P.S. Drizzt sucks
I don't know if there is a father, but Chauntea is a goddes. She doesn't need one to get kids.
Selune and Shar are the daughters of Chauntea.
-Reverse that. Seûne and Shar, in the myths, were the first two deities of Realmspace, and from them stemmed Mystra, Chauntea, and others.
At this time it is clear that the only light is Selune - the Moon. Shar is not evil at this time. They happily get along and co-exist.
However, they become separated and at odds over whether or not to bring light to the world. It is obvious, however, why Shar would be opposed to that as she is the deity of the night. Light effectively weakens her.
Shar and Selune have a sisterly spat, that results in the formation of more gods, and eventually, Selune reaches outside the confines of the world - into the Plane of Fire - and pulls out a large part of it. She burns herself badly and is weakened, but she creates the sun which gives the needed warmth to Chauntea.
This, of course, is a betrayal in Shar's eyes and Shar attempts to snuff it out. However, Selune, ripping off a part of her divine essence hurls it at Shar. It passes through her, ripping off part of her divine essence. The two parts then merged into a single form which was Mystryl.
Mystryl then sides with Selune putting an end to the conflict. At least for the time being. Shar then skulks off, to nurse her bitterness and wounds in secret while plotting revenge.
It is important to keep in mind that all of these deities are Netherese deities and this is a Netherese creation myth. At one point in time there were many different pantheons of human deities. However, after the fall of many of the old empires of old (Jhaamdath, Netheril, etc.) humans began to migrate across the world, bringing with them their gods.
Many of the gods, such as Auppenser and Amaunator faded away due to lack of worship. (Although Auppenser was kept alive by Mystra in a deep sleep.)
The gods you see today in the Faerunian Pantheon are simply a mish-mash of the most popular gods that survived over the centuries. The Netherese deities did very well, and most of them are still alive in one form or another. Shar, Selune and Mystra were powerful deities with central key roles that were easily understood by mortals (Shar is the night and darkness, Selune is the Moon and Mystra is Magic) and thus this creation myth gained popularity. However, it was not the only creation myth.
I think about 90% of the deities though are from Acendency, not birth.
I think about 90% of the deities though are from Acendency, not birth.
-On a whole, I don't think so. The list of deities who came to become divine via mortal apotheosis is fairly small, in relation to the total number of deities active in Realmspace. The proverbial "90% of deities", we simply don't know the circumstances as to how they came about.
I guess it was like 10% born, 10% acended, 80% unknown.
I can't remember what reference they were in (a novel?), but I remember there was some discussion about them over at CKawhile back.
They didn't appear to be gods - they were something else entirely. I suppose with all this new 4e lore, they may have been primordials.
Now that I think about it your right and that was some sort of a naive comment.
I guess it was like 10% born, 10% acended, 80% unknown.
-Yeah, that's more like it.
There were a group of beings that were mentioned somwhere -somehing like 'Shadow Lords' or some-such - that either preceeded the deities, or were contemporaries of Shar and Selune.
-The Shadevari, yes, featured in the Crypt of the Shadowking and Curse of the Shadowmage novels, with stats in the Villain's Lorebook.
Yes, the Shadevari were the beings I was speaking about when I said: "In some versions of the myth there were beings that existed before them, and in others, they were the only ones in existence."
The Shadevari appeared in the 2E version of the Myth, but in 3rd and now apparently 4th Edition they were given no mention. It is logical to conclude that there are a number of different variations of the myth floating around. Especially based on who is telling it.
Many of the gods, such as Auppenser and Amaunator faded away due to lack of worship. (Although Auppenser was kept alive by Mystra in a deep sleep.)
Where did you find the bit about Mystra? The only lore that I have seen (LEoF) says
Auppenser was gravely weakened by the destruction of Jhaamdath, and his faith simply dwindled into nonexistence over the next few centuries. Of all the ancient gods, however, Auppenser alone still maintains a glimmer of awareness and a handful of devoted worshipers.
And when the Well of Elders is reawakened so to shall he be reawakened, and from him will come balance in the realms. (This last bit is from the prophesies of Tegasta, last High Seer of Jhaamdath, found in a rieldoxia in an ancient Sembian tomb).
I forget exactly where the information came from, but I do remember a discussion about it on these forums roughly a year back.
The reference you're thinking of is from The Grand History of the Realms, in one of the side-blocks of lore if I remember correctly.
Hope that helps.
-Reverse that. Seûne and Shar, in the myths, were the first two deities of Realmspace
So where the hell did AO come from? Just magically became supreame God ruler? How did he rank above them if they were 1st?
And AO created everything didn't he? He is the ultimate being. More than an actual being. Normal Mortals don't even know of him do they?
So if what you say is true, than the statment LK made is irrelivent?
Seûne and Shar, in the myths, were the first two deities of Realmspace
Would that not be a contridiction? AO is the ultimate Diety none to less, yet if Seûne and Shar were the 1st, how are you going to tell me AO created everything?
Some designers back in 2E created AO out of the blue. He/She is not part of Eds original concept of the FR.
The current designers did not like AO even back in 3E and would like to totally Retcon him/her out but will not do so, they will just never mention AO much at all. They will instead "push" Selune and Shar more into the role that Ao had in past editions. Maybe they will explain the reasoning canonly and perhaps they will not.
SO we can say that the sisters were the first, but AO created them.
He is not a deity but some being of order that looks over the planet. So the sisters were thew first deities.
18DELTA
Would that not be a contridiction? AO is the ultimate Diety none to less, yet if Seûne and Shar were the 1st, how are you going to tell me AO created everything?
Ao isn't a deity, so he doesn't count.
About the origin of the unknown deities, it's also said that the first deities of war, murder and all the other ugly things formed from the hostility between Shar and Selune as they clashed with each other after the lighting of the sun (the first sun deity could have been born that very moment but took some time before becoming conscious to manifest himself)
-You noticed that too, and I thought I was going crazy!
18DELTA
Rauric sees and hears all. Plus I am very paranoid. ;)
The reference you're thinking of is from The Grand History of the Realms, in one of the side-blocks of lore if I remember correctly.
Hope that helps.
-Which, mind everyone, comes from a character perspective, and may or may not be the truth.
Ao would work better as a primordial... unless he created them as well.
-Not really. Ao is what Ao is. That's all.
18DELTA
-Ao is Ao. That's all.
Bel
Yeah, but AO was a plot device that got canonized and now can't be gotten rid of. I'm gonna houserule the spellplague cut realmspace off from AO. J/K
Bel
-Rich Baker has mentioned that Ao will get 0 air time from now on. And, the part about Shar and Selûne creating the universe that Toril exists in is certainly the first step in ignoring and "forgetting" Ao. Which is regrettable.
-Rich Baker has mentioned that Ao will get 0 air time from now on. And, the part about Shar and Selûne creating the universe that Toril exists in is certainly the first step in ignoring and "forgetting" Ao. Which is regrettable.
LK is right, AO is AO and the edition changes never mattered when dealing with him/her.
I am happy that they decided to let Selune and Shar create everything. That is always how I saw it. I am glad Ao is being written out in the end. Another change I am happy with I guess.:D
And, the part about Shar and Selûne creating the universe that Toril exists in is certainly the first step in ignoring and "forgetting" Ao. Which is regrettable.
Where does it say that they created the universe? AFAIK the story is just the same which has been told in other sources before: Shar and Selune were the first entities to come to conscious within realmspace, yet realmspace itself was already there (just mostly empty)
Also the two don't seem to have created the world of Abeir-Toril, which was already their (just barren and lifeless) and some time after them developed it's own consciousness as Chauntea
So they were the firsts to build castles in the sandbox, but someone still had to build the sandbox for them
Where does it say that they created the universe?
-The recent Shar and her church excerpt. In 4e, the story has been retconned and revised such that Shar and Selûne "created the universe that Toril" is in.
Cannonly speaking Ao has been trying to erase his memory from the minds of mortals since the Time of Troubles. The new myth simply reflects what Ao has been attempting to do since that time.
For me personally I am happy to forget.
Bel
:P
I don't think a myth can be retconned. It's just a myth and there are no doubt many versions floating around.
-It's already been retconned, from 2e to 3e.
Forget who?:P
Bel
-I think we were talking about that Drow deity of Undeath whose name escapes me at the moment...?
18DELTA ;)
Who the hell am I, again?
Interesting is that the elemental princes are now primordials along with Bazim-Gorag, Dendur, Kezef and Borem of the Boiling Mud, the last three being three of the seven Lost Gods.
Bel
Lord Ao created the universe that holds the world of Abeir-Toril. After he created the universe, it was just an empty, gray, and misty void, a timeless place of nothingness that existed before light and darkness became two separate things. Out of this shadowy realm came the two beautiful twin goddesses Selûne and Shar, goddess of light and goddess of darkness.
The Shadevari would have been in the "misty void," if they're still a part of canon (and there's been no word one way or another since the Shadowking novels, so they technically still are).
One can't talk about divine families without thinking of that mass of cobwebby dysfunction that is (well, was) the Dark Seldarine. Poor Selevtarm. He never stood a chance, what with crazy Grandma Dearest, uninvolved/enemy Grampy Corellon, deadbeat Dad Vhaeraun, and hippie black sheep (how appropriate) Eilisteraee. Now Grandma Dearest has bumped the rest of them off.
Betaextinction
Who the hell is that?
Damn... I was hoping you at least would know...
that was odd