Have the non human deities been made generic and folded into an all encompassing pantheon?
Or are the surviving nonhuman deities still patron deities of their respective races?
If it is the first rather than the second, I really wish this had been clearer in the text.
I don't see how a newbie is going to puzzle any of this out. I played in the Realms for years before retiring and it confuses me what they did to the gods in 4E.
Can any forum regulars clear this up? Have you guys asked the developers what they intended?
I know they stated they wanted to shorten the list of deities and eliminate duplications they saw in the portfolios of the gods but even acfepting that I don't understand what they did.
Worship the One God and you'll be cool. It's coming in 5e.
Wohoo the return of Takhisis?
Many of the Demihuman gods turned out to be aspects of Human/mainstream deities. In some cases the deity turned out to be a primordial. The same held true for deities like Talos. Most races still have their main patrons intact as they were.
They thought there were too many gods so they chopped a bunch out.
They pretty much folded them into one pantheon.
Most of the major deities still exist in a similar capacity.
Corellon is the god of fey rather than elves...
Selune is now an ancient god who appeared to different races with different aspects: Selune to humans, Sehanine Moonbow to elves etc.
Sune also appeared to races using different aspects: Sune to humans, and I think Hanali Celanal (sp?) to elves.
Akadi, I think is the primordial of air instead of a goddess. She appeared to the elves as Aeredie Faenya (sp?) I think.
The three, unless I'm mistaken use parts of their essence from time to time to make Angarradh.
Some of the elven pantheon have been reduced in power to exarchs. I'm not sure who is missing.
Gruumsh is the god of savagery instead of merely orcs. In the past he often chose to appear before mortals as Talos (who no longer exists as a separate entity...)
Bhagttru is an exarch and Ilneval is dead or gone...
The list goes on. I think they screwed it up...
Ohh thanks for your reply as it just made me think of something....How could Auril have defeated/killed Aerdrie Faenya and taken the Winged Mother's floating palace (as stated in the web article) if Aerdrie Faenya was Akadi (who is still around)? Hmm better post this as a different thread.
Cheers!
-I find this highly unbelievable, given the extreme and drastic changes to Demihuman deities, and that only 100 years is passing.
-From what I understand, it was assumed that, with all of the chaos from the Spellplague, in the 104 years from 1,375 DR to 1,479 DR (the 3e-4e transitory period), there was so much cultural diffusion that racial pantheons ceased to be. Humans have no problem worshiping Corellon Larethian, and s/he has no problem with having Humans as worshipers. Elves have no problem worshiping Moradin, and he has no problem with having Elves as worshipers. And, so on.
-I find this highly unbelievable, given the extreme and drastic changes to Demihuman deities, and that only 100 years is passing.
Yeah. And now we have the Blackstaff of Waterdeep praying to Auril. She's a "good guy," mind you.
Yeah. And now we have the Blackstaff of Waterdeep praying to Auril. She's a "good guy," mind you.
-I see no reason why this would be out of the ordinary. 'Good' sailors regularly pray to and send offerings to Umberlee, to prevent her wrath on their trips. Waterdeep is situated in a geographical location where blizzards are possible. Stave off the blizzards by sending prayers and offerings to Auril.
Because they weren't. at all.
And if that's what they truly wanted to have happen....that's just plain...well I probably shouldn't finish that sentence...
Okay, I'm overstating my dislike there a bit, but still, I'm not very happy with the portrayal of hin in this edition.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=16929583&postcount=251
Best wishes
Lirdolin
BTW, Wikipedia is your friend. You will get enough info over there, even though it will be more flesh than bones, for obvious (i.e. copyright) reasons.
Each race can use the old names if that's what you want in your campaign. Heck, you could probably make some up around the human names for gods that are close to whatever concept you have in mind if you're not satisfied with the non-human gods that you do find online or elsewhere.
The gods are not human, elvish, etc. after all.
Each race can use the old names if that's what you want in your campaign. Heck, you could probably make some up around the human names for gods that are close to whatever concept you have in mind if you're not satisfied with the non-human gods that you do find online or elsewhere.
A god can have no inherent racial or racial characteristics, can exist only as a sentient but empowering force that may even be formless... but still be interested in and irrevocably tied to one race as expressed through their worshippers.
This, for me, is what has been lost with this "cultural diffusion". [And don't refer to their status in my campaign. I don't have a campaign right now, this is a statement of my opinion about the general point of racial identification of deities.]
A god can have no inherent racial or racial characteristics, can exist only as a sentient but empowering force that may even be formless... but still be interested in and irrevocably tied to one race as expressed through their worshippers.
-Truthfully, what would be the draw for a normal Human- a tailor, let's say- to worship Moradin, the Dwarf-Father? It's silly.
This, for me, is what has been lost with this "cultural diffusion". [And don't refer to their status in my campaign. I don't have a campaign right now, this is a statement of my opinion about the general point of racial identification of deities.]
-I hear you.
"Itinerant as their likenesses in the world, the halfling divinities move from place to place..."
This is in a discussion of the Green Fields domain.
Now, how does thuis use of the phrase halfling divinities fit in at all with the notion that deities don't have racial identities anymore? If that was their intention why would they still use the phrase?
Makes no sense.
I'm beginning to wonder if they even thought about much of this at all before they wrote it.
As far as I'm concerned the racial deities have always been described as being of that race, otherwise too much canon material would have to be thrown out.
chauntea is not and never hs been lawful, but ng, and once upon a time in a gallaxy far far away, in times long gone, and nearly forgotten she had druid followers. which at the time meant must be nuetral as druids could only be such.
and the 2nd part is that yondalla is not and never has been( atleast afaik) never been an agriculture deity.
now for my take on the sune/hanali deal, well Sune always seemed a bit on the Fey side to me even in previous editions, so i can buy that part a bit.
and i can not and never will or even be able to bring myself to accept that selune and sehanine moonbow were the same.
one is the goddess of toril's moon
and the other is the feywild's moon which was a minor aspect of her portfolio and mostly the elven goddess of dreams and mysticism.
bring back sehanine and yondalla
(
IMO the lack of racial divinities only applies to the PoL core setting, not the Realms.
-Were that the case, racial pantheons would still exist in a structured fashion. Being that the designers needed to apparently keep with the Point of Light theme, they began working this concept into the Forgotten Realms, but because of everything that's come before, there is only so much they could have done.
However, since those racial pantheons were only present on a few worlds (e.g. Faerun, Flanaess) and not at all on some other worlds (e.g. Krynn, Eberron), it was actually no big deal to kill off most of those deities, and include the respective leaders of those pantheons in the respective 'main' pantheon of the world.
Actually, it's far more logical that there is only one deity of elves, or one deity of dwarves, and not an entire pantheon of racial deities, which were supposed to be the creators of the respective race and thus should have been present on all worlds were the respective race existed (but they weren't, apparently). And with all those countless worlds were say elves live, the Seldarine and especially Corellon would have been tremendously more powerful than any single-speric deity (but he wasn't, apparently).
Anyway...
Actually, it's far more logical that there is only one deity of elves, or one deity of dwarves, and not an entire pantheon of racial deities...
-I disagree. We, as Humans, have how many deities that people actively worship, or at one point in time, worshiped? It's much more logical for distinct social, ethnic and racial groups to develop their own deities, myths, creation stories, and all of that.
-I disagree. We, as Humans, have how many deities that people actively worship, or at one point in time, worshiped? It's much more logical for distinct social, ethnic and racial groups to develop their own deities, myths, creation stories, and all of that.
Ok, I can see your point. But then there should be one say elven pantheon in Faerun, one in Anchorome, one in Zakhara. Then another one in the Flanaess, and so on. All of them are different deities.
However, that's not the way it is in D&D. Elves and the others are not equals to humans in comparison to dominace, influence, and population. Anything but humans is a minority in D&D. So there is no need of entire racial pantheons, although it would be logical if it were.
Anyway, and one pantheon that is present on all worlds were the respective race exists wouldn't work, because of power continuity.
Ok, I can see your point. But then there should be one say elven pantheon in Faerun, one in Anchorome, one in Zakhara. Then another one in the Flanaess, and so on. All of them are different deities.
However, that's not the way it is in D&D. Elves and the others are not equals to humans in comparison to dominace, influence, and population. Anything but humans is a minority in D&D. So there is no need of entire racial pantheons, although it would be logical if it were.
Anyway, and one pantheon that is present on all worlds were the respective race exists wouldn't work, because of power continuity.
-Pantheons change from place to place, however. All Elves in published D&D settings (excusing Eberron, I believe) count Corellon Larethian and Sehanine Moonbow as their creators. This traces back to a common exodus from a divine genesis. Best way to explain this, if you aren't getting the terminology, would be watching related languages and cultures develop. They share similarities, because, if you go back far enough, they had the same origin.
-In the Forgotten Realms, specifically, there are all sorts of deities that are not found in other settings. Eilistraee, for example. She is a member of the Seldarine (in an informal sense), that is not present in other incarnations of the Seldarine. Vhaeraun is a Drow deity who is only worshiped on Abeir-Tori, and not on other planets. Shevarash, same thing. Likewise, in other settings, you have deities that are not worshiped in Abeir-Toril. Zinzerena, for the Drow, for example. Or Abolal Lorfiril (Race of the Wild). So, it's a two way street.
-In short, there's nothing wrong with the way it was done, in that multiple cultures from multiple places can share a common creation myth, and common deities, all while injecting something unique not found elsewhere.
-Pantheons change from place to place, however. All Elves in published D&D settings (excusing Eberron, I believe) count Corellon Larethian and Sehanine Moonbow as their creators. This traces back to a common exodus from a divine genesis. Best way to explain this, if you aren't getting the terminology, would be watching related languages and cultures develop. They share similarities, because, if you go back far enough, they had the same origin.
And Krynn.
Mystara and the others I'm not sure.
-In short, there's nothing wrong with the way it was done, in that multiple cultures from multiple places can share a common creation myth, and common deities, all while injecting something unique not found elsewhere.
Just want to point out that multiple doesn't necessarily mean all, and I've no problem with multiple.
That said, the elves had a common place of origin, and after countless millenia only a part still stick to the Seldarine, while the rest 'surrendered' to some local deities, who assimilated the aspect of the respective elven deity, just on this respective world of course.
As I said, I can see your point, though this is quite profound, thus rather untypical for 4e.
-In short, there's nothing wrong with the way it was done, in that multiple cultures from multiple places can share a common creation myth, and common deities, all while injecting something unique not found elsewhere.
Another question/theory I throw out, regarding this point of yours.
Why are humans so 'simple', whereas elves and so on are that special? Why can any deity create humans, but only one can create elves? Why should the rules that apply for humans not also apply for elves? That is, one world, many creation myths, many deities. Next world, many creation myths, many (different) deities. And so on...
And Krynn.
Mystara and the others I'm not sure.
-And them, then. I thought there were Elves there, but I don't follow either setting, so I guess I thought wrong.
Just want to point out that multiple doesn't necessarily mean all, and I've no problem with multiple.
-No, as I began demonstrating, no two Seldarines are exactly alike. Certain 'core members' are common in all rotations, but the roster differs from place to place. 'Core members' who would be common would probably be Corellon Larethian, Sehanine Moonbow, and I guess Deep Sashelas.
That said, the elves had a common place of origin, and after countless millenia only a part still stick to the Seldarine, while the rest 'surrendered' to some local deities, who assimilated the aspect of the respective elven deity, just on this respective world of course.
-Right, this is the 4e explanation for things like Sehanine Moonbow, or Aerdie Faenya. Note, though, that I am not arguing against this (though, I dislike those particular examples). I am arguing against the concept that, in 104 years, racial pantheons that clearly existed among Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, Goblinoids, whoever, would "break down" with cultural diffusion. With Humans and Goblinoids, it makes more sense, because of the shorter lifespans, but with Elves, Dwarves and Halflings, it doesn't, because of their prolonged lifespans.
Another question/theory I throw out, regarding this point of yours.
Why are humans so 'simple', whereas elves and so on are that special? Why can any deity create humans, but only one can create elves? Why should the rules that apply for humans not also apply for elves? That is, one world, many creation myths, many deities. Next world, many creation myths, many (different) deities. And so on...
-Humans weren't created by deities. D&D has steered clear of this issue, for obvious reasons. Certain deities lay claim to certain ethnic/racial groups, as protectors, spiritual guiders, whatever (Take Ubtao and the Chultan people, for example, or Uthgar and the northern barbarians), but we don't have a common point in the history of D&D's multiverse in which deity created Humans, when they spread across the multiverse in a massive exodus. Were it the case that there is revealed some deity that created Humans, who then spread out, and are the forebearers of ALL Humans, then what I've been saying would be the case.
-No, as I began demonstrating, no two Seldarines are exactly alike. Certain 'core members' are common in all rotations, but the roster differs from place to place. 'Core members' who would be common would probably be Corellon Larethian, Sehanine Moonbow, and I guess Deep Sashelas.
That I'm well aware of.
I was rather talking about that just because multiple cultures on different worlds share a common creation myth doesn't mean that all cultures do.
-Humans weren't created by deities. D&D has steered clear of this issue, for obvious reasons. Certain deities lay claim to certain ethnic/racial groups, as protectors, spiritual guiders, whatever (Take Ubtao and the Chultan people, for example, or Uthgar and the northern barbarians), but we don't have a common point in the history of D&D's multiverse in which deity created Humans, when they spread across the multiverse in a massive exodus. Were it the case that there is revealed some deity that created Humans, who then spread out, and are the forebearers of ALL Humans, then what I've been saying would be the case.
Yeah, and we all know that the reason why is RL religion.
And before we haven't found a way to properly deal with this precarious topic, it wouldn't make any sense to even begin assuming that it would be logical if there would be X deities for race Y and so on.
I was rather talking about that just because multiple cultures on different worlds share a common creation myth doesn't mean that all cultures do.
-No. As evidenced by the fact that you mentioned, that the Elves of Krynn, or Mystara don't have these views. Most do, however.
Yeah, and we all know that the reason why is RL religion.
-Not religion itself as much as the people who practice said religion(s).
And before we haven't found a way to properly deal with this precarious topic, it wouldn't make any sense to even begin assuming that it would be logical if there would be X deities for race Y and so on.
-Sure it would. Elves, since they are the example we are using, have a clear genesis point. When and where, we don't know, but we know the story- Corellon Larethian and Gruumsh were fighting, Gruumsh cut Corellon and he began bleeding, Corellon cut out Gruumsh's eye, yada, yada, yada. From that blood, all Elves appeared. Or, rather, the progenitors of the Elves, who would, in turn, reproduce, and those offspring would, in turn, reproduce, and continue ad nauseum. Humans, for the alluded reasons, in D&D, don't have a clear genesis point. As such, because this is left misty, we don't have anything to trace back, and connect various cultures across the multiverse.
-No. As evidenced by the fact that you mentioned, that the Elves of Krynn, or Mystara don't have these views. Most do, however.
What no? Let's summarize this.
You said that it's ok that multiple cultures from multiple places share a common creation myth. My answer was that the term multiple cultures doesn't mean that all cultures have the same myths (e.g. Krynn), which is ok, too.
So, did I miss anything, or what?
And you can't claim that most elves have the same creation myth, since we don't know how many there really are. Also, we would have a draw at the moment (Faerun, Flanaess, Eberron (?) - Krynn, Mystara, Dark Sun)
Humans, for the alluded reasons, in D&D, don't have a clear genesis point. As such, because this is left misty, we don't have anything to trace back, and connect various cultures across the multiverse.
Races of Destiny states that the deity Zarus was the first human. Of course, this can't be considered as canon.
What no? Let's summarize this.
You said that it's ok that multiple cultures from multiple places share a common creation myth. My answer was that the term multiple cultures doesn't mean that all cultures have the same myths (e.g. Krynn), which is ok, too.
So, did I miss anything, or what?
-It's okay for multiple cultures from multiple places to have a common set of deities they worship. That's the long and the short of it. You originally said that such a thing is less logical than a single deity per race per place ("Actually, it's far more logical that there is only one deity of elves, or one deity of dwarves, and not an entire pantheon of racial deities..."), which I found fault with.
And you can't claim that most elves have the same creation myth, since we don't know how many there really are. Also, we would have a draw at the moment (Faerun, Flanaess, Eberron (?) - Krynn, Mystara, Dark Sun)
-It's impossible to count the dark figure (the unknown) of a statistic. That said, based on the fact that the 'Core' myth is the aforementioned Corellon-Sehanine-Blood & Tears story, I find it highly more likely that the line is toed, as opposed to ignored. My own setting uses this as the creation myth, so there you go, if you want to tip it. :P
Races of Destiny states that the deity Zarus was the first human. Of course, this can't be considered as canon.
-Don't have that one. That doesn't answer the question of the origin of Humans in D&D however. At least, not with the answer you provided. So, Zarus was the first Human...How was he created?
So, Zarus was the first Human...How was he created?
He wasn't the first human, that was all propaganda BS.;)
-It's okay for multiple cultures from multiple places to have a common set of deities they worship. That's the long and the short of it. You originally said that such a thing is less logical than a single deity per race per place ("Actually, it's far more logical that there is only one deity of elves, or one deity of dwarves, and not an entire pantheon of racial deities..."), which I found fault with.
Hmm, indeed, I said this.
Well, logical was the wrong word, apparently. This statement was in regard to 4e D&D, where humans are predominant and the others are all minorities without their in-depth history and creation myths from previous editions.
However, I think everything worth mentioning was already mentioned here.
-That said, based on the fact that the 'Core' myth is the aforementioned Corellon-Sehanine-Blood & Tears story, I find it highly more likely that the line is toed, as opposed to ignored.
I personally wouldn't use it as a kind of 'default' myth, since I believe that the Seldarine should be worshipped on some worlds (multi-spheric), but definitely not on all worlds.
-So, Zarus was the first Human...How was he created?
By the world itself. Look here for further details.
and your Zarus is no more
viscious god, and to think that i hated that book because its prcs were garbage and all it had in it was that illumiwhatever race.
you just gave me a reason to hate it even more.
Indeed
Pun Pun urinates on your Zarus!!!
and your Zarus is no more
Zarus is built according to some detailed rules, and not according to some arbitrarily and randomly built mess of numbers that is broken as hell and not even intended to be playable.
Come back when you found something properly built.
Hmm, indeed, I said this.
Well, logical was the wrong word, apparently. This statement was in regard to 4e D&D, where humans are predominant and the others are all minorities without their in-depth history and creation myths from previous editions.
However, I think everything worth mentioning was already mentioned here.
-Right. We've covered it all.
I personally wouldn't use it as a kind of 'default' myth, since I believe that the Seldarine should be worshipped on some worlds (multi-spheric), but definitely not on all worlds.
-Well, like it or not, it's been the 'default' myth for some time now, hence why so many Elves from official campaigns, and peoples' private campaigns, and so on worship the Seldarine.
By the world itself. Look here for further details.
-Oh, that's not official. I thought this was something official we were talking about here. :P
-Oh, that's not official. I thought this was something official we were talking about here. :P
The fluff part beginning at 'Long ago, according to legend, Zarus was the first man, created by the world itself.' to 'Zarus appears as an incredibly handsome human male in his prime, suffused with a golden glow....' is from Races of Destiny, so it's official. Just the write-up is fan-made ;)
Hmm, indeed, I said this.
Well, logical was the wrong word, apparently. This statement was in regard to 4e D&D, where humans are predominant and the others are all minorities without their in-depth history and creation myths from previous editions.
However, I think everything worth mentioning was already mentioned here.
Just a nitpick--from what I understand about the 4E "core setting", it was deliberately designed so that humans aren't the dominant race of the planet, like they are in plenty of other settings. I also don't agree that the other races don't have their own creation stories (I've read a few already, such as Melona and Sehanine creating the halflings, who were later "adopted" by Avandra).
I do agree that at this time, details about the various player races are pretty sketchy.
The fluff part beginning at 'Long ago, according to legend, Zarus was the first man, created by the world itself.' to 'Zarus appears as an incredibly handsome human male in his prime, suffused with a golden glow....' is from Races of Destiny, so it's official. Just the write-up is fan-made ;)
Looked to me like whoever wrote that reused bits straight out of the Book of Genesis.
But it did give us the Able Learner feat, which I'm rather fond of... though yeah, it was largely kinda crap. Not that different from the rest of the Races of books really.
didnt that feat show up in one of the FR books before hand??
anyway i liked races of the wild better
-And them, then. I thought there were Elves there, but I don't follow either setting, so I guess I thought wrong.
-No, as I began demonstrating, no two Seldarines are exactly alike. Certain 'core members' are common in all rotations, but the roster differs from place to place. 'Core members' who would be common would probably be Corellon Larethian, Sehanine Moonbow, and I guess Deep Sashelas.
-Right, this is the 4e explanation for things like Sehanine Moonbow, or Aerdie Faenya. Note, though, that I am not arguing against this (though, I dislike those particular examples). I am arguing against the concept that, in 104 years, racial pantheons that clearly existed among Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, Goblinoids, whoever, would "break down" with cultural diffusion. With Humans and Goblinoids, it makes more sense, because of the shorter lifespans, but with Elves, Dwarves and Halflings, it doesn't, because of their prolonged lifespans.
-Humans weren't created by deities. D&D has steered clear of this issue, for obvious reasons. Certain deities lay claim to certain ethnic/racial groups, as protectors, spiritual guiders, whatever (Take Ubtao and the Chultan people, for example, or Uthgar and the northern barbarians), but we don't have a common point in the history of D&D's multiverse in which deity created Humans, when they spread across the multiverse in a massive exodus. Were it the case that there is revealed some deity that created Humans, who then spread out, and are the forebearers of ALL Humans, then what I've been saying would be the case.
I would like to comment on this by saying that it is fairly evident that WOTC was more interested in stream-lining than making the pantheons realistic, as per what would actually have occured. I would also like to stress that these massive changes should have lead to an increase in the power of several dieties who got cut, Loviatar first comes to mind. My players largely think the new pantheon stinks, we are going to keep using the old pantheon, which makes much more sense than the changes, besides a few needed deaths. I encourage anyone who doesn't like the changes to do the same, and speak up. Maybe WOTC will get the point that we prefer logical, rather than easy, solutions.
didnt that feat show up in one of the FR books before hand??
anyway i liked races of the wild better
Could have, but if it did, I wasn't aware of it. Only place I've ever seen it is in RoD, thus far anyway, but I might have missed it.
Eliminating the Halfling pantheon (And their nation) was probably the single most inept move on the part of Wizards ever.
Now, halflings are tall. They're more like two thirdslings. And furthermore, the Spellplague affected TIME AND SPACE ITSELF. They were now ALWAYS THIS WAY.
Try reading those novels about Olive Ruskettle now. They tell you how tall she is! (Either that, or tables are higher off the ground) They didn't just break the game, they broke the novels also!
It practically takes work to not think things through this much.
As for the loss of Yondalla, Avoreen, etc, there's no way that Yondalla could be Chauntea. That's ridiculous. Sheela, maybe, but Yondalla, no.
A hearth god is not an agriculture god. These portfolios have nothing to do with each other. When I read what they did to the demihuman deities in 4th edition, I almost had an embolism. No Seldarine. No Moradinsamman. Everyone is white, human, mostly (With a few notable exceptions), male.
I really feel Wizards eliminated a lot of the racial diversity and struggle to overcome racism that occurred in the previous editions of the Realms, and replaced it with this nebulous kind of bland hypergenetics where your race gives you some abilities and everyone gets along.
Getting rid of the deities of nonhuman races made this easier. Without deities of each specific race, a lot of the things that made these cultures diverse were also simultaneously eliminated. Most medieval cultures and fantasy cultures are based around their religion. When you attend services, what you do, etc, this is how communities are built and designed prior to the modern age.
It's my contention that this is BAD. When you eliminate the uniqueness of the religions of various relations and peoples, the very diversity that makes these races what they are vanishes, along with their culture. Without that special ritual on Highharvestide that only Halflings perform to Yondalla, they really aren't being HALFLINGS anymore.
A different creation myth for each race makes sense. This doesn't.
If it makes you feel any better, the demihuman deities don't seem to have been eliminated in terms of how the people "on the ground" interact with them. The cosmological shifts were probably invisible to most worshippers, and perhaps even the clergy. Witness the way gnome priests of Baravar Cloackshadow and Gond Wonderbringer have been potrayed in the published lore thus far (and as a supporting example for a "human" deity, the priest of Valkur we've seen didn't seem to be effected by his god's place on the totem poll--exarch--in terms of his characterization or his spell casting abilities).
The problem is that the cosmological shift doesn't HAVE to be visible to worshippers, but it does, because it's inherently contradictory. When you walk into a Halfling village, and you see the same ritual the humans use, and the name is the same, suspension of disbelief is broken. And "It was always this way, see how dumb we are" is the most human supremacist, racist, ridiculous thing I've ever seen.
Plus, regardless of how visible to the worshippers it is, it's still visible to US! It doesn't matter how visible it is to the groundpounders, so to speak, because as the "eye in the sky," we all have to read this and either accept it as gospel, change it, or be offended by it. And it really is kind of offensive to have forced religious homogeneity because it's "Too Complicated."
I honestly think there is more to it then the developers wanting to trim dowm the pantheon. I really think they have it out for halflings too.
Halflings pantheon (and other nonhumans) nuked.Luiren, the ONLY halfling nation in the whole darn setting...tactically nuked.
And I won't even go into the humanification of the hin overtime...first they became more like kender and gnomes, now more like humans too.
What part of halflings=hobbits is hard to understand?
1) Religion
2) Military
3) Porn.
These are also the first three things that people write about when they become civilized. (No lie, this is real world research from anthropologists, I'm not making this up)
So without this, all you have is military and porn, with no balancing force on their behavior. So what does this mean?
Religion is how communities are formed. Those rituals of religion are what form and create communities. That ritual of harvesting that everyone attends because there's nothing else to do that day is there because the community is small.
Especially in a points of light style 4th edition world, the anthropological consequences of this would be enormous. Priests would be sent with HUGE armed guard contingents just to inform/control the social behavior and morals of communities.
So what we really have is a situation where there would be continuous and open religious warfare, because religion isn't a binding cultural factor that creates communities under the 4e paradigm.
This concerns me, because without important things like ecology and how societies work, you can't have any sort of community at all.
Let's get back to the hin, and take this argument forward.
The kind of Hin community that exists in FR CANNOT exist without a strong cultural and racial creation myth. It's not possible. The hin are SO strongly tied into local community groups (of hin) that any other form of organization/worship would be considered odd. If you worship Yondalla, and the others worship Yondalla (Except the militia, who worship Arvoreen, and that weird druid who worships Sheela), it is the COMMUNITY itself that is the focus of Worship.
Chauntea is a completely inappropriate god for the hin to Worship. It's going out on a limb and stretching the justification of things.
Furthermore, we can apply the same argument to elves, dwarves, or any other race you might name.
It's really sad when I open up my Rifts books and say to myself "You know, FR used to have better fluff and information than these. Not anymore."
As to the rest, I fail to see why any intelligent species would worship the deities of another species unless they did so under threat of punishment, in which case they would probably continue to worship their own pantheon in secret, or they were raised in the religion of the other species and either don't know or don't care about their racial religion, and would represent something of a social aberration for their species.
And honestly, I doubt they would even remotely accept the idea that Yondalla and Chauntea (ignoring how little sense that makes in the first place) are the same deity, at least not without some extraordinarily compelling proof, and even then, I'm not too sure that they would stick with her even if they did come to accept the idea of it, which I doubt highly. More likely would be massive backslide in relations between humanity and hin, and the viewing of the revelation as at least trickery and deceit to conquer and assimilate the hin, something the hin are all too familiar with when it comes to their human neighbors, considering the depredations of Dambrath towards Luiren, and their experiences in places like the Empires of the Shining Sea.
Beyond all that though, the efforts to simplify the pantheons and consolidate them into something of a super-pantheon by and large reduces many of the unique cultures these races have to simply being humans with different appearances. While probably done with the intention of simplifying the game and making it easier to understand, it also manages to make those cultures utterly illogical and completely flies in the face of what we know about the evolution of culture and religion. True, much of that comes from a human perspective in the first place, but we can't even get humans to agree on a single concept of religion, even among a relatively monotheistic society, as evidenced by the multitude of denominations within the so-called dominant religion of the Western World... that an essentially polytheistic society could find harmony in pantheistic consolidation among several different species stretches the bounds of reason to the point of breaking in my opinion.
People worship deities that look like themselves. To understand this, there's a short story you should read called "The Boy Who Painted Christ Black."
It's terrific, but it really undermines the WOTC fantasy ideal that we've been seeing from 4e.
And seeing gods as transcending race in a world with minimal education (Points of Light), is utterly ridiculous. No one even thought of this concept until the mid-19th century.
When Cortez descended upon the Aztec empire, he was worshipped as a god, because people didn't understand what he was.
But THAT's a points of light world. Only people who were born in urban areas should really have the ability to read. Now, in the Realms, most people can read, but the point is, WHO is teaching them to read and what are they reading?
Most people probably can't afford more than two or three books, which would be these.
1) The religious text of your religion would be the FIRST one. Absolutely. See 1700's America for what I mean about this.
2) A book about your job. How to do it, what tools you need, etc.
3) If you have a third book, it would be some sort of book about codes of behavior, or how to live your daily life. A farmer's almanac, or a book about manners and how to treat other people, etc.
Only sages, Candlekeep, temples of knowledge gods, and rich adventurers and nobles would have libraries, and Ed pretty much says as much.
This isn't even an arguemnet here, just my opinion on the subject. I am not big on making the whole world I run be a mirror of Earth though, but again that is my way of running a game world.
Just offering that opinion thing. ;)
The point is, from what we know, that Halfling, that human, and that orc would not be worshipping the same deities. Religion is tremendously influenced by geography and lifestyle of a given culture, and even the old version was stretching things a bit by those standards. I could accept that, largely because a lot of those superfluous deities were included, so it could be made to make sense a bit more with relatively little effort, but this new stuff... just defies logic to my way of looking at things.
While I'm sure it absolutely will not bother some, such as Rauric for instance, for those of us who it does bother, its just another straw to break the camels back with, so to speak. No one is right or wrong about the issue, as its largely one of preference, but coming from the perspective of having had it, and then losing it, I'd much rather have it.
Personally, I would have been more in favor of an approach that said these are the deities of Faerun, if you don't like one or many of them, feel free to ignore their presence, while in the regional descriptions mentioning that there are x number of temples, and y number of shrines, here's who we think should go here, but do whatever you want with it. Would have made transitioning previous lore much easier, while still giving the setting as much flexibility and customization potential as possible. More how I would do it anyway. ;)
What they did over in Eberron was have different cultures all over the world worship the same deities but each culture put their own spin on the religion.
The drow of Xendrick worship a scorpian god that is more than likely a god called the Mockery on another continent. There is a religion called the Sovereign Host and the people of one continent believe they are standard gods and another group worships the Ascended Host who believes that the gods are dragons that reached godhood to look after mortals/nondragons.
I like this concept of one god but different views on what that god looks like.
And yes, I know not everyone uses that sort of logic in their games, but I would have liked to have a setting where it still applied... which I had prior to 4e. But I'm not bitter... I'm saving far too much money to be bitter about it. :D
I guess what I am saying is that not everyone uses logic when creating game worlds...
-This, we already know.
Anyway to me there is nothing illogical with there only being less gods than we always thought there were. The races that worshipped their gods for millennia were "bamboozled" I guess since they were really just worshipping an aspect of an even more powerful god. I am sure Correlon didn't care because this gave him some protection against his enemies and he probably soon came to see those "psuedo-elf" gods as true brothers and sisters.
People seem to like how Faerun Mirrors Earth in some ways well Christianity has a ton of religions with their own little belief systems but in the end the focus is all about the "One True God" and his message. One god, but many different people all over the world see him/her and worship him/her in a totally different way. The same goes with Orthodox and Reformed Jews and probably with the Muslims as well and people who still think there is a Sun god in some far off place. Pretend that we live in RPG world and the concept of a few gods masquerading as multiple deities isn't so illogical. ;)
Anyway I guess to follow up on that (with that one snark aside) is that not everyone who plays this game is a sociology/psychology/physics/archeology major. Many people who play don't really think too deeply into all of those things when they play in a Role Playing Game. They just want to ecape the real world for a few hours and have fun. Things that are not logical are usually ignored because nobody cares at that point, they are just happy to be with friends, drinking beer or soda, laughing, killing things (in game of course ;) ) and forgetting that they have to go to work the next day so they can pay their mortgage.
-In an offshoot of the much-used Oberoni, just because it doesn't have to make sense doesn't mean that it shouldn't make sense.
-I understand your sentiment, but I disagree with the validity of it, when applied to the designing stuff. The equivalent of this, but using it in a different situation, would be a home maker who is making someone's home saying, "I don't like mundane architecture, so I am going to build a home that does not conform to the traditional methods!" Sure, the builder is within his/her rights to build whatever it is that he/she wants, but what the person paying him/her wants should be taken into account. Likewise, with the designing, what fans of the setting want should be taken into account. Gotta go, more later.
The same goes with Orthodox and Reformed Jews...
-Who believe each other to be apikorsim, or 'Non-Jews', 'Wrong-Jews', or, to get to the heart of the matter, doing it wrong, and as a result, a religion other than Jewish.
As to the idea of worshipping aspects, I can see that within the context of a species, such as a human community in Turmish worshipping a local deity of agriculture and really having it be an aspect of Chauntea. I don't actually have a problem with that in the slightest. But across species lines, the difficulties set in for me, especially considering that they went with the human pantheon as the 'correct' one, when the pantheons of the dwarves and elves easily predate human civilization. It just makes no sense whatsoever, that a bunch of humans using a giraffe tail-bone for farming and barely possessing a culture would have a much clearer view of divinity than a civilized race reaching or descending from its peak. Its just an absurd idea to me, that positively reeks of humanocentricity...
Honestly, I can see where that wouldn't bother some, but to me, its very nearly a deal-breaker. The folks who write this stuff are paid to maintain at least a semblance of internal consistency and logic, and much of what I've read for 4e just tosses the idea of both pretty much out the window when it comes to fairly major details of how a society comes together, which were fairly well (though far from perfectly) thought out and considered, in favor of a streamlined simplicity for its own sake, as best I can tell anyway. It's their job to pay attention to this kind of stuff... what I give them money as a company to do, so I don't have to take the time to plot this all out myself. It just strikes me as pretty sloppy and well, just reckless considering most of it was there in the first place.
What in our world gods do exist and even though you think you are polytheistic in truth you are just worshipping an aspect of a bigger god? Everyone thinks that "their" god and "their" way is the right way when it comes to religion. It happens on Earth so why can't it happen on Faerun. What if there are gods here on Earth and they are just using us to get "god juice" from our faith by adapting to the ways that all the different people think? It is creepy stuff.
I probably should drop referencing Earth religion though. Like they say Religion, Unions and Politics should never be brought up in friendly conversations because it always turns out badly.
I probably should drop referencing Earth religion though. Like they say Religion, Unions and Politics should never be brought up in friendly conversations because it always turns out badly.
-As long as religion, politics, and other "hot button" issues are brought up in a tasteful, relevant manner, and are used to argue/disprove a point, in a tasteful manner, it's allowable by CoC.
-A WizO isn't going to moderate/delete your post by saying something akin to, "Angherradh is a triune deity just like the Catholic Father-Son-Holy Spirit are a triune deity", don't worry.
It just makes no sense whatsoever, that a bunch of humans using a giraffe tail-bone for farming...
-Can you do that?
Yeah, it could be a case of larger gods representing various portfolios, and anyone worshipping something to do with a given portfolio is really just worshipping that 'over-deity' (though not in an Ao sense of that word), no matter what they choose to refer to it as. But, from my point of view, even if that is the case, its largely irrelevant from a player perspective, since they're characters would logically still refer to the deity by their preferred racial or regional name for it, and would almost certainly differentiate between some other races or regions version, and consider them seperate, and probably lesser, deities than their own. So, from a view from the ground, telling us that they're all really the same deity is of no value, since it almost certainly wouldn't matter in practice within the Realms themselves.
For instance, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a human who would acknowledge that Gruumsh and Talos could even possibly be the same deity... while they might enjoy the effects of orcs against civilization, I don't think many would want to be one. There's a certain arrogance humanity has, particularly when it adopts a destructive mindset, that only they can truly appreciate. While I would think they could find it believable that Talos was masquerading as Gruumsh, I don't think the inverse of that would be accepted by most... and I doubt the orcs would care much for either idea to be honest.
But, as far as personal preference goes, I prefer the distinct and seperate pantheons for each race, as it makes more sense to me. While I could accept the idea of them all being an aspect of greater, more conceptual deities, I would prefer that they were indeed ALL aspects of that, with the greater deity behind them remaining unknowable and unapproachable. My main problem with that though is that much of the older lore would get very odd in that context, particularly the ToT, which really only makes sense if they do remain seperate and distinct pantheons from what we know of it, at least in my opinion.
@LK, supposedly you can. Some archaelogical evidence points towards them being used as farming tools, though I don't recall if anything concrete ever came of it. Very difficult to be absolutely certain of much in that field of endeavor though.
@LK, supposedly you can. Some archaelogical evidence points towards them being used as farming tools, though I don't recall if anything concrete ever came of it. Very difficult to be absolutely certain of much in that field of endeavor though.
-Hm, go figure.
What if there are gods here on Earth and they are just using us to get "god juice" from our faith by adapting to the ways that all the different people think? It is creepy stuff.
It's not frightening (or even creepy) at all, because there is no evidence to suggest that such is the case.
I probably should drop referencing Earth religion though. Like they say Religion, Unions and Politics should never be brought up in friendly conversations because it always turns out badly.
It doesn't have to turn out badly, but we need to be careful.
When Rifts makes more sense than 4e FR, I kind of feel violated. That takes serious work to mess up things that much.
But the thing is, when I read 4e FR, I just sit there and think "Wow, this was actually written by people who don't understand anything about cultural development."
Really, if a plague like this happened, wizards would be targeted by angry mobs, anything that cast spells would be mistaken for being a wizard, and the art would die a swift and horrible death in the massive peasant witchhunts and chaos that ensued.
The other problem is, it's not really all that different from Palladium's "The Coming of the Rifts." Not to mention that the 4e rules liberally stole from the Palladium system for resolving mechanics like death and spell effects.
FR Religion was kind of like the sacred cow that kept the Realms functioning on a cultural keel. And radically tampering with it created a colossal mess.
The thing I hate most is that once a character becomes a first level cleric, he can do whatever he wants, there's no further divine investiture and his god has nothing to do with the process.
Deism does not exist in the Forgotten Realms, but thanks to the core rules, it does now.
The thought (and work) that previous developers had put into the areas of culture and religion has largely been ripped away in favor of a bare-bones treatment that really doesn't tell us that much of interest.
It looks to me like the developers didn't really stop and think about the ramifications (spelling?) of either a) what they were changing and removing or b) what they were introducing. Your point about the societal impact of the Spellplague is a good example of the latter.
Some of these writers seem like pretty smart guys, many of them with years of gaming experience. I'm assuming at least some of the points raised in this and other threads entered their minds. So why? Was it change dictated from above? And why do it so ineptly?
I can sorta understand the advent of 4E, espeically when you factor in the corporate mandate for new edition to drive sales and link better to miniature sales. I don't like it but i see the point.
The majority of the things done to the realms make much less sense to me, the changes to the pantheon included. I just can't wrap my brain around this.
I don't like the changes, how they were implemented or the gross disrespect 4E realms shows to longtime fans.
I just don't understand.
I am the other side of what they were hoping for. I am part of the audience that just needs a location to run a game with some fluff and ideas so I can spin it into something of my own. I think they are hoping I am the majority of consumers out there. :D
(PS I am a fan since 87)
It's just not that fun being in the minority group that has been marginalized and written off.
People seem to like how Faerun Mirrors Earth in some ways well Christianity has a ton of religions with their own little belief systems but in the end the focus is all about the "One True God" and his message. One god, but many different people all over the world see him/her and worship him/her in a totally different way. The same goes with Orthodox and Reformed Jews and probably with the Muslims as well and people who still think there is a Sun god in some far off place. Pretend that we live in RPG world and the concept of a few gods masquerading as multiple deities isn't so illogical. ;)
Hey, careful about dropping bombshells like this, ESPECIALLY when your parallel is crap.
and LK, while YMMV I've known many Orthodox and Reform (and especially Conservative) Jews, and none of us thought the others were non-Jews (although a bit of "doing it wrong" and "**** retentive" did get tossed around).
The problem with rauric's parallel is that it makes false assumptions.
In the RW religions the doctrinal arguments between the Judeo/Christian faiths comes down to the Christians saying "and then He gave us MORE information." For Judeo/Muslim it's the entire "Issac versus Ishmael" thing. Which I just won't go into.
But all three share certain Core Texts of Doctrine. This is NOT the case for the offending Faerunian deities
Nowhere are we told that Selune revealed herself to the elven nations and said "my name is Sehanine (which is elven for Selune) and I'm going to give you this book/scroll/holy tablet of my divine will," and then proceed (or even be said to have done so) to the humans and say "my name is Selune and I just gave the elves this stuff. I'm going to give you the same stuff plus extra."Rather, Selune went to everybody on the entire planet at once and said "this is my doctrine." Sehannine went to all the elves at once and said "this is MY doctrine." And they were inherently and fundamentally different. The only similarities were "and we both use the Moon as our symbol" (and since Judaism, Christianity and Islam all use different holy symbols anyway this is still not a good analogy).
[edit]A better analogy, imo, would be if it was revealed that both Obama and McCain were aspects of Ralph Nader, Sarah Palin had siphoned off Hillary Clinton's power, Cheney was really nothing more than an aspect of Putin (something I wouldn't be too shocked at, myself), and President Bush was really just a reincarnation of Thomas Jefferson.
But the Faerun thing still makes less sense because the only deity out of all the changes with the Trickery domain was Sehanine... and she used more in a CIA way then a "haha, fooled you" way. Whereas we all know that politicians are mostly created from Elemental Deceit.
and LK, while YMMV I've known many Orthodox and Reform (and especially Conservative) Jews, and none of us thought the others were non-Jews (although a bit of "doing it wrong" and "**** retentive" did get tossed around).
[Begins theology lesson]
-To be a Jew, one must, asides for being born and all of that, follow the commandments of G-d in the Torah. There's 613 of them. The Hasidic and Orthodox branches, they do their best to follow all of them. The Conservative and Reform branches, they, traditionally, follow whichever ones suit them the best. So, an insult from one branch to another would be 'Apikorsim', meaning that, by not following all the commandments of G-d, they aren't being proper Jews.
[Ends theology lesson]
-You know, it's too bad. For as good as the 2e books on the deities were, and all of the information that's been written afterwards, it's too bad that more wasn't written on churches, and followings. The most there was, I guess, was on Lathander, with the different heresies going on in his church.
[Begins theology lesson]
-To be a Jew, one must, asides for being born and all of that, follow the commandments of G-d in the Torah. There's 613 of them. The Hasidic and Orthodox branches, they do their best to follow all of them. The Conservative and Reform branches, they, traditionally, follow whichever ones suit them the best. So, an insult from one branch to another would be 'Apikorsim', meaning that, by not following all the commandments of G-d, they aren't being proper Jews.
[Ends theology lesson]
First of all, there's a lot more than 613 different commandments in the Torah, the 613 thing comes from a midrash. Although, I do suppose it depends on how you count the rules themselves (sort of how you can arrive at the conclusion that over a thousand plagues were visited on the Egyptians when they drowned)
And to be a good Jew one must do their best to follow all of the commandments. Since each person is different and each situation is different, adjudicating on who is trying hard enough is kind of stupid.
The views of some extremists should never be taken as the views of the whole group.
First of all, there's a lot more than 613 different commandments in the Torah, the 613 thing comes from a midrash.
...
And to be a good Jew one must do their best to follow all of the commandments. Since each person is different and each situation is different, adjudicating on who is trying hard enough is kind of stupid.
-The Torah contains 613 specific and recognized commandments that, over the course of the different books. 365 of them, which are denotes as 'Positive', and 286 'Negative'. I actually might have gotten that backwards. I don't honestly remember. I think it was 365 positive, because there are 365 days in the solar year, and solar references light, and light is good...I'll look it up, hold on...
-OK, no, I was wrong. There's 286 positive, and 365 negative.
-Following these are what, traditionally, set the Jews apart from everyone else, asides for actually bloodlines. Non-Jews (Heh, I was about to write N'Tel'Jews! :rofl
are not expected to follow these rules, and are only expected to follow the Noahdic laws. These are basic things, like don't murder, don't steal, don't be sexually promiscuous, things like this. Jews are expected to follow the 613 commandments (technically, less, since a bunch of them are not possible in today's day and age). Thus, by not following these rules, one is theoretically becoming "less Jewish", hence the term. I make very little effort to follow these rules, and, have my own convoluted beliefs, so, were I to be called an 'Apikoras', I would take no offense.Indeed... but, at last Prayers from the Faithful went into a tiny bit about some of the doings of various churches, and enabled at least a few inferrances to be made from it.
-Mm, don't have that one.
I've a feeling that would never have flown with TSR or WotC though to be honest, too many (perceived) potential landmines to be stepped on I think.
-Why do you think that? Like I said, WotC had a few different Lathanderite heresies. Why would it have been a bad idea, in the minds of WotC (or TSR) to include more? I can't remember any..."fallout" over Lathander's heresies. Maybe people arguing which ones they likes, and which ones they didn't, but...Nothing on a religious-intellectual level.
-The Torah contains 613 specific and recognized commandments that, over the course of the different books. 365 of them, which are denotes as 'Positive', and 286 'Negative'. I actually might have gotten that backwards. I don't honestly remember. I think it was 365 positive, because there are 365 days in the solar year, and solar references light, and light is good...I'll look it up, hold on...
-OK, no, I was wrong. There's 286 positive, and 365 negative.
-Following these are what, traditionally, set the Jews apart from everyone else, asides for actually bloodlines. Non-Jews (Heh, I was about to write N'Tel'Jews! :rofl
I do take offense, as would many people I know
and I think the word you're looking for is goyim or gentile (although N'Tel'Jew is pretty funny :rofl
-Mm, don't have that one.
Go out and get a pdf of it then. Very good for lore bits about the various churches, particularly about some of their history and practices. Even mentions a few events I haven't seen mentioned in many other sources.
-Why do you think that? Like I said, WotC had a few different Lathanderite heresies. Why would it have been a bad idea, in the minds of WotC (or TSR) to include more? I can't remember any..."fallout" over Lathander's heresies. Maybe people arguing which ones they likes, and which ones they didn't, but...Nothing on a religious-intellectual level.
I wasn't actually referring to the heresies actually, but rather going into details on churches and the like. I was thinking more of the rise in fundamentalism, i.e. the Moral Majority, during TSR's 2e days, and the general flak D&D received from those types, and definitely got the feeling they were doing their best not to antagonize them, which I suspect a book detailing what amounted to pagan practices would be seen as doing. While the late eighties and early to mid nineties were a somewhat more tolerant climate, there was still a sense of caution, it seemed to me anyway, in what they were putting out so as not to offend anyone's sensibilities. Just seems that there's a certain hesitation in the Realms these days to do their best to make D&D more palatable and appealing (or at least less offensive) to religious types, which I can see the appeal of, but which I question the wisdom of considering the outright hostility they've shown towards the hobby.
But I'll admit that I have major issues with those sorts though, so I tend to be strongly biased against them, so take these thoughts with a grain of salt if you're of a mind to, as I have a difficult time being objective with them.
...which I suspect a book detailing what amounted to pagan practices would be seen as doing.
-Ah, I see. Gotcha.
Who cares what the tenets of a fictional religion are? Are people afraid that real world people are going to convert to the worship of Siamorphe?
Come on, people! No one in the real world is THAT stupid! Granted, in ten thousand years, aliens will come upon the smoking ruin of our civilization and figure out that we predicted our own demise in the spellplague but were unable to stop it, but that's neither here nor there.
Come on, people! No one in the real world is THAT stupid! Granted, in ten thousand years, aliens will come upon the smoking ruin of our civilization and figure out that we predicted our own demise in the spellplague but were unable to stop it, but that's neither here nor there.
Jedi as a religion. 'nuff said.
Just wonderful...now our reality has now impacted on this imaginary setting.
I don't really want to get involved in this discussion, but I have to. I really feel like the new FR screwed the pooch on deities.
Eliminating the Halfling pantheon (And their nation) was probably the single most inept move on the part of Wizards ever.
Now, halflings are tall. They're more like two thirdslings. And furthermore, the Spellplague affected TIME AND SPACE ITSELF. They were now ALWAYS THIS WAY.
Try reading those novels about Olive Ruskettle now. They tell you how tall she is! (Either that, or tables are higher off the ground) They didn't just break the game, they broke the novels also!
It practically takes work to not think things through this much.
As for the loss of Yondalla, Avoreen, etc, there's no way that Yondalla could be Chauntea. That's ridiculous. Sheela, maybe, but Yondalla, no.
A hearth god is not an agriculture god. These portfolios have nothing to do with each other. When I read what they did to the demihuman deities in 4th edition, I almost had an embolism. No Seldarine. No Moradinsamman. Everyone is white, human, mostly (With a few notable exceptions), male.
I really feel Wizards eliminated a lot of the racial diversity and struggle to overcome racism that occurred in the previous editions of the Realms, and replaced it with this nebulous kind of bland hypergenetics where your race gives you some abilities and everyone gets along.
Getting rid of the deities of nonhuman races made this easier. Without deities of each specific race, a lot of the things that made these cultures diverse were also simultaneously eliminated. Most medieval cultures and fantasy cultures are based around their religion. When you attend services, what you do, etc, this is how communities are built and designed prior to the modern age.
It's my contention that this is BAD. When you eliminate the uniqueness of the religions of various relations and peoples, the very diversity that makes these races what they are vanishes, along with their culture. Without that special ritual on Highharvestide that only Halflings perform to Yondalla, they really aren't being HALFLINGS anymore.
A different creation myth for each race makes sense. This doesn't.
Are you guys sure Jedi is officially considered a real religion anywhere?
-Well, it's not considered an organized and state-recognized religion, anyway.
-But, that's neither here nor there.
which is neither here or there, both at once and neither at the same time
Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.
-Well, it's not considered an organized and state-recognized religion, anyway.
As for the topic of what religions are legitimate? Well, anyone who knows my thoughts on the subject can attest to the fact that I'm pretty much impartial towards every religion. I can't help but be impartial due to my own beliefs, or the lack thereof.
-Was Stigger hating on the Elves again? (Conveniently bringing this back on topic.)