from Oz to J.R.R. Tolkien, to DC & Marvel comics to organized religion. I've always thought that Ralph Waldo Emerson put it quite eloquently when he wrote that "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines."
I've always thought that Ralph Waldo Emerson put it quite eloquently when he wrote that "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines."
You know, that statement was later retconned so that the hobgoblin was actually a bugbear (and always had been).
Lame jokes aside, I agree that retcons are only as annoying as you allow them to be. Most, if not almost all, of the transition changes weren't retcons, simply alterations that some/many found unappetizing.
But, returning to the topic at hand - Cyric. I wonder if Malik's still ticking, and whether Cyric has any designs that involve Delta's favorite comrade. If Cyric was a magic god, maybe he'd pull a d__k move and declare Malik Magister, if he ever revealed himself to be the new god of magic.
Very little of what WotC has done with 4th edition constitutes a retcon and can be explained by in-story events or secret history.
Hey, I can't help it if you choose to ignore the dictionary definition and go with whatever you think it might be. But that's your deal. *shrugs*
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
I'm not saying WotC has never retconned anything, some things they have and some they haven't. There was definitely some major retconning between 2nd & 3rd edition. But the designers have tried to maintain continuity between 3.5 and 4th edition and have said repeatedly that continuity prior to the Spellplague was not retroactively changed. Advancing the story is not a retcon. Revealing secrets about people, places and things that were previously not known or were thought to be different is not a retcon.
Very little of what WotC has done with 4th edition constitutes a retcon and can be explained by in-story events or secret history. There may be a few things you can point to that there is no other explanation for it but that it is a retcon. However, the vast majority of things that members on this board deride as "retcon" do not meet the "definition" of retcon.
Plus, I don't understand why people get in such a tizzy over the concept of retcon in the first place. Retconning is a time-honored tradition that extends from Oz to J.R.R. Tolkien, to DC & Marvel comics to organized religion. I've always thought that Ralph Waldo Emerson put it quite eloquently when he wrote that "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines."
1) Sorry but as a DM they force me to retcon anything that was' secret' that was expanded on in my game. You are right if this was a shared world for literature pirpose for say 30 authors...sure it works fine...but when you are talking about here is a shared world of what millions of people...I am sorry but as a DM I want to know all the secrets...
2)I admittly not familar with the Oz seris but JRR Tolkien I am...What was retconned...in his published works? The Hobbit and LotR? His other works donb't count because they were not finished by him...so give a example?
3) And DC & Marvel Comics...yeah their sales are soo high...not. THe only thing keeping them afloat is the movies. Why because people have left reading them because of all the retcons.
4) The key words in that statement of Ralph Waldo Emerson statement is 'foolish consistency' Think what he meant by that. Here is a hint what was retconned in the FR were not foolish consistencies...
On topic..what if Cyric is really the god of magic....So he kills Mystra and absorbs her power, but he's mad and is now the weave itself, and all things go Spellplague. So yeah, there's your explanation of the Spellplague.
On topic..what if Cyric is really the god of magic....So he kills Mystra and absorbs her power, but he's mad and is now the weave itself, and all things go Spellplague. So yeah, there's your explanation of the Spellplague.
This idea has been dismissed before, for a number of reasons:
First, the designers themselves decided that they wanted the setting to not only remove Mystra but prevent the rise of a new deity of magic. They wanted a setting for 4E without a god of magic because they felt that the portfolio was too powerful. So ostensibly, they have Shar "blocking" the rise of a new deity of magic.
Second, Cyric has always been a loser. This is true in more ways than one, but the most important is that he is a loser of portfolios. If Mystra was the deity that "died too often" then Cyric is arguably the deity who gains power only to see it ripped away from him soon thereafter. Considering that the designers don't want a deity of magic in 4E at all, if this had occurred then he would quickly lose the portfolio because of the demands of the designers.
Third, Cyric has always been written as a coward and a bumbling idiot. For the "most powerful" portfolio, it makes little sense to have someone like Cyric get it. It would damage the feel of the setting (more than it has been, anyway) to combine magic with lies and insanity. That's a little too much of a Lovecraftian theme for the entire Realms.
Fourth, even with a radical change in the designers' motives, giving Cyric the magic portfolio would only put a new design team back at square one with the same "problem" they had with Mystra: a deity that is too powerful and needs to be taken down or de-powered. The whole "need" to kill off Mystra was supposedly wanted by the fans because she was too powerful. People are already complaining that Shar is too powerful and asking to see less of her. Can you imagine if they gave Cyric even more power to fumble with?
So no matter how one looks at it, from the perspective of the design team, the demands of the setting to be "balanced," or even how DMs and players view the god/dess of magic, it makes zero sense for Cyric to gain any new portfolios (much less the "most powerful" one).
Plus I've always thought of Cyric to be powerful, There was a time when he stood on top of the entire portfolio...that was at the novel Trial of Cyric the Mad...the gods were almost tricked when he indicated that there was a possibility that he was more powerful than Ao...lolz, if Cyric is stupid...then the gods must be stupider to believe him. And at the end of the book, when he was cured of his madness, he stood on top of Ao's favor...even Mystra and Kelemvor were forced to bend over due to the fact that they tried to put their personal feelings in line with their jobs as gods.
Three cheers for Cyirc...the only god who did the right thing. XD
Meh, he's gained plenty of portfolios before, death, murder, lies, madness, illusion....magic could do to, till for some unknown reason he looses it...again. Dunno what's wrong with Cyric, he tends to be like a weather report....sometimes high, sometimes low.
Plus I've always thought of Cyric to be powerful, There was a time when he stood on top of the entire portfolio...that was at the novel Trial of Cyric the Mad...the gods were almost tricked when he indicated that there was a possibility that he was more powerful than Ao...lolz, if Cyric is stupid...then the gods must be stupider to believe him. And at the end of the book, when he was cured of his madness, he stood on top of Ao's favor...even Mystra and Kelemvor were forced to bend over due to the fact that they tried to put their personal feelings in line with their jobs as gods.
Three cheers for Cyirc...the only god who did the right thing. XD
You do know that the whole conflict between Mystra and Cyric was over Cyric's personal obessions over Mystra back from when they were mortals right? Heck everything before that...and after that was based on the gods personal feelings...that is why it is so bad because it is inconsistent. From the conflict between Shar and Selune...to the silly duel between Helm and Tyr.
Second, Cyric has always been a loser. This is true in more ways than one, but the most important is that he is a loser of portfolios.
Actually he gained more than he lost.
Third, Cyric has always been written as a coward and a bumbling idiot.
Being a secretly ashamed coward is the driving force behind Bane's personality (see Stormlight).
Meh, he's gained plenty of portfolios before, death, murder, lies, madness, illusion....magic could do to, till for some unknown reason he looses it...again. Dunno what's wrong with Cyric, he tends to be like a weather report....sometimes high, sometimes low.
Plus I've always thought of Cyric to be powerful, There was a time when he stood on top of the entire portfolio...that was at the novel Trial of Cyric the Mad...the gods were almost tricked when he indicated that there was a possibility that he was more powerful than Ao...lolz, if Cyric is stupid...then the gods must be stupider to believe him. And at the end of the book, when he was cured of his madness, he stood on top of Ao's favor...even Mystra and Kelemvor were forced to bend over due to the fact that they tried to put their personal feelings in line with their jobs as gods.
Three cheers for Cyirc...the only god who did the right thing. XD
You do know that the whole conflict between Mystra and Cyric was over Cyric's personal obessions over Mystra back from when they were mortals right? Heck everything before that...and after that was based on the gods personal feelings...that is why it is so bad because it is inconsistent. From the conflict between Shar and Selune...to the silly duel between Helm and Tyr.
Well, I guess that's Cyric's advantage over most of the gods....he loves his work..(unlike some biased goddess out there who doesn't give her art to people she don't like.), he was placed by Ao to create chaos and disorder to obtain balance in the pantheon.
I bet even the Spellplague was a result from the fact that he was just doing his job...Spellplague=disorder..
Cyric: Here's my progress report on the Spellplague project sir..
Ao: Nice job kid, keep up the good work
Cyri: Um boss, I need some help about my workmates..
Ao: HOld that for a sec my phone's ringing,...Oh it's the president, well..I really need to go, I'll leave you from here on, I'm sure you can solve those problems, Mr. employee of the year.
Cyric: YOu can count on me sir.
Meh, he's gained plenty of portfolios before, death, murder, lies, madness, illusion....magic could do to, till for some unknown reason he looses it...again. Dunno what's wrong with Cyric, he tends to be like a weather report....sometimes high, sometimes low.
Plus I've always thought of Cyric to be powerful, There was a time when he stood on top of the entire portfolio...that was at the novel Trial of Cyric the Mad...the gods were almost tricked when he indicated that there was a possibility that he was more powerful than Ao...lolz, if Cyric is stupid...then the gods must be stupider to believe him. And at the end of the book, when he was cured of his madness, he stood on top of Ao's favor...even Mystra and Kelemvor were forced to bend over due to the fact that they tried to put their personal feelings in line with their jobs as gods.
Three cheers for Cyirc...the only god who did the right thing. XD
You do know that the whole conflict between Mystra and Cyric was over Cyric's personal obessions over Mystra back from when they were mortals right? Heck everything before that...and after that was based on the gods personal feelings...that is why it is so bad because it is inconsistent. From the conflict between Shar and Selune...to the silly duel between Helm and Tyr.
Well, I guess that's Cyric's advantage over most of the gods....he loves his work..(unlike some biased goddess out there who doesn't give her art to people she don't like.), he was placed by Ao to create chaos and disorder to obtain balance in the pantheon.
I bet even the Spellplague was a result from the fact that he was just doing his job...Spellplague=disorder..
Cyric: Here's my progress report on the Spellplague project sir..
Ao: Nice job kid, keep up the good work
Cyri: Um boss, I need some help about my workmates..
Ao: HOld that for a sec my phone's ringing,...Oh it's the president, well..I really need to go, I'll leave you from here on, I'm sure you can solve those problems, Mr. employee of the year.
Cyric: YOu can count on me sir.
Un the that goddess was deniing him magic because he was attacking magic....and was not allowed to do her work. It was very silly.
Who knows, maybe in the near future Ao will make a decision to destroy Faerun and remodel it, then the good gods like Helm, TOrm, Sune, etc. join forces to try and overpower Ao since they've tried negotiations and it doesn't work. Or maybe the evil gods will be too ambitious and try to overthrow Ao off his seat.(like what Bane and Myrkul did)
It's a good thing Cyric is there, to keep Ao his position as big boss..since the gods are too busy trying to deal with him, they wont think of stupider things anymore...like trying to overthrow the overgod...or wont try to abuse their power, since Cyric is there, waiting for an opportunity for the gods to make a mistake, or create a bias that signifies misfeisance in their work. In the end of Trial of Cyric the mad novel, Cyric was deemed as the only god between Mystra, Kelemvor and him who did his work properly...Kelemvor learned his lesson and never again showed any love...Mystra dealt with it more immaturely though, but soon she was able to get over the Kelemvor ignoring her issue....Then Sune cries because what Cyric did was very painful towards Mystra and Kelemvor, and soon realizes that she shouldn't butt into other people's love afair...no wait, she's the god of love XD.
SO every god in the pantheon have their conflicts, Shar hates Selune, Llolth hates Gruumsh, Tyr hates Helm....but one thing is sure, everybody hates Cyric. Cyric never gets along with the other gods, that's why he's the best deity out there who carries out his portfolio the best.
Also it goes against cannon completely.
Ao power is such that if every good in the pantheon(including all the racial pantheons) united they would last a second against him.
Nobody stole the tablets of fate...which are really not important. He allowed them to be stolen so he had a fiction to cause the Avartar seris.
??: How come the company got too much bad reviews?
Ao: Oh Mr. President, about that...I'm doing the best I can.
??: Oh you better be, If you still want your job.
Ao: Where's that employee of the year when you need him? He hasn't been reporting to me for almost a thousand years now..don't tell me I'm gonna have to do something.
Everybody knows no god can touch Ao. But if there is no balance, I'm sure Ao would get scolded by his boss. THat's his job anyway...to maintain the balance.
??: How come the company got too much bad reviews?
Ao: Oh Mr. President, about that...I'm doing the best I can.
??: Oh you better be, If you still want your job.
Ao: Where's that employee of the year when you need him? He hasn't been reporting to me for almost a thousand years now..don't tell me I'm gonna have to do something.
lol...We all know who Ao's boss is...right now it is WotC. ;)
though what 'balance' was restored with the Spell Plague? I mean the forces of evil and darkness definitly got stronger...the forces of good got weaker. How is this balance? It got very chaotic...
1st is, you know life and its up and downs...I'm sure Ao is sitting in his sofa right now watching at his favorite reality show "A Day in Faerun" in his favorite channel Toril tv.
I don't know what's wrong with Ao, why isn't he doing something right now about magic running wild on the realms? Maybe in 5e will be hearing of a unique divine spellcaster whose task is to repair the Weave, or fuel dead magic zones...Maybe an aspect of Mystra with amnesia.
2nd would be chaos, if there is no chaos, then there would be no balance as well..It's like that good and evil quote, no good means no evil and vice versa. So, to maintain balance, why not create chaos in magic, but at the same time..magic that can be tamed still, but a lot harder.
3rd is that there really was no imbalance in the good vs evil when the Spellplague occured, or there's really nothing to fix...I remember reading the Ghost King by RAS, it stated about Cadderly loosing his connection to his god, he got denied of his divine powers, but what was lost from him was replaced with powerful magic that could destroy almost anything evil.
4th would be...maybe Mystra was a failed project...Ao's been trying all these years to find a way to fit a god of magic in. At one time, he placed Mystryl, then he wasn't very happy with the results and decided to replace her with Mystra (through some uber fate plannings that included Karsus and the phaerrim...I remember reading the 2nd book of Netheril trilogy...Mystra was already at exact age, alive and kicking, ready to become a goddess, and knowing what to do BEFORE Mystryll died...I figured she was part of Ao's plan.), then Ao didn't like Mystra that much and decided to replace her again...then he decided to just abandon it.
Meh, well never know.
But we are so far off topic from this thread's intent. I'll agree to disagree...with creyzi4zb12 on this point.
2)I admittly not familar with the Oz seris but JRR Tolkien I am...What was retconned...in his published works? The Hobbit and LotR? His other works donb't count because they were not finished by him...so give a example?
ICBW, but as I understand it, the very first published edition of The Hobbit really did have Gollum offer to give away the Ring, as per Bilbo's fib to the rest of the party, as it wasn't yet decided it needed to be evil and addicting. It was corrected and rewritten and Tolkien wrote a forward explaining it in character, so to speak.
2)I admittly not familar with the Oz seris but JRR Tolkien I am...What was retconned...in his published works? The Hobbit and LotR? His other works donb't count because they were not finished by him...so give a example?
ICBW, but as I understand it, the very first published edition of The Hobbit really did have Gollum offer to give away the Ring, as per Bilbo's fib to the rest of the party, as it wasn't yet decided it needed to be evil and addicting. It was corrected and rewritten and Tolkien wrote a forward explaining it in character, so to speak.
Really? I have to look that up...never heard of that before.
PRAISE MYSTRA!
18DELTA(PRAISE MYSTRA!)
18DELTA(PRAISE MYSTRA!)
Meh, Cyric was never really my favorite, so was Mystra...maybe it would've been better if a new god of magic was appointed. I could picture out the best candidate to be Gruumsh, since he's one god who totally rocks!!
Gruumsh couldn't spell 'spell' at a spelling-Bee with a large sign in front of him with the word Spell.
ALL HAIL GRUUMSH!!
orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc Maybe a time will come when Cyric and Gruumsh team up together, and the magic portfolio will then be divided by them two...Cyric would control the Shadoweave while Gruumsh takes hold of the Weave...I remember that in history of gods in FR Gruumsh was the first deity to perform deicide...It could be possible that all the portfolios of the gods will be absorbed by Gruumsh since the first death of a god will absorb all portfolios in future god deaths.
ALL HAIL GRUUMSH!!
Hey I say we give it to Lurue as Ed intended. Better than some smelly orc.
unicorns unicorns unicorns unicorns unicorns unicorns 
It could be Mirin from DeBie's Downshadow, she has quite an unusual affinity to spells because o her spellscar.
Show
Perhaps when she has absorbed a critical amount of weave energy she might transform into the future weave incarnate
I think it should be a new mortal, an adventurer that as his epic destiny stands up and steals the portfolio from under Shar's suppression. A faithfull of Oghma might unravel its mystery (by chance or divine inspiration) and so become one with the weave oncemore.
It could be Mirin from DeBie's Downshadow, she has quite an unusual affinity to spells because o her spellscar.ShowPerhaps when she has absorbed a critical amount of weave energy she might transform into the future weave incarnate
That could be interesting. But was not the weave destroyed...as in it is gone?
There's evidence, mainly from a few novels like The Ghost King, Downshadow, and The Edge of Chaos, to suggest that the Weave may not actually be destroyed (as in "completely obliterated"), but that it might actually lie in tatters. The truth of the matter is still foggy. Assuming the latter is true, whether it's possible to reweave these shreds is still unknown, but it's an intriguing idea.
WotC left themselves an out.
Mystra killed with the Staff of Azuth, the Weave still existing in some places(very unstable at that), some Chosen still around with Her Divine Energy.
18DELTA(BLESS THE LADY OF THE WEAVE!)
Thats why you can still have out breaks of Spellplague in the 1480's Realms.
Well, yes, I figured everyone was already aware of that.
WotC left themselves an out.
Mystra killed with the Staff of Azuth, the Weave still existing in some places(very unstable at that), some Chosen still around with Her Divine Energy.
Speaking of Chosen, I'd very much like to find out what Dove and Storm are up to (given at least one of them should be alive). I guess I must wait for Elminster Must Die before that happens.
I still want to know why, if Elves were supposed to be so closely tied to the Weave, they seem to have been affected not at all by it.
Luck of the Elvish?
Thats why some of them became Eladrin.
The Weave was blocking the Feywild.
Thus the Elves lost their connection to it.
18DELTA(CELEBRATE THE WEAVE!)
Un the that goddess was deniing him magic because he was attacking magic....and was not allowed to do her work. It was very silly.
No she was denying him magic because he was after the deity of magic (actually exactly like Bane and Talos tried for ages without getting their foot in the door like Cyric) and because she disliked him for doing a good job with murdering Leira. She was basically jealous that Cyric was better in his job than she was in her.
It's also nice that latter supplement branded this whole denying magic thing as rubbish anyway, at least denying a fellow deity magic anywhere else than limited to Toril.
Un the that goddess was deniing him magic because he was attacking magic....and was not allowed to do her work. It was very silly.
No she was denying him magic because he was after the deity of magic (actually exactly like Bane and Talos tried for ages without getting their foot in the door like Cyric) and because she disliked him for doing a good job with murdering Leira. She was basically jealous that Cyric was better in his job than she was in her.It's also nice that latter supplement branded this whole denying magic thing as rubbish anyway, at least denying a fellow deity magic anywhere else than limited to Toril.
Um Cyric was not going after her because he was doing 'his job'. He was going after her because he was obsessed over her. And she said no.
She was not jealous of him doing a good job. He was stalking her over some obession.
1: Cyric knew her real name
2: Being companions with her for a long, time he knows her weaknesses/that was her love for Kelemvor and her friends (that ex Sune cleric)
3. Mystra was there..or he could see her/If he could see Kelemvor, then Kelemvor would've been his first priority (I don't think Cyric has any perverted obsession for Kelemvor.)
While it could also be possible that Cyric was obsessed with Mystra, I can't really picture it out since I've never read any statements about Cyric being a pervert for women, I don't think he even has any consorts..I don't know, was he jealous of Kelemvor because he got to Midnight before him?...he never even made a move on Midnight from the beginning.
Personally, I think one of the reasons why Cyric acts like that (as stated by hints in the book) is because he was afraid...In the earlier books Cyric as a mortal was pictured out as an unlucky not-so-pathetic person, he doesn't seem to trust anybody from the fact that we was always oppressed on his earlier years...Personally Cyric is afraid of Mystra...but I believe he was afraid of Kelemvor even more...Since Mystra has known him for a long time, and became companions with him, Mystra knows his strengths and weaknesses, and Cyric is afraid that Mystra might be the death of him someday...I know, Mystra is a good person and would never do something like that to our poor ol Cyric...But this Cyric thinks too much, he doesn't think like that to Mystra, he's mad after all.
In short, Cyric was obsessed, but it was not an obsession towards Mystra...It was an obsession for a higher rank.
Hmmm...I don't think it was obsession...Or not obsession in a perverted sense...it was more like Cyric wanted to be on top of the food chain concerning his companions and the gods. I don't recall any perverted obsession Cyric had for Midnight in the previous books (or maybe i'm wrong, it's been a long time since I'ver read Avatar) Mystra was one of his very first targets due to the fact that Cyric had the best advantage over her, and she had the best of him..which could be due to the fact that...
1: Cyric knew her real name
2: Being companions with her for a long, time he knows her weaknesses/that was her love for Kelemvor and her friends (that ex Sune cleric)
3. Mystra was there..or he could see her/If he could see Kelemvor, then Kelemvor would've been his first priority (I don't think Cyric has any perverted obsession for Kelemvor.)
While it could also be possible that Cyric was obsessed with Mystra, I can't really picture it out since I've never read any statements about Cyric being a pervert for women, I don't think he even has any consorts..I don't know, was he jealous of Kelemvor because he got to Midnight before him?...he never even made a move on Midnight from the beginning.
Personally, I think one of the reasons why Cyric acts like that (as stated by hints in the book) is because he was afraid...In the earlier books Cyric as a mortal was pictured out as an unlucky not-so-pathetic person, he doesn't seem to trust anybody from the fact that we was always oppressed on his earlier years...Personally Cyric is afraid of Mystra...but I believe he was afraid of Kelemvor even more...Since Mystra has known him for a long time, and became companions with him, Mystra knows his strengths and weaknesses, and Cyric is afraid that Mystra might be the death of him someday...I know, Mystra is a good person and would never do something like that to our poor ol Cyric...But this Cyric thinks too much, he doesn't think like that to Mystra, he's mad after all.
In short, Cyric was obsessed, but it was not an obsession towards Mystra...It was an obsession for a higher rank.
I don't disagree with your analkyisis...but there was a perversion to Cyric's obession with Midnight/Mystra. I suggest rereading the Avartar seris again. You might be right I couldn't read anymore of the books after Price of Lies. But it was there
Why Mystra?...
Does it mean that Cyric hates Mystra more than Kelemvor?
Or maybe Mystra's death was maybe because she had too many openings (too many enemies, etc)...I personally thought that Cyric found Mystra an easier target instead of Kelemvor...Cyric after all, takes all opportunities...I mean he's killed plenty of gods before, Bhaal, Leira, Mask (temporarily).
I personally don't want to think about Cyric lusting for Mystra...the mere thought of it disgusts me.
OMG why did you put this on my head....must think of cute fluffy things...like those orcs!!
orc orc orc orc orc orc orc Well, it does sound perverted...the way he keeps on attacking Mystra...But the way Kelemvor fits into the scene, I don't know why Cyric's madness was not directed towards him.
Why Mystra?...
Does it mean that Cyric hates Mystra more than Kelemvor?
Or maybe Mystra's death was maybe because she had too many openings (too many enemies, etc)...I personally thought that Cyric found Mystra an easier target instead of Kelemvor...Cyric after all, takes all opportunities...I mean he's killed plenty of gods before, Bhaal, Leira, Mask (temporarily).
I personally don't want to think about Cyric lusting for Mystra...the mere thought of it disgusts me.
OMG why did you put this on my head....must think of cute fluffy things...like those orcs!!
Um...orcs...don't think where 1/2 orcs come from
He went after Kelemvor because he was competion...I mean he worked up to break up their relationship...maybe he was hoping she will see him in better light...which failed so he killed her.
Or even more disturbing maybe he hated Mystra for coming between him and Kelemvor...they did know each other before the start of the trilogy.
Also Cyric killing Leira I equate to Han shooting second.
The suggestion of Cyric taking Mystra's place and thus (because he's either a genius, a nutjob or both) creating the Spellplague is reasonable enough that there should be people in the Realms who are worried that it has happened even if it isn't true. Followers of Cyric might use it as a rallying cry (thinking their god is only hiding until the moment is right to strike), people who are opposed to Cyric might go berserk and due some nutty stuff in their frenzy, or it could lead to an adventure hook for PCs as they are tasked to find out if it is true or do something about it.
Do even the gods of Faerun really know what happened to Mystra's power? What really did happen to Cyric? Plenty of good material there, and the answers are best left a mystery...at least for now.
Um Cyric was not going after her because he was doing 'his job'. He was going after her because he was obsessed over her. And she said no.
And yet he was doing his job nonetheless. His shop just happened to fit with his personal obsession.
Um Cyric was not going after her because he was doing 'his job'. He was going after her because he was obsessed over her. And she said no.
And yet he was doing his job nonetheless. His shop just happened to fit with his personal obsession.
Yep. Cyric understands the terrible beauty of mixing business with pleasure.
You know, all this talk about Cyric's obsessions makes me want to give him a consort in my Realms, someone as bat**** crazy as he is. She'd also help ease his wounded ego, since he's a Lesser God in my game, having lost the bulk of his power to Bane and Mask.
You know, all this talk about Cyric's obsessions makes me want to give him a consort in my Realms, someone as bat**** crazy as he is. She'd also help ease his wounded ego, since he's a Lesser God in my game, having lost the bulk of his power to Bane and Mask.
What!? You have Cyric as a Lesser Power!? Well I guess i supopse that I should be happy that you just didnt outright kill em off. Is he still banished in your Realms? Mystra still dead?
You know, all this talk about Cyric's obsessions makes me want to give him a consort in my Realms, someone as bat**** crazy as he is. She'd also help ease his wounded ego, since he's a Lesser God in my game, having lost the bulk of his power to Bane and Mask.
What!? You have Cyric as a Lesser Power!? Well I guess i supopse that I should be happy that you just didnt outright kill em off. Is he still banished in your Realms? Mystra still dead?
1. No, he isn't banished; he's too weak to be a threat to the other gods like Bane or Mask, so house arrest isn't necessary. Basically, he was held in the dungeons of Banehold for a while after Bane and Mask tore him a new one, before Bane sent him to Talona (who had by then risen to become a Greater Power, independent of another's control) in order to maintain their alliance. Figuring Talona was in need of a servant, Bane gave her the now-weakened Cyric on the idea that "insanity is a mental illness". So, now, Cyric, who only retains control over Lies and Madness, "serves" the Lady of Poison (at least until he can regain his strength and lash out at Mask and Bane). He's much more focused now than he was in his glory, because now he really needs to strategize and plot his moves to regain lost ground.
2. Yes, Mystra is still dead (Cyric's fall came well after his murder of Mystra), but Azuth and Savras are still alive. Azuth is the new god of spellcraft and magical studies, though he no longer has the monopoly on magic that Mystra had with the Weave. Savras is Azuth's right-hand man, and is pretty much the same old Savras.
You know, all this talk about Cyric's obsessions makes me want to give him a consort in my Realms, someone as bat**** crazy as he is. She'd also help ease his wounded ego, since he's a Lesser God in my game, having lost the bulk of his power to Bane and Mask.
What!? You have Cyric as a Lesser Power!? Well I guess i supopse that I should be happy that you just didnt outright kill em off. Is he still banished in your Realms? Mystra still dead?
Hey I have not kill of Cyric either...yet. He is a lesser god of madness.(Why there is not alot of crazy people)
Leira is still alive having fooled Cyric into thinking he was a greater god and masters of lies and illusions...also got to write that book od lies and blame Cyric for it..and got to be a hero for saving Mystra from Cyric.
and well Mystra is still alive...why? saw no reason to get rid of a character who actual development is of interest....no spell plague etc. Saw no reason for it really.
Cyric seems to be one of those guys where you either love him or hate him. Personaly I think Cyric takes a more hands on approach compared to the other deities, I think thats one of the things I like about him. Most of the other gods might use vague dreams or visions, or have a go-between with a Chosen or something like that. Cyric on the other hand will show up personally at the temple and tell his dudes straight up, "go here, and do this."
1) Cyric has a choosen. And has used go betweens like the other gods.
2)I kinda find it ironic that you like a god of lies for being straight forward.
1) Cyric has a choosen. And has used go betweens like the other gods.
Ah yes thats right, Malik, I had almost forgotten about him. Always wished they would do more with him. I guess technicaly I could argue that he wasnt really a Chosen but a Seraph of Cyric, although I believe that they are essentially the same thing.
Well lets see, I just googled Seraph, A seraph (Heb. שׂרף, pl. שׂרפים Seraphim, lat. seraph[us], pl. seraphi[m]) is one of a class of celestial beings mentioned once in the Hebrew Bible.
So I guess he made Malik a celestial? or in 4e standards an Angel?
Eh whatever, the point is youre right, but I still see Cyric being more direct compared to the other gods, just the way I see it.
2)I kinda find it ironic that you like a god of lies for being straight forward.
heh, yeah you have a valid point there as well lol.
I hearby proclaim Cyric as the God of Irony!
1) Cyric has a choosen. And has used go betweens like the other gods.
Ah yes thats right, Malik, I had almost forgotten about him. Always wished they would do more with him. I guess technicaly I could argue that he wasnt really a Chosen but a Seraph of Cyric, although I believe that they are essentially the same thing.
Well lets see, I just googled Seraph, A seraph (Heb. שׂרף, pl. שׂרפים Seraphim, lat. seraph[us], pl. seraphi[m]) is one of a class of celestial beings mentioned once in the Hebrew Bible.
So I guess he made Malik a celestial? or in 4e standards an Angel?
Eh whatever, the point is youre right, but I still see Cyric being more direct compared to the other gods, just the way I see it.
2)I kinda find it ironic that you like a god of lies for being straight forward.
heh, yeah you have a valid point there as well lol.
I hearby proclaim Cyric as the God of Irony!
That is exactly the trait I dislike in a god in a RPG game world though...sure if it was called Cyric Land...It is fine...but it is not. It is the Forgotten realms. Other gods can act more direct...but they were never written that way...for the most part. It is like they are not allowed to me...Cyric is allowed because for some reason he is favored by the writters.
Well I dont think the writers favor him that much, he is after all under lock and key for the next 905 years. Not cool, not cool at all.
From a writer/designer's perspective, there are only a few reasons to lock up a powerful evil character.
- previous plot lines with him were so big that his death would seem hollow.
- imprisoned bad guys often have a far reach outside their immediate jail term (e.g. orchestrating evil minions on the outside).
- you're saving him for something later, usually something big.
- demands of the story/plot require mercy rather than execution.
- you intend to make him good at some point, or at least an ally.
Given that Cyric has no goodly mortal "nemesis" to oppose him, and the fact that he has demonstrable plot armor in many situations, the only logical conclusion is that the designers plan to use him even more than they have already. It's already been stated that his imprisonment seems meaningless, given that gods in FR tend to usually work through mortals anyway. And if they need a live appearance, there's nothing preventing people/gods/whatever from visiting him on his plane.
No, he's clearly favored by the writers. He has too much plot armor to even deny it.
Fret not Lord Cyric! You will be free again!!!
Fret not Lord Cyric! You will be free again!!!
Only to be killed by the greatest lord of evil in all Realmspace
Show
the almighty Urdlen
I think it suits him.
Fret not Lord Cyric! You will be free again!!!
Only to be killed by the greatest lord of evil in all RealmspaceShowthe almighty Urdlen
Im not sure if youre serious or just kidding? The Greatest Lord of Evil in all Realmspace?
Show
;)
So how do you kill a guy with plot armor? loz...
you use plot weapons
Now he is being written like the cunning, coniving God that he should be, and people don't like it because he is no longer the village idiot.;)
I see him as the FR Loki, just not as Marvel stupid.
Maybe with Cyric in charge of the Zhents, they will make a come back and be better than ever. The whole Shade fiasco was Fzoul and Bane's fault. Let Fzoul and Bane be the village idiots now.
Now he is being written like the cunning, coniving God that he should be, and people don't like it because he is no longer the village idiot.;)
LOL... I'm curious... which recent book(s) supposedly portray Cyric as a non-idiot?
Even the ZHentarim commander thought of him as brilliant for having thought of an idea that fast, and under such dire circumstances.
And I wouldn't call a HUMAN WHO OUTSMARTS A GOD as an idiot. I remember the last words Cyri said when he was about to die...."At least I killed a god, before I die" (One of the coolest lines I've ever read.)
One thing why Cyric became mad is due to the huge amount of power he acquired in such a short time....if this was a psychiatry class, the sudden exposure of Cyric from a pathetic exiled rogue to one of the most powerful gods in the pantheon in such a short time would be what we call mood shift. Now a lot of gods hated Mystra due to his lack of objectivity and neutrality in good and evil....In Crucible, thanks to Cyric, Mystra and Kelemvor were able to get over this weakness of theirs.
"Attaining power is easy, understanding it is difficult, and keeping it is extremely hard"
At first Cyric was written like LM's Zhents...like the village idiots.
Now he is being written like the cunning, coniving God that he should be, and people don't like it because he is no longer the village idiot.;)
I see him as the FR Loki, just not as Marvel stupid.
Maybe with Cyric in charge of the Zhents, they will make a come back and be better than ever. The whole Shade fiasco was Fzoul and Bane's fault. Let Fzoul and Bane be the village idiots now.
Cyric is by no means in charge of the Zhents; he has yet to even eliminate the Banites in the ranks (he's got a pretty poor record when it comes to that task). But yes, with Fzoul and Bane gone, the Zhentarim will become a more efficient force, especially since evil is no longer forced to be written as ass-backwards and incompetent (thanks a bunch, TSR
). With the return of yours truly to the helm, the Zhentarim will finally claim their rightful seat as the dominant power Show
first in Faerun, then in Toril, then finally all Realmspace!
Now he is being written like the cunning, coniving God that he should be, and people don't like it because he is no longer the village idiot.;)
LOL... I'm curious... which recent book(s) supposedly portray Cyric as a non-idiot?
None really.;) He's not really portrayed. He is working through Proxies.
Bane on the other hand does make a Pact with Tamy in a novel.
The Drow gods were mangled in novels.
Pretty much they need to leave the Gods out of the novels so they don't look so stupid.
Just have them working through Proxies...
Now he is being written like the cunning, coniving God that he should be, and people don't like it because he is no longer the village idiot.;)
LOL... I'm curious... which recent book(s) supposedly portray Cyric as a non-idiot?
None really.;) He's not really portrayed. He is working through Proxies.
Bane on the other hand does make a Pact with Tamy in a novel.
The Drow gods were mangled in novels.
Pretty much they need to leave the Gods out of the novels so they don't look so stupid.
Just have them working through Proxies...
I agree with this 100%....they should never have written anything with the gods as main characters.
Gruumsh Smash!
He may just add that to the Gods he pens and create the ToT crap all over again.
Oh, and also:Show**** Fzoul, and while we're at it, **** Netheril and Shar too
Show me on the doll where Shar touched you, T_S. ;)
Depending on how 'Gods being humanly stupid' is done, it can actually be a good read - See the first few chapters of Evermeet for a great example. 'Gods being inexplicable even after an explanation' is also handled well later in the book.
Show me on the doll where Shar touched you, T_S. ;)
I said I dont want to talk about it!!!
corellon was planning the spellplague during the time of troubles......lol
with the death of mystra, by lethal spanking tore apart the magic portfolio and sent them back to their respectful owners.
hi DMC
but the magic portfolio was created by merging two other portfolios, light and dark magic.
with the death of mystra, by lethal spanking tore apart the magic portfolio and sent them back to their respectful owners.
hi DMC
What's up? By that logic....portfolios returning to previous owners rather than the deity who killed said portfolio...then Leira should have went to Ao....