and then...ORCUS WILL EAT YOUR SOUL!
Demons on the other hand sound like they've been infected with a wicked case of Chaotic Stupid. Rawr, I am chaos and I am Cranky!!! I take them less seriously as a threat if they're all going to be busy trying to eat people/destroy things then if they were trying to break through and do something vaguely productive like forge permanent gates to the abyss.
As for the character himself, he's angry and takes it out on every Orcus follower he can find.
What is Orcus?
-Some punk, I don't know, that was slain by some no-name deity...
My current game is just starting in 4E Faerun. I've had the spell plague release this demon. Once he found that his love had been murdered by mortals he's sworn revenge on all who were even related to those heroes of the past. He's promised power and wealth to any who will serve him here on the physical plane. He's spent the last 100 years since the spell plague building his power again for this one act of revenge. No one involved in her death will be allowed to survive.
The plan is for the players to face him at the end if they get that far. Currently, they are dealing with a minion, or a minion, or a minion type thing. That is far down the chain of command is the servant carrying out the wishes of his master and he doesn't know why. That is if you go up the chain far enough there is always just one guy. The Demon in my game is one guy. I know that it's hard to think of Demon's in love, but that was their great crime so long ago and the repercussions of that will come again.
I've talked to the players and they are aware this ties into that old campaign and were happy to revisit the old storyline. Some are also very curious about what happened to their old characters. I'm trying to get them to come up with that let them revisit those 3.5 guys and think about what they would do after they retired from adventuring. The players aren't playing direct descendants. They're new heroes being woven into an old story.
Anyways, that's what I'm planning to do with demons in my game. I'll probably use some devils as well. The crime of love is not overlooked easily by the forces of evil.
After him, Gargauth was the most popular worshiped deity amongst Demons but all of them had major cults. The difference between Demon worship and Evil Gods was hard at times but I liked to state...
"No rationale deity would support Demon Worship and the Realms tends to react with 'meh' to evil gods worship while getting out the holy water and swords when confronted with demon worship---even amongst Eldath's worshipers."
I've always had Demon Worship be a large part of my Realms. I've stated that Orcus has as many worshipers as some deities in the Forgotten Realms, even though he technically channels his energy from Velsharoon (and now probably gets it from Ghaundaur)
After him, Gargauth was the most popular worshiped deity amongst Demons but all of them had major cults. The difference between Demon worship and Evil Gods was hard at times but I liked to state...
"No rationale deity would support Demon Worship and the Realms tends to react with 'meh' to evil gods worship while getting out the holy water and swords when confronted with demon worship---even amongst Eldath's worshipers."
See I could actually understand worship of some evil gods. Bane I could see someone finding his means of doing things to be worthwhile, "I'd rather be feared than respected." Others like Velsharoon I felt someone had to hate life to find the undead appealing and would not be tolerated. I agree that Demon/Devil worship though was beyond the pale as it were and would not be tolerated by the populace. The gods at least each had a purpose in the flow of life. Cyric, Bane, Loviatar, and Talona all had some sort of purpose in the overall scheme of life. Not good things, but a purpose not to be denied. Demons and Devils though did not.
After him, Gargauth was the most popular worshiped deity amongst Demons but all of them had major cults. The difference between Demon worship and Evil Gods was hard at times but I liked to state...
You mean '...Gargauth was the most popular worshiped deity amongst devils...', don't you? As Gargauth and demons don't get along well, you know.
I mean, come on, - Orcus / Orcs - it just sorta makes sense there would be some sort of connection. I also like tying the Goblinoids to demon-worship.
Demons (and Devils) thread
That is blasphemy, it is so undignified to put us into this thread with these brutes. :embarrass
Never had real devils in a FR Campaign, only little imps as counselors of wizards (like the one, who told them of 4Ed). But we started once a game in the planes, and it should have gone to hell, but then our DM got some trouble at work and so we never had the time to finish it.I have it where Gruumsh is just another alias Orcus operates under (or vice-versa, if you prefer).
I mean, come on, - Orcus / Orcs - it just sorta makes sense there would be some sort of connection. I also like tying the Goblinoids to demon-worship.
The goblins and hobgoblins have a demonic master of their own. As for Orcs and Orcus, Orcus has always been heavy into the undead, and has never cared for Orcs or the like. This would be the same as having Mystra having mysteries (secrets) in her portfolio, and Helm being the god of armorsmiths.
-In my own campaign (which isn't Forgotten Realms, mind you, so), I had a PC Paladin who left the campaign become captured by Goblins, and abandon his deity, in exchange for a Demon (Eltab) freeing him. He came back as a Blackguard. When he attacked the PCs finally, a critical by the party Samurai cut off his arm. He escaped, and had his arm replaced with a Demon graft. The PCs killed him, and burned his body, but I'm planning on having him return as a Demon, Eltab having taken his soul, and giving it "new" life once more, to carry out his insane-driven revenge against the PCs.
You could throw in some spectre abilities (or what ever ghost is powered by vengence) to help fit some flavor. It could be one of the reason's Eltab saw fit to grant the damned soul with a new lease on semilife.
I offered a short and silly adventure a while back to interest the Paladin of Sune, though he didn't follow up on it. (PCs vote for adventure options.)
A lonely farmer of Beregost had revealed his intended bride to the town - a red-haired beauty with an impressive set of... red feathered wings. She was an Erinyes cut off from her unit after being betrayed at Dragonspear Castle, the site of a new devil incursion (possibly a Malconvoker was to blame). She was hunted by paladins across country, until the farmer found her and looked after her, mistaking her at first for angel.
So then the PCs, in particular the Sunite, would have to fend off aggressive paladins, devils, local folk, an erinyes in a gingham dress, and try to work out if true love could exist between a human and a literal she-devil who sees it as a mutual protection agreement, and takes marriage vows and prenups very seriously. And try to organise a wedding where the bride can't get inside a church.
Didn't happen though.
Lore-wise, I see the southern Sword Coast area as the site of strong devil-interest, what with the invasions out of Dragonspear Castle, the Knights Of The Shield in service to Gargauth and based out of Baldur's Gate, and the strong history of conjuration magic in the area - the mages Uldoon (who raised fiends against the elves), Hilather/Halaster, Ulcaster's School, and nowadays Thalantyr.
In my game, I had a hidden settlement in the far north (beyond Icewind Dale) threatened by ''Norcs or Iorcs" (Northern Orcs or Ice Orcs) who worshiped a frost-based devil baron. I can't recall if I ever named the devil (can't find my notes). The players never got that far before the game halted due to real life. When it resumed many many months later, someone else wanted to DM.
In an older game, I had Iyachtu Xvim rise to prominence as a far eastern iron-handed, daisho bearing deity of legalism, Machiavellian-style leadership, and divine mandate to rule. He had samurai-like devils working as the generals of his mortal organization and the royalty of mysterious dark empire, where he is the state religion and legal system, had diabolical lineage. One of these devil generals went to Faerun tracking down the heirs of a rebel lineage and former rulers of a nation gobbled up by the big bad evil empire. One of the PCs, who had Kara-Turan heritage, was one of those heirs.
In my home setting, I have a prominent knightly order called the Greensteel Legion who have devil patronage. They operate closer to LN, but the leadership is LE and have a pretty good idea their ultimate benefactors are devils. Some revel in the power, others want to get closer to their diabolical sponsors, others just want to use the support and power to bring order to the regions, doubtlessly being thoroughly corrupted in the process.
It could be one of the reason's Eltab saw fit to grant the damned soul with a new lease on semilife.
-That's why Eltab granted him his freedom when captured- the PC-gone-NPC's thirst for revenge on those who felt were the reason for his problems. That he had a Demonic Graft, I envision, demonstrates that he already sold part of his soul to a Demon (or had his soul "infected"), and as such, would come back as a Demon in the service of Eltab.
Yugoloths are cooler. See the storyhour links in my .sig for evidence.
-This is true.
...and came back from the dead as some undead demon guru...
... to mess up his babbling and end up in the dead book again. Only to be revived by his lovers who also happened to be 4E designers and being elevated to be cover-boy for the Dungeons & Dragons Monster Manual.
Immortal due to lobbyism.
Still haven't got the slightest clue why this conundrum of a being got so much love and attention ... as there are so many fiend lords about who happen to be far more interesting than the goat-head.
Yugoloths are cooler.[/IMG]
Hell, yeah!
Wait, that doesn't sound right...
In the FRCG, it states that because Asmodeus is a true god, 'his worshippers are not necessarily required to conduct vile rituals to channel divine power.' So what exactly do cultists of the arch-devils other than Asmodeus need to do in order to channel divine power and can cultists of demons do the same? Is Wizards coming out with a dark-side book anytime soon to cover any of these questions? Am I traveling too far afield or asking too many questions? If so, then sorry, I have a bad habit of that.
Well, the Fiend Folio fiend PrC Fiend of Blasphemy had the ability to "sponsor a worshipper", i.e. allow someone to become a cleric of his/her/its demon or devil lord - up to 12th level, including domains et al (though not all fiend lords are listed with somesuch, as yet). Alternatively, you can simply become a cleric of a fiend lord - though the books are not entirely conclusive about this - by taking a feat corresponding with your planar lord - as given in the Book of Vile Darkness, the Fiendish Codices I & II as well as the Players Guide to Faerûn and Champions of Ruin. That would be Disciple of Darkness (devil), Thrall to Demon and Scion of Sorrow (yugoloth). I seem to remember that only CoR says that these are must-haves to gain class levels as a cleric. BTW, the same (with corresponding feats) goes for good/neutral entities, as listed in the Book of Exalted Deeds, like Queen Morwel.
The archdevils could be argued to be Exarchs of Asmodeus, and therefore the power actually comes from him.
Hopefully not.
Since all exarchs we know (so far) are elite monsters, it would be a dire disadvantage in comparison to the demon lords, who are all solo monsters.
However, here's one of the first attempts to stat out an archdevil.
Hopefully not.
Since all exarchs we know (so far) are elite monsters, it would be a dire disadvantage in comparison to the demon lords, who are all solo monsters.
However, here's one of the first attempts to stat out an archdevil.
Exarch are the High end divine servants and are mainly demi-gods (at least in FR), Hoar, Jergal, Malar, etc. So most are more than a match for a Demon lord.
A few may be lower, but most of those are just jumped up angels.
Have they published any Exarchs yet? I haven't seen an official write-up yet, so I can't be sure of the above.
Exarch are the High end divine servants and are mainly demi-gods (at least in FR), Hoar, Jergal, Malar, etc. So most are more than a match for a Demon lord.
No. Doesn't matter if those guys were Demigods or even Lesser Deities in 3e. Now they are just exarchs. As Fzoul is. He is lvl 28 elite. Doresain (Orcus' guy) lvl 27 elite. Nezrebe (Yeenoghu) lvl 25 elite.
So exarchs (or call them demigods) are servants not only to deities, but also to demon lords and archdevils. And those guy in turn are extremely powerful, but not as powerful as the deities are.
No. Doesn't matter if those guys were Demigods or even Lesser Deities in 3e. Now they are just exarchs. As Fzoul is. He is lvl 28 elite. Doresain (Orcus' guy) lvl 27 elite. Nezrebe (Yeenoghu) lvl 25 elite.
So exarchs (or call them demigods) are servants not only to deities, but also to demon lords and archdevils. And those guy in turn are extremely powerful, but not as powerful as the deities are.
You appear to be right, A. because Archdevils have there own listing in the CG, and B. The Demigod Epic Destiny says you can choose to be an Exarch until you achieve your destiny. Which implies that Exarchs are a step below Demigods. That's gonna hurt the fans of those gods even more, that they don't even rank as demigods...
That's gonna hurt the fans of those gods even more, that they don't even rank as demigods...
Jep. :P
Anyway, Kain and U_K came up with a temporary 'power comparison' between the various monsters types (minion, standard, elite, solo). Here, for anyone who's interested in.
So that is, that Orcus (lvl 33 solo) would be lvl 38 elite and Yeenoghu (lvl 28 solo) would be lvl 33 elite. Conclusion, a few of the lesser demon lords and (archdevils perhaps not except Bel but) some dukes of hell will be as powerful as the most powerful exarchs.
Jep. :P
Anyway, Kain and U_K came up with a temporary 'power comparison' between the various monsters types (minion, standard, elite, solo). Here, for anyone who's interested in.
So that is, that Orcus (lvl 33 solo) would be lvl 38 elite and Yeenoghu (lvl 28 solo) would be lvl 33 elite. Conclusion, a few of the lesser demon lords and (archdevils perhaps not except Bel but) some dukes of hell will be as powerful as the most powerful exarchs.
As if anyone but a handful of powergamers would care ...
As if anyone but a handful of powergamers would care ...
Well, the older the edition you play the nerdier you have to be :P
Exarch are the High end divine servants and are mainly demi-gods (at least in FR), Hoar, Jergal, Malar, etc. So most are more than a match for a Demon lord.
And this is one point where I have to only shake my head with the direction that 4e is going with regards to the interaction between archfiends and deities. I miss yugoloths living in the fossilized, carved spine of a dead god; the Lords of the 9 forcibly exiling greater gods to other planes, etc.
Big monsters to fight now. Yay... :raincloud
And this is one point where I have to only shake my head with the direction that 4e is going with regards to the interaction between archfiends and deities.
-You are involved with the Pathfinder setting, correct? I'll take it you won't be going in this direction, with that?
-You are involved with the Pathfinder setting, correct? I'll take it you won't be going in this direction, with that?
I'm playing in someone else's sandbox there. In Golarion's cosmology, for the most part, gods are a step above archfiends etc. But to mortals the difference might not be more than academic depending on the circumstances. Some archfiends are also deities as well -Lamashtu and Asmodeus- though in the former's case, her chief rival Pazuzu isn't exactly hurting in their conflict despite not having divinity.
In mainline D&D, the yugoloths were the oldest of the fiends and even predated gods and the existance of mortals. In Golarion's cosmology, the daemons are actually the youngest fiends and have a warped but undeniable relationship with mortals and the concept of death.
My personal preferences on certain things don't preclude me from exploring other directions. I do recall one instance over on Enworld of one member of the WotC design team seemingly unaware of gods ever being less powerful in any instance to planar lords in previous D&D lore - which strikes me as rather unfortunate to say the least. Sad to arbitrarily throw out continuity, or not be aware of it in the first place.
-Just, you know, wondering.
I also like ambiguity in that sort of thing. To a random mortal who might encounter either of them, Szuriel the Angel of Devestation (Archdaemon of War) might be as powerful as Norgorber the god of murder etc. And to be fair, regardless of power, one of them is intimately involved with the mortal sphere while the other not as much, or at least not in the same manner or on the same sphere of concerns. There's plenty of room with equivalent but different when it comes to gods and archfiends. In theory archfiends and demigods have stats, while anything more won't.
I'll be starting up a Throne of Bloodstone campaign tonight, and if the PCs head for Yeenoghu's realm I'll show it to them. It looks a lot better without the text all over it. If they're lucky, I won't need to show them the picture of Angry Demogorgon. :D1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA95OfxVxBk
2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0Vg082mqKc
Enjoy! It's actually pretty entertaining.
Excellent choice of art for the first post.
Regarding Yeenoghu.
Check out one of the online issues of Dragon #364. There's a Demonomicon of Iggwilv article about Yeenoghu. Moreover, Jason Engle's pic of Yeenoghu is even better than the pic of Demogorgon.
-I have always enjoyed the concept that there exist extraplanar entities- Archdevils, Demonlords, Slaadi, Primus- that are not deities, and yet, have relative power on par with deities. Having Asmodeus a deity, in my opinion, is a step back, as it lessens some of that ambiguity, and reinforces that notion that, "If something is X powerful, it needs to be a deity".
My thoughts exactly.
People seem to forget that those D&D deities are far away from omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent (except Ao in his sphere of influence, of course), so why should cosmic entities, who can be as well a thousand times older than the deities and who are the true rulers of the planes, be less powerful than the deities, many of whom are ascended mortals? Actually, I don't understand 3e's - and it seems 4e's too - policy here.
I have Athar-like view in this matter
from the other thread: archdevils (and similar planar beings) are more powerful than most gods, god is a term that depends on local religion and local manifestation of portfolios, e.g. Baalzephon is the minister of supply in Baator, on the world of Aerdy she is known as Baalzi, the goddess of wealth, in Faerun hardly anyone has heard of her.
The idea that a god from some tiny planet/continent potentially can end the Blood War that goes on in countless infinities is ridiculous.
The idea that a god from some tiny planet/continent potentially can end the Blood War that goes on in countless infinities is ridiculous.
Well, actually, a deity can't do this, as we have seen in Elminster in Hell. The infinite numbers of fiends will eventually overwhelm any deity.
Anyway, thus I like Dicefreaks' approach to it all the more.
Which is?
That cosmic entities (lords of the nine, demon princes, etc.) are on par with deities in power. That they have a cosmic rank which is comparable to divine rank. That they gain power from worship, but aren't dependent on it, an so on.
For more information, check out The Gates of Hell and Dicefreaks' new power rules.
I got a powerhungry tiefling PC who needs to know its place in the pecking order amongst the devils. This will hopefully make me able to put some fear back into his current form.
Does an imp regard itself higher or lower in the fiendish hierarchy? This PC tricked one (a familiar for a female HalfOgre sorceres) and killed it before it could get more allies.
Does an imp regard itself higher or lower in the fiendish hierarchy? This PC tricked one (a familiar for a female HalfOgre sorceres) and killed it before it could get more allies.
I would say devils regard themselves always as superior to any other being, except more powerful devils, of course. And because a tiefling is tainted with some 'mortal weakness', I would say higher.
So the imp is in it only for himself, trying to reach the next form by fiendish promotion.
Oh when one kills a an imp familiar it merely gets banished, right? How long before it can come back for some vengeance?
I think he wont know what happened when he gets hit by a devil assassins sent by Mephistopheles for screwing with the influence he wanted to have in the region.
-You know who's a Demon Lord that I like, that I wish had more exposure in the Forgotten Realms? Zuggtmoy.
I like her too! Besides, she rules over mushrooms.
I like her too! Besides, she rules over mushrooms.
-Right. A great name, an interesting "background", and a cool image.