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Dead Shamans

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
lutonfr
Mar 19, 2010 16:33:47 FR has me a little confused when it comes to Primal Power. I would like to know whether the 4E Primal Power Book applies to FR at all.

So I am playing a Shaman and a few issues have come up in Roleplaying which I am not sure of:

Firstly: Is their a difference between a character's Spirit and their Soul? As I understand it, when a Character dies, they (their soul) is judged by Kelemvor who then sends them to wherever they belong. If they are faithless, they are usually sent to the Wall of the Faithless. But what happens to a faithless Shaman when s/he dies?

The Shaman I am playing has decided to not worship any God but rather follow the Primal Spirits (eg. Stormhawk, Father Tree, Great bear etc.). What would happen to my character if it died then? Would it just join the Flow of Spirits right away, or would it go to Kelemvor and subsequently the Wall of faithless or does the Spirit Stay behind and soul move to be judged? --> Which brings attention back to the first question: Is their a difference between a character's Spirit and their Soul?

Thanks in advance for the help
#2
The_Silversword
Mar 19, 2010 16:48:17 Well I dont think theres anything official on it, but the way I see it, you wouldnt be faithless, you have faith, its just in the spirits instead of the gods. So its possible that when your Shaman dies he/she may just end up merging with the Spirit world, or perhaps becoming a Primal Spirit your self. I dont beleive there is a difference in your spirit and your soul, theyre the same thing, as far as I know. And I dont think that the fluff from the Primal Power book really applies to the Realms, the whole Primordial battle with the gods had a very different resolution in the Realms than in the core mythology.

Hope that helps some.
#3
LordManshoon
Mar 19, 2010 23:33:23
Firstly: Is their a difference between a character's Spirit and their Soul?

Not to my knowledge. The terms have been synonymous whenever I've read about the afterlife and all things pertaining to death in FR.

As I understand it, when a Character dies, they (their soul) is judged by Kelemvor who then sends them to wherever they belong. If they are faithless, they are usually sent to the Wall of the Faithless. But what happens to a faithless Shaman when s/he dies?
The Shaman I am playing has decided to not worship any God but rather follow the Primal Spirits (eg. Stormhawk, Father Tree, Great bear etc.). What would happen to my character if it died then?

Assuming your character died in good standing with his/her master(s), s/he would join him/her/it/them in his/her/its/their homeplane (or "state of existence", if the being is a Spirit who claims no definite home). I imagine that the Shaman's soul would still travel to the Fugue Plane for a temporary pit-stop before being whisked away to whatever realm his/her patron rules or dwells in. I believe that because Shamans don't have the strict, binding soul-contract that is employed between Warlocks and their masters, they would still spend time in Kelemvor's plane before moving on to their next destination. They may be accompanied by representatives of the Primal Spirits, similar to those tasked by the divine beings to escort their faithful to the realms of the gods, but I'm not positive. There's a good chance they would, though, since a few of the Primal Spirits, like Nobanion, were said to be gods in the past, and used such agents to guide their followers home. I could also see Kelemvor tasking some of his own servants to guide the souls of Primal-worshippers to their respective realms, should some Primal Spirits be unable to send such messengers.

Would it just join the Flow of Spirits right away, or would it go to Kelemvor and subsequently the Wall of faithless or does the Spirit Stay behind and soul move to be judged?

Since the spirit and soul are one and the same, the Shaman (again, assuming the person died loyal to his master) would wait around outside Kelemvor's City before being guided to the appropriate plane/Spirit Realm, if not by an actual shepherd of souls loyal to a Primal Spirit, then by perhaps one of Kel's servants. During this time, I believe, the Shaman would be vulnerable to the temptations of the devils, who, with Kelemvor's permission, are allowed to try to persuade doubtful souls to give up their patron and pledge themselves to the powers of Baator; this is done prior to a "spiritual shepherd" arriving, because once the servants of the divine/spiritual start showing up, the devils know to look elsewhere. Also, as per Rich Baker's answers in the Ask-the-Designer thread, Kelemvor may not be using the Wall of the Faithless as "THE" judgment for souls who paid no special devotion to any one being (or beings, if worshipping by pantheon, such as the Seldarine altogether), but rather as one possibility.

At least, that's my take on things, based on what's been presented in the past.

#4
suin_bahhar_02
Mar 21, 2010 19:48:18 Not intirely sure how a soul would remain in the natural world when using the 4E fluff, but I'd guess that in Fearun certain natural primeval places in the world would generate enough spiritual/divine energy to be considered a "domain" for spirits "of the greener kind". Like the Great Totems of the Yuir that lie dormant in the Hedgestones in Aglarond, some natural beings are capable of laying their (dormant) souls in primal landscape features. Places such as trees, stonecroppings, wells, streams, or even mountains, lakes, cloud structures and constellations can be considered suitable places for primal spirits to dwell.

Before the Spellplague druids ended up at their chosen gods realm though. I dont think it is explained why this changed... so possibly all primal characters end up at Silvanus' domain. It could also be so that due to some forseen event Chauntea and Silvanus chose to house all shamanistic and druidic souls within Chauntea to shelter them from a catastrophe of a sort.
#5
sfdragon
Mar 21, 2010 23:37:38 power splat fluff nothing to do with the Realms lore...

your Shaman would go to the realm of the god/primal spirit or primordial he/she worshiped in life.

shaman worships Mielikki/ Silvanus/Auril/Malar/etc off you go to the house of nature.

shaman worships Archfey off to Feywild or arvandor with you

shaman worships ika/////grumbar/akadi/ Kossuth elemental chaos with you

shaman worships primal spirit/ off to where primal spirit resides, maybe the Feywild.

Shaman worships Asmodeus Hells to you

etc

I asked Mr. Baker in the ask the DEvs a question about a similiar topic, , it was druids an=d the gods...

forgot what he said though...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 lutonfr Mar 19, 2010 16:33:47	FR has me a little confused when it comes to Primal Power. I would like to know whether the 4E Primal Power Book applies to FR at all. So I am playing a Shaman and a few issues have come up in Roleplaying which I am not sure of: Firstly: Is their a difference between a character's Spirit and their Soul? As I understand it, when a Character dies, they (their soul) is judged by Kelemvor who then sends them to wherever they belong. If they are faithless, they are usually sent to the Wall of the Faithless. But what happens to a faithless Shaman when s/he dies? The Shaman I am playing has decided to not worship any God but rather follow the Primal Spirits (eg. Stormhawk, Father Tree, Great bear etc.). What would happen to my character if it died then? Would it just join the Flow of Spirits right away, or would it go to Kelemvor and subsequently the Wall of faithless or does the Spirit Stay behind and soul move to be judged? --> Which brings attention back to the first question: Is their a difference between a character's Spirit and their Soul? Thanks in advance for the help
#2 The_Silversword Mar 19, 2010 16:48:17	Well I dont think theres anything official on it, but the way I see it, you wouldnt be faithless, you have faith, its just in the spirits instead of the gods. So its possible that when your Shaman dies he/she may just end up merging with the Spirit world, or perhaps becoming a Primal Spirit your self. I dont beleive there is a difference in your spirit and your soul, theyre the same thing, as far as I know. And I dont think that the fluff from the Primal Power book really applies to the Realms, the whole Primordial battle with the gods had a very different resolution in the Realms than in the core mythology. Hope that helps some.
#3 LordManshoon Mar 19, 2010 23:33:23	Firstly: Is their a difference between a character's Spirit and their Soul? Not to my knowledge. The terms have been synonymous whenever I've read about the afterlife and all things pertaining to death in FR. As I understand it, when a Character dies, they (their soul) is judged by Kelemvor who then sends them to wherever they belong. If they are faithless, they are usually sent to the Wall of the Faithless. But what happens to a faithless Shaman when s/he dies? The Shaman I am playing has decided to not worship any God but rather follow the Primal Spirits (eg. Stormhawk, Father Tree, Great bear etc.). What would happen to my character if it died then? Assuming your character died in good standing with his/her master(s), s/he would join him/her/it/them in his/her/its/their homeplane (or "state of existence", if the being is a Spirit who claims no definite home). I imagine that the Shaman's soul would still travel to the Fugue Plane for a temporary pit-stop before being whisked away to whatever realm his/her patron rules or dwells in. I believe that because Shamans don't have the strict, binding soul-contract that is employed between Warlocks and their masters, they would still spend time in Kelemvor's plane before moving on to their next destination. They may be accompanied by representatives of the Primal Spirits, similar to those tasked by the divine beings to escort their faithful to the realms of the gods, but I'm not positive. There's a good chance they would, though, since a few of the Primal Spirits, like Nobanion, were said to be gods in the past, and used such agents to guide their followers home. I could also see Kelemvor tasking some of his own servants to guide the souls of Primal-worshippers to their respective realms, should some Primal Spirits be unable to send such messengers. Would it just join the Flow of Spirits right away, or would it go to Kelemvor and subsequently the Wall of faithless or does the Spirit Stay behind and soul move to be judged? Since the spirit and soul are one and the same, the Shaman (again, assuming the person died loyal to his master) would wait around outside Kelemvor's City before being guided to the appropriate plane/Spirit Realm, if not by an actual shepherd of souls loyal to a Primal Spirit, then by perhaps one of Kel's servants. During this time, I believe, the Shaman would be vulnerable to the temptations of the devils, who, with Kelemvor's permission, are allowed to try to persuade doubtful souls to give up their patron and pledge themselves to the powers of Baator; this is done prior to a "spiritual shepherd" arriving, because once the servants of the divine/spiritual start showing up, the devils know to look elsewhere. Also, as per Rich Baker's answers in the Ask-the-Designer thread, Kelemvor may not be using the Wall of the Faithless as "THE" judgment for souls who paid no special devotion to any one being (or beings, if worshipping by pantheon, such as the Seldarine altogether), but rather as one possibility. At least, that's my take on things, based on what's been presented in the past.
#4 suin_bahhar_02 Mar 21, 2010 19:48:18	Not intirely sure how a soul would remain in the natural world when using the 4E fluff, but I'd guess that in Fearun certain natural primeval places in the world would generate enough spiritual/divine energy to be considered a "domain" for spirits "of the greener kind". Like the Great Totems of the Yuir that lie dormant in the Hedgestones in Aglarond, some natural beings are capable of laying their (dormant) souls in primal landscape features. Places such as trees, stonecroppings, wells, streams, or even mountains, lakes, cloud structures and constellations can be considered suitable places for primal spirits to dwell. Before the Spellplague druids ended up at their chosen gods realm though. I dont think it is explained why this changed... so possibly all primal characters end up at Silvanus' domain. It could also be so that due to some forseen event Chauntea and Silvanus chose to house all shamanistic and druidic souls within Chauntea to shelter them from a catastrophe of a sort.
#5 sfdragon Mar 21, 2010 23:37:38	power splat fluff nothing to do with the Realms lore... your Shaman would go to the realm of the god/primal spirit or primordial he/she worshiped in life. shaman worships Mielikki/ Silvanus/Auril/Malar/etc off you go to the house of nature. shaman worships Archfey off to Feywild or arvandor with you shaman worships ika/////grumbar/akadi/ Kossuth elemental chaos with you shaman worships primal spirit/ off to where primal spirit resides, maybe the Feywild. Shaman worships Asmodeus Hells to you etc I asked Mr. Baker in the ask the DEvs a question about a similiar topic, , it was druids an=d the gods... forgot what he said though...