Y'know, I've been thinking about it, and I think I may have figured something out; Eilisraee, in my humble opinion, was included in D&D 3rd edition not for players to have an option for gawdz if they chose to emulate Drizzt as a good Drow, but as a way to test the waters for the possibilities of an offshoot Drow race.
Actually, Eilistraee predates 3E.
Drow were merely a race of subterrenian elves before Lolth was cast down by Corell' right?
Uh, no. Drow descended from "dark elves" who did, in fact, live on the surface.
Suppose that, if good Drow continue to grow in popularity (either because of Drizzt fanboys/girls or influence from WOW Night Elves), they decide to give this predacessor race a triumphant return in the next edition-with their own goddess counterpart to Lolth of the evil Drow who will be equal in power and similar in the divinity of her origin?
After a novel trilogy that was designed to cut down the number of drow deities?
I've had my own theories about Eilisraee, but they have yet to come to pass.
But it doesn't mean they won't people! Someday she will be the goddess of moonlight bowling! I swear it!
Sucks to be a fey of color, hm? Kidding.
-Kris
-I reject that, however. Information on Dark Elves before the Descent can be found on various threads here. Do a search for 'Dark Elf'. Elves of Faerûn also has excellent information, however much of it has since been invalidated. Nonetheless, I like most of it more than the current canon, but will be adjusting some of it.
18D
Dark elves, originally, were a dark skinned race of elves who lived to the south of the rest of the nations way back when...
Well, they also lived in the area that is now known as the High Moor, which is in the North.
Sucks to be a fey of color, hm? Kidding.
I understand that's a joke, but most of the surface elves aren't really pale-skinned either. Gold elves are bronze, Wood elves are tan, Wild elves are brown, sea elves are blue/green.
-The original Dark Elves were simply (according to recent AGHotR canon) dark-skinned Green Elves. They became Drow after the end of the Fourth Crown War.
-I reject that, however. Information on Dark Elves before the Descent can be found on various threads here. Do a search for 'Dark Elf'. Elves of Faerûn also has excellent information, however much of it has since been invalidated. Nonetheless, I like most of it more than the current canon, but will be adjusting some of it.
I didn't like dark elves being retconned as green elves, either.
-4E lore invalidates previous edition lore.
-Not in all cases. But, I am disturbingly finding more and more in which this is happening...
I didn't like dark elves being retconned as green elves, either.
-I have too much good stuff already in mind and already written. Plus, that goes against the entire 'intelligent design' thing Elves have going, for the most part.
-Not in all cases. But, I am disturbingly finding more and more in which this is happening...
-Because they have a bunch of new designers that know Eberron, and are to lazy to learn the some good old fashioned Realms Lore. Still alot of prior Lore is being invalidated in 4e which sucks big time.
18D :embarrass
-Because they have a bunch of new designers that know Eberron, and are to lazy to learn the some good old fashioned Realms Lore.
-I don't think that's really the case, but, at times, it sure does seem that way, eh?
-I don't think that's really the case, but, at times, it sure does seem that way, eh?
-Thats what it is really starting to look like. Some times we have to look at the facts for what they really are. No lore is safe with 4e because they didn't make it. IMHO
18D
-Thats what it is really starting to look like. Some times we have to look at the facts for what they really are. No lore is safe with 4e because they didn't make it. IMHO
-I know, I know. Well, you have your two heroes, there, so...
I love Drizzt. He's the greatest
You like Artemis better though right? Something new other than a self-rightous Paladin out to save the world that is the only good moral being of his race. Shamful RAS.
You like Artemis better though right?
Nope.
18D :D
Drow in general are also cool. Especially if they're all shadowy and ninja.
the Crystal Shard was my first Realms novel
Same here, believe it or not. I was way oversold on the quality of the novel, but hey, I was younger and more naive back then.
the Crystal Shard was my first Realms novel
Shadowbred
Shadowbred
Not quite...
Same here, believe it or not. I was way oversold on the quality of the novel, but hey, I was younger and more naive back then.
I still think its a fun read. I had th original with the 4 of them in the snow on the cover. larry Elmore I think
I still think its a fun read. I had th original with the 4 of them in the snow on the cover. larry Elmore I think
I have that one too.
I have that one too.
What were you 4 when you bought it?
Not quite...
Wtf are you talking about? I had replied that Shadowbred was my 1st FR novel. People seem to be misunderstanding me lately, do I need to be more detailed on my fault of the posting, or was there some miscommunication?
enjoyable both of them.
anyway i like drizzt, dont like jarlaxle and can only speculate about entreri now.
could never read that character, to be he was always the run away the other way fast deal
my first FR novel was the icewind dale trilogy book, got it, not long after the iwd1 crpg came out.
enjoyable both of them.
anyway i like drizzt, dont like jarlaxle and can only speculate about entreri now.
could never read that character, to be he was always the run away the other way fast deal
Yeah ok, I suppose the homless Drow is more intresting fighting some goblins and monsters with a usless party he travels with. A halfling that slows everyone down needing to be rescued twice every novel. A human that is iliterate like a dwarf and can't decide her feelings between 2 men because she is twisted like that. Then you got this emo barbarian who stares at fires for 10 chapters. Let's not forget the dwarf who blows my mind trying to understand the irrelivent dilouge. And than this pet that RAS feels the need to write in a billion times "600 pounds omfg, so amazing, not 400! not 700!, but 600!!" Say it again RAS, I did not read it the 1st 20 novels!
Then you got guys like Artemis who go around taking down draco liches, city priest rulers, human liches, assasinates other assasins, made master monk kane fearful for his life. It was so great to see Artemis blow Jarlaxel off in the road of the patriach, instead of Drizzt freaking out over his friends getting a scratch on the knee. Btw, Drizzt sword is named..twinkle or something? What's up with that? He uh, showing his true colors or something?;)
dont care to much for wulfgar
like bruenor
can go eitherway for cattie-brie
have no dealings with jarlaxle, he sells more than he tells, carries way to much magic, is by far more cunning then most drow.
entreri when i first read about him, he seemed to full of himself, always running from his past, so all said and done he faces is past and states he is dead.
his dwarfen companion was by far more entertaining then he was in tha book.
bwahahahahahahahahahahaha!
It was so great to see Artemis blow Jarlaxel off in the road of the patriach, instead of Drizzt freaking out over his friends getting a scratch on the knee.
Not arguing this with you, but I have to express my sympathies to you for having read that book. Or is it just me who feels that it was the worst novel in his career? I was a staunch RAS fan for years, even reading his non-Realms books, up until I read Road of the Patriarch, which, to my sensibilities, was so horribly bad that I probably won't be able to pick up an RAS book for a few years at least. Sometimes I have nightmares about RotP, and wake up crying manly tears of frustration and anger.
and yes, I never liked the name twinkle, despite having been a Drizzt fan.
Not arguing this with you, but I have to express my sympathies to you for having read that book. Or is it just me who feels that it was the worst novel in his career? I was a staunch RAS fan for years, even reading his non-Realms books, up until I read Road of the Patriarch, which, to my sensibilities, was so horribly bad that I probably won't be able to pick up an RAS book for a few years at least. Sometimes I have nightmares about RotP, and wake up crying manly tears of frustration and anger.
What sucked about it? I find it far more intresting to have something new of a semi-evil character other than a Paladin drow outdoing Lathander in terms of good and rightousness. Doesn't it get boring after a while when you see Cale, Elminster, Drizzt and every other authors character save the world within their own territory? You must read into Goerge RR Martin. There is no such thing as a "main character" to him, if someone should die, they will. Not have drizzt go into the underdark by himself and have his greatest rival save him escaping from the first noble house *Cough STARLESS NIGHTS Cough Cough*.
What sucked about it?
Wow where do I begin. The plot was weak and random, it was an anti climax to the rest of the trilogy, and the character developement was forced and superficial.
Let me do my summary of the plotline.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
End of Promise of the Witchking
Artemis and Jarlaxle are now going to join the Citadel of Assassins, on their road of badassness and moral greyness. Yay, whoohoo!
First 10 minutes of reading Road of the Partiarch
Artemis: Hmm, I know we spent some time building up to it in the last book, but I suddenly feel like stabbing these Citadel of Assassin guys I'm with, so **** it, why not? Its not like the book I'm in needs any real continuity.
But wait, there is hope!
Jarlaxle and Artemis are now en route to the new Castle Perilous, where they will claim lordship of the region!
In fact, Bregen Daerthe is now fortifying the new Castle Perilous, to fight the armies of the Paladin King Gareth!
Yay!
Oh well, so much for that
The Paladin King Gareth's army gets to the castle...
Jarlaxle: oh well, lets get going through the magic portal now. This was such a funny joke. Next we can go prank-call old people and ring doorbells before running away!
And then, randomly...
Artemis: I'm just going to stay here and get caught, cause I feel like it.
The only real reason for this part seems to be so that we can see Artemis' uber-hardcore rant to strip the Paladin King of his self-righteousness, and Gareth is such a spineless weakling that he just takes it like an abused puppy dog, all the while his dominating she-man Queen froths at the mouth in the background. And the stupid uber-awesome-ultimate-death-machine monk's entire purpose in the book was to do quivering palm once, just to show that monks are uber, and then to fade into obscurity.
Artemis, your mom's here to fetch you
Jarlaxle comes and fetches Artemis, and then they all drink tea and discuss what a nice playdate it was.
Worst of All
We now have main characters randomly leaving the bloodstone lands, and let all our investment in the story laid forth in Promise of the Witchking be ****ed. Now we are in Calimshan, so Artemis can kill a dirty priest. Whoohoo.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The book's primary endeavour is to develope Artemis' character, but the way in which it is done is forced and unintuitive. Furthermore, Jarlaxle's only character developement is a deepening of his strange, inexplicable obsession with Entreri. Oh, and we now have a new character, who is a dwarf that smashes things and occaisonally weeps for fallen family members. Oh joy.
Frankly, I think RAS got lazy because of his success, and instead of writing this book properly, with continuity and consistency and plot that's not paper thin, he just spun a wheel every chapter to determine what's happening next. As a reader, I get absorbed into the book's storyline, and when that storyline does a 180 whenever I have gotten into it, its just frustrating. And yes, while the Drizzt books have some annoying features, the books themselves weren't this patchy and flimsy.
"I care not, for I have a road worth taking!" DURRR, DURRRR YOUR MY HERO DRIZZT MEDAL OF HONOR FOR YOU DURR!
What were you 4 when you bought it?
Nope. I found it in a gaming shop.
I hope they will make the new realms drow more realmsian with some nods to connections to the old pantheon. Bah still cant stand the diety bodycounts. Wonder how the Cintri halfdrow have done aswell...
Wonder how the Cintri halfdrow have done aswell...
Or, for that matter, any half-drow. Or people who have some drow blood in them but not quite half...
Oh, they're screwed. Instantly sucked to the Demonweb Pits as spider food.
Well, that'd make about as much sense as everything else that's happened with drow lately. So yeah, your answer would at least be consistent in that respect.;)
Crystal Shard was also my first "realms" book, at the time though i was a rabid DragonLance fan and just couldn't get into the new setting. It took me two tries to get through the book, but then after that I’ve been a big fan of RAS and the realms in general.
It's odd that a thread on the possibilities of the DE race in 4E realms, turned into a discussion on your first book and the virtues of RAS's writing...
I guess it makes a little sense though since one of his characters is easily the most iconic member of the darkelves in literature.
I hope they will make the new realms drow more realmsian with some nods to connections to the old pantheon.
-Being as that the current design mantra and philosophy is to make everything as "generic" and "interchangable" as possible...
They really aught to do a faiths and pantheons book if they want to make some sense of the massive diecide.
-All there's going to be is space in the 4e FRCS, but as of right now, don't expect anything else.
DDi is a possibility.
Yes it is. But some of us won't be spending $15 a month on it
So they will make dark elven characters possible in the 4e realms as another regular ofshoot of the mechanical 4e elf?
I hope they will make the new realms drow more realmsian with some nods to connections to the old pantheon. Bah still cant stand the diety bodycounts. Wonder how the Cintri halfdrow have done aswell...
I hope the Crinti will survive. Drow as "regular offshoot"??? I would say they're far from being offshoot. Rather outcast shoot :D :D
And deity number is making me angry... hope Lloth will still be around
I hope the Crinti will survive.
I am not sure how. Are they half drow, half darkelf? And with the destrcution of Halruaa and the Shaar what does that mean to the nations near it?
I personally thought the Shining South was the weakest of the areas, but I know it had its advocates
I personally thought the Shining South was the weakest of the areas, but I know it had its advocates
-Every region had it's share of advocates. Somebody always has their hands stepped on.
-Every region had it's share of advocates. Somebody always has their hands stepped on.
true enough
-Anyway, what are the theoretical stats for these "Dark Elves"? Faerie Fire, Darkness are gone, so it seems, as is their Darkvision*. It is likely that they will have Low-Light Vision, as other Elves have this, and perhaps the ability to enter into Reverie, and all of that stuff...
*This "proves" that the Darkvision was either from the casting of the High Magic Ritual that transformed the Dark Elves into Drow, from compassion by the casters, or as a boon granted by Lolth.
Seriously... the HECK?!
I honestly wonder if the new books are designed to kill off the Realms once and for all.
Personally, I have to wonder at the mindset that rewrote the entire backstory of Drow, established over nearly 20 years now.. in order to make them 'less evil black people'.
-Nothing is being rewritten. As I said earlier, in another thread, it has been canon since the beginning that in the Forgotten Realms, Dark Elves were transformed into Drow. It is a fairly new retcon that made the Dark Elves a "branch" of the Green Elves who came to Faerûn circa -28,000 DR, but that's all.
-Nothing is being rewritten. As I said earlier, in another thread, it has been canon since the beginning that in the Forgotten Realms, Dark Elves were transformed into Drow. It is a fairly new retcon that made the Dark Elves a "branch" of the Green Elves who came to Faerûn circa -28,000 DR, but that's all.
But, they weren't PHYSICALLY different from other Elves, and were more like the Dark Elves of other settings. The new, and grossly inappropriate skin color choice, is pretty dang insulting all around.
But, they weren't PHYSICALLY different from other Elves...
-Yes they were. They were Dark Elves. Hence the moniker. Dusky skin, dark hair...
-Yes they were. They were Dark Elves. Hence the moniker. Dusky skin, dark hair...
See, here's where you're making your mistake. The Dark Elves of youre, back when Forgotten Realms was a first edition product, were just evil elves. Period. That's it. End of story. No physical difference.
See, here's where you're making your mistake. The Dark Elves of youre, back when Forgotten Realms was a first edition product, were just evil elves. Period. That's it. End of story. No physical difference.
-If you are going to say things, at least please be informed before saying them.
-Here's a quick timeline, sans dates:
- Dark Elves arrive from Faerie to Realmspace. They are dusky skinned and dark haired, and look very much like the Green Elves (that they were retconned a few months into being a part of). They were never mentioned as good, evil, anything.
- The Dark Elves establish settlements on Faerûn, that eventually become empires. These settlements include Ilythiir and Miyeritar.
- The evil extraplanar powers that the Dark Elves of Ilythiir are consorting with are revealed to the world
- The Elven races from other Elven empires existing at the time convene, and cast an Elven High Magic ritual that causes the Dark Elves to become physically changed, which causes them to flee into the Underdark. They become known as 'Drow', a word that comes from the Elven word 'Dhaerow', which means 'Face of Shadow/Traitor'.
- Lolth fully gains control of Drow society, and it becomes what we know it as now as a result, as opposed to a "looser" society, back when the Drow were Dark Elves.
-For more information, see Elves of Faerûn.
The Elven races from other Elven empires existing at the time convene, and cast an Elven High Magic ritual that causes the Dark Elves to become physically changed, which causes them to flee into the Underdark. They become known as 'Drow', a word that comes from the Elven word 'Dhaerow', which means 'Face of Shadow/Traitor'.
Meaning, yes, that regular ol' dark elves were not physically different from other elves until that time. The new skin color is a brand new invention from out of someone's racist arse.
Meaning, yes, that regular ol' dark elves were not physically different from other elves until that time. The new skin color is a brand new invention from out of someone's racist arse.
-As I just said, yes they were. They were Dark Elves, with dusky skin and brown hair. Gold Elves have olive complexions, with light hair. Moon Elves have light complexions, with dark hair. Star Elves have light complexions with light hair. Green Elves have complexions ranging from light to dusky, with hair ranging the gamut. The transformation into Drow then gave them "onyx" complexions, and "snow white" hair.
-That said, the color black has been associated with evil since the times of the Mesopotamian civilizations.
-As I just said, yes they were. They were Dark Elves, with dusky skin and brown hair.
And you're still wrong. The evil elves were drawn from all the elves, and cursed together. That's part of Evermeet's backstory, and part of why the desire for revenge remains so strong.
But, either way, it does not remotely justify the NEW description of 'African-American Elves' as 'less evil than Drow'.
And you're still wrong. The evil elves were drawn from all the elves, and cursed together. That's part of Evermeet's backstory, and part of why the desire for revenge remains so strong.
-Incorrect. The Drow are Dark Elves who were transformed by Elven High Magic, and banished into the Underdark.
But, either way, it does not remotely justify the NEW description of 'African-American Elves' as 'less evil than Drow'.
-They have never been described as "African-American Elves", nor is the description of Dark Elves "NEW", nor are they necessarily "less evil than Drow".
And you're still wrong. The evil elves were drawn from all the elves, and cursed together. That's part of Evermeet's backstory, and part of why the desire for revenge remains so strong.
But, either way, it does not remotely justify the NEW description of 'African-American Elves' as 'less evil than Drow'.
Read Evermeet. Pre-Descent Ilythiiri are clearly described as darker skinned. It was not the evil elves that were cursed. It was the Ssr-tel-quessir many of whom actually worshipped Corellon.
And really, get your facts straight mate, it is unbeckoming.
Read Evermeet. Pre-Descent Ilythiiri are clearly described as darker skinned. It was not the evil elves that were cursed. It was the Ssr-tel-quessir many of whom actually worshipped Corellon.
And really, get your facts straight mate, it is unbeckoming.
Well, make that Eilistraee (i.e. those from Miyeritar) and we have a deal. "Many" might be a "touch" too many.
Well, the sources are clear enough with regard to whom was transformed, something Cormanthyr and TGHotR (for once) agree upon.
Actually the Miyeritari drow worshipped both Eilistraee and Corellon. And I think Rillifane as well. One of Q'arlynd's ancestors was a Corellon Worshipper.
Point is that we know for certain that they were avid Eilstraeens. We can assume that they worshiped the other members of the Seldarine too, of course, but certain it is not. (At least when it comes to statements such as: "we know that many ...".)
-There's not much on these ancient civilizations, and personally, I prefer it that way.
Yep .. and no. As a historian you'd love to know more, if not everything. Problem is that WotC have just gave themselves a mountain to climb. They have not fully managed to rewrite ... or rather bring the Realms forward from the last edition to 3E/RE. No nigh all that there was has been changed and it will take years to bring the Old Realms into sync with 1480 DR... Of course, they can simply use the reduced versions of an FRCS I and II and III, but whether that would be a good idea? One thing is for sure, (or so it looks) the umpteen regional books did not sell well enough to warrant a continuation: I'd roughly assume that only 1 in 5 gamers (i.e. the DM) bought these books, which isn't that great. Though I obviously have no clue how that pays off for the company. Can the proposed online support make a telling impact? Who knows. I'm someone who likes his stuff in print, professionally done, if possible. Staring aeons at PC ore notebook screens ain't for me ... but I'm not belonging to that new generation of gamers anyway.
Ahem, where were we? Ah yes ... WotC will have their hands full updating the Realms to 4E and 1480 and I would seriously doubt that any life energy will be spent on the past and pre-Spellplague times for years to come.
As a historian you'd love to know more, if not everything.
-Same here. Personally speaking, I say that I don't want to see much because I think I'd personally be disappointed by what was released. Probably regardless of who wrote said material. In my own mind, I have my own "version" of how things were, and that's that. Anything that wasn't that would disappoint me.
Ahem, where were we? Ah yes ... WotC will have their hands full updating the Realms to 4E and 1480 and I would seriously doubt that any life energy will be spent on the past and pre-Spellplague times for years to come.
-Agreed.
I imagine they won't have any spell like abilities, will not have darkvision (obviously), no LA (if that's around in 4e), but I'm fairly certian they will have close to the same ability adjustment. Cha and Dex.
anyone have any thoughts?
-Truthfully, being as AGHotR "retconned" Dark Elves into being "Wild Elves", just look at their stats, and there you go.
-I, personally, don't accept that, so speculate away!
-That said, the color black has been associated with evil since the times of the Mesopotamian civilizations.
Some tropes are better left to the past, though.
Anyway, one thing that's annoying is that now "dark elf" and "drow" can no longer be used interchangibly.
Some tropes are better left to the past, though.
-That's symbolism that began "way back when" and continues to this day. Death, mourning, mystery, night, danger...
Anyway, one thing that's annoying is that now "dark elf" and "drow" can no longer be used interchangibly.
-I know *I* will continue to do so. Things that I don't like, that I don't accept, I use quotation marks. Which is why, if anyone ever notices, I always say "Abeir".
-That's symbolism that began "way back when" and continues to this day. Death, mourning, mystery, night, danger...
Right, but my point was mainly that just because an idea has been around for a long time doesn't mean it's still valid and should be granted reverence (in some cases, an old idea many never have been valid).
Re: Dark elves--yeah, I don't accept the new changes either, but on these boards, people might get confused if we aren't careful.
I noticed "Abeir". ;)
Right, but my point was mainly that just because an idea has been around for a long time doesn't mean it's still valid and should be granted reverence (in some cases, an old idea many never have been valid).
-To unassociated black with the above mentioned concepts, I think it cannot be undone.
Re: Dark elves--yeah, I don't accept the new changes either, but on these boards, people might get confused if we aren't careful.
I noticed "Abeir". ;)
-Astute.
-To unassociated black with the above mentioned concepts, I think it cannot be undone.
Not for some, but others can make an effort not to fall back on ancient (and often faulty) tropes.
Will the Sworddancer of Eilistraee make it, their organisation could still be in place right? Or shall we see a new ranger paragon path for Miyeritari Gladerunners? Perhaps they get a few special racial feats to distinguish themselves from "eladrin". Would they also get fey step? I think the elven accuracy from green elves fits them better, but the moon elf and sun elf stats represent a miyeritari or eilistraean better.
BTW Just finished Blackstaff. The last remaining sharn get to have the Blackstaffs blessing and can guard the new settlement in the High Moor in their own form due to Eilistraees sacrifice.
Not for some, but others can make an effort not to fall back on ancient (and often faulty) tropes.
-Not to be argumentative, but I don't see how associating black with such concepts would be "faulty".
So what Paragon Paths should we get to expect from the new Miyeritari and Eilistraean elves?
Will the Sworddancer of Eilistraee make it, their organisation could still be in place right?
Not sure, but I doubt they will have any sworddancer
Dark Elves will just be Eladrin or Elves. My bet goes to Eladrin. The write-up will be on the drow who will be like they are in the MM only with several racial feats and maybe a PrP or two.
-Being as that Dark Elves are really Green/"Wild" Elves, they should be 'Elves', not "Eladrin" (Sun/Moon/Star Elves).
And Lolth is a dark immortal fey herself. But actually giving her more ties the Unseelie and the Queen of Air and Darkness doesn't "feel" right somehow. I think I read she did get banished for good from the fey divine realms with that new sister story of her in core.
And by the way the Drow in the MM have Darkvision. Maybe the Dark Elves will be Just like Normal Elves where the Drow will of course be similar to the Drow in the MM.
Should their not be 2 distinct Races now? Dark Elves and Drow?
-Yes...This is kinda what the entire point of theorizing stats for Dark Elves implies. ;)
Wouldn't it be kind of ... strange .... if you kill off half a dozen or so deities because of them causing trouble to the minds of the casual gamer, only to confuse him or her with another elven subrace afterwards?
-That's it! That's WotC's gameplan! Confuse everyone, and then when they're in a confused stupor, convince them to buy new products.
And I theorised dark elves as eladrin because the stats fit better.
They are not making any subraces. The Eladrin entry in MM specifically mentions that Eladrin are also known as high, moon, sun or star elves.
And I theorised dark elves as eladrin because the stats fit better.
Ha! Just wait for the next FRCS or Races of Faerûn! As long as books sell and there is a demand (I'd assume that the new dark elves will be a hit amongst the Drizzt followers), you will get supplements! I mean, there are surely some cool ability trees solely for dark elves in someone's locker!
Mind you the dark elves have lost all spell-like abilities so they really are just like the rest of the elves now. I am curious how shocked they will be when they will start establishing subtle mental contact with other elves. . .
I may be very ignorant, but could someone explain all of this to me. All I know is that some of the drow have somehow been redeemed to be 'dark elves' now. How did this come to happen, and when? Was it before 4E?
Ach well, just read the 24odd pages of the Ascendancy of the Last - thread. (In essence, because of a part-reversal of the magics that turned the dark elves of old into drow and drove them beneath the surface, some of them have been turned back into pre-Descent "dark elves", i.e. the new brown version. (BTW, I for one never envisaged them with a chocolate-skin, rather a lighter shade of black -> gray.)
;)
I prefer visualizing the dark elves as grayish, as you said, rather than brown.
And that has nothing to do with the brown skin colour of our world, which is just as nice as any other.
Ach well, just read the 24odd pages of the Ascendancy of the Last - thread. (In essence, because of a part-reversal of the magics that turned the dark elves of old into drow and drove them beneath the surface, some of them have been turned back into pre-Descent "dark elves", i.e. the new brown version. (BTW, I for one never envisaged them with a chocolate-skin, rather a lighter shade of black -> gray.)
-Dusky.
".. Hi, What's your name? ... He doesn't say anything, because he's a doll."
I never thought their hair was brown or black though. I thought it was still white. I don't remember anything about the high magic spell that turned dark elves into drow mentioning anything about their hair turning white. I thought it just said something along the lines of "their skin was turned a color to match their dark hearts: black."
I never thought their hair was brown or black though. I thought it was still white.
I, too, thought dark elf hair had always been white.
I, too, thought dark elf hair had always been white.
Or yellowish at old age.
-Well, being as that it is seeming that there is no more Eilistraee...
exactly
I always thought dark elves were brown skinned (a pic of elves fighting in the Crown Wars shows up in Lost Empires of Faerun. One has brown skin. Also, a lot of bad "drow" art had brown skin instead of black. Not that that would be any indicator, but I think it got the designers used to the idea of brown skin dark elves).
I never thought their hair was brown or black though. I thought it was still white. I don't remember anything about the high magic spell that turned dark elves into drow mentioning anything about their hair turning white. I thought it just said something along the lines of "their skin was turned a color to match their dark hearts: black."
See Underdark, the 3.5E supplement.
Drow typically have skin from dark greyish to inky black, and hair that is either white, silver or yellow.
Brownish-skinned drow are a quirk of late 1E and early 2E artwork.
Also, a lot of bad "drow" art had brown skin instead of black. Not that that would be any indicator, but I think it got the designers used to the idea of brown skin dark elves).
-It's been said many times, but artists/inkers often avoided using pure black in art, as it blocked details, such as outline lines, and blotted things. In short.
Or yellowish at old age.
-Or if they smoked.
-Or if they smoked.
You know, that probably explains some of the 2E art for Lolth. :D
What I wonder is what more they ill get in a proper write-up, not to mention what racial feats will be available.
Ed Greenwood told us in The Drow of the Underdark how drow might be coloured, skin, hair, eyes ... and if there are difference he also gave reasons for that. Cormanthyr (simple download it from the official site and search for "dusky") tells us how the dark elves pre-Descent looked like.
You know, once I read about Cavatina and Q'arlynd and remembered Eilistraee too, I heard ... "Brown girl in the ring" ... in my head. Ain't that shocking?
If I want good drow art, I go and check out Todd Lockwood. Whether Wizards or Green Ronin stuff, he takes some beating.
-I have always liked his art.
-No Nightmasks, either.
why is that?
why is that?
-No more Eilistraee.
-No more Eilistraee.
so what? they are vampire theives' guild
so what? they are vampire theives' guild
I think LK means Nightshadows (aka "The Masked"), the former priests of Vhaeraun - and later of Eilistraee after she absorbed his portfolio and became the "Masked Lady". ;)
I guess he meantDarkmasks(the specialty priests of Vhaerun)
Nightshadows, or simply "The Masked". ;)
Yeah yeah they used to be darkmasks though and may still be in my campaign. If the rest of the FRCG is like the Amn article my upcoming campaign FR will be at the Year of Deaths Unmourned right in the middle of the Spellplague chaos and with a lot of changes to what has happened. And the Masked Lady will be there;)
Well, Darkmasks were a specific sub-type of Nightshadow... not just priests, but specialty priests with levels in rogue (usually). On the whole, though, the clergy were Nightshadows. ;)
Individual Nightshadows of very high rank often had unique titles.
Rare priestesses that had forsaken Lolth to side with Vhaeraun were "Masked Traitors".
Frankly, I thought that there was a lot of potential for the new Masked Lady, if they'd shifted her from good to neutral and given her a few of Vhaeraun's traits. It's a shame she was caught in the crossfire.
-More information about all of this can be found in Elves of Faerûn! Or, as Merrik likes to call it, "Faerun "جنها
yeah I love that supplement
yeah I love that supplement
-I figured you did.
Maybe its not so bad though, or at least I hope it isnt. If you can still play a REAL Drow without being a cliché example of evil, and having to worship Lolth, Ill be happy. If a godless, morally ambivalent and eccentric Drow wizard is still on the cards, I might just hold on activating the doomsday device for a while longer. But still, that nagging thought that the Drow didn’t always look the way they did has tainted them as a race for me. I always associated “cursed with dark skin” to those Dunmer from the Elder Scrolls video games.
I was quite shocked by this "Dark Elf" (brown skin, dark hair, dark eyes) revelation. It appears I was mistaken all along, and Drow actually didnt always look the way they did from the beginning. I assumed Araushnee, Vhaeraun and Eilistraee all had onyx skin and white hair, so naturally the Drow did too, following the pattern of other Elves resembling a Seldarine member. I cant remember if perhaps I just read it in Evermeet, but whatever the cause, I was happy living in “ignorance”.
-Yes, this was all in Evermeet: Island of the Elves
Either way, I hate this rubbish "cursed appearance" business and I hate this "reversal" of it even more. Yeah okay, we will just ignore the millennia that have passed with the race being this way and change them "back" to being brown skinned dark hair/eyes at the drop of a hat, even though I cant see any purpose other than aesthetic.
-As you said, it is only aesthetic. An evil individual who happens to transform, because of his bloodline, isn't going to suddenly become "good". Drow are evil because of society, not by birth. So, changing one's physical make-up isn't going to change a thing.
Then there is that whole "corrupted by birth" shtick? So to play a REAL Drow now do you have to be a corrupted, evil Lolth worshipper? It seems to me the criteria for being turned back into a brown skinned Elf is either Eilistraee worshipping or born of that "non-corrupted" family, right? If so, I can at least rest easy as I wouldn’t want to play a Dark Elf even without having to suffer those circumstances.
-Right. Mind you, the absurdity of the "corrupted by birth" shtick has been logged and discussed in this, and the Ascendancy of the Last thread. I don't think anyone buys it. That said, it is canon, so it's official. That doesn't mean we have to personally accept it, however.
Im just irate, because even if my understanding of the Drow was wrong from the get go, I liked the way the were. Suggesting the Drow werent always Onyx skinned, white haired and red eyed to me is like saying Dwarves were once a hairless folk.
-Well, they weren't. This goes way back to 2e lore: Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves, and is central to the story of the Drow in Faerûn.
-Well, they weren't. This goes way back to 2e lore: Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves, and is central to the story of the Drow in Faerûn.
I personally wouldnt say it was "central" to the story of the Drow. Id say it was a pathetic and useless, not to mention unnecessary side effect of what I consider was really central: the Drow being punished for their actions and the deities they worshipped once the Crown wars had finished. All that talk about the Descent and how they were driven into the Underdark seemed more important than the genius idea of "why dont we change their appearance". I figured the “ceased to be Elves and instead became Drow” was more an internal change and not a physical one.
But I guess when you arent sure, youll go for the idea that you think doesn’t suck, and I guess that’s just what I did.
I personally wouldnt say it was "central" to the story of the Drow.
-Yes, yes it was central. Remember, the story of the Drow begins in -28,000 when they first came from Faerie to Realmspace. It was only in -10,000 that they became Drow. All of this dates back far before this particular novel. I'd recommend you check the relevant sources (C:EoE being one of them, which can be downloaded for free from the WotC website).
-Yes, I understand that. I am saying that, in the Forgotten Realms, the original Dark Elves were dusky skinned, with dark hair. They did not resemble Drow. During the Descent of the Drow, their outer forms transformed, to reflect the darkness that was in their hearts, from embracing Lolth. Following this, taking into account the outrageous and absurd events in Ascendancy of the Last, the evil of Lolth has been purged from certain Drow, thus transforming them back into their original states.
I dont think we really need to go any further here, since you have told me pretty well that it was this way with the Drow all along. (Even though Im pretty sure the only thing as players we have ever seen of the Drow is onyx skinned type, weakening the point behind that old lore and the strange desire to "return" to it if you ask me). Of course I have made my point that I think the idea in the first place, not to mention returning to it, sucks majorly too. As far as I was aware, the early Drow in FR were simply another "villain race", right? And since then they have become something more, only now a large portion have been changed "back" into something they never really were outside of the realms history. At least how I see it.
Like I said, I can only hope a large enough amount of things remain to play as a proper Drow still with the freedom as before. If not, well I think that will have definitely nailed the coffin lid on Forgotten Realms for me (yeah, I like the Drow that much).
As far as I was aware, the early Drow in FR were simply another "villain race", right?
-Not really, no. They were Drow.
And since then they have become something more, only now a large portion have been changed "back" into something they never really were outside of the realms history. At least how I see it.
-A large portion, no. No more than 23%.
-As I just said, yes they were. They were Dark Elves, with dusky skin and brown hair. Gold Elves have olive complexions, with light hair. Moon Elves have light complexions, with dark hair. Star Elves have light complexions with light hair. Green Elves have complexions ranging from light to dusky, with hair ranging the gamut. The transformation into Drow then gave them "onyx" complexions, and "snow white" hair.
-That said, the color black has been associated with evil since the times of the Mesopotamian civilizations.
Good thing that hasn't held true with elves in general, though, since it's not like moon elves are generally the nicest folk and gold elves and other darker elves are arrogant or xenophobic (or downright murderous like drow). Phew.
Good thing that hasn't held true with elves in general, though, since it's not like moon elves are generally the nicest folk and gold elves and other darker elves are arrogant or xenophobic (or downright murderous like drow). Phew.
-The notion that skin color determines behavior was never true anywhere.
Well of course not, duh. Fiends are not darker in general, and celestials usually tend towards the more shadowy colors. White isn't associated with good and black with evil, etc. Drow are black purely by coincidence, and the Chosen of Mystra are of different skin tones. FR is full of black (human black) heroes. Green elves aren't brown because they're more savage. Hell, Faerûnian deities aren't all white when depicted.
-And, of course, none of that is true in the Forgotten Realms. ;)
Uh huh.
-Each one of these statements are true/the inherent notion you are claiming is false:
- Drow are black purely by coincidence...
- the Chosen of Mystra are of different skin tones...
- FR is full of black (human black) heroes...
- Green elves aren't brown because they're more savage...
- Hell, Faerûnian deities aren't all white when depicted...
Next you're telling me that there's a black deity of magic and all the major good guys don't look caucasian!
Uh. Huh.
Next you're telling me that there's a black deity of magic and all the major good guys don't look caucasian!
-Let's go through things point by point, then:
Drow are black purely by coincidence...
-The Drow were transformed into their current state, as that their physical forms would match the darkness in their hearts. Where's the racist notion?
the Chosen of Mystra are of different skin tones...
-Qilue has the ebony skin of a Drow, and Alvaerele Tasundrym has the blueish skin of a Moon Elf.
FR is full of black (human black) heroes...
-Chult is home to numerous dark skinned Humans, as is Turmish, Calimshan, the Anauroch, and numerous other regions. To name a single one, Ruha, the Beduine Harper, is certainly a hero.
Green elves aren't brown because they're more savage...
-The Wood/"Wild" Elves were created in the image of their creator, just as all of the other Elven subraces- The Dark Elves created in the image of Araushnee, the Aquatic Elves created in the image of Deep Sashelas, the Avariel created in the image of Aerdrie Faenya, and so on.
Hell, Faerûnian deities aren't all white when depicted...
-Taking a quick gander at the 'major' and 'minor' members of the "Faerûnian Pantheon" Faiths and Pantheons, Bane, Eilistraee, Helm, Lolth, Malar, Mask, Silvanus, Umberlee, Auril, Akadi, Gargauth, Grumbar, Istishia, Jergal, Nobanion, and Ubtao.
-The Drow were transformed into their current state, as that their physical forms would match the darkness in their hearts. Where's the racist notion?
Good thing the pure of heart elves remained white and shiny! Except those grimy wild elves, but they rarely have a civilization of their own so whatever.
-Qilue has the ebony skin of a Drow, and Alvaerele Tasundrym has the blueish skin of a Moon Elf.
Qilue is dead, forever dead. Alvaerele who?
-Chult is home to numerous dark skinned Humans, as is Turmish, Calimshan, the Anauroch, and numerous other regions. To name a single one, Ruha, the Beduine Harper, is certainly a hero.
Again, Ruha who? Chult is a jungle filled with barbarians living in huts. Turami are a sidenote. Calimshites are white. Anauroch is a desert full of stupid barbarians. Numerous other regions?
-The Wood/"Wild" Elves were created in the image of their creator, just as all of the other Elven subraces- The Dark Elves created in the image of Araushnee, the Aquatic Elves created in the image of Deep Sashelas, the Avariel created in the image of Aerdrie Faenya, and so on.
Yeah, and it just happens that the blackest elves are evil, the brown elves are dumb, the bronzy-olive skinned ones are semi-evil, and the shiny white ones are the friendliest and goodest.
-Taking a quick gander at the 'major' and 'minor' members of the "Faerûnian Pantheon" Faiths and Pantheons, Bane, Eilistraee, Helm, Lolth, Malar, Mask, Silvanus, Umberlee, Auril, Akadi, Gargauth, Grumbar, Istishia, Jergal, Nobanion, and Ubtao.
Bane = inhuman, Eilistraee = dead, Helm = white, Lolth = evil, Malar = animal, Mask = white, Silvanus = white, Umberlee = white, Auril = whitest, Akadi = white, Gargauth = devil, Grumbar = white rock, Istishia = white, Jergal = insect, Nobanion = furry, Ubtao = in a coma leeched by Auril (Teh White Queen).
Yeah, and it just happens that the blackest elves are evil, the brown elves are dumb, the bronzy-olive skinned ones are semi-evil, and the shiny white ones are the friendliest and goodest.
Actually, the moon elves (who have a bluish tint to their skin) have the greatest proportion of good among their number. The blondish/golden sun elves are usually depicted as highly arrogant, dismissive of nonelves, and have a fair number of seriously evil members among them (far more so than moon elves). The brown elves, with Q'arlynd and many other wizards among their number, couldn't really be considered dumb (although certainly selfish). Yes, the pitch black colored drow are "evil", but they were transformed by magic from brownish to pitch black skin to "reflect their dhaerrow status". Pitch black isn't really a real-world skin tone, after all.
Well, I'm glad we at least got black paladin deities. And sun deities that are white even though they're deities of sun, which makes your skin dark.
Actually, the moon elves (who have a bluish tint to their skin) have the greatest proportion of good among their number.
Also called silver elves, the have fair skin (sometimes tinged with blue)
Well of course they're the goodest since their skin is so pearly white.
The blondish/golden sun elves are usually depicted as highly arrogant, dismissive of nonelves, and have a fair number of seriously evil members among them (far more so than moon elves).
Also called gold elves, they have bronze skin
Yeah, darker they get...
The brown elves, with Q'arlynd and many other wizards among their number, couldn't really be considered dumb (although certainly selfish).
+2 Dexterity, -2 Intelligence
Yes, the pitch black colored drow are "evil", but they were transformed by magic from brownish to pitch black skin to "reflect their dhaerrow status". Pitch black isn't really a real-world skin tone, after all.
Yeah, good thing they were saved from the real world skin tone brown, small brains to fantasy black skin and magical prowess.
Well of course they're the goodest since their skin is so pearly white.
Yeah, darker they get...
Yeah, good thing they were saved from the real world skin tone brown, small brains to fantasy black skin and magical prowess.
You're reading way too much into this.
Now, everyone can have their multi-ethnic parties while the Drow are products of Hell spawned Damnation that are born wailing blasphemies.
-Not really, no. They were Drow.
Im not even going to bother with this. The state the Drow as a race have always been in says volumes about what they were originally for.
--A large portion, no. No more than 23%.
Right, just under a quarter of an entire race. Not large at all.
Im not even going to bother with this. The state the Drow as a race have always been in says volumes about what they were originally for.
-The Drow race was not always in the state it is currently in. When the Dark Elves first came to Realmspace, in -28,000 their culture and society was nothing like it is today.
Right, just under a quarter of an entire race. Not large at all.
-This figure simply represents the Drow who do not hold Lolth as their patron. Divine this number by Eilistraee, Kiaransalee, Ghaunadaur, Shar, and Vhaeraun, and there's your exact percentage.
-The Drow race was not always in the state it is currently in. When the Dark Elves first came to Realmspace, in -28,000 their culture and society was nothing like it is today.
I dont recall ever seeing that period getting as large a focus of current gaming attention. Like I said, outside of FR history, the only focus on the Drow has been in their "cursed" state, which is definitely all I have ever known of the Drow outside of some of the lore. Its all well and good saying that, but if its only "on paper" so to speak, I dont see how its at all relevant. I mean after all, why was that scimitar wielding Drow ranger such an abnormality in the first place? I dont recall people brushing it off by saying "Well, hes only being like his ancestors once were".
-This figure simply represents the Drow who do not hold Lolth as their patron. Divine this number by Eilistraee, Kiaransalee, Ghaunadaur, Shar, and Vhaeraun, and there's your exact percentage.
Not forgetting the Lady Penitent series focusing strongly on how much of that percentage came into Eilistraee's possession.
I dont recall ever seeing that period getting as large a focus of current gaming attention.
-As I said, review the relevant sources, which include Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves, Evermeet: Island of the Elves, Elves of Evermeet, Lost Empires of Faerûn, and Elves of Faerûn.
Like I said, outside of FR history, the only focus on the Drow has been in their "cursed" state, which is definitely all I have ever known of the Drow outside of some of the lore.
-Right. Sure. As I said to someone else on the very same matter, this has no impact on the Forgotten Realms, however. Drow in Greyhawk =/= Drow in the Forgotten Realms =/= Drow in Eberron...
I mean after all, why was that scimitar wielding Drow ranger such an abnormality in the first place? I dont recall people brushing it off by saying "Well, hes only being like his ancestors once were".
-Because it is rare for a child to reject the teachings that society instills in him/her.
-Drizzt Do'Urden is not "being like his ancestors once were", as he was not transformed, and thus, doesn't have a heritage dating back to Ancient Miyeritar, nor was he a follower of Eilistraee.
Not forgetting the Lady Penitent series focusing strongly on how much of that percentage came into Eilistraee's possession.
-Which translates into a small minority of the total population, not a "large portion".
-As I said, review the relevant sources, which include Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves, Evermeet: Island of the Elves, Elves of Evermeet, Lost Empires of Faerûn, and Elves of Faerûn.
As I said, relevant sources a lot of the time dont really count for jack compared to what was actually being played, and is and will be. I don’t consider it a freak occurrence that I have had people actually get irritated at the mention of the Drow and how they wish they were all just villains like they used to be.
-Right. Sure. As I said to someone else on the very same matter, this has no impact on the Forgotten Realms, however. Drow in Greyhawk =/= Drow in the Forgotten Realms =/= Drow in Eberron...
So what is your point exactly? Because FR said "well they were brown elves once and were good for a little bit you see" that its somehow going to exempt them from the fact that the Drow in FR are one of the major creams of evil? And yet are labelled as an entire race as such? Humans should get the same treatment, right? Thayans are (were? Im not too sure what happened to Thay myself) human? Humans commit the same atrocities as the Drow?
I was really starting to enjoy the Drow as a race because of how different they were from simple onyx skinned matriarchal Lolth worshippers. And then they had to make a total separation of all the apparently "non-evil" Drow, and turn them back into something which hasnt been around for millennia.
-Because it is rare for a child to reject the teachings that society instills in him/her.
-Drizzt Do'Urden is not "being like his ancestors once were", as he was not transformed, and thus, doesn't have a heritage dating back to Ancient Miyeritar, nor was he a follower of Eilistraee.
That point was in reference to when the Crystal Shard first came out and Drizzt appeared for the first time, in 1988 I think? Im almost certain it was deemed a "strange" choice for a character at the time, right? Personally, as much as I have a love/hate relationship with Drizzt, I hope he stays as he always was and provides an extremely vocal criticism of this whole thing. That would at least provide a sliver of hope. Im actually not even sure if already he did in The Orc King?
-Which translates into a small minority of the total population, not a "large portion".
I dont know, it sounds like thats altogether weakening these sources you constantly keep citing about the Drow. Your arguing about how the Drow were once a very different folk while simultaneously pointing out how much has recently been done to draw a line between that and what they are now? While Orcs are establishing cities, Im getting the impression the Drow are being prepped to be made up as full on villains to be exterminated by the player, while all the goody-goody dark elfs are totally free of the stigma.
By the way since someone called wild elves dumb, the greatest elven mage in the history of Faerun is arguably the wild elven girl that led the ritual of the Sundering. I mean if sun elven high magi chose her to lead their greatest work, she must have been something else.
-Starleaf
Nihl: At this point, I have no clue as to what you are trying to argue. All I can say is that you should acquaint yourself better with the history of the race, and perhaps some of your concerns/criticisms/points will make more sense, in light of it.
Nihl: At this point, I have no clue as to what you are trying to argue. All I can say is that you should acquaint yourself better with the history of the race, and perhaps some of your concerns/criticisms/points will make more sense, in light of it.
Im arguing that since all I have ever been given the opportunity to currently know and play in the Forgotten Realms as the “Drow” is exactly that, since I starting taking some interest that particular race, not “Dark Elves”. They are hardly the most well thought out race I admit but I still thought there was some freedom and flexibility to them that could be enjoyed. Now it seems a large portion of that flexibility has been torn off and turned into something that was written as history, not something I played or experienced, leaving the Drow that I liked looking a lot less flexible.
Im sorry if that came across as hard to understand, but like I said, your insistence on both waving sources in my face to show the Drow (as Dark Elves) were once very different, and also continuing to operate along what I mentioned above in that all but a "small minority" have been pigeon holed into evil Lolth worshipper territory left me somewhat disoriented.
I have seen others here irritated at the fact that something that originally drew them to the Drow as a race has been chewed up and spat out as something very different. Hardly a unique complaint for the Realms at the moment I suppose.
-I have always liked his art.
Yeah he is good. There are some real good ones in the new Core set like Dan Scott, Lee Moyer and howard lyon
If you want to see what will most likely be the FR Drow look on 276 of the 4E MM.
Yeah he is good. There are some real good ones in the new Core set like Dan Scott, Lee Moyer and howard lyon
-At first, I liked the new artwork. But, I don't like it too much anymore. It's so good that, at times, the images look like photographs. That art style has done the opposite of grown on me, in the past couple of months. I don't buy comic books (X-Men) anymore because of it.
every thing i read on drow's ancestors made it clear to em taht theyw ere brown skinned with white hair , wholely differnt form "green elves" who are tanned skinned with black and or green hair.
-Incorrect. Dark Elves are/were Green/"Wild" Elves. See AGHotR.
Umm, the drow are already in the back of the Monster Manual book for easy conversion to a player race.
If you want to see what will most likely be the FR Drow look on 276 of the 4E MM.
-Ah, but we are discussing Dark Elves, not Drow.
-Alright...The fact that so much was written as "unplayable" history doesn't make it any less valid. In fact, it's more valid, being history, and inherent to the setting itself, rather than one (or ten or a hundred, or whatever) person's take on things.
I dunno, I thought you kind of expressed a slightly similar opinion in the Ascendancy of the Last thread when you said this:
-But, we didn't, which is why people are so blase about said events. The Black Plague killed 1/3 of Europe thousands of years ago. You read that in a history book, acknowledge it, and shrug. Now, image if the Black Plague killed 1/3 of Europe next year. See how you'd react differently? Same here.
The old Dark Elves with brown skin were not important to how I was enjoying the Drow, and very little of what I read or played made reference to it. I knew the Drow acknowledged they once dwelled above with their "Faerie cousins" and were driven underground by them, but I never saw them directly speak about how they changed physically. Im not saying I dont believe it, Im saying I dont, and didnt care. I was living in the "now" as far as the Drow were concerned.
BTW, LK, the colours thing is a bit edgy, and you probably know that. You do find your "coloured people" in there, but you "have to look" for them. Likewise, if you want female rulers or, let's say "movers and shakers", you have to look for those too - in a whole FR scale. That is not the case with male "M&Sers". People could jump at that and say that there's a gender problem ... others will say it was unintentional. I remember a very livid debate about why the drow society was intentionally made up to be ruled by more powerful female black folk and not be males or gender-equality. Somesuch should make you* stop and think again. Think about what we are actually talking about.
*Nay, not just you LK, but all those taking an issue here. ;)
As for history. Folks, do keep in mind that when talking about the Descent and some skin colours, we talk about events 13,000 years back. That's roughly thrice the time of ancient Egypt's existence, 13times the time of ancient Rome's existence. It's hardly of any importance these days, at least to the "casual" gamer. And while we are at it ... being a historian, I am quite interested in e.g. Roman history, i.e. anything inbetween 753 BCE and 450 CE. If people now start telling me about Rome of the Middle Ages, it is interesting at best, boring at worst. And that is much like I care for the current drow-into-dark-elf retransformation stuff of LP III. Which, of course, shall not stop people from debating it.
Would the dark elves automatically use PHB "elf" stats? I'm a little fuzzy on the way, way, waaaay back FR elven history so I'm not here taking shots at anyone, just thinking and questioning out loud.
- If the 4e core elven history (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20071221) matches FR elven history, then the dark elves are actually members of the original race before the elf/eladrin split (which we know little about, let alone have stats for).
- If in the FR elven history beginnings we had "eladrin" elves, "elf" elves, and dark elves (i.e., pre-Lolth "drow" elves)...and then the dark elves were banished and transformed into "drow" elves...and now some of them are transformed back...then the the dark elves are again members of one of the original three, the dark elves (i.e., pre-Lolth "drow" elves). Why wouldn't we then use the MM "drow" stats with something in place of "Lolthtouched" abilities and maybe the Intimidate bonus as well?
- If in the FR elven history beginnings we had just "eladrin" elves and "elf" elves (with their split being original or prehistoric), and the dark elves were just a subset of one of these that didn't stand out as different until......they got banished as a whole and transformed into "drow" elves...and now some of them are transformed back...then I see how/why they would use the stats of PHB "elf" elves. Technically they might also or instead use "eladrin" elf stats, but what with the Green Elf references brought up (which I don't recall very well) I'm guessing that's contradicted in lore?
Anyway, regardless of what mechanics are used for the dark elves, they are dark (but not jet) skinned, dark haired, dark eyed, and stealthy, yes? PHB "elf" elf could fit that just fine. I think, though, that it'd be cool if they also retained darkvision and were nocturnal.
Actually, in general I think the coolest option might be to have them use "drow" mechanics with a sub for the Lolthtouched abilities (& probably Intimidate).Clarifications on the history? Thoughts on their present traits? Ideas for their current mechanics?
Edit: I think I'm going to ask a dev, too.
I dunno, I thought you kind of expressed a slightly similar opinion in the Ascendancy of the Last thread when you said this:
-That was said in response to why people take things in novels "personally", when in the context of the setting, similar things have happened before.
BTW, LK, the colours thing is a bit edgy, and you probably know that.
-Not particularly, no. People are free to come to their own conclusions, but most people "come to the table", so to speak, on this issue with either an agenda, or preconceived notions. Concerning all of the things that Mula brought up, for example, all were debunked as either incorrect, or misguided.
Would the dark elves automatically use PHB "elf" stats? I'm a little fuzzy on the way, way, waaaay back FR elven history so I'm not here taking shots at anyone, just thinking and questioning out loud.
-Yes. Dark Elves have been retconned into simply being Green/"Wild" Elves. As such, when the Drow who transformed back into their original forms transformed, they'd become Green/"Wild" Elves. In 4e, Green/"Wild" Elves would have 'Elf' stats.
If the 4e core elven history (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20071221) matches FR elven history, then the dark elves are actually members of the original race before the elf/eladrin split (which we know little about, let alone have stats for).
-It's not. "Core" history and Forgotten Realms history are apples and oranges. The history of the Elven race in Realmspace can be read about in A Grand History of the Realms, and/or Elves of Faerûn.
If in the FR elven history beginnings we had "eladrin" elves, "elf" elves, and dark elves (i.e., pre-Lolth "drow" elves)...and then the dark elves were banished and transformed into "drow" elves...and now some of them are transformed back...then the the dark elves are again members of one of the original three, the dark elves (i.e., pre-Lolth "drow" elves). Why wouldn't we then use the MM "drow" stats with something in place of "Lolthtouched" abilities and maybe the Intimidate bonus as well?
-Because Drow entails the race 'Drow'. Dark Elf = Drow. Drow have plenty of abilities that Dark Elves do not (Darkvision, Faerie Fire, Darkness, etc.)
If in the FR elven history beginnings we had just "eladrin" elves and "elf" elves (with their split being original or prehistoric), and the dark elves were just a subset of one of these that didn't stand out as different until......they got banished as a whole and transformed into "drow" elves...and now some of them are transformed back...then I see how/why they would use the stats of PHB "elf" elves. Technically they might also or instead use "eladrin" elf stats, but what with the Green Elf references brought up (which I don't recall very well) I'm guessing that's contradicted in lore?
-Dark Elves were always though of (by the majority of us) to be a seperate Elven subrace. In AGHotR, this was "retconned" (Not really, but at the same time, really), and Dark Elves became a branch of the Green/"Wild" Elves who came to Realmspace in -28,000 DR.
Anyway, regardless of what mechanics are used for the dark elves, they are dark (but not jet) skinned, dark haired, dark eyed, and stealthy, yes?
-Dusky skinned (olive, gray, brown), dark haired (brown, black, red, even)...
I think, though, that it'd be cool if they also retained darkvision and were nocturnal.
-We know as a fact that the Dark Elves do not have Darkvision.
So the dark elves are like normal elves with no Dark vision but drow still keep it?
-Yes. Dark Elves are Green/"Wild" Elves. They don't have Darkvision. A scene in Ascendancy of the Last confirmed that Dark Elves don't have Darkvision.
Chult is a jungle filled with barbarians living in huts.
And Mezro, a city.
Calimshites are white.
No.
Just enjoying my white Netherese magi here. And pictures of Sune and Hanali as black. Azuth is pretty ghetto too.
You know, the pic of Sune in F&P is white, but her text mentions that she could appear as having just about any skin color.
-Deities are globs of divine energy. Their appearances vary, being as that they don't have appearances.
I'm inclined to agree.
A deity can look however it wants to.You know, the pic of Sune in F&P is white, but her text mentions that she could appear as having just about any skin color.
I know, but she's always white when depicted.
I'm inclined to agree.
-That's how it works.
And Mezro, a city.
Compares well to places like Waterdeep, Silverymoon, Baldur's Gate... you name it.
No.
Yuh-uh. Calimshites are Arabs and Arabs are considered caucasian.
Compares well to places like Waterdeep, Silverymoon, Baldur's Gate... you name it.
Your point? You left out Mezro because it would have ruined your argument.
Yuh-uh. Calimshites are Arabs and Arabs are considered caucasian.
No they aren't. They are a fantasy race, and they have dark skin.
Your point? You left out Mezro because it would have ruined your argument.
My point is that Chultans, by far, are your typical savage blacks with hardly any advanced culture like the lighter people of Faerûn have.
No they aren't. They are a fantasy race, and they have dark skin.
Yeah, Artemis is real dark.
Yeah, Artemis is real dark.
-Entreri isn't fully Calashite, either.
Hi. Can we talk about "Dark Elf Possibilities" again?
Would the dark elves automatically use PHB "elf" stats? I'm a little fuzzy on the way, way, waaaay back FR elven history so I'm not here taking shots at anyone, just thinking and questioning out loud.
- If the 4e core elven history (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20071221) matches FR elven history, then the dark elves are actually members of the original race before the elf/eladrin split (which we know little about, let alone have stats for).
- If in the FR elven history beginnings we had "eladrin" elves, "elf" elves, and dark elves (i.e., pre-Lolth "drow" elves)...and then the dark elves were banished and transformed into "drow" elves...and now some of them are transformed back...then the the dark elves are again members of one of the original three, the dark elves (i.e., pre-Lolth "drow" elves). Why wouldn't we then use the MM "drow" stats with something in place of "Lolthtouched" abilities and maybe the Intimidate bonus as well?
- If in the FR elven history beginnings we had just "eladrin" elves and "elf" elves (with their split being original or prehistoric), and the dark elves were just a subset of one of these that didn't stand out as different until......they got banished as a whole and transformed into "drow" elves...and now some of them are transformed back...then I see how/why they would use the stats of PHB "elf" elves. Technically they might also or instead use "eladrin" elf stats, but what with the Green Elf references brought up (which I don't recall very well) I'm guessing that's contradicted in lore?
Anyway, regardless of what mechanics are used for the dark elves, they are dark (but not jet) skinned, dark haired, dark eyed, and stealthy, yes? PHB "elf" elf could fit that just fine. I think, though, that it'd be cool if they also retained darkvision and were nocturnal.
Clarifications on the history? Thoughts on their present traits? Ideas for their current mechanics?
Edit: I think I'm going to ask a dev, too.
It has, IMHO, been said already, before it all got diverted and warped and racial and whatnot. We have no clue yet how the 4E "dark elves" will look like - in game terms. Or whether they actually get a different write-up at all. I would suspect that the FRCS or an upcoming 4E Races of Faerûn will have a few subrace specials (abilities trees or HD related stuff), but who knows whether or when this will take place.
I for one will not change to 4E and thus can and will only draw upon older stuff. And as far as I know, we have but a handful of sources telling us of the original FR dark elves pre Descent and none better than Cormanthyr - Empire of Elves. And that passage has been cited (by me alone) about a dozen times in recent weeks:
While the original Dark Elves from before the Crown Wars were merely dusky elves with pale hair, the drow of the Underdark have, over the millennia of exile, darkened to obsidian and taken on their more familiar visages as enemies.
Cormanthyr,. p.126
I have - pre-LP - never ever come accross any word on brown or dark hair before. Furthermore, I do expect that there are/were indeed shades in skin and hair colour. "Dusky" means "darkish" / "shadowy" and can be related to nigh any "related" colour. Is brown "dusky"? Not in my opinion. I'd go for dark grey to describe that. But coming to think of it, TGHotR got us underway with this in turning the "dark elves" of old into green elves and "brown" is far more a natural colour for people living in the wilds than "grey" would be. If that was a line of thought.
Anyway, I think it has been intimated by the designers (was it Ed himself) before that the original "dark elves" differed only in colour from their other surface cousins. If anything, I always linked them more to the sun elves than the wild elves, given that their history is far more like that of civilized nations than wild ones. Of course, as I said before, they had a few thousand years to develop their society after their arrival on Toril.
NB: LK ... my "edgy" remark regarding the colours was one pointing at the CoC of the board of course. Not aimed at you or anyone special. One can exily take this to an unwanted extreme when people actually should realize what we are talking about.
Anyway, I think it has been intimated by the designers (was it Ed himself) before that the original "dark elves" differed only in colour from their other surface cousins.
-Yeah, the original intent was to have something like albino Elves living in the Underdark. That was never canon, though. It's apocrypha.
NB: LK ... my "edgy" remark regarding the colours was one pointing at the CoC of the board of course. Not aimed at you or anyone special. One can exily take this to an unwanted extreme when people actually should realize what we are talking about.
-Posts have already been deleted by individuals, so...
Pre-descent dark elves were dark skinned green elves who lived primarily in the deep southern forests of Faerûn. In the Forgotten Realms, green/wild/wood elves are mechanically the same as the standard elf in the 4E Player's Handbook and Monster Manual. (Eladrin are comprised of sun/moon/star elves).
Any drow who is "uncursed" should be restored to its green elf ancestry.
My point is that Chultans, by far, are your typical savage blacks with hardly any advanced culture like the lighter people of Faerûn have.
Which lighter people? Because, you know, with the Chultans as a reference nearly everyone is lighter-skinned. I'm not sure the natives of tribes such as those that frequent the Shaar, the North, or even the good old Moonshaes can claim a more "advanced culture" for all their lighter skin.
Do the people of Tashalar count as "black," btw?
-To the OP: Everything I said was substantiated:Originally Posted by Iakhovas
Pre-descent dark elves were dark skinned green elves who lived primarily in the deep southern forests of Faerûn. In the Forgotten Realms, green/wild/wood elves are mechanically the same as the standard elf in the 4E Player's Handbook and Monster Manual. (Eladrin are comprised of sun/moon/star elves).
Any drow who is "uncursed" should be restored to its green elf ancestry.
Well, since the quoted poster invented that lore himself, he's bound to know. Bad for the original lore, of course.
NB: Sorry, I'm in a cynical mood today.
NB II: Then again, why should I not be cynical about this?!
Bad for the original lore, of course.
-That it is.
NB: Sorry, I'm in a cynical mood today.
NB II: Then again, why should I not be cynical about this?!
-There's no reason not to be, if you want to.
I have merged content from another thread into this one as per VCL request.
What does this mysterious "as per VCL request" actually refer too, if I may ask?
Grand History uses the term: Green elves: for when the Illithyri arrive and head south, but "Dark Elf city of Atorrnash" thousands of years later. Suggesting that by then they were already being called Dark Elves,
Evermeet also puts the tainting of the dark elves much futher back, suggesting Lolth herself was responsible for their demonic blood, with Kar-Narlist as her consort. If so, then Wendonai's actions might be the icing on the cake.
Or alternatively, as per Realms of the Arcane, tales of Kar-Narlist might be semi-legendary.
Grand History uses the term: Green elves: for when the Illithyri arrive and head south, but "Dark Elf city of Atorrnash" thousands of years later. Suggesting that by then they were already being called Dark Elves,
-AGHotR retconned things such that Dark Elves became nothing more than a specific branch of Green Elves, who had darker skin and such. They'd still need something to identify them as different from "mundane" Green Elves, hence the moniker 'Dark Elves'. I, personally, don't accept this, and still consider them a separate subrace.
Evermeet also puts the tainting of the dark elves much futher back, suggesting Lolth herself was responsible for their demonic blood, with Kar-Narlist as her consort. If so, then Wendonai's actions might be the icing on the cake.
-As discussed in the Ascendancy of the Last thread, the entire notion of the Dark Elves/Drow being, literally, cursed because of infernal blood running through their veins is problematic, in such that Wendonai was summoned circa 15,000 years ago, and Ka'Narlist existed circa 27,000 years ago. By virtue of how genetics work, any kind of "tainted" blood would have been watered down to such a point in either case that it shouldn't be influencing the behavior of those it runs through. Drow are evil because of the society that have, that breed evil behavior, not because of their blood.
"the children of Lolth" seemed more interesting than "infernal-blooded"
And Kar-Narlist was plenty evil enough without any demon blood: as the creater of the Sahaugin he was one nasty elf.
Sounds worryingly like the 4th ed tiefling concept. Which is not a good sign: tiefling concept is Ok in its place, but Having the Illithyri be pointy-eared tieflings is not a good idea.
-Indeed...That Elves who were Ilythiiri are tainted, and are automatically evil, while Elves who were Miyeritari are not tainted, and thus, are not automatically evil, is not "Realmsian".
And Kar-Narlist was plenty evil enough without any demon blood: as the creater of the Sahaugin he was one nasty elf.
-Yes, yes he was. What a guy...
Possibility: Wood elves exist partly because they have distanced themselves from magic. The reduced use of, and exposure to, magic, dilutes the magical nature of the High Elves of both kinds, turning them, over thousands of years, into proto-wood elves, and allowing hybridization with green elves to create a new subrace.
Also, they were seperated from Wild Elves in first Unearthed Arcana book: though that might be set in greyhawk, the concept may have moved on to Faerun.
I decided to go with my own creation and try to make the Dark Elves as varied as the other subraces. I lost the paperwork, but I believe I gave them skin tones from a deep solid dull purple to a black like freshly turned rich earth. Their hair was silver yellow or red if I recall correctly. Eyes were lavender, blue, pink and related colors and grew glowing with age, especially among magi. I gave them the 'tall' elf height and weights from RoF. Which if I recall correctly turned out to be a flat 20% increase in both if you went from the average of the male and female stats drow compared to the average of the male and female stats of copper and wild elves. I kept the women as bigger though just for flavor. The born drow but uncursed kept their drow powers, but future births had no relation to faezress and lost the special powers. I think I gave +2 int -2 con even though that is just like gold elves.
I think I left them with darkvision of 60' and monikered them Dark (comparable to Gold Silver Green Copper) or Night (comparable to Sun Moon Sylvan Wood) elves.
I made no distinction between dark elves from the north or the south, they were just different tribes. The campaign became focused on recovering lore from the lost nations if possible and reestablishing themselves.
Personally, I always found it more interesting to focus on the inhuman colorations of the elves. I really play up the ivory with somewhat blueish tone of Silver elf skin.
Sounds worryingly like the 4th ed tiefling
And Kar-Narlist was plenty evil enough without any demon blood: as the creater of the Sahaugin he was one nasty elf.
shakola or something now he became the sharkfather
D&D genetics doesn't work like real world genetics, otherwise you would be accepting the concept of wood elves.
-Correct. The dilution of extraplanar blood is something we know for a fact as happening. A fiend that mates with a Elf (just for an example) produces a Half-Fiend child. That Half-Fiend child mates with another Elf, and produces a Fey'ri. The Infernal bloodline is weakening as it becomes more and more diluted. Continue on, for hundreds of generations.
Possibility: Wood elves exist partly because they have distanced themselves from magic. The reduced use of, and exposure to, magic, dilutes the magical nature of the High Elves of both kinds, turning them, over thousands of years, into proto-wood elves, and allowing hybridization with green elves to create a new subrace.
-All of which is hypothesizing, using information not included in the "racial" history in Races of Faerûn, which may or may not work, but doesn't account for one thing: Elves breed true. "Magical" or not, a Sun Elf and a Moon Elf mating are going to produce either one, or the other.
However Realms of the arcane has a, possibly mythical, account related by the wemics, of how the sahaugin and malenti came to be, pinning the blame on Kar-Narlist. Though his slave Mbugua was responsible for the first Malenti. He intended to create a weapon to destroy Kar-Narlist. It backfired big time.
-While I like to think of this as fact, it is, unfortunately, myth. It would be true, or it could be false. This also only explained the Malenti (Ka'Narlists' "son"), not the Sahaugin race in large.
I looked at it is as Elves breed true for the first few generations. But maybe it applies only to moon-sun crosses, since they are High Elves. or maybe, its for player purposes, and it doesn't consider effects generations down the line, but assumes that offspring simply take after one or the other parent. Would Elaith's daughter, mostly sun elf, pass moon elf genes down the line, especially if wed to another hybrid elf who is mostly sun elf?
Concerning Dark elf/other elf crosses, in Daughter of the Drow, it appeared that elf genes can give later offspring white skin. Colony of part-dark elves, mostly dark skinned, a few pale "with hearts as dark as any drow"
on the other hand, unless there was heavy inbreeding, Sharlario's moon elves would not have lasted very long using normal genetics. Maybe the green elfish or gold elfish Moonflowers tended to relocate.
Several thousand years down the line, some members of the Gold elf Durothil family are actually gray elves, in Evermeet. the formidable dragonrider Ahskahala was one.
I looked at it is as Elves breed true for the first few generations. But maybe it applies only to moon-sun crosses, since they are High Elves. or maybe, its for player purposes, and it doesn't consider effects generations down the line, but assumes that offspring simply take after one or the other parent. Would Elaith's daughter, mostly sun elf, pass moon elf genes down the line, especially if wed to another hybrid elf who is mostly sun elf?
-Not necessarily, as we know that Elves breed true, and genetics, as we know them to work through experience on Earth, don't necessarily work the same way. Traits, such as coloration of the eyes, or hair, or so on, exist, but doesn't alter that the Elf is a Moon Elf, a Sun Elf, an Aquatic Elf, and so on.
Concerning Dark elf/other elf crosses, in Daughter of the Drow, it appeared that elf genes can give later offspring white skin. Colony of part-dark elves, mostly dark skinned, a few pale "with hearts as dark as any drow"
-Albino Drow are a phenomenon discussed in...Drow of the Underdark, I believe.
on the other hand, unless there was heavy inbreeding, Sharlario's moon elves would not have lasted very long using normal genetics. Maybe the green elfish or gold elfish Moonflowers tended to relocate.
-Sharlario Moonflower was the only Moon Elf among the survivors of Tintageer. He bred with Sun Elves (presumably), or Green Elves (less likey), and produced a Moon Elf heir, Cornaith. Cornaith, likewise, did the same thing, and so on and so on, until a substantial enough population of Moon Elves came into existence on Abeir-Toril.
Several thousand years down the line, some members of the Gold elf Durothil family are actually gray elves, in Evermeet. the formidable dragonrider Ahskahala was one.
-Most people tend for forget that House Durothil is a Sun and Moon Elf house.
NOT albino drow, the colony was Vhaerunites, with a few exiled elves. It said "many dark skinned children, and not a full drow among them"
Books tend to be a bit inconsistant on the whole wood elf/wild elf thing. Champions of Ruin uses the terms Wild Elf and Green Elf seperately for members of the "victorious Blade of the People" but most of the other books stick to WIld Elves as the reclusive, tropic-dwelling survivors of the old Green elf kingdoms, and Wood Elves for the northerners, especially those of the High Forest and Dalelands.
only when moon elves started joining (when they first journeyed to Evermeet) However the clan appears to be mostly Sun Elf.
-Yes. And, 'mostly' includes Moon Elves, hence making the family one of Moon Elves and Sun Elves. An Elven house need not be a single subrace.
I'm wondering if Wood elves and Wild elves were listed as seperate races in Faerun pre-3rd ed, given their appearance in Unearthed Arcana. Its clear that, at least over a long time, lines between races can get blurred.
Mongrelfolk- hybrid of multiple races, resulting in a new race, for example. Assuming that the Elven subraces are more stable then they many other races seems unnecessary.
The term subrace might be there for ease of game classification, and exceptions could exist.
hmm, can a pair of Durothil Sun elves give birth to a Moon elf? Given that there are Moon elf genes in the family.
-No.
I'm wondering if Wood elves and Wild elves were listed as seperate races in Faerun pre-3rd ed, given their appearance in Unearthed Arcana. Its clear that, at least over a long time, lines between races can get blurred.
-No. There was never any distinction until Races of Faerûn. Before this, there were just Green Elves, who ran the gamut between very feral and savage, to civilized and unsavage.
Mongrelfolk- hybrid of multiple races, resulting in a new race, for example. Assuming that the Elven subraces are more stable then they many other races seems unnecessary.
-Mongrelmen =/= Elves. Via Derro, for instance, we know that mating Dwarves with Humans over a period of time yields a new race. With Elves, this is not the case.
How they came about is trickier, but maybe, like the 4th ed backstory, High elves who retreat from civilization and magic, and take up residence in the wild, become wood elves. Remember the Green Elves had their own cities and empires. When groups from all 3 live togther, in the same lower-magic, forest-living lifestyle, interbreeding, its not that crazy an idea to have them become more like each other.
The present-day wild elves went a different route, not taking up with elves of the other two groups.
The Wood Elves as Hybrid concept may be a retcon, but it actually makes sense genetically, that two races interbreeding over a very long time leads to a new one.
-That's what AGHotR is good for. A little blurb about (mostly) everything IN ONE PLACE.
Which is fine, if it is all correctly done. 99,5% is, of course.
-There's only, like two or three minor errors that I've seen other people bring up. Like, the same year mentioned twice, or whatever.
Yeah. Of course, if you are knee deep into some special field and it is that field which suffers, you're bound to highlight it. The majority of the people will not notice it and as I said, in general (99,5% is even more than "general") the book is quite good. That said, you can easily get lost with names and places who are not referred too that much (and some years given don't always help) or unless you are a bit of an insider into that specific matter. Which will lead to some "What? Who? Where?" experiences.
Apart from the drow, what left me wondering was the retconning of the FR elves, i.e. a straight copy of Cormanthyr old AD&D stuff ("green" elves). It could have easily been modified to an up-to-date (FRCS 3E) version telling us of the arrival of wild, sun, moon, wood, dark, and star elves and their developement. Instead, we got the awkward and unnecessary "green" elven evolution stuff (wild, wood, dark) over the cause of less than 10,000 years or so.
My largest problem with changing the previous Green subrace into two distinct sub races of different origins was the lack of consistency. The PGtF seemed haphazard in the assignment of sub race between the two. Areas that consisted of elves who have been in isolation since just after the Crown Wars were being labeled as wood elves. Which makes no sense if the presence of wood elves requires heavy interaction between gold silver and green elves for some unspecified number of centuries to produce wood elves, and never happened until after the Crown Wars.
Anyway. As said before Elves do not follow real world let alone human genetics. Until 3.x Elven subraces were the deliberate creation of gods or magic. Elves do not diverge or evolve throughout the centuries in the same way that the human races of Faerun do. With the one inconsistent exception. I suppose another exception would be the Fey'ri and the Eladree, but I feel breeding with Demons and Eladrin count under deliberate magical influences. While there are variances within each subrace, and these variances follow along familial lines, the nature of these variances are of a Created purpose of individuality.
Also, in the case of interbreeding a child does not carry the full genetic potential of both parents the way that human subracial interbreeding does. A sun elf born to a sun elf and moon elf parental pairing does not carry the "genetic code" for moon elves. This elf would carry the "code" for both families, but not both races. Through intermarriage most major and historically established houses and clans have minor lineages of other subraces. These do not pop up randomly but through marriage bringing in other subraces to the house and producing children recognized as members.
If elvish breeding did not work this way then moon elves would not be a presence on Faerun. Moon elves on Faerun are descended from a single moon elf man who married a gold elf woman. Likely half of his children were moon elves, or maybe because of the blessings of the Seldarine most were moon elves to allow a more equitable division. As the elvish populations grew moon elves eventually diverged enough for safe internal breeding amongs themselves. This doesn't require much as this saftey level seems to be first cousins for elves. Due to their fairly immutable "genetics" only the closer pairings of immediate family and close descendents run the risk of problems.
I would hazard a guess that the Seldarine will influence elvish breeding so that if one sub race is in clear minority their heritage will be the most likely for the children inter (sub)racial pairings. Hence moon elves flowered so quickly from one man, who as far as we know was faithful.
The green to wood and wild elf thing: IMHO, one could have chopped the "green" bit entirely and said it were the wild elves who came in. Over the cause of 10,000odd years, a distinctive split in their way of living occured, some build large forest cities and kingdoms, while other remained more feral and closer to Nature. Those latter are the wild elves of today, while the former became the wood elves.
-This is the direction I modified things in Elves of Faerûn. Same people, different cultures. Wood Elf is the term for all of them, with the more feral ones being "Wild".