What are your predictions for which deities will become saints or servitors under which other deities and which deities will meet their demise? For example, I'd guess Sharess and Llira would probably lounge under Sune's auspices in 4e...more completely than they do in 3e, I mean.
Some specific questions...
1) Is Sehanine from core D&D poised to take Selune's place in FR?
2) Will it just be the 3e greater powers left as 4e deities?
3) Will the Elven pantheon wind up (superficially, at least) parallel to RL Hinduism?
4) Will Sheela Peryroyl destroy the gods of nature and fury to become the supreme power of the natural world [new symbol: Bloodied iron daisy]?
wish people would get that straight.
also the core 3 are not tide to any setting
sehanine and sylune are NOT the same.
They might be the same in the 4E Realms though, for better or for worse.
They might be the same in the 4E Realms though, for better or for worse.
for worse for sure. I would miss Selune as she is. My favorite FR deity
I like the revamping of the pantheon....
Have you seen it? ;)
I regard it as utter rubbish. No-one needs this simplification, especially as people who cry foul of oh-so many gods hardly ever raise their voice about five dozen new spells, four dozen new feats and three dozen more attack options in every new book. There is some strange kind of double standards involved here.
Anyway, nitpicking a bit, Sylune is an (un)dead member of the Seven Sisters, whereas Selûne is the FR moon goddess. AFAIK, if anything it will be actually vice versa, as Selûne will take over the role of Sehanine, i.e. the latter becoming an alias of the former. At least within Realmspace.
Have you seen it? ;)
I regard it as utter rubbish. No-one needs this simplification, especially as people who cry foul of oh-so many gods hardly ever raise their voice about five dozen new spells, four dozen new feats and three dozen more attack options in every new book. There is some strange kind of double standards involved here.
Very interesting point here. We could just accept the number of Realms deities and look at it as just another broad range of choices for player characters. However, even that broad range (of feats, prc's, etc.) is a sticking point for many in 3e.
Anyway, nitpicking a bit, Sylune is an (un)dead member of the Seven Sisters, whereas Selûne is the FR moon goddess. AFAIK, if anything it will be actually vice versa, as Selûne will take over the role of Sehanine, i.e. the latter becoming an alias of the former. At least within Realmspace.
Thank you to you and Rinonalyrna for actually responding to that minor worry with a smile. ;) I held my tongue on the Sylune bit to keep things friendly.
-For specific answers, you are going to have to wait for the release of the 4e Forgotten Realms stuff. Otherwise, it's all going to be speculation.
Please, speculate away! :D I'm curious about what type of consolidation(s) people are thinking will or even should happen. If you think some reorganizing is in order, how do you see the divine ranks falling in line? If you think some purging is required, who do you see biting the dust?
I like the revamping of the pantheon....
I'm not a big fan so far. I really don't mind the death of Mystra as a plot device to change the magic system but so much of the changes are pointless
Sehanine is the elven goddess of the feywild's moon, elven dreams, and elven mysteries.
not the same moon no matter how you cut the mustard
Very interesting point here.
-That is an interesting point, that I never really thought of, before. The thing is, though, not all of those people who are "super-optimization" or whatever are for or against things.
Please, speculate away! :D
-Well, in that case...
-As Zanan said, things are going to Hell in a handbasket. :P
-Most of the 'popular' deities will remain. Some of the unpopular deities are going to remain, albeit as exarchs (saints) of the more popular deities. Many demihuman deties are going to be merging with other Human deities, having always been these deities, regardless of continuity problems it causes.
-Overall, it will work and make sense for people who begin playing in the setting from 4e on. But, for anyone who began beforehand, things are always going to look extremely funny. Keep in mind, they are trimming about 150 deities or so (Human + Demihuman deities) into about 30.
-Well, in that case...
-As Zanan said, things are going to Hell in a handbasket. :P
:heehee
-Most of the 'popular' deities will remain. Some of the unpopular deities are going to remain, albeit as exarchs (saints) of the more popular deities.
I'm takin' names here! Err...gimme some.
Many demihuman deties are going to be merging with other Human deities, having always been these deities, regardless of continuity problems it causes. [emphasis mine]
Ooohh.
I see. Well, ...there should be PLENTY of applications on hand for that type of change. 
-Overall, it will work and make sense for people who begin playing in the setting from 4e on. But, for anyone who began beforehand, things are always going to look extremely funny. Keep in mind, they are trimming about 150 deities or so (Human + Demihuman deities) into about 30.
H-what?! :OMG! (Dave Chappelle anyone?) I didn't know they were cutting it down THAT much! I wouldn't even call it "cutting down" at that point. That's like felling a tree and then walking away with a twig in hand! Dang...I hope it's nice twig they pick.
[Edit]Maybe I'll start us off:
Chauntea and Silvanus--same. Shiallia--nixed. Mielikki--Saint of Silvanus. Lurue--"Saint" of Silvanus. Gwaeron--nixed. All demihuman xG-aligned nature deities--merged with Chauntea. All demihuman xN-aligned nature deities--merged with Silvanus.
I'm takin' names here! Err...gimme some.
Maybe I'll start us off:
Chauntea and Silvanus--same. Shiallia--nixed. Mielikki--Saint of Silvanus. Lurue--"Saint" of Silvanus. Gwaeron--nixed. All demihuman xG-aligned nature deities--merged with Chauntea. All demihuman xN-aligned nature deities--merged with Silvanus.
-That's how (seemingly) things will be going. Chauntea is the most powerful 'nature' deity. As such, she's in charge of the nature "mini-pantheon". Silvanus will be there, perhaps as Chauntea's consort. Mielikki will be a servant. Lurue will be a servant. Nobanion, perhaps, will be a servant. Rillifane Rallathil, the member of the Seldarine closest belonging to nature, never actually existed, but instead, is a "mask" that Chauntea/Silvanus wears when dealing with Elves.
H-what?! :OMG! (Dave Chapelle anyone?) I didn't know they were cutting it down THAT much! I wouldn't even call it "cutting down" at that point. That's like felling a tree and then walking away with a twig in hand! Dang...I hope it's nice twig they pick.
-Mind you, a great deal of these deities were either somewhat minor ones (Ubtao, for instance), or Demihuman deities. I remember a while ago, I did a count because someone who disliked the Forgotten Realms but likes Eberron was "spreading rumors" about how th Forgotten Realms has hundreds of deities. I believe there were about 98 Human deities (including those lesser and more oscure ones), and a similar (but lesser) number of Demihuman deities.
So long as Mask lives, I'll be happy. Though I think Tymora should be alive yet, afterall, how can the goddess of luck really hit that hard of a streak?
Mask and Tymora--both live. I've been told this by Bejebuz.
Mask gets the nod for greater power, but the streak of unlucky Faerunians that get snuffed by the spellplague and such pretty much destroys Tymora.
Mask: God
Tymora: Servitor
Sad.
Mask and Tymora--both live. I've been told this by Bejebuz.
Mask gets the nod for greater power, but the streak of unlucky Faerunians that get snuffed by the spellplague and such pretty much destroys Tymora.
Mask: God
Tymora: Servitor
Sad.
Awww...poor Tymora!
I love Mask, but that's gotta suck when your world's luck goddess eats it. Unless....well...."Bejebuz" isn't just one of the voices in your head now, eh, Judge? Dang...are you serious? Won't Tymora just be a depressed spirit floating in the Astral Sea now? Talk about Debbie Downer. What might almost make up for it--well, no. But--I mean--do you think Beshaba totally kicks A now? 
Hmm...such events don't bode well for the likes of, say, Finder (very small godlings). Hm...or do you think since he has all those (RL) books about his adventures and ascension Finder will get a promotion?
Also, what do we think will happen with the House of Knowledge?
Awww...poor Tymora!
Hmm...such events don't bode well for the likes of, say, Finder (very small godlings). Hm...or do you think since he has all those (RL) books about his adventures and ascension Finder will get a promotion?
Also, what do we think will happen with the House of Knowledge?
Don't mock the Sweet Thing that Bejebuz be!!!
Praise him! Praise that Bejebuz, I say!!
Where does Tymora prosper? In the Realms? No--all has turned to dookie there.
Good gods--little. Bad gods--big.
[u]BARRENS OF DOOM AND DESPAIR[/u]
GREATER GODS: Bane
LESSER GODS: Beshaba, Loviatar, Tiamat
DEMIGODS: Gargauth, Talona
[u]BRIGHTWATER[/u]
GREATER GODS: Sune
LESSER GODS: Ilmater, Waukeen
DEMIGODS: Lliira, Sharess, Siamorphe
[u]THE FUGUE PLANE[/u]
GREATER GODS: Kelemvor
DEMIGODS: Jergal
[u]FURY'S HEART[/u]
GREATER GODS: Talos
LESSER GODS: Umberlee
DEMIGODS: Auril, Malar
[u]GATES OF THE MOON[/u]
GREATER GODS: Selune
LESSER GODS: Azuth, Shaundakul
DEMIGODS: Finder Wyvernspur
[u]HOUSE OF KNOWLEDGE[/u]
GREATER GODS: Oghma
LESSER GODS: Gond
DEMIGODS: Deneir, Milil
[u]HOUSE OF NATURE[/u]
GREATER GODS: Chauntea, Silvanus, Ubtao
LESSER GODS: Mielikki
DEMIGODS: Eldath, Gwaeron Windstrom, Lurue, Shiallia
[u]SHADOWFELL[/u] (Not all gods live in the Astral Sea. The Raven Queen, for instance, lives in the Shadowfell)
GREATER GODS: Shar (Although I can see her having a domain in the Astral Sea)
LESSER GODS: Mask (This one seems obvious to me. I doubt he's gonna be a Greater God. And I doubt he's going to be working for anyone. And if he's a Lesser God, then he can't maintain a domain in the Astral Sea. He can, however, hang out in the Shadowfell)
DEMIGODS: Velsharoon (I think he's gonna become Shar's *****)
[u]SUPREME THRONE[/u]
GREATER GODS: Cyric
[u]TRUEHEART[/u]
GREATER GODS: Torm
LESSER GODS: Bahamut, Tymora
DEMIGODS: Hoar, Nobanion
[u]WARRIOR'S REST[/u]
GREATER GODS: Tempus
DEMIGODS: Garagos, Red Knight, Uthgar, Valkur
And Amaunator will likely have his own domain, as well.
All of this is just a guess, of course. Incidentally, I think Akadi, Grumbar, Istishia, and Kossuth are gonna turn out to be Primordials (seems pretty obvious).
Clearly it's not a comprehensive list, as I didn't touch on the Elf, Dwarf, Gnome, Halfling, or Mulhorandi gods. :P
Slacker. Get your ass back to work--what use are you.
What do you mean "what use am I"? I provide links, remember?
Uh, yeah. And you might have been twice as cool if you had provided links that were actually worth a
in the last post. As is, you slackin'. ;)
Thank you to you and Rinonalyrna for actually responding to that minor worry with a smile. ;)
You're welcome.
Selune is the Toril's moon goddess and non evil lycanthropes
Sehanine is the elven goddess of the feywild's moon, elven dreams, and elven mysteries.
not the same moon no matter how you cut the mustard
Rich and the other designers think they might be the same moon.
I'm just going by what Rich has said.
Is the Raven Queen going to be an FR deity?
No. Core gods aren't Forgotten Realms gods aren't Eberron gods etc and so on and so forth.
No. Core gods aren't Forgotten Realms gods aren't Eberron gods etc and so on and so forth.
Thanks god for that
And Greenknight I'd copy your list except for the following:
Team Good
BRIGHTWATER
GREATER GODS: Sune
LESSER GODS: Tymora, Waukeen
DEMIGODS: Lliira, Sharess
Team Lawful Good
TRUEHEART
GREATER GODS: Torm (Tyr occasionally checks by)
LESSER GODS: Red Knight, Ilmater
DEMIGODS: Nobanion, Siamorphe
Really hope WotC listened to the communities rambling about that divine soap fiasco. If they do I hope they'll go with your ideas to make Torm a greater god and rallying and talking some sense to the old triad members. This way Tymora can stay at brightwater and Ilmater at the triad. Not sure If Tyr will abandon his fatihfull, even when they would abhor his actions. Team Lawful Good needs all the support it can get in the dark 15th centurey realms.
I think the Mulhorandi dieties will leave realmspace with Hoar likely in pursuit of Anhur. Helm and Hoar are too complex to define in the new alignment system and are therefore removed.
Thanks god for that
Please, be precise!
Clearly it's not a comprehensive list, as I didn't touch on the Elf, Dwarf, Gnome, Halfling, or Mulhorandi gods. :P
-Excuses, excuses, excuses...
Please, be precise!
-Add some 'action marks' ( :: ) and he's all set to go.
I know the religious "history" of toril says selune and shar were the first gods, but i remember in the avatar series that the gods saw things the way they wished not the way they really were. thus mystra seeing all of her fellow gods as wizards and oghma saw them as researchers.
So they may not have been the first two since it appears AO makes them believe anything he wants.
And Greenknight I'd copy your list except for the following:
Believe me, I'd VASTLY prefer to have Ilmater and Siamorphe back in the House of the Triad/Trueheart/whatever, and Tymora back in Brightwater. But Tyr on the outs doesn't necessarily mean those three go back to where they were, originally, even though Tyr was the reason for all three of those moves.
If I had my way, Team Lawful Good would consist of Torm, Ilmater, Bahamut (the new Triad), Siamorphe, Nobanion, and Hoar. Although when it comes to the Red Knight, I prefer to see her stay at Warrior's Rest. She's more fitting there. Besides, I like the thought of Tempus giving Torm the Evil Eye whenever he shows up looking for the Red Knight. :D
A lot of people seem to think selune will absorb, or turn out to have posed as, Sehanine Moonbow. I propose another possibility.... Sehanine Moonbow's portfolio contains mystery and illusion. We know that torils moon "SELUNE" had is its illusionary face removed to reveal a very lush and habitable world. Sounds right up the alley of a true elven goddess to me. I say the humans were tricked into worshiping an elven godess. in order to hide this secret world.
I know the religious "history" of toril says selune and shar were the first gods, but i remember in the avatar series that the gods saw things the way they wished not the way they really were. thus mystra seeing all of her fellow gods as wizards and oghma saw them as researchers.
So they may not have been the first two since it appears AO makes them believe anything he wants.
Hm...Haven't heard anything about this habitable moon thing. Where's that from? Anyway, sounds like an interesting scenario, but imho probably unlikely. Plus----well, I was gonna say Selune is too iconic-FR to get rid of, but--ahem---HELLO MYSTRA!
(or goodbye rather )Your second paragraph there brings up a good point. I wonder if that "deity perspective" thing actually will come into play in the 4e changes.
Now, you know, what would be really cool is if they found a way to bring Leira back! :D Hehe. And maybe Blink, too, while they're at it. (Oh wait, that was Marvel.
)We know that torils moon "SELUNE" had is its illusionary face removed to reveal a very lush and habitable world. Sounds right up the alley of a true elven goddess to me.
-The illusion on the face of Selûne was put forth by Leira, the deity of illusions.
I know the religious "history" of toril says selune and shar were the first gods, but i remember in the avatar series that the gods saw things the way they wished not the way they really were.
-Ed Greenwood has more or less stated that this is the truth, being as Mystra is the Weave, Chauntea is Abeir-Toril, and Selûne is the moon (Selûne).
Hm...Haven't heard anything about this habitable moon thing. Where's that from?
-Spelljammer. The Realmspace supplement.
-Spelljammer. The Realmspace supplement.
I've never read that. Any good?
I've never read that. Any good?
-I thought so.
Any substance to the rumour I heard about Talos and Gruumsh being merged?
Gruumsh is still in the Core Setting, one of the two Chaotic Evil deities (guess who might be the other!). I doubt that they will eradicate this for the Realms and I wonder wether they make the audacious step and rob us off the HEad of the Gods of Fury. Just imagine Gruumsh being superior of Auril, Malar and Co. ...
Gruumsh is still in the Core Setting, one of the two Chaotic Evil deities (guess who might be the other!)
Umm... Richard Simmons?
Any substance to the rumour I heard about Talos and Gruumsh being merged?
No, but apparently they are dating
Bahamut (LG) [Justice, Honor, Nobility, Protection]
Moradin (LG) [Creation, Artisans, Family]
Avandra (G) [Change, Luck, Trade, Travel]
Pelor (G) [Sun, Summer, Agriculture, Time]
Corellon (U) [Arcane Magic, Spring, Beauty, the Arts]
Erathis (U) [Civilization, Invention, Laws]
Ioun (U) [Knowledge, Prophecy, Skill]
Kord (U) [Storms, Strength, Battle]
Melora (U) [Wilderness, Sea]
Raven Queen (U) [Death, Fate, Winter]
Sehanine (U) [Trickery, Moon, Love, Autumn]
Asmodeus (E) [Power, Domination, Tyranny]
Bane (E) [War, Conquest]
Tiamat (E) [Wealth, Greed, Vengeance]
Torog (E) [Underdark, Imprisonment]
Vecna (E) [Undeath, Secrets]
Zehir (E) [Darkness, Poison, Serpents]
Gruumsh (CE) [Turmoil, Destruction]
Lolth (CE) [Spiders, Shadows, Lies]
Tharizdun (CE) [Annihilation, Madness]
Hmm. A Paladin/Warlock multiclass combo who worships Asmodeus sounds like it'd make for a pretty cool villain.
Hmm. A Paladin/Warlock multiclass combo who worships Asmodeus sounds like it'd make for a pretty cool villain.
That's because Asmodeus is a cool deity.;) :D
Any substance to the rumour I heard about Talos and Gruumsh being merged?
-Don't know. Odds are, we are going to have to wait for the FRCG
Here's the Core Pantheon, just for the hell of it...
-Interesting.
That's because Asmodeus is a cool deity.;) :D
Sure enough
I do as a whole like the Core pantheon in 4e better than 3e
-I don't like Asmodeus as a deity. As an entity as powerful as a deity, sure, but not as a deity. I don't like my powerful Archdevils, Demon Lords, and other entities mixing with my deities.
I think it might have merit for the core setting, but definatly doesn't feel right in the Realms.
What got me to asking:
Rich Baker said the main deities FR began with would be in place, and I thought (could be wrong) he also implied that really, most of the FR deities would still be present...except that of course "saint, servitor, exarch" etc. would all count as "present." [Edit: Oh, yeah. I was thinking of when he said they weren't going to go cutting things out of the Realms on purpose just for the sake of making it match core. Some feel they've done this already, but let's not get too far off topic please.] So...
I can see it working sort of like the way Uthgar was worshiped through different totems. Except we would be speaking idealistically at this point. Tempus is your god, yet you serve him through devotion to Red Knight, which advocates the strategic aspect of his portfolio.
-I don't like Asmodeus as a deity. As an entity as powerful as a deity, sure, but not as a deity. I don't like my powerful Archdevils, Demon Lords, and other entities mixing with my deities.
Very much so. It is quite annoying that they need to change this just for changes sake. Be that spell names, class names, cosmologies, or rankings of demon lords or archdevils. There is no gain whatsoever, but lots of discrepancies and discontinuity and misunderstandings.
Very much so. It is quite annoying that they need to change this just for changes sake. Be that spell names, class names, cosmologies, or rankings of demon lords or archdevils. There is no gain whatsoever, but lots of discrepancies and discontinuity and misunderstandings.
I like Asmosues as a deity in Core
I like Asmosues as a deity in Core
Why? Does it change anything compared to 3RE and Tyrants of the Nine Hells? Apart from the fact that a character would need a feat to chose him as "divine" patron? There is no gain for the gaming world whatsoever, IMHO.
Why?
I don't know really why I like it. I just kind of like the idea of the head Devil being a deity. It just works for me in the core setting that is. I actually like the "core" deities list
He's not Bejebuz, but I guess he does deserve some props.
I don't know really why I like it. I just kind of like the idea of the head Devil being a deity. It just works for me in the core setting that is.
Yeah, those are my feelings as well. It just works for me.
The picture of him in the preview material is wicked hot, too!I don't know really why I like it. I just kind of like the idea of the head Devil being a deity. It just works for me in the core setting that is. I actually like the "core" deities list
-What's the difference if he's a Devil, or a Deity? He's already a Devil, so leave him a Devil. Why bother crossing the lines, so to speak?
I can get that. People do worship Satan.
He's not Bejebuz, but I guess he does deserve some props.
-They worship him as a Devil, and not as G-d. Satanists acknowledge that G-d is G-d, and that Satan is not G-d.
-What's the difference if he's a Devil, or a Deity? He's already a Devil, so leave him a Devil. Why bother crossing the lines, so to speak?
Then again, why not?
-They worship him as a Devil, and not as G-d. Satanists acknowledge that G-d is G-d, and that Satan is not G-d.
Yet, if he was a figure in FR, such worship would dictate things differently.
Symbols have changed, the elven gods they talked about as fey, not as elven. Now, I really didn't get to do hard core reading, but does anyone know of when they might give us an article or something outlining the gods?
Visit any of the pantheon threads that are currently active and you will find what you are seeking.
The realms are not to get a lot of focus on the bloodwar (and I think it's a shame) but we've had Gargauth as a diety devil for a while, and if he is an example of how Asmo is going to scheme in the realms I'd be all for it.
Then again, why not?
-Because he has always been a Archdevil, and not a deity. Why arbitrarily change things? And, I am also a big proponent of extraplanar creatures being so powerful that they can challenge deities, and play "on the same stage" as them without actually being deities: Archdevils, Demon Lords, Slaad Lords, Primus the One, The Eladrin Queen, and so on. It adds more "spice".
Yet, if he was a figure in FR, such worship would dictate things differently.
-Concerning cosmological issues, here and there are radically different, if you want to accept that the common Judeo-Christian view on things is, in fact, the correct one.
-Concerning cosmological issues, here and there are radically different, if you want to accept that the common Judeo-Christian view on things is, in fact, the correct one.
I'm aware of that. And the comment was made in half-jest, so I don't think we need to get into facts at all.
Oh, yes. And that banning has worked wonders.
-No, no. I meant that the discussion of those topics are universally banned, not that those who do the discussing are banned.
-No, no. I meant that the discussion of those topics are universally banned, not that those who do the discussing are banned.
I understood you just fine. My sarcasm stems from the fact that I have seen several topics turn to both those subjects. Never has a Wiz-O stepped in to state warning or clean up.
I understood you just fine. My sarcasm stems from the fact that I have seen several topics turn to both those subjects. Never has a Wiz-O stepped in to state warning or clean up.
-Oh, oh, gotcha. Yeah, well, enforcement is always the problem. ;)
-Oh, oh, gotcha. Yeah, well, enforcement is always the problem. ;)
Not when NoPity is around. I just got stripped three posts, simply because I placated him with a couple "Yo' Momma" jokes. ;)
BTW...speaking of enforcement, how went the test?
Not when NoPity is around. I just got stripped three posts, simply because I placated him with a couple "Yo' Momma" jokes. ;)
-Yeah, well...
BTW...speaking of enforcement, how went the test?
-Excellent, actually. Thanks for asking.
18DELTA
Does anyone remember a thread called FR...just the facts?
-Utilize the 'Search' function.
I'm curious on the fate of moander and can't find it.
-Moander died...A while ago. Nothing has been done concerning it, except that Lolth is granting spells to some debased Elven worshipers in it's name.
And, to reiterate Karsus, as he beat me to it by a minute. Moander is, indeed, dead. Faiths and Avatars explicitly states this point--he will not be coming back in anyway shape or form.
The search feature was bugginout on me tried it like 4 different times. Everytime it would result in an error. Thanks for the answer.
-I does that sometimes.
The search feature was bugginout on me tried it like 4 different times. Everytime it would result in an error. Thanks for the answer.
Sorry then if I sounded demeaning in anyway. Too many people lately asking questions without looking for answers first. ;)
I wrote an article about one of the Astral Dominions, not about the pantheon itself. You'll see my article around September.
-Thanks. I stand corrected then BRJ. :D
18DELTA
WTF? That was the one thing FR had too many of, and half of them were asleep for ages.
And in the end, I think it was Set who was juggling ALL of their portfolios. Does this mean Set gets a downgrade? I was hoping for a bigger, more prominent Set.
I guess this Zehir dude is going to kill him and take his stuff (they did say they wanted to do away with the RW gods in FR...)
Yesterday, this was a single thread. Then, overnight, they combine this thread with one or two others. Now, I wouldn't have minded if they had tossed in an "Insert" note or attached them to the back of the thread, but they randomly dropped crap right into the middle of things and completely destroyed the continuity that was there.
Not fair, Wiz-O's!!!
It's like tossing rat droppings into our Raisin Bran. How the hell are we supposed to know whats supposed to be there and whats not?!!
OK, NOW I'M MAD!!!
Yesterday, this was a single thread. Then, overnight, they combine this thread with one or two others. Now, I wouldn't have minded if they had tossed in an "Insert" note or attached them to the back of the thread, but they randomly dropped crap right into the middle of things and completely destroyed the continuity that was there.
Not fair, Wiz-O's!!!
It's like tossing rat droppings into our Raisin Bran. How the hell are we supposed to know whats supposed to be there and whats not?!!
-Oh, that's what happened. I recommended the newest of the topics that was opened be closed, and when I found this, I thought I used the wrong link. Merging them is a good idea, but, yeah, I agree, I wish there a little post mentioning that they were merged.
-Oh, that's what happened. I recommended the newest of the topics that was opened be closed, and when I found this, I thought I used the wrong link. Merging them is a good idea, but, yeah, I agree, I wish there a little post mentioning that they were merged.
Yeah, that's what happened--though the way it was done just sux. It looks like they looked at the last post of one thread and and transfered it right behind the same poster in another thread at some random place.
I mean, how can you have a thread that has been talking about 4e gods for four pages suddenly get a post asking about "has anybody heard about the new 4e gods?"
Help! Do you call yourself Lord Karsus?
I was in Borders books yesterday buying the third "Lady Penitent" book and I thought I would look over the 4e players handbook. I flipped over to the clerics page to look over what had been changed. I came to the section for the gods that they listed, WOW!!
Well the 4E philosophy about the gods is that they don't have a "race" to begin with. To quote from the PHB, Corellon is no more fey than Moradin is a dwarf. Bahamut is no more a dragon than any other race of beings. This fits in with the fact that the gods are less racially tied in than they were before. Dwarves tend to worship Moradin, but he's also worshipped by members of the other player races who share his ideals (family, craftsmanship, etc.).
I think Rino is gonna get a bit peeved that you are wearing her face. Hope you didn't use a chainsaw or anything.
I don't mind. Much.;) :P
I don't mind. Much.;) :P
Well, then don't dare get bit*hy cause I get midevil on one of you and don't remember who!!
There's a new expansion coming out for Neverwinter Nights 2 called "Storm of Zehir", Zehir happens to be one of the new 4th edition core deities, it seems that he'll be in FR too, he's a serpent god (in the game he'll be worshiped by Yuan-Ti) that has very similar flavor to Shar (secrets, darkness, etc.)
Nope, not according to Brian R. James (on Candlekeep). Zehir is not a 4E Realms deity, he is only core, no matter what the game might say (NWN games are fun, but don't have the greatest track record regarding canon lore).
Well, then don't dare get bit*hy cause I get midevil on one of you and don't remember who!!
Wouldn't work, I'm too powerful.;)
Me?
I don't dig chicks with red hair.
I don't mind. Much.;) :P
yeah right. I know you're just steaming.
NWN aren't even close to canon
Thanks god for that
Your God, not mine ;)
BARRENS OF DOOM AND DESPAIR
GREATER GODS: Bane
LESSER GODS: Loviatar, Tiamat
EXARCH: Gargauth, Talona
BRIGHTWATER
GREATER GODS: Sune
LESSER GODS: Tymora
EXARCH: Lliira, Sharess, Siamorphe
DEMONWEBS: THE ABYSS
LESSER GODS: Lolth
ELEMENTAL CHAOS
Akadi, Grumbar, Istishia, and Kossuth
THE FUGUE PLANE
GREATER GODS: Kelemvor
EXARCH: Jergal
FURY'S HEART
GREATER GODS: Talos
LESSER GODS: Umberlee, Gruumsh
EXARCH: Auril, Malar
GATES OF THE MOON
GREATER GODS: Selune
LESSER GODS: Sehanine, Shaundakul
EXARCH: Finder Wyvernspur
HEART OF DARKNESS
GREATER GODS: Shar
LESSER GODS: Mask, Beshaba
HOUSE OF KNOWLEDGE
GREATER GODS: Oghma
LESSER GODS: Gond
EXARCH: Deneir, Milil
HOUSE OF NATURE
GREATER GODS: Chauntea, Silvanus, Corellon
LESSER GODS: Mielikki, Ubtao
EXARCH: Eldath, Gwaeron Windstrom, Lurue, Shiallia
SUPREME THRONE
GREATER GODS: Cyric
TOWER OF THE SUN
GREATER GODS: Amaunator
TRUEHEART
GREATER GODS: Torm
LESSER GODS: Bahamut, Ilmater
EXARCH: Hoar, Nobanion, Waukeen
WARRIOR'S REST
GREATER GODS: Tempus
LESSER GODS: Moradin
EXARCH: Garagos, Red Knight, Uthgar, Valkur
Just my take on it.
Bel
Bel
-Regardless of where it is (Arvandor), the two would/should not be separated.
And Mystra shouldn't be dead either, right? :P I'm just teasin' ya.
Hey, the moon is full (or just about) and I was walking outside a little while ago when I thought about the FR moon-illusion thing. What if Selune (the orb), now seen as lush and green and all that, is the new Feywild?? Then the House of the Moon and Arvandor would be the same or next to each other. Seemed like an interesting possibility to me.
And Mystra shouldn't be dead either, right? :P I'm just teasin' ya.
-That, I don't care about. ;)
Most exarchs will walk the primes on the name of their superiors, so Nobanion wont be dwelling the domain of Torm or Silvanus much in any case.
A lot of candidates for this role, and I wouldn't have minded if they had done this more to lessen the diecide count. So far I would say the following of the fearunian pantheon could get exarch status:
Gargauth (back to unique devil), Talona, Lliira, Sharess, Siamorphe, Shaundakul, Finder Wyvernspur, Deneir, Milil, Eldath, Gwaeron Windstrom, Lurue, Shiallia, Hoar, Nobanion, Waukeen, Garagos, Red Knight, Uthgar, Valkur
All of these are gonna turn out as epic threats to crack, once a campaign, if your players want too. Guess a few more evil exarchs might do then...
Can't say I much care about Sehanine, so stick her where you want I say. Mystra on the other hand... :P
see I like Sehanine better
Can't say I much care about Sehanine, so stick her where you want I say. Mystra on the other hand... :P
Yeah, but Mystra's dead, perhaps she moved to the Fugue Plain.
Bel
Yeah, but you're a MerrikCale, so your opinion doesn't count. :P :D
hmmmm...now Stigger sounds like my wife and kids...hmmmmmmm.......I never have seen Stigger and my wife in the same room at the same time.....hmmmmmm.......
hmmmm...now Stigger sounds like my wife and kids...hmmmmmmm.......I never have seen Stigger and my wife in the same room at the same time.....hmmmmmm.......
-The only conclusion that makes sense, in that case, is that Stigger is your wife and kids.
-The only conclusion that makes sense, in that case, is that Stigger is your wife and kids.
I suppose he could be either.
or one of my secretaries at the office
or one of my neighbors
or relatives
or ex college roommates
or a gaming buddy
or, well, just about anyone I know really
Yup Merrik, Stig is the producer and director of "The Truman Show" staring you!
I would believe that if I didn't that my life on TV would have been cancelled about 6 episodes in
I would believe that if I didn't that my life on TV would have been cancelled about 6 episodes in
-That's probably better than a lot of other stuff out there.
-To be on-topic, now, I wonder what holy symbols will be changing...
Remember, also, that a lot of them won't actually be written up. Just because Nobanion is an Exarch, for instance, it doesn't mean they'll be writing up stats for him. Even if a party of level 30 characters can potetially kill him.
Not to derail the conversation but all those gods that will change into exarchs end up as creatures we can kill right? At least that is how I understand it, exarchs are lvl 30+ solos for campaign ends.
-Let's hope not...
Good point, there. Orcus is a Level 33 Solo, while Yeenoghu is a Level 28 Solo, so naturally their Exarchs will be weaker. In comparison, I think Rich said that Moradin was roughly equivalent to a Level 38 Solo. So yeah, you're probably right in that the Exarchs for the gods will be tougher.
By a "level 28 solo", do they literally mean "one character of lvl 28 could reasonably fight XYZ"?
Nono, a solo monster is a monster that is designed to be a challenge to a balanced party of five of equal level. Elites are balanced to count as two normal monsters and minions are balanced so that four of them count as a monster. Every monster has an XP value and encounters have an XP budget by level and number of characters. You mix and max however many monsters you want within -3,+7 of the character level and you have yourself an encounter (or you can add traps or terrain features in place of monsters, they have XP values as well).
Ah, ok, interesting.
-I still find it..."lacking" that one of the most terrible entities throughout the multiverse, who has defied even death itself, and slain numerous deities with nothing but a thought and a word, is "on par" with 5 30th level characters.
That's like 5 Elminsters, which is pretty impressive. Also, keep in mind that this represents their stats outside of their homeplane. In their homeplane, they are all but immortal.
-I still find it..."lacking" that one of the most terrible entities throughout the multiverse, who has defied even death itself, and slain numerous deities with nothing but a thought and a word, is "on par" with 5 30th level characters.
Hey, I'd say more myself, but it'd probably be too "negative". ;)
That said, the Age of Worms adventure path featured some pretty terrible entities. Players didn't have to fight most of them, of course, but it was fascinating. More and more, players (or perhaps game designers generally, not just at WotC) want the "ultimate" fight rather than more subtle 1-2nd level adventuring. I'm not terribly fond of the trend, especially as it relates to FR.
And killing Orcus is a time honored tradition. We have been killing of demon princes in modules since the first edition.
Depends entirely on the DM, and the group. Most people I know have not gone the epic / legendary route, as it pretty much means the story is over (if not devolved into munchinism). After one defeats the ultimate foe, be it a demon prince or evil god or the like, where does one go from there in terms of roleplaying?
ANOTHER scaley god for FR?
WTF? That was the one thing FR had too many of, and half of them were asleep for ages.
And in the end, I think it was Set who was juggling ALL of their portfolios. Does this mean Set gets a downgrade? I was hoping for a bigger, more prominent Set.
I guess this Zehir dude is going to kill him and take his stuff (they did say they wanted to do away with the RW gods in FR...)
Personally I think Zehir is just what resulted when Set absorbed Sseth/Merreshaulk completly. So its essentially Set 2.0.
Hey, I'd say more myself, but it'd probably be too "negative". ;)
-Right.
More and more, players (or perhaps game designers generally, not just at WotC) want the "ultimate" fight rather than more subtle 1-2nd level adventuring. I'm not terribly fond of the trend, especially as it relates to FR.
-Agreed.
-Right.
-Agreed.
Yep, seems to be the unfortunate trend.
Well what I was saying was not refering to how people run their campaigns but rather to how WotC is running their storylines. Since 1E there have been published modules that involve slaying demon lords (but never archdevils since they are more organized . . .). Not to mention how many john doe adventurers have done so in their novels. In short this is not something rare but rather something that has always been encouraged.
-Well, that is just an aspect of High Fantasy/Sword and Sorcery you have to expect. The little guys grow up and bring down the great villains. D&D is just like Norse Mythology, mortals can kill divine entities, since they are nothing more than superpowered monsters that manipulate the world from above (or below).
-The only real exception to this was in Planescape, which isn't High Fantasy.
Yep, seems to be the unfortunate trend.
-Which aspect?
In short this is not something rare but rather something that has always been encouraged.
-Doing so, I feel, should be something rare, however, and not..."expected", as putting Orcus in the Monster Manual implies.
With that in mind, demon princes and gods were -so- far above players that I have a hard time believing that such adventures (i.e. killing a god or demon prince, not just interacting with their servants or visiting their plane) are anything other than rare. Some players and campaigns, yes, focus only on epic play, and that's fine for those who like epic play, but it's not exactly what I'd call "encouraged" or the norm.
Doing so, I feel, should be something rare, however, and not..."expected", as putting Orcus in the Monster Manual implies.
I think you're absolutely right, in that putting them into the Monster Manual did start the trend toward epic play. One sees the picture of Orcus and the inner child goes "wow, Orcus is so cool I need to kill him!!!" Of course, the only way to kill Orcus is to be very high level and outfitted with the best set of artifacts that one can find, which led to monty haul dungeons and munchkin-style playing (particularly with really young kids, "I have a +5 vorpal blade, you don't! Neener, neener!"... "Well, I killed Elric of Melnibone on Tuesday, and I have his sword so you lose!"). What was originally meant to whet the appetite has spun hugely out of control, I think.
-I still find it..."lacking" that one of the most terrible entities throughout the multiverse, who has defied even death itself, and slain numerous deities with nothing but a thought and a word, is "on par" with 5 30th level characters.
Yet you prove a point. It is easy for a character to kill a powerful being like Orcus, if you have the right level. No, the trouble starts after you kill him. Cause one of his hundred back up plans start up to bring him back from the dead, and Orcus is likely to remember who sent him to visit the Styx. He'll likely spend his next century trying to bring those heroes to their doom. Then eat their souls like sweet rotten candies.
Gods are like Zombies; killing them is easy, it keeping them down which is the hard part.
It is easy for a character to kill a powerful being like Orcus, if you have the right level.
-Right. My issue is that Level 30 isn't the "right" level. I had the same issue in 3e, for those keeping track.
Gods are like Zombies; killing them is easy, it keeping them down which is the hard part.
-Only Orcus (who isn't a exactly deity, but close enough), Bane and Mystra. Everyone else, not so much, really.
-Right. My issue is that Level 30 isn't the "right" level. I had the same issue in 3e, for those keeping track.
Yes, Karsus would have you at Level 45678456 before you are able to kill a fatty with a stick (no offense to Orcus, he is one of the more interesting Demon Princes)
The point is Karsus, that most campaigns beyond lv 30 are redundant as you will have to run monsters so strong that they will probably eclipse earlier boss monsters and disrupt your precious cosmologies to keep the players entertained and doing all that math is slow and boring. Therefore, I am not opposed to running Orcus in a game at lv 30. He is still a tough monster to kill and a good DM would likely increase his strength by giving him special advantages and such. If demon lords can be final bosses in video games, why not D&D. That's how they did it in the old days, long before Planescape immortalized them all.
Not that I believe it should be that way, but 1E was like that.
Being just about to reach epic level in our currrent caampaign, which is ending soon, I don't think we should be able to challenge demon lords, archdevils or demigods yet.
Bel
We killed Orcus in Vault of the Drow at 13th level! Our Paladin accosted a succubus 'party girl' and she had a percentage chance of summoning a Demon Lord. DM rolled bad for init and we rolled really good on our attacks, got some crits and before we knew it, boom, dead demon lord.
Not that I believe it should be that way, but 1E was like that.
Being just about to reach epic level in our currrent caampaign, which is ending soon, I don't think we should be able to challenge demon lords, archdevils or demigods yet.
Bel
Naughty, naughty Paladin. Hey, did Paladins lose their powers if they weren't LG in 1st edition?
Well, I agree. I don't think your party should be able to fight archfiends and gods until they are well into their epic levels, and still it should be an immense challenge requiring multiple skilled players. I do think though that 4e handles the problem well by giving a level cap for characters (30), and then making it so that only the greatest heroes can defeat the divine and unholy paragons of the multiverse. It dosen't diminish the deity/archfiend in name's status and really gives the players something to work for. I mean, who woudn't want to kill Orcus in Thanatos and then ascend his dark throne.:D
Yes, Karsus would have you at Level 45678456 before you are able to kill a fatty with a stick (no offense to Orcus, he is one of the more interesting Demon Princes)
The point is Karsus, that most campaigns beyond lv 30 are redundant as you will have to run monsters so strong that they will probably eclipse earlier boss monsters and disrupt your precious cosmologies to keep the players entertained and doing all that math is slow and boring. Therefore, I am not opposed to running Orcus in a game at lv 30. He is still a tough monster to kill and a good DM would likely increase his strength by giving him special advantages and such. If demon lords can be final bosses in video games, why not D&D. That's how they did it in the old days, long before Planescape immortalized them all.
-The repercussions of something such as that would be exactly why, as a DM, I don't have my players do such things.
-I still find it..."lacking" that one of the most terrible entities throughout the multiverse, who has defied even death itself, and slain numerous deities with nothing but a thought and a word, is "on par" with 5 30th level characters.
Orcus is 33rd-level, so he's a little bit more then on par. And as someone else pointed out, we're talking about PC's who're the equivalent of Elminster, the Simbul, Halaster, Szass Tam, and Khelben (27th, but only other high level character I could think of). Hmm. I wonder how those five would do against the 3.5 Orcus?
Orcus is 33rd-level, so he's a little bit more then on par. And as someone else pointed out, we're talking about PC's who're the equivalent of Elminster, the Simbul, Halaster, Szass Tam, and Khelben (27th, but only other high level character I could think of). Hmm. I wonder how those five would do against the 3.5 Orcus?
-And, even them, I'd have a problem with, though, less than some random adventurers. I'm very picky.
-And, even them, I'd have a problem with, though, less than some random adventurers. I'm very picky.
Would you let your players kill anyone important?
Yes, Karsus would have you at Level 45678456 before you are able to kill a fatty with a stick ...
*drop walking stick*
-I still find it..."lacking" that one of the most terrible entities throughout the multiverse, who has defied even death itself, and slain numerous deities with nothing but a thought and a word, is "on par" with 5 30th level characters.
I think the idea is that those 30th level PCs have earned their power and have themselves become major forces in the multiverse.
Orcus is 33rd-level, so he's a little bit more then on par. And as someone else pointed out, we're talking about PC's who're the equivalent of Elminster, the Simbul, Halaster, Szass Tam, and Khelben (27th, but only other high level character I could think of). Hmm. I wonder how those five would do against the 3.5 Orcus?
You would only need one of them.
After one defeats the ultimate foe, be it a demon prince or evil god or the like, where does one go from there in terms of roleplaying?
As you've said, it's all up to the DM, but according the 4E core rulebooks, you more or less retire your PCs.
Would you let your players kill anyone important?
-No. NPCs don't become "important" if it were easy for anybody to come walking by and kill them in the first place.
-That, and the majority of my players are stupid, so...
I think the idea is that those 30th level PCs have earned their power and have themselves become major forces in the multiverse.
-See, I just can't accept that. Karsus was a 41st Level Wizard, and he was not a major force in the multiverse. Ioulaum, with all of his templates and levels and such, is something like CR 59, I believe. CR 59! And, he isn't a major force in the multiverse, either.
-Like I said, I am picky.
You would only need one of them.
Nah, since the Lv.33 Orcus is a boss monster, which means that he would be a suitable match from about 5 PCs of max level.
Oh, and congradulations Karsus, you are no longer Lv.41 but you are now a major cosmic force.
LK the way you seem to treat your players is exactly why people have been asking for the Seven Sisters and every powerful spellcaster in the Realms to be killed. So technically if any of them die, it's your fault.
-Well, you're a nymrohd, so...
Oh, and congradulations Karsus, you are no longer Lv.41 but you are now a major cosmic force.
-I started to think of something witty, like, "Oh, I was a major cosmic force in her universe", or something like that, but I just feel uninspired right now.
-I started to think of something witty, like, "Oh, I was a major cosmic force in his universe", or something like that, but I just feel uninspired right now.
Yes, that is what you would say.
Yes, that is what you would say.
-If you are going to modify someone's post, at least try to be subtle about it. That's like, so blatant.
-If you are going to modify someone's post, at least try to be subtle about it. That's like, so blatant.
Tis my point, oh so mighty and subtle jewish archmagi of dusty old libraries.;)
-Archmagi is plural. I, myself, am only one aspect of the tripartite Karsus. The only aspect around here, anymore. Thus, I'd be Archmage.
-Jewish grammar Nazi...
Hitler was a Jew. I would also draw one of those funny little caps on his head if I knew how.
Hitler was a Jew.
-In theory. A grandmother of his had a last name that could have been Ashkenazi. That, however, does not necessarily make him Jewish. If it was his paternal grandmother, for example, he wouldn't be Jewish. One "inherits" their Jewishness from the maternal line, not the paternal line. And, of course, a maternal grandmother with such a last name doesn't necessarily make her Jewish, either. A friend of mine, Matthew Sullivan, does not have an ounce of Irish blood in him. He's Albanian on his father's side.
-In theory. A grandmother of his had a last name that could have been Ashkenazi. That, however, does not necessarily make him Jewish. If it was his paternal grandmother, for example, he wouldn't be Jewish. One "inherits" their Jewishness from the maternal line, not the paternal line. And, of course, a maternal grandmother with such a last name doesn't necessarily make her Jewish, either. A friend of mine, Matthew Sullivan, does not have an ounce of Irish blood in him. He's Albanian on his father's side.
Still, that dosen't mean that anyone with Jewish blood coudn't have been a Nazi if they were ignorant of their heritage.
Still, that dosen't mean that anyone with Jewish blood coudn't have been a Nazi if they were ignorant of their heritage.
-Nazi policy excluded Jews, based on their "Jewishness", one factor of which included surname. Several secular, German Jews perished in the Holocaust.
I love how half the posts on these forums are off topic. . .
-I love how half of the threads in this section are all basically the same thing over and over.
-Nazi policy excluded Jews, based on their "Jewishness", one factor of which included surname. Several secular, German Jews perished in the Holocaust.
.
Well, there could be a Nazi Jew with a last name of O'Higgins.:D
Well, there could be a Nazi Jew with a last name of O'Higgins.:D
-You do your research on that, and get back to me. ;)
-You do your research on that, and get back to me. ;)
Its not that hard, he just has to have an Irish father.
-See, I just can't accept that. Karsus was a 41st Level Wizard, and he was not a major force in the multiverse.
:OMG!
Were you just being humble?
:OMG!
Were you just being humble?
No, he was just being a spoiled brat 'cause WoTC never made him a big boy when he was top of the line (so to say) and not just another lv 30 character.
Its not that hard, he just has to have an Irish father.
-Now you're just being silly!
:OMG!
Were you just being humble?
-No, just being realistic. Karsus was a 41st level character, who came from Realmspace, by canon a "backwater" Crystal Sphere, that did achieve a mastery of magic never before seen, nor never seen again, sure, but he was hardly a force in the entire multiverse. Realmspace, sure. Everywhere else? Not so much. Ask a wizard in Krynn who Karsus is, and they are likely to not know (assuming that we're in the present).
-Now you're just being silly!
-No, just being realistic. Karsus was a 41st level character, who came from Realmspace, by canon a "backwater" Crystal Sphere, that did achieve a mastery of magic never before seen, nor never seen again, sure, but he was hardly a force in the entire multiverse. Realmspace, sure. Everywhere else? Not so much. Ask a wizard in Krynn who Karsus is, and they are likely to not know (assuming that we're in the present).
FR was backwater???? And here I was thinking Abeir-Toril was consitered quite high-leveled in magical power.
LK that is faulty logic. Karsus was not a force in the multiverse for the very simple reason that he did not bother to become a force in the multiverse. The factol of the Sensates in Planescape was level 9 and was probably the most powerful woman in Sigil. The archmages of Netheril inspired terror in realmspace equal to that of the illithid since they could overpower anything (and had a tendency to vivisect it afterwards). The chant in Sigil says that even the best of bloods beware when they visit Toril cause they may stumble into meddlesome archmages. The Simbul paid a brief visit to the Nine Hells and killed half the exiled archdevils on Avernus.
Yeah, personally I don't consiter that canon as much as I consiter that Ed at a bar getting drunk. In the Planescape context however, all prime worlds on their own are backwaters.
FR was backwater???? And here I was thinking Abeir-Toril was consitered quite high-leveled in magical power.
-Yep. Being "High Level" doesn't necessarily mean anything, though. I mean, plenty of great things are made in backwater places, you know.
LK that is faulty logic. Karsus was not a force in the multiverse for the very simple reason that he did not bother to become a force in the multiverse.
-But, in the end of the day, he wasn't a force in the multiverse. Should we assume that every single NPC and PC that reach this plateau go out of their way to bother to become a force in the multiverse? No, I don't think so. Again, my own DMing philosophies.
-Yep. Being "High Level" doesn't necessarily mean anything, though. I mean, plenty of great things are made in backwater places, you know.
.
And this is where Planescape starts losing sense for me.
Well in Planescape, belief was more important than character level. Signers could imagine you not existing for instance.
Well, there is that fact that personal power is (or at least should be) a major factor in the force of your will upon reality. A perfect example is that higher level characters and creatures can better manipulate the effects in Limbo and keep a more stable enviornment for longer durations.
And this is where Planescape starts losing sense for me.
-I don't get where Planescape comes in.
-That said, Planescape and Spelljammer (the two "cross-setting" settings) do raise some cans of worms, when you start applying principles found in either or and principles found in individual settings all together.
Ask a wizard in Krynn who Karsus is, and they are likely to not know (assuming that we're in the present).
The thing with Karsus is his flameout. He could've easily become as wellknown as Bigby or Mordenkainen, if not moreso, had he not blown it.
Why? An innocent child that at best would be a 1st level commoner could hold stronger to his belief than a 30th level archmage. Planescape was all about the power of belief and the laws of the planes. It was knowledge of how the planes worked that made the yugoloths able to challenge gods. Planescape mainly took place in the outer planes that were practically incarnations of belief. So in essence belief affected them the same way that power affects the material plane.
Still, this is D&D, and as strong as the belief is if you don't have substantial power to back it up your will cannot be imposed upon reality as strongly. Of course I'm talking mostly from the context of gameplay.
The thing with Karsus is his flameout. He could've easily become as wellknown as Bigby or Mordenkainen, if not moreso, had he not blown it.
:P
Well Karsus certainly had a very low Wisdom . . .
-How could he have foreseen that Mystryl would have acted all stupid and sacrificed herself? Or, technically, that he would be incapable of controlling the Weave during the time he lived in?
-How could he have foreseen that Mystryl would have acted all stupid and sacrificed herself? Or, technically, that he would be incapable of controlling the Weave during the time he lived in?
I dunno, ask yourself;)
I'm SO going to put that in my sig...Imagine that... selflessness must just be some really foreign concept to a person who just thinks of the gods as uber-powerful archmages... that was the general belief of the Great Netherese, wasn't it?
-Correct, it was.
do it