Type of Demon:
Location:
Source(s):
Amassyra the Tricoil
Marilith
Slain 1,366 DR
Hellgate Keep
Argolcheir
Unique
Imprisoned
The Abyss
"Well of Souls", DUNGEON Magazine; "Rogue Stones and Gemjumping" DRAGON Magazine
Belshazu
Glabrezu
Slain
War of the Spider Queen
Bizmatec
Glaberezu
Presumably in the Abyss
Silent Blade, Passage to Dawn
Chare'en
Balor
Imprisoned ?
The Glass Prison
Charsultketh (AKA Helanna Darkstorm)
Unknown
The South
Lands Of Intrigue
The Copper Demon of Troos
Unique
Imprisoned within the Acorn of Wo Mai
The Hordelands
Eltab
Unique
Last seen in the Citadel of Conjurers, Impiltur
The Crimson Gold
Errtu
Balor
Presumably the Abyss
The Crystal Shard, Passage to Dawn
Gothmenes
Glabrezu
Presumed Defeated
Pools of Darkness (Video Game)
Graz'zt
Unique
Azzagrat, The Argent Palace
For Duty & Deity
Grintharke
Balor
Slain 1,264 DR
Hellgate Keep
Haeshkarr
Unknown
Last seen in the Abyss (Demonweb Pits)
Evermeet: Island of Elves
Kalistes
Marilith
Presumed Defeated
Pools of Darkness (Video Game)
Khurgroth
Ghour
The Ice Spires
Magic of Faerûn (Web Enhancement)
Lung Jua
Unique
Within The Dragon Claw
Kara-Tur: The Eastern Realms
Orcus
Unique
The Abyss (Thanatos, layer 113)
The Throne of Bloodstone
Mizferac
Glabrezu
Presumably the Abyss
Servant of the Shard
Morbaat
Vrock
Unknown
The Paladins
Mulvassyss the Sceptered
Marilith
Slain 1,368 DR
Hellgate Keep
Pazuzu
Unique
The Abyss (Pazunia, Layer 1)
The Grand History of the Realms
Phalse
Unique
Defeated on the Positive Energy Plane, and likely banished back to the Abyss
Hall of Heroes, Azure Bonds
The Queen Abiding
Unknown
Beneath Dun-Tharos
Lady of Poison
Rejik
Vrock
Unknown
The Paladins
Sess'innek
Unique
The Abyss (The Phantom Plane, Layer 7)
Serpent Kingdoms
Shaakat
Vrock
Unknown
The Paladins
Ssaarn of the Five Hands
Marilith
Slain 1,367 DR
Hellgate Keep
Stentka Taran
Marilith
Presumably still in Beshaba's Divine Realm
Tymora's Luck
Tanetal
Glabrezu
Presumed Defeated
Pools of Darkness (Video Game)
Tsagoth
Blood Fiend
Last seen as a thrall of Szass Tam
Unclean, Undead, Unholy
Vakuul
Chasme
The Abyss
Resurrection
Wendonai
Balor
The Abyss; The Demonweb Pits
Lost Empires of Faerun, Storm of the Dead, Ascendancy of the Last
Yeenoghu
Unique
The Abyss (The Seeping Woods, Layer 442)
The Grand History of the Realms
Yxunomei
Unknown
Icewind Dale
Zerevimeel
Nalfeshnee
The Abyss
Resurrection
[Blood Fiend]
Was last a thrall in the service of Szass Tam, in Thay.
The Haunted Lands trilogy
#Location unknown, presumably his layer of the Abyss
#The Crystal Shard (Icewind Dale trilogy) and Passage to Dawn (Legacy of the Drow)
#Chare'en - Balor
#defeated, imprisoned
#The Glass Prison
#Wendonai - Balor lord
#The Abyss
#Lost Empires of Faerun, Lady Penitent Series
#Aliisza - Alu-fiend
#House of the Triad
#Hellgate Keep, The Gossamer Plain
#Jeggred Baenre - Draegloth
#Menzoberranzan
#Insurrection
#Belshazu - Glabrezu
#Dead (Father of Jeggred Baenre)
#War of the Spider Queen series
#Mizferac - Glabrezu
#banished, unbanished, presumably the Abyss
#Servant of the Shard
#Yxunomei - Marilith
#unknown
#Icewind Dale
#Graz'zt, The Dark Prince - Former Archdevil, now Demon Lord
#Azzagrat, The Argent Palace
#For Duty & Deity
#Shaakat, Rejik, and Morbaat - Vrocks
#unknown
#The Paladins (Book 2, Double Diamond Triangle series)
Grazz't makes an appearance in Realms of the Elves, seducing a female elf to his service roundabout 1373/4 I'd guess.
Methinks a erinnyes is mentioned in Lords of Darkness as being the right hand of some Iron Throne chap, another is working in Zhentil Keep, methinks.
Orcus played a part in the 'recent' history of Damara (Cold Lands region really).
Abyss
Resurrection
Vakuul (Chasme)
Abyss
Resurrection
Bizmatec (Glabrezu)
Abyss
Siege of Darkness
If anyone cares to look there a few more Rat Demons named in Annihalation on the ship with the troup. My books gone MIA for the moment, when I find it I will post them ASAP.
The Abyss, I don't know what layer
Worshipped by puddings, oozes, slimes and some aboleth
FRCS 2e
Charsultketh, aka Helanna Darkstorm (Marilith)
Member of the Knights Of The Shield
Lands Of Intrigue
Presumably in the Abyss by Errtus side
Silent Blade, Passage to Dawn
Stentka Taran(Marilith,Beshaba's general)
Presumably still in Beshaba's realm
Tymora's Luck
Lolth
Deity
Abyss, 66th layer, the Demonweb Pits
Various
Orcus
Unique
Abyss, 113th layer, Thanatos
The Throne of Bloodstone
Pazrael (A.k.a. Pazuzu)
Unique
Abyss, 1st layer, Pazunia (dominates the skies above nearly all layers)
The Grand History of the Realms
Sess'innek
Unique
Abyss, 7th layer, the Phantom Plane
Serpent Kingdoms
Yeenoghu
Unique
Abyss, 422nd layer, the Seeping Woods
The Grand History of the Realms
A few of the more prominent ones.
Lolth
Deity
Abyss, 66th layer, the Demonweb Pits
Various
Lolth is no demon. In FR lore she was a deity, was turned into a demon by her loving husband for a time and reclaimed godhood soon after again. In her true form, she is a deity with the looks of a "drow". Demihuman Deities, Evermeet et al.
Lolth is no demon. In FR lore she was a deity, was turned into a demon by her loving husband for a time and reclaimed godhood soon after again. In her true form, she is a deity with the looks of a "drow". Demihuman Deities, Evermeet et al.
Yep, and not just in FR either. Within Great Wheel / D&D lore overall she started out as a deity in precisely the same way the FR lore first described.
#Graz'zt, The Dark Prince - Former Archdevil, now Demon Lord
#Azzagrat, The Argent Palace
#For Duty & Deity
He was a former archdevil only in 4e core. Everywhere else, including FR, he was a child of Pale Night (who was herself one of the first Obyriths in the Abyss).
Lolth is no demon. In FR lore she was a deity, was turned into a demon by her loving husband for a time and reclaimed godhood soon after again. In her true form, she is a deity with the looks of a "drow". Demihuman Deities, Evermeet et al.
Yep, and not just in FR either. Within Great Wheel / D&D lore overall she started out as a deity in precisely the same way the FR lore first described.
Right, but now she is both...
Right, but now she is both...
Unless something in 4e has stated otherwise (and being that it's a different cosmology altogether I don't particularly care), the last published source to address the notion of Lolth's nature (the last print issue of Dragon) had her as a deity rather than a demon. Not that I know anything about that bit at all. ;)
-Lolth is a deity, hence me not listing her, as opposed to the other Demons who were mentioned, that are listed.
From you:
Asmodeus
Unique
The Nine Hells (Nessus)
Depths of Madness
He is also a deity, yet he is also listed as a devil. Seems to me you have a double standard on outer planes evils.
From you:
Asmodeus
Unique
The Nine Hells (Nessus)
Depths of Madness
He is also a deity, yet he is also listed as a devil. Seems to me you have a double standard on outer planes evils.
Only Asmodeus in 4e, and he began as a fiend and subsequently embraced divinity. By their nature, fiends can ultimately embrace divine power and become both fiends and deities. Things that start out as deities in the first place cannot become fiends if they didn't start out as one in the first place.
That's the big difference between 4e Asmodeus and Lolth, or Orcus and Lolth, or Demogorgon and Lolth, etc.
Only Asmodeus in 4e, and he began as a fiend and subsequently embraced divinity. By their nature, fiends can ultimately embrace divine power and become both fiends and deities. Things that start out as deities in the first place cannot become fiends if they didn't start out as one in the first place.
That's the big difference between 4e Asmodeus and Lolth, or Orcus and Lolth, or Demogorgon and Lolth, etc.
She was turned into a demon before 4e. She had been striped her divinity and worked to get it back. She was never striped of being a demon.
She was turned into a demon before 4e. She had been striped her divinity and worked to get it back. She was never striped of being a demon.
Stripped of her divinity yes, but she wasn't actually a fiend. She wasn't ever an actual demon for it to be stripped of her at any point later when she managed to regain her actual divine rank.
Trust me on this one dude.
Stripped of her divinity yes, but she wasn't actually a fiend. She wasn't ever an actual demon for it to be stripped of her at any point later when she managed to regain her actual divine rank.
Trust me on this one dude.
So when the canoncal book said Corellon turned her into a tanar'ri, that magicly never happened?
Found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolth
A 3.5 source, seeing as you seem to disregard the current edition.
The banishment of Lolth
According to the myths of the surface elves, Lolth was once an elven goddess of weavers and destiny known as Megwandir or Araushnee, dwelling with the other gods of the Seldarine in the plane of Arborea, where her worshippers produced the best silk in the multiverse. After trying to usurp the throne of Corellon Larethian, she was transformed into a demon and cast into the Abyss. There, she slowly regained her lost divinity by corrupting the dark elves.
and, from here: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Lolth
edit History
The symbol of Lolth, during the Era of Upheaval.Lolth was formerly Araushnee, elven goddess of destiny, artisans and dark elves. She was the lover of Corellon and had him completely smitten by her grace and beauty but she grew power-hungry and a sense of never-before seen greed and cruelty entered into her mind. She began by aiding Corellon's enemies. In a fight with his nemesis Gruumsh, Araushnee aided the orc god and Corellon had to flee.[citation needed] She then sent her new ally Malar to hunt her weakened lover but through sheer skill of arms Corellon, with the help of Sehanine Moonbow, managed to defeat the Beastlord.
Corellon still had no idea that his beautiful consort was behind the attacks but Sehanine Moonbow had found out the truth after discovering that Araushnee had started an affair with Fenmarel Mestarine in an effort to make him aid her in an upcoming rebellion. Although at first entranced by her advances he eventually spurned her. Sehanine confronted Araushnee and was imprisoned as a result.[citation needed] With her subtle plans failed, she instead organized an attack on the entire Seldarine with her "Anti-Seldarine" consisting of Vhaeraun, Malar, Ghaunadaur, Gruumsh, Auril, and a host of other gods of goblinoids, orcs, giants, and kobolds, as well as Eilistraee, who was only an unwitting participant in her schemes. Sehanine escaped from her imprisonment and warned Corellon of the impending attack. Despite their force of numbers, the anti-Seldarine were defeated. While her allies fled, Araushnee directly confronted her former lover but then Sehanine, Hanali Celanil and Aerdrie Faenya came to the rescue, merging their powers together to become a single deity, Angharradh. Araushnee was defeated and cast into the Abyss along with both of her children (despite the fact that Corellon knew Eilistraee had been tricked). Araushnee's banishment also involved Corellon turning her into a bloated spider demon so that he could not be persuaded to reconsider his decision due to her beauty.
Araushnee took the name Lolth and turned the 66th layer of the Abyss into her new home. Without another home Vhaeraun, Eilistraee and Ghaunadaur took up small residences there, though Vhaeraun and Eilistraee rarely visited them, preferring to wander in the Plane of Shadow and Arvandor respectively. Ghaunadaur took the opportunity of living in the same realm as Lolth to announce his love for her but Lolth prized physical beauty, an attribute Ghaunadaur did not have and rejected his advances. The Drow demi-power Kiaransalee created a tower of bones in the realm and was thusly subjugated by Lolth's will into becoming her reluctant vassal. Also, Lolth learned of the demon prince Zanassu who claimed divine dominion over spiders. Considering her new body, she thought it was her sole right to own such a portfolio and angrily tricked Selvetarm into attacking the demon prince, killing him. She gained a divine portfolio and a new consort. She used her regained divinity to turn the 66th layer into the Demonweb Pits, morphing it into a giant funnel-shaped web to fit her spidery appearance.
Some time afterwards the moon elf Kethryllia Amarillis intruded into the demonweb, reminding Lolth of a way to regain more of her divinity by having the surface elves worship her once more. She began corrupting the surface elves, especially the dark-skinned and warlike Illythiri of whom she used to be the sole patron. It was her actions during the second Crown War that ended up causing the Illythiri to turn to darkness when she sent the balor lord Wendonai and other demonic servants to offer corrupting power to the dark elves. Just before the Illythiri were turned into drow they had begun openly worshiping Lolth and, over 11,000 years later, she still holds dominion over them.
I guess it is a mistake that has been around since EC wrote Evermeet, hmm?
So when the canoncal book said Corellon turned her into a tanar'ri, that magicly never happened?
*eyebrow* Like the old adage of knives in a gun fight, block quoting wiki to me over something won't fly in most cases.
The actual line you're probably thinking of was part of the elven legend of the event, wherein Corellon "names her Tanar'ri". Stripping her of divinity and transforming her into something more akin to the fiends she was already dealing with is a subtle distinction perhaps from Lolth actually being a tanar'ri, but it's an important one. By her and their definition of what deities (even stripped of most of their original power) and fiends are, she wasn't an actual fiend.
I could quote you a canon source that says as much.
Edit: Also, be mindful that 'canon' is all editions.
...uhh... then you have my permission to do so...
Edit: Also, be mindful that 'canon' is all editions.
Take a peek at Lolth's entry in Dragon 359. Of course, I wrote it.
-- George Krashos
I'll look up that article, but question; is it on the website of paper?
The GHotR also has her as the 'Demon-Goddess'...
I'll look up that article, but question; is it on the website of paper?
Which is a title. She carries a few of those, like Demon Queen of the Abyss, Spider Queen, Weaver of Chaos ...
I'll look up that article, but question; is it on the website of paper?
It was the magazine in print form, not just website.
Argolcheir - demonlord. Most recently in the "Well of Souls" DUNGEON magazine adventure by Eric Boyd (he was an FR 'easter egg') but formerly of the "Rogue Stones and Gemjumping" DRAGON article by Ed Greenwood.
-- George Krashos
-Location? Status?
Which is a title. She carries a few of those, like Demon Queen of the Abyss, Spider Queen, Weaver of Chaos ...
Exactly.
There's a big difference between Lolth the deity and a fiend who represents (and in many ways is an extension of) the Abyss. It's the same way how if someone was mugged and told the police, "That big hairy ape came out of nowhere and attacked me!" it doesn't mean that literally a Troglodytes Gorilla beat them up.
I see no reason not to give Lolth a designation as both demon and goddess. The old first edition AD&D Fiend Folio lists her as such, which is good enough for me.
This, thank you.
Regardless, far more sources (that I know of) say she is a demon... I only have Shemeska the Marauder's word that something he/she (sorry, I don't know) wrote. I'd rather go with more sources and a Dev, then just one magazine article (which, I believe at the time, wasn't always considered canon or usable in RPGA).
Which is a title. She carries a few of those, like Demon Queen of the Abyss, Spider Queen, Weaver of Chaos ...
Yes, a title calling her a demon... why oh why would she have that if she were not a demon?
It was the magazine in print form, not just website.
Then you'll have to provide quotes, I do not have that issue.
Exactly.
There's a big difference between Lolth the deity and a fiend who represents (and in many ways is an extension of) the Abyss. It's the same way how if someone was mugged and told the police, "That big hairy ape came out of nowhere and attacked me!" it doesn't mean that literally a Troglodytes Gorilla beat them up.
A very weak argument not supported by any facts. I have books, collected history and other sources saying she was, indeed, striped of her divinity and turned into a demon. I also have facts that beings can (and are) more then one type or another. Oh, and let's not forget that a Dev has added his opinion on the matter.
You have one source (of which you claim to have written), that I haven't seen, which supposedly says otherwise.
I only have Shemeska the Marauder's word that something he/she (sorry, I don't know) wrote. I'd rather go with more sources and a Dev, then just one magazine article (which, I believe at the time, wasn't always considered canon or usable in RPGA).
Well, usually, regarding all things fiendish you can trust him without hesitation, but just as Iakhovas said I too see no plausible (other than the above mentioned ones, of course;)) reason why Lolth couldn't be listed as both a demon and a deity.
Yes, a title calling her a demon... why oh why would she have that if she were not a demon?
By that logic she would also be a spider, right?
As for Shem ... someone writing for the WotC is someone you can trust on his or her expertise. Else, he or she wouldn't write for WotC. You've got that excellent piece on the 20 greatest villains of D&D?
BTW, The Grand History of the Realms was also collected by a (Realms-) fan and boarder ... and WotC took that idea up and turned this fan project into a book. Hence, rest assured that some on here, especially those who've been around for ages if not aeons ... and come here still, know what they are writing about.
-----
Khurgroth
Ghour
The Ice Spires
MoF WE
...someone writing for the WotC is someone you can trust on his or her expertise.
Unfortunately, this logic definitely isn't foolproof (anymore, at least).
That said, go ahead, guys.
By that logic she would also be a spider, right?
As for Shem ... someone writing for the WotC is someone you can trust on his or her expertise. Else, he or she wouldn't write for WotC. You've got that excellent piece on the 20 greatest villains of D&D?
BTW, The Grand History of the Realms was also collected by a (Realms-) fan and boarder ... and WotC took that idea up and turned this fan project into a book. Hence, rest assured that some on here, especially those who've been around for ages if not aeons ... and come here still, know what they are writing about.
EC wrote for FR, BJ writes for FR and both say she was made a Demon.
Ehh, I don't care if you don't want this to be all inclusive (or have the same standards for the other threads like this).
I was only pointing out that, if we're (well you all, I'm bowing out of this now, seeing as it is clearly selective in editions and lore) going to include devils that are gods, fallen solars who are ex-archdevils and more, it would make sense to show Lloth (who lost her divinity, was turned into a demon and then reclaimed godhood).
Seeing as it is far more hassle then I care for (and the fact that it's generally non-current-realms-related) I have nothing further to contribute in a meaningful way.
Good luck and hopefully this will be useful to all editions in the future.
I was only pointing out that, if we're (well you all, I'm bowing out of this now, seeing as it is clearly selective in editions and lore) going to include devils that are gods, fallen solars who are ex-archdevils and more, it would make sense to show Lloth (who lost her divinity, was turned into a demon and then reclaimed godhood).
Seeing as it is far more hassle then I care for (and the fact that it's generally non-current-realms-related) I have nothing further to contribute in a meaningful way.
Good luck and hopefully this will be useful to all editions in the future.
I'm a freelancer just like Brian/Iakavos and others. I haven't written specifically for FR as a setting, but I've written quite a bit of planar material, several of which have touched upon, referenced, or integrated FR lore. Next to Planescape, FR was my favorite setting. I will admit that I don't care much for what FR has become in 4e.
I suggest you go back and read over what I said earlier about the intrinsic differences between what a fiend (and any of the exemplar outsiders) represents versus a deity. Given what the two concepts are defined by, there's some partial exclusivity between the two. Fiends can gain worship and subsequently gain divine rank/power, but something that starts off as a deity can't become a fiend.
Lolth is the only example in this and associated threads of an entity that started out as a deity. The various others such as archfiends, demon lords, etc who later gained godhood all began as exemplar outsiders - they represented a manifest concept of alignment / one of the various outer planes. As defined, they could gain the power of divinity, but something already a god from the start couldn't become one of them.
Not every author is going to likely agree with me. But based on the body of planar lore out there, and not just the fraction that I've contributed, that's the way I would handle the situation. You and anyone else are free to approach the subject differently.
And krownhunter07, you asked for a quote so here it is. My copies are in storage till I move at the end of May, so these are from the original word doc. I don't believe anything from the following changed during editing. But if anyone has a copy and cares to check me on that, would be appreciated if you have it sitting around.
"Unable to bring himself to destroy her, Corellon stripped her of all but the barest fraction of deific essence and exiled her to join the demons she’d come to resemble."
and
"While her relationship with the fiends of the Abyss has alternated between apathy and open war, especially with Zuggtmoy who gained her enmity early on, the Spider Queen is more comfortable dealing with the prime material and her millions of drow worshippers there. Lacking the same resources and innate connection to the Abyss possessed by the tanar'ri lords, and with the responsibilities of a goddess, Lolth is more concerned with the prime material than with the politics and wars of the Abyss."
... My copies are in storage till I move at the end of May, so these are from the original word doc. I don't believe anything from the following changed during editing. But if anyone has a copy and cares to check me on that, would be appreciated if you have it sitting around.
"Unable to bring himself to destroy her, Corellon stripped her of all but the barest fraction of deific essence and exiled her to join the demons she’d come to resemble."
and
"While her relationship with the fiends of the Abyss has alternated between apathy and open war, especially with Zuggtmoy who gained her enmity early on, the Spider Queen is more comfortable dealing with the prime material and her millions of drow worshippers there. Lacking the same resources and innate connection to the Abyss possessed by the tanar'ri lords, and with the responsibilities of a goddess, Lolth is more concerned with the prime material than with the politics and wars of the Abyss."
This is the exact wording and can be found in Dragon 359 (September 2007), p. 66.
Going by the above, she never really was a demon, since she always retained her divinity.
BTW, the DMG 4E (p. 163) says ...
Though she is properly a god and not a demon, she is called Demon Queen of Spiders.
The GHotR also has her as the 'Demon-Goddess'...
I'll look up that article, but question; is it on the website of paper?
Lloth in 4E sources (the DMG and Manual of the Planes) describe her as a Goddess, but she is not actually a daemon. She merely resembles and acts like them, which is probably why she's so chummy with them in the Abyss but she is not a daemon herself.
-Location? Status?
Location: The Abyss.
Status: Kind of dead - but not really. More like trapped.
-- George Krashos
Lolth is also a "tanar'ri" in the truest sense, in that the word is an elven compound meaning "cast out." Tanar = "emit, send", ri = "out", tanar'ri = "cast out, outcast". This per the elven dictionary compiled by Steven Schend. Lolth may have even been the very first such being to be dubbed tanar'ri--at least in the sense of being cast into the Abyss. When Corellon cast Lolth out from the Seldarine, he pronounced her "tanar'ri" and she descended into the Abyss. This was more than 31,000 years ago per the FR timeline. Since that time, the term "tanar'ri" has come to be synonymous with the racial name for the fiends who inhabit the abyss. Probably due to the influence of elves who have conflated the term to refer to all demons in general.
The demons themselves may not actually use that word to refer to their own kind. I'm not sure if "tanar'ri" is even an actual word in the abyssal language--to whatever extent there is a single abyssal language. If so it may just be a loan word adopted from elven. In 2e there was not a single abyssal language for two reasons: 1) the fiends of the abyss were so chaotic that it was impossible to achieve a "standard" tongue spoken by all, they tended to speak different languages on each layer. And linguistic drift was so endemic that any standard tongue would fragment into different dialects that would rapidly become mutually incomprehensible. But also 2) most fiends were telepathic anyway and did not require the use of spoken language for communication.
The Planescape supplement Faces of Evil: The Fiends, p.55 has this to say about demon communication: "The fiends are far too diverse a crowd to have drawn together in a unifying racial language, so they've learned to project their thoughts across the distances between minds." It goes on at length to describe how the demons communicate with mindspeech. It concludes with this insightful comment: "To tell the truth, the tanar'ri are a deconstructionist's dream. They don't ever fully understand the speech of another fiend, and it goes without saying that they're not fully understood either. When mortal scholars try to learn the tanar'ri language, they usually focus on the dialects of one or two of the chaotic fiends, but even then it's a frustrating task. That may well be part of the reason the tanar'ri are so angry all the time - they're constantly and fundamentally misunderstood. That may also explain why the tanar'ri often resort to methods of communication that can't be misconstrued -- like torture."
Now, as to whether Lolth was racially a "demon" (as opposed to linguistically a tanar'ri), maybe not. But I don't think we can rule that out. It is possible that when she was stripped of her divinity, Lolth may have been reduced to a stripped down soul, a petitioner of sorts, perhaps even a manes. As such, she might actually have worked her way up through the ranks of demons in normal fashion before seizing her place as a demon prince. Though left unmentioned in the myths and legends, it is not inconceivable that Lolth would have had to endure this process, however briefly, before she could properly bond with her plane and assume her new unique form. I assume she didn't look like spider when she was an elven goddess. If so then this process would explain how she came to adopt her new demonic form.
And Lolth strikes me as the kind to embrace such an experience. It is in fact the basis of her philosophy, to improve oneself in Nietzschean fashion through struggle and domination by application of both brute force and force of will. In fact we know that she voluntarily underwent another such transformative process during her recent "Silence" when she ascended to greater godhood. So it seems within reason to consider that Lolth may well be a legitimate demon by race as well as title.
Gary Gygax unquestionably made Lolth a demoness, and I doubt any Realms designer, certainly not Ed, would have the gall to go against that. In Gary's D&D cosmos, demon lords and princes and dukes of Hell and gods and godlings alike are worshipped and grant spells, and 'gods' aren't in principle greater than entities not usually so called. Lolth was one -- albeit the most closely tied -- of many demon lords and princes worshipped by the drow.
I see no reason to complicate things in the Realms, and I tend to see the sources that do as introducing much the same spurious difference as the various rules terms for mightier-than-ninth-level spells used in Realms books.
The point here is that while Gary created her for his own setting (Greyhawk) and had her statted in pretty simple terms, for the FR she gained a nigh complete background from her early days up to now. That she still retains names that were originally placed on her head by Gary does not mean that we have to stick with this Greyhawkian material within Realmspace too. That's one of the problems (especially for the Planescapers and Great Wheelers amongst us) of the look-alikes and name-alikes within the various settings' cosmologies. I for one always saw these pantheons et al as distinct entities, the Abyss and Hells as tools to work with, rather than connections. But that's just me.
It is only natural that updated information in this setting may contradict or advance older material, especially if the old material is pretty vague at best. For the Realms, at least with regards to Lolth, we have a decent amount of information to say that she was no demon.
I think also that you may have failed to consider the simple fact that souls that arrive in the Abyss are (usually) transformed into demons, even though they did not start out as demons in life. In fact, elves who go to the Abyss when they die become demons. They didn't start out as demons, they were elves who became demons by the normal process in which the Abyss creates demons.
While I agree that Lolth did not start out as a demon, she was however stripped of her divinity and found her way to the Abyss. I am unaware of any chronicle or timeline that chronicles her very early days in the Abyss. If anyone knows of any source, please point me to it, I would honestly love to know what she did to consolidate her power in the Abyss. But from what I gather, information about that period is sparse. To that extent, I don't think we can really say whether Lolth went through the transformative process that turned her into a demon or not.
Maybe she arrived in the Abyss as the equivalent of a DVR 1 celestial paragon. Maybe she skipped all the rising through the various demonic forms and went straight to her layer and took possession.
But then again, maybe she arrived in petitioner form and had to rise through the tanar'ri ranks as normal.
Or alternatively, maybe she arrived as a celestial paragon, and then CHOSE to undergo the demonic transformation process. I think it highly possible that she did go through a brief period as a demon in some form. As I said above, it would certainly fit with her character and philosophy to choose to become a demon and fight her way to the top by use of her claws, teeth and wits. Perhaps she started as a manes, or maybe she "tested out" of the lower ranks and started out as a marilith or a balor. But undergoing such a transformation would possibly make it easier for her eventually to bond with her layer and become a demon prince.
And don't forget that "demon" is a blanket term that covers many races--including tanar'ri, loumara, obyriths, and some number of original demon lords that started out as primordials but who were corrupted. I suppose that technically, now, the obyriths would have qualified as corrupted primordials as well. Given the above different races that comprise demon, I think you can see that going the tanar'ri track is not necessarily required to become a "demon." Apparently, the fundamental requirement is some sort of corruption and transformation by the Abyss. To that extent, I think Lolth meets the minimum requirement.
There is certainly evidence of Lolth's demonic transformation, because I doubt very much that she had her spider form when she was an elven god. That very fact alone is strong evidence that she was transformed by the Abyss. To the extent she was transformed by the Abyss, I think that qualifies her as racially a demon. Isn't that in fact the very definition of a demon?
It is only natural that updated information in this setting may contradict or advance older material, especially if the old material is pretty vague at best.
Odd you should say this. Many people who post here base a lot of their distaste on 'updated' information. I agree though.
For the Realms, at least with regards to Lolth, we have a decent amount of information to say that she was no demon.
lol, there is far more information saying she was a demon. So far, we have one article (that I know of) that says otherwise. I tend to go with the most numerous amount of information (and implied understanding), which is, in this case, that she was made into a demon.
I disagree with the statement that we have enough information to conclude that Lolth was no demon. I think you may be starting with your preferred conclusion and then simply affirming it without stating any facts to support it.
Exactly... not to mention the fact that more sources say she was, indeed, a demon.
I think also that you may have failed to consider the simple fact that souls that arrive in the Abyss are (usually) transformed into demons, even though they did not start out as demons in life. In fact, elves who go to the Abyss when they die become demons. They didn't start out as demons, they were elves who became demons by the normal process in which the Abyss creates demons.
Also, some fail to think it is possible for a greater power to punish someone by making them a demon.
While I agree that Lolth did not start out as a demon, she was however stripped of her divinity and found her way to the Abyss. I am unaware of any chronicle or timeline that chronicles her very early days in the Abyss. If anyone knows of any source, please point me to it, I would honestly love to know what she did to consolidate her power in the Abyss. But from what I gather, information about that period is sparse. To that extent, I don't think we can really say whether Lolth went through the transformative process that turned her into a demon or not.
The most FR related source for this (that I know of) is in Evermeet, Isle of Elves novel. Corellon striped her of godhood and transformed her body into what she was in her heart, then he sent her to the Abyss to be among her kind.
That said, she was still powerful, but no longer divine...
And don't forget that "demon" is a blanket term that covers many races--including tanar'ri, loumara, obyriths, and some number of original demon lords that started out as primordials but who were corrupted. I suppose that technically, now, the obyriths would have qualified as corrupted primordials as well. Given the above different races that comprise demon, I think you can see that going the tanar'ri track is not necessarily required to become a "demon." Apparently, the fundamental requirement is some sort of corruption and transformation by the Abyss. To that extent, I think Lolth meets the minimum requirement.
There is certainly evidence of Lolth's demonic transformation, because I doubt very much that she had her spider form when she was an elven god. That very fact alone is strong evidence that she was transformed by the Abyss. To the extent she was transformed by the Abyss, I think that qualifies her as racially a demon. Isn't that in fact the very definition of a demon?
Well, Corellon turned her into a tanar'ri and put her in the Abyss... But I guess that doesn't mean anything...
2. Tanar'ri are a spiritual condition rather than a fixed race with a single heritage. They have many different origins - spawned from the Abyss, sexual reproduction, transformed mortals, created from mortal souls. A fallen celestial can become a tanar'ri through slow evolution. They are too chaotic to be a single thing. They are a state of mind. Beings who did not begin as personifications of chaos and evil can become so. Fire can become water. Lead can become gold.
2. Outside of the 4th edition creation myth that has her as Sehanine's sister, we don't know Lolth's origins. It's possible that Lolth started out as a tanar'ri and that when Corellon "named her tanar'ri" he was exposing her true nature rather than merely transforming her.
3. As Gray said, anyone who rules a layer of the Abyss is an Abyssal lord, including gods such as Kali, Chemosh, Skiggeret, etc. I would not argue that these beings were tanar'ri, however.
4. Monster Mythology, page 62: "She is an elemental force of darkness and evil, a true tanar'ri."
5. The idea that the word "tanar'ri" is Elven smells of false etymology to me; whether or not it's Abyssal, it seems too common across the planes to have come from an Elven term. Further, the vast majority of tanar'ri haven't been "cast out" of anything. I suspect some elves had similar words and reverse-engineered a translation that happened to fit their prejudices.
lol, there is far more information saying she was a demon. So far, we have one article (that I know of) that says otherwise. I tend to go with the most numerous amount of information (and implied understanding), which is, in this case, that she was made into a demon.
Quantity does not match quality. And as for your last sentence ... I think all sources that have any relevance to the Realms start with her as a deity. She was cursed and "transformed into a spider-shaped tanar'ri", to cite DD and cast into the Abyss. There she regained her divine status pretty quickly and became one of the most powerful and active deities of Faerûn. So if you want to nitpick here and there, stick to the fact and argue that she was probably a tanar'ri (a variant of demon) for some time. That this time did not last long can be seen by checking the timeline of Faerûn, which gives you dates for her attack on the Seldarine as well as the influence she gained on the dark elves of Faerûn - when she was already a goddess again.
Shem's entry in that Dragon - which is, whether you like it or not, canon now - edited this bit of vague information of DD and says that she never lost her divinity, as Corellon didn't strip her of all divine essence. That should tell you that Lolth never was a full blooded demon, tanar'ri, or whatnot - even though she was denominated as such and behaved as such, for a time.
Quantity does not match quality.
So what you mean to say is 'the number of sources saying otherwise is less worthy then my subjective opinion on what is better'.
Glad we have that out of the way. The quality of something is in the eye of the beholder. The number of sources confirming something is not opinion.
Think what you like, but (again) I'll stick with common sense.
Is shemmy's the most recent entry on this subject? because I know previous supplements made it sound as if she was entirely stripped of divinity and if we are not going by quanity and instead chronilogically (I think it would be a bit misleading and rude to say quality here as it sounds like your defacing other authors) I would like to see the pulication dates.
No, the article is not the newest source of information. I don't have exact dates, but the Issue they claim it is in is a few years old.
Glad we have that out of the way. The quality of something is in the eye of the beholder. The number of sources confirming something is not opinion.
To be fair, while others have pointed to specific sources to back up their view on the subject, I haven't seen you actually cite specific things except for some quotes from wikipedia.
No, the article is not the newest source of information. I don't have exact dates, but the Issue they claim it is in is a few years old.
Not as old as you think. Dragon 359. September 2007.
However to my knowledge, nothing released since then has directly contradicted it (though of note, material since then would all be 4e material and w/ regards to core 4e material, not necessarily valid for FR in specific).
But by all means, you're welcome to look for anything and provide some actual quotes.
Stripped of her divinity yes, but she wasn't actually a fiend.
How is the definition of fiend? AFAIK it's "evil outsider" so the majority of evil gods are fiends (and demon is defined as "chaotic evil outsider" so many CE gods are also demons)
To be fair, while others have pointed to a specific source to back up their view on the subject, I haven't seen you actually cite specific things except for some quotes from wikipedia.
Bold put is mine, fixed it for you.
Also, I did say were I got my information, maybe you should re-read my posts.
If not, do an advanced search on Google, type in "lolth is a demon" (search exact words) and you'll get 1,110 hits on just it saying she is a demon. Look through those and you'll find far more sources then one article.
Not as old as you think. Dragon 359. September 2007.
I said a few years...
However to my knowledge, nothing released since then has directly contradicted it (though of note, material since then would all be 4e material and w/ regards to core 4e material, not necessarily valid for FR in specific).
Well, here's a contradiction that, just so, happens to be an FR only source, unlike yours and it came out at the same time as your non-FR article.
Araushnee is cast down into the Demonweb Pits, where she becomes the demon-goddess Lolth.
But by all means, you're welcome to look for anything and provide some actual quotes.
I have, you're more then welcome to read my posts and find them. Oh, and showing us FR sources that say is isn't a demon would be nice.
EDIT: Also, I just did a search using 'Lolth is not a demon'... no results, sorry.
Mirtek ... I'd assume that there is no cast-in-stone definition, but I always regarded demons, devils and yugoloth as the prime "fiends" of D&D. And the latter outsiders only after some novel (or Planescape book?) said so. To the average people of the Material Plane, anything that looks like or resembles a horned something with a grim visage and claws or hooves may be "termed" as a fiend, no matter what it actually is. An answer might be found in Planescape's Faces of Evil: The Fiends (TSR 2630) though.
How is the definition of fiend? AFAIK it's "evil outsider" so the majority of evil gods are fiends (and demon is defined as "chaotic evil outsider" so many CE gods are also demons)
"Outsider" as a 3e mechanical term lumps together a number of entities with no real common linkage. Using it and an overly broad notion that all evil outsiders are fiends, you'd be calling some creatures from the elemental planes fiends, despite having absolutely zero connection to evil as a metaphysical concept.
Using a more conceptual definition, fiends would be evil creatures native to one of the lower planes, exemplifying some base concept of any alignment trait that plane represents, or the plane itself. Gods are something else entirely, and so are any other things lumped together under the outsider label.
And as Zanan said, 'Faces of Evil' is pretty much the textbook on the subject regarding the fiends of D&D. No other source goes into as much in-depth detail. Wonderful sourcebook.
Btw, as an aside, do the WotC boards have an ignore function?
Btw, as an aside, do the WotC boards have an ignore function?
Yup. Go to my profile page and you'll see the option to ignore. It works for anyone's profile you go to I believe.
I could be wrong, I don't use ignore (I think it's better to concede a point, or at least agree that something could go more then one way, then ignore people who have a differing, valid position).
EDIT: It seems the ability to view profiles is down for the moment. I suppose you'll have to suffer through seeing whoever's posts you wish to ignore... at least until they get it working again.
Using a more conceptual definition, fiends would be evil creatures native to one of the lower planes, exemplifying some base concept of any alignment trait that plane represents, or the plane itself. Gods are something else entirely,
Why? Acended mortals aside the gods arose on the planes just like the fiends (and with ascended mortals it's not really different than with mortal souls turned into fiends after death)
And as Zanan said, 'Faces of Evil' is pretty much the textbook on the subject regarding the fiends of D&D. No other source goes into as much in-depth detail. Wonderful sourcebook.
Let me echo that with a quote about my favored demons ...
Marilith, six-armed wonders and mind-dancers to the highest degree, are like gems in the heart of the Abyss. Yes, they are evil, but they are deep thinkers and great tacticians. Slaadi and mariliths both prove that chaotic beings need not have to be stupid beings. Oho! The marilith have mastered the inner rages of the tanar'ri (or at least pushed those feelings down). They can anticipate the patterns of law, even though they do not really understand them. The mariliths shape the strategy of the Blood War, they make the plans that confound the baatezu, the cursed, hated baatezu ...
Faces of Evil - The Fiends (p. 46f)
Which actually reminds me of Khalistes, the marilith (demon lord?) of one of the old PC games, Pools of Darkness / Radiance? I think that was her only FR/Planescape appearance though.
EDIT: Mirtek, that may be so, but it would probably stretch the topic somewhat. CoC and all ...
EDIT: Mirtek, that may be so, but it would probably stretch the topic somewhat. CoC and all ...
Which is to say, Mirtek, that you make valid points that they can't explain and keep to the theory that the most powerful elven god cannot do to his lesser what demons can... Even though gods can change the very fabric of reality and create life with but a thought...
Which is to say, Mirtek, that you make valid points that they can't explain and keep to the theory that the most powerful elven god cannot do to his lesser what demons can... Even though gods can change the very fabric of reality and create life with but a thought...
Why do you cite me here? BTW, you're about to stretch the topic too. This is about demons of the Realms, not gods and surely not hypothising on what the latter do or may not do.
Some don't agree, hence the debate.
Unless, of course, you concede the point and think she should be added for completeness sake?
That's the thing, though. Lolth is a demon and a goddess, just like Asmodeus is a devil and a god.
Some don't agree, hence the debate.
Unless, of course, you concede the point and think she should be added for completeness sake?
Very different situation, and again it touches on what I've explained a few times earlier in the thread: Lolth began as a deity, while Asmodeus began as a fiend and (in 4e) subsequently gained divinity. Fiends can and have embraced godhood, either by gaining some critical threshold of mortal worship, or stealing it from a deity, etc. But just based on what they are versus what fiends are, it doesn't go both ways.
Some will agree with my perspective on this, others will go their own way I suppose. I've given my reasons and quoted some sources and mentioned others, and you can dismiss them if you like, but at least consider them and where I'm coming from.
I've given my reasons and quoted some sources and mentioned others, and you can dismiss them if you like, but at least consider them and where I'm coming from.
I'm not dismissing them. As far as I know, you've only shown one source, but that is besides the point. If this is to be a comprehensive source, it would be best to discus what we disagree with.
I believe it would be good to add Lolth onto the list. You disagree. Others have said their peace but it is still in the air, isn't it?
Two others (I think) have agreed with you, more have said the same as myself...
I suppose it doesn't matter, LK makes the list.
Never mind then, I'll just make a list for 4e info... or not, I'm losing interest.
This is an opinion no facts other that Corellon casting Lolth out and Elminster being a woman are true. Just my
IMHO, The way I view Lolth's banishment is that it seems quite similar to a permanent polymorph spell. Corellon transformed her and sent her down to the Abyss to dwell with beings similar to her appearance and personality(Morals ethics beliefs etc.) But it seemed she was still a goddess at her core trapped in a demon form(She was always called the demon Goddess right? Afaik) . I mean Elminster was once transformed into a woman but people ouldnt classify him as a woman would they?
This is an opinion no facts other that Corellon casting Lolth out and Elminster being a woman are true. Just my
Well, that's quite up to the point. krownhunter07 lays much weight on one of her titles, apparently ignoring that it is just that, a title. She ain't a spider because she also called the Queen of Spiders, Spider Queen et al, is she? But as you lack for sources ...
Demihuman Deities, p.26f
As Araushnee, Lolth was once a lesser power of the Seldarine and the consort of Corellon Larethian. She was the patron of artisans, the goddess of elven destiny, and-later, by Corellon's decree-the keeper of those elves who shared her darkly beautiful features.
By order of the Council of the Seldarine, Araushnee was transformed into a spider-shaped tanar'ri and banished to the Abyss.
As an Abyssal Lord, Araushnee assumed the name Lolth and conquered a considerable portion of that foul plane, driving off Ghaunadaur and subjugating Kiaransalee in the process. The Spider Queen then turned her attentions toward corrupting the mortal children of the Seldarine and reclaiming her divinity.
Although the Spider Queen detests all the members of the Seldarine, Lolth reserves her deepest hatred for her former lover, Corellon Larethian, who banished her to the Abyss and named her tanar'ri.
Glossary:
power - was an AD&D term for deity, god
Abyssal Lord - needs not to be a demon (et al), but someone who rules a layer of the Abyss
Note that once she was transformed, once "just" named tanar'ri.
Lost Empires of Faerûn, p.51
-30,000 The War of the Seldarine begins. Araushnee is cast down into the Demonweb Pits, where she becomes the demon-goddess Lolth.
-18,000 ... In the centuries that follow, rival Ilythiiri houses turn to the dark deities, such as Lolth.
As I said above, if she ever truly was a demon, that timespan was pretty short and she reclaimed godhood soon after being cast into the Abyss.
There are only bits and pieces of those events and that Dragon article sheds more light on this in saying that Corellon did not fully transform her, but she retained the barest fraction of deific essence. That tells me that she was not a demon in the true sense of the word, even though she resembled them - for a time - in body and deed. And she ruled amongst them as a queen would, giving life to an entire race of such beings, the yochlol.
I for one fail to see krownhunter07's acceptance of that artcile, as it does not matter whether it is one article or 56, whether Shem wrote it or Ed himself. For once it is out in a Dragon, it belongs to canon.
And even though he is listed as the ruler of the devil-world (which should actually make him Asmodeus), he is most definately a god, and NOT a devil.
I think I can see LK's point here, though. Asmodeus has always been 'down with' the Baatezu, so he's really one of them (unless you buy that Ahriman crap). Whereas Lolth just did 'some time' as a Tanari, she never really was one.
I think the difference here is if a creature/being was born into the fiendish classification, or just aquired it however (and I'm sure there must be MANY more deities and mortals who became fiends that we just never hear about).
I think the difference here is if a creature/being was born into the fiendish classification, or just aquired it however (and I'm sure there must be MANY more deities and mortals who became fiends that we just never hear about).
Please note though, that while some demons can reproduce sexually, the vast majority of demons (more specifically the vast majority of tanar'ri) are produced from the petitioners of deceased mortal souls. Most tanar'ri are born as humans, elves, dwarves, gnolls, or other mortal races, that live a mortal life, and whether because they led an evil life, or made a pact with a demon, or got their soul stolen by force, trick or trade, they end up in the Abyss. The petitioner is transformed into a base petitioner form, such as a lemure or manes, and from there attempts to work its way up the ladder through successive "promotions" and transformations into successive forms. If it is really lucky it can become a balor, or other greater demon, and from there try to win control of an Abyssal territory so as to rank as a demon lord or prince.
But the point is that few demons are actually born as demons, at least compared to the number that are transformed into demons after death.
The whole 'bureaucratic', or 'military' style of graduating to higher levels was dropped, I thought.
Not that it couldn't happen anymore, if an underling showed special promise, but it is no longer the 'main route' to the top (it's now more like the way medieval nobility worked - 99.9999% were born into it, and every so often a commoner got knighted).
In fact, I think they may have even changed the whole arrangement of the afterlife in 4e. The Manes & Lemures never really worked in FR lore anyway, considering where Torillians go when they die.
Please note though, that while some demons can reproduce sexually, the vast majority of demons (more specifically the vast majority of tanar'ri) are produced from the petitioners of deceased mortal souls.
I'm sure no formal demographic studies have been done, but I wouldn't be surprised if, as fecund and lustful as demons can be, as many or more are born from sexual reproduction as are created from mortal souls. Even if you assume that "least" tanar'ri such as manes are sexless and incapable of this, a single armamite or bulezau is capable of siring hundreds of offspring in its lifetime.
Demons can also be born from the substance of the Abyss itself, with no sex involved and no direct relationship to mortal souls. I would suggest that the majority of demons are born as demons.
However, I don't think a tanar'ri who acquires that status is any less a demon than one who was born one.
I would suggest that Lolth was transformed from a goddess to a demon with a shred of divinity, and remains a demon (of the tanar'ri race) with divinity to this day. After 30,100 years, she's as much a tanar'ri as Demogorgon is. While gods and planeborn are very different things, I think it's possible to be both at once, and to arrive from either direction in doing so.
Just like her inability to weave things (having been cursed by Corellon to weave imperfectly) that still plagued her well after she was a goddess again.
Anyways, the GHotR says she became the demon-goddess. It wasn't using that as a title, it was stating the fact.
EDIT: Are we using FR only sources for this information or just whatever we 'know' about them?
I wouldn't mind him turning her into a slaad-with-a-shred-of-divinity, though. I wonder what "slaad" means in Elven?
I wouldn't mind him turning her into a slaad-with-a-shred-of-divinity, though. I wonder what "slaad" means in Elven?
-If it is an Elven word, we don't have a definition for it.
Right, and the fact that most of her (8?) forms is demon like, with only one in the form of a Drow, shows that she still, after all that time, is a tanar'ri (and now greater goddess).
Just like her inability to weave things (having been cursed by Corellon to weave imperfectly) that still plagued her well after she was a goddess again.
Anyways, the GHotR says she became the demon-goddess. It wasn't using that as a title, it was stating the fact.
EDIT: Are we using FR only sources for this information or just whatever we 'know' about them?
Uh ... she is also called Spider Goddess, hence, she's also a spider! She's got three forms, none of them looks particularly demonic, more like a spider or - for that matter an abberation (Drider) - so, by your logic (which I am not insulting, just following) she's a spider! There we have it.
The "form" (note the singular, as of FRCG, p 75) she took after the ritual was that of seven spiders and one beautiful drow maiden, also described in the Lady Penitent series. Other forms, i.e. large black widow spider with or without a drow head are described in e.g. Demihuman Deities.
And while we are at it, FR sources only, the latest one is given in the FRCG and this says with regard to the "8-bodies-form"* and her being:
She took these forms when, through the force of her own horrific will, she transformed into the greater goddess she is today.
(FRCG, p. 75)
But maybe a spider is a demon too these days
Anyway, there's only so much evidence one can ignore.
*That form was apparently taken from a spider's eight legs (missing that it also has a body) and represents 8 aspects of Lolth. They all together "are" Lolth.
Lung Jua, better known as Dragon Claw.
Mad Monkey vs, Dragon Claw, 2nd edition.
Copper Demon of Troos
Multiple sources, most recently in The Hordlands, 2e
You also need to 'embolden' Stentka Taran on your list. ;)
....
Your whole post missed the point I made. It was not used as a title, it was stating she is a demon and a goddess.
People take a few of your words out of context and blow it out of proportion.
I should know... I'm a master at it. :D
On Topic:
Suppose a magic-user (Druid, whatever) turned himself into a bear. He stays in that form too long (maybe not possible in the RaW, but definately a fantasy-trope), and 'becomes' the bear.
He spends many, many years in bear form - maybe even having a few cubs - and then one day he runs into a Chosen of Mystra (or whatever) and he/she changes him back into a man.
So, does that actually make him a bear?
Thats the case with Lolth - if she didn't start out as a demon, she is NOT a demon, even if she spent a millenia or so as one.
As I stated earlier with Druaga - he is called Ruler of the Devil-World, but that does not make him a Baatezu. A title is just that - a title.
Suppose a magic-user (Druid, whatever) turned himself into a bear. He stays in that form too long (maybe not possible in the RaW, but definately a fantasy-trope), and 'becomes' the bear.
He spends many, many years in bear form - maybe even having a ew cubs - and then one day he runs into a Chosen of Mystar (or whatever) and he/she changes him back into a man.
So, does that actually make him a bear?
Thats the case with Lolth - if she didn't start out as a demon, she is NOT a demon, even if she spent a millenia or so as one.
Well, your example implies that the magic-user had some sort of choice. However, Lolth hadn't. She couldn't choose between demon, halfling or any other vermin. In addition, Lolth never truly became Araushnee again, not in form (as an elven deity) nor in attitude (she's even more nasty nowadays).
If the druid's deity transformed him into a bear and the guy tried to work his way back to a human but instead he's just became something in between animal and human (or both; by himself, without the aid of a Chosen dabbler), then your metaphor would fit.
It sounds like exaclty the same to me.
'God' is not a form - gods can take any form they wish. 'Godhood' is a state of being. Lolth can look like Araushnee anytime she wishes to do so (and DID, in a scene in E:IoE).
By the same token, I can move to Germany and learn to speak German like a native... but that wouldn't make me German. I would merely look and sound like a German.
On the other hand, if something became a fiend permanently, and was never changed back, then I might have to agree that would be a case of something being something without having to be born into it.
In older, 2e lore, Manes and Lemures 'graduated' to higher levels and became true fiends, and they are actually the souls of deceased mortals. Being dead first I would definately count as an exception, since you are basically 'reborn' as the new creature.
In addition, Lolth never truly became Araushnee again, not in form (as an elven deity) nor in attitude (she's even more nasty nowadays).
-She never stopped being Araushnee. If I changed my name to Gary, moved to Montana, and became a big banking mogul, I'd still be the same person.
Lung Jua, better known as Dragon Claw.
Copper Demon of Troos
-Locations? Statuses?
Your whole post missed the point I made. It was not used as a title, it was stating she is a demon and a goddess.
No ... I just noted that despite the "demon-goddess" denomination - for it is nothing but that - it has been shown that she was no demon (DD), might have been transformed into one (DD) (yet this has by now been clarified not to be the case (Dragon) ) and is no demon (FRCG). Pointing at a denomination does not change these facts. And no, spiders are not demons in my eyes either.
Lord Karsus, you don't like Kalistes of Pools of Darkness?
Lord Karsus, you don't like Kalistes of Pools of Darkness?
-Don't have the book/game.
-Don't have the book/game.
You don't need to own all the books or games to have her in that list ... or don't you trust me?
Here's the gist of the game and another tanar'ri name, actually:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pools_of_Darkness
No ... I just noted that despite the "demon-goddess" denomination - for it is nothing but that - it has been shown that she was no demon (DD), might have been transformed into one (DD) (yet this has by now been clarified not to be the case (Dragon) ) and is no demon (FRCG). Pointing at a denomination does not change these facts. And no, spiders are not demons in my eyes either.
Then by your logic, Asmodeus is no longer a devil. Since it only states him as a god in the books, he must not be a devil, right?
You can't have it both ways. Unless, of course, double standards are the norm...
EDIT: And no, it was not just a 'denomination', BJR wrote that in, it was approved by WotC for FR and he confirmed that it meant she was a demon in this very thread.
If you can show me an FR source that says she is not a demon, or rather, that she was never made into a demon, I will concede the point.
-Locations? Statuses?
Both K-T (although that would include the Hordelands, which are technically part of Faerûn, I think).
Status? Lung Jua is still Dragon Claw, and still being a prig in the east, although Monkey keeps him in check. Mostly seen in the island nations of Wa & Kozakura, but can be found anywhere from Malatra to Koryo, and all the way east into the Endless wastes (anywhere anyone finds 'Shou' peoples).
The copper Demon of Troos was last seen inside an acorn...
I kid you not... it's the Acorn of Wo Mai, which was lost during a 'Barbarian invasion' of the east.
I have a whole bunch of homebrew revolving around that for the K-T project, but what I posted above is all canon.
You don't need to own all the books or games to have her in that list ... or don't you trust me?
-No, it's not that, but it's hard to list if I don't know the individual in question, or it's existence, not having the book(s) to look it up. There's a bunch of stuff in that link, though.
Then by your logic, Asmodeus is no longer a devil. Since it only states him as a god in the books, he must not be a devil, right?
-No, Asmodeus technically wouldn't a devil any longer, really. When Humans undergo apotheosis, and become deities, and aren't Humans any longer. They become gobs of divine energy (possibly/likely Incarnum energy) with the personality of the mortal being. Likewise, when/if Asmodeus undergoes true apotheosis, he wouldn't be a Devil any longer. He'd become a divine gob of energy with Asmodeus' personality and traits. Finder Wyvernspur, in Finder's Bane confirms that, as a deity, he was not fully a Human, being that he said when he siphoned his divine energy into the Finder's Stone that he was a Human once more, the once more being the key phrase.
-The problem concerning Lolth is that her "story" is the polar opposite of Asmodeus': She was a gob of divine energy, and then become something else- and then became a gob of divine energy once more.
Status...
-Alright, I'll have those updated in there.
Suppose a magic-user (Druid, whatever) turned himself into a bear. He stays in that form too long (maybe not possible in the RaW, but definately a fantasy-trope), and 'becomes' the bear.
He spends many, many years in bear form - maybe even having a few cubs - and then one day he runs into a Chosen of Mystra (or whatever) and he/she changes him back into a man.
So, does that actually make him a bear?
That would be a good analogy if divinity was something that was incompatible with other states of being, as manhood is incompatible with bearhood.
However, I don't think that's the case. Rather, divinity is something that's appended on to your previous state.
Velsharoon was undead before he became a god, yes? Now that he's a god, is he still undead? According to the rules, yes. "Undead" is still his creature type, not outsider. Thus, he's both undead and a god (as opposed to an undead god, as Tenebrous was, which is something different entirely: undead gods are to gods as undead mortals are to mortals, while Velsharoon is only the regular kind of undead, an undead mortal who has become the regular kind of god).
Divinity is cumulative; it is added to a subject's ontological nature without replacing it. Asmodeus didn't stop being a devil when he became a god; neither did Orcus stop being a demon when he achieved his own comparatively short-lived apotheosis. I don't believe that gods are merely "gobs of divine energy" - rather, they're beings who possess gobs of divine energy, are capable of wielding it. Divinity changes their perspective and their relationship to the multiverse, but it doesn't necessarily change their basic nature.
Finder, when he became a god, was no longer merely human (and his type did change to outsider), but merely subtracting his divinity made him human again, which I think proves that divinity adds to a being without utterly transforming it. If he had completely become a blob of divine energy, siphoning that energy away would have left him as nothing at all. Clearly there was a human "core" that remained throughout his apotheosis.
When Corellon transformed Lolth into a tanar'ri (assuming she wasn't secretly a tanar'ri even before she met him, which I believe is a possibility), her ontological nature was changed, but she retained her gobs of divine energy in addition to her status as a tanar'ri. When she gained her old power back (and more besides) there's no reason, I think, to believe she ever stopped being a tanar'ri, a manifestation of chaos and evil, a living extension of the Abyss, for all that she now considers herself to be above the petty politics of her fellow tanar'ri lords.
She was never "briefly something else" - per Shemmy, she never stopped being a goddess. So she is more like a bear who retained a shred of his manhood, and continued to gain more and more essential humanity without ever losing his fur or claws - if humanity is here defined as something a beast can gain without losing any of its beastliness, perhaps composed of intangible qualities such as intelligence, language skills, and a fondness for the Planescape setting. If temporarily stripped of all but a shred of these things, someone is little more than an animal, not a proper human at all, but if all three of these qualities exist in an individual, they are human, for all that they may hibernate in the winter and steal pick-a-nick baskets.
I would define a god as a being made up of myth and faith and belief, who exists to some degree in the hearts of believers and written in the fabric of the universe and the laws of nature - but I think that might be a very comfortable place for a demon to be, and is not at all incompatible with being a personification of hate and lust and sin and rage, the Abyss as it exists in the hearts of humanity, as it exists in myth and nightmare. Yes, tanar'ri do quite well as gods, terrifyingly well, even.
As for Druaga, he is an alias of Ahriman in Zoroastrianism, who as we know is an alias of Asmodeus. He might well be an aspect or guise of Asmodeus; certainly, he has no place in the mythos of the Babylonian pantheon as we understand it historically. As described in Deities & Demigods, his symbol is a ruby mace (Asmodeus's symbol, of course, is a ruby rod), he's called the ruler of the devil world, and he was given the same power level as Asmodeus at the time (a lesser god). I think it's very likely that the authors always intended the two to be the same being.
'God' is not a form - gods can take any form they wish. 'Godhood' is a state of being. Lolth can look like Araushnee anytime she wishes to do so (and DID, in a scene in E:IoE).
By the same token, I can move to Germany and learn to speak German like a native... but that wouldn't make me German. I would merely look and sound like a German.
Right. Lolth can look and sound like Araushnee if she chooses, but she remains a demon underneath. The change from Araushnee to Lolth was very profound, much more significant, I think, than a mere change in name. Her name was changed because her nature was changed, and she hasn't changed her name back because her nature is still the same as it was, in both personality and in her "true" form or forms, as it was when she was first cast down from Arvandor.
In older, 2e lore, Manes and Lemures 'graduated' to higher levels and became true fiends, and they are actually the souls of deceased mortals. Being dead first I would definately count as an exception, since you are basically 'reborn' as the new creature.
There are examples, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, of creatures being transformed into demons in 2e without dying first (Tuerny the Merciless in Return of the Eight by Roger E. Moore, and Kaliva in "Nemesis" by Christopher Perkins in Dungeon #60). They became as demonic as any of their fellows, achieving "true tanar'ri" status under their own merit (Tuerny began his demonic existence as a dretch and rose to nalfeshnee, and Kaliva as a rutterkin who eventually became a marilith).
Right. Lolth can look and sound like Araushnee if she chooses, but she remains a demon underneath. The change from Araushnee to Lolth was very profound, much more significant, I think, than a mere change in name. Her name was changed because her nature was changed, and she hasn't changed her name back because her nature is still the same as it was, in both personality and in her "true" form or forms, as it was when she was first cast down from Arvandor.
Note that she assumed a new name by herself, own free will and all that. I for one would doubt that Corellon would have chosen his consort (if not to say wife) from something that he would have deemed to be as imperfect as a demon. She might have tricked him here and there with her politics, but I doubt that she could have tricked him with her nature (when she was still Araushnee and his consort).
I for one would doubt that Corellon would have chosen his consort (if not to say wife) from something that he would have deemed to be as imperfect as a demon. She might have tricked him here and there with her politics, but I doubt that she could have tricked him with her nature (when she was still Araushnee and his consort).
Just to throw a related twist in here for discussion sake, and not because I agree with this design decision...
4E tells us the Akadi (a primordial, each an ancient enemy of the gods) was able to masquerade in the elven pantheon as Aerdrie for millennia without anyone noticing. So it’s not out of the realm of possibility that Corellon couldn't ‘detect’ that Araunshee was a demon.
-Well, no. The FRCG does not say that Akadi was masquerading as Aerdrie Faenya without nobody noticing, fooling everyone. It discusses the "revelation" that Akadi is Aerdrie Faenya in the Evereska entry, noting that mortal followers in Evereska were taken aback and a bit confused following it, but says nothing of Akadi fooling the Seldarine, or other deities.
Ain't it apparent that she obviously did?
Anyways, FR lore says Araushnee/Lolth was a goddess and unless some more Akadi-like lore happens by ...
Ain't it apparent that she obviously did?
Anyways, FR lore says Araushnee/Lolth was a goddess and unless some more Akadi-like lore happens by ...
*sigh* FR lore also says she was turned into a demon.
Again, if you can find an FR source that says she was never a demon, then I'll concede the point. If you can't, then she should be on the list (just like Asmodeus is on the list for devils).
Meph as well, since we know, in FR, that he sucked up some of that 'gobs of divine energy' from EC.
Again, if you can find an FR source that says she was never a demon, then I'll concede the point. If you can't, then she should be on the list (just like Asmodeus is on the list for devils).
The one source in Dragon also discusses Lolth's Silence as it pertained to FR, and Lolth's increased divine power on Toril and some other worlds as a direct result of it. I think that perhaps might satisfy it being an FR source, but I'll let others judge that.
-Well, no. The FRCG does not say that Akadi was masquerading as Aerdrie Faenya without nobody noticing, fooling everyone. It discusses the "revelation" that Akadi is Aerdrie Faenya in the Evereska entry, noting that mortal followers in Evereska were taken aback and a bit confused following it, but says nothing of Akadi fooling the Seldarine, or other deities.
Unless they were I don't see why they would put up with a primordial among their ranks. Then again, it can be argued that not all primordials are direct enemies of the Gods and some actually helped the Gods during the dawn war (so are still free at the moment).
Doesn't Lolth/Araushnee have yet another name that she is known by?
-Well, no. The FRCG does not say that Akadi was masquerading as Aerdrie Faenya without nobody noticing, fooling everyone. It discusses the "revelation" that Akadi is Aerdrie Faenya in the Evereska entry, noting that mortal followers in Evereska were taken aback and a bit confused following it, but says nothing of Akadi fooling the Seldarine, or other deities.
Yeah!
Maybe Corellon just had himself a little case of 'Primordial Fevor'. :D
Let us not forget that Akadi was also male and know as Teylas, Lord of Storms, in the Hordelands...
Which probably appealed to Corellon's... androgynous... nature. ;)
And now, my favorite tactic - I'll throw a new monkey-wrench into the works...
Doesn't Lolth/Araushnee have yet another name that she is known by?
Yeah!
Maybe Corellon just had himself a little case of 'Primordial Fevor'. :D
Let us not forget that Akadi was also male and know as Teylas, Lord of Storms, in the Hordelands...
Which probably appealed to Corellon's... androgynous... nature. ;)
Thanks for that! The man in me (which is to say all 2,010%) likes to forget that little bit of Corellon lore, so as not to taint my view of the people...
Now I have to work on forgetting again!
Unless they were I don't see why they would put up with a primordial among their ranks. Then again, it can be argued that not all primordials are direct enemies of the Gods and some actually helped the Gods during the dawn war (so are still free at the moment).
-The information about (A) Akadi not being a deity and (B) Aerdrie Faenya existing as an actual deity, but rather, a "mask" worn by Akadi retconned older information, so there are always (normally) going to be some degree of disjointedness in smoothing out the old and new. But that aside, in the FRCG it states that Ubtao was a primordial that didn't "go" to Abeir, and chose to "act" like a deity. Likewise, if Ubtao could do so, so could Akadi. Akadi is/was (a) neutral (deity) anyway, so why wouldn't they accept her? The Seldarine generally leans Chaotic and Good/Neutral.
Doesn't Lolth/Araushnee have yet another name that she is known by?
-Lolth has other aliases she is known by, including the misspelling "Lloth", and the deities she masquerades around as sometimes, Megwandir, Moander, and Zinzerena.
-Lolth has other aliases she is known by, including the misspelling "Lloth", and the deities she masquerades around as sometimes, Megwandir, Moander, and Zinzerena.
Hmm, my understanding was that 'Lloth' was the Drow pronunciation of her name?
Hmm, my understanding was that 'Lloth' was the Drow pronunciation of her name?
-It was originally a spelling error somewhere along the line, that was unknowingly used by R.A. Salvatore, and Elaine Cunningham, both of whom continued rolling with in their novels, which features character primarily from Menzoberranzan. This was then smoothed out by Demihuman Deities (I believe) mentioning that 'Lloth' was simply the Menzoberenyr (sp?) spelling of 'Lolth'.
Still, since the older novels are still being reprinted, you'll most likely see it appear every now and then.
In times past, Drow were very xenophobic, even against their own kind from other cities, but in the past century or so (and thanks to such places as Skullport and Vaerndoun) they realized that great wealth and power can be had by trading with others, and so the inter-Drow relationship of various cities has been vastly improved.
And thus, the Menzo mispelling has become less and less pronounced in Menzoberranzan itself, as they interact with other Drow, until the point where it is no longer in use at all by the Year of the Ageless One.
One Caveat: Older Drow Priestesses of Menzo (and younger, more traditional ones) still insist that their spelling was the correct one... which is why Lolth chose their city out of all others to appear in during the ToT. Although their is no evidence that this was indeed Lolth's original name given her by Corellon, the fact that she chose to snub her own 'Temple City' in favor of Menzoberranzan leaves many to wonder.
Stripped of her divinity yes, but she wasn't actually a fiend. She wasn't ever an actual demon for it to be stripped of her at any point later when she managed to regain her actual divine rank.
Trust me on this one dude.
Sorry to come late to the party.
I believe the relevant quote here is from Demihuman Deities, p. 28:
"By order of the Council of the Seldarine, Araushnee was transformed into a spider-shaped tanar'ri and banished to the Abyss... The Spider Queen then turned her attentions toward corrupting the mortal children of the Seldarine and reclaiming her divinity."
To me, that seems both clear and definitive, at least in reference to Lolth at that time.
Balor
Hellgate Keep
Slain 1364 DR
Ssaarn of the Five Hands (member of the Marilith Triumvirate)
Marilith
Hellgate Keep
Slain 1367
Mulvassyss the Sceptered (member of the Marilith Triumvirate)
Marilith
Hellgate Keep
Slain 1368
Amassyra the Tricoil (member of the Marilith Triumvirate)
Marilith
Hellgate Keep
Slain 1366
Khaanyr Vhok (son of Mulvassyss the Sceptered, slayer of Amassyra, slayer of Mulvassyss)
Cambion/Half-fiend
Hellgate Keep
Sorry to come late to the party.
I believe the relevant quote here is from Demihuman Deities, p. 28:
"By order of the Council of the Seldarine, Araushnee was transformed into a spider-shaped tanar'ri and banished to the Abyss... The Spider Queen then turned her attentions toward corrupting the mortal children of the Seldarine and reclaiming her divinity."
To me, that seems both clear and definitive, at least in reference to Lolth at that time.
You only get so much info in one book or another. Demihuman Deities came out a decade before the article. The latter just added to the info given in DD, shedding that quantum of detail more to it. And ... it has become canon. As in: trust the author of that article, i.e. Shem.
You only get so much info in one book or another. Demihuman Deities came out a decade before the article. The latter just added to the info given in DD, shedding that quantum of detail more to it. And ... it has become canon. As in: trust the author of that article, i.e. Shem.
Except that that article is not FR, big difference when we are listing FR demons...
Lolth, in the Forgotten Realms, was striped of her divinity and turned into a demon. She later became a goddess again, but NO FR SOURCE has stated that she is no longer a demon.
Again, one article, that is not about FR, is not credible enough to ignore multiple FR sources that she otherwise.
You only get so much info in one book or another. Demihuman Deities came out a decade before the article. The latter just added to the info given in DD, shedding that quantum of detail more to it. And ... it has become canon. As in: trust the author of that article, i.e. Shem.
I confess I have no idea what "shedding that quantum of detail more to it" means. If you're looking for detail, Demihuman Deities has more on Lolth than the write-up in Dragon #359.
I also don't know what "it" is in "it has become canon." When canonical writings conflict with themselves, they do need to be resolved, but I don't know that I'm comfortable trusting what I presume was credited as a member of the "Paizo staff" in Dragon #359 over Eric Boyd.
The article doesn't "add to the info given in DD," it disagrees with it. Simply coming later doesn't mean that it's correct.
I couldn't care less whether Lolth is included on a listing of demons in FR. I don't think that's what Lord Karsus was concerned with when he started the thread, something I think is actually worthwhile.
Again, one article, that is not about FR
I specifically talked about Lolth's silence on Toril in that article. Obviously it had nothing to do about FR. ;)
I specifically talked about Lolth's silence on Toril in that article. Obviously it had nothing to do about FR. ;)
Yep, somehow that goes amiss with the "resenters".
capnvan ... DD is dated to 1996+/- and the article sheds lots info on Araushnee / Lolth. Books have come out later who gave additional info on this, including this Dragon article or the WotSQ and LP novel series. This info updates and sometimes changes the lore of days gone by. The 4E-FRCG entry of the Underdark actually actively changes canon lore by saying that Lolth actually slew Kiaransalee, which was not the case. By default, that is canon lore now though - although most on here would assume this to be a monumental error in the designer's work.
Shem gave a little extra info on Araushnee's transformation, specifically mentioning Toril and the Realms (do note that the war of the Seldarine and Lolth being some Araushnee before is not exactly Core Lore, but a back-projection of FR material into Core material). Hence, it has become canon lore for the Realms. Why? Because all articles published in a WotC book and mentioning specific setting become canon lore - at least with the Realms. And that is not just my wishfull thinking, rest assured.
This makes some sense, since yochlols are also interpreted as demons, but not tanar'ri, in 3rd edition. Both Lolth and her yochlol handmaidens were explicitly called tanar'ri in 2nd edition, but the words "demon" and "tanar'ri" subsequently became decoupled, making new decisions about exactly who is a tanar'ri and who is another kind of demon perfectly valid.
So Lolth is indeed both a goddess and a demon, but a demon who, perhaps because of her focus on the races of the mortal world rather than the Abyss, doesn't have the same connection to her plane as other demons. Of course, there's also the whole "made her layer its own plane" thing.
I think this is a reasonable interpretation, consistent with both previous and contemporary references, and suggest we all agree that this is the last word in canon.
After all the references, across almost 30 years of publication history, that explicitly call her a demon, it seems a little silly to say that a single line in an article that also calls her a demon means she's not a demon after all. To my knowledge, nothing's ever said she isn't, and I don't see any conflict or contradiction between the various sources.
Anyway, back to the original point of this thread, I'd add:
Phalse
Unique (resembles a beholder-headed human [related to the oculus demons from Expedition to the Demonweb Pits?], but disguised as a halfling)
Allied with Cassana of Westgate, Zrie Prakis, the Fire Knives, and the cult of Moander. Defeated on the Positive Energy Plane; probably banished back to the Abyss.
Hall of Heroes (1989), pages 5-7. Azure Bonds.
Add to that an erroneous timeline handed-out at a Gencon, along with other Gencon handouts over the years, and also tack-on all the Kara-Tur, Al-Qadim, and Maztica material which people can view either way, depending upon their mood and sensibilites. I haven't even mentioned some of the pre-FR Realms material, like a couple of adventures (the Bloodstone ones come to mind, but there were others as well), or any of numerous articles Ed wrote over the years about FR in Dragon Magazine, before TSR bought the Realms from Ed and made everything official.
Oh... and there was at least a couple of NPCs from Krynn on Toril, at least one from Lankhmar (a Newhon Ghoul, IIRC), and at least one from Toril on Oerth/Greyhawk (Khelben the younger), and also numerous mentions of the Realms in core products (the 2e Book f Artifacts jumps to mind). So FR 'canon' is all over the place, and no-one really knows for sure where the hell to draw the line.
One could almost think that destroying twenty years of Realmlore would be a good thing... almost. ;)
... and there was at least a couple of NPCs from Krynn on Toril, at least one from Lankhmar (a Newhon Ghoul, IIRC)
Arguably Ilmater is fom Lankhmar, too, though I wouldn't call that "canon."
Canon can indeed be elusive and contradictory, though in this case I don't think it is. Every source seems to be in accord.
The source that seems most concerned with distinguishing between Lolth and the tanar'ri lords is Expedition to the Demonweb Pits. While I think Shemeska's article actually bolsters the argument that Lolth is still a demon, Expedition does not. It never refers to her by that word, and portrays the demons as resenting her divine status - though I'm not sure if this is because they would like to become divine as well or because they simply hate deities. In any case, this book doesn't explicitly contradict the idea that Corellon transformed her fully into a demon. I don't think it mentions Corellon or the Seldarine at all.
The 3rd edition Drow of the Underdark describes several alternate myths that the drow are said to believe, most of which don't portray Lolth as ever having fallen. If those myths are true, Lolth is the same as she's ever been - which is to say, a goddess.
I think I would agree that there seems to have been an editorial decision in late 3.5 to stop portraying Lolth as anything but a goddess and to eliminate all the other drow gods.
This is the kind of crude retconning I dislike (and Shemeska normally dislikes too, so I'm a bit puzzled), so I'm grateful that this is never made explicit. In the absence of anything saying outright that Lolth was never transformed into a demon, I think we're impelled to assume she still was.
After all the references, across almost 30 years of publication history, that explicitly call her a demon, it seems a little silly to say that a single line in an article that also calls her a demon means she's not a demon after all. To my knowledge, nothing's ever said she isn't, and I don't see any conflict or contradiction between the various sources.
Shouldn't this read ...
After all the references, across almost 30 years of publication history, that explicitly call her a goddess, ...
...? You'd have to dig hard for the bits of Torillian info which name her anything but goddess, and while those naming her a demon are few and far between, often referring to a very short time span at that. Which was mentioned above. After all, we speak of FR material here, not some Gygaxian Greyhawk stuff.
He was a former archdevil only in 4e core. Everywhere else, including FR, he was a child of Pale Night (who was herself one of the first Obyriths in the Abyss).
My current interpretation of the state of "canon" on this subject is that Graz'zt must have been the son of Pale Night and an archdevil.
There's actually some support for this in previous editions. Graz'zt's brother Vucarik is said to be possibly related to the kytons of the Nine Hells in Hellbound: The Blood War ("If Vucarik truly is tainted with lawful blood..."). James Jacobs' "Demonomicon of Iggwilv: Graz'zt" suggests briefly that Graz'zt might be the son of Asmodeus. And of course Uncaged: Faces of Sigil presents Graz'zt as interested in uniting the fiends and ending the Blood War.
So let's assume, for the sake of not having to argue with 4e-people about canon, that Asmodeus and Pale Night were the parents of Graz'zt (and possibly Vucarik as well). Graz'zt spent some eons serving his father in Baator as an archdevil before defecting to his mother's home plane.
The idea that Graz'zt was half-devil was once something I argued vehemently against, since it implies that the one of the best examples of a calculating, intelligent demon isn't a true demon at all, thus dissing all demons and the chaotic evil alignment as a whole. However, I prefer an interpretation that preserves Graz'zt's connection to Pale Night and his siblings. And it does seem the best way to reconcile the various interpretations.
I think making Graz'zt half'N'half is a good compromise, and would explain much.
Shouldn't this read ...
After all the references, across almost 30 years of publication history, that explicitly call her a goddess, ...
No, because everyone here agrees she's a goddess, so no evidence of that was needed.
But yes, I could have just as easily have said that as well, if that was the argument I was trying to make - and I have made that argument in Greyhawk forums, where not everyone remembers that she was called a goddess from the get-go.
You'd have to dig hard for the bits of Torillian info which name her anything but goddess, and while those naming her a demon are few and far between, often referring to a very short time span at that. Which was mentioned above. After all, we speak of FR material here, not some Gygaxian Greyhawk stuff.
1. Since Demihuman Deities called her a demon, and this hasn't been contradicted by anything published before or since, that ought to be the end of the argument over whether she was at least a demon at one point.
2. Shemeska's Dragon article, which you were advocating a moment ago, calls her a demon-goddess. Is it Realms canon or isn't it?
3. The Crystal Shard by R.A. Salvatore:
Errtu's evil grin widened along with its squinting eyes. "Unusual choice for a drow," it hissed sarcastically. "I would have expected the symbol of Llolth, demon queen of your people. She would not be pleased!"
4.Homeland, by R.A. Salvatore:
Zak's growing smile washed away suddenly. "Except for the children” he whispered. "Often have I heard the cries of dying children, though never, I promise you, have I caused them. I have always wondered if they, too, are evil, born evil. Or if the weight of our dark world bends them to fit our foul ways”
"The ways of the demon Lloth," Drizzt agreed.
4. Having to dig hard isn't really a valid criterion when deciding whether or not something is canon or not. I had to dig hard to find a mention of Phalse or, for example, Telshazz (who I don't think anyone's mentioned yet): that doesn't mean they aren't part of the canon.
5. I object strongly to the artificial distinction between the Lolth of Toril and the Lolth of Greyspace. There's no indication anywhere that they're substantially different, and they're explicitly the same in a great many sources (including Shemeska's Dragon article - is that a valid source or not?). Even if they're not the same, they're twins, and what applies to one can safely be assumed to apply to the other. And in any case, as above, a number of Realms-specific sources call her a demon anyway.
Araushnee was a mortal dark Elf before she was goddess. According to Evermeet: Isle of Elves, all of her divine might was bestowed upon her by Corellon (which is why he was able to so-easilly take it away again).
So she was a mortal.
Then she was a Goddess.
Then she was a demon (a Lord, making her the equivalent of a demigod).
Then she was an Intermediate power. (we seem to have skipped a step)
And finally, at the end of 3e she became a Greater Deity.
She's been many things, and has taken many forms, but she IS a goddess, and WAS a Demon. She can no longer be considered a Demon by any stretch of the imagination, even if some still prefer to call her one.
Note that it is usually persons not of her faithful that speak of her thus, and are doing so in a deregatory manner. It is meant as an insult. AFAIK, none of her FR worshippers have ever called her a Demon - she had already regained her deific power before coming to Toril.
Oerth Drow call her a Demon-Queen... and maybe thats why they got passed over when she was looking for a Yor'thae. ;)
Then she was a demon (a Lord, making her the equivalent of a demigod).
Then she was an Intermediate power. (we seem to have skipped a step)
She was a lesser goddess in the following sources: Queen of the Demonweb Pits, Deities & Demigods 1st edition, Fiend Folio 1st edition, Drow of the Underdark (Ed Greenwood version).
In 1st edition, all demon lords were lesser powers.
As for Demihuman Deities, it says he transformed her into a "spider-like tanar'ri" and magic as such might transform someone (so too can any decent spellhurler), but not necessarily change her to another being for good.
I already said that the denomination was probably ill selected, demon-goddess that is. Anyway, if LK wants to have her in his list, so be it.
While I do feel she is no longer a Demon, and still feel Asmodeus is a Devil, I realize the duplicity in that. I know that it doesn't really make a whole lot of logical sense (from a rules-perspective), but I can't help veiwing it that way. Lolth 'fell' to beome a demon; Asmodeus 'made good' to become a God.
Even when I try to apply the "they are what they were born" argument, I'm still being unfair, because I consider ascended mortals gods, and not mortals any longer (except for Cyric - he's just a jerk with a lot of power). Maybe because I consider 'godhood' a state of being, and not a race... but then, I should think of Asmodeus as a god, eh?
She was a lesser goddess in the following sources: Queen of the Demonweb Pits, Deities & Demigods 1st edition, Fiend Folio 1st edition, Drow of the Underdark (Ed Greenwood version).
In 1st edition, all demon lords were lesser powers.
Nice catch - I thought that may have been the case, but I typed all of that off the top of my head (it was too late here to bother checking sources).
So she really has been everything. :D
I hadn't been aware that Demon Lords were considred lesser powers in 1e - what source is that in?
I hadn't been aware that Demon Lords were considred lesser powers in 1e - what source is that in?
The first edition Manual of the Planes, page 102, said: "Demon lords and princes are considered Lesser Powers in their home planes." This implies, howeer, they're not considered Lesser Powers elsewhere (or, at least, not always). Earlier, the first edition Deities & Demigods tome listed all demon, devil, dragon, slaad, and elemental lords that had been described to that date as lesser gods (first page of the Nonhumans' Deities section; page number depends on the printing). In this case, it simply said "The following beings from the Monster Manual and Fiend Folio should be treated as lesser gods, though they very rarely have human worshipers." The list included Demogorgon, Juiblex, Orcus, Yeenoghu, Asmodeus, Baalzebul, Dispater, Geryon, Bahamut, Tiamat, Lolth, the Elemental Princes of Evil, Ssendam, and Ygorl. It didn't suggest this changed when they moved to other planes.
What's interesting to me is that if Lolth was a lesser goddess (it actually says "minor goddess") as of Drow of the Underdark, then she must have ascended to intermediate status extremely recently. I'd write that off as a retcon, but in Dragons of Faerun they accepted that the Draconomicon's identification of Bahamut and Tiamat as racial paragons rather than deities was accurate, and they ascended to lesser deity status since the assumed "present day" of that book - so this is probably true of Lolth as well. She must have rose to intermediate status since around the time of the Time of Troubles, and remained there for a relatively brief time before reaching greater status after the War of the Spider Queen.
The source that seems most concerned with distinguishing between Lolth and the tanar'ri lords is Expedition to the Demonweb Pits. While I think Shemeska's article actually bolsters the argument that Lolth is still a demon, Expedition does not. It never refers to her by that word, and portrays the demons as resenting her divine status - though I'm not sure if this is because they would like to become divine as well or because they simply hate deities.
The most interesting thing I found in EttDP was the little detail concerning Pale Night within Lolth's deific domain/layer of the Abyss. She openly disregards the normal level of control that a deity has over its domain, or an Abyssal Lord has over a layer of the Abyss. She acts as if Lolth's power is meaningless so far as it concerns her. I adored that. But I rather adore Pale Night.
As for Lolth on Toril (I kindly ignore the rest of the non-FR Planescape stuff), she started off as lesser power of the Seldarine, as of Demihuman Deities. She probably never got any higher there before being cast out of Arvandor et al. That "war" happened in - 30,000 D.R., by - 18,000 D.R. she was listed as a goddess again, after quickly conquering a "considerable proportion" of that plane and subjugation both Kiaransalee and Ghaunadaur. Not many Abyssal Lords of the demon ilk managed that in the aeons past and present. As it stands, she regained her divinity to turning mortal worshippers (of various worlds) into her faith, in our regard, the dark elves / drow of Toril. Ever since she became involved with the Realms again, she's probably one of the most powerful of all intermediate gods, always lingering just below greater power status. The latter she finally gained with the ritual described in the WotSQ series, creating her own plane along the way. So for someone working on her own (plots), she is quite a remarkable divine success story.
As for Pale Night, she (and Rhyxali) rocks indeed. Of course, the Expedition to the Demoneweb Pits campaign is core material too, only some remarks in the monster entries link the latter to Eberron or the Realms.
As for Pale Night, she (and Rhyxali) rocks indeed.
I agree with you on that particular bit. ;)
So, Lolth of FR is also Lolth of core... and Oerth... etc. Same for Corellon and any others that are multi-spheric.
That seems to be the nail on the coffin, then. She is a demon and a goddess in every sphere.
Odd... I just saw, in F&P's, a side bar on pg 40 (about Lolth, oddly enough, but pertaining to all deities that appear in more then one world) that, even if stats are not exactly the same, they are the same beings.
So, Lolth of FR is also Lolth of core... and Oerth... etc. Same for Corellon and any others that are multi-spheric.
That seems to be the nail on the coffin, then. She is a demon and a goddess in every sphere.
Only that if Lolth or Kiaransalee bites the bullet in the Realms, they do not anywhere else. That is still AD&D lore, you know. Why do they use the same statblocks and info in e.g. F&P and Deities & Demigods? Because it is simple! For it simply does not matter to a Greyhawk player what the FR Lolth looks like and vice versa. These Core Books are tools for the DMs and they can plug what they need out of those as they see fit for their world, whether that is Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Faerûn or something homebrew. Thus any "can't-be-asked" DM will just take the Core Lolth or the FR Lolth and use them in his/her own world. For not everyone will buy a setting book like F&P, but a non-specific Core book like the MotP. Much like this, the various prestige classes in the Complete series are also tools which can be used in any D&D setting (e.g. the formerly Black Flame Zealots of Kossuth were brought into Core Complete Divine with just a reference to where they actually came from (Unapproachable East). By then, of course, Greyhawk was still the non-supported Core D&D setting, hence all the Greyhawk deities in the PHB, Manual of the Planes, or Deities & Demigods. Lolth and all other, previously (AD&D) "multi-spheric" deities received their very own FR write-up and history. They are not "just" all the same deities simply because they go by the same names.
But a look into the Players' Guide to Faerûn (p. 139, first sentence) will solve that issue anyway.
But a look into the Players' Guide to Faerûn (p. 139, first sentence) will solve that issue anyway.
1) This has nothing to do with the gods being one and the same, it talks about the cosmology (IE layout of the planes).
lol, you should check your sources better.
2)The sidebar I mentioned is F&P's, which is 3e, not AD&D.
The first edition Manual of the Planes, page 102, said: "Demon lords and princes are considered Lesser Powers in their home planes." This implies, howeer, they're not considered Lesser Powers elsewhere (or, at least, not always).
Thank you for that answer - I understand now why I missed it. the MoP was the only 1e source I passed-up back then.
VERY intersting, and enlightening, and USEFUL...
Applying that to what others have said in the last few posts (and what has been established since 2e anyway, thanks to the inter-connectivity), its easy to see how a deity will enter into a sphere as a demi or lesser power, and then try to 'grow' it's following and power-base (and portfolio).
This would lead to some god's meteoric rise, while others are just a 'flash-in-the-pan'. They either make it, or they don't, and a lot of them (like poor ol' Dionysius) wind-up as demi-powers (Exarchs) on some worlds, beholden to other powers just to 'stay alive'.
So a god's relative power is dependent upon what sphere/plane they are in, hmmm?
That works so well with how I work religion in my games - I use spheres of influence for god's and priestly levels, so that priests can be more powerful within a god's holy site (+1-3 levels), or less-powerful in regions where their deity holds no sway.
It also works beautifully with post-ToT FR lore. A deity's power is supposed to be based on their followers (numbers, devoutness, activity, etc..), and Ao reinforced this 'universal law' upon the Torillian Gods (who appear to have 'run amok' for quite some time). All Ao did was put the leash back on them, like it was supposed to be.
Ergo, when applying a 'deific level' (DR) to any god, one must understand that that is a generalization to their power-level in the main campaign area, and does not apply outside of the plane/sphere, and may not even apply outside of the continent the character is from. DR is a reference point - nothing more. It's up to the DM to decide what level a god is at within his campaign, and where.
As it should be.
Just to point out that the instance where Drizzt "summoned" Errtu happened when Errtuu was already on the material plane. Don't know if that makes a difference to this debate ornot.
There you go with your Drizzit (snicker) crush again.
;)
:P
On the same note, Bruenor would never had any chance (going by 3E rules) to craft this throwing returning +X hammer of Wulfgar.
Then that's a flaw in the rules, I think. The rules ought to serve the story, not the other way around - and the rules keep changing, anyway. He could have done it using the dwarven item creation rules in the BECMI D&D Dwarves of Rockhome gazetteer.
So a god's relative power is dependent upon what sphere/plane they are in, hmmm?
Yes. Loviatar is a demipower on most worlds, but a lesser power on Toril, and Tyr is an intermediate power on most worlds, but a greater power on Toril (before the Spellplague), and Kiaransalee is still a demipower on Oerth, but made lesser goddess on Toril before being erased.
But I think that particular reference meant that demon lords and princes had the abilities of a lesser god while in the realms they control on the Abyss, and lost them if they moved off plane.
There you go with your Drizzit (snicker) crush again.
;)
:P
I'm getting crap from a SHAR worshipper. INCONCIEVABLE! 
:P
Then that's a flaw in the rules, I think. The rules ought to serve the story, not the other way around - and the rules keep changing, anyway. He could have done it using the dwarven item creation rules in the BECMI D&D Dwarves of Rockhome gazetteer.
Actually, I thought this too, buuuut...
Someone pointed me to 3e rules (which I can't remember or find ATM) that would allow Bruenor to create such a weapon..
However, he wouldn't be able to pass it onto someone else - I think it was called a 'Bonded Weapon', or some-such, and only the maker could weild it.
So yeah, Bruenor could have made Aegis fang, but Wulfgar would not have had use of it's powers.
I wish I could remember where the heck those rules were.
Psst I think we're de-railing this thread a little(I'm guilty a little)
Nice catch to the reference MT.
To chime in or the debate about Lolth a little
After doing a little more research and looking over posts here I'm altering a previous posts(What a well spring of info these threads are.
Well Done 
BTW).Lolth it seems can be classifed as three different beings/races
1.Elf(if this isn't true my bad, It was posted here without any contradiction that I saw)
2. Goddess(A well stated canon fact)
3. Demon( Also a well stated canon fact)
So "Technically" she can be put on this list if LK's intent was to cover all editions.
I would like to recommend that a thread be created outside of this one to further debate this topic and leave this one to the listing of demons. I am not trying to step on anyones toes or offend anyone here.
1) This has nothing to do with the gods being one and the same, it talks about the cosmology (IE layout of the planes).
lol, you should check your sources better.
2)The sidebar I mentioned is F&P's, which is 3e, not AD&D.
*lol*-ing at someone does not actually make for good debating, especially since you apparently miss the point of that sentence in the PGtF. The cosmology of the FR is set apart from that of other D&D settings and since Lolth in the FR belongs to this FR cosmology, she too is set apart from the Lolth in other settings. Which I explained in my last post.
As for F&P, I know that this is the case and I was actually referring to my line about deities being killed in one setting's cosmology and the relevance to this on other settings with name-sake deities. That is AD&D lore and has been taken over to D&D 3E too. Thus, as I wrote, killing Kiaransalee in the Realms has no impact on Kiaransalee/Kiaransali in Greyhawk (where she also exists/-ed since Drow of the Underdark garbled the whole drow pantheon up too). Likewise, killing Lolth in Greyhawk (some strange novel did this to her (or her avatar) has no impact to the FR Lolth.
Anyway, this looks more like baiting than actual debating now.
*lol*-ing at someone does not actually make for good debating, especially since you apparently miss the point of that sentence in the PGtF. The cosmology of the FR is set apart from that of other D&D settings and since Lolth in the FR belongs to this FR cosmology, she too is set apart from the Lolth in other settings. Which I explained in my last post.
This is wrong. It was funny, because you quoted something that has NOTHING to do with the gods.
You should read it again, it is only talking about the layout of the planes...
As for F&P, I know that this is the case and I was actually referring to my line about deities being killed in one setting's cosmology and the relevance to this on other settings with name-sake deities. That is AD&D lore and has been taken over to D&D 3E too. Thus, as I wrote, killing Kiaransalee in the Realms has no impact on Kiaransalee/Kiaransali in Greyhawk (where she also exists/-ed since Drow of the Underdark garbled the whole drow pantheon up too). Likewise, killing Lolth in Greyhawk (some strange novel did this to her (or her avatar) has no impact to the FR Lolth.
I liken it to demons and devils, when they die on the prime, they are banished from the mortal would for awhile. Same with gods... if they die in a sphere, they get banned.
Anyway, this looks more like baiting than actual debating now.
So if someone is correct and you're not willing to concede the point, it's baiting? Nice...
Look it up. I, unlike you, am not misinterpreting the book I quoted. Corellon, Lolth, etc, from FR is the same as from GH. They are not built the same, they do not have the same levels of power, but it is the same being.
Look it up. I, unlike you, am not misinterpreting the book I quoted. Corellon, Lolth, etc, from FR is the same as from GH. They are not built the same, they do not have the same levels of power, but it is the same being.
Well, actually, this depends on one's ability (or inability, if you prefer) to see the various, say, Lolths, who might have a different divine rank, different portfolios, domains, and different appearances or even attitudes, as one and the same being, effectively. The same discussion was about 4e's Bane and FR's Bane, who, unlike the previous edition's Corellons, Lolths, Tyrs and so on, share scarcely anything at all. So as far as I'm concerend I tend to view the Lolths as one multi-spherical deity and although the various differences are obvious, I can clearly see the common ground between them.
Here is a bit of it;
Though her history differs between the two settings, she remains very much the same deity.
It talks about Lolth specifically, but mentions that this applies to all deities that are multi-spheric.
How much clearer does it have to be?
Well, actually, this depends on one's ability (or inability, if you prefer) to see the various, say, Lolths, who might have a different divine rank, different portfolios, domains, and different appearances or even attitudes, as one and the same being, effectively. The same discussion was about 4e's Bane and FR's Bane, who, unlike the previous edition's Corellons, Lolths, Tyrs and so on, share scarcely anything at all. So as far as I'm concerend I tend to view the Lolths as one multi-spherical deity and although the various differences are obvious, I can clearly see the common ground between them.
Right, I see them as what they are at their core, then what they are as needed for a particular area.
Lolth is Lolth, no matter where she is. That said, she differs as need demands for each sphere. Regardless, she is, at her core, a goddess AND demon.
This is wrong. It was funny, because you quoted something that has NOTHING to do with the gods.
IMHO, gods belong to the cosmology, as I pointed out.
You should read it again, it is only talking about the layout of the planes...
To which the deities belong, since they rule or inhabit these planes in the various settings.
I liken it to demons and devils, when they die on the prime, they are banished from the mortal would for awhile. Same with gods... if they die in a sphere, they get banned.
No, they are not banned but their bodies float in the Astral Plane. If there are worshippers or "helpers" (ToT) about, they can easily be resurrected, as can their faiths. Matter of factly, you can even get spells from a supposedly "dead" deity via the Servant of the Fallen feat (LEtF), by which you access the still existing divine essence of even a dead deity.
So if someone is correct and you're not willing to concede the point, it's baiting? Nice...
No, and another baiting. You think you are correct and tell me I am not. While picking out stuff which proves your point and kindly ignore material that weakens yours. At least that is how it looks to me. But we won't start discussing the discussion, will we?
Anyway, that F&P sidebars is primarily explaining differences or likenesses between the listings of deities in the various books, i.e. F&P and Deities & Demigods. In Lolth's case, the stats do not differ (they need not to, as I said), just some Realms-specific domains are thrown in there. Still both books are essentially old material, or rather have been updated in lore and canon by more recents books. Expedition to the Demonweb Pits is full of Lolth-related stuff (and again, only the monster entries give you hints of their usage in Faerûn), as is the Fiendish Codex I (which also describes Lolth's plane (and no link to the FR whatsoever)) and even more so Drow of the Underdark. The latter book does not mention her demon status of old Core / Greyhawk material at all, BTW, nor does it relate this Lolth and the drow to the Realms either (just the monster (i.e. tool) statblocks). She ain't even called Demon Queen any longer, but still resides in the Abyss, which the FR Lolth does not. Different cosmology, different Lolths - at least for this FR debate. IMHO.
Look it up. I, unlike you, am not misinterpreting the book I quoted. Corellon, Lolth, etc, from FR is the same as from GH. They are not built the same, they do not have the same levels of power, but it is the same being.
Statswise.
...
I'm not going to waste my time derailing this thread with you anymore. Go to the Lolth thread and you'll find more sources I found that prove my point. All of them are 3e-4e.
I'm not going to waste my time derailing this thread with you anymore. Go to the Lolth thread and you'll find more sources I found that prove my point. All of them are 3e-4e.
See ... I just made my Will save. Of course, LK can include in his list whomever he wants or deems fine by his judgement.
Beings like Lolth are 'unknown variables' in the greater scheme of things, and don't neccessarily fit into any one category.
Ergo, weather she is or isn't a demon is a matter of how mortals choose to view her, and applying that to FR as a game-setting, obviously has more then one answer depending on the region in question and the decisions of the DM.
This is why I stick to my view that 'higher beings' (those from planes other then the Prime) are really just composed of energy, and choose what forms they take, or even what form individuals see them as (so a god could appear as a Human to one person, and as a Gnome to the Gnome standing next to him).
Unless a deity is actively projecting an image, mortals see the divine in whatever form the expect to see them in. If you think of Lolth as a Demon, then you see her thusly. Its all about perception at that point - everything else is just the artifical structure that D&D tries to impose on the universe.
Alu-fiend
Dungeon of Death
The Dungeon of Death (AD&D adventure)
Estellia
Alu-fiend
Dungeon of Death
The Dungeon of Death (AD&D adventure)
Viscaris
Nabassu
Dungeon of Death
The Dungeon of Death (AD&D adventure)
Belhifet
Balor
Banished to the Abyss
Icewind Dale
Isair & Madae
Demonfey twins
Slain
Icewind Dale II
owwww and Yxunomei is a Marilith