Mystra had to die to allow the magic system to be adjusted to fit 4.0 (she really did not, but that is the powers that be stance). However, my question is why did every single god or goddess having a connection to magic have to be killed as well? Who do wizards worship is the retconned setting? I mean, you still have the sphere of nature for rangers and druids, thievery for rogues, justice for paladins, etc....but nothing for a mage. Azuth could of at least survived as he was the patron god of mages and not magic itself. Would it have been so bad to allow him to exist? Do mages now just end up in limbo when they die? I think Elminster would have made a good exarch for Azuth. Personally, I think a god of wizards is needed.
Thoughts and opinions are welcome
So personally, the loss didn't effect me at all. I was slightly dissapointed to see Velsharoon and Azuth gone. I thought there was potential for an alliance of necessity to happen there.
-RW
-RW
Who do wizards worship is the retconned setting?
-Patrons/Patronesses not directly related to their profession. ;)
Would it have been so bad to allow him to exist?
-Apparently so. Somebody needed to have their divinity sucked from them so Asmodeus could be a deity, though.
Do mages now just end up in limbo when they die?
-Which, brings up the question, has the afterlife been addressed in the new book? I think I'm going to ask right now.
Yes, you hit the nail on the head there. That is exactly the point I was trying to make. Mages now worship gods that have nothing to do with their profession. That makes no sense to me.
Lord Karsus,
Yes, you hit the nail on the head there. That is exactly the point I was trying to make. Mages now worship gods that have nothing to do with their profession. That makes no sense to me.
That's one of my many complains too.
-RW
I can certainly understand why some mages would have other priorities. However, I think just as many, if not more, would want to devote themselves solely to magic.
That was/ is the beuty of magic. It is a form of art and power that does not need divine approval. Wizards of power can often accomplish that which the gods can, albeit on a smaller scale, so what need have they for beings in the sky?
-RW
Lord Karsus,
Yes, you hit the nail on the head there. That is exactly the point I was trying to make. Mages now worship gods that have nothing to do with their profession. That makes no sense to me.
-I don't really have a problem with it. That it's magic (which has an otherworldly source) makes it a problem, but reframe the statement in these terms: Barbarians now worship deities that have nothing to do with their profession. It is plausible that a Barbarian worship...Sseth? Of course. Very plausible. Sseth, however, has nothing to do with Barbarians.
-I don't really have a problem with it. That it's magic (which has an otherworldly source) makes it a problem, but reframe the statement in these terms: Barbarians now worship deities that have nothing to do with their profession. It is plausible that a Barbarian worship...Sseth? Of course. Very plausible. Sseth, however, has nothing to do with Barbarians.
But they still have Tempus. Wizards don't have any god that represents what they are.
If you want to go the route of "if you can do it yourself without divine approval, then why need a being in the sky for it" you do not need gods of knowledge, war, thieves, etc. None of these acts require divine approval to accomplish; yet these gods all survived.
Also, in response to Mystra's church she had an enormous following. While her clergy were relatively small in number, keep in mind that the act of casting a spell was in fact a prayer to her and an act of worship.
the retconned setting?
To be clear, the majority of changes are not retcons.
A retcon is when you change something and then claim it has always been like it, thus retroactively changing your continuity.
Metaplot is when you move the plot forward, causing changes in your setting.
Thus, the whole Abeir and Toril explanation is a retcon, since it is retroactively changing the nature of how the world was formed (and introducing the Primordials). The change to Mystra is metaplot, since they didn't say she never existed, simply that she dies because of advancing storylines.
I am an Animator, but I'd hardly worship a god of Art or Beauty, despite holding both in high regard.
-RW
But they still have Tempus. Wizards don't have any god that represents what they are.
-You missed the entire point of the post.
-You don't need to worship a deity that represents "your profession". Just because you are a jeweler doesn't mean you have to worship the deity of jewelry. Like I said, the problem arises because magic is a supernatural force, and one has to almost compensate it's origins and reconcile that with religious undertones.
Thus, while as a jeweler you did not have to worship the god of jewelry, you at least had the right to choose to do so. However I will only say that this is my interpretation and opinion.
I think his point might be why did every god related to magic or wizards in general have to die when every other 4.0 class was allowed the possibility and ability to worship a being that coincides with their class and profession.
There's no god of any classes. Being a warrior, or serving a god of warriors, has nothing to do with any particular class. Same with every other concept.
This way, you have to think about what your character's relationship with his deity really means, instead of just saying "Well, I'm a wizard, so I worship the god of magic."
I am not trying to argue there shouldn't be one, only that one is not necessary for a Wizard to worship. Also, it doesn't make more or less sense to worship a god of magic. Wizards often seek power, that might come through spells, bu that was hardly an Ideal any god of magic, save perhaps Velsharoon (Or Cyric) held up.
It may be the Hermetic in me, but my Wizards dont seek power for power's sake, they seek it to better understand the world and to improve it and that is perfectly compatible with the worship of an entity that represents what I seek.
I think his point might be why did every god related to magic or wizards in general have to die when every other 4.0 class was allowed the possibility and ability to worship a being that coincides with their class and profession.
Thus, while as a jeweler you did not have to worship the god of jewelry, you at least had the right to choose to do so. However I will only say that this is my interpretation and opinion.
That's exactly what I meant.
There's no god of any classes. Being a warrior, or serving a god of warriors, has nothing to do with any particular class. Same with every other concept.
This way, you have to think about what your character's relationship with his deity really means, instead of just saying "Well, I'm a wizard, so I worship the god of magic."
I always do that, Alediran is a follower of Aerdrie because the air is his love, he became half-air elemental to reinforce that connection. Just like I have a Bladesinger who follows Corellon because he tries to emulate him in his role as protector of the elves.
Please do not tell me what I mean in my own posts. That is your opinion and your interpretation of what I posted. There is a difference.
Neither is right or wrong, I just don't think it is mandatory to have one, though not saying there shouldn't be one. ;)
-RW
Just a different style of wizard.
Neither is right or wrong, I just don't think it is mandatory to have one, though not saying there shouldn't be one. ;)
-RW
The option MUST be there, so you can choose if you want to use it or not. The worst aspect of 4th edition is that it took options from us, and I hate games that take options from the player.
The option MUST be there, so you can choose if you want to use it or not. The worst aspect of 4th edition is that it took options from us, and I hate games that take options from the player.
I don't think it MUST. Within the spheres, there is bound to be a god who represents the ideals of your character. I don't think that any character would have "magic" as a base ideal. It'll often be for power, protection, ease of life, gaining beauty, etc.
Magic alone isn't an ideal. It's not a system of belief, and while betterment is often paramount, the why often is more complex than just because.
I don't think the options limit anything. I liked having more options, but the loss isn't devastating.
-RW
Magic alone isn't an ideal. It's not a system of belief, and while betterment is often paramount, the why often is more complex than just because.
That's where you are wrong, magic is the aplication of the will to change the world, and a god of magic would be the supreme will that teaches wizards how to push their wills to the limits.
That's where you are wrong, magic is the aplication of the will to change the world, and a god of magic would be the supreme will that teaches wizards how to push their wills to the limits.
But what is the motivation behind that will to learn? Anger? Revenge? Lore? Pleasure? Power? Theres almost always going to be a reason outside of "I just like magic" for studying it. And it is that reason, that ideal, that would define their path of worship.
-RW
Why not worship a deity that represents what you usually do with your magic? It seems kind of disingenuous to expect a sage mage, a thief mage, and a battle mage to worship the same deity.
Exactly.
But what is the motivation behind that will to learn? Anger? Revenge? Lore? Pleasure? Power? Theres almost always going to be a reason outside of "I just like magic" for studying it. And it is that reason, that ideal, that would define their path of worship.
-RW
I am guessing you don't have much truck for the academic life then.
Sometimes "just" learning it is its own reward ;) .
I am guessing you don't have much truck for the academic life then.
Sometimes "just" learning it is its own reward ;) .
Ah but I live for the acedemic side of things. I have 3-5 books going at any given time, and commit to memory passages that catch my fancy. Knowledge on all things is something I strive for. However that is the Realm of Ohgma, not Mystra, so my comments stand. ;)
-RW
In the above example, a sage mage could worship a god of knowledge; the thief a god of thievery or wealth; and the battle mage the god of war, tactics, etc. They could also worships a plethora of other gods. However, if they wanted to worship magic, spellcraft, the art, etc. there is NO god available.
Magic could very well form a belief system. The belief in possibilities, the belief that your will is strong enough to change the world through spellcraft, etc. People formed an entire religion based on magic before the spellplague so it is a little hard to swallow that 100 years later no mage would think the same or arrive at the same conclusion on their own.
I respect everyone's opinion who has posted in this thread. My argument is just that wizards deserved the opportunity to worship a deity that specifically represented their focus and ideals. It is a bit much that every god linked to wizards, schools of magic, or magic itself died or had their magic-specific portfolio removed.
18DELTA
My point was only that while it might be nice, it isn't necessary, and most mages don't have to, or simply don't worship deities of magic.
And to be fair, fighters would worship tempus not for being a fighter, but for his ideals on war. Magic is more abstract than combat, and the reasons for worshipping a god, often coincide with the reasons of others. Fighters don't simply worship being fighters, they worship ideals of their profession personified in the god. War, strategy, perfection of the blade for some alterior motive. All of this can be done with a wizard.
But again, I am not saying it's right to have omitted them, nor am I saying you couldn't try to justify having them. I just disagree with some of the arguments for it.
-RW
-I personally don't think a Wizard would want to Worship a 'God'. That would mean that there is something that they may have to rely on other than their pure personal power. But I did have DIE MYSTRA DIE in my sig at one time, like a year ago when I joined these forums. :P
18DELTA
The book "Undead" mentions Szass Tam's thoughts on the gods, if I recall correctly. Something along the lines of believing them to be "powerful spirits." His treatment of Bane certainly proves his attitude.
I don't see Larloch being much of a god-fearing man/corpse, either. He had a business relationship with Mystra, if I recall. Something like throwing scrolls filled with new spells at people so Mystra would grant him access to epic spells and suchlike.
In both cases, they realize even worshiping a god for personal gain (like Lolth or Bane), makes you ultimately under the thumb of someone else. Of course, with the Afterlife, the Faithless get a pretty raw deal.
Personally, I always wanted to roll a God of Reincarnation.
Would Reincarnation be considered partly under the realm of Poetic Justice?
how they offed Mystra was bland.
they could of said she managed to consume the shadowweave and the weave, which resulted in her office and divine realm being destroyed, making her a mortal again and being assassinated by Cyric and Shar, and it might have gone over better....
For the sake of argument let's say that Shar had gained the Magic and Spells portfolio from Mystra upon her death. She then began to preach to her followers to research and learn magic and horde the knowledge for themselves (in secret) in addition to her other teachings. Would your character have then decided to worship Shar simply because she was the new deity of magic?
I think his point might be why did every god related to magic or wizards in general have to die when every other 4.0 class was allowed the possibility and ability to worship a being that coincides with their class and profession.
Thus, while as a jeweler you did not have to worship the god of jewelry, you at least had the right to choose to do so. However I will only say that this is my interpretation and opinion.
-That's why, as I said, being as that magic is supernatural in origin, things get complicated. Just like jewelers don't need to worship the patron of jewelers, monks don't have to worship the patron of monks, and cows don't have to worship the patron of cows, neither do wizards have to worship the deity of magic. If they are greedy magicians, they can worship a deity of greed. If they are noble magicians, they can worship the deity of justice.
-Personally speaking, I rather like the idea that there isn't a deity in charge of magic. I would have much rather Mystra be a unique being, some kind of powerful unknown entity that did not want or need prayers, rather than a deity.
I like the idea of a god/goddess of magic, I dont like the idea of aforementioned deity regulating magic.
thus I liked
Mystra as a goddess, liked Azuth to an extent
dont like and never did like Velsharoon.
MYstra the next generation could just be that head of magic, no regulating no nothing, just isnpire new spells and rituals and teach wizards not to overeach their own abilities.
In answer, I would never switch deities blindly because of a portfolio change. As I have said before, I am sure that all people can worship whatever god or goddess they choose based upon their belief system and character personality. What I am saying is that there is no longer the option for a wizard to even choose to worship a deity associated with magic, or magery, or wizards, or illusion, etc..anything connected to magic.
Now, what I am saying is based upon the list of gods/goddesses and the spheres associated with them. Because I do not have the book myself, I could be way off and a deity associated with arcane magic might exist. I freely admit that. However, based on the list and spheres the Corellon of the realms is a more narrowly focused deity than the one listed in the player's handbook (which lists him as also being a patron of arcane magic). I would also be interested in seeing Oghma's description. If he is the FR version of Ioun, he might also be the patron of the study of magic.
I agree with everyone that mages can worship whomever they want based on how they use their magic. I just think it strange that WoTC built in 4 deities associated with magic (Corellon, Ioun, Sehanine, and Vecna), while purging the realms of their counterparts based on the premise that the FR versions needed to be removed in order to faciliate the change from the 3.5 magic system to the 4.0 magic system.
I thank everyone for reading and replying to the thread.
I'm not sure about the spheres as like you I don't have the book yet either.
However, in 3E Cyric had the portfolio of illusions.
That being said, I've always regarded Shar and Selune as both deities of magic, considering that they created Mystryl to begin with, or so the myth goes. So I think either of those deities would suit. Also, it seems that when Mystra died much of her divine "magical" essence went back to both Shar and Selune, thus either deity would be acceptable.
For more knowledge based wizards - the scholarly type, Oghma is the obvious choice. For Elves, Corellon works.
Although the point of my previous post was to point out that even -if- there was a god(dess) of magic in the 4E Realms, it does not necessarily mean it'd be a deity that your character would normally worship. (Such as Shar in my example above.) As such, simply choose a deity that makes the most sense.
If your character is a scholarly type, interested in the pursuit of knowledge and sharing it with others (very similar to what Mystra always taught in regard to magic) then Oghma is by far the most obvious choice.
I should also point out that, like Shar and Selune, I also regard Oghma as a semi-deity of magic, since he focuses upon the pursuit of ALL knowledge, which would include magical knowledge.
Now,
Mystra had to die to allow the magic system to be adjusted to fit 4.0 (she really did not, but that is the powers that be stance). However, my question is why did every single god or goddess having a connection to magic have to be killed as well?
No, I don't think it was necessary. After all, the "core setting" has a deity who looks after magic (Corellon).
Mages now worship gods that have nothing to do with their profession. That makes no sense to me.
Well, they could always do that, and it does make sense--remember, the Realms is polytheistic and most people don't worship only one god.
I don't think that any character would have "magic" as a base ideal.
Well, some might like it for it's own sake (and see it as a "base ideal") even if they are not the majority. Magic isn't a "system of belief", but neither are most other portfolios/spheres.
-I personally don't think a Wizard would want to Worship a 'God'. That would mean that there is something that they may have to rely on other than their pure personal power.
Not all gods (perhaps not even most gods) in the Realms teach their followers to rely on them, at least not in the real-world Christian sense.
Not all gods (perhaps not even most gods) in the Realms teach their followers to rely on them, at least not in the real-world Christian sense.
The Seldarine, for example, except for divine spells and the rare intervention on Evermeet the elves don't need their help.
There is always the possibility of the rebirth of Mystra or the rise of a new god/goddess of magic. (Epic level module or a novel to be announced).
-I've said this plenty of times in the past, and I'll repeat myself again: I think that, at some point, WotC will tease the rebirth of Mystra, in a novel, or in an adventure, or whatever other medium they use. But, in the end, Mystra will not be reborn. Remember, the designers felt that she needed to be removed for two reasons:
1) The new magic system was not compatible with Mystra. If Mystra is added back into the setting, that makes her death relatively useless, and brings up the question, if she could be adapted to the new magic system (which she would have to be), why wasn't it done at the beginning of the 4e era.
2) Mystra was seen as an impediment to some players/DMs, for the commonly cited reasons. By removing her, the designers hope to attract many of these people to the Forgotten Realms. By including her once more in the setting, they can possibly turn these people off from the setting.
-I've said this plenty of times in the past, and I'll repeat myself again: I think that, at some point, WotC will tease the rebirth of Mystra, in a novel, or in an adventure, or whatever other medium they use. But, in the end, Mystra will not be reborn. Remember, the designers felt that she needed to be removed for two reasons:
1) The new magic system was not compatible with Mystra. If Mystra is added back into the setting, that makes her death relatively useless, and brings up the question, if she could be adapted to the new magic system (which she would have to be), why wasn't it done at the beginning of the 4e era.
2) Mystra was seen as an impediment to some players/DMs, for the commonly cited reasons. By removing her, the designers hope to attract many of these people to the Forgotten Realms. By including her once more in the setting, they can possibly turn these people off from the setting.
And yet, I have the feeling they are going to bring her back after they realize how much she and the other things left behind from the True Realms are important to the setting.
-I've said this plenty of times in the past, and I'll repeat myself again: I think that, at some point, WotC will tease the rebirth of Mystra, in a novel, or in an adventure, or whatever other medium they use. But, in the end, Mystra will not be reborn. Remember, the designers felt that she needed to be removed for two reasons:
1) The new magic system was not compatible with Mystra. If Mystra is added back into the setting, that makes her death relatively useless, and brings up the question, if she could be adapted to the new magic system (which she would have to be), why wasn't it done at the beginning of the 4e era.
2) Mystra was seen as an impediment to some players/DMs, for the commonly cited reasons. By removing her, the designers hope to attract many of these people to the Forgotten Realms. By including her once more in the setting, they can possibly turn these people off from the setting.
And I also said there is the possibility of a new god of magic ascending. Someone who absorbs what is left of Mystra's power.
And yet, I have the feeling they are going to bring her back after they realize how much she and the other things left behind from the True Realms are important to the setting.
-Not really. I'm happy that Mystra is gone. I don't necessarily like the way that she was killed, and the repercussions it had, but it's good to see Mystra take a back seat. I would have rather seen her be minimized a bit more, but death is close enough.
And I also said there is the possibility of a new god of magic ascending. Someone who absorbs what is left of Mystra's power.
-I didn't address that point, now did I? :P ;)
-The existence of Mystra as a goddess always made all of those other deities of different aspects of magic mostly useless. I was having this conversation with someone else, concerning a similar situation in his own campaign: Why worship the deity of wizards, when you can worship the deity of magic? Why give someone who isn't the source of your power thanks, and ignore the being that is responsible for your abilities?
Because such a decision is not a cold calculated choice? If you're a wizard and you feel a deeper affinity for Azuth than for Mystra, why not worship him? Or even better, why not worship both? Only clerics have a deep, "monogamous" (heh) relationship with a single god... And even they offer prayers to other gods when the situation might warrant it. We're not talking about a bunch of monotheistic religions, we're talking about a polytheistic religion. There's a big difference there.
So a wizard might give greatest praise to Azuth, but say prayers to Mystra when making a new spell, say a prayer to Sune when she goes out to court her sweetheart, say a prayer of thanks to Chauntea for her daily bread, whisper a prayer of appeasement to Shar when she needs to walk the streets of night, and throw coins over the side of a ship as a sacrifice to Umberlee when she's making a voyage at sea.
As far as I can tell, this hasn't changed between 3e and 4e... I feel the lack of a deity of magic really hurts the feel of the Realms, but that's probably because Mystra was (and still is) a big draw card for me to the Realms. Without her, it's not the Realms. But I suppose other people feel differently.
but that's probably because Mystra was (and still is) a big draw card for me to the Realms. Without her, it's not the Realms.
Yeah, a Realms without Mystra, to me, feels like a Marvel Universe without Captain America or a DCU without Superman. I've always viewed Mystra as kind of a standard bearer character, representative of the world, itself.
Well, with any luck, we'll see Mystra reborn over time. If any two-bit Wizard can come up with contingencies for their own death, and if even Bane and Bhaal can come up with ways to resurrect themselves, then surely the Goddess of Magic has a backup plan in place. What I'd love to see is a series of adventures in the RPGA over the course of a year or two dropping hints left and right about the possibility, before culminating in an epic adventure in which the PC's help her plans come to fruition. Just my personal wish, of course.
Though I will say, if she does come back, I would prefer that her power wasn't as all-encompassing as it was, before (like cutting off other gods from the weave). That and I like shared focus between the most powerful gods.
Because such a decision is not a cold calculated choice? If you're a wizard and you feel a deeper affinity for Azuth than for Mystra, why not worship him?
-Azuth, who does nothing for you, as opposed to Mystra, who is granting you your powers.
-Azuth, who does nothing for you, as opposed to Mystra, who is granting you your powers.
An affinity for a deity is not necessarily a logical thing. It's at least as much emotional as it is intellectual.
An affinity for a deity is not necessarily a logical thing. It's at least as much emotional as it is intellectual.
-Why have an emotional connection with a deity who does nothing for you? The mantra of Mystra is similar enough to that of Azuth's such that any appeal that Azuth has can also be found in Mystra.
-Why have an emotional connection with a deity who does nothing for you? The mantra of Mystra is similar enough to that of Azuth's such that any appeal that Azuth has can also be found in Mystra.
It's because Azuth's version tends to be more liked among wizards while Mystra's is more palatable for sorcerers.
It's because Azuth's version tends to be more liked among wizards while Mystra's is more palatable for sorcerers.
-Not particularly, no.
-Azuth, I feel, would be better suited as a deity for those who can't/don't use magic, but want to understand it anyway. In a lay, scholarly way.
But what is the motivation behind that will to learn? Anger? Revenge? Lore? Pleasure? Power? Theres almost always going to be a reason outside of "I just like magic" for studying it. And it is that reason, that ideal, that would define their path of worship.
-RW
Dragonlance did Magic for Magic's sake. Likewise, you have Oghma for the same reason with Knowledge.
If they didnt change Corellon's portfolios in the forgotten realms book then he would be your god of magic to worship states in phb that he is god of arcane magic.
-The 'Core' books aren't the Forgotten Realms, however. If I remember correctly, Corellon Larethian's sphere in 4e was 'Fey'. I'll go check now.
-Yes, yes it was.
pretty sure he is on the list of forgotten realm dieties and yes it says he is the god of fey and also god of arcane magic so go check your phb again.
-Again, reread what I said:
-The 'Core' books aren't the Forgotten Realms, however. If I remember correctly, Corellon Larethian's sphere in 4e was 'Fey'. I'll go check now.
-Yes, yes it was.
so by that logic since lolth is in the phb she isnt the god of drow in forgotten realms book because core books are different then forgotten realm books.
-Right. We know that the two entities are not the same, because the cosmology of the 3e Forgotten Realms isolated it from the rest of the multiverse. That's a little advanced, however. Something more along the simple lines would be since the Raven Queen is in the 'Core' books, but not the Forgotten Realms books, we know that the Raven Queen does not exist in the Forgotten Realms.
As far as I can tell, this hasn't changed between 3e and 4e... I feel the lack of a deity of magic really hurts the feel of the Realms, but that's probably because Mystra was (and still is) a big draw card for me to the Realms. Without her, it's not the Realms. But I suppose other people feel differently.
I don't.
-Azuth, who does nothing for you, as opposed to Mystra, who is granting you your powers.
Who says Azuth does nothing for his followers?
He teaches an approach to magic that involves logic and reason. That, at least, I can appreciate.
Who says Azuth does nothing for his followers?
He teaches an approach to magic that involves logic and reason. That, at least, I can appreciate.
-So can/could/does/did/will/would (I think I covered every tense, there!) Mystra.