Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 evildungeonmaster Sep 26, 2012 11:48:12	So it's been a while since I spent anytime in Faerun, and obviously some changes have taken place.  I am designing a storyline that involves a lich making ceremony, and thought it would be interesting to use a long abandoned temple desecrated by worshippers of the god of the dead for the ceremony but I was surprised to see that the current God of the Dead despises and hunts down any and all undead.  So that got me digging for who currently holds sway over the undead, and I came to the conclusion that there simply isn't such a deity anymore.  Right now I`m playing with the idea of using Szass Tam in the plot, having him either gaining or seeking the power to rule over the undead, but I`m terribly at sea when it comes to the current lore, or even the process that such would follow to achieve that goal.   I did a little reading about Tam`s pact with Bhaal, and it seems like the 1000 year timeframe may be coming to an end.   Would Tam be able to decieve and defeat Bhaal in order to take his power and could those extend to the rule of the undead?  Am I totally missing something, and there IS in fact a deity that currently rules the undead?  Thoughts?
#2 mvincent Sep 26, 2012 12:24:27	who currently holds sway over the undead Orcus. I`m playing with the idea of using Szass Tam That could work. Note that he technically serves Bane... so Bane might be suitable if a genuine God is needed.
#3 evildungeonmaster Sep 26, 2012 13:19:36	^^ Bane, my mistake.  Would it be Orcus that someone appeals to as a would-be lich?    In the wiki article about him, it's referenced that he hates the Undead.
#4 LordManshoon Sep 26, 2012 17:16:30	So it's been a while since I spent anytime in Faerun, and obviously some changes have taken place.  I am designing a storyline that involves a lich making ceremony, and thought it would be interesting to use a long abandoned temple desecrated by worshippers of the god of the dead for the ceremony but I was surprised to see that the current God of the Dead despises and hunts down any and all undead. Heh. That's one of the things I love about Kelemvor - he's a proper god of death, in that he holds no love for the perversions of nature that are undead. Would Tam be able to decieve and defeat Bhaal in order to take his power and could those extend to the rule of the undead?  Am I totally missing something, and there IS in fact a deity that currently rules the undead? If the Haunted Lands trilogy is any indication, Szass Tam is perfectly capable of deceiving Bane. Whether he can defeat him is another story altogether, but if it works in your campaign, go for it. Szass Tam is always looking for capable undead to bolster his ranks, and to that end, he would lend his services in creating a lich who would benefit not only his control of Thay, but his schemes for the lands beyond his borders. If not Szass Tam himself, then perhaps a lesser general - maybe a necromancer, vampire, or another lich. As for deities - Typically, intelligent undead like liches avoid cooperation with Orcus and his cult, because in Orcus's eyes, all undead, be they sapient or otherwise, are just pawns to be used in his grander schemes. The same can be said for most deities, actually - they and their respective churches will only act in their best interests. I guess it ultimately depends on what purpose the lich will serve, and what the lich's own goals are. Bane would help create a lich who could serve as a tyrant in his name, coercing the general populace and forcing them to bend the knee to the Black Hand. Orcus would use a lich as a weapon, striking down whoever stood in his cult's way. Shar might help create a lich if that lich would ultimately go on to spread sorrow and destruction amongst people and settlements, or Talona might create a lich to serve as a plaguebearer, contaminating the land with fell magic and relentless blight.
#5 evildungeonmaster Sep 26, 2012 17:23:23	^^ That's a very helpful answer.  I hadn't really considered using different gods that would help create a lich for their own goals.  Good ideas.   Since the NPC that is trying to become a lich is a warlock currently, and has the Infernal Pact, I guess I could just use some previously unnamed entity as the source of his pact, and have the temple decorated as such.
#6 mvincent Sep 27, 2012 13:27:09	the NPC that is trying to become a lich is a warlock currently, and has the Infernal Pact fwiw: Asmodeus could certainly be a suitable option.
#7 evildungeonmaster Sep 27, 2012 14:23:40	I can't believe I somehow missed Asmodeus when I was reading the deity descriptions.  *facepalm* Do you think it makes sense to set it up that the original temple was designed to worship an existing God like Amauntor or Chauntea, or should I simply leave it as a long dead and forgotten good deity?   Something about using a good deity's temple as a site for arcane, diabolical rituals just appeals to my sense of evil, but it's not too important, just additional flavor.
#8 LordManshoon Sep 27, 2012 14:40:56	Do you think it makes sense to set it up that the original temple was designed to worship an existing God like Amauntor or Chauntea, or should I simply leave it as a long dead and forgotten good deity?  Something about using a good deity's temple as a site for arcane, diabolical rituals just appeals to my sense of evil, but it's not too important, just additional flavor.  There's nothing that spits in the face of goodly priests everywhere like having a temple to your god desecrated and re-consecrated in honor of a foul, fiendish deity. By using a desecrated temple, you could establish a potential ally for the PCs in the form of that good deity's mortal followers (the ones closest to the temple, at least). If word gets out that the temple was taken over, clerics loyal to Amaunator or what-have-you might seek to forge an alliance with the PCs, which could add to the storyline. Having the aid of a church at the party's disposal could later prove useful in confronting the bad guys. That's just one opportunity presented by taking that route, though. There's no downside to using an abandoned shrine to a long-forgotten god, either.
#9 mvincent Sep 27, 2012 14:40:59	Do you think it makes sense to set it up that the original temple was designed to worship an existing God like Amauntor or Chauntea Yup. Though Amaunator is fairly 'new'. It might make more sense if the temple was designed to worship Amaunator's earlier incarnation as Lathander.
#10 evildungeonmaster Sep 27, 2012 16:40:09	More great points, guys!  Before I even thought to look at the deitys, I had designed the encounter to include a magic item in the shape of a sun being used to open the hidden door that accesses the temple.  I think Lathander or Amaunator is probably perfect, and I love the idea of having a good church available for the player to find support in.  Am I mistaken in believing that Amaunator is the new name of Lathander, who was originally known as Amaunator?  Would there be churches that still worship Lathander, or "Original" Amaunator?  Would all the churches have switched to Lathander and then back (I have no clue as to the time frames involved here, but assume we are talking about thousands of years)?
#11 LordManshoon Sep 27, 2012 16:54:37	Am I mistaken in believing that Amaunator is the new name of Lathander, who was originally known as Amaunator? Yeah, Lathander is essentially the more youthful and artistic aspect of Amaunator, more creative yet also more naive. By extension, Amaunator is the more mature and vigilant aspect of Lathander, wiser but clinging to tradition/convention. They are essentially two sides of the same coin. Would there be churches that still worship Lathander, or "Original" Amaunator?  Would all the churches have switched to Lathander and then back (I have no clue as to the time frames involved here, but assume we are talking about thousands of years)? There are bound to be plenty who continue to worship Amaunator as Lathander, much like the elves continue to honor Sune as Hanali Celanil. They might be branded as heretical by Amaunator's more conservative clergy, but they exist, all the same. Modern-day Lathanderites' relations with those who worship Amaunator in the here-and-now would vary from place-to-place, maybe even depending on the individual.
#12 evildungeonmaster Sep 27, 2012 17:15:10	This is great.  What I had originally intended to use as a little flavor text is now something I want to develop into a full fledged plotline (I'm imagining a tiny sect of worshippers that have passed from generation to generation since the original Amaunator existed and now is rejoicing that their god has returned in its "True" form.  The discovery of this long lost temple would no doubt cause a bit of a stir amongst their members, and since I've located this near the entry well in undermountain, could have an interesting effect in the case of pilgrims and city politics).
#13 mvincent Sep 28, 2012 13:13:09	I'm imagining a tiny sect of worshippers that have passed from generation to generation since the original Amaunator existed and now is rejoicing that their god has returned in its "True" form. Brotherhood of the Glorious Sun. Power of Faerun p.58-61 has more details.
#14 The_Silversword Sep 28, 2012 17:56:43	Shar is the only Realms deity that currently offers her priests the Undeath Domain
#15 evildungeonmaster Sep 28, 2012 18:19:07	Shar is the only Realms deity that currently offers her priests the Undeath Domain Sorry to be so dense, but what does that mean?
#16 The_Silversword Sep 28, 2012 18:21:33	It means in 4e Realms, it appears that Shar has managed to snag the Undeath portfolio.
#17 KhanSemus Sep 29, 2012 16:43:54	Just a quick jump to the OP: The former ruler of liches (though not a powerful god) was Velsharoon. His body is just sitting in Aglarond (under guard), waiting for Szass Tam to come absorb power from it.  No clue how Shar snagged Undeath, though her power is in the home of the undead, the Shadowfell.
#18 The_Silversword Sep 30, 2012 3:06:35	Im not sure how Shar ended up with Undeath either, I just know that in 4e Shar was the only one who gave access to the Undeath domain, or maybe it was Undead, Id have too look it up. There might be a good story behind Shar getting the Undeath portfolio, of course its also possible that when they (the designers) were splitting up the domains they were like screw it lets just give it to Shar.
#19 LordManshoon Sep 30, 2012 11:04:33	Im not sure how Shar ended up with Undeath either, I just know that in 4e Shar was the only one who gave access to the Undeath domain, or maybe it was Undead, Id have too look it up. There might be a good story behind Shar getting the Undeath portfolio, of course its also possible that when they (the designers) were splitting up the domains they were like screw it lets just give it to Shar.  I'm pretty sure it was this. Their job was to fit as many domains as possible (essentially, all of them) into the Realms. Someone needed Undeath, and Shar was the best fit, so she got it. In everything I've read, I have yet to see Shar make any more use of undead than the next evil deity.
#20 tweak_the_whacked Oct 02, 2012 20:52:03	Well, they are more or less using Shar as the realms equivalent of the Raven Queen from points of light(realm's the shadowfell, has matronage over the shadar-kai), but where as the Raven Queen is unaligned, Shar is evil, and the realms already has a god of death in Kelemvor. So instead of having Shar take over Kelemvor's job, they have her take over Orcus', as he was never suposed to have full dominion over the undead, anyway.